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MacNut
Jan 5, 2004, 02:11 PM
Rose: I Bet On Baseball
ESPN.com

In an exclusive interview with ABCNEWS that will air Thursday, Pete Rose admits to betting on baseball.

After denying it for nearly 15 years, baseball legend Pete Rose is admitting that he bet on baseball and on his own team while managing the Cincinnati Reds.

wdlove
Jan 5, 2004, 03:02 PM
I fondly remember following the career of Johnny Bench & Pete Rose growing up in Ohio. Pete has been working hard at trying to rehabilitate himself for the last 15 years. His dream is to enter the baseball hall of fame. It will be interesting to see if he offers an apology and if it helps.

Sayhey
Jan 5, 2004, 03:12 PM
I guess I just don't know the reasoning of the folks negotiating this "understanding" with Rose. I don't see how, given Baseball's continued stance on the "Black Sox" scandal that Rose can now be welcomed back. I grew up booing Rose as one of the best of the opponents, but always respecting his skills and dedication to the game. Betting on Baseball calls into question everything the game is about. If Pete can be embraced and maybe even make it into the Hall of Fame then Shoeless Joe should be canonized.

jayscheuerle
Jan 5, 2004, 03:43 PM
These days, gambling is considered an "addictive" behavior, one which can be treated, yet we're holding it to a harsher standard (in Pete's case) than we are with athletes who use and abuse other addictive substances and get busted.

A pro athlete who snorts coke from a stripper's tits gets a wrist slap and maybe a 1 game suspension. Pete Rose bets on baseball (and never on his own team losing) and gets banned for life.

Seems like a double standard which places doing illegal drugs as being less severe than betting on a ball-game.

Strange priorities here...

Sayhey
Jan 5, 2004, 04:31 PM
Just a question. If Rose denied ever betting on Baseball and has lied about it for over 15 years, why should I now believe him when he says he never bet on his team to lose?

Base on his stats, Rose should obviously be in the Hall of Fame. I guess all I'm saying is if Pete is allowed in then Shoeless Joe should be let in as well, if not first.

jxyama
Jan 5, 2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle
These days, gambling is considered an "addictive" behavior, one which can be treated, yet we're holding it to a harsher standard (in Pete's case) than we are with athletes who use and abuse other addictive substances and get busted.

A pro athlete who snorts coke from a stripper's tits gets a wrist slap and maybe a 1 game suspension. Pete Rose bets on baseball (and never on his own team losing) and gets banned for life.

Seems like a double standard which places doing illegal drugs as being less severe than betting on a ball-game.

Strange priorities here...

i don't agree with this often referred sentiment - though i can certainly understand where it comes from.

in general, abusing drugs/alcohol is just as destructive as gambling and in that sense, i can understand how there seems to be a double standard.

however, the key here is that he bet on baseball. betting on the very game you are a part of, regardless of whether it was against your team, for your team or a completely unrelated baseball game, calls into question the basic principle and premise of the game. i think the game of baseball has every right to differentiate the punishment for gambling on the game itself as opposed to other justifiably evil addictions such as substance abuse.

gwuMACaddict
Jan 5, 2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Sayhey
Just a question. If Rose denied ever betting on Baseball and has lied about it for over 15 years, why should I now believe him when he says he never bet on his team to lose?

Base on his stats, Rose should obviously be in the Hall of Fame. I guess all I'm saying is if Pete is allowed in then Shoeless Joe should be let in as well, if not first.

he was never accused of betting against his own team. the report that fay vincent put together was always very clear about this. he did however, bet FOR his own team... i guess pete feels there is a distinction here...

i think he does deserve to be in the hall...

GetGo
Jan 5, 2004, 06:31 PM
If you guys believe Rose about not betting on his own team when he has inside information, you must believe in the tooth fairy. This guy does not deserve to be in the hall of fame. The other players that do drugs and stuff are not jeopardizing the integrity of the game. Betting on baseball could have ruined the game for a long time.

Macpoops
Jan 5, 2004, 07:43 PM
What he did as a manager and what he did as a player are 2 different things. He was an amazing player one of the best ever. He was a scumbag as a manager. Sure he bet on baseball, but How many times has Darrel Strawberry's been caught with drugs? Quite a few and he wasn't banned for life. Hell Steriods is a bigger disgrace to the game then betting ever was. The records set by those like Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb are crap now because of steriods and other performance enhancing drugs. And now your going to stick a man who played by the rules during his playing career and ****ed up during his managing career....Please it's crap. What he did was a immoral but it wasn't illegal. On the other hand the drugs in baseball are illegal yet we let it go.

Sayhey
Jan 5, 2004, 08:58 PM
I think Rose deserved to be in the Hall for his career as a player. If I could decide this issue I would make both Rose and Jackson eligible for election to the Hall and keep the ban on Rose's connection to the game. He should never be in a position where he could effect the outcome of a game.

One more thing, I'm not much of a gambler, but I know one can bet on a team to win and do so with a point spread. If we are to take Rose at his word that he only bet on his team to win, did he do so with a spread? I think Rose has shown his word is not good for a heck of a lot. Give him the credit he deserves as a player, but keep him away from the game.

jayscheuerle
Jan 5, 2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by GetGo
The other players that do drugs and stuff are not jeopardizing the integrity of the game.

Baseball probably lost its integrity before boxing did. Between steroid abuse and the fact that you can buy your way to a championship, this game has been a beautiful reflection of the American way.

I think Pete should be judged on the fact that he was a naturally great player. If you want to asterisk him, fine, but he'll always be remembered as a great player, because that's what he was.

KBFinFan
Jan 5, 2004, 10:25 PM
I really think that even if he did bet on his own team while playing for the team he should be allowed to go into the HOF.

He was a great player and ranks among the all time greats in all sports. He made some mistakes, but hey, don't we all? Selig needs to get his act together and let Rose back into the sport that he gave so much to.

jxyama
Jan 6, 2004, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by KBFinFan
He was a great player and ranks among the all time greats in all sports. He made some mistakes, but hey, don't we all? Selig needs to get his act together and let Rose back into the sport that he gave so much to.

no disagreement on his accomplishments as a player. however, baseball would have been fine without pete rose's contributions on the field. however, baseball could certainly do without him betting on the game.

i am personally against him being in the hall of fame - for being in the hall is the greatest ind. honor and should not given to one who jeopardized the integrity of the game. pete rose is not the one to even judge whether betting FOR his team does not violate the integrity of the game or not. he must accept the consequences of his own actions, regardless of what he did, how he feels about them AND how others using drugs/steroids are treated.

the only mention of him in the hall should be his accomplishments as a player - in the records chart, his name next to the line that says "Career Hits Leader." that's enough for him. being enshrined in the hall is a different matter, as far as i'm concerned.

Macpoops
Jan 6, 2004, 02:12 PM
Personally i think the likes of Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire are more disgraceful to the game then someone betting on it. They Bonds is a perfect example just look at photos of him from a few years ago and honestly tell me wasn't on some sort of steriod to bulk him up for his record breaking 70 home run season. Babe Ruth did his 60 homers on nothing more then a diet of booze, tabacco, and god knows what other high calorie food, no performance enhancing drugs, just natural ability and reckless regard for his own heal.
Now all it took was some natural ability and a couple needles in the buttocks. Pete Rose played the game like a man and developed a moral and ethical problem as a manager. He did nothing illegal, in a game where illegal drug use is rampant and in some cases encouraged. Personally i think the whole thing was dumb to begin with. And after 15 years it's even less of an issue. I am amazed the amount of people that have such an adverse reaction in a society where morals and ethics are slowly going the way of the buffalo

Sayhey
Jan 6, 2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Macpoops
Personally i think the likes of Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire are more disgraceful to the game then someone betting on it. They Bonds is a perfect example just look at photos of him from a few years ago and honestly tell me wasn't on some sort of steriod to bulk him up for his record breaking 70 home run season. Babe Ruth did his 60 homers on nothing more then a diet of booze, tabacco, and god knows what other high calorie food, no performance enhancing drugs, just natural ability and reckless regard for his own heal.
Now all it took was some natural ability and a couple needles in the buttocks. Pete Rose played the game like a man and developed a moral and ethical problem as a manager. He did nothing illegal, in a game where illegal drug use is rampant and in some cases encouraged. Personally i think the whole thing was dumb to begin with. And after 15 years it's even less of an issue. I am amazed the amount of people that have such an adverse reaction in a society where morals and ethics are slowly going the way of the buffalo

As a fan of Bonds play let me say that I think steroids are a tremendous problem in all sports, not just Baseball. If and when players test positive for abuse of the substance then I'm all for them being disciplined. I don't care if it is Bonds or Sosa or whoever is caught. I don't, however, assume someone is guilty until they test positive.

Rose was a great player not because of his natural ability. His skills were mediocre at best when he came up. What made Pete the great player he was was a dedication to push his skills beyond his limits. He played all out all the time. I admire him for that.

That does not mean what Rose did was not significant. As Fay Vincent said, what do you do to the integrity of the game when you bet on your own team one day and then not the next. What message are you sending to gamblers? That is if we even accept Rose at his word. Once you go down the road of allowing betting on Baseball, in whatever form, the game is a farce.

As to Rose himself, he lied for 15 years and now I don't believe him for a minute. I can admire him for his baseball accomplishments without agreeing to see him as some poor, picked-upon victim of the Baseball hierarchy. Allow him to voted on for the Hall, but keep him away from the game.

Macpoops
Jan 6, 2004, 03:18 PM
Steriod may be a problem in all sports but it is not nearly as rampant, blatant and accepted as in Baseball. Given the fact that the testing in place is absolute crap when compared to other sports

Sayhey
Jan 6, 2004, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Macpoops
Steriod may be a problem in all sports but it is not nearly as rampant, blatant and accepted as in Baseball. Given the fact that the testing in place is absolute crap when compared to other sports

Sorry, don't buy it for a minute that it isn't just as much or more of a problem in other sports. In Football and Track&Field Sports the benefits of Steroid use are much greater. In baseball it may let you build muscle quicker, but it doesn't let you hit the ball any more times. I'm sure there are abusers in Baseball, not only the wanna be sluggers, but it helps pitchers recover much more quickly than normal so the relievers that come in all the time would benefit from its use. I hope the fools who take the stuff get caught and either get help or banned. Again, I find the presumption that Bonds and McGwire are users of steroids to be outrageous. If you have proof of a positive test, great, otherwise it is only slanderous speculation. I have my own suspicions about quite a number of players in many sports, but that is hardly proof.

Macpoops
Jan 6, 2004, 05:01 PM
If you honestly believe that Barry Bonds went from being the relatively skinny standard baseballplayer type to the musclebound meathead he is today, then you need to look again at how the human bady works. You can't naturally pack on 30-40 pounds of muscle in the time frame in which Barry Bonds did it, it's physically impossible. Look at his career for the most part he went from a good ball player who averaged 33 homeruns a year to hitting 73 in one season without a little help from the sauce. All proof aside common sense is enough to tell you there is something else there. Fan or not you have to question it

jxyama
Jan 6, 2004, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Macpoops
If you honestly believe that Barry Bonds went from being the relatively skinny standard baseballplayer type to the musclebound meathead he is today, then you need to look again at how the human bady works. You can't naturally pack on 30-40 pounds of muscle in the time frame in which Barry Bonds did it, it's physically impossible. Look at his career for the most part he went from a good ball player who averaged 33 homeruns a year to hitting 73 in one season without a little help from the sauce. All proof aside common sense is enough to tell you there is something else there. Fan or not you have to question it

i don't disagree with your original point, but barry back in the 80's was not just a good player. he was a great player. hitting 33 HRs in those days were quite amazing... and he stole bunch of bases and played superb LF back then.

while i think he's juiced as well, he didn't suddenly become a great player. he was already a great player, he's just a different type of a great player now...

Macpoops
Jan 6, 2004, 06:50 PM
Now that is something i can agree on

Sayhey
Jan 6, 2004, 07:14 PM
I've been watching Barry for his whole career and he didn't "just" put on muscle in a very short time. He is an exercise freak who has been doing so since before he was signed by SF. He worked out with Jerry Rice and Roger Craig in his early days here. It maybe he also has taken steroids during that time, but there is no proof he put on the muscle with illegal help. The same can be said of McGwire. If you are a baseball fan you should look at Barry's stats. Other than his 73 home run year he home runs have almost always been in the 35-45 range. Very consistent and not a indication of some major short term power gain. Again it is easy to spread rumors using what you think is "common sense," it is much harder to actually have some facts to back them up.

Rose, on the other hand, cheated and it is a proven fact that he now admits he is guilty of. He has never expressed remorse for his actions or cease to blame others for his problems. I heard Roger Angell on the Newshour make a suggestion concerning Rose that I think is a very good idea. His initial eligibility is up in Dec. of 2005, after that he would have to be voted in by the Veteranís Committee. I think that is a great idea, let his entrance to the Hall be judged by his contemporaries. I think you will find that not all of them are as forgiving as you and I.

Oh, and by the way, congrats to Eck and Molitor, two outstanding talents who made it in today.

Macpoops
Jan 6, 2004, 07:56 PM
OK you don't all of a sudden near double your homerun out put with out some help. Illegally using banned substances is against the law. And no one on gods green earth can deny that there is something abnormal about hitting 73 home runs at the age of 37 without some chemical help. It's plain stupid.

Pete Rose did not Cheat... he bet on baseball. It's not illegal...immoral and unethical, yes but illegal, NO. He did have some control over the outcome of games, yes it is wrong. But not illegal.

Sayhey
Jan 6, 2004, 08:43 PM
Every dugout has a posting that outlines the rules against betting on Baseball including the punishment of a lifetime ban for a manager caught doing so. Rose knew the rules and he broke them. That's called cheating. If you mean that he did nothing to influence the game to win bets, then that is a lot more than I'm willing to say on the word of someone who has lied about it for the last fourteen years. He also is admitting just enough to sell his new book and make more money. I think we have enough proof not to accept Rose's word for anything.

It maybe that Barry, McGwire, Sosa, and many other players have taken steroids. It is also possible they have not. I will repeat, if any of them are caught, I think they should be disciplined. I think it is monumentally stupid of players to give into the pressures, tremendous as they might be, to use short cuts like steroids or Human Growth Hormones, to enhance their play. They are sacrificing their health for the money of today and they will pay for it in the near future. For what? Ten to fifteen more feet on a fly ball or a few more outings as a pitcher? It is crazy and for the first time in the history of the labor negotiations I agreed with the management's position.

As to Bonds jump to 73, it is proof of nothing. Many, many players have one outstanding year in one stat. Does the name Brady Anderson mean anything to you? It is not as if Bonds hasn't proven himself to be the best in Baseball even without the 2001 season. Again, it is always possible you are right, but your examples don't show it.

I would give you a few other factors that have contributed to the number of home runs hit in the majors - not just by Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa. Since the 1980's a number of Parks have been built that emphasize the home run. In fact Pac Bell is one of the few new parks that doesn't have this bias. Expansion has also watered down the quality of pitching in the majors. That has resulted in a number of pitchers who would have been in Triple A at best that are now in the majors. Add to this the fact that many players now spend year round in exercise regimes that have them in the kind of shape that few of the baseball players of years past could hope to have and you have a recipe for a surge in home run production. Given those facts there can easily have been legal reasons for the shattering of Maris' record by McGwire and its subsequent breaking by Bonds.