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MacRumors
Jan 6, 2004, 02:33 AM
CNet reports (http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5135382.html?tag=nefd_top) that RealNetworks will be launching a new download service with songs encoded in the MPEG4 Advanced Audio Coding (AAC) format.

However, the new service will pair RealNetworks' Helix Digital Rights Mangement (DRM) format with the open standard (AAC). As a result, these song files will be incompatible with Apple's iTunes and iPod (along with everything else). As the article explains, "For a song to play on a digital device, the gadget must both be able to play the underlying music format and to decode any proprietary content locks that protect against unauthorized copying."

Apple presently uses AAC + FairPlay Digital Rights Management (DRM) for their iTunes Music Store songs.

Nermal
Jan 6, 2004, 02:38 AM
Good to see another major player adopting AAC. It should help to push people away from MP3 and WMA.

Sir_Giggles
Jan 6, 2004, 02:39 AM
Watch as Realplayer's new Helix-DRM AAC file format crashes and burns. You are seeing the beginning of its final stage of its demise. Good riddance.

JohnGillilan
Jan 6, 2004, 02:40 AM
I agree. That's a huge step for another company to adpot AAC. But will an AAC with Real DRM work on an iPod?? That's the question!! I realize this is currently not compatible, but I wonder if this will change when Real realizes that using their own DRM is self-defeating.

Waluigi
Jan 6, 2004, 02:41 AM
Why use an open standard AAC, and then propriety DRM? This is completely noncongruent? Am I missing something?

--Waluigi

wankle
Jan 6, 2004, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by Sir_Giggles
Watch as Realplayer's new Helix-DRM AAC file format crashes and burns. You are seeing the beginning of its final stage of its demise. Good riddance.

Riiight. F@#% Real, but Apple rules for doing almost the exact same thing. Apple has its own DRM, as does Real. No reason to vilify Real.

Technology hypocracy at its best.

As far as not being able to use it with other devices (like the article says) Real has a pretty advanced transcoding engine for portable devices, and will likely include the iPod.

crees!
Jan 6, 2004, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by JohnGillilan
I agree. That's a huge step for another company to adpot AAC. But will an AAC with Real DRM work on an iPod?? That's the question!!

The post stated it would not work with iPod. The question is Real Networks will have to create their own player or someone will have to adopt their DRM.

wankle
Jan 6, 2004, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by Waluigi
Why use an open standard AAC, and then propriety DRM? This is completely noncongruent? Am I missing something?

--Waluigi

Yes, you are missing something.

That's exactly what Apple does! Apple's DRM is 100% proprietary.

And since when is AAC open? You need to license it from Dolby. It's based on open standards but it's not truely open.

JohnGillilan
Jan 6, 2004, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by crees!
The post stated it would not work with iPod. The question is Real Networks will have to create their own player or someone will have to adopt their DRM.

Who would adopt that???? I don't see anyone supporting Real.

Waluigi
Jan 6, 2004, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by wankle
That's exactly what Apple does! Apple's DRM is 100% proprietary.

True, but Apple's AAC files they sell work on the iPod, and due to realnetwork's DRM, their files won't play on the iPod.

And since when is AAC open? You need to license it from Dolby. It's based on open standards but it's not truely open.

Compared to windows media files, AAC is more open then Jenna Jameson's legs.

--Waluigi

Edit: Spelling

Sabenth
Jan 6, 2004, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by JohnGillilan
Who would adopt that???? I don't see anyone supporting Real. yea I agree seems a waiste of time..

watch as people state we apple adoopted it blah blah .. yea but they have the iPod can real afford to make a player.

I stil wont be using this service i dont have real player ..... NOT ANYMORE!!!

wankle
Jan 6, 2004, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by Waluigi
True, but Apple's AAC files they sell work on the iPod, and due to realnetwork's DRM, their files won't play on the iPod.



Compared to windows media files, AAC is more open then Jenna Jameson's legs.

--Waluigi

Edit: Spelling [/QUOTE]

:eek: OK, I suppose it is, but the poster was talking about AAC, and was very misinformed. Apple uses a closed codec and closed DRM... just like Real.

And when it comes to the iPod, just wait and see, I would be willing to bet that users can transcode and play songs on the iPod. The article doesn't mention that, but just wait and see.

johnnyjibbs
Jan 6, 2004, 02:56 AM
So, enter the RealOnePod?

Hopefully it will offer compatibility in future for the iPod and hopefully Apple will be smart enough not to dismiss it. Although it would be competition for the iTunes Music Store, it would add more weight to the iPod. iPod may be big at the moment, but so too is Apple's head.

elgruga
Jan 6, 2004, 03:00 AM
Guys its 4 in the morning - is everyone staying up for the show?

As for the RealNetworks stuff - well who gives a ****?

Bring on ITMS for Canada and the new ipods and GarageBand. (whatever the hell garageband is?!)

I'm going to bed - I'm losing it.

Waluigi
Jan 6, 2004, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by elgruga
Guys its 4 in the morning - is everyone staying up for the show?

I'm going to bed - I'm losing it.

I'm going to work at 7 or 8 depending on how lazy I get. I'm just not going to sleep tonight. Besides, sleeping is overrated. Seriously though, your right about the realnetwork ****, it is really trivial.

--Waluigi

Swift
Jan 6, 2004, 04:01 AM
Their video quality is fine, and they were the first in the market. You know what sucks about the company? Deception. They advertise a free player, but you have to navigate past three screens to find tiny print to get to it. And I signed on for Gold, then realized that anything I really wanted would entail another, independent subscription, so I cancelled. Well, it took me an actual phone call, and half an hour confirming my cancellation, to get them out of my hair. You end up hating them, no matter what they do technically. That's why their AAC service will flop. Technically, they're not bad, though those OS 9 players that glommed your entire machine kind of sucked. But it's commercially that they alienate and disgust the consumer.

CrackedButter
Jan 6, 2004, 04:13 AM
This is getting stupid now, it seems everybody's music store won't work with each others players... this isn't going to work even if they are the same format. Talk about a standards war!

I'm glad now that the iTunes music store hasn't arrived in my country, i can sit back and realise its not really worth it.

I'll continue to buy CD's for now and only when they are in a sale.

Sailfish
Jan 6, 2004, 04:56 AM
Cd's aren't safe anymore either, copy protection is coming to them as well.

I like that Real is taking on Microsloth, but they are going to need a player to back their DRM.

I don't think many hardware manufacturers is going to take them seriously as a long term player.

By the way Apples DRM is called "Fairplay" and is a third party product.

Free to be licensed and used by anyone.

Which is what Real should have done if they just want to sell music. Because iPod owners would use the service.

I wish them good luck, any enemy of my enemy (Microsloth) is my friend.

amnesiac1984
Jan 6, 2004, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by Sailfish
Cd's aren't safe anymore either, copy protection is coming to them as well.

I like that Real is taking on Microsloth, but they are going to need a player to back their DRM.

I don't think many hardware manufacturers is going to take them seriously as a long term player.

By the way Apples DRM is called "Fairplay" and is a third party product.

Free to be licensed and used by anyone.

Which is what Real should have done if they just want to sell music. Because iPod owners would use the service.

I wish them good luck, any enemy of my enemy (Microsloth) is my friend.

Exactly, thats what should be done, a free amrket for downloading music so you get a choice and prices get competitive. At the moment, if oyu buy an iPod you have to buy your music from Apple (or a cd).

elmimmo
Jan 6, 2004, 05:26 AM
I do not really have a clue of how free and /or open AAC, Fairplay, and Helix are now or are going to be in the future, but I do remember this piece of niews (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-945406.html) where the Helix brand is being related to an open source initiative by Real, although I did not grasp to what extent.

Could anyone with real knowledge on the field explain really how open and/or free (both as in speech and as in beer) to implement are those technologies?

gunnmjk
Jan 6, 2004, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by Sailfish
[B...
By the way Apples DRM is called "Fairplay" and is a third party product.

Free to be licensed and used by anyone.

Which is what Real should have done if they just want to sell music. Because iPod owners would use the service.
[/B]

Real using Fairplay so that it could work on iPods?! Get real! Who in their right mind with an iPod would download music from REAL when they have iTunes?

The product is obviously going to be aimed at PC users. REAL has always been propriority, and would never sink to license WMA. So this format is obviously their only logical choice.

I'm sure they will try to sell some kind of MP3 player with it. I mean, even my Creative speakers have an m-port to plug in an MP3 player!

amnesiac1984
Jan 6, 2004, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by gunnmjk
Real using Fairplay so that it could work on iPods?! Get real! Who in their right mind with an iPod would download music from REAL when they have iTunes?

The product is obviously going to be aimed at PC users. REAL has always been propriority, and would never sink to license WMA. So this format is obviously their only logical choice.

I'm sure they will try to sell some kind of MP3 player with it. I mean, even my Creative speakers have an m-port to plug in an MP3 player!

What is this mport I wonder? Is it not just a standard audio input called something different so you buy these speakers thinking they are mp3 player compatiblr where in reality every speaker with some kind of analogue input is compatible.

gunnmjk
Jan 6, 2004, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by amnesiac1984
What is this mport I wonder?

It's a USB port they put onto the volume remote, that I believe is to allow the speakers to stream music from "compatible Creative NOMAD® MuVo™ players."

Yeah, I think it's lame too The remote also has audio-in and audio-out ports, which make it kind of useless.

sinisterdesign
Jan 6, 2004, 06:47 AM
i agree, sailfish, CDs are far from safe now, too. has anyone else run into Universal's DRM and trashed their Mac? this was over a year ago, but i popped in my 'O Brother Where Art Thou' soundtrack to rip it to iTunes and my computer crashed. i rebooted to a flashing '?' (that's always a good feeling). after trying for an hour to get Norton to find the hard drive, i gave up & went to bed. the next morning at work i thought, "well, i haven't heard my CD yet", so i popped it into my work computer.
CRASH & '?'

i had to take out the hard drives, take them to a Mac repair shop & have them recover as much data as they could. i lost email, addresses, Quicken data, etc. not to MENTION a day of work & hours spent trying to fix it myself. i still won't buy a Universal CD if i notice that they're the label.

...and i haven't crashed my computer once from an ITMS download...

wordmunger
Jan 6, 2004, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by sinisterdesign
i agree, sailfish, CDs are far from safe now, too. has anyone else run into Universal's DRM and trashed their Mac? this was over a year ago, but i popped in my 'O Brother Where Art Thou' soundtrack to rip it to iTunes and my computer crashed

Damn! I have that CD! Luckily I never put it into my computer. Anyone know where there's a list of DRMd CDs so we know what's safe to rip?

synergy
Jan 6, 2004, 07:14 AM
Maybe just maybe iPods will work with Real's DRM.
You heard it here first. (right or wrong :-))

Real and Apple have worked together in the past on a superficial level. This maybe a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

New products to be announced today including possible new iPods that may work with Real's DRM.

jholzner
Jan 6, 2004, 08:20 AM
Well, as far as I'm concerned the file format is not important in any way since the DRM pretty much makes it a proprietary closed format. Even though Apple uses AAC it's no different the WMA since we can do nothing with it accept what Apple allows. All these different DRM schemes and incompatibilities are really starting to piss me off. It's like as if each company come out with it's own type of CD technology and none were compatible with each other...DRM NEEDS to be a standard as well!

jholzner
Jan 6, 2004, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by Waluigi
Why use an open standard AAC, and then propriety DRM? This is completely noncongruent? Am I missing something?

--Waluigi

Okay so I posted before I read all the posts. This is exaclty what I'm saying!!

sinisterdesign
Jan 6, 2004, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by wordmunger
Damn! I have that CD! Luckily I never put it into my computer. Anyone know where there's a list of DRMd CDs so we know what's safe to rip?

not that i've come across. everyone (including the Mac repair shop) thought i was crazy for thinking it was the CD that caused all the havoc. the repair guy swore it was a coincidence. !!?!?? 2 computers that are miles apart crashing w/ the same error w/in 24 hrs?? c'mon. i googled high & low trying to find info on it, but it wasn't until months later that i found an article on CNN.com saying that some of Universal's CD were "protected" and that it rendered them unplayable on a Mac. no, it rendered my Mac unUSABLE. the thing that REALLY chaffed my ass is that it was MY CD that i bought! i never HAVE gotten my $$$ worth of listening to that album b/c i listen to most of my music on my computer at home or my iPod at work & in the car.

here are a couple related articles:

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-277197.html

http://www.eff.org/cafe/drmgame/copy-protected.html

AHHHH, found something:
http://www.fatchucks.com/z3.cd.html

jholzner
Jan 6, 2004, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by wankle
Compared to windows media files, AAC is more open then Jenna Jameson's legs.

--Waluigi

Edit: Spelling

:eek: OK, I suppose it is, but the poster was talking about AAC, and was very misinformed. Apple uses a closed codec and closed DRM... just like Real.

And when it comes to the iPod, just wait and see, I would be willing to bet that users can transcode and play songs on the iPod. The article doesn't mention that, but just wait and see. [/B][/QUOTE]

Okay, the codec may be closed (no it's not open source) but Apple can't just go and change it whenever they want. It must be approved as a standard...WMA is not that way...microsoft can do whatever it wants with the codec.

iggyb
Jan 6, 2004, 08:33 AM
I'm not liking this at all. What good is AAC when each company can put proprietary DRM on it for themselves? I love my iPod, and I love iTMS, but this seems to be opening a pathway for each company to support only their players.

If this continues, and everyone has their own AAC with proprietary DRM....what better is that than WMA? If I can't buy songs on other sites to put on my iPod, then what's the diff?

ITR 81
Jan 6, 2004, 08:51 AM
I see this as a good thing. It does help promote AAC over WMA.

Real must really hate MS now.

They compete but protected WMA is not that same so why should protected AAC?

If Real fails watch as Real becomes intergrated with iTunes Music Store in the future or Apple just does a buyout of the whole company or parts of the company.

stcanard
Jan 6, 2004, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by sinisterdesign
not that i've come across. everyone (including the Mac repair shop) thought i was crazy for thinking it was the CD that caused all the havoc. the repair guy swore it was a coincidence.

[Mildly OT]

If it is the CD, then only some of them are copy protected.

My O Brother where Art Thou imported without a hitch.

sinisterdesign
Jan 6, 2004, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by stcanard
[Mildly OT]

If it is the CD, then only some of them are copy protected.

My O Brother where Art Thou imported without a hitch.

good to know, b/c that was a royal pain in the arse to fix. i wouldn't wish it on anyone except the commie b****s at Universal that thought it was a good idea.

YUP, just found this article:
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-271121.html?legacy=cnet

sorry to get off on that tangent. as far as Real goes, i'm very nervous watching these big companies come into the online music service & set up their own little camps. i don't MIND buying CDs still, but as soon as i get them, i rip them to AAC and listen to them on my iPod (like right now). and i just bought 2 albums this morning before work n iTMS, but i'm not buying a THING online if it starts giving me crap about where & how i can play it.

1 1/2 to keynote!!!

sweet...watching an F-22 flanked by two F-18's out my window...

jholzner
Jan 6, 2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
I see this as a good thing. It does help promote AAC over WMA.

Real must really hate MS now.

They compete but protected WMA is not that same so why should protected AAC?

If Real fails watch as Real becomes intergrated with iTunes Music Store in the future or Apple just does a buyout of the whole company or parts of the company.

OMG...I would love to see Apple buy Real...that would propell them to #1 in internet media distrubution!

edgar_is_good
Jan 6, 2004, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by iggyb
I'm not liking this at all. What good is AAC when each company can put proprietary DRM on it for themselves? I love my iPod, and I love iTMS, but this seems to be opening a pathway for each company to support only their players.

If this continues, and everyone has their own AAC with proprietary DRM....what better is that than WMA? If I can't buy songs on other sites to put on my iPod, then what's the diff?

It is interesting, because if Apple continues market dominance with the ipod, then as steve jobs said, they're the microsoft of digital music. It would follow that they'd be subject to the same lawsuits forcing them to open the platform to alternative formats. Of course, I think this would require monopoly status, but maybe not...

Swift
Jan 6, 2004, 10:02 AM
I have the 'O Brother, Where Art Thou?' CD ripped in iTunes now. I never had an instant's problem with it. Maybe there were two editions.

elmimmo
Jan 7, 2004, 04:50 PM
The first player that reads Real's DRM is out. It's made by Real of course.

Read more about it at mobilecomputing.com's article titled "RealPlayer 1.5 for Palm supports DRM-enabled AAC files (http://www.newmobilecomputing.com/story.php?news_id=3614)".

No one commented anything yet on my doubt about Helix being open source, which is somewhat fuzzy in cnet's article from July "Real takes the open-source route (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-945406.html)" and how more open/free (as in speech/as in beer) is the license to implement it compared to Fairplay(if it is free in both meanings and open -which I do not know- why would Apple not implement it in the iPod? After all they say they do not make a penny with the iTMS).

Nobody mentioned either what are the limitations of Helix DRM.