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MacRumors
Jan 1, 2004, 01:54 PM
CNN reports (http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/biztech/01/01/apple.suit.reut/index.html) on user complaints and two potential class action suits from iBook and iPod owners.

Various users apparently have reported (http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?14@@.ee6ba30) recurrent problems with their iBook displays and video output, and according to the article, the problems stem from faulty motherboards.

iPod complaints stem from the claim that "Apple's warranty does not run long enough to cover problems with the player's battery." Apple presently offers a $99 battery replacement program for users with battery problems out of warranty.

Trekkie
Jan 1, 2004, 02:00 PM
Can't comment on the iBook problems but I've got a second generation 20GB iPod I bought in August of 2002.

Am I a minority here in that mine is working great?

Maybe it's because since I was a kid it was drilled into me that I was to run rechargable batteries into the ground before plugging them back in. I remember this mantre from my father when I was like in jr. high and got my first Sony Walkman and bought some GE Rechargable NiCD batteries in the mid 80s.

Maybe that's just me. Because mine works fine

pyrotoaster
Jan 1, 2004, 02:01 PM
I don't know about the iBook problem, but the iPod complaints are pointless (IMHO). I had a G1 5 GB iPod, and it's battery completely quit after about 10 months. I took it to an Apple Store Genius Bar and walked out an hour later with a brand new iPod. No complaints from me.

youngr40
Jan 1, 2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Trekkie
Can't comment on the iBook problems but I've got a second generation 20GB iPod I bought in August of 2002.

Am I a minority here in that mine is working great?


Got a 5Gb Generation 1 - no worries here, still onlyu sed 2Gb of space and the battery is okay.

MacBoy88
Jan 1, 2004, 02:10 PM
My iBook has a logic board problem. I am part of the class action. I love my iBook, but it aint even a year old!

Greenlightboi
Jan 1, 2004, 02:11 PM
I had a G2 10 GB, and in 11 months the thing died on me. I'm happy that Apple has sent me a new one, but it is going up for sale on ebay.... cause in another 11 months, and 11 months after that... I don't want to keep replacing batteries!

snofseth
Jan 1, 2004, 02:11 PM
for Ipod just buy from compusa and get their warrenty at like $40 if it has any problems or you just want a new one you can take it back and they will give you a new one the only catch is each time for every ipod you have to get they warrenty, but it is worth it. I've had 4 in 8 months

TMay
Jan 1, 2004, 02:11 PM
Still, the iBook problem meets the criteria for a class action suit.

The iPod issue does not. Just because people don't understand the issues with batteries, doesn't mean that Apple has to warrant the iPod indefinitely. That being said, Apple may have been a bit slow in providing an official policy for battery replacement. They have now. End of story.

rdowns
Jan 1, 2004, 02:12 PM
I've read abouth these potential class action suits. The only ones who will make out are the lawyers.

If the iBook MB is faulty, Apple deserves to get sued if they've not stepped up to the plate.

As for the iPod, all I can say are the people are a bunch of asses. Warranty not long enough? Almost all electronics carry a one year warranty.

Battery problems? Don't seem to be widespread but definitely a loud bunch who are affected. Apple finally stepped up to the plate with a battery replacement program and there is a less expensive DIY alternative.

Is it me or does Apple get slammed much more than their much larger competitors?

whfsdude
Jan 1, 2004, 02:17 PM
The iPod is fine, mine is going 2yrs strong.

Now as for the iBook. I've had 4 logic boards but you have probably heard me bitch about that before. :D

Sun Baked
Jan 1, 2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by rdowns
As for the iPod, all I can say are the people are a bunch of asses. Warranty not long enough? Almost all electronics carry a one year warranty.Plus Apple is offering the battery replacement program, all Apple has to do it make the offer -- it doesn't have to be cheap and/or affordable to satisfy the court.

Look back at the upgradeable machine class action lawsuit, the upgrade to satisfy the court was very expensve.

I think the doof is mad because he can't go down to Battery Shaq and get a set of batteries for cheap.

Then look at the cell phone market's battery problem, their cheap/fake battery problem is causing severe burns an injuries to cheapskates.

CmdrLaForge
Jan 1, 2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by whfsdude
The iPod is fine, mine is going 2yrs strong.

Now as for the iBook. I've had 4 logic boards but you have probably heard me bitch about that before. :D

No - I don't. Where is the thread ?

I have a G3 iBook 900MHz. No problems so far. Can anyone explain what the problems exactly are and after which time of use they happen ?

Thanks and cheers

latergator116
Jan 1, 2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by pyrotoaster
I don't know about the iBook problem, but the iPod complaints are pointless (IMHO). I had a G1 5 GB iPod, and it's battery completely quit after about 10 months. I took it to an Apple Store Genius Bar and walked out an hour later with a brand new iPod. No complaints from me.

Yes, but wouldn't you be pissed if your battery died 3 months later?

Flowbee
Jan 1, 2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by MacBoy88
My iBook has a logic board problem. I am part of the class action. I love my iBook, but it aint even a year old!

Then why not just have it repaired under warranty? I guess lawsuits are more exciting.

geerlingguy
Jan 1, 2004, 02:31 PM
If you've taken the risk of purchasing an iBook or other laptop, you should get insurance (in the form of AppleCare). I have an iBook G4, just purchased yesterday, and I will get AppleCare for three years of support so that if there are any problems, I will get a replacement part from Apple.

I may be misunderstanding the iBook users' claims, but I think most just want to get some money for their irresponsibility... :rolleyes:

If I am wrong, let me know.

P.S. I LOVE the iBook!!! according to Altivec Fractal Carbon, this baby is 4 times as fast as my previous G4/400 Gigabit!!! (I have the 933 Mhz iBook G4)

Grimace
Jan 1, 2004, 02:38 PM
calling it irresponsible may not be the wisest wording. A faulty product deserves a recall/repair if the vendor finds out about it. Knowledge of the motherboard problems (crapping out after a year is a BIG problem) is grounds enough for Apple to be sued. No one should be forced into buying Apple care. That is designed to cover incidental complications, not proscribed problems.

latergator116
Jan 1, 2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by geerlingguy
If you've taken the risk of purchasing an iBook or other laptop, you should get insurance (in the form of AppleCare). I have an iBook G4, just purchased yesterday, and I will get AppleCare for three years of support so that if there are any problems, I will get a replacement part from Apple.

I may be misunderstanding the iBook users' claims, but I think most just want to get some money for their irresponsibility... :rolleyes:

If I am wrong, let me know.

P.S. I LOVE the iBook!!! according to Altivec Fractal Carbon, this baby is 4 times as fast as my previous G4/400 Gigabit!!! (I have the 933 Mhz iBook G4)

You shouldn't have to spend extra money to warrant yourself from an OBVIOUS defect. Some people have the warranty, but they are just tired of sending it back repeated amounts of times to get repaired.

earlopogous
Jan 1, 2004, 02:46 PM
Thank GOD! my iBook just died and would have been out of warranty if i hadnt bought AppleCare. i would have been one mad person, if it had dies after the warranty.

ITR 81
Jan 1, 2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Flowbee
Then why not just have it repaired under warranty? I guess lawsuits are more exciting.

Yeah I figure a good portion of the iBook people are ones that just had one issue and want to sue because of it even though they are under a yr old.

My friends sister just recently got a iBook and it was 3 month old used demo from CompUSA and it works fine.

All these class action lawsuits do is make the lawyers richer and everyone part of the lawsuit gets about $20 bucks...

:rolleyes:

latergator116
Jan 1, 2004, 02:56 PM
What I hope apple will do is set up some kind of program (extend warranty, replace a motherboard if its out of warranty,etc.). I don't really care to get 20 bucks (probably less) from some stupid lawsuit. Hopefully apple will now get off their lazy asses. :rolleyes:

Grimace
Jan 1, 2004, 02:59 PM
Class-action law suits are a LOT harder to win so I don't think iBook users should get too excited. Many times, there has to be insider/executive knowledge of the defect and written documents saying something to the effect of "well, too bad for them - we're not changing our product." Think Big Tobacco class-action cases - those have dragged on for decades with a very obvious malintent from the tobacco companies.

Daveman Deluxe
Jan 1, 2004, 03:02 PM
IMO, Apple should come out and say something along the lines of, "We realize that there is a logic board issue. If you've sent it in once before on a logic board issue and an AppleCare technician determine you're having the same issue again, we'll send you a new/refurbished unit."

Apple needs to get to work on the problem. According to an article I read (I haven't got the link) a guy with considerable technical savvy and tools did some investigation and found that frayed RF shielding was shorting out against the body of the iBook. The display issue is borne from the hole that the display cables run through being too small and pinching the cables as the screen is moved. Even if the cables don't get pinched, they are not of sufficient thickness to withstand the stress of being twisted around like they are. As a result, insulation can crack and the wires short out.

It sounds like a couple of minor design/component decisions (make the display conduit wider, use heavier wire) would end these problems.

papersushi
Jan 1, 2004, 03:06 PM
Look, happy customers usually don't post on the web site to compalin. Comparing the small number of people complaining and the large number of total units sold, it's extremely small percentage.

On the other hand, battery is battery, base on the current battery technology, no matter what kind of battery you buy, battery does die and it does die quickly like a year depends on how do you use it.

If you have a digital camera, ask yourself if your built-in rechargable battery still holds the same charge like what it did a year ago(plus most digital camera users don't use them as often as most iPod users do).

kidA
Jan 1, 2004, 03:08 PM
the class action suit with the ibook has nothing to do with user responsibility. no one is going to get any money out of it either except the lawyers, but that's not the point anyway. anyone who calls the people involved dumb or greedy or irresponsible does not understand. the purpose of the lawsuit is simply to get apple to acknowledge and fix a known defect in the product.
apple is not a stupid company. they are smart enough to know that something is wrong with the dual-usb ibooks--whether it's the logic board itself or the power supply damaging the logic board--and apple has probably researched it and knows exactly what it is. they've probably also decided that it's cheaper for them to just fix each one as it comes in than to redesign the ibook or take some other course. (granted there are a lot, but these are massively popular computers, the percentage is probably pretty small). a class action suit is not a way to get money or anything, it is just a way to get apple to officially recognize the problem and take the necessary steps to fix it--use a new logic board, redesign the power supply, whatever--so that we won't have to deal with the problem in the future. ibook users have complained enough to apple already, and apple has done nothing. it's time to take new action, and a class action law suit is the next step.

eromitlab
Jan 1, 2004, 03:10 PM
I have both products... iPod is great on battery (then again, I know to run the battery down to nothing and only then recharge and not leave it on the dock when not using it).

My iBook has also been problem free... other than a fried logic board (and it was only a couple months old, mind you) which Apple happily replaced in about 4 days... do people even realize that AppleCare covers every machine for one year after the date of purchase, then the additional coverage takes over after that (if you're smart enough to buy it).

Why is it that news organisations seem to only report news on Apple when it's bad or not showing of how much better the company and the products are than other companies *coughDellcough*? I mean, MSNBC is pretty much anti-mac now (and no big surprise there)... how many other companies are going to shoot themselves in the foot by cutting out mac users and portraying Apple in a negative light?

me_94501
Jan 1, 2004, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by CmdrLaForge
No - I don't. Where is the thread ?

I have a G3 iBook 900MHz. No problems so far. Can anyone explain what the problems exactly are and after which time of use they happen ?

Thanks and cheers

The symtoms usually are made up of a flickering/distorted screen and system freezes that go along with it. For some, the screen might go out completely. There are other problems and symptoms that can result from a faultu logic board, but this is the most common. It looks something like this (http://ibdf.mine.nu/)

It can happen at any time.

My iBook G3/900 is in the shop for repairs for the second time since October; both were logic board problems.

I've had the petition and class-action site links in my sig for a couple weeks now, and yes, I'm signed up as part of the class action suit.

me_94501
Jan 1, 2004, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by geerlingguy
If you've taken the risk of purchasing an iBook or other laptop, you should get insurance (in the form of AppleCare). I have an iBook G4, just purchased yesterday, and I will get AppleCare for three years of support so that if there are any problems, I will get a replacement part from Apple.

I may be misunderstanding the iBook users' claims, but I think most just want to get some money for their irresponsibility... :rolleyes:

If I am wrong, let me know.

P.S. I LOVE the iBook!!! according to Altivec Fractal Carbon, this baby is 4 times as fast as my previous G4/400 Gigabit!!! (I have the 933 Mhz iBook G4)

My iBook was never dropped, beaten, or otherwise mangled. I outfitted my backpack with foam lining to prevent damage to my iBook when i carry it around. I warned everyone who handled it not to pick it up by the left side where the logic board is. The reason why I signed up with the class action suit was not to get money. I can care less about the cash (I'd end up with a measly amount anyway!) I signed up simply to call attention to this issue and get Apple to acknowledge it.

I just hope that with this publicity Apple will admiot the problem and the class action suit will not have to go forward.

Pants
Jan 1, 2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by carletonmusic
calling it irresponsible may not be the wisest wording. A faulty product deserves a recall/repair if the vendor finds out about it. Knowledge of the motherboard problems (crapping out after a year is a BIG problem) is grounds enough for Apple to be sued. No one should be forced into buying Apple care. That is designed to cover incidental complications, not proscribed problems.


wise words.

I have a two month old Al 15" powerbook, and the screen is, quite frankly, awful. It was delivered with 2 dead pixels, and is now up to 4, but worse has 6 very prominant white spots. for a £2+K machine, i find it completely unacceptable. yes, I do have apple care, but this machine is much needed for work. Sending it off to apple to be fixed (when they admit that there isn't a guaranteed 'fix') always takes weeks, if not months, judging from prior experience of apple europe.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is all these anecdotal issues - pb's, ibooks and ipods - suggest a drop in general quality control. Apple care should not be a 'must' when you buy something, merely an optional extra, and it certainly shouldn't be used by apple as a way of fixing issues post release. It may also be possible to get your ipod fixed at an apple store, but remember that outside the US apple stores are as rare as, well, rocking-horse poo! ;)

GregGomer
Jan 1, 2004, 03:37 PM
For those who are marginalizing the iBook issue, I'm glad that you are happy with your apple equipment, and haven't had to experience the problem. I agree, that generally class action suits are pretty lame, and don't accomplish much. I also think that as an iPod owner, the iPod suit is lame, you don't sue your phone company cause you were the a battery on your cell phone out quick. As well, I felt the class action suits for older G3 owners who didn't have full OS X support was pretty lame too. I qualified for both, but haven't signed up for either because it was simply lame.

Anyhoo, as for the iBook though.... this is real. And yah, you don't hear a lot of people mouthing off on the forum, but do a search on the web, and you'll find a ton of people have had the problem. I own two ibooks. One of which is a desk model, it really never moves. To say I bring the probelm on myself, well would be naive. As I pamper that computer like crazy because it is a laptop. Anyhoo, shortly after the warrantee period on both units, the screen began to show problems like those described above. Pretty lame really. I wasn't mad, didn't vent, just wrote it down to really bad luck and moved on, got a new laptop etc etc. However, after venturing out to learn if there was some loose wire or something I could fix, I realized by doing searches just how many ibooks have failed. A crazy high number. All with the same description of problems. My nicer of the two, it even gives me a nice little electric shock about once a day just from touching the bottom of the case. That says to me that something surely isn't write.

Anyhoo the problem is very real, and wide spread, of course it doesn't effect everyone or Apple would have done something by now. But it effects enough people Apple should surely do something about it. When the eMacs had a large screen failure rate, Apple was replacing Motherboards and many many units. I would say from our Mac shop we had at least 1/3 of the units come back. Eventually they tagged the problem as cable on the motherboard, and replaced those as well. But never did offer a standard recall. Which to me seems odd. If you know there is an issue that will cause most machines to fail... why not let your customers know, and why not fix it.

With the iBook, I'm most amazed that still current models are having the problem. It's as if Apple still hasn't even recognized that it is an issue, and from what I gather, it's an easy one to fix, better cables, a bigger whole, and away you go.

Anyhoo, even though I dislike class action suits, I'm looking to sign this one. As it just doesn't seem right to let it slip. As well, one of the laptops was sent in when it had some problems. Apple only fixed one of the two issues. Leaving the screen issue unresolved, only to later go out completely. Anyhoo, sadly to say, as someone who has qualified for any and all Apple Class action suites as of late. And as someone who has basically laughed at the others. I think this once, the suite might have some merit. And I am thinkgin hard about siging on.

Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

ITR 81
Jan 1, 2004, 03:37 PM
Anyone who signed on any of these lawsuits is looking to get money. If that was the case then why sue them for money then?? Because you could just sue and get them to just fix it.

According our local Apple Rep. Apple already knows about the issue and is working toward a solution. He said the bad press will probably kill all sales for the rest of the yr.

Maybe PC users predictions that Apple won't live beyond 05' are now coming true..

I was watching the news and now I've seen two spots that have said DON'T BUY APPLE because they break and their batteries don't last.

Maybe IBM will buy out Apple.

restiffbard
Jan 1, 2004, 03:39 PM
I have a iBook 12.1 800 combo and a 3G 30 Gig iPod. No problems with them.

As far as I can tell they're built like tanks.

I've dropped my iPod in a puddle twice from about waist height. The iBook hasn't taken any serious tumbles but I did let a MCSE touch it once (he has since converted). But other than that never a problem and they work great.

swmooretiger
Jan 1, 2004, 03:43 PM
I agree with previous posters about the ipods, there's a program now, deal with it. As for the ibooks, sure, Apple really should do something to help out, but no one on these forums should be blasting Apple about an "obvious" design flaw. Do you really think they had a final design ibook sitting around for a year before they sold them just to find out if it has some kind of long term problem? i doubt it. if you're an engineer then you might better understand how things like this just happen, you can't account for EVERYTHING. I mean, apple's great, but they aren't God. Anyways, good luck with those problems, I hope people who have been misfortunate get something in return, I know I'd be pissed if it happened to me.

s.eth
Jan 1, 2004, 03:45 PM
From what I have heard about Apple's repair policy it goes like this:

They will fix your computer 3 times. If it still needs to be repaired after a 3rd time, they will send you a brand new model. Just ask for it. So those of you who have G3 iBooks and have had your logic board replaced 3 times, you can get a G4.

whfsdude
Jan 1, 2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by CmdrLaForge
Can anyone explain what the problems exactly are and after which time of use they happen ?

1x - Black screen
2x - Vertical stripes/Crazy colors

s.eth
Jan 1, 2004, 03:52 PM
to clarify myself - that is if the computer is under warranty. otherwise, i dunno what their policy is.
when i bought my mac, i bought the applecare with it. expensive, yes. but then again so are repairs and calling tech support.

latergator116
Jan 1, 2004, 04:04 PM
Anyone who signed on any of these lawsuits is looking to get money. If that was the case then why sue them for money then?? Because you could just sue and get them to just fix it.


Not necesatrily. Most people are signing it just to get recignition from apple (i.e. get apple to fix the problem). I doubt anyone really cares about the very small amount of money.

me_94501
Jan 1, 2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Anyone who signed on any of these lawsuits is looking to get money. If that was the case then why sue them for money then?? Because you could just sue and get them to just fix it.

According our local Apple Rep. Apple already knows about the issue and is working toward a solution. He said the bad press will probably kill all sales for the rest of the yr.

Maybe PC users predictions that Apple won't live beyond 05' are now coming true..

I was watching the news and now I've seen two spots that have said DON'T BUY APPLE because they break and their batteries don't last.

Maybe IBM will buy out Apple.
I'm not part of this suit for the money. I just want this problem fixed. The sum one would get from a class-action suit is usually way too puny. The lawyers are the only ones who get rich. As for the iPod suit, that's just plain absurd. It is the nature of batteries to die. Logic boards, however, shouldn't have to be replaced every few months.

When i called Apple and asked if there were any known issues with the iBook G3, the tech said; "none that i know of." This was just last week. As for those who say "Don't buy Apples...because they break", the iBook problem so far is not affecting the iBook G4s (though it may still be too early to tell), since they use a different logic board design. Fortunately the guy I talked to at the Apple Store was very helpful. All in all, I'm still pleased by Apple's customer service.

RE the "Apple won't live beyond 2005": Jeez, it seems like people have been saying that for years! :)

theNonsuch
Jan 1, 2004, 04:17 PM
I have both (a dual USB iBook and 2nd gen iPod, 10G) and I agree that the iPod battery problem is really a non-issue. The guy received a stupid answer from customer service ("buy a new one"), but you sometimes get lemons, and everyone knows that things can often go sour just after the warranty goes out.

To be honest, the whole iPod battery thing sounds like two guys trying (and succeeding wildly) to get publicity for themselves.

I've had my Ipod now for almost two years, and the battery is still going strong. I know about a dozen people with ipods (a mix of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen) and they're all just fine, too... so I really do think that this isn't much of an issue. But, the media likes to glom onto stories, right?

The ibook issue, while not affecting me, I can understand. I've seen a bunch of complaints about this long before the ibook petitions started sprouting up. It does sound like a legitimate issue, and something that Apple should be dealing with.

That said, I really do question the tactics of the blackcider.com group. I guess this stems from my belief that people who run with the adage "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" often are just stirring up crap for the sake of it. Crashing Macworld and chanting about how ****ty Apple has treated you sounds infantile, melodramatic, and over-reactionary.

There are legitimate ways to address your legitimate complaints about a particualr company; making a pulbiic mockery of yourself and your issues is just a waste of energy, belittles your actual problem, and ruins what should be fun for thousands of others.

billyboy
Jan 1, 2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by eromitlab


Why is it that news organisations seem to only report news on Apple when it's bad or not showing of how much better the company and the products are than other companies *coughDellcough*? I mean, MSNBC is pretty much anti-mac now (and no big surprise there)... how many other companies are going to shoot themselves in the foot by cutting out mac users and portraying Apple in a negative light?

To be fair, Apple have enormous positive and free press coverage. You'd think from following the media in Britain that there was only one MP3 player in the world.

The iPod battery issue is surely resolved by Apple, so thats a waste of a suit.

And a law suit does seem strange for those people whose iBooks have died three times in a year or three times within Apple Care, because it seems that Apple policy is to supply a new iBook. Obviously those who dont fall into that category are entitled to kick up a stink.

wPod
Jan 1, 2004, 04:19 PM
i have (er had) both. . .

iBook sent it in on a bad video card/logic board and was repaired under my first year of warenty (on top of many other problems i decided not to get applecare b/c i would rather spend the money on a new computer that WORKED instead of haaving to send it in every month or so) right after my 90 days of support was gone from the new repair the same video problem occured . . . so i trashed my iBook and got a 12"PB which has WORKED well (except for panther problems, but that is panther not the PB) to repair the iBook is $350ish (thats what apple support told me) if the suit goes through then maybe i can get it fixed for free!!!! anyone know where i can sign up to get in on the deal????

as for the iPod i have a G1 10GB iPod and use it every day for b/w 8-10 hours . . . have had no problems with the battery in almost 2 years of such use (er however long it has been since the 10GB came out) but i would be pretty mad if i put out for an iPod and my battery stopped working and i had no option of replacing it from a different company (cheaper) or at least a replacement battery i could by w/o sending it in for $99 . . .

so yeah. . . where can i get more info on the iBook stuff?

Wonder Boy
Jan 1, 2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by rdowns
Is it me or does Apple get slammed much more than their much larger competitors?

with 2% marketshare, they better take care of their customers. they should try to make that 2% as happy as possible. Mac is no longer the only alternative to windows.

ITR 81
Jan 1, 2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Wonder Boy
with 2% marketshare, they better take care of their customers. they should try to make that 2% as happy as possible. Mac is no longer the only alternative to windows.

Time to buy a PC?

iAdam
Jan 1, 2004, 04:43 PM
I have a 12 inch G4 iBook, are there any reports about this occuring on the G4, or did they redisgn them to prevent the issue?

CheekyGit
Jan 1, 2004, 04:48 PM
(being sarcastic here) *** SARCASM ALERT ***

1. Apple should send a refund for the total cost of each defective iBook, iPod, PowerBook, etc.

2. After refunds have been submitted, refer them to Dell, Gateway, HP for more products that break down even more (even though I never hear of public lawsuits against them on their crappy products).

3. Then, discontinue those defective products lines, throw in the towel, and announce that thanks to those Mac users who complained about our products and threated Apple with lawsuits that we will close our doors forever.

Now I know number 3 will never happen. It's just my temper that gets heated up whenever I see the lawsuits against Apple sprawled all over the media.

Where are the lawsuits against Dell, Gateway, HP etc???? Huh? This is ridiculous. "Ooooo.... Apple did something bad. Let's suit them."

Don't give those whiny users and lawyers any press. It's pointless and a complete waste of time. Post more important news....anything except this. It's just boring the heck out of the rest of us.

"Caveat Emptor: Let the Buyer Beware"

latergator116
Jan 1, 2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by iAdam
I have a 12 inch G4 iBook, are there any reports about this occuring on the G4, or did they redisgn them to prevent the issue?

There haven't been any reports of this happening on any G4 iBook. And yes, with the addition of the G4, the motherboard is redesigned, so they probably fixed the motherboard problem.

latergator116
Jan 1, 2004, 04:54 PM
Dont't give them any press? Jeez... then apple would never fix the problem.:rolleyes:

Wonder Boy
Jan 1, 2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Time to buy a PC?

not for me, but if people are so fed up with apples faults, they have options.

thogs_cave
Jan 1, 2004, 05:00 PM
I own both a 900MHz (G3) iBook and an original 5g 1st-generation iPod. The iPod still works totally fine, and it keeps enough charge to go from New Mexico to New York on an airplane. It seems like a good design to me.

The iBook is less than a month old, having been purchased after the G4 ones came out and the G3's became very cheap (while still being new). It replaced my original iBook SE, and so far it's been amazingly good. I do have a habit of getting AppleCare for laptops, so I do feel protected that way.

paulypants
Jan 1, 2004, 05:13 PM
Time to buy a PC?

No thanks--no problems with any of my macs, every computer maker will have some problems arise from time to time, but thankfully apple's problems are dwarfed by the amount of lemons that come out of the likes of compaq, dell, gateway

mian
Jan 1, 2004, 05:21 PM
Apple has sold about 1.3 million ibooks over the last two years. It looks like there are about 1500 people who have signed the complaints on the two websites. Are there specific models that have the problem? I would think a design flaw would have a much greater failure rate.

LethalWolfe
Jan 1, 2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Wonder Boy
with 2% marketshare, they better take care of their customers. they should try to make that 2% as happy as possible. Mac is no longer the only alternative to windows.


What other options does the non-geek have besides Windows or OS X? Lindows?


Lethal

latergator116
Jan 1, 2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by mian
Apple has sold about 1.3 million ibooks over the last two years. It looks like there are about 1500 people who have signed the complaints on the two websites. Are there specific models that have the problem? I would think a design flaw would have a much greater failure rate.

Only the newer, Dual USB iBooks. None of the clamshell iBooks have the problem.

mian
Jan 1, 2004, 05:26 PM
How long has Apple been selling the dual usb ibooks?

latergator116
Jan 1, 2004, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
What other options does the non-geek have besides Windows or OS X? Lindows?


Lethal

Yellow dog linux has a very user friendly interface, and it is made for macs so all the buttons are pre-programed (i.e. volume, eject button)

buddha
Jan 1, 2004, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by carletonmusic
Class-action law suits are a LOT harder to win so I don't think iBook users should get too excited. Many times, there has to be insider/executive knowledge of the defect and written documents saying something to the effect of "well, too bad for them - we're not changing our product." Think Big Tobacco class-action cases - those have dragged on for decades with a very obvious malintent from the tobacco companies.

Hrm, class action status has nothing to do with the burdens of proof. The main purpose of class action is to consolidate resources and (for plaintiffs) to provide such potentially high liability as to make the defendants much more willing to settle than they would with individual plaintiffs.

latergator116
Jan 1, 2004, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by mian
How long has Apple been selling the dual usb ibooks?

Since may 2001.

me_94501
Jan 1, 2004, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
Only the newer, Dual USB iBooks. None of the clamshell iBooks have the problem.
So far, the iBook G4s seem to be unaffected.

latergator116
Jan 1, 2004, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by me_94501
So far, the iBook G4s seem to be unaffected.

Sorry, should have clarified. Only the Dual usb G3 iBooks.

Wonder Boy
Jan 1, 2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
What other options does the non-geek have besides Windows or OS X? Lindows?
Lethal

OK. youre right. non geeks pretty much only have linux systems. but my point was that there are other options.

mian
Jan 1, 2004, 05:41 PM
So the 1500 (assuming people only signed on to one not both of the web sites) signatures and approximately 1.3 million sold. I would expect alot more if it was a design flaw.

rdowns
Jan 1, 2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Wonder Boy
with 2% marketshare, they better take care of their customers. they should try to make that 2% as happy as possible. Mac is no longer the only alternative to windows.

My experience has been that Apple takes care of their customers better than ANY OTHER manufacturer. I was a reseller from 1988-1996 and Apple was far and away the best in taking care of customers even when warranties had expired. Every company has problematic designs but it seems Apple gets crucified for theirs while others don't.

As for Apple quality, my experience has been phenomenal. I've owned an SE, LC, IIsi, Quadra 700, PowerBook 3400, Performa 6400, iMac and iPod and I have never needed a repair on any of them. Add 2 LaserWriters to that list. I did have problems with an Apple 15" display and one call to them and it was replaced.

latergator116
Jan 1, 2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by mian
So the 1500 (assuming people only signed on to one not both of the web sites) signatures and approximately 1.3 million sold. I would expect alot more if it was a design flaw.

Im sure there are a good amount of people who HAVEN'T posted on either of those petitions.

mjtomlin
Jan 1, 2004, 05:54 PM
I have an original 5GB iPod, purchased a couple of months after it was introduced more than two years ago ... played it just the other day at work. It lasted the eight hours I was there and still had plenty of power left. I bet I could get at least 10 hours of play time out of it.

I also had a 500MHz Dual USB iBook. As of last summer, when I sold it, it was two years old and did start to develop the flickering screen issue and the hard drive died. I did not purchase AppleCare (meant to, but never got around to it), so I had to fix it myself. Wasn't that big of a deal, although taking the screen and the hinge apart was a little complicated. The flickering screen problem turned out to be a pinched wire in the hinge.

isd_glory
Jan 1, 2004, 05:59 PM
I bought a 800 MHz iBook in November 2002. Within the span of nine months, it was sent in for repair three times to replace a bad logic board and sometimes the wiring harness going to the display. About two months later, the tell-tale symptoms of imminent logic board failure started showing up again. Being a little fed up with repetitive failures, I took my problem to customer support, rather than trying my luck with an AppleCare repair again. Originally they were going to offer me a replacement iBook due to all the trouble I was experiencing. Having had my laptop fail on me so many times, I no longer felt comfortable relying on the current design of the iBook. So, after a bit of negotiation, I was eventually allowed to sent back my laptop permanantly in return for Apple store credit. In total, I was credited back what I paid for my iBook almost a year ago (excluding hardware upgrades such as an airport card and extra memory). Combined with a cashier's check for about $1300, I upgraded my way to a new 1.25 GHz powerbook.

While it was somewhat frustrating being without my iBook so many times, I am very happy that customer service gave me the upgrade option. Had I opted for a replacement, I'm sure my logic board would be on its way out again sometime soon.

SiliconAddict
Jan 1, 2004, 06:34 PM
I have two friends that have iBooks. One has been fine from day one. The other had his display die on him. Got it replaced. Then started to have hard drive problems. He called Apple support. They had him repair the permission and it seemed to fix the problem for all of 7 days. After that the hard drive itself started making noises. HE called back. The tech told him to reinstall the OS. I'm sorry but if the drive itself is making bad noises reinstalling the OS isn't going to help. He had to actually hold the laptop up to the phone to convince the tech. I'm sorry but for the amount that people pay for Apple care they shouldn't have to "convince" these people that there are problems with their systems esp if we are talking about a hard drive that is clicking like mad and is having problems booting. Esp when you consider that most PCs, be it desktops or laptops, come with 3 year warrantees by default with uber warrantees available for $150 or so. Sorry but quality control on software and hardware needs to be better and someone needs to clean up the mess in tech support.

Vanilla
Jan 1, 2004, 06:58 PM
With regards to the Ipod battery issue I would like to make two comments:

1/ Of course users expect and understand that batteries in battery powered appliances such as cellphones will degrade over time. The reason this situation is accepted is that the hardware design allows the user to purchase a replacement battery as and when neccessary and install it themselves.

The iPod does not.

You are purchasing a sealed unit with an - up till now - finite, undefined timespan for a not insignificant sum of money. This hardware design flaw is the core issue as I see it.

2/ The widely applauded recent introduction of a battery replacement program further highlights this design flaw, but at least a user has an avenue now to extend the life of their iPods.

If you live in the USA

If however you are one of the many thousands living outside of the USA you are hosed as this warrenty doesnt extend to us currently. So please, less of the "there is a warranty, deal with it" comments.

Frankly I think this action - together with the iBook issue - is perfectly acceptable and long overdue. With luck Apple will realise that their Quality control needs to be improved, that hardware design should take into account real life usage and that in future they should be more open in acknowledging issues as they arise.

As a related aside The Powerbook 15" debacle is a case in point. If one didnt have access to such forums as MacRumors you would never know of the risk involved in parting with £2K+ to purchase one of these machines. As has been pointed out a 2% market share should focus the minds on keeping each and every customer informed, supported and kept in the loop to secure a strong base of customer loyalty to build on. Recent evidence appears to suggest that this has been forgotten.
Vanilla

orl2222
Jan 1, 2004, 07:14 PM
I had a 700MHZ ibook and sent in twice for logic board failures. I also called customer support. They were going to replace it with a like for like new, however, they did not have any. After some bantering back and forth, They agreed to upgrade me to a revB powerbook. I am on the road quite a bit, so a laptop is essential for my job. I'm very happy for the upgrade, but for those of you that haven't experienced it, cross your fingers. Nothing worse then putting on a presentation and your ibook screen flickers, horizontal lines, and goes black.

Ling
Jan 1, 2004, 07:28 PM
I have a second generation 10GB iPod that still has great battery life. My iBook has never had any problems.

Ask me about FW 400 drives...and that's a different story. That's a lawsuit I'd be interested in.

madamimadam
Jan 1, 2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Pants
wise words.

I have a two month old Al 15" powerbook, and the screen is, quite frankly, awful. It was delivered with 2 dead pixels, and is now up to 4, but worse has 6 very prominant white spots. for a £2+K machine, i find it completely unacceptable.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is all these anecdotal issues - pb's, ibooks and ipods - suggest a drop in general quality control. Apple care should not be a 'must' when you buy something, merely an optional extra, and it certainly shouldn't be used by apple as a way of fixing issues post release.

So, what you are saying is that Apple should become the only tech company that has 100% perfection and make machines that will never, ever break... in which case you don't even need to think about buying extended warranty. I think you might want to re-think that, stop being silly and just deal with the fact that computers, esp ones on the cutting edge fitting a super computer into a container 1 inch think, are likely to have problems, some small, some major but your warranty covers them. Take it to a service centre and ask if you can keep it until the replacement screen is in stock and then it is only about a 2-3 hour change over on the screen.


As for the iPod battery issue, my mobile phone has 6 months warranty and then I have to buy a new battery if it dies. iPods have 1 year with optional 2 years... that is up to 4x better than a mobile phone.

revenuee
Jan 1, 2004, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Vanilla
With regards to the Ipod battery issue I would like to make two comments:

1/ Of course users expect and understand that batteries in battery powered appliances such as cellphones will degrade over time. The reason this situation is accepted is that the hardware design allows the user to purchase a replacement battery as and when neccessary and install it themselves.

The iPod does not.

You are purchasing a sealed unit with an - up till now - finite, undefined timespan for a not insignificant sum of money. This hardware design flaw is the core issue as I see it.



I think you nailed it ...

the 99$ for a battery seems expensive ... but a replacement battery for my cellphone costs 60$

iJed
Jan 1, 2004, 08:03 PM
I had this problem with my iBook 500 back at the beginning of 2003. Thinking that it was just one of these things I took it into my local Apple Centre <www.scotsys.co.uk> and they replaced the mobo for a whopping £315 (~$500). The moronic idiots at this place also managed to dent my DVD-ROM drive so that it scratched the disks whenever they were put in. Fortunately I was able to fix that myself rather than send it back in for more damage to be done. Anyway I feel rather cheated now that I know this is a real design flaw rather than "just one of these things" and would really like a refund of the money I payed for this. This is a lot of money for a student to pay for a problem that should never have happened. Its not going to stop me getting a new iPod after MacWorld though :D

Daveman Deluxe
Jan 1, 2004, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by revenuee
I think you nailed it ...

the 99$ for a battery seems expensive ... but a replacement battery for my cellphone costs 60$

Bear in mind that you're paying for labor costs as well. If you're willing to do it yourself, replacement batteries are $49 and the battery is not hard to access.

For what it's worth, my iPod is over two years old and I still get a solid five or six hours of battery life out if it.

revenuee
Jan 1, 2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
Bear in mind that you're paying for labor costs as well. If you're willing to do it yourself, replacement batteries are $49 and the battery is not hard to access.

For what it's worth, my iPod is over two years old and I still get a solid five or six hours of battery life out if it.

Labour costs of what? my cell phone battery? or the iPod?

mine is new ... so i guess i don't have to worry about the battery life yet ... But a second battery would also be nice to have for the iPod.

THe Belkin Battery Pack is quite bulky .. so an internal battery replacement would be nice to have

i've looked over my iPod and i can't see an easy way of accessing it without the use of tools and potentially damaging the fragile finish of the iPod....

I've noticed that if you push on the back the seems open to get a tool in ... but again ... i could see even a plastic tool damaging the finish

kdog
Jan 1, 2004, 08:28 PM
Hi - I've had two logic boards fail in my iBook 700/16VRAM. First was at 400 days, second was 28 days after Apple replaced the first. The third one has been fine since early November; perhaps Apple has worked out a fix. For a while they were swapping out the dead boards with refurbed ones but not addressing the problem - turns out the video chip was coming loose from the logic board and wreaking havoc - shorting out, etc.

There are many hundreds of users who have experienced this problem and there are now active discussions of the issue all over the web (thanks to the media for picking up on this stuff finally- turns out a bunch of media houses experienced the problems themselves!)

As for the class action suit that's being pulled together (I've signed on), I agree that the lawyers do make out, but it is also the only way to put pressure on Apple to admit there's an issue. To date they have stuck with "no known issues" which is infuriating to the large number of owners who have experienced the failure. I hope that Apple comes to grips with the problem before the class action suit goes through; if not, I'm all for it. The suits have been necessary several times in the past with Apple. They make lots of great products but some turn out to be lemons!

My advice? If you need a laptop, stay away from iBooks- buy a powerbook if you can afford it, otherwise look at Dell.

elo
Jan 1, 2004, 08:50 PM
It's easy to slam lawyers, but the facts often tell a different story. Lawyers don't make a penny from a class action suit unless they win in court or unless the company settles. In the former case, the lawyers must *prove* that the product was defective and that the defect caused the problem consumers are complaining about. In the case of a settlement, the plaintiffs' lawyers must convince the company's lawyers that they will be able to prove their case in court. Otherwise, a company with the legal resources of Apple would never think of settling. To prove a complex case like either of these, the law firm must commission scientific studies, hire experts for evaluation, etc., all at the law firm's expense. In cases such as this, it is not uncommon for a firm to spend more than a million dollars preparing the case for trial. This is all money that the firm will *lose* if their case doesn't prevail.

That money is an important (and very effective) safeguard against frivolous litigation. Moreover, if the firm wins, much of its fee will go to cover the costs associated with getting the case ready for trial. What seems like a high attorney fee therefore usually isn't. (The average lawyer makes only about $40,000 per year.) Lawyers do hope to make money, of course, but the threat of losing is every bit as much a check on plaintiffs as it is on companies that might otherwise release defective products to save money themselves.

One more point: I don't know anything about the iBook issue, but in the case of the iPods, a firm is merely posting a request for feedback from consumers. A firm that does class action work definitely keeps its ear to the ground for potentially winnable suits (that is, cases where product defects *can* be proven). Thus, when something like the alleged iPod battery problems makes the news, it will get their attention. But then begins a long process of deciding whether the company did in fact do something wrong, and whether the case can be proven in court. If not, it will be abandoned (the law firm absorbing the costs of the work it did to determine this). That's where the iPod "case" is right now. Nothing has been filed, but its viability is being assessed.

This process is very healthy for our economy. Because of some successful suits and the threat that a company could be sued for acting wrongfully, consumers generally can expect products they buy to work as advertised, and that's a good thing. Where that's the case, the company doesn't have anything to worry about (as no firm will waste money pursuing a case with no support).

As someone with ties to the legal profession, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of lawyers are motivated not by greed, but by a desire to serve a great and noble system. It is, after all, one of the only professions where ethical issues are taught in schools and constantly considered by those practicing the profession. And without their work, we would have a very different quality of life.

elo

Daveman Deluxe
Jan 1, 2004, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by revenuee
Labour costs of what? my cell phone battery? or the iPod?

The $99 iPod battery replacement covers the labor costs of doing so. Remember, that includes processing, repairs, packaging, the whole nine yards.

Personally, if my battery were to die on me, I'd replace it myself. It's not hard to do.

revenuee
Jan 1, 2004, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
The $99 iPod battery replacement covers the labor costs of doing so. Remember, that includes processing, repairs, packaging, the whole nine yards.

Personally, if my battery were to die on me, I'd replace it myself. It's not hard to do.

Yes ... thats what i though you meant ...

Well the point with the cellphone was that 99$ is not unreasonable at all...

But you say replace it yourself? care to share how i could go about taking apart my iPod without damaging the finish?

hob
Jan 1, 2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by earlopogous
Thank GOD! my iBook just died and would have been out of warranty if i hadnt bought AppleCare. i would have been one mad person, if it had dies after the warranty.

But surely the point is that a product defect shouldn't require a waranty? Recall, people!!

hob
Jan 1, 2004, 09:11 PM
When you buy something...

Shouldn't it work?

If it breaks due to no fault of your own...

Why should you have to pay for it?

MattG
Jan 1, 2004, 09:25 PM
This all doesn't surprise me. I've read many stories about people having to send their iBooks in numerous times for mobo/video problems. My boss from my last job has a 800mhz 12" G3 iBook, and he's had to send his in now 3 or 4 times for the same problem. Just crazy.

And no, he doesn't have AppleCare because this is Florida and it's not available to us. **********.

S.Snake
Jan 1, 2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by revenuee
But you say replace it yourself? care to share how i could go about taking apart my iPod without damaging the finish?

On my 5 GB all you have to do is hold the iPod face down in both hands and press on the Apple logo, and that little flex exposes the gaps along the side between the metal back and the front, then while holding it in one hand its easy to pry apart with your nails or anything else you want to use. Once you get the back off the battery is right there

rjwill246
Jan 1, 2004, 10:22 PM
... Apple may as well STOP all innovation and go away... or, much better, if you are a person who simply cannot tolerate cutting edge technology not working as well as proven 20 year old technolgy, then DON'T bloody well buy the new stuff!

Plucking the feathers out of Apple is the perfect remedy to kill the Golden Goose. Congrats on the myopia and thanks for aiding the poor poor lawyers, for YOU will NOT reap anything more than a 50 buck coupon for some Apple product... but a new iPod you will NOT get! Oh --and don't complain when the mudslide starts and Apple goes west!

wizard
Jan 1, 2004, 10:44 PM
I had a little laugh about the cable to the video display. At work I have an OLD TI VPU - basicly a programming terminal for old PLC's, I've had to change the cable several times that runs from the video display to the keyboard unit. Now I see I should have just started a class action suit.

Frankly I think the whole thing just sucks. It owuld be one thing if Apple wasn't fixing the units under warrenty but this doesn't appear to be the case. There is nothing made buy man that is perfect, though many lawers will try to persuade you otherwise, as long as they honor the warrant and address the problem I don't see where there is any thing worthwhile in a law suite.

Dave


Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
IMO, Apple should come out and say something along the lines of, "We realize that there is a logic board issue. If you've sent it in once before on a logic board issue and an AppleCare technician determine you're having the same issue again, we'll send you a new/refurbished unit."

Apple needs to get to work on the problem. According to an article I read (I haven't got the link) a guy with considerable technical savvy and tools did some investigation and found that frayed RF shielding was shorting out against the body of the iBook. The display issue is borne from the hole that the display cables run through being too small and pinching the cables as the screen is moved. Even if the cables don't get pinched, they are not of sufficient thickness to withstand the stress of being twisted around like they are. As a result, insulation can crack and the wires short out.

It sounds like a couple of minor design/component decisions (make the display conduit wider, use heavier wire) would end these problems.

mian
Jan 1, 2004, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by hob
When you buy something...

Shouldn't it work?

If it breaks due to no fault of your own...

Why should you have to pay for it?

So everything should be under warranty forever? Cars, houses, tvs, etc.

sushi
Jan 1, 2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by mian
So everything should be under warranty forever? Cars, houses, tvs, etc.
That's right! :p :D

For example, my almost 19+ year old Sony TV should be fixed or replaced for free since it is starting to act up a bit.

I mean, after all, it has only been moved moved 7 times (two of them internationally).

Sure looking forward to my new TV! :D

Sushi

gadgetfreak
Jan 1, 2004, 11:42 PM
My emac has display problems. The vertical size has shrunk with video noise runs through the picture. Apple wants $500 to repair it. It was only 15 days out of warranty. I've read in the Apple news groups that the problem I'm having is VERY common!!

me_94501
Jan 2, 2004, 12:13 AM
Do you have one of the first eMacs? I know the first ones had some video problems.

latergator116
Jan 2, 2004, 12:54 AM
Are the powermacs and imacs the only computers without a known flaw?:confused:

latergator116
Jan 2, 2004, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by wizard
I had a little laugh about the cable to the video display. At work I have an OLD TI VPU - basicly a programming terminal for old PLC's, I've had to change the cable several times that runs from the video display to the keyboard unit. Now I see I should have just started a class action suit.

Frankly I think the whole thing just sucks. It owuld be one thing if Apple wasn't fixing the units under warrenty but this doesn't appear to be the case. There is nothing made buy man that is perfect, though many lawers will try to persuade you otherwise, as long as they honor the warrant and address the problem I don't see where there is any thing worthwhile in a law suite.

Dave

The lawsuit is a way of briging the point across to apple. They are abviously not doing anything about it and they probably won't unless they get sued. Just because they are fixing the machines under warranty doesn't mean people are satisified. They are REPEATEDLY breaking even after they are fixed (a lot out of waranty).

avus
Jan 2, 2004, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by latergator116
The lawsuit is a way of briging the point across to apple. They are abviously not doing anything about it and they probably won't unless they get sued. Just because they are fixing the machines under warranty doesn't mean people are satisified. They are REPEATEDLY breaking even after they are fixed (a lot out of waranty).

I bought an iBook 800 MHz last April. Its logic board failed last October. Obviously, it was taken care by the warranty, and the repair just took a week. It has been fine in last two months. I do hope that Apple found a fix for this problem, and this will not occur again. I will find out.

I had an iBook 500 MHz that I sold to my friend, and I have another friend who bought an iBook 800 MHz a year ago. They have not been affected. I am not saying that this problem doesn't exist, but I would like to stress that this problem "only" occurs in a certain percentage of the iBook (Dual USB variants).

dopey
Jan 2, 2004, 02:46 AM
those of you unaffected, can mouth off about greedy lawyers and outrageous expectations for "cutting edge technology" all you want. The fact is the ibook is sold as a basic consumer model, a durable one at that. I quote from apple's own website "The deceptively smooth and well-rounded iBook is surprisingly rugged. It was designed with durability in mind."

nobody buys a laptop expecting a maximum of 6-20 months of useage and one would expect a product sold as "durable" would last considerably longer.

Apple computer, being based in California is subject to its laws regarding consumer goods. California civil code section 1792 discusses the "manufacturer's implied warranty of fitness."

So, a year an a half after I had grown to love my little ibook, its logic board is dead. Clearly 1500 (bare minimum estimate) similarly defective ibooks, failing due to a design flaw require apple to recognize this "implied warranty."

considering apple professes "there is no know issue," it is well within reasonablilty to force apple to acknowledge this problem. A class action suit and publicizing this problem is logical and productive towards rectifying the thousands of dead ibooks out there. The class action suit has more than doubled its number of interested persons in the last 5 days as the problem has gained publicity. We are not trying to kill apple with bad publicity, most of us love apple and all we want is our ibooks to work again. is that so bad?

Vanilla
Jan 2, 2004, 03:20 AM
Just to summarise my earlier post

It IS acceptable to have to replace batteries from time to time

It is NOT acceptable to design the hardware such that the only safe way of doing this is to send it back to the manufacturer for a significant charge.

Furthermore it is outrageous that this replacement policy is ONLY applicable in the USA. All non-US owners have spent $xxx’s on a product that has a potential fixed finite lifespan of around 1.5 years, after which you are hosed. Once this fact has gained greater recognition outside of the US, expect sparks to fly.

Deliberately withholding critical information of known issues from the public domain while continuing to market ones products as quality items is unacceptable. Admit it and deal with it openly and quickly.

Vanilla

avus
Jan 2, 2004, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by dopey
those of you unaffected, can mouth off about greedy lawyers and outrageous expectations for "cutting edge technology" all you want. The fact is the ibook is sold as a basic consumer model, a durable one at that. I quote from apple's own website "The deceptively smooth and well-rounded iBook is surprisingly rugged. It was designed with durability in mind."


The iBook is sure durable - I dropped mine from the desk and it landed on the right side while the AC Adaptor was still attached. It left the mark on the case, but the machine was all right. I strongly doubt that it had anything to my logic board failure two months later.

Originally posted by dopey

nobody buys a laptop expecting a maximum of 6-20 months of useage and one would expect a product sold as "durable" would last considerably longer.


Tell your sentiment to Dell, HP, and other manufacturers who "only" offer 1 year limited warranty on their notebooks, too. They aren't any different from Apple, are they?

I am completely satisfied with the iBook (I am using now) and Apple's service to my logic board failure.

As much as I feel sympathy for those who have had repeated failures on their iBooks, I strongly detest a sense of entitlement among those who petition for this.

Daveman Deluxe
Jan 2, 2004, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by Vanilla
It IS acceptable to have to replace batteries from time to time

It is NOT acceptable to design the hardware such that the only safe way of doing this is to send it back to the manufacturer for a significant charge.

Furthermore it is outrageous that this replacement policy is ONLY applicable in the USA. All non-US owners have spent $xxx’s on a product that has a potential fixed finite lifespan of around 1.5 years, after which you are hosed. Once this fact has gained greater recognition outside of the US, expect sparks to fly.

1. It is not at all difficult to replace the battery in the iPod. I have disassembled my iPod myself and estimate replacing the battery would take less than fifteen minutes (your mileage will vary). The only drawback is that you void your warranty if you try to do this, but if your iPod is under warranty you can have the battery replaced for free anyway. If you want to have Apple replace an out-of-warranty battery, the charge is $99. That includes the battery ($49), the labor cost (probably in the ballpark of $20), overhead, management, and paying for everybody else that touches your iPod when it's in repair from the guy working at the loading dock when it comes in to the person that hands it over to the shipping company on the way back. $99 is NOT unreasonable. A removable battery would be nice, but the iPod would be neither as small nor as good-looking as it is now.

2. There is NOTHING Apple can do about the longevity of the batteries. Lithium ion batteries have a longevity of about five hundred charge cycles. If you use the battery until it's dead and recharge it every day, those five hundred cycles will be depleted in about seventeen months. This is NOT a gaffe on Apple's part, it's just the way lithium ion batteries are.

Vanilla
Jan 2, 2004, 04:24 AM
Daveman

You say "$99 is NOT unreasonable."

I say, a replacement charge that is a third of the cost of the entire product IS unreasonable.

I also say that only offering this to US residents is outrageous. Please, there is a World out there past the shores of the US of A, which will soon be VERY pissed when this story spreads to them.

jrober
Jan 2, 2004, 06:47 AM
I am the not so happy UK owner of a 18 month old 5Gb iPod which has ceased working. Cost of product when new £279 - Apple quoted cost to fix said durable product £250 = Cost of new 3gen 10Gb - If I wanted to spend this large amount.

Come on Apple offer us a trade in program.

btw. Low battery life is an issue for iPod owners and the warranty / fix cost should reflect this. Your battery charges up every time you sync you iPod to get the latest tunes onto the player. 500 cycles may not be "durable" when the player operates like this.

madamimadam
Jan 2, 2004, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by dopey
California civil code section 1792 discusses the "manufacturer's implied warranty of fitness."

Yes, but remember that Adam civil code section DW338 discusses "blah blah blah wank wank wank"

sushi
Jan 2, 2004, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
1. It is not at all difficult to replace the battery in the iPod. I have disassembled my iPod myself and estimate replacing the battery would take less than fifteen minutes (your mileage will vary). The only drawback is that you void your warranty if you try to do this, but if your iPod is under warranty you can have the battery replaced for free anyway. If you want to have Apple replace an out-of-warranty battery, the charge is $99. That includes the battery ($49), the labor cost (probably in the ballpark of $20), overhead, management, and paying for everybody else that touches your iPod when it's in repair from the guy working at the loading dock when it comes in to the person that hands it over to the shipping company on the way back. $99 is NOT unreasonable. A removable battery would be nice, but the iPod would be neither as small nor as good-looking as it is now.

2. There is NOTHING Apple can do about the longevity of the batteries. Lithium ion batteries have a longevity of about five hundred charge cycles. If you use the battery until it's dead and recharge it every day, those five hundred cycles will be depleted in about seventeen months. This is NOT a gaffe on Apple's part, it's just the way lithium ion batteries are.
Well put!

And those who don't want to spend the $99 can get the replacement battery and do it themselves.

Sushi

sushi
Jan 2, 2004, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by jrober
I am the not so happy UK owner of a 18 month old 5Gb iPod which has ceased working. Cost of product when new £279 - Apple quoted cost to fix said durable product £250 = Cost of new 3gen 10Gb - If I wanted to spend this large amount.

Come on Apple offer us a trade in program.

btw. Low battery life is an issue for iPod owners and the warranty / fix cost should reflect this. Your battery charges up every time you sync you iPod to get the latest tunes onto the player. 500 cycles may not be "durable" when the player operates like this.
Question: Do you want to fix the iPod or just replace the battery?

The charge to fix and replace a battery are different, are they not?

As for your comment about the battery charging when you sync that is true. But how hard is it to wait until your iPod battery is drained before you sync? Seems pretty simple to do to me.

Sushi

sushi
Jan 2, 2004, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by jrober
Come on Apple offer us a trade in program.
Good idea. Always thought that Apple should offer a trade in/up program for all their major products (desktop, laptop, iPod).

It would be a great way to recognize customer loyalty and encourage those fence sitters to go ahead and upgrade. This would allow Apple to sell more computers to the Mac community.

Sushi

jrober
Jan 2, 2004, 07:28 AM
Sushi,

I should have been clearer the pod needs major fixing - error messages and problem appear to be hard drive related - battery is v fine. Maybe I can break it for spare parts offers?

(btw I have been through all troubleshooting advice I could find and more to fix it - well knackered and it has had a cushioned life in my jacket pocket.)

On the charging piece when we got the iPod it was being connected every night as we built up our music collection on it, so maybe 100 charges in the first 4 months then weekly. I guess you could wait for the battery but my habit was get home dump keys phone etc and hook up my iPod for fresh juice and tunes at my desk.

sushi
Jan 2, 2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by jrober
Sushi,

I should have been clearer the pod needs major fixing - error messages and problem appear to be hard drive related - battery is v fine. Maybe I can break it for spare parts offers?

(btw I have been through all troubleshooting advice I could find and more to fix it - well knackered and it has had a cushioned life in my jacket pocket.)

On the charging piece when we got the iPod it was being connected every night as we built up our music collection on it, so maybe 100 charges in the first 4 months then weekly. I guess you could wait for the battery but my habit was get home dump keys phone etc and hook up my iPod for fresh juice and tunes at my desk.
Ouch! Bummer.

Understand about your battery.

I was worried about wanting to listen to the iPod and having a dead battery. So here is what I did. I purchased an extra FW cable. I would use it to charge my iPod at home. Then I took the charger and FW cable to work and left it there. I also purchased a car recharger as I spend a lot of time in my car driving. So now if the iPod dies due to low battery, I can just recharge it at that point. Seems to work well. When I take a trip, I take the regular adapter, the car adapter and the short FW cable. And now with the new thinner FW cables available from Apple, it is even more convenient.

So far, after 18 months my iPod is still going strong.

Anyhow, just some ideas...

Sushi

artmc
Jan 2, 2004, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81


Maybe PC users predictions that Apple won't live beyond 05' are now coming true..


Maybe IBM will buy out Apple.


This is a **LONG** outstanding for lack of a better word,
JOKE .

Some nice predictions by less than compotent PC "experts":

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,939886,00.asp
http://www.macobserver.com/appledeathknell/
http://www.mackido.com/Press/NostraDumass.html

Since these "experts" know more than anyone (why else would they be in print) they **MUST** be right.

SIGH


*art*

pablol
Jan 2, 2004, 08:25 AM
I bought an 800mHz G3 ibook back in March. The logic board died within a few weeks of owning it. They fixed it under warranty, but I got scared and bought AppleCare. Now it just died again!!! So in 9 months, my logic board has died twice and I'm sure it will happen again. Yes, I have applecare but it's a pain in the ass having to send it back to Apple all the time and I shouldn't be forced to buy applecare just out of fear because they have a defect. Furthermore, they won't even admit there are any problems with the logic boards. They told me this was an "isolated case". I thought it must be until I heard about this lawsuit, which I will be more than happy to support. I love Apple, but they can be very arrogant.

jadam
Jan 2, 2004, 10:28 AM
Ive had to send in my ibook twice for display/logic board problems. Maybe I should join this class action lawsuit :)

jero
Jan 2, 2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by carletonmusic
calling it irresponsible may not be the wisest wording. A faulty product deserves a recall/repair if the vendor finds out about it. Knowledge of the motherboard problems (crapping out after a year is a BIG problem) is grounds enough for Apple to be sued. No one should be forced into buying Apple care. That is designed to cover incidental complications, not proscribed problems.

amen.

jero
Jan 2, 2004, 10:42 AM
-nevermind just read the whole thread.

geerlingguy
Jan 2, 2004, 11:07 AM
From reading more of these posts, this issue seems to be a very inflamatory topic. I understand the pain of those who have a relatively new computer go dead on them... My original PowerBook 180c, PowerBook 190, and Performa 630 went dead within two years of purchase.

But I didn't want to sue Apple. You've got to understand that there is a percentage of machines that go dead. That is why I earlier posted that it is irresponsible to purchase a laptop computer (with a much higher percentage failure rate) without insurance (i.e. AppleCare).

As for the iPod, I agree with many others: batteries die quickly. So far, in the past two years, my cordless phone (Sony) battery died about 6 months after purchase (only held charge for about five minutes), my DV Camera (Sony) battery died within about 12 months after purchase, and my wireless phone (Nokia) battery died within 8 months of purchase. If you bought the iPod without thinking about the battery, then that's your problem. Nokia didn't put a claim on the phone box saying: "Warning your battery may die in as little as one hour after turning on the phone"...

I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I'm just trying to help people understand my view better. :D

rlw
Jan 2, 2004, 11:11 AM
I had an one year old iBook's motherboard go bad. It would be interesting to know the exact percentage that went bad.

None the less, I am not convinced that the solution is a class action. A class action would help the lawyers, hurt Apple, and leave the consumers with about zip.

Sorry, I think that the best thing is to move on.

BTW, I sold mine (not working) for $40O.

geerlingguy
Jan 2, 2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by rlw
I had an one year old iBook's motherboard go bad. It would be interesting to know the exact percentage that went bad.

None the less, I am not convinced that the solution is a class action. A class action would help the lawyers, hurt Apple, and leave the consumers with about zip.

Sorry, I think that the best thing is to move on.

BTW, I sold mine (not working) for $400.

I think that is responsible way to deal with the situation at hand. Think these things through if you are having these problems before you go posting your name on some petition list.

Another question I have is: How do we know that all the people on this petition list are real people, or even if they own Macs at all? Couldn't they be PeeCee users or employees of MS? What way does the site have of verifying the people's names?

elgruga
Jan 2, 2004, 12:30 PM
The local school board just gave my kids (we home school) a 500mhz iBook. Its over 2 years old, has obviously been treated well, and works fine.

WE are careful with it because its an OLD computer.

I am on my second iPod, and they both had/have zero problems. (I sold the first one to a friend, I wanted a bigger capacity HD)

My current iPod is in its 14th month, battery still kicks out about 8 - 10 hours.

I run it right down, I charge it right up.

I ACCEPT the shortcomings of technology and research them and plan around them. I read up on how to keep things OK.

I KNOW that batteries need special treatment.

I KNOW that laptops are delicate.

Thats my 10 cents.

CmdrLaForge
Jan 2, 2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by mian
Apple has sold about 1.3 million ibooks over the last two years. It looks like there are about 1500 people who have signed the complaints on the two websites. Are there specific models that have the problem? I would think a design flaw would have a much greater failure rate.

If the failure rate is really 0.11% then I have to say: Great job apple !

This is a very very low failure rate and really nothing anyone should worry about.

Cheers

revenuee
Jan 2, 2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Vanilla
Daveman

You say "$99 is NOT unreasonable."

I say, a replacement charge that is a third of the cost of the entire product IS unreasonable.

I also say that only offering this to US residents is outrageous. Please, there is a World out there past the shores of the US of A, which will soon be VERY pissed when this story spreads to them.

The limited to US part ... Yes

The 3rd of the cost? boohoo ... My cellphone costs 200$ CND and the replacement battery is 89$

(note: Prices in earlier posts quoted in estimated USD vs current CND)

OutThere
Jan 2, 2004, 12:57 PM
Let's consider a renaming of this thread:

"Let's all scream and rant at Apple because they are a terrible company that makes terrible products because they suck. Then let's invite everyone else in to scream and yell at our stupidty because everyone who has ever complained about a problem is wrong."

Vanilla
Jan 2, 2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by geerlingguy
As for the iPod, I agree with many others: batteries die quickly. So far, in the past two years, my cordless phone (Sony) battery died about 6 months after purchase (only held charge for about five minutes), my DV Camera (Sony) battery died within about 12 months after purchase, and my wireless phone (Nokia) battery died within 8 months of purchase. If you bought the iPod without thinking about the battery, then that's your problem. Nokia didn't put a claim on the phone box saying: "Warning your battery may die in as little as one hour after turning on the phone"... :D

Your Cordless phone has been designed to allow you the opportunity to change the battery
Your DV Camera has also been designed to allow you the opportunity to change the battery
Your Wireless phone (Nokia) has also been designed to allow you the opportunity to change the battery

All of them do NOT require you to send the product back to the manufacturer to change an expired battery
All of them provide the user the ability to replace the battery without voiding the warranty
All of them provide the opportunity to change the battery wherever you are in the World.

The iPod however, IS A SEALED UNIT.

It is NOT designed for the average user to open it and replace the battery themselves.

If one attempts this you run the risk of voiding your warranty

Your only option is to return the product back to APPLE.

If you are outside of the standard one year warranty you have to pay a third of the cost of the item itself to replace the battery. [To understand how disgusting that is, think how much it costs you to get a new DV Camera or cordless phone battery.]

If you are not resident in the USA you cannot even do this! [Think about that for a moment please, let the injustice of that stance sink in for a few seconds]

I'm sorry but there is no way you can justify this. The iPod battery situation was an accident waiting to happen, and happen it duly has.

Vanilla

rdowns
Jan 2, 2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Vanilla
The iPod however, IS A SEALED UNIT.

It is NOT designed for the average user to open it and replace the battery themselves.

If one attempts this you run the risk of voiding your warranty

Your only option is to return the product back to APPLE.

If you are under warranty, Apple will repalce the battery. If you are out of warranty, cracking the case voids nothing.

Daveman Deluxe
Jan 2, 2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Vanilla
If you are outside of the standard one year warranty you have to pay a third of the cost of the item itself to replace the battery. [To understand how disgusting that is, think how much it costs you to get a new DV Camera or cordless phone battery.

I fail to see how the price is unreasonable. The battery costs $49. The price of labor, tracking, bookkeeping, and other elements of depot repair, is right around $50, with a little wiggle room to make a bit of profit on the deal. IF THAT IS WHAT IT COSTS TO OFFER THE PROGRAM, IT IS A REASONABLE PRICE REGARDLESS OF THE PRICE OF THE ORIGINAL UNIT. Are you suggesting Apple offer a depot repair solution for $50, which would reduce Apple's profit margin to around -50%? That's a resounding HELL NO.

elgruga
Jan 2, 2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by CmdrLaForge
If the failure rate is really 0.11% then I have to say: Great job apple !

This is a very very low failure rate and really nothing anyone should worry about.

Cheers

Well said, LaForge!

elgruga
Jan 2, 2004, 02:23 PM
If $99 is too much to pay and the iPod is out of warranty - go here and pay $49.

www.ipodbattery.com


For everyones sanity, I hope Apple announce out the new iPod with AA's or something..............

rjstanford
Jan 2, 2004, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by avus
Tell your sentiment to Dell, HP, and other manufacturers who "only" offer 1 year limited warranty on their notebooks, too. They aren't any different from Apple, are they? Actually, many of the standard Dell, etc offerings (esp their "business" targeted laptops and servers) come with 3 year warrantees standard. Their upgrades are for same/next day on-site service. Of course, whenever I've seen this pointed out on this website as part of a cost comparison (for example, including AppleCare in Apple's pricing) most people will point out that you never need it... hmm...

Besides, you're paying a hefty premium for Apple hardware these days. The claim is that you're paying for better quality, as if you were buying an Audi, BMW, Mecedes, et cetera rather than the "Chevy" of a Dell. I don't have a problem with that - we're an Audi family ourselves, for example. But whenever I pay a high premium for something, I expect a certain level of service and quality to go along with that. Take the Audi in for a (free under warranty) oil change - end up with it being delivered, washed, with new wiper blades ("They looked a little worn"), et cetera. Asking your customers to pay for extra quality? Fine. Acting like a least-common-denominator company after doing so? That's just asking for trouble.

As for the iPod - I agree that that's much less of an issue than the recent iBook/powerBook complaints. However ... it is pretty bad for US customers. Besides, several of the points people are making here ("Never charge it! Wait until it dies, then plug it in...") go directly against Apple's own suggested uses (sync it everywhere, transfer calendar entries, buy a dock for home and work and leave it connected all the time). Should they have to fix it for free after warrantee? Probably not, but they should have done a much better job of explaining about battery lifespans and longevity, especially on a sealed consumer device.

-Richard

elgruga
Jan 2, 2004, 02:39 PM
Sorry, but I want to have my say about the Black Cider website. (Class action proposal for iBook owners site)

I am not convinced that all is fair and honest at this site.
No way to contact the site owner, they sell t-shirts and thongs(!wtf!)
the person says he's no longer an Apple user.

Lots of 'testimonials' from people who cant wait to get a Dell.

Gimme a break. This an anti-Apple troll site of you want my 10 cents.
(you probably dont, but you've got it)

As to the person who runs it - what can I say? Get a life.

In warranty? Fixed. Out of Warranty? get Apple care, buy extended 3rd party warranty, deal with it.

Its a computer - there are 30,000 dead in Iran, get a perspective here.

geerlingguy
Jan 2, 2004, 03:05 PM
Quoted from MacNN.com:

Several readers note that Reuters (republished by CNN and The Boston Globe) has published an "inaccurate" article on the recent iPod and iBook quality problems: "First, it knocks Apple's market share down to 2%. It goes on full of slanted hooey, and wraps up with stating that Apple's $99 iPod battery replacement was offered only after the ipodsdirtysecret.com web site came out, which is flagrantly untrue. The article makes no mention of the other battery replacement options that have always been available, or of the fact that ipodsdirtysecret.com now features a statement that Apple's warranty and replacement services are fair."

dopey
Jan 2, 2004, 03:05 PM
First, someone please explain how an expectation that our laptop computer wouldn't be sold with a defect limiting useage to no more than 2 years is a sense of entitlement. Those of you who can afford to be without a computer or be out $1000 towards another one thats fine, maybe you can help me out.

Second, what imbecile would complain to Dell about a broken Apple computer? Were I to purchase a PC and encounter the same problem I would take the same action towards whatever company made it.

Why can nobody accept that apple made a bad product and needs to accept responsibility. I've owned 5 macs, starting with an LCII and had great experiences, I plan on purchasing another apple, beleiving that this is a fluke. HOWEVER this problem needs to be addressed by Apple

Daveman Deluxe
Jan 2, 2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by rjstanford
Besides, several of the points people are making here ("Never charge it! Wait until it dies, then plug it in...") go directly against Apple's own suggested uses (sync it everywhere, transfer calendar entries, buy a dock for home and work and leave it connected all the time). Should they have to fix it for free after warrantee? Probably not, but they should have done a much better job of explaining about battery lifespans and longevity, especially on a sealed consumer device.

Anybody that tells you to never plug the iPod's battery in until it's completely discharged is a liar and deserves to be slapped. Lithium ion batteries such as the one in the iPod last longest if they are plugged in anytime there's an outlet handy.

In short, keep the iPod battery topped off as much as possible, but if you suddenly note a sharp decrease in battery life, run the iPod until it shuts off and then charge it up again to recalibrate the battery monitor.

For more information on batteries: http://www.batteryuniversity.com

rdowns
Jan 2, 2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by CmdrLaForge
If the failure rate is really 0.11% then I have to say: Great job apple !

This is a very very low failure rate and really nothing anyone should worry about.

Cheers

I agree and just put my money where my mouth is. Just won a CompUSA auction for an iBook G3-900 combo drive for $601. Don't really need a laptop but I wanted one. Just had a record shattering sales month so I decided I needed a present.

I'm waiting for a G5 iMac. Guess my step father will get my old iMac sooner than he thought.

Anyone know anything about CompUSA's TAP plan for notebooks? (I trust the quality but believe in insurance just in case. Hell, I run the web division of an extended auto warranty company)

madamimadam
Jan 2, 2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by sushi
But how hard is it to wait until your iPod battery is drained before you sync?

To back up DaveMan, it is actually worse for a Litium Ion to be run down than better. The discharge/recharge theory mainly works for batteries based on Nickel

madamimadam
Jan 2, 2004, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Vanilla
Your Cordless phone has been designed to allow you the opportunity to change the battery
Your DV Camera has also been designed to allow you the opportunity to change the battery
Your Wireless phone (Nokia) has also been designed to allow you the opportunity to change the battery

All of them do NOT require you to send the product back to the manufacturer to change an expired battery
All of them provide the user the ability to replace the battery without voiding the warranty
All of them provide the opportunity to change the battery wherever you are in the World.

The iPod however, IS A SEALED UNIT.

It is NOT designed for the average user to open it and replace the battery themselves.

If one attempts this you run the risk of voiding your warranty

But why... on earth... would you want to break open your iPod while it is under warranty when Apple will replace the unit for free if you have problems under warranty??????

Your only option is to return the product back to APPLE.

You've been shown that this is crapola

[To understand how disgusting that is, think how much it costs you to get a new DV Camera or cordless phone battery.]

It costs me about the same... have you ever replaced these bateries with genuine parts???

If you are not resident in the USA you cannot even do this! [Think about that for a moment please, let the injustice of that stance sink in for a few seconds]

WTF are you talking about... Australia is one country Apple usually waits until the last minute to consider and we have a battery replacement program. [Think about for a moment please, let your lack of research sink in for a few seconds]

I'm sorry but there is no way you can justify this. The iPod battery situation was an accident waiting to happen, and happen it duly has.

Right... and after we have finished with Apple we can start on Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Samsung and Motorolla... one by one we'll take them all down and then whinge and moan when the cost of products goes up significantly because the companies now have to provide a long warranty on an item that can not be made to last... at least not yet.

sushi
Jan 2, 2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by madamimadam
To back up DaveMan, it is actually worse for a Litium Ion to be run down than better. The discharge/recharge theory mainly works for batteries based on Nickel
My point was that you should exercise your batteries.

Yes, Nickel, as you state, batteries require a different mode of operation.

If you will read my whole post, I mentioned that I recharge when needed and not always top off. I have the ability to recharge at home, work and in the car so when my iPod needs a recharge I do it rather than topping it off every night.

I've had very good luck with this technique with a variety of devices (cell phones, DV camera, iPod, etc.) that use Litium Ion batteries . Then again, what we can get here in Japan is not always available worldwide. So YMMV.

BTW, I've had some Litium Ion batteries that have lasted past three years and still work fine. I've also had some that failed much much earlier than the two to three years and the expected number of recharge cycles.

Sushi

Quadra
Jan 2, 2004, 09:58 PM
From Macfixit

Dated service document noting problem MacFixIt reader Peter Hilleard says he has found a document prepared by Apple's service officials in July 2001 indicating that there was prior knowledge of display cables being damaged in some iBook models. The document is located in the "Restricted: Apple Specialists" section of Apple's Knowledge Base, and is titled "iBook (Dual USB): No Display, or Dim Display, But Computer Appears to Operate Correctly."


Troubleshooting step 5 reads: "Verify backlight cable and LVDS cable connections are seated properly and that the cables are not damaged."


Hilleard writes "This indicates Apple knew as early as July 2001 that these display cables can be damaged - It is not caused by the user (because the cables are completely hidden inside the iBook.)


"This is therefore a design fault. Yet when asked, Apple has steadfastly denied that there are any known issues and have charged many hundreds of dollars to repair this fault for any iBooks outside of warranty. Nor has Apple warned users of their prior knowledge that the cables can fail or advise of any measures the user might take to limit the problem."

Screen problems, logic board issues causing nearly 1700 to sign up on the ibook logic board petition, and additional 700+ on signed up on the class action. Only the stoic Apple apologist would fail to see the problem here.

Apple has lost some of it's luster in the powerbook quality control area over the last few years. Does the 5300/190, Duos, Original Titanium G4 ibook (flaking anyone?), Spots on the "15 screen bring up any amens? And now the ibook. In fact Apple should plain fire the engineer in charge of "hinges", heck they have never been right.

Oh well, Apple is following "delay and deny" that other companies do. I hope they see the light, fix the issue or create another 7 year RMA like they did with the 5300/190. Time will tell, but this issue isn't going away for sure.

Raidiant
Jan 3, 2004, 01:31 AM
I don't know what the service is like in the US, but I think some of you probably read my ibook woes.

i'm gonna let some steam go out of my expensive toilet tile (800mhz G3)

I have paid once for a logic board, with my leg ( I think more), now the screen is going, there are so many problems that I just take it for granted these day.

Apple in the end just looks nice, as much as that everything else just sucks. I feel offended as a customer that applecare laughs at my face when I tell them my display is wacky and suggested to change my logic board and display module (hahaha very funny)

I honestly can't stand you apple evangelists anymore, alot of people have the problem but just doesn't go and whine on the internet, and from what I've seen it is nearly a guaranteed problem after a year.

LETS ALL DO IT THE APPLE WAY, when something goes wrong or outdated in a year jsut go and BUY ANOTHER ONE, god now I believe what the PC people say. The more press about apple's suck the better so they will do something

Hey SJOBS it would be nice if you bothered to take all ibooks with that problem and replace the godamn display connector for us, at a small price.

rt_brained
Jan 3, 2004, 02:05 AM
Thanks Daveman for the "Battery University" link.

In the link, B.U. warns against keeping laptops plugged in too long and suggests removing the L-Ion battery to preserve its life when using a power cord... although, it mentions some manufacturers warn against such a practice, due to potential dust and moisture issues.

Any thoughts?

hulugu
Jan 3, 2004, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by MacBoy88
My iBook has a logic board problem. I am part of the class action. I love my iBook, but it aint even a year old!

If it's not a year-old won't Apple simply fix the machine? I don't understand if there's a problem why can't it be fixed or does banding together with your lawyers hand-in-hand fix your computer faster? If Apple has a bad batch of boards, then they should obviously fix it, but I don't think this requires a class action, then again I'm not a litigious person.

hulugu
Jan 3, 2004, 04:35 AM
Just to clarify how I feel before someone says Apple apologist:

I called Apple two weeks ago because the paint was flaking on my TiBook. The paint flakes were causing damage to the bezel and the screen casing. So, they sent a recover package the next day. I sent the machine to them on Friday and I recieved it back on Tuesday. The machine has a new bezel, screen lid, screen bezel, mouse pad, mouse bezel, etc. They cleaned my monitor and keyboard and shipped everything back in working order. I can't figure now whether I have good karma, I got a good Apple rep, or if everyone who has had trouble with Apple is a moron. People keep demanding that Apple fix their problems and in my experience they have. Two years ago my power supply end fell apart. I called them up and got a new one two days later. No one told me to 'buy a new one' or to 'deal with it' or to send for my lawyer.
I would say though that while petitions are good, class action lawsuits show an utter failure of communication on both sides.

And Vanilla, to use the word injustice when decribing a battery failure on your Mp3 player is hyperbole at best, an utter failure to realize the state of the world and the meaning of justice at worst.

Vanilla
Jan 3, 2004, 05:22 AM
madamimadam

1. If your cellphone battery dies, you go to your local shop, pick up a new battery, go home, install and recharge it. You have your hardware active at all times with only a restriction in portability as it recharges. With the iPod, if the battery dies you have to package it up and send it to the Apple service centre who will decide whether to fix or replace it and then send it back to you. You are without your hardware throughout this time.

2. The iPod is a sealed unit, it is not designed for the user to install the battery themselves. Nokia and Ericcsson phones have some of the sleekest, most compact designs in the market yet all provide the user with the means of replacing the battery, so the lack of this facility in the iPod is not simply a design issue, it’s a BAD design issue.

3. The standard warranty is for one year and - ignoring the fact that you have to hand your precious iPod over for the moment – of course Apple will replace/fix a dead battery during this time. Yet it appears that on average iPod batteries are dying during year 2+, which means that everyone should be purchasing the extended Warranty at the very least to cover themselves. The point of course as has been mentioned before is twofold: a/why should the user be obliged to purchase an extended warranty to cover themselves for something everyone is aware WILL happen? A warranty should be there to cover the unforeseen; providing a standard warranty that falls short of covering known issues is bad customer service. B/from what I understand if you live in Florida you cannot actually purchase the extended warranty in any case, having instead to rely on the standard one-year warranty.

4. I cannot comment on your experience of example battery costs. I own an Ericsson T610 cellphone, replacement battery circa £14. I also own a Canon MV500i camcorder, replacement battery circa £30. Of course one can always come up with examples to suit ones position so lets agree to drop this particular point.

5. As for the battery replacement program I reside in the UK and it is not available here. I did actually look on the Australian Apple website but could not find any reference to the program. If you could provide a link to the page I would be happy to apologise for my assumption this was purely US biased.

I really cannot believe some of the comments from Apple evangelists here. I love Apple products, own an iMac and am plucking up the courage to buy a PowerBook 15” (held back so far coincidentally by concerns over Apple’s Quality control) but this iPod issue is surely to God black & white.

You cannot have a hardware design that removes from the user the ability to easily upgrade the battery as necessary themselves. Neither should you have a standard warranty that does not cover all known issues (ie batteries dying within two years), effectively making the “optional” extended Warranty in reality a mandatory requirement. Nor should you have a situation where a solution to the known issue in the form of the battery replacement program is not universally available to all users Worldwide.

The solution is simple. In the first instance:

1. Extend the standard Warranty to two years for the iPod only, but make the second year purely to cover battery degradation, with all other issues incurring a charge. [This will keep Florida users happy with a timeframe that will cover the vast majority of known battery issues Worldwide]

2. Have the Extended Warranty cover year two fully, with an additional three years on top.

3. Make the out of Warranty battery replacement program valid Worldwide

But ultimately they should redesign the product to allow the user to replace the battery themselves

Vanilla

Vanilla
Jan 3, 2004, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by hulugu
And Vanilla, to use the word injustice when decribing a battery failure on your Mp3 player is hyperbole at best, an utter failure to realize the state of the world and the meaning of justice at worst.

In terms of a straight transaction between the user and Apple in the purchase of an iPod, the battery issue is indeed an injustice. When compared to the Middle East crisis, the Iraq situation, the oppression in Tibet etc, etc it is of course so insignificant as to be laughable.

I was not aware that one had to gauge the priority of ones grievance on what is a Mac forum against Global political/economic crises.

Frankly if we go down that path I cannot see how any problem from whitespots on a Powerbook to perceived speed issues in Powermacs can be sensibly discussed without someone killing the conversation stone dead by throwing in a comparison with a current political or economic crisis.

However I do take the spirit of your point on board and will attempt to resort to a more traditionally sober, semi-apologetic British stance in future.

Vanilla

MacBoy88
Jan 3, 2004, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by hulugu
If it's not a year-old won't Apple simply fix the machine? I don't understand if there's a problem why can't it be fixed or does banding together with your lawyers hand-in-hand fix your computer faster? If Apple has a bad batch of boards, then they should obviously fix it, but I don't think this requires a class action, then again I'm not a litigious person.


What I am trying to say is that my iBook is less than a year old AND Apple still wont fix it! Not that I wont send it in. I will if they will fix it but they won't.

EDIT: Spelling

madamimadam
Jan 3, 2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Vanilla


Firstly, at no point did you cover the point that your mobile/cell phone comes with only 6 months warranty, unlike what you are asking for on the iPod.

Secondly, if I want ANYTHING done to my mobile while in warranty, I have to leave it at a service centre. Once outside of warranty I can buy the battery to install myself. The same is true for the iPod which has been shown to be quite easy to dismantle.

Thirdly, no one is forced to buy extended warranty but you would be a fool not to now that it is available. Here in Australia, it costs the same amount in AU$ as a new battery costs in US$ and it covers the whole package plus phone support.

Lastly, the best I can do on the replacement program is ask the guys in service on Monday about it because it was set up a long time ago now and I don't keep emails THAT old.

Oh, and BTW, why don't we leave God out of this one ;)
Then again.... isn't God Jobs????? ;)

Daveman Deluxe
Jan 3, 2004, 02:32 PM
This is the last post I will be making in response to anything Vanilla says.

Originally posted by Vanilla
1. If your cellphone battery dies, you go to your local shop, pick up a new battery, go home, install and recharge it. You have your hardware active at all times with only a restriction in portability as it recharges. With the iPod, if the battery dies you have to package it up and send it to the Apple service centre who will decide whether to fix or replace it and then send it back to you. You are without your hardware throughout this time.

As we have said before, it is not at all difficult to replace the battery in the iPod yourself. I've tinkered around in my iPod before and I'm a klutz if ever there was one.

2. The iPod is a sealed unit, it is not designed for the user to install the battery themselves. Nokia and Ericcsson phones have some of the sleekest, most compact designs in the market yet all provide the user with the means of replacing the battery, so the lack of this facility in the iPod is not simply a design issue, it’s a BAD design issue.

The cell phone also has a smaller LCD display, no hard drive, a less complicated motherboard, and a much shallower interface electronics panel. Cell phone makers can afford to expend a some space on a removable battery solution. With an iPod, however, a removable battery would increaze the size significantly (latches, second walls, battery cases, electrodes, etc.), would be more prone to failure, and likely would be made out of ugly plastic instead of looking any good.

3. The standard warranty is for one year and - ignoring the fact that you have to hand your precious iPod over for the moment – of course Apple will replace/fix a dead battery during this time. Yet it appears that on average iPod batteries are dying during year 2+, which means that everyone should be purchasing the extended Warranty at the very least to cover themselves. The point of course as has been mentioned before is twofold: a/why should the user be obliged to purchase an extended warranty to cover themselves for something everyone is aware WILL happen? A warranty should be there to cover the unforeseen; providing a standard warranty that falls short of covering known issues is bad customer service. B/from what I understand if you live in Florida you cannot actually purchase the extended warranty in any case, having instead to rely on the standard one-year warranty.

Lithium ion batteries have a finite lifetime. For most users, this will extend far beyond two years--my iPod is well over two years old and its battery is still fine. Since lithium ion batteries have five hundred cycles in them, a one-year warranty seems to me to be a reasonable warranty--if the battery fails inside of a year, that's at most about 350 cycles and is far less than you should be getting out of your battery. Over a year, I feel that there's no basis for complaint if the battery goes out because the battery will have lasted something at least sort of close to what it should have.

The Florida issue isn't Apple's fault. Florida requires that companies offering warranty programs actually earmark the amount of a replacement unit in a bank account somewhere. Very few companies offer extended warranties in Florida, and I don't blame them.

5. As for the battery replacement program I reside in the UK and it is not available here. I did actually look on the Australian Apple website but could not find any reference to the program. If you could provide a link to the page I would be happy to apologise for my assumption this was purely US biased.

I have no comment on this other than to say that each country has its own laws that need to be followed in these issues. Terms-of-service agreements have to be written in proper legalese, and all sorts of behind-the-scenes work needs to be taken care of to make these things a reality. This takes time. In short, be patient because it will happen. It's not as if Steve can snap his fingers and it's done. Do you seriously think the U.S. got a battery replacement program within a week of the idea being tossed about? It probably took a good nine months' lead time before the announcement of the program.

1. Extend the standard Warranty to two years for the iPod only, but make the second year purely to cover battery degradation, with all other issues incurring a charge. [This will keep Florida users happy with a timeframe that will cover the vast majority of known battery issues Worldwide]

Like I said before, Apple cannot guarantee the batteries for that long. Virtually all batteries that are truly faulty will fail within the first year of the warranty. Failures after that are due to the battery's natural life cycle being depleted. LITHIUM ION BATTERIES HAVE A LIFE CYCLE OF FIVE HUNDRED CHARGES AND NOTHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT AT PRESENT. No other batteries can provide appropriate charge life or load current, so choosing another battery chemistry that has a longer lifetime is not an option. Apple should not be responsible for the replacement of batteries that have simply expended its lifetime.

3. Make the out of Warranty battery replacement program valid Worldwide

It's a matter of time.

But ultimately they should redesign the product to allow the user to replace the battery themselves.

You'd get a unit that runs hotter, is heavier and bulkier, is more expensive, and will be made out of ugly plastic instead of looking good. When the battery is easy enough to change anyway, I'm OK with things the way they are.

Like I said, I'm done replying to Vanilla's posts. You keep repeating the same thing over and over again as canon even though we give you reasonable arguments as to why you are at the best, impatient and unreasonable, and at the worst, flat out WRONG.

madamimadam
Jan 3, 2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
You'd get a unit that runs hotter

Runs hotter is VERY correct... the whole back plate of the iPod, as you know, is Metal and does a good job of disepating the heat... esp. during a full recopy of songs.

Vanilla
Jan 3, 2004, 04:03 PM
DISCLAIMER
Firstly let me make it clear – so as not to offend certain individuals on this board – that compared to President Mugabe’s oppression of the white farmers and ruthless extermination of any semblance of a political opposition in Zimbabwe this grievance I have with Apple’s iPod is completely insignificant.

Daveman Deluxe
I keep repeating my point because I feel that you guys are simply refusing to accept the blindingly obvious, namely that selling a battery driven piece of hardware with no clear means of replacing the battery when required is plain stupid and an accident waiting to happen.

Latching on to a website that provides an explanation how to break into the unit and replace the battery is not evidence that my point is invalid, on the contrary it actually confirms my grievance.

When Apple’s iPod user manual provides a section explaining how to replace the battery you will have a point, but until then using an obscure website offering a hack as evidence of ease of replacement is laughable.

Also, as interesting as it was to read about the issues surrounding a Lithium Ion battery (and truthfully it was) it’s completely irrelevant to my central argument, which is that if the iPod design had provided a means of replacing the battery in the first place the very real issues of lithium ion batteries would not have been as severe as they are.

And please, less of the “Users outside of the USA be patient”. We in the UK already suffer an iPhoto package that has NEVER had the ability to create/print photo albums; is three years in your opinion long enough? I haven’t even mentioned the crippled Sherlock application or lack of the iTunes shop etc. So now we must add to the “be patient” list a battery replacement program should we? Cheers.

Madamimadam
I didn’t mention my cellphone warranty because it is actually one year here in the UK. Sorry.

My point was that when and if my battery runs down I can walk down to the nearest Vodafone shop – whose shop frontage infests London’s high streets about as severely as Starbucks – purchase a new one and go home and install it. Simple. Not so with the fabled iPod.

As for the extended Warranty I agree that it’s very good value but:
1. It’s a shame that in truth it’s a mandatory requirement to cover a design flaw
2. If you are in the UK you can’t actually purchase this!!! Daveman Deluxe, if your still reading, I’ll add this to the “be patient” list shall I??

Well there you go. I believe that marketing a battery driven hardware item without the means of replacing the battery and then offering a return & replace policy for said battery together with an extended warranty only to US residents and not publicising any of this is bad customer service.

The Apple evangelists out there feel strongly that I am over reacting and also appear to have an inside track into the design department of Apple sufficient to belittle any suggestions that Apple actually offer a back panel that slides off to allow the user to replace the battery themselves. Furthermore any non-US residents are regarded as simply impatient when we actually rise up out of our apathy and dare to suggest that we be on equal footing with our US brethren.

I’ll leave it to the rest of you to decide who has the moral high ground here and will refrain from posting further on this matter. Is that a smile I see Daveman? ;-)

As for you Madamimadam, it was a pleasure conversing with you, I trust the weather is somewhat better where you are than what I am currently suffering here in the UK and wish you – and Daveman – all the best for 2004.

Vanilla

Raidiant
Jan 3, 2004, 11:16 PM
I believe there is a website about opening the ibook and fixing the hinge yourself great website you only need a degree in electronics to do it

and apples were supposed to be easy, heh I rather own a PC and have it crash godamn everyday at least I know its a software problem not an hardware problem.

sushi
Jan 4, 2004, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Vanilla
Daveman Deluxe
I keep repeating my point because I feel that you guys are simply refusing to accept the blindingly obvious, namely that selling a battery driven piece of hardware with no clear means of replacing the battery when required is plain stupid and an accident waiting to happen.
Unfortunately, this is a design issue. Apple had two options:

a. Design a unit with a replaceable battery...but at a cost of both weight and size.

b. Design a smaller device, like they did, with a non-replaceable battery.

Apple chose the later, for which myself and many others are greatful for their decision.

IMHO, as long as you can get a new battery for it, either by doing it yourself, or by sending it to Apple, it's no big deal. I much prefer the benefits of a smaller and sleeker device that once every couple of years become an inconvenience when I have to replace the battery.

For those who want a replaceable battery, if that is a key characteristic of the player that you want, then maybe you should consider looking at a different product.

Sushi

kesseldawg
Jan 4, 2004, 10:12 AM
Unfortunately, my friend, it is YOU who doesn't get it, although I would not go so far as to call you an ass. The lawyers don't make out in a case like this as there is likely no monetary penalty for them to get paid. As for the iPod problem, nowhere in the manual does it say that you can only charge the iPod approx 14,000 times (true) before the battery dies and nowhere does it say to let it run down. Consumers should be told this. That the warranty is a year but does not explain what I have stated above does not make the consumer an ass.

Originally posted by rdowns
I've read abouth these potential class action suits. The only ones who will make out are the lawyers.

If the iBook MB is faulty, Apple deserves to get sued if they've not stepped up to the plate.

As for the iPod, all I can say are the people are a bunch of asses. Warranty not long enough? Almost all electronics carry a one year warranty.

Battery problems? Don't seem to be widespread but definitely a loud bunch who are affected. Apple finally stepped up to the plate with a battery replacement program and there is a less expensive DIY alternative.

Is it me or does Apple get slammed much more than their much larger competitors?

Flowbee
Jan 4, 2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by kesseldawg
As for the iPod problem, nowhere in the manual does it say that you can only charge the iPod approx 14,000 times (true) before the battery dies...

14,000 times?? Hmmm... if I charge my iPod once per day, it should last... 38 years!! Woo Hoo... :rolleyes:

madamimadam
Jan 4, 2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by kesseldawg As for the iPod problem, nowhere in the manual does it say that you can only charge the iPod approx 14,000 times (true) before the battery dies and nowhere does it say to let it run down.

They probably don't mention that you have to run down the battery because you are not supposed to.

As for 14000 times.... I think it is a few less times than that; maybe 1400.

Daveman Deluxe
Jan 4, 2004, 04:18 PM
It's not 14,000 or even 1,400. It's 500.

hob
Jan 5, 2004, 09:59 AM
how do you know it's 500??

although, 500 would be consistant with the 18 month thing... approx. 1 charge per day...

Hob

gopher
Jan 5, 2004, 11:41 AM
I suggest anyone having complaints about the iPod battery to read
http://www.ipodbatteryfaq.com/

There are many solutions out there to extend its life and even to have battery juice when it runs out without even opening the case! The Neistat brothers complaint was pointless other than the fact Apple Support didn't tell them about the battery adapter from Belkin made available five months prior to their complaint. They could have just added that to their iPod and been happy.

hulugu
Jan 5, 2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Vanilla
In terms of a straight transaction between the user and Apple in the purchase of an iPod, the battery issue is indeed an injustice. When compared to the Middle East crisis, the Iraq situation, the oppression in Tibet etc, etc it is of course so insignificant as to be laughable.

I was not aware that one had to gauge the priority of ones grievance on what is a Mac forum against Global political/economic crises.

Frankly if we go down that path I cannot see how any problem from whitespots on a Powerbook to perceived speed issues in Powermacs can be sensibly discussed without someone killing the conversation stone dead by throwing in a comparison with a current political or economic crisis.

However I do take the spirit of your point on board and will attempt to resort to a more traditionally sober, semi-apologetic British stance in future.

Vanilla

I think using the word injustice (just one example of overly used phrases) to describe this situation is hyperbole, and you can sensibly discuss anything including the Powerbook problems, or your iPod problem without resorting to overtly dramatic words. I appreciate that you understand. I hope that Apple does you better, I'm actually surprised this has turned into such a problem.

pablol
Jan 5, 2004, 03:57 PM
Regarding the iBook problem... some of you are saying "get it fixed under warranty" or "should have bought AppleCare". Well, I did buy AppleCare and yes, Apple does fix it. But my Logic Board has died twice now in 9 months. And upon "fixing" it last time, they sent me a "new" logic board with a bad Ethernet port. So make that three trips to the Apple repair depot and it hasn't even been a year! That's a lot of downtime and inconvenience, and I had to buy AppleCare for fear that the same thing will keep happening. Clearly, there is something wrong with the computers. It's easy for those who aren't having problems to say "it's a small margin of error—deal with it" when they don't have to deal with it. Apple needs to acknowledge the problem and do something about it besides keep "fixing" the computer with another part that will break again a few months later.

madamimadam
Jan 5, 2004, 05:14 PM
Something about battery replacement plans (http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/top_news_item.cfm?NewsID=7521)

DTI's DJ
Jan 5, 2004, 08:15 PM
My iPod works! Am I one of the only ones that has a working one? I've accidentally beat it up a alot and it wotks good as new!:D

hob
Jan 5, 2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by pablol
Regarding the iBook problem... Clearly, there is something wrong with the computers. It's easy for those who aren't having problems to say "it's a small margin of error—deal with it" when they don't have to deal with it. Apple needs to acknowledge the problem and do something about it besides keep "fixing" the computer with another part that will break again a few months later.

I think that's the crux of the problem - that's what's got everyone so mad!! If Apple would only admit their mistake, then we wouldn't all be hopping mad like this!!

Hob

madamimadam
Jan 6, 2004, 04:33 PM
This isn't your week, is it Vanilla.

iTunes music store for Europe as well

hulugu
Jan 6, 2004, 04:36 PM
I know, I know I can unsubscribe. Sorry.
Move along.

madamimadam
Jan 6, 2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by hulugu
I know, I know I can unsubscribe. Sorry.
Move along.

Ok, you just trying to up your posts?

hulugu
Jan 6, 2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by madamimadam
Ok, you just trying to up your posts?

I hadn't thought of that, but yes! I want a little icon too.
Acutally I was being facetious, I just went through all the posts after ignoring the thread for a while. Vanilla's having a bad time of it though, but it's good to hear iTunes for Europe, not that I care for myself, but I think it's good they will get the same experience and more people buying songs on iTMS is a good thing.

ThomasJefferson
Jan 6, 2004, 05:56 PM
Weel, thanks to all of you that actually posted on the topic of iPod and iBook complaints. My iBook 600 has been showing its age and I was considering a new one, but have decided to wait. The logic board and screen issues concern me. I can wait a bit longer before I drop the $$.

For awhile there- I was considering starting a thread called, "the squeeky noise/gap is a feature" to try and attract all the trolls. Blissfully, the iPod thread seems to have accomplished that.

Hope Apple addresses the problem for you.
Thanks again ...

Vanilla
Feb 11, 2004, 06:53 AM
Just as an FYI, the iPod battery issue is now being noted in the UK:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3477497.stm

Note I am not gloating, I am not happy about this, but Apple have only themselves to blame for this state of affairs.

I have no problem in owning a product run by a battery that will degrade over time. Of course batteries degrade. I own a cellphone by way of example. When the battery degrades I go down to my local cellphone shop, buy a new battery and install it myself. This is the norm for all electrical items I own that are powered by batteries.

But to Market a battery driven product costing hundreds of pounds that has no facility to allow the user to replace its power source simply, other than handing it back to the manufacturer either under warranty if it happens within one year or for a fee if it fails outside of the warranty (US only), is just stupid. Not to mention that the out of warranty service is STILL not available in the UK.

Look, its a battery driven product, re-design the thing so that a user can purchase Apple replacement batteries from resellers and install it themselves. End of problem.
Vanilla

billyboy
Feb 11, 2004, 07:47 AM
Maybe there would have been even more problems of a different nature if the design had been any different.

I am looking at my cordless mouse, and although it isnt exactly flimsy, it does flex where the casing is removable to get to the rechargeable battery. Judging by the adverts, people go crazy dancing when they have their iPod, so that requires a fairly bombproof case, and in that instance, the iPod design is spot on.

Also, it is evident that for most people, the batteries do last if they are looked after. It is the new trend though to place responsibility for everything on the shoulders of someone else. Apple taught the world how to use a mouse, do they really have to teach everyone how to treat a battery that is found in thousands of other electronic devices?

I suppose a huge red note in the manual would help, but really, most people dont care to read up about something like battery care, they just assume stuff - rechargeable means it has a memory, or maybe it works better if it is left on constant charge, or whatever other battery care techniques have come and gone over the years. Then when they are down the road and the battery is suffering, then they maybe read up about what they have been doing wrong, and kabaam. A class action.

kiwi_the_iwik
Feb 11, 2004, 07:53 AM
OK - After being bombarded by non-Apple afficianados regarding the (lack of) battery life of the new iPods, I've finally waded through this thread and have come to some interesting decisions...

I'm not afraid of opening my iPod to replace the battery myself AT ALL.

And because of that, I have absolutely NO reservations in buying - or RECOMMENDING to anyone interested in buying - an iPod.

Think of my line of work - I'm a cameraman by trade, who relies on Li-ion and Ni-Cd rechargable batteries to supply power to my camera - with each one lasting a little under an hour with a full charge. On average, my 5 batteries (of which I cycle useage to even out and extend their life expectancy) have to be replaced at least every 2 years - at a cost of £300 EACH...

Therefore, I find it not disconcerting in the slightest that I would have to replace a Li-ion battery in the worlds' sexiest MP3 player - considering it would have previously given me HOURS of pleasure in the process (AND the replacement battery would have ONLY cost me @ £30 in adjusted currency...).

:cool:

hulugu
Feb 11, 2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Vanilla
Just as an FYI, the iPod battery issue is now being noted in the UK:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3477497.stm

Note I am not gloating, I am not happy about this, but Apple have only themselves to blame for this state of affairs.

I have no problem in owning a product run by a battery that will degrade over time. Of course batteries degrade. I own a cellphone by way of example. When the battery degrades I go down to my local cellphone shop, buy a new battery and install it myself. This is the norm for all electrical items I own that are powered by batteries.

But to Market a battery driven product costing hundreds of pounds that has no facility to allow the user to replace its power source simply, other than handing it back to the manufacturer either under warranty if it happens within one year or for a fee if it fails outside of the warranty (US only), is just stupid. Not to mention that the out of warranty service is STILL not available in the UK.

Look, its a battery driven product, re-design the thing so that a user can purchase Apple replacement batteries from resellers and install it themselves. End of problem.
Vanilla

First, how much does a battery for your cellphone cost? I checked on mine, and guess what it costs 39.95 and I don't believe it is even covered under a warrenty, but if it is I can't imagine that warrenty goes past a year.
Is it annoying that a dead battery requires dismantling the device? Yeah a little, but I don't remember Apple forcing anyone to buy an iPod, in fact I believe it is the customer's [B]responsibility[B/] to recognize a product's inherent flaws, so long as they're not hidden. The exploding Pinto for example.
The iPod had an internal battery that could not be easily replaced, this was true with the first 5GB iPod and is true now. The product faulted for a few people, who I am sure, didn't treat their battery correctly and are now complaining, and now suing. :rollseyes:
It reminds me of a friend who would wait until his car was just out of gas, and only when running on fumes would he fill it up. He did this so often that his fuel pumps kept failing, he went through 3 or 4 before he went and talked to a lawyer who said he could bring up a class action suit, except the company pointed out to him (as I had) that the fuel pump requires fuel as a lubricant, without it the pump dries up and fails. Whose fault is it? The car company who even stated in the manual how to care for such things? Or my dumbass friend?
Did Apple make a mistake in designing the iPod without a removable battery, in hindsight yes, not because it was poor design, but rather because they did not foresee the litigiousness of the average consumer and their inability to read a manual or take care of something they spent hundreds of dollars for.
And for the last time, you can replace the battery on your own:

http://www.ipodbattery.com/

Lastly, I'm not defending just Apple, I hate the overt and constant litigiousness of our modern society. We're so damn busy suing each other for every little perceived slight, for every opportunity where common sense should have ruled. Consumers are becoming more and more irresponsible to the point of blind stupidity, resulting in such rediculousness as warning labels on hair dryers reading 'do not use in shower.'
Have we really become so stupid?

gopher
Feb 11, 2004, 09:19 PM
I see the litigous people as not having done enough research. First off:

1. Lithium batteries are heat sensitive. They drain quicker when not between 50 F and 85 F. So if you have the battery out in the cold, of course it will run for maybe 4 instead of 8 hours. Same if you put it against something hot like in your pants pocket which is next to the 98.6 F body temperature if you have tight jeans.

2. Now there are two external attachment options. One that takes standard AA batteries including rechargeable AA batteries and is compatible with iPods made since May 2003, and itself was made available when those iPods came out. Belkin makes it. For $60 you have an unlimited battery replacement life with standard AA batteries. That's even cheaper than Apple's $99 replacement program, and does not require your losing your stored songs on the iPod. Not to mention it brings the iPod's battery life to 20 hours! Next there is an external lithium pack which works both on the older generation and newer generation iPods that was just announced at Macworld.

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=1&Product_Id=148969

http://www.batterytech.com/ipod_info/iPod_info.htm


For more info visit http://www.ipodbatteryfaq.com/

broaduscalvin
Feb 20, 2004, 10:11 AM
why is the ipod's battery life so much shorter compared to some of the other players that have been released recently, from rio, iriver, etc. ? The weight difference seems negligible. Is apple going to fix this?

gopher
Feb 20, 2004, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by broaduscalvin
why is the ipod's battery life so much shorter compared to some of the other players that have been released recently, from rio, iriver, etc. ? The weight difference seems negligible. Is apple going to fix this?

Shorter? 8 hours is shorter? Nothing to fix there. Firewire takes more power than USB, but then again is much faster. Even USB 2 while its official spec is 480 Mbps only goes about 150 Mbps. And with the half hour skip protection and brighter screen I don't know how you are going to be able to get more battery life. If you aren't getting the optimal battery life, you are either:

1. keeping the iPod in an area that has too much cold or warmth. This is a problem for all Lithium batteries
2. attempting to recharge while it hasn't drained at least 50% but not more than 99%
3. are frequently switching the songs in the player (like once every 5 minutes) instead of once every half hour.

For more on the iPod battery and alternatives to keep it going longer visit:
http://www.ipodbatteryfaq.html

mikewestlake
Feb 20, 2004, 01:02 PM
My son’s iBook purchased about 14 months ago started having screen problems. If you pushed the screen back beyond 90 degrees the backlight would go out. Everything else worked fine. No software or startup problems.
My wife took the laptop to the Mall of America Apple Store for repair (I was home sick with the flu).
She called me from the store practically in tears. The Apple “sales” person was trying to talk her into spending $50 bucks on backing up the hard drive. Not that backing up is ever a bad idea but he was doing everything but telling her she was stupid for not doing it. She explained her frustration and confusion. I told her that the problem has hardware and there was no need for a back up because all of the vital data were on our other Mac. She asked to speak to a manager and complained about the sales person’s attitude and the policy of pressuring rather than explaining the back up procedure. My wife is a consummate sales person with a passion for customer service and she felt the need to explain the poor way she was being treated.
I remember my mom saying, “Never piss off the chef because he’ll spit in your food.”
You can probably see what’s coming. When I picked up the iBook from the store on Saturday and fired it up in the store I got the beautiful sign in/registration screen that I hadn’t seen since we fired it up the day I brought it home.
The hard drive was empty except for System 10.2 and the applications Apple puts there (they didn’t even bother to install Panther!).
Sitting there at the Genius Bar with the store manager looking over my shoulder, he admitted it was very unusual. He looked the repair order and according to the Apple technician’s notes the iBook would not boot up.
Is it Apple’s policy to erase a customer’s hard drive if they cannot get it to boot up during a repair or was it empty when it got there? Suspicious.
Now I know I should have requested a backup and a hundred things could have happened to the laptop while in Apple’s hands, being shipped, etc. But I’m feeling that something malicious happened.
Any ideas on how I can check the drive for any record of system software being deleted or otherwise messed with? Anyone at Apple I can talk to?
Thanks!

gopher
Feb 20, 2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by mikewestlake
My son’s iBook purchased about 14 months ago started having screen problems. If you pushed the screen back beyond 90 degrees the backlight would go out. Everything else worked fine. No software or startup problems.
My wife took the laptop to the Mall of America Apple Store for repair (I was home sick with the flu).
She called me from the store practically in tears. The Apple “sales” person was trying to talk her into spending $50 bucks on backing up the hard drive. Not that backing up is ever a bad idea but he was doing everything but telling her she was stupid for not doing it. She explained her frustration and confusion. I told her that the problem has hardware and there was no need for a back up because all of the vital data were on our other Mac. She asked to speak to a manager and complained about the sales person’s attitude and the policy of pressuring rather than explaining the back up procedure. My wife is a consummate sales person with a passion for customer service and she felt the need to explain the poor way she was being treated.
I remember my mom saying, “Never piss off the chef because he’ll spit in your food.”
You can probably see what’s coming. When I picked up the iBook from the store on Saturday and fired it up in the store I got the beautiful sign in/registration screen that I hadn’t seen since we fired it up the day I brought it home.
The hard drive was empty except for System 10.2 and the applications Apple puts there (they didn’t even bother to install Panther!).
Sitting there at the Genius Bar with the store manager looking over my shoulder, he admitted it was very unusual. He looked the repair order and according to the Apple technician’s notes the iBook would not boot up.
Is it Apple’s policy to erase a customer’s hard drive if they cannot get it to boot up during a repair or was it empty when it got there? Suspicious.
Now I know I should have requested a backup and a hundred things could have happened to the laptop while in Apple’s hands, being shipped, etc. But I’m feeling that something malicious happened.
Any ideas on how I can check the drive for any record of system software being deleted or otherwise messed with? Anyone at Apple I can talk to?
Thanks!

AppleCare - they have a customer relations office at 1-800-APLCARE which can be requested once you start to speak to a customer service representative. Oh and by the way, if your iBook's serial number matches the repair program listed here, it won't matter you are out of AppleCare:

http://www.apple.com/support/ibook/faq/

cschilderink
Feb 20, 2004, 01:41 PM
iBook's have always been notoriously known for faulty logic boards. Also you can't expect the video to be great on a entry class laptop.

iPod's Apple definately needs to do something about the battery. The battery story is spreading and fast and they need to announce some sort of new reliable batter before it starts to hurt sales.

gopher
Feb 20, 2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by cschilderink
iBook's have always been notoriously known for faulty logic boards. Also you can't expect the video to be great on a entry class laptop.

iPod's Apple definately needs to do something about the battery. The battery story is spreading and fast and they need to announce some sort of new reliable batter before it starts to hurt sales.

Please read my prior posts about the iPod battery in this thread.

There is NO PROBLEM WITH THE IPOD.

Read http://www.ipodbatteryfaq.com/

and point it out to those who believe there is a problem with the iPod battery. The problem is a myth that has spread because of the LIES told by the Neistat brothers. They didn't register their domain until A WEEK AFTER Apple started the iPod warranty, 5 months after Belkin released the external battery pack for the iPod which takes STANDARD AA BATTERIES which was also released simultaneously with the 3rd Generation iPods. BT even has an external battery pack for older iPods. The iPod battery problem is a big lie. And those saying the problem exists in the media are nothing but irresponsible journalists who don't do enough research.

Read http://www.ipodbatteryfaq.com/

Learn about Lithium batteries, and you will realize the press is just jealous.

army_guy
Feb 20, 2004, 02:29 PM
There is a problem well the 1st generation ones anyway.

gopher
Feb 20, 2004, 03:19 PM
What problem? OK, it might be able to handle hot or cold, but no Lithium battery can. Just reset the iPod (holding play and menu simultaneously for several seconds) when connected to power, and charge overnight. You should be ready to go. That's why there are belt packs to hold the iPod and protect it against the elements.

broaduscalvin
Feb 20, 2004, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by gopher
Shorter? 8 hours is shorter? Nothing to fix there. Firewire takes more power than USB, but then again is much faster. Even USB 2 while its official spec is 480 Mbps only goes about 150 Mbps. And with the half hour skip protection and brighter screen I don't know how you are going to be able to get more battery life. If you aren't getting the optimal battery life, you are either:

1. keeping the iPod in an area that has too much cold or warmth. This is a problem for all Lithium batteries
2. attempting to recharge while it hasn't drained at least 50% but not more than 99%
3. are frequently switching the songs in the player (like once every 5 minutes) instead of once every half hour.

For more on the iPod battery and alternatives to keep it going longer visit:
http://www.ipodbatteryfaq.html




The 40GB iriver

http://www.iriveramerica.com/estore/ihp-140.htm

has a 16 hour battery life! 8 hours is definitely shorter!

So my question is ... what's stopping the iPod?

gopher
Feb 20, 2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by broaduscalvin
The 40GB iriver

http://www.iriveramerica.com/estore/ihp-140.htm

has a 16 hour battery life! 8 hours is definitely shorter!

So my question is ... what's stopping the iPod?

No Firewire

6.5 ounces

The 40 GB iPod is 6.2 ounces, and the 20 GB iPod is 5.6 ounces.

Probably does not have as easy to use interface
No AAC compatibility

And thanks to Belkin, I get 20 hours battery life on my iPod.

BagelTycoon
Feb 20, 2004, 09:28 PM
I'm slammin' happy about my new 20GB iPod, but haven't decided whether to spend another $59 for the 2-year warranty.

Since it's basically a hard drive (and hard drives have been known to go on the blink), is it worth getting?

What gets me is that the warranty is only 2 years, not 3 like other Mac hardware.

And since those wild and crazy Neistat bros. (http://www.ipodsdirtysecret.com/) discovered that their battery didn't last more than 18 months, am I really just paying for 6 months of extra battery replacement under the warranty until I hit 2 years?

hulugu
Feb 21, 2004, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by mikewestlake
My son’s iBook purchased about 14 months ago started having screen problems....No software or startup problems.
My wife took the laptop to the Mall of America Apple Store for repair...The Apple “sales” person was trying to talk her into spending $50 bucks on backing up the hard drive. Not that backing up is ever a bad idea but he was doing everything but telling her she was stupid for not doing it....I told her that the problem has hardware and there was no need for a back up because all of the vital data were on our other Mac. She asked to speak to a manager and complained about the sales person’s attitude and the policy of pressuring rather than explaining the back up procedure....
I remember my mom saying, “Never piss off the chef because he’ll spit in your food.”...When I picked up the iBook from the store on Saturday and fired it up in the store I got the beautiful sign in/registration screen that I hadn’t seen since we fired it up the day I brought it home.
The hard drive was empty except for System 10.2 and the applications Apple puts there (they didn’t even bother to install Panther!).
Sitting there at the Genius Bar with the store manager looking over my shoulder, he admitted it was very unusual. He looked the repair order and according to the Apple technician’s notes the iBook would not boot up.
Is it Apple’s policy to erase a customer’s hard drive if they cannot get it to boot up during a repair or was it empty when it got there? Suspicious.
Now I know I should have requested a backup and a hundred things could have happened to the laptop while in Apple’s hands, being shipped, etc. But I’m feeling that something malicious happened.
Any ideas on how I can check the drive for any record of system software being deleted or otherwise messed with? Anyone at Apple I can talk to?
Thanks!


You can check the drive, but it's a complicated procedure and really won't tell you much. Possibly the guy pulled your drive because he thought the problem might be there, realized it wasn't, put it back in and nuked the data to be sure that wasn't the problem. Or maybe the guy's a jerk. When I sent my Powerbook in they did ask if I wanted to pay for hard-drive backup and I didn't because I have it all done on my iPod, and they stated they were not responsible for any data loss, which I understand. I think it's possible the guy was just being a jerk, but you waste more time than necessary trying to figure it out. Throw Panther back on (I don't know why they didn't do that) and be done with it, and since you've let the manager know someone is already in trouble, the Apple managers appear to be pretty hardcore.

[edit, I tried to not quote the entire post and I failed.]

ethernet76
Feb 21, 2004, 05:05 AM
Apple has a history of instead of fixing the broken, they'll send you a new one. My 5 gb iPod was sent back for a extremely loose scroll wheel and they ended up just sending me a new one.

It's a lot easier to give you one they fixed 5 months ago, than to try and fix yours and 30 others in a short period of time while trying to get them back in a timely fashion.

Check serial numbers, see if they match the original iBook you bought.

gopher
Feb 21, 2004, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by BagelTycoon
I'm slammin' happy about my new 20GB iPod, but haven't decided whether to spend another $59 for the 2-year warranty.

Since it's basically a hard drive (and hard drives have been known to go on the blink), is it worth getting?

What gets me is that the warranty is only 2 years, not 3 like other Mac hardware.

And since those wild and crazy Neistat bros. (http://www.ipodsdirtysecret.com/) discovered that their battery didn't last more than 18 months, am I really just paying for 6 months of extra battery replacement under the warranty until I hit 2 years?
You are paying for any replacement of the iPod regardless of whether or not the battery has failed. Even if the drive itself has failed, it will be replaced under that warranty. Remember, it is replacement. Any songs you put on the iPod, any data you put on it is potentially gone if it has to be sent in under warranty.

mollymalone
Mar 1, 2004, 04:36 AM
My ipod quit after 14 months and will not be resurrected. In Ireland, they are even more expensive than in the U.S., with the cheapest older models costing the guts of €500. After shelling out that amount of money on something that lasted only 1 year, I refuse to compound my folly by paying for battery replacement every year. No, I have learned a valuable lesson here and that is not to choose something that is all design and no substance.
Someone will come along and do the Ipod better than Apple has, and I will be there to buy this superior product as soon as it comes out. Do I sound bitter? Well, that's because I AM!
p.s. Those of you whose ipods still work ....it's only a matter of time and then you will share in everyone else's anger. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Wash!!
Mar 1, 2004, 08:42 AM
My ipod quit after 14 months and will not be resurrected. In Ireland, they are even more expensive than in the U.S., with the cheapest older models costing the guts of €500. After shelling out that amount of money on something that lasted only 1 year, I refuse to compound my folly by paying for battery replacement every year. No, I have learned a valuable lesson here and that is not to choose something that is all design and no substance.
Someone will come along and do the Ipod better than Apple has, and I will be there to buy this superior product as soon as it comes out. Do I sound bitter? Well, that's because I AM!
p.s. Those of you whose ipods still work ....it's only a matter of time and then you will share in everyone else's anger. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I have my 15gig ipod for about a year now an the battery life still the same you have to accept the fact that it is a HD and like any other HD it eventually fail, I'm feel sorry for you that your ipod die, but to wait to some does it better you better not hold your breath, because others had try and none have been able to match the ipod...

sebisworld
Mar 1, 2004, 09:26 AM
Hello,
I've had a lot of trouble with my old iBook(s). I had it/them repaired three times, stolen twice on the way back from Apple, but in the end I managed to get a maxed out modell because of all my troubles which then got stolen again (that was the second time mentioned above) and thus, I got this really cool iMac which i would never ever trade in again - and I even got money back.

To put it in short: I started out with an iBook 12', Combo Drive, 600 Mhz G3, AirPort. Now I have an 1GHz iMac, 17' Screen, 1 GB RAM, 4x SuperDrive, Airport Extreme and an extra 500 Euro to spend.

I LOVE logic board problems. It's like free updates for the rest of your life.

Sebastian

BTW: Could the page number links be put on the left again? It was just more convienient.