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MacRumors
Jan 6, 2004, 05:06 PM
CNet reports (http://news.com.com/2100-1045-5135865.html?tag=nl) on the new announcements at MacWorld and reveal Apple's new iLife strategy:
The iLife package, including GarageBand, iTunes, iDVD, iPhoto and iMovie will cost $49, or will be free with new Macs, Jobs said. The company will no longer provide free downloads of iPhoto or iMovie, a strategy it seriously considered last year and that could anger some customers.Indeed rumors of this strategy met angry responses (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/01/20030114081730.shtml) last year when this plan was leaked.

iDVD has never been a "free" download due to the size of the application, and GarageBand appears to be of similar proportions. iPhoto and iMovie will now be bundled with iLife ($49) and with new Macintoshes exclusively. Meanwhile, iTunes remains a free download.

Ambrose Chapel
Jan 6, 2004, 05:08 PM
sigh

ipoddin
Jan 6, 2004, 05:08 PM
uh oh...the floodgates are gonna burst open now...

edesignuk
Jan 6, 2004, 05:09 PM
Another reason to be pissed off with todays events, honestly, do they want to loose customers??????

If they think I'm paying $49 for an iPhoto update (which is all I'd want), they've got another thing coming...

*starts up IRC*

edit: reminds me a bit of the whole iTools to .Mac thing :rolleyes:

ok, I've done enough moaning for one night (justified IMO I might add), I'm off to bed to calm down...

Grimace
Jan 6, 2004, 05:09 PM
This had to happen eventually. Having the free for a while was nice.

The price for the package is extremely reasonable.

eyeluvmyimac
Jan 6, 2004, 05:12 PM
needless to say, it does indeed suck. but I suppose it was also inevitable.

It's worth it though in my opinion, especially with edu discount, $29 isn't bad.

I can hear it coming though, the stampede of pissed off mac forum residents. Prepare yourselves, shields up.

ac2102
Jan 6, 2004, 05:12 PM
I was wondering how we were expected to download such vast updates!

Oh well, i will just have to fork out for iLife when i next need to make a movie, browse 25000 photos or record some music!

As it is, the current package suits me just fine, but i can certainly see a personal use for all those new features in the future.

As long as itunes updates remain free then i will be happy.

-ac2102

szark
Jan 6, 2004, 05:13 PM
As long as the point updates are still free, I can handle this.

If we had to pay for ANY updates... :eek:

Besides, they needed the extra download bandwidth for iTMS. ;)

h'biki
Jan 6, 2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by edesignuk
Another reason to be pissed off with todays events, honestly, do they want to loose customers??????


Um. If you weren't going to be paying anything for it in the first place, then they're really not losing customers, are they?

Hopefully they offer a decent up-to-date program for new buyers. (ie one year free upgrades).

jeffff
Jan 6, 2004, 05:14 PM
I can't imagine why anyone would complain about having to pay 10 bucks apiece for five of the greatest apps that ever came down the pike. Come on!

It's not like the old apps expired. What's Apple supposed to do? Spend millions in R&D on these apps every year, and then give them away? In what universe?

Do you work for free?

The bottom line is, these apps are great, I like 'em, I use 'em, and I'm ordering the upgrade today. I can't believe they're only charging me 49 bucks.

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 05:15 PM
Oh great! And I wanted to get the new imovie because imovie 3 was so much slower than 2.

by far the worst expo.:mad:

odditie
Jan 6, 2004, 05:15 PM
I'm a college student, and I have to say, the quality of these programs are more then worth the money they are asking for the iLife package, so tighten your belt a little and shell out the $49 and be happy with the great quality of the products that Steve has helped us all enjoy.

Chris

dho
Jan 6, 2004, 05:15 PM
The lack fo a free download is disapointing,

but I will whip out my $100 apple gift certificate in a few weeks regardless.

49 isnt so bad compared to the competition

could be much better hoowever

caveman_uk
Jan 6, 2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by edesignuk
Another reason to be pissed off with todays events, honestly, do they want to loose customers??????

If they think I'm paying $49 for an iPhoto update (which is all I'd want), they've got another thing coming...

No-ones making you buy it.

Personally all I want now is the iphoto update but the other stuff falls into the 'nice-to-have' category and I quite fancy playing around with GarageBand...

£39 isn't a lot for what you get and it's quite a bit less on educational if you qualify.

Personally I'm ambivalent about todays event. I've got an ipod and I'm not in the market for a new mac at the moment so mostly the hardware stuff is just nice to watch right now. Software is of more interest to me so today was kind of OK...

lindmar
Jan 6, 2004, 05:17 PM
I agree,,
I already placed my order.
49 bucks... geezz.
good luck getting any single peice of software for that cost..

Some people have lost their minds complaining about this...


People expect too much from Apple..
pay the 49 dollars and quit yapping, this is a great deal..

iJed
Jan 6, 2004, 05:17 PM
This has to be the most disappointing MacWorld since Apple announced that they would charge for iTools.

EDIT: Ok this has put me in a really bad mood now. I paid my Panther upgrade price and expected to get my iApps updated with it. Now how much do I have to pay a year? $130 for OS + $100 for .Mac + $50 for iLife. This is getting ridiculous!

QuiteSure
Jan 6, 2004, 05:17 PM
$49 is ridiculously low for everything you're getting. While I don't think I'll be using iMovie again, I do think I'll play around with Garageband and, of course, iPhoto. Apple probably has such huge file sizes for everything (and wants to keep it all neatly coordinated) that it didn't make sense to allow it to be used piecemeal.

OR, here's another way of looking at it:

iPhoto, iMovie and Garageband are FREE, but not compatible without the new version of iDVD, which cost $49 (which was consistent with the most recent upgrade)

OR, here's another way of looking at it:

It's free with a new computer, so deduct $49 from the price that you're going to pay for the new computer, and you'll be getting a bargain! Kind of like waiting until November to buy your computer so you can get Panther for free!

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 05:19 PM
I can't imagine why anyone would complain about having to pay 10 bucks apiece for five of the greatest apps that ever came down the pike. Come on!

ummm...because they were free about five hours ago.

Besides I don't want to be paying for iPhoto, iDVD, and Garageband when all I want is iMovie.

edesignuk
Jan 6, 2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by caveman_uk
No-ones making you buy it.

True, and I do realise that. But the current iPhoto is s-l-o-w, any update to make it run at a decent speed I expect for free, like a service pack type of thing.

AMPrkm
Jan 6, 2004, 05:19 PM
I am *not* convinced that CNet knows what it's talking about. It is very possible that they simply went to MacRumors, read some of the panicked messages about the sky falling, and decided that was sufficient confirmation to say there will be no free downloads. They offered no source, and have a poor track record of journalistic integrity anyway, especially when it comes to Apple.

MacRumors should know better than to take CNet on its word, so unless you guys have independent confirmation, I still say downloads will appear on the 16th.

Grimace
Jan 6, 2004, 05:19 PM
Seriously, in a year - people will have forgotten that these were once free download/updates.

If they had ALWAYS made you pay, you wouldn't think anything of it.

If you don't need the updates - don't cry about the price. If you really want the updates - or the AMAZING Garageband software - $49 is a steal.

evilbert420
Jan 6, 2004, 05:20 PM
What a bunch of whiners. $50 for all that greatness... and it's not FREE so it SUCKS.

Go buy cheap PCs and run LINUX if you can't afford $50 for 5 great applications. Or run the old versions.

Seriously... some of you are embarassing.

VicMacs
Jan 6, 2004, 05:20 PM
no complaints... just wait till someone you know gets a new mac :)

no, really, buy this, it's cheap. for waht it does and how much you use it... its well worth it...

die mini ipod! DIE!

blueBomber
Jan 6, 2004, 05:20 PM
I'm assuming these will be included in os updates as well? Though I am (mildly) upset I just shelled out for Panther and now some of the core pieces of software get pay only updates, when 10.4 hits I would like to know that the iApps included will be the newest ones available and not some cruddy version they stuff into the system.

Ling
Jan 6, 2004, 05:21 PM
Whatever. I think it's an amazing deal (as a student) and I'll shell out 30 bucks happily. Now $50 is a little steeper. But you're getting 5 great programs. Before everyone goes ballistic and flames Apple...take a deep breath and think about what iLife has done for you.

ipoddin
Jan 6, 2004, 05:22 PM
IMO, iPhoto or iMovie ALONE are worth $49 each.

Adobe just release their photo album software which does essentially the same thing as iPhoto (even lets you order books), and it costs $49!

wagner
Jan 6, 2004, 05:22 PM
Hot damn.. No wonder the rich are getting richer.. Apple is making gizilions and now they want to squeeze a little more out of us.. Tired of it.. Tired,tired,tired...!!:mad:

edesignuk
Jan 6, 2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by evilbert420
What a bunch of whiners. $50 for all that greatness... and it's not FREE so it SUCKS.

Go buy cheap PCs and run LINUX if you can't afford $50 for 5 great applications. Or run the old versions.

Seriously... some of you are embarassing.
Well I'm so sorry to embarass you :p I for one have not said they "suck", I just don't think that you should have to buy a whole package to get an update to a single application. That ok with you?

crees!
Jan 6, 2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by szark
As long as the point updates are still free, I can handle this.

If we had to pay for ANY updates... :eek:

Besides, they needed the extra download bandwidth for iTMS. ;)

Sorry, life itself isn't free either. In other words deal with it.

So how much do you spend in a week on food.. huh? Thank god you don't have to pay for iLife everytime you use it.. which sounds like a scheme M$ would try to pull.

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 05:23 PM
I think the core of the argument is that we (as Apple Consumers) should feel priviledged because we have the OPPORTUNITY to BUY iLife.. No mention, or thought given, to that we already pay a premium on hardware just simply to run the software (and i believe that ifApple were to release an x86 version of Mac OS their monopoly would collapse).. iLife apps were the right of the (double the) price of the hardware.. Now, to those that already have bought the premium priced hardware, the software is no longer a right, it's a priviledge which can be taken away at any time without warning..


Originally posted by QuiteSure
$49 is ridiculously low for everything you're getting. While I don't think I'll be using iMovie again, I do think I'll play around with Garageband and, of course, iPhoto. Apple probably has such huge file sizes for everything (and wants to keep it all neatly coordinated) that it didn't make sense to allow it to be used piecemeal.

OR, here's another way of looking at it:

iPhoto, iMovie and Garageband are FREE, but not compatible without the new version of iDVD, which cost $49 (which was consistent with the most recent upgrade)

OR, here's another way of looking at it:

It's free with a new computer, so deduct $49 from the price that you're going to pay for the new computer, and you'll be getting a bargain! Kind of like waiting until November to buy your computer so you can get Panther for free!

Torajima
Jan 6, 2004, 05:23 PM
I don't think Apple gets it... the only reason many of us are willing to pay a premium for Apple Hardware is the incredible free software that is included in the box (yeah, and Mac OS X).

If Apple is going to nickel and dime us for every OS and Application upgrade, they damn well better start lowering their hardware prices.

Really, why should people who just bought a $3000 G5 last week now have to pay and additional $49 to update the iApps? Besides, many of these apps were "broken" to begin with (just visit the iMovie, iDVD, & iPhoto forums of Apples own website), why should you have to pay for bug fixes, along with a few new features you probably don't need?

DaveGee
Jan 6, 2004, 05:25 PM
Maybe I can cover most of the posts that'll come up all in one single post

Dread... Doom... Wring Hands...

All I wanted was "insert some iApp name" and NOW I gotta pay for em all!!!

Bitch... Moan... Complain...

That's it we're buying a Dell (yea that'll fix em!)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:mad: :mad: :mad:

:( :( :(

In the end just pick one of the options below....

1 - Go to Dell...
2 - Fork over the $29 / $49 and be happy
3 - Steal the software online
4 - Wait till the next OS X (edit) PAID Upgrade and get them that way.
5 - Continue to use the stuff you have now and forget about it.

D

blueBomber
Jan 6, 2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Ling
Whatever. I think it's an amazing deal (as a student) and I'll shell out 30 bucks happily. Now $50 is a little steeper. But you're getting 5 great programs. Before everyone goes ballistic and flames Apple...take a deep breath and think about what iLife has done for you. Even at $50 it's still a great deal, but like in my post above, I just don't like the idea of having to shell out $130 for os updates on an annual basis and then another $50 for apps that are considered part of the os barely 3 months after it's release. Maybe there will be an up-to-date for people who just bought Panther (but probably not)

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 05:26 PM
in response to your #4, they won't come with the OS upgrade.. the OS and iLife are now seperate.. to get the functionality you've come to expect from your Mac, you now need to pay $180 US, not just $129

Originally posted by DaveGee
Maybe I can cover most of the posts that'll come up all in one single post

Dread... Doom... Wring Hands...

All I wanted was "insert some iApp name" and NOW I gotta pay for em all!!!

Bitch... Moan... Complain...

That's it we're buying a Dell (yea that'll fix em!)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:mad: :mad: :mad:

:( :( :(

In the end....

1 - Go to Dell...
2 - Fork over the $29 / $49 and be happy
3 - Steal the software online
4 - Wait till the next OS X upgrade and get them FREE
5 - Continue to use the stuff you have now and forget about it.

D

artooro
Jan 6, 2004, 05:27 PM
Well I'm very disappointed that I can't download the updates. What happened to instant gratification? :(

But I'm sure someone who gets the new versions on a new Mac or who buys iLife `04 will share it with BitTorrent or P2P.
(Or is it stealing? ) :mad: Sharing isn't stealing is it? :(

Mr. Anderson
Jan 6, 2004, 05:27 PM
The free software was nice. But what Apple is doing isn't all that bad either. Its not exactly that big of a price and the familly pack for 5 is only $30 dollars more.

Good deal, especially if the apps do all the extra they've mentioned. I'm really looking forward to seeing how well iMovie captures video from my iSight camera. Connect it to my powerbook and away I go! :D

Worth the money right there.

D

bdkennedy1
Jan 6, 2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by AMPrkm
I am *not* convinced that CNet knows what it's talking about. It is very possible that they simply went to MacRumors, read some of the panicked messages about the sky falling, and decided that was sufficient confirmation to say there will be no free downloads. They offered no source, and have a poor track record of journalistic integrity anyway, especially when it comes to Apple.

MacRumors should know better than to take CNet on its word, so unless you guys have independent confirmation, I still say downloads will appear on the 16th.

I agree. There has been no confirmation from Apple about this. This same situation happened last year and what happened 2 weeks later. iMovie, iPhoto and iTunes were still downloadable.

JoeRadar
Jan 6, 2004, 05:27 PM
The question is: Does Apple use free iLife to move Macs, or is iLife expected to be its own profit center?

iLife could still be a loss leader, primarily designed to get people to switch to Macs or upgrade their current Mac, and the $49 is just designed to offset some costs.

But if Apple wants to make money from iLife, will Apple move iLife to Windows?

o iPod became available for Windows (initially with another jukebox app).

o iTunes and iTMS migrated to Windows.

o .Mac and supported tools are available for Windows.

Why not the rest of iLife?

evil_santa
Jan 6, 2004, 05:28 PM
it is shiping at £39 in the UK, that about $70us. But still very good value. Having the ability to trim in iMovie now makes it a very usable app for the low end video editor. Garageband would be very good value for that price as a stand alone!

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 05:28 PM
We ALL JUST BOUGHT PANTHER.. there is no up to date.. this is Apple charging for the Apps that were once free, on top of the OS that we just bought..

Originally posted by blueBomber
Even at $50 it's still a great deal, but like in my post above, I just don't like the idea of having to shell out $130 for os updates on an annual basis and then another $50 for apps that are considered part of the os barely 3 months after it's release. Maybe there will be an up-to-date for people who just bought Panther (but probably not)

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 05:29 PM
Someone already brought this up, but we just paid $129 for panther and many of us don't want to shell out more money. :rolleyes:

QCassidy352
Jan 6, 2004, 05:30 PM
give me a break. iphoto has SERIOUS problems that should have been addressed long ago. Now we have to pay for what amounts to bug fixes?

I don't want GarageBand, I don't want iDVD, I don't want imovie, I can get itunes for free anyway (oh gee, wonder why that is), so I'm supposed to pay $50 for iphoto bug fixes?? ROFL.

Apple made no explicit promises, but there was an understanding that these were free apps. I don't give a damn if you think it's justified or not, but I feel cheated. iapps are part of the OS. I bought a PB in September, bought Panther in October (and did I get a discount for buying a system 3 weeks earlier? No - but I bought Panther anyway.) and now it's another $50? Don't think so. (fires up Poisoned)

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 05:30 PM
"Free iLife" on all "new" macs is the bait for the switch.. for those of us that already purchased hardware (and the OS update) this is more money out of our pockets, should we choose to upgrade.

Originally posted by JoeRadar
The question is: Does Apple use free iLife to move Macs, or is iLife expected to be its own profit center?

iLife could still be a loss leader, primarily designed to get people to switch to Macs or upgrade their current Mac, and the $49 is just designed to offset some costs.

But if Apple wants to make money from iLife, will Apple move iLife to Windows?

o iPod became available for Windows (initially with another jukebox app).

o iTunes and iTMS migrated to Windows.

o .Mac and supported tools are available for Windows.

Why not the rest of iLife?

jxyama
Jan 6, 2004, 05:31 PM
i can understand the angry sentiment. no matter how great it is or how "justified" it is, whenever something that was free become not free, people will get mad.

but i use iphoto a lot. and i'd consider the ability to handle 25,000 photos alone well worth $50. instead of splitting each year into many iphoto folders to keep from slowing down, i can now have all of my pics in one album. also, personally, i use iMovie a little, and the iDVD's ability to transfer to another superdrive equipped machine to burn an actual DVD will make me use iDVD now. (i have a combo drive PB.)

being a student also helps, $29 is a steal. so i don't mind this at all...

but i can definitely understand the sentiment of anger. it's not whining. it's not ridiculous. it's a very normal reaction to having something you had for free become not free.

blueBomber
Jan 6, 2004, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
We ALL JUST BOUGHT PANTHER.. there is no up to date.. this is Apple charging for the Apps that were once free, on top of the OS that we just bought.. Yeah, but I just bought it LAST WEEK (typing in all caps is pretty obnoxious). I'm just complaining, sorry to upset you. I've already ordered iLife '04 anyways (GarageBand :D), oh nevermind...

oldwatery
Jan 6, 2004, 05:34 PM
$49 for the bundle is more than cheap....so stop your whining. We all know each individual app is easily worth the price of admission. Agree on the incremental upgades....hopefully they will be free. As I watched the keynote I was burning to plonk down the $$$...oh well 10 days will pass fast enough! Nice one Steve/Apple.....we all expect too much of you sometimes ;)

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 05:34 PM
it's not only that is "was free", it's that we JUST PAID $129 for an updated system.. "iLife" was part of that system, or so we thought. The $129 OS just lost value.. want to know how much? iphoto + iMovie = $20 (2 pc.s of ilife at $50)

the OS is worth $20 less to me now.

Originally posted by jxyama
i can understand the angry sentiment. no matter how great it is or how "justified" it is, whenever something that was free become not free, people will get mad.

but i use iphoto a lot. and i'd consider the ability to handle 25,000 photos alone well worth $50. instead of splitting each year into many iphoto folders to keep from slowing down, i can now have all of my pics in one album. also, personally, i use iMovie a little, and the iDVD's ability to transfer to another superdrive equipped machine to burn an actual DVD will make me use iDVD now. (i have a combo drive PB.)

being a student also helps, $29 is a steal. so i don't mind this at all...

but i can definitely understand the sentiment of anger. it's not whining. it's not ridiculous. it's a very normal reaction to having something you had for free become not free.

Nebrie
Jan 6, 2004, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
give me a break. iphoto has SERIOUS problems that should have been addressed long ago. Now we have to pay for what amounts to bug fixes?

I don't want GarageBand, I don't want iDVD, I don't want imovie, I can get itunes for free anyway (oh gee, wonder why that is), so I'm supposed to pay $50 for iphoto bug fixes?? ROFL.

Apple made no explicit promises, but there was an understanding that these were free apps. I don't give a damn if you think it's justified or not, but I feel cheated. iapps are part of the OS. I bought a PB in September, bought Panther in October (and did I get a discount for buying a system 3 weeks earlier? No - but I bought Panther anyway.) and now it's another $50? Don't think so. (fires up Poisoned)

Why are you whining about the price, doesnt even seem like you need it. You don't have to buy everything Apple releases.

JoeRadar
Jan 6, 2004, 05:37 PM
Here is a Machiavellian theory:

Apple will release iLife for Windows to drive out all the competitors. As Jobs mentioned today, they are hoping to eliminate the rest of the hard-disk based music players from the market.

Once Apple controls the market for (1) Jukebox apps (iTunes), (2) media players (iPod), (3) music stores, (4) Photo organizers, (5) movie editors, and (6) DVD burners, many consumers will stop believing that the best software is *only* available on Windows and will consider buying a Macintosh.

In other words, once Apple owns the market for most of the applications most people use most of the time, Apple can be more successful in luring them to the whole Macintosh lifestyle.

Just a wild idea :D

qgrayson
Jan 6, 2004, 05:38 PM
- It's more than a matter of 'free' applications suddenly becoming 'commercial'. Many of us bought the previous iLife package and feel that 50 bucks was thrown away.

- Apple should have at least offered an 'upgrade' price for those who invested in their first iLife package.

- It's too bad Apple is keeping users from downloading upgrades for iPhoto and iMovie since both have suffered from performance problems since the LAST upgrade.

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Nebrie
Why are you whining about the price, doesnt even seem like you need it. You don't have to buy everything Apple releases.

It sounds like he wants the iPhoto update that should be free, but he doesn't want to pay $50 for all that stuff he doesn't need. I would be pretty pissed if I were him too...:rolleyes:

DaveGee
Jan 6, 2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
in response to your #4, they won't come with the OS upgrade.. the OS and iLife are now seperate.. to get the functionality you've come to expect from your Mac, you now need to pay $180 US, not just $129

Oh okay you seem to be quite up on this stuff... So, could you please provide some link that proves your statement to be fact? Cause till I see it otherwise then I'm going to assume Apple is still INCLUDING 'the latest' versions of iLife Apps (at the time the OS went GM) on the OS X install disks.

Did they not do that with iMovie v3.x (after all it wasn't available for DL any more) people here were pissed and bitchin cause they were "STUCK" with v2.x and didn't wanna pay...

So, did Panther come with the latest version of iMovie? I can't check now since I'm on a new G5 so I got all the newest iApps apps with the computer.

Dave

robotrenegade
Jan 6, 2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by edesignuk
Another reason to be pissed off with todays events, honestly, do they want to loose customers??????

If they think I'm paying $49 for an iPhoto update (which is all I'd want), they've got another thing coming...

*starts up IRC*

edit: reminds me a bit of the whole iTools to .Mac thing :rolleyes:

ok, I've done enough moaning for one night (justified IMO I might add), I'm off to bed to calm down...

I agree, this is an outrage!!!! I know its only 49 bucks but I just got a G5 and panther. They should give you this stuff for free. Panther is already 140.00

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by oldwatery
$49 for the bundle is more than cheap....so stop your whining. We all know each individual app is easily worth the price of admission. Agree on the incremental upgades....hopefully they will be free. As I watched the keynote I was burning to plonk down the $$$...oh well 10 days will pass fast enough! Nice one Steve/Apple.....we all expect too much of you sometimes ;)

I don't think you understand that not everyone wants to pay for ALL the apps when they only need one or two.

sosumi99
Jan 6, 2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by evilbert420
What a bunch of whiners. $50 for all that greatness... and it's not FREE so it SUCKS.

Go buy cheap PCs and run LINUX if you can't afford $50 for 5 great applications. Or run the old versions.

Seriously... some of you are embarassing.

Wow, what a self-satisfied and smug attitude.

Try to think about things from the perspective of people who recently got their machines. These people paid a premium for their Macs precisely because the iLife apps were included in the price of the machine, and they were led to believe that the premium would get them free updates for a while, as other Mac users had been getting them.

If they bought their Macs just a few months ago, they should be extremely angry at Apple's bait-and-switch tactics and they are right. They are not going to recommend Macs to their friends and they won't buy a new one in a year or so.

Seriously, that smugness in calling people who complain about this "whiners" without thinking about their position is embarrassing. The iLife package is not FREE -- it was paid for by the premium charged by Apple on their machines, and which everyone paid for.

sosumi99
Jan 6, 2004, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
I don't think you understand that not everyone wants to pay for ALL the apps when they only need one or two.

Exactly. I just want iPhoto. I'd be happy to pay $10 for the upgrade. I will NOT pay $49 for a bunch of apps that I don't use and don't care about.


This is just like .Mac. I'd be happy to pay $25 a year for the IMAP email, but not $100 for a bunch of other bundled stuff that I don't care about.

Apple can start to charge for these things, but unbundle them. They'd hear a lot less complaints and make more money.

TomSmithMacEd
Jan 6, 2004, 05:46 PM
Some people may be mad by this expo, but Garage Band was the exact software I've been looking for!!!! I'm very very happy. Plus about the money thing. 29 bucks edu discount.... for 5 programs... When garageband is worth much much more then that itself.. I'm happy. Plus if you are that desperate for cash just pirate it. It is quite easy.

pkscout
Jan 6, 2004, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by iJed
This has to be the most disappointing MacWorld since Apple announced that they would charge for iTools.

EDIT: Ok this has put me in a really bad mood now. I paid my Panther upgrade price and expected to get my iApps updated with it. Now how much do I have to pay a year? $130 for OS + $100 for .Mac + $50 for iLife. This is getting ridiculous!

Why would you expect the iApp upgrades to be included with the cost of Panther? Did anyone ever say those would be included?

Oh, and the amount you *have* to pay every year is $0. If you want to upgrade, that is your choice.

big duane
Jan 6, 2004, 05:47 PM
i'm not thrilled, but i'm not surprised either. i'll be needing the extra space on iphoto soon enough, though i may just keep separate libraries and wait of iLife05 in the mean time. ...clearly, i'm a patient guy.

centauratlas
Jan 6, 2004, 05:52 PM
$50 is nothing for 5 nice applications. There is no way that Apple wouldn't be paying a ton in bandwidth costs alone for iDVD and Garage Band.

Lets face it, updates cost money to develop, debug, download etc - OS's, applications etc.

You obviously liked what you had enough to buy it at first, so just keep what you have if you don't want new features and if $49 is too much.

amberashby
Jan 6, 2004, 05:52 PM
I've been holding off my new iBook purchase until today. Didn't get the price drop I had hoped for, but since Steve says iLife 04 will be free with a new Mac if I order today will I get some sort of certificate for a free upgrade?

MattG
Jan 6, 2004, 05:55 PM
I said it once and I'll say it again--$50 for these 5 apps is nothing. Worth every penny and more. Go price the closest equivalent to all of this software for Windows, and then tell me it's too much money.

evilbert420
Jan 6, 2004, 05:56 PM
"Seriously, that smugness in calling people who complain about this "whiners" without thinking about their position is embarrassing. The iLife package is not FREE -- it was paid for by the premium charged by Apple on their machines, and which everyone paid for."

Those versions were free, and they still work as advertised. The new versions add new features, right?

Look, I just bought a new Mac, and I also just shelled out $140 for Panther. To me, $49 is a steal, and $79 for 5 copies is flat-out amazing.

I think it IS whining, just like people whine when new machines get launched after they just bought theirs. Do we NOT expect technology to march on? Are you buying a new machine with X capabilities, or are you buying a place in Apple's product line and you want to maximize its place in that line?

Didn't iLife cost $49 last year? Aren't your free versions of the apps still free and still working? It's not like they're charging you for using those versions any more. They're charging for new features and new applications. It's your choice.

Obviously, some of you choose to whine. :D

pkscout
Jan 6, 2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
I don't think you understand that not everyone wants to pay for ALL the apps when they only need one or two.

OK, how about $20 per app or all five (four really since iTunes is still downloadable) for $50? So if you wanted to use 3 or more then it would be cheaper to buy the whole package. I'm sure that'll make a bunch of other people mad though. :D

Doesn't really matter, cause it won't happen.

tanlis
Jan 6, 2004, 05:57 PM
Sheesh guys, $49 is not that much. Lay off on the McD's or beer for a month and you got enough to pay for it in no time.

You have to realize that $49 goes to pay for alot of more than just the cost of the software. That's paying for the packaging, the cost of distribution, any printed manuals, any cd packaging and who knows what else.

Considering how well these apps do what they are designed to do, you are getting far more for your money than what it costs.

Now sure, I realize some of you only want one of these apps. But find me one app that does all of what one of these apps does...and is so cheap. I don't think you'll find one...and even if you do...you g et 4 more apps for the same price.

But you're saying...I only need that one app...well maybe now...what's to say in a year or whatever you find you need one of the others. You'd be sure glad you had the others and didn't have to pay another $49 or more for the other app.

This is a great bundle and a great deal.

iJed
Jan 6, 2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by pkscout
Why would you expect the iApp upgrades to be included with the cost of Panther? Did anyone ever say those would be included?

Oh, and the amount you *have* to pay every year is $0. If you want to upgrade, that is your choice.

The worst thing about being a Mac user is the Apple appologists who will go to any length to say that what Apple is doing is the right thing to do. If Apple started selling some of these people a block of plastic with no function at all for $5000 most of them would say that it was the greatest, coolest and most amazing block of plastic ever made and that the price was perfectly reasonable.

Anyway you ask why I expected the cost to be included with Panther. Well the answer is simple: because iMovie and iPhoto have always been free. I would not expect this to change. What Apple is doing is releasing the iLife bundle just after the OS to make users want the new apps. Some will buy these apps now and others will wait out with the obsolete versions until they buy the next OS upgrade. This seems like really evil business practise to me.

Next you say that I have to pay 0 every year. Wrong. I need to be able to use the latest versions of technologies such as Java and the Cocoa APIs as well as be able to run the latest developer tools. Basically I need this stuff for work.

steve-not-jobs
Jan 6, 2004, 06:01 PM
I haven't upgraded to Panther yet. iPhoto and iMovie comebundled with Panther. If you go to the Panther page on the Apple website and click on the bundled apps it takes you to the new iPhoto, iMovie.
Does this mean if I buy Panther in the future I get the v4 apps - I only need/use iPhoto and iMovie - not iDVD or Garageband.
I'd be p****d if I had bought Panther last week and had to pay again to update. Interesting to see if they allow downloads in a couple of weeks as they did last year. Not really equitable if they don't.

damson34
Jan 6, 2004, 06:01 PM
TO everyone saying that looking what happend last year, everyone thought we were going to have to pay and then 2 weeks later we didn't, it was said in the keynote that they were to be free downloads and also there was a place holder on the webosite saying the date that it was to be released

ICEBERG
Jan 6, 2004, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by MattG
I said it once and I'll say it again--$50 for these 5 apps is nothing. Worth every penny and more. Go price the closest equivalent to all of this software for Windows, and then tell me it's too much money.

For Canadian customers it is. I like iPhoto but don't need the other programs. So for me to dish out close to $100 buck CND for one program is too much when i could have had it free just this morning.:rolleyes:

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 06:04 PM
Didn't iLife cost $49 last year? Aren't your free versions of the apps still free and still working? It's not like they're charging you for using those versions any more. They're charging for new features and new applications. It's your choice.


Yes, but they were still downloadable off apples website (except for iDVD). But iMovie 3 for example works, but it is very slow so I would like a free upgrade (btw, iMovie 2 was fast)

x86isslow
Jan 6, 2004, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by qgrayson

- Apple should have at least offered an 'upgrade' price for those who invested in their first iLife package.

there's this
http://www.apple.com/ilife/uptodate/

mariner77
Jan 6, 2004, 06:06 PM
Stop complaining people, the iLife package is totally worth $49 ($29 if you are student!). Apple has spent a lot of effort and money to build these GREAT and UNIQUE applications for us Mac users, they should get something in return. I dare any of you to find any other vendor offering so much for so little (other than BSD and GNU people).

The bottom line is that Apple is not GNU, they HIRE software engineers to make these great apps and they should get something in return for their effort, $49 is more than reasonable, as matter of fact, it's outrageously cheap! That said, I'll be very outraged if Apple decide to raise the price at some point in the future.

Torajima
Jan 6, 2004, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by evilbert420
Those versions were free, and they still work as advertised. The new versions add new features, right?


There lies the problem... the last version of the iApps did NOT work as advertised. iPhoto was useless if you had more than a few hundred pictures. iMovie is slower than *****, even on my dual G5. It also crashes quite frequently. iDVD fails to burn DVDs reliably, has serious audio synch issues, and has brought down my ENTIRE system on two seperate occasions.

If Apple wants to charge for GarageBand, fine... it's probably worth $49 all by itself. But those of us who have struggled to get ANYTHING done with the last version of iLife should NOT have to pay to upgrade iDVD, iMovie, and iPhoto.

Sabenth
Jan 6, 2004, 06:07 PM
Its been said 50 dolloars aint bad for 5 apps that 2 of which are huge iDvd Garageband(cap name) This pays for itself and if you buy a new Mac you get it for nearly next too nothing..

the silver fox
Jan 6, 2004, 06:08 PM
Up until now they have been free. Free means a bonus. I appreciate that when something that was previously free is hard to stomach when you are suddenly charged for it, but seriously rating its cost against other products on the market price wise... $49 is really very little to ask for the quality of product you receive...

Lets look at iPhoto first. Now i know that this hasnt had the most responsive GUI, but I use this everyday. I take my smallest camera with me everywhere and take at least 30 pictures a day (buildings, textures for 3D etc) and use iPhoto as a catalog tool, something that photoshop CS the programme that I pay several hundred pounds for still doesnt do.

What about iMovie? I have friends (PC users only bless them) who come round to use iMovie to edit their stuff. I use Final Cut and Shake most days professionally, but they would rather use iMovie for the sheer easyness of the whole affair. It makes editing fun.

iTunes. Well this one is a bit of a stealth tax as no other product will integrate correctly if you buy an iPod, but the level of ease over its closest rivals is surely worth it, particularly given the ITMS offerings.

iDVD. Now this i love. If a client asks for a simple DVD more often than not i will use iDVD instead of DVD Studio Pro. Why? again it comes down to integration with the other products. I can log the clients pictures into iPhoto, the music to iTunes and bam... Job done.

And whats this? GarageBand? A new app combining some of the best elements of soundtrack ($299) and emagic logic 6 (£649) and puts them into another stupid-proof GUI for all of us. I'm no musician but I'm sold...

Somewhere down the line Apple has to charge us for developing these products given their small market share. The OS as has been mentioned always includes the iLife suite. If you really cant afford $49 for software then cut down on beer/books/music/cinema/coffees for a few weeks.

Kyle
Jan 6, 2004, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by edesignuk
If they think I'm paying $49 for an iPhoto update (which is all I'd want), they've got another thing coming...

My thoughts exactly.

Skull Leader
Jan 6, 2004, 06:13 PM
I'm not really suprised by this move. Good things cost money, and the new iLife package is a lot of good things for a very modest amount of money. As long as the new features are worth paying for, I have no problem shelling out for the iLife suite. The improvements to iDVD alone are pretty significant. The usage I get from the free iTunes on a daily basis alone justifys the cost.

I own FCP4 and SoundTrack, and Garageband is JUST like it with the added ability to record and control intruments (wow). It's just lacking the huge sound fx loop library, but you can always buy the extra loops. $49 for all the updates is a steal, no argument here.

mjtomlin
Jan 6, 2004, 06:14 PM
Try to think about things from the perspective of people who recently got their machines. These people paid a premium for their Macs precisely because the iLife apps were included in the price of the machine, .

I always love to hear this argument. People are irresponsible when comes to making purchases. When you buy a car, do you hope that someday it'll get twice the gas mileage with a simple, free add-on? No. You buy it for it is at that moment. That's what you pay for. If it's not worth the sticker price at the time you purchase it, then don't buy it! Duh. The iLife apps WERE included with the computer when you bought it. If they sucked so bad that you NEED these new versions, well then you're pretty dumb for making the decision to buy the computer with the useless freebies.

Apple NEVER promised free iApp upgrades for life. We have all been VERY fortunate for what we were able to get for free. If you don't like the free apps ... go buy one that suits your needs better. It's really that simple. Although, you're probably not going to find any one alternative that's as useful or feature rich for less than $50 -- which would get you all five from Apple.

Honestly, if it does turn out to be true that iPhoto and iMovie will no longer be free downloads, then I too will be saddened by it. I use iPhoto a lot and have always looked forward to the new features the upgrades provided. However, I have gotten my moneys worth from the previous versions I have been using, so I can't really complain about it. I also understand, Apple is a company and as such they need to make money and giving away all this free stuff eventually comes to an end. So when I am ready (have the money), I will more than likely buy the iLife suite.

AMPrkm
Jan 6, 2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by damson34
TO everyone saying that looking what happend last year, everyone thought we were going to have to pay and then 2 weeks later we didn't, it was said in the keynote that they were to be free downloads and also there was a place holder on the webosite saying the date that it was to be released

I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. Doesn't anyone remember that we had the exact same conversation about this last year, after Steve first talked about iLife and DIDN'T mention anything about free downloads? Please everyone, stop the madness! Apple has not announced any change of policy here. Until Apple says otherwise, there is no good reason to believe that iPhoto and iMovie won't still be free downloads.

ac2102
Jan 6, 2004, 06:16 PM
Just one question, as all the iApps were free before, what was the point in shelling out for the original iLife package?

ITR 81
Jan 6, 2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
There lies the problem... the last version of the iApps did NOT work as advertised. iPhoto was useless if you had more than a few hundred pictures. iMovie is slower than *****, even on my dual G5. It also crashes quite frequently. iDVD fails to burn DVDs reliably, has serious audio synch issues, and has brought down my ENTIRE system on two seperate occasions.

If Apple wants to charge for GarageBand, fine... it's probably worth $49 all by itself. But those of us who have struggled to get ANYTHING done with the last version of iLife should NOT have to pay to upgrade iDVD, iMovie, and iPhoto.

BS
I've had over 600+ pictures in iPhoto and it works fine. It's only when people near a 1,000 or go over 1,000 when they have issues.

Use Apple DVD's instead of the cheap stuff. I've never had problem with iDVD not burning to a Apple DVD-R

Never really used iMovie...so I can't comment on it.

More then likely all these apps will be upgraded in the next OS upgrade.

But I plan to buy two new Macs this yr so I'm not too worried. Plus, it's only $29 bucks whats the big deal. Basically the price of Finding Nemo DVD.

Anyone that says they were cheated sound like cry babies to me and need to understand Apple needs make money to make new products.

qgrayson
Jan 6, 2004, 06:17 PM
...but that's for those who buy systems...not the iLife software package.

- Some of us purchased the first iLife package in order to get the latest version of iDVD. That was last year. Now...if we want to upgrade THOSE apps we have to pay another 50 bucks.

- I agree with those who say that Apple should have kept the iApps separate. I'd rather pay a small fee to upgrade iMovie and iPhoto than have to buy apps I probably will never use just to get the needed upgrades.

- And let's be honest here: iMovie and iPhoto are dogs when it comes to performance.

nuckinfutz
Jan 6, 2004, 06:17 PM
Reading this thread is unbelievable.

Welfare mentality has taken over. There has be NO agreement from Apple regarding iLife updates. You people complaining are only thinking of yourselves. You're not thinking about that software engineer with the mortgage, car payment and mouths to feed. You claim bugs are your justification for wanting a free upgrade the bugs obviously did not prevent you from using the application.

Commerce is centered around a mutual consideration for products and services. Each party must benefit. However the defining characteristic in the complaints all revolve around what YOU want.

The choice is simple. If you perceive the value of iLife to be $49 you will buy it. If you don't then you'll wait until the value proposition is more favorable to you. It's obvious that you want it because if you didn't you wouldn't be complaining on these boards.

Time for a little introspection folks. Never ASSuME anything when dealing in commerce. You stay happier.

mariner77
Jan 6, 2004, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
I don't think you understand that not everyone wants to pay for ALL the apps when they only need one or two.

Not to be a wise guy but have you people ever thought TRYING the other apps? They might actually be FUN you know. Like most people I initially only used iTunes, now I use iPhoto more and more, I'm looking to start using iMovie once I get a analog to digital video converter and I just got a Firewire Audio interface so GarageBand might just be what I need next! The only thing I don't have is a SuperDrive so iDVD is kind of useless to me right now but even with just the other four apps, $49 is worth it.

I don't know about you but I feel excitement and joy when I buy an Apple product instead of 'oh here we go again.' I don't know why would you buy a product if it pains you so much to pay for it.

Tommy Wasabi
Jan 6, 2004, 06:18 PM
My GOD! Quit your whining! It's $49 - sure it was free - but I'd rather pay the $$ than use the CRAP they have on a PC and pay more.

For all those EDU buyers - it's only $29 for iLife and $69 for the extras (for Garage Band). Pony up the cash - it's a good bargin.

You guys are probably the ones bitching about .99 for a song. Geez, the only thing in life is free is jerking off and breathing.

Pirates - all of you.

<grin>

centauratlas
Jan 6, 2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
to get the functionality you've come to expect from your Mac, you now need to pay $180 US, not just $129

Actually, you don't have to do ANYTHING to "get the functionality you've come to expect from your Mac." I have yet to see that the old iApps are expiring.

Upgrading gets you *more* functionality.

ITR 81
Jan 6, 2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by ac2102
Just one question, as all the iApps were free before, what was the point in shelling out for the original iLife package?

For iDVD because it's never been free except when you got it with a OS upgrade.

The only thing I think they should have added was iChat A/V since they are already charging for it already.

centauratlas
Jan 6, 2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
Someone already brought this up, but we just paid $129 for panther and many of us don't want to shell out more money. :rolleyes:

Then don't. Just use what you have.

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by ac2102
Just one question, as all the iApps were free before, what was the point in shelling out for the original iLife package?

iDVD wasn't free, but basically anyone who wanted all the apps on cd's or people who couldnt downlaod them (i.e. have 56k) bought iLife

ct77
Jan 6, 2004, 06:21 PM
I'll join the "it's a good deal" crowd.

Steve made a good point when he compared what you get with iLife for $49 with what it would cost you for similar-but-worse software on Windows -- greater than $300.

Sure, we Mac users have gotten it all for free before, but come on.

It's still a great deal. Stop whining.

GarageBand looks incredible!

Keep up the good work, Apple!

sosumi99
Jan 6, 2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by evilbert420
"Seriously, that smugness in calling people who complain about this "whiners" without thinking about their position is embarrassing. The iLife package is not FREE -- it was paid for by the premium charged by Apple on their machines, and which everyone paid for."

Those versions were free, and they still work as advertised. The new versions add new features, right?

No. Those versions were not free. They were paid for as part of the price of the machine. And since iPhoto had a great deal of performance problems and Apple had always been offering updates to it for Mac users without charging extra, it was not an outrageous thing for users to think that part of the premium paid went to future updates that would fix the performance issues.

Originally posted by evilbert420 [QUOTE]
Obviously, some of you choose to whine. :D

Obviously, some of you like to call other people names and can't address their arguments without a personal attack.

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by centauratlas
Then don't. Just use what you have.

Earlier I said the newest version of iMove sucked.

centauratlas
Jan 6, 2004, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
"iLife" was part of that system, or so we thought.

Just because you thought something, doesn't make it mean that it *was*!

All this complaining is amazing. As someone who has gone from an Apple ][ to a ][+, to a 128K Mac to 512, 1MB, 4MB, and so on down the line, $49 bucks for upgraded (and new) software is nothing.

Torajima
Jan 6, 2004, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
BS
I've had over 600+ pictures in iPhoto and it works fine. It's only when people near a 1,000 or go over 1,000 when they have issues.

Use Apple DVD's instead of the cheap stuff. I've never had problem with iDVD not burning to a Apple DVD-R


600=a few hundred. Most people I know have far more than 600 photos, and iPhoto has serious issues with these NORMAL sized collections.

And I've used various brands of DVDs, including Apples. It makes no difference... iDVD's problems have absolutely nothing to do with the medium. The fact is the software is buggy, and bug fixes should be free!

canadianmacguy
Jan 6, 2004, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Reading this thread is unbelievable.

Welfare mentality has taken over. There has be NO agreement from Apple regarding iLife updates. You people complaining are only thinking of yourselves. You're not thinking about that software engineer with the mortgage, car payment and mouths to feed. You claim bugs are your justification for wanting a free upgrade the bugs obviously did not prevent you from using the application.

Commerce is centered around a mutual consideration for products and services. Each party must benefit. However the defining characteristic in the complaints all revolve around what YOU want.

The choice is simple. If you perceive the value of iLife to be $49 you will buy it. If you don't then you'll wait until the value proposition is more favorable to you. It's obvious that you want it because if you didn't you wouldn't be complaining on these boards.

Time for a little introspection folks. Never ASSuME anything when dealing in commerce. You stay happier.


Thank you!! Man, people.. do you think software just grows on trees? Apple just picked these after a year of growing?

$49 is a heck of a deal for one of these apps, never mind all of them.. and for those of you who pity the poor person who just shelled out for a G5, if they can't afford another $49 for this software, they should have gotten an eMac or iBook instead. (ie. they over extended themselves).

Sometimes it disgusts me that Mac users are so cheap, so opinionated, so expecting everything for free. Threads like this make me embarrassed to say I own a Macintosh.


If you don't like it, go buy a PC with Windows XP. You'll see how much better it is over here.

:mad:

elmimmo
Jan 6, 2004, 06:24 PM
However logical/rational this measure might be, of course that I am not happy by having to pay to upgrade (no ones asking me to delete the previous versions) apps that were free.

However I find that Apple was getting too close to Microsoft's strategy of "I'll bundle for free what you competitors try to charge customers for, so beat that" that has got the Big Bro into so many legal problems. Apple somewhat frees itself of the see-it-coming consequences off that strategy by taking this step.

coolbreeze
Jan 6, 2004, 06:24 PM
Well, this is the last straw. Between the overpriced .mac and yearly fees to use OSX, I will just use my mac as-is from now on. Once my .mac runs out (i.e. the only reason I have to use iPhoto) I will not renew. Subsequently, I will not purchase iPhoto. I don't use iMovie because I don't have a need.

What's next? Apple charges for iTunes and Safari? How about I just let Apple bill me $50/month just for the joy of using a mac?
:rolleyes: :mad:

Oh, no iPod for me either. Wonderful Keynote. Just spectacular.

Sabbath
Jan 6, 2004, 06:26 PM
The thing that really bugs me about Apples recent software pricing is the differentials in US and UK prices, especially considering the differentials in discount offered to students.

Panther was $130 normally in the US and $69 edu price if I remember correctly, in the UK it was £99 ($180) and £69 ($129) for students.

And now iLife is $49 normally and $29 for students in the US and £39 ($71) normally and £29 ($52) for students.

I know there are tax and other differences, but I dont see why the eductaion discounts must be so much smaller in the UK.

centauratlas
Jan 6, 2004, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
iPhoto was useless if you had more than a few hundred pictures. iMovie is slower than *****, even on my dual G5.

Somehow it works fine with about 2500 phones on my G4. Ditto for iDVD with burning a total of 25 different DVDs. Just my experience.

canadianmacguy
Jan 6, 2004, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by coolbreeze
Well, this is the last straw. Between the overpriced .mac and yearly fees to use OSX, I will just use my mac as-is from now on. Once my .mac runs out (i.e. the only reason I have to use iPhoto) I will not renew. Subsequently, I will not purchase iPhoto. I don't use iMovie because I don't have a need.

What's next? Apple charges for iTunes and Safari? How about I just let Apple bill me $50/month just for the joy of using a mac?
:rolleyes: :mad:

Oh, no iPod for me either. Wonderful Keynote. Just spectacular.

Good, leave.. please. You're not wanted.

Lancetx
Jan 6, 2004, 06:28 PM
Anyone that complains about the price of the iLife suite or the iPod mini really needs to consider if they should even be using a Mac or anything from Apple at all.

As I've said before, do you see Microsoft or anyone else offering any software suite remotely similar for less than $49 whether it be for the Mac or for Windows? No. Do you see Dell, Rio or anyone else offering anything comparable to the iPod mini (tiny size and 4GB capacity) for less than $249? No. So stop the complaining already people. You can't hold Apple to such a ridiculous pricing standard when nobody else is offering those prices either, not to mention that the quality and ease of use is certain to be vastly superior to the competition.

sosumi99
Jan 6, 2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by mjtomlin
When you buy a car, do you hope that someday it'll get twice the gas mileage with a simple, free add-on? No. You buy it for it is at that moment. That's what you pay for. If it's not worth the sticker price at the time you purchase it, then don't buy it! Duh. The iLife apps WERE included with the computer when you bought it. If they sucked so bad that you NEED these new versions, well then you're pretty dumb for making the decision to buy the computer with the useless freebies.

...

Honestly, if it does turn out to be true that iPhoto and iMovie will no longer be free downloads, then I too will be saddened by it. I use iPhoto a lot and have always looked forward to the new features the upgrades provided. However, I have gotten my moneys worth from the previous versions I have been using, so I can't really complain about it. I also understand, Apple is a company and as such they need to make money and giving away all this free stuff eventually comes to an end. So when I am ready (have the money), I will more than likely buy the iLife suite.

It's fine that you don't think the price of the machine includes the price of some (I didn't say all) updates in software. Your position is reasonable. But it is equally reasonable, and not "stupid," for people to come to Apple with the expectation that some of the updates to their apps that have known performance problems will be free due to the extra price charged and due to the company's past practice.

I don't see what is wrong with complaining about Apple's business practices. They are a company and they can evaluate their trade practice based on customer response. For example, I'm not even complaining about charging for iLife per se. I don't like it, but I think I'll be happy if they would unbundle the apps and sell them separately.

centauratlas
Jan 6, 2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by ac2102
Just one question, as all the iApps were free before, what was the point in shelling out for the original iLife package?

IIRC, iDVD was never free. That alone was enough to shell out for iLife. Having everything on DVD was enough of a reason for me.

QCassidy352
Jan 6, 2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Nebrie
Why are you whining about the price, doesnt even seem like you need it. You don't have to buy everything Apple releases.

As I said, iphoto is currently crap. I want a version that is not crap. And I don't want to pay $50 to fix problems that never should have existed in the first place. Are we clear now?

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by canadianmacguy
Good, leave.. please. You're not wanted.

hmmm... well I think that is rather rude. The guy makes a good point.

wdlove
Jan 6, 2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Tommy Wasabi
My GOD! Quit your whining! It's $49 - sure it was free - but I'd rather pay the $$ than use the CRAP they have on a PC and pay more.

For all those EDU buyers - it's only $29 for iLife and $69 for the extras (for Garage Band). Pony up the cash - it's a good bargin.

You guys are probably the ones bitching about .99 for a song. Geez, the only thing in life is free is jerking off and breathing.

Pirates - all of you.

<grin>

I agree, you won't hear any complaint from me. Thought that Steve did an excellent explanation about its value compared to Windows. If I remember correctly the same software would be around $300, but with lower quality. GarageBand is quite impressive, think I might try a little arranging myself. Apple needs to recoup its R&D somehow.

ITR 81
Jan 6, 2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
600=a few hundred. Most people I know have far more than 600 photos, and iPhoto has serious issues with these NORMAL sized collections.

And I've used various brands of DVDs, including Apples. It makes no difference... iDVD's problems have absolutely nothing to do with the medium. The fact is the software is buggy, and bug fixes should be free!

Few hundred means 200-300 Not 600+ or more.

Never had issue with mine. Worked well over last 12 months.

centauratlas
Jan 6, 2004, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
Earlier I said the newest version of iMove sucked.

I haven't seen a problem with it and I've used it to make about 25-30 DVDs.

But, if it sucked, why not use different software? Afterall, you got it for "free" as everyone complaining has repeatedly said, so no loss.

nuckinfutz
Jan 6, 2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
As I said, iphoto is currently crap. I want a version that is not crap. And I don't want to pay $50 to fix problems that never should have existed in the first place. Are we clear now?

Then don't pay. We don't care how you spend your money or not spend your money. If you thought iPhoto could be replaced easier you'd be doing that. But instead you can't so you complain. It's obvious.

Your position is reasonable. But it is equally reasonable, and not "stupid," for people to come to Apple with the expectation that some of the updates to their apps that have known performance problems will be free due to the extra price charged and due to the company's past practice.

It is NOT equally reasonable and that is why there are 4 people complaining here on the boards and not more. Unless otherwise stipulated you purchase products "as is". Apple never guaranteed you stellar performance. You post is based on the fragile ideology that Apple somewhere told you that you'd have software updates in perpetuity. Wrong.

I don't see what is wrong with complaining about Apple's business practices. They are a company and they can evaluate their trade practice based on customer response. For example, I'm not even complaining about charging for iLife per se. I don't like it, but I think I'll be happy if they would unbundle the apps and sell them separately.

Apples Business Practices the poster above clearly stated this is the norm. You may as well complain about EVERY company. If sufficient demand for unbundled apps is made perhaps Apple will do that.

The economy does not allow Apple to subsidize the cost of this development for free anymore. If you think it's easy to program even something basic like the iLife apps go to school and learn.

jouster
Jan 6, 2004, 06:33 PM
Such ******** from Apple.

I really have no gripe with starting to charge, but surely it's not too much to ask that I get some kinda break if I'VE JUST SPENT $129 on the new OS?

Same for those who bought iLife last time, or have just bought a new mac. Now remember, before you accuse me of being cheap, that you're fair game if you buy hardware before an expo then moan about an expo upgrade, but this came from nowhere. Think about it - probably plenty of people bought Panther yesterday (the sort of people who have no idea there will be expos and rumors) and now they have to shell out another $49? Out of date in 24 hours?

Give me a break.

I can afford to buy them, and I'm perfectly aware that I don't have to (the absurd and obvious response of many of those defending the charge), but I strongly object to this.

This is bait and switch at its worst. It is the sort of slimy practice favored by those companies you see being exposed on early evening TV shows.

And this is without even addressing the MANY shortcomings of the programs. As someone said earlier, $49 for bug fixes?

Well, my software/OS upgrades are now tied to hardware upgrades. $129 + $49 + $99 (.mac) per year AND a hefty premium for hardware that IS NOT (G5 excepted, and only in certain circumstances) comparable to Wintel specs?

No thanks, Apple.

qgrayson
Jan 6, 2004, 06:33 PM
- For those who don't want to or can't shell out another 50 bucks...Apple is leaving them with applications (iMovie,iPhoto,iDVD) that perform in a substandard manner. The 'free' version of iMovie is left at 3.xx...which has some serious flaws...that seemingly are addressed in the commercial version. The same goes for iPhoto.

- In other words...if you want a 'working' version of any of these iApps...you'll have to shell out another 50 dollars. But now I understand why Apple hasn't fixed the problems with these Apps.

sosumi99
Jan 6, 2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Lancetx
Anyone that complains about the price of the iLife suite or the iPod mini really needs to consider if they should even be using a Mac or anything from Apple at all.

No. So stop the complaining already people. You can't hold Apple to such a ridiculous pricing standard when nobody else is offering those prices either, not to mention that the quality and ease of use is certain to be vastly superior to the competition.

Holding Apple to high standards is what will get them to keep on putting out good products though. :)

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 06:34 PM
I personally don't trust Steve Jobs comparing iLife to comaprable windows apps. He just compares iLife to the mainstream windows apps, not that small ones that are free.

greenstork
Jan 6, 2004, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by sosumi99
Wow, what a self-satisfied and smug attitude.

Try to think about things from the perspective of people who recently got their machines. These people paid a premium for their Macs precisely because the iLife apps were included in the price of the machine, and they were led to believe that the premium would get them free updates for a while, as other Mac users had been getting them.

If they bought their Macs just a few months ago, they should be extremely angry at Apple's bait-and-switch tactics and they are right. They are not going to recommend Macs to their friends and they won't buy a new one in a year or so.

Seriously, that smugness in calling people who complain about this "whiners" without thinking about their position is embarrassing. The iLife package is not FREE -- it was paid for by the premium charged by Apple on their machines, and which everyone paid for.

I'm sorry but cry me a river. those folks who paid a premium for their computers got exactly what they paid for, and it INCLUDED iLife. Innovation cost money.

That said, I think paid upgrades suck when many of them were once free but I don't buy the argument of the poor whiny person who just bought their computer and now has to pay for an upgrade. that person still has a nice iLife suite on their computer already.

SWC
Jan 6, 2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
I don't think you understand that not everyone wants to pay for ALL the apps when they only need one or two.

It doesn't matter if you need 1 app 2 apps or all 5 apps, $50 is a good deal no matter which way you look at it. hell ANYONE can get the $29 edu price, apple does no verification at all to see wether or not you are enrolled.

As for those who bought panther...they didn't promise you any kind of new and exciting versions of iLife apps sow ahts there to be pissed at? boo hoo they released newer software. I have customer that bought Jaguar 3 months before panther came out. It happens, it's life, no major software vendor gives free upgrades between major point releases. So what who cares if they were free and now they aren't. Keep using the free version if you dont like the price of the new one. but $50 for any single one of these apps is well worth it when compared to the competition either on the mac or the pc much less $50 for all 5. If you only want one app than its $50 for one app and not still a great deal.

And to buy an apple because it comes with $50 of free software at a few hundred dollar premium, you guys are idiots, I mean who the hell buys a computer for for $500 over the competition because it comes with iPhoto. You pay a premium for reliability, stability, ease of use and all that the other add-ons are just bonuses.

ITR 81
Jan 6, 2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
As I said, iphoto is currently crap. I want a version that is not crap. And I don't want to pay $50 to fix problems that never should have existed in the first place. Are we clear now?

Aren't you a pissy one.
Cry all you might, it won't change the fact that it still costs $49 bucks.

For me thats only $29 bucks.

Thats with my gov. or edu. discount.

centauratlas
Jan 6, 2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by elmimmo
However I find that Apple was getting too close to Microsoft's strategy of "I'll bundle for free what you competitors try to charge customers for, so beat that" that has got the Big Bro into so many legal problems. Apple somewhat frees itself of the see-it-coming consequences off that strategy by taking this step.

Obviously, I'd love to see it free, but the alternative is to bundle the development costs into the costs of new Macs. Would you prefer that Apple charge $200-$300 more per new Mac in order to subsidize current Mac owners? The obvious answer is that they can't do that if they want to be price competitive with the Windows world.

There is no free lunch, someone has to pick up the costs for Apple, and why shouldn't it be the people that *want* the new features?


A couple of points:
1. I'd prefer it bundled with a new Mac or to pay $49 for software that works together (and well, at least for me) instead of having to go out, find whatever apps will work etc.

2. If competitors are bundling, then they have to respond to some extent.

mullmann
Jan 6, 2004, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by JoeRadar
But if Apple wants to make money from iLife, will Apple move iLife to Windows?

Why not the rest of iLife?

Because it wouldn't be iLife. Windows just can't yet do the graphics-intensive quartz extreme/OpenGL stuff that the Mac OS and associated hardware can do.

mainemike
Jan 6, 2004, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by jeffff
I can't imagine why anyone would complain about having to pay 10 bucks apiece for five of the greatest apps that ever came down the pike. Come on!


I agree -

The free ride was nice while it lasted, but $49 really isn't that bad at all. It's good software, too!

Hey I've spent $49 on crappy shareware before; iLife '04 is a bargain.

QCassidy352
Jan 6, 2004, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Lancetx
Anyone that complains about the price of the iLife suite or the iPod mini really needs to consider if they should even be using a Mac or anything from Apple at all.

As I've said before, do you see Microsoft or anyone else offering any software suite remotely similar for less than $49 whether it be for the Mac or for Windows? No. Do you see Dell, Rio or anyone else offering anything comparable to the iPod mini (tiny size and 4GB capacity) for less than $249? No. So stop the complaining already people. You can't hold Apple to such a ridiculous pricing standard when nobody else is offering those prices either, not to mention that the quality and ease of use is certain to be vastly superior to the competition.

I use macs because they are superior to the competition. And I pay a premium for doing so. Pointing out that a Mac is NO WORSE than the competition is not much of an argument. I know that Rio/ MS/ Dell etc. suck. If Apple is going to be the same way, why would I pay more to own one?

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by SWC
It doesn't matter if you need 1 app 2 apps or all 5 apps, $50 is a good deal no matter which way you look at it. hell ANYONE can get the $29 edu price, apple does no verification at all to see wether or not you are enrolled.

upgrading to a good version of iMove should not cost $50

Sorry, but if you abuse apple's edu system then they will probably take it away..

ITR 81
Jan 6, 2004, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by jouster
Such ************ from Apple.

I really have no gripe with starting to charge, but surely it's not too much to ask that I get some kinda break if I'VE JUST SPENT $129 on the new OS?

Same for those who bought iLife last time, or have just bought a new mac. Now remember, before you accuse me of being cheap, that you're fair game if you buy hardware before an expo then moan about an expo upgrade, but this came from nowhere. Think about it - probably plenty of people bought Panther yesterday (the sort of people who have no idea there will be expos and rumors) and now they have to shell out another $49? Out of date in 24 hours?

Give me a break.

I can afford to buy them, and I'm perfectly aware that I don't have to (the absurd and obvious response of many of those defending the charge), but I strongly object to this.

This is bait and switch at its worst. It is the sort of slimy practice favored by those companies you see being exposed on early evening TV shows.

And this is without even addressing the MANY shortcomings of the programs. As someone said earlier, $49 for bug fixes?

Well, my software/OS upgrades are now tied to hardware upgrades. $129 + $49 + $99 (.mac) per year AND a hefty premium for hardware that IS NOT (G5 excepted, and only in certain circumstances) comparable to Wintel specs?

No thanks, Apple.

What you want something cheaper??? Go Linux then. Or you can always go Windows which means a OS upgrade will cost you around $200+ or more and $300 for what you get in iLife.

People are not thankful for what we have.
This just shows the world is turning to **** when people want take everything for free and give nothing back in return.

bdkennedy1
Jan 6, 2004, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
I don't think you understand that not everyone wants to pay for ALL the apps when they only need one or two.
So I only use Microsoft Word and have no use for Excel, PowerPoint or Entourage but I still have to buy the whole Office suite.

centauratlas
Jan 6, 2004, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by jouster
Think about it - probably plenty of people bought Panther yesterday (the sort of people who have no idea there will be expos and rumors) and now they have to shell out another $49? Out of date in 24 hours?


So, if I go out and buy a new TV today and a new model is released tomorrow at the electronics expo (Bill Gates is speaking etc), what?

No matter what the cut-off, someone, somewhere will have bought in the previous 24 hours. At some point they need to that off.

Ling
Jan 6, 2004, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
600=a few hundred. Most people I know have far more than 600 photos, and iPhoto has serious issues with these NORMAL sized collections.

iPhoto is cripples my iBook with a mere 500 photos in the library. I need this update...free or not.

Suggestion: Instead of crying to the forum that you don't want to shell out $50 for one program, why not write to Apple and ask for an answer, since nobody actually knows if iPhoto is going to be free or not. Then, if Apple says you have to shell out the cash, you can proceed to blast Apple

ChrisH3677
Jan 6, 2004, 06:41 PM
It's $79 AUD and personally I reckon each app alone is worth that. So even if I only used one app (i use them all), it'd be worth it. And I've just placed my order.

If I buy it only once a year (rather than every time they upgrade), I'm more than happy to pay $79 - and I certainly don't have money laying around waiting to be spent.

It's dirt cheap.

One of the drawbacks of the Linux and internet revolutions has been so many people expect everything for free.

Torajima
Jan 6, 2004, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by centauratlas
I haven't seen a problem with it and I've used it to make about 25-30 DVDs.

But, if it sucked, why not use different software? Afterall, you got it for "free" as everyone complaining has repeatedly said, so no loss.

I suggest you people visit Apple's own discussion forums and read about the serious issues MANY users are experiencing with iMovie and iDVD. If you're not having issues, consider yourself lucky.

mullmann
Jan 6, 2004, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by amberashby
I've been holding off my new iBook purchase until today. Didn't get the price drop I had hoped for, but since Steve says iLife 04 will be free with a new Mac if I order today will I get some sort of certificate for a free upgrade?

You'll qualify for their "up-to-date" program. Not entirely free, since you'll have to pay for shipping, which is $19.95. Not the best deal, but at least they are consistent -- that's what they charged to ship Panther as part of its up-to-date program.

http://www.apple.com/ilife/uptodate/

EDIT: Since iLife 04 is supposed to be available next week (IIRC), you might just hold off a week on your order.

SWC
Jan 6, 2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by jouster
This is bait and switch at its worst. It is the sort of slimy practice favored by those companies you see being exposed on early evening TV shows.



So are they supposed to anounce theyre going to anounce new software before hand? If you buy a 2003 model car the day before the 2004 comes out they dont say "we know you just bought an '03 but since the '04 just came out well give it to you for free"

QCassidy352
Jan 6, 2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Aren't you a pissy one.
Cry all you might, it won't change the fact that it still costs $49 bucks.

For me thats only $29 bucks.

Thats with my gov. or edu. discount.

The guy said I didn't need the updates so I shouldn't care. I explained why I should care.

Oh, and for me, that's $0. One way or another.

ITR 81
Jan 6, 2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
I use macs because they are superior to the competition. And I pay a premium for doing so. Pointing out that a Mac is NO WORSE than the competition is not much of an argument. I know that Rio/ MS/ Dell etc. suck. If Apple is going to be the same way, why would I pay more to own one?

If you don't like to pay for technology why the hell did you even buy a computer at all? Nothing is free because eventually we all pay for it in some form or fashion.

BlueMars
Jan 6, 2004, 06:42 PM
I like the looks of the new iLife package - and Iím especially anxious to give GarageBand a try.

Yes, itís probably going to cost me $3,500 plus, Canadian, before I get iLife 4, but then itíll come with a new 20Ē G5 iMac. Woo hooo!! (Now, I just have to wait for the new iMac to actually appear, and THEN I can do the upgrade.)

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by bdkennedy1
So I only use Microsoft Word and have no use for Excel, PowerPoint or Entourage but I still have to buy the whole Office suite.

I never said that I though that was a good idea either...

centauratlas
Jan 6, 2004, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
I suggest you people visit Apple's own discussion forums and read about the serious issues MANY users are experiencing with iMovie and iDVD. If you're not having issues, consider yourself lucky.

I do. I've been using them since the first versions without issues.

coolbreeze
Jan 6, 2004, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by canadianmacguy
Good, leave.. please. You're not wanted.
I will refrain from responding in such a rude tone...

I'm obviously an Apple enthusiast (see my numerous posts) and I will disregard your useless knee-jerk comment.

My point had a strong hint of sarcasm to it. Sorry you didn't see that. I, like many others, are just frustrated by the recent news. That doesn't mean I'm throwing my iBook out the window.

Jeez.

Timothy
Jan 6, 2004, 06:44 PM
Pleeezzzeee....

I use iPhoto almost daily, and I have over 2800 photos in it currently. Is it slow? Yes. But, even being slow, it is still the best product available doing what it does. I love iPhoto, it has changed the way I take and archive photos. I could continue using it today, as is, and would still be happy with it, even though I wish it were faster...

But, what do you know? Apple's software engineers have been hard at work, and have developed an amazing new version of iPhoto. The Best photo library app just got better. Quick, how much do you want for it? $49? That's all? Where do I sign...

Oh, wait, there's more you say? I get the world's greatest consumer movie editing program? The worlds greatest consumer dvd creation tool? and now, I even get the over-the-top amazing consumer-level Garage Band? All for the same price? $49 freaking bucks? The cost of taking my family to a single movie?

Even Ron Popeil couldn't top this offer from Apple.

That you got it for free is a BENEFIT. Clearly, with the work Apple has put into these programs, you can't expect it to be free forever. If you don't need the new apps, don't pay the measly upgrade fee, and just wait until you buy your next computer, where they will be free.

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
If you don't like to pay for technology why the hell did you even buy a computer at all? Nothing is free because eventually we all pay for it in some form or fashion.

Sorry, but fixing iPhoto and iMovie like they should have been done awhile ago is not technology..

ITR 81
Jan 6, 2004, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
The guy said I didn't need the updates so I shouldn't care. I explained why I should care.

Oh, and for me, that's $0. One way or another.

It's going to come with next OS upgrade so I'm not even sure why everyone is so uptight about this.

I spent this much on a DVD I bought a month ago so it's not big deal for me and to most of my friends.

QCassidy352
Jan 6, 2004, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
If you don't like to pay for technology why the hell did you even buy a computer at all? Nothing is free because eventually we all pay for it in some form or fashion.

You're not making any sense. I don't like freeware becoming payware, and therefore I shouldn't have bought a computer? Ok, if you say so. :rolleyes:

Yes, we do pay for it. By buying vastly overpriced hardware and $130 OS upgrades. That seems like enough to me.

mullmann
Jan 6, 2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by ac2102
Just one question, as all the iApps were free before, what was the point in shelling out for the original iLife package?

iDVD was never free. To get it at all, you either had to buy a Mac with a Superdrive, or buy iLife.

jouster
Jan 6, 2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
What you want something cheaper??? Go Linux then. Or you can always go Windows which means a OS upgrade will cost you around $200+ or more and $300 for what you get in iLife.

People are not thankful for what we have.
This just shows the world is turning to **** when people want take everything for free and give nothing back in return.

Did you read my post?

I specifically said that I didn't mind paying, as long as I wasn't screwed by the timing. I object to the way Apple has gone about implementing this charge, and to the fact that these are bug fixes disguised as upgrades.

Go Linux. What sort of answer is that?

szark
Jan 6, 2004, 06:49 PM
Well, I think it's confirmed, because they are selling an iLife '04 Family Pack (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?productLearnMore=M9466Z/A) for $79.

I don't think they would be concerned about multiple computer licensing if you could still download the programs for free.

ITR 81
Jan 6, 2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
Sorry, but fixing iPhoto and iMovie like they should have been done awhile ago is not technology..

No matter, no one gives away free app's unless they can either get money from the end user or get benifits other ways.
If the costs out run the benifits of giving it away for free then that means either charge for it or end the program.

Would you rather Apple end iLife or make people pay for it??

AppleMatt
Jan 6, 2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
BS
I've had over 600+ pictures in iPhoto and it works fine. It's only when people near a 1,000 or go over 1,000 when they have issues.

I suppose we all shouldn't go near that figure then :rolleyes:
and for the later poster who says going over 1000 is unreasonable...why would Steve Jobs dedicate a whole section of his keynote amazing the crowd of how iPhoto 4 can handle 25,000 pictures instantly.

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
You're not thinking about that software engineer with the mortgage, car payment and mouths to feed. You claim bugs are your justification for wanting a free upgrade the bugs obviously did not prevent you from using the application.

iTunes, iPhoto and iMovie have been free for years, yes years. Why the sudden change? The $4b in the bank (steadily flying up with all those iPod and iTMS sales) getting a small dent? Doubt it.

Thousands would still buy the iLife '04 box for GarageBand and iDVD alone, just like they bought the iLife 1.0/1.1 boxes, which had less in them.

Originally posted by canadianmacguy
Sometimes it disgusts me that Mac users are so cheap, so opinionated, so expecting everything for free. Threads like this make me embarrassed to say I own a Macintosh.

Try telling that to the guy who bought the maxed-out 12" PowerBook days before Panther was released, found out he didn't qualify for the up-to-date program ($129 for Panther), found out his iSight wouldn't work with Jaguar without paying an extra $30 (and not saying this on the box) or upgrading to Panther and didn't work in iMovie, which would require either 3rd party software or iLife '04. This after upgrading his "free email for life" iTools account, which he established a business on, to a $99 .mac account, soon after...
sorry, we're cheap?

Originally posted by canadianmacguy
Good, leave.. please. You're not wanted.

Why, because he doesn't have the same opinion as you? I think with that attitude you should leave.


To be honest, I think we should all wait until the 16th and rant then, if Apple do the worst :(

AppleMatt

Macmaniac
Jan 6, 2004, 06:50 PM
It think GarageBand is well worth the $50, I have been looking for a low cost simple audio app for the longest time, and it works with iTunes and iMovie which is great for the movies I make. Believe me iLife is worth getting because of GarageBand alone.

QCassidy352
Jan 6, 2004, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81

I spent this much on a DVD I bought a month ago so it's not big deal for me and to most of my friends.

Ah. Now I see. How nice for you and your friends that $50 means nothing to you. Please try to understand that this is not the case for everyone.

No, nobody *has* to buy it. For people who use these apps frequently, and find them nice but very flawed, going from free to pay, without even an option to buy only the one you want, pretty much sucks.

greenstork
Jan 6, 2004, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by coolbreeze
I will refrain from responding in such a rude tone...

I'm obviously an Apple enthusiast (see my numerous posts) and I will disregard your useless knee-jerk comment.

My point had a strong hint of sarcasm to it. Sorry you didn't see that. I, like many others, are just frustrated by the recent news. That doesn't mean I'm throwing my iBook out the window.

Jeez.

I happen to agree with you CB. The fact remains that in order to stay current with Mac software, it is becoming more costly every year. Some people are willing to shell out as much as it takes to remain an Apple user. Apple is milking their ever loyal user base for more money every year and I for one resent that.

Maybe some can pass it off as the cost of innovation but make no mistake, these moves are about pleasing the stockholders.

nuckinfutz
Jan 6, 2004, 06:52 PM
[i]Originally posted by jouster
Such ************ from Apple.

I really have no gripe with starting to charge, but surely it's not too much to ask that I get some kinda break if I'VE JUST SPENT $129 on the new OS?

What about buying a $130 OS makes you feel so important? iLife is a different product I don't see why your purchase in one area should grant you a freebie in another.

Same for those who bought iLife last time, or have just bought a new mac. Now remember, before you accuse me of being cheap, that you're fair game if you buy hardware before an expo then moan about an expo upgrade, but this came from nowhere. Think about it - probably plenty of people bought Panther yesterday (the sort of people who have no idea there will be expos and rumors) and now they have to shell out another $49? Out of date in 24 hours?

Give me a break.

Do they really have to? Will their computer stop working if they don't have iLife 4? What the market will bear. If you want it ...buy it...if not then wait.

This is bait and switch at its worst. It is the sort of slimy practice favored by those companies you see being exposed on early evening TV shows.

Sheesh man you're making no sense. A "Bait and Switch" is advertising a low priced item and then refusing to sell the low priced item if it's out of stock and attempting to switch to a higher priced product. For the life of me I cannot understand why people cannot get the concept of a "Bait and Switch" right. Might I suggest lowering the amount of television you watch.

And this is without even addressing the MANY shortcomings of the programs. As someone said earlier, $49 for bug fixes?

LOL bug fixes you so conveniently didn't mention. Do you actually believe the stuff you're writing?



No thanks, Apple.

Good you've finally realized that it IS YOUR choice.

nuckinfutz
Jan 6, 2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
Ah. Now I see. How nice for you and your friends that $50 means nothing to you. Please try to understand that this is not the case for everyone.

No, nobody *has* to buy it. For people who use these apps frequently, and find them nice but very flawed, going from free to pay, without even an option to buy only the one you want, pretty much sucks.

I guess that's because the world must revolve around their needs huh? I'm sure they go to work and work for free. The complaints boil down to one thing. You expect Apple to pay the bill for your meal even if you didn't like the steak.


iTunes, iPhoto and iMovie have been free for years, yes years. Why the sudden change? The $4b in the bank (steadily flying up with all those iPod and iTMS sales) getting a small dent? Doubt it.

Thousands would still buy the iLife '04 box for GarageBand and iDVD alone, just like they bought the iLife 1.0/1.1 boxes, which had less in them.

The economy. There were lots of items that were free a few years ago that now cost. 4 Billion in the bank aint there because Apple's giving stuff away. The is one immutable fact. The people complaining WANT the software...they just don't want to pay for it.

Elektronkind
Jan 6, 2004, 06:54 PM
http://elektronkind.org/localimg/baby.gif

/ek

ITR 81
Jan 6, 2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
You're not making any sense. I don't like freeware becoming payware, and therefore I shouldn't have bought a computer? Ok, if you say so. :rolleyes:

Yes, we do pay for it. By buying vastly overpriced hardware and $130 OS upgrades. That seems like enough to me.

90% of all Freeware becomes payware.
Why would someone give it away if it no long benifits him or her?

Apple either should charge for it or end the iLife completely.

If you think you pay too much for a Mac and the OS then why did you even buy a Mac in the first place?

mullmann
Jan 6, 2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
As I said, iphoto is currently crap. I want a version that is not crap. And I don't want to pay $50 to fix problems that never should have existed in the first place. Are we clear now?

While it is appropriate to have high-standards for products we want to endorse, and unfortunate that Apple failed to meet yours, you've paid nothing for that so-called crap software. If it weren't doing what I wanted, I would agree that it would be nice to get it that way without further cost -- except that it has cost you nothing whatsoever to this point. If you're trying to make the case that you've been ripped off, it doesn't seem makeable.

hayesk
Jan 6, 2004, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by edesignuk
Another reason to be pissed off with todays events, honestly, do they want to loose customers??????

Uhm... first of all it's "lose", not "loose" and you didn't pay for it in the first place. You are not a customer of iPhoto. Why should Apple let you have it for free - which it hasn't been confirmed that they won't? (I hardly call CNet an authority on Apple)

If they think I'm paying $49 for an iPhoto update (which is all I'd want), they've got another thing coming...


FYI, it's "they've got another think coming". - not "thing".

jouster
Jan 6, 2004, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by SWC
So are they supposed to anounce theyre going to anounce new software before hand? If you buy a 2003 model car the day before the 2004 comes out they dont say "we know you just bought an '03 but since the '04 just came out well give it to you for free"

No, they're supposed to refrain from gouging those who have just bought the apps as part of the OS (which is how they present it at their site, NOT as an app).

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 06:55 PM
What about buying a $130 OS makes you feel so important?

umm.... because it costs $130.:rolleyes:

eazyway
Jan 6, 2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
I think the core of the argument is that we (as Apple Consumers) should feel priviledged because we have the OPPORTUNITY to BUY iLife.. No mention, or thought given, to that we already pay a premium on hardware just simply to run the software (and i believe that ifApple were to release an x86 version of Mac OS their monopoly would collapse).. iLife apps were the right of the (double the) price of the hardware.. Now, to those that already have bought the premium priced hardware, the software is no longer a right, it's a priviledge which can be taken away at any time without warning..

Premium priced hardware. Depends what you call premium price. I just finished pricing out Dell vs Apple for a customer for similar products (Apple has no bottom low end) and there was a maximum small premium of $159 US and a lower price for the dual 2 ghz G5 vs the Dual Xenon 3.2 "s. If you look at the low end numbers only for both suppliers than you see a premium. But just try buying a Dell product with a few upgrades and watch the price soar.

ITR 81
Jan 6, 2004, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by jouster
Did you read my post?

I specifically said that I didn't mind paying, as long as I wasn't screwed by the timing. I object to the way Apple has gone about implementing this charge, and to the fact that these are bug fixes disguised as upgrades.

Go Linux. What sort of answer is that?

Thats like someone saying I don't want the new 90nm G5's to come out because it will make my 130nm G5 look bad.

Well I'm sorry but if you don't like updated and upgrades every 3-4 months you probably should've never bought a computer then. The Linux OS is the only current OS in which updates don't cost you a dime if your willing to copy the ISO to a CD.

nuckinfutz
Jan 6, 2004, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
You're not making any sense. I don't like freeware becoming payware, and therefore I shouldn't have bought a computer? Ok, if you say so. :rolleyes:

Yes, we do pay for it. By buying vastly overpriced hardware and $130 OS upgrades. That seems like enough to me.

Speaks volumes about your intelligence if you actually admit to buying "vastly overpriced" hardware. That was your choice right ?? Perhaps you should be a bit more wise with your money. Sorry there is no iApp for that....iCommonsense LOL.

elgruga
Jan 6, 2004, 06:59 PM
HEY!

I figure that having 3 Macs in the house costs me about $52 USD ($68 CAD) per month including cable, amortised over 4 years, with some residual for trade-ins. Thats replacing one machine every 18 months.
Plus software.

$49 USD ($64 CAD) for 5 great Apps?

And I love the new iPod because its so small. And beautiful.

Thats important to me. If its not important to you, then maybe Bill Gates has a deal for you........

I thought the show today was cool, and was a continuation of what is becoming a music revolution led by Apple.

I want Apple to make a profit because I know I would not be using a computer if they werent around.

JoeCanadian
Jan 6, 2004, 07:00 PM
The part of all this that bugs me is that I will have to buy iDVD and GarageBand in order to get a much needed update to iPhoto. I don't have a SuperDrive, nor am I a musician, so it seems stupid to charge me for something I don't use. I could do without iMovie as well since I don't have a video camera.

I understand the paying vs. free thing, I just don't want to pay for something I will never use! Apple! Let me buy iPhoto separately!!

fatfish
Jan 6, 2004, 07:01 PM
So I came to mac rumours and read the posts about the new ilife bundle, must say I got pretty depressed.

Anyhow decided to watch the broadcast and was soon joined by my mom and my kids.

Now mom, who has a PC but has never used it (it's for her grandchildren on the other side) has (after watching the broadcast) already ordered a digital camera and a DV camcorder over the net (the shops are now shut here in the UK or she would have gone out and bought them) and has asked me to order ilife for her.

What youv'e got to remember is she has a PC and doesn't know how to use it, but that's her next step. Already looking at the imacs and asking if I can guide her into using it, I've got to say I'm looking forward to it.

Can't say she's over intersested in garageband, but hey you never know.

Now my kids (10 & 13), who already use all the i apps on a daily basis are real eager for January 16, and garageband has brought about additional interest, infact my order is going to be for ilife4 and that keyboard Steve mentioned.

Got to say myself, I'm looking forward to the new imovie, iphoto and iDVD, garage band wasn't such a turn on for me, but after Steve's demo, I can see it being something to play with for a few months. (Hell I've just paid up to 10 times as much for toys for my boys which have only held their interest for a few days-garageband is pretty cheap even if we don't use it after February)

As for ipods, well each member of my family already have one of the models, but my boys are real interested in the new mini ipods. They don't see them as a replacement but as an alternative for different situations.

Me I'm into productivity for business reasons and this keynote didn't seem that great at first, but the rest of my family who just wanna enjoy themselves, think the integration is out of this world. (perhaps I have something to learn from them).

As an additional note, I wonder how this will benefit Apple. ie-- I make about 5 or 6 home movies a year for myself, but regularly produce 2 or 3 a week for PC friends (yes with imovie and iDVD). Who the hell is going to chuck up for a mac when they have a friend with one, and I can only see my position getting worse with garageband.

nuckinfutz
Jan 6, 2004, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
umm.... because it costs $130.:rolleyes:

Yawn

Microsoft Windows XP OEM (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?DEPA=6&sumit=Go&description=37%2D102%2D143&searchdepa=6)

$139 for and OEM(Must purchase hardware to get special price)

Anything else brainiac?

mullmann
Jan 6, 2004, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by jouster
Such ************ from Apple.

I really have no gripe with starting to charge, but surely it's not too much to ask that I get some kinda break if I'VE JUST SPENT $129 on the new OS?

Well, my software/OS upgrades are now tied to hardware upgrades. $129 + $49 + $99 (.mac) per year AND a hefty premium for hardware that IS NOT (G5 excepted, and only in certain circumstances) comparable to Wintel specs?

No thanks, Apple.

Since you've brought up the Wintel world, let's explore that. A reasonable parallel to OS X/Panther is Windows and Office. Do you expect to get Office for free with Windows? Do you expect to get Office upgrades for free in perpetuity if you buy it once? Last time I looked, in fact, a new copy of Windows XP costs substantially more than a new copy of OS X (at retail), and the same is true of Office versus iLife. The OS and the suite are, in both cases, tightly coupled to be sure -- but they simply are not the same thing. Having the former does not entitle you to the latter.

I agree that it is very hard to compete with free, and for that reason I too am disappointed that the gravy train seems to be ending. But I think we're still getting a pretty good deal.

Sabbath
Jan 6, 2004, 07:01 PM
So I only use Microsoft Word and have no use for Excel, PowerPoint or Entourage but I still have to buy the whole Office suite.


I dont want to make one of those snide replies, but just so you know, you can buy word (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/ukstore.woa/90301/wo/Ps40nshnGfX42gZWWhs10J9fwMI/2.4.0.5.10.11.0.13.0) alome (in the uk atleast). Not even MS would pull this kinda trick heheheh ;)

Torajima
Jan 6, 2004, 07:02 PM
Okay, so the new version of iLife is probably worth $49. But what's next?

Safari for $29?
Mail for $19?
Sherlock for $9.95?

Where do you draw the line?

When you spend several thousand dollars on a new computer, should you expect some functionality right out of the box?

And since Macs are billed as a "digital hub", shouldn't you expect the software that enables it to act as such be free?

And should users be expected to pay FULL PRICE to upgrade software they've already purchased?

If the software upgrade is basically a bug fix, shouldn't it be free?

Flowbee
Jan 6, 2004, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
No, nobody *has* to buy it. For people who use these apps frequently, and find them nice but very flawed, going from free to pay, without even an option to buy only the one you want, pretty much sucks.

Funny... I haven't seen that many posts around here about the iApps being so 'very flawed' before today. Seems like they work just fine for most people.

jouster
Jan 6, 2004, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by nuckinfutz
What about buying a $130 OS makes you feel so important? iLife is a different product I don't see why your purchase in one area should grant you a freebie in another.


Go to apple.com. Click on the OS X tab. Click on the features tab or whatever its called. Look at the list of features: along with QE and inkpad are....all the iLife 'apps'

Apple is misleading people by presenting them as part of its OS but charging for tem as an app.

I'm aware of what a classic bait and switch is; maybe you can try to understand my slight change of definition?

As for the bug fixes you disparage, take a stroll through Apple's own forums if you think the iPhoto etc are faultless.

elmimmo
Jan 6, 2004, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by bdkennedy1
So I only use Microsoft Word and have no use for Excel, PowerPoint or Entourage but I still have to buy the whole Office suite. Well, actually AFAIK no you do not. At least for Windows, not sure for Mac OS X, though. Anyhow, those were never free, so I do not know what this has to do with iLife.

elgruga
Jan 6, 2004, 07:04 PM
iPhoto isnt crap - its free and my kids love it and so do I.

Whats up with you guys getting so upset?

If you wanna be bleeding edge fastest machine best apps etc. I have news for you - it aint cheap.

And timing of computer purchase is something that should be ruled by your own budget and needs, NOT Apple's arbitrary announcements which are part of their business model.

They make the stuff, we choose when we want to buy.

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Yawn

Microsoft Windows XP OEM (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?DEPA=6&sumit=Go&description=37%2D102%2D143&searchdepa=6)

$139 for and OEM(Must purchase hardware to get special price)

Anything else brainiac?

I don't give a crap about Windows. Its crap, nothin to compare to. So thats what I got.......braniac.

beg_ne
Jan 6, 2004, 07:05 PM
Is this real news or more of Cnet's made up Apple news, like when they reported with complete confidence that Apple would provide no more security updates for Jag after Panther was released.

They make it sound all official with the "Jobs said." smashed in the middle, but that only applies to the part about iLife being $49 or free with new Macs.

razorme
Jan 6, 2004, 07:06 PM
Apple should allow us to download the new iPhoto for free because it would help showcase Apple's hardware and software for others. Right now, I show people my iBook, the excellent iTunes and how seemlessly the iPod works.

I wouldn't dare open iPhoto up because of how sluggish it is - it would make the computer look way underpowered. If Apple let us download the faster iPhoto, then perhaps I would be able to showcase it as well. This is what Apple needs to continue to grow and attract more users.

I suppose new computers will have this now, but it is unfortunate Apple didn't address the speed issue earlier and release it as an update.

nuckinfutz
Jan 6, 2004, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
I don't give a crap about Windows. Its crap, nothin to compare to. So thats what I got.......braniac.

ok...just wanted you to know your option. Seeing as how Windows is so cheeeep. ;)

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Flowbee
Funny... I haven't seen that many posts around here about the iApps being so 'very flawed' before today. Seems like they work just fine for most people.

I think people knew that they were flawed, but were expecting some kind of free update soon.

jocknerd
Jan 6, 2004, 07:07 PM
Lets see, I just paid $129 for Panther. Then I had to pay $99 for .mac to get the total "Panther experience". Now I find out that the applications on Panther are outdated and I need to pay $49 to get Panther up to date. So Panther really costs $280. Plus Apple will want me to do this again next year.

Sounds fair to me. I am an Apple groupie. I'll do whatever Stevie boy tells me. NOT.

Whats next? Charging for Safari next year? Don't laugh. I can see it happening.

Don't be surprised if iTunes becomes a purchased app as well in the future. They've got to make money off it somehow and its the only music store that the iPod supports.

Elektronkind
Jan 6, 2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
And since Macs are billed as a "digital hub", shouldn't you expect the software that enables it to act as such be free?

And should users be expected to pay FULL PRICE to upgrade software they've already purchased?

If the software upgrade is basically a bug fix, shouldn't it be free?

You get all the latest i apps when you buy a new Mac.

If you've owned a mac, it's not like iPhoto will now stop working.

As for Mail, Safari, et al... Those kinds of apps are expected to come with any commercial OS these days. DVD authoring and music production I can't say is a necessary standard gratis feature of any OS. We're lucky we got this far without having to pay for iPhoto and company.

One thing to remember that above all, no company is a charity, or a charity for long.

/ek

hayesk
Jan 6, 2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by ICEBERG
For Canadian customers it is. I like iPhoto but don't need the other programs. So for me to dish out close to $100 buck CND for one program is too much when i could have had it free just this morning.:rolleyes:

Dude, it's $59 Canadian. Did you even check the Apple store? You can still download the old versions for free. Apple took nothing away from you.

nuckinfutz
Jan 6, 2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by razorme
Apple should allow us to download the new iPhoto for free because it would help showcase Apple's hardware and software for others. Right now, I show people my iBook, the excellent iTunes and how seemlessly the iPod works.

I wouldn't dare open iPhoto up because of how sluggish it is - it would make the computer look way underpowered. If Apple let us download the faster iPhoto, then perhaps I would be able to showcase it as well. This is what Apple needs to continue to grow and attract more users.

I suppose new computers will have this now, but it is unfortunate Apple didn't address the speed issue earlier and release it as an update.


Aren't you putting the cart before the horse here. iLife isn't due until Jan 16th. Who's to say there won't be an update that at lease speeds iPhoto up a bit. What you're seeing here is the typical hysteria that accompanies every Tradeshow by mac fans with expectation that are too high.

elgruga
Jan 6, 2004, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by jouster
Go to apple.com. Click on the OS X tab. Click on the features tab or whatever its called. Look at the list of features: along with QE and inkpad are....all the iLife 'apps'

Apple is misleading people by presenting them as part of its OS but charging for them as an app.



WRONG. Apple gives the iApps free as a package when you buy a computer.

And its a normal business practice to allow customers some free stuff to get sales moving at the beginning.

2 years of free stuff - and some stuff is still free, and there may be upgrades for some of the apps anyway - no-one knows yet.

I bet all you complainers hate Christmas too, doncha?

Flowbee
Jan 6, 2004, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
When you spend several thousand dollars on a new computer, should you expect some functionality right out of the box?

iLife comes FREE on all new Macs.


And since Macs are billed as a "digital hub", shouldn't you expect the software that enables it to act as such be free?

See above.

jouster
Jan 6, 2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Yawn

Microsoft Windows XP OEM (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?DEPA=6&sumit=Go&description=37%2D102%2D143&searchdepa=6)

$139 for and OEM(Must purchase hardware to get special price)

Anything else brainiac?

What in God's name does Window's OEM price have to do with it?:rolleyes:

snahabed
Jan 6, 2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
When you spend several thousand dollars on a new computer, should you expect some functionality right out of the box?

And since Macs are billed as a "digital hub", shouldn't you expect the software that enables it to act as such be free?


Um. It comes free with all new Macs. "right out of the box"...

When you bought your older Mac, you got older versions of iLife for free. Are you asking for free upgrades to a free program?

Like the people who would buy a $199 but complain about a $249 iPod mini, I have to wonder why 50 bucks is such a big deal. This is the BMW of the computing world. Not the Kia.

iLife is WELL worth the price. And if you don't like it, that's great... you can use the previous versions. If you don't like the previous versions, you can use 3rd party software whose upgrade pricing policies might be more in line with what you expect.

Just stop the bloody whining.

Elektronkind
Jan 6, 2004, 07:13 PM
Dear Everyone Who Feels Slighted and that they're entitled to anything and everything;

Please refer to my post at the top of page 7 of this thread.

Thanks;
/ek

Flowbee
Jan 6, 2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by latergator116
I think people knew that they were flawed, but were expecting some kind of free update soon.

Oh, right. People knew they were flawed, but were keeping quiet about it.

*That* sounds a *lot* like MacRumors...:rolleyes:

Ling
Jan 6, 2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by jocknerd
Don't be surprised if iTunes becomes a purchased app as well in the future. They've got to make money off it somehow and its the only music store that the iPod supports.

Ahem...iPod?

Torajima
Jan 6, 2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Flowbee
Funny... I haven't seen that many posts around here about the iApps being so 'very flawed' before today. Seems like they work just fine for most people.

iMovie forums can be found here. Try doing a search for "audio" or "synch"

http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?14@@.ee6bcd9

iDVD forums here. Almost every post about failed burns.

http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?14@@.eebeb28

elgruga
Jan 6, 2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by jocknerd
Lets see, I just paid $129 for Panther. Then I had to pay $99 for .mac to get the total "Panther experience". Now I find out that the applications on Panther are outdated and I need to pay $49 to get Panther up to date. So Panther really costs $280. Plus Apple will want me to do this again next year.



You HAD to pay $99 for .mac?
Apple will WANT you to do this again next year?

Listen carefully, close your eyes, relax your mind - I want you to go your bank and withdraw ALL of your money and send it to me, El Gruga Finyano, at RR5, S7, C18, Booneyville, BC, Canada, V7J 3J9.

You HAVE to send me all your money.
You MUST send me all your money.

No Offense , man. But really, no-one is forcing you.

You are feeling sleepy........

Trekkie
Jan 6, 2004, 07:15 PM
I bought it.

For $49 for what you get, it's a dang god deal. Try and find those applications on a PC and you'd pay a fortune.

Personally I find it to be a good deal for what it comes with. But then I use iDVD, iMovie and iPhoto daily.

If it'll make them develop more things like maybe a RAW Plugin for iPhoto I'll take it.

jocknerd
Jan 6, 2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by the silver fox

Somewhere down the line Apple has to charge us for developing these products given their small market share. The OS as has been mentioned always includes the iLife suite. If you really cant afford $49 for software then cut down on beer/books/music/cinema/coffees for a few weeks.

I thought the cost of the hardware was justification for the free apps.

Torajima
Jan 6, 2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Flowbee
iLife comes FREE on all new Macs.

See above.

And the version that came free on my Mac is broken. Why should I have to pay for Apple to fix it?

ipoddin
Jan 6, 2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by qgrayson
...but that's for those who buy systems...not the iLife software package.

- Some of us purchased the first iLife package in order to get the latest version of iDVD. That was last year. Now...if we want to upgrade THOSE apps we have to pay another 50 bucks.

-

And therein lies one of the biggest problems. I have no issue paying for the software. However for those who shelled out $50 last year, there should be an upgrade price. Those who bought Final Cut Express last year for $299 only have to pay $99 to upgrade to 2.0. Just about every other software has a special upgrade price for those who bought the previous version (Adobe for example).

So why doesn't Apple offer an upgrade price to those who bought it last year? We're paying full price for upgrades - that's a problem imo. Yes, it's easy to say, "don't buy it then, your current apps work" However that still doesn't make it right for apple to charge full price for upgraded software (if in fact this story is true)

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Flowbee
Oh, right. People knew they were flawed, but were keeping quiet about it.

*That* sounds a *lot* like MacRumors...:rolleyes:

Im not trying to say iLife is flawed. All I am saying is that iPhoto and iMovie have some serious issues and I have heard many complaints on Macrumors about these issues...

fatfish
Jan 6, 2004, 07:19 PM
When you spend several thousand dollars on a new computer, should you expect some functionality right out of the box?

---------------------------------------------------

Yeah, that's what you get, if you buy a new mac now (or in 10 days time) you'll get every thing you want. BUT you'll have to upgrade it in the future if you wanna keep up to date.

Now with M$, you get the box and have to buy the software on top, OK so sometimes (no many times) it's bundled, but let's face it one way or another it's built into the price.

i life is a better deal than office, and yeah I know they serve different purposes, but you've only gotta look at the price tag $49 is nothing.

SWC
Jan 6, 2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
Okay, so the new version of iLife is probably worth $49. But what's next?

Safari for $29?
Mail for $19?
Sherlock for $9.95?

Where do you draw the line?

When you spend several thousand dollars on a new computer, should you expect some functionality right out of the box?

And since Macs are billed as a "digital hub", shouldn't you expect the software that enables it to act as such be free?

And should users be expected to pay FULL PRICE to upgrade software they've already purchased?

If the software upgrade is basically a bug fix, shouldn't it be free?

All of this is included for free with a mac. It was included when you purchased your mac as is all new macs purchased today. and just like everything else upgrades arent free forever.

elgruga
Jan 6, 2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by jocknerd
I thought the cost of the hardware was justification for the free apps.

Look, the hardware is NOT more expensive than PC's with the SAME features.

If cost is an issue, then I do sympathise, because Apple stuff aint cheap.

But it is good.

Maybe I'm a fool, but I do know how bad the Windows world is. have you been there lately?

Sorry if I offended with my 'send me the money' post. I sometimes get a bit excited about macs.....

Flowbee
Jan 6, 2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
iMovie forums can be found here. Try doing a search for "audio" or "synch"

http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?14@@.ee6bcd9

iDVD forums here. Almost every post about failed burns.

http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?14@@.eebeb28

Thanks. I'm well aware of the Apple support forums. Still seems like a very small number of people experiencing serious problems overall. The iApps work just fine for most people.

ipoddin
Jan 6, 2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by SWC
All of this is included for free with a mac. It was included when you purchased your mac as is all new macs purchased today. and just like everything else upgrades arent free forever.

But should upgrades cost full price for previous owners?

billyboy
Jan 6, 2004, 07:23 PM
The whole point of the 4 iLife apps - those crappy apps that you have the 100% choice to buy or pass on - are integrated - it's a package deal.

When did anyone go to the car showroom and say, "Only I use the car so I dont want to pay for a passenger side sun visor. It never rains in Arizona so lose the roof please. Oh and while you're at it, I havent got any friends and never give people lifts, I never explore anywhere or show other people what my car can do, so rip all the passenger seats out and knock them off the price too.

Although reading some posts, I guess its possible there are people with that attitude out there.

jouster
Jan 6, 2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by elgruga
WRONG. Apple gives the iApps free as a package when you buy a computer.


WRONG. It is specifically listed at the website as an OS feature.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/overview/

Read the side bar list on the right. What, is Java gonna be a paid app soon? Or Darwin? Or networking?

Hey, according to Apple, all of those, plus a lot more, are features.

Sure am looking forward to paying $49 for Darwin or Java. By your argument, they're apps, given away when you buy the OS!

LethalWolfe
Jan 6, 2004, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
Okay, so the new version of iLife is probably worth $49. But what's next?

Safari for $29?
Mail for $19?
Sherlock for $9.95?

Where do you draw the line?

When you spend several thousand dollars on a new computer, should you expect some functionality right out of the box?

And since Macs are billed as a "digital hub", shouldn't you expect the software that enables it to act as such be free?

And should users be expected to pay FULL PRICE to upgrade software they've already purchased?

If the software upgrade is basically a bug fix, shouldn't it be free?


If I bought a new Mac tomorrow what functionality would I not get out of the box? iLife still comes w/new Macs. What you don't get is free full version upgrades for life. And I can't believe you are implying that all the new iApp features are just "bug fixes."

I think the internet boom spoiled a lot of people and made them expect to get things for free forever. If I buy a TV, a car or a DVD I don't expect to get discounted or free "upgrade" once my model is no longer top of the line. If you buy the Return of the King DVD in August will you take it back in Nov and expect to exchange it for the Special Edition?

And, like others have said, you don't have to buy the upgrade the current versions you have will still continue to work even though new ones are out. Hell, I'm running 10.1.5 over here. I'd like to get Panther but I can't afford the upgrade (and I'll be surprised if I can even run all the upgraded iLife apps). But you don't see me complaining. I bought iLife last year just to get iDVD and it was well worth $50. I don't use iPhoto hardly at all and I have no need for iMovie.

It's not like they are charging $100 or $150 for iLife. There's no price gouging<sp?> going on here. $50 is a good deal for iMovie, iDVD, Garage Band, and iPhoto (mabye) alone let alone $50 for all of them. Just go price similar PC products. I don't understand why people expect to get free hand outs for life. If you just bought a Mac or Panther, yeah the timing sux. But get over it. I bought a PDA last year and a few weeks later a new version came out and mine dropped in price by like $150. I swore a couple of times but what are you gonna do? That's life especially in the realm of computers and electronics.

I think Apple has spolied us w/all the good, inexpensive/free software they put out. I have no problem paying a nominal fee for the best consumer apps in their class (on any platform).


Lethal

titaniumducky
Jan 6, 2004, 07:25 PM
You guys know that most computers bought within the last year or two qualify for iLife Up-to-Date, right?

It's only $19.95! Come on! New iMovie, iPhoto, and iDVD plus GarageBand for $19.95!

Plus, you can copy it from one computer to another (from CD or from new Mac), or borrow someone else's CD.

NOTE: THIS IS BREAKING THE EULA AND IS THEREFORE ILLEGAL.

Torajima
Jan 6, 2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by ipoddin
Those who bought Final Cut Express last year for $299 only have to pay $99 to upgrade to 2.0.

Actually, I'm irritated by this as well. I bought Final Cut Express for $99 only three months ago, and now I've got to pay an additional $99 to upgrade it? Ridiculous...

Why don't consumers have any rights as far as software is concerned?

Software upgrades should be free for the first 12 months after purchase.

Software upgrades should be reasonably priced (10-20% of the orignal price, at most).

Bug fixes and Patches should ALWAYS be free.

Flowbee
Jan 6, 2004, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
And the version that came free on my Mac is broken. Why should I have to pay for Apple to fix it?

The iApps are not broken. They *do* have some limitations. All software does. Just because Apple adds or improves a feature, doesn't mean the previous version is "broken".

I wish the complainers around here would spend as much time complaining about *serious* problems in the world. Air pollution, political corruption, health care, etc.

Flowbee
Jan 6, 2004, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
Software upgrades should be free for the first 12 months after purchase pricie.

Software upgrades should be reasonably priced (10-20% of the orignal price, at most).

Bug fixes and Patches should ALWAYS be free.

Well, when *you're* the CEO of a software company, I'll look forward to those policies.

On second thought, I won't hold my breath...

fatfish
Jan 6, 2004, 07:34 PM
God your a sad bunch (well some of you), next week this forum wil be quiet cos' you'll of all paid 49 bucks and be happily discovering the many new features features of ilife, only to complain the week after when your new software does'nt work well. because you can't be bothered to maintain your system properly.

macdong
Jan 6, 2004, 07:34 PM
i was gonna point that out.
iMovie and iPhoto were advertised as "part" of Panther.
And since I paid for Panther, shouldn't I get the proper update for it?
I can understand about iDVD, but iMovie and iPhoto?
i don't care whether the price is right or not, it just doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by jouster
WRONG. It is specifically listed at the website as an OS feature.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/overview/

Read the side bar list on the right. What, is Java gonna be a paid app soon? Or Darwin? Or networking?

Hey, according to Apple, all of those, plus a lot more, are features.

Sure am looking forward to paying $49 for Darwin or Java. Hey, they're apps, given away when you buy the OS!

jocknerd
Jan 6, 2004, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Ling
Ahem...iPod?

Yes, iPod. The iTMS is the only store you can download music from and play on your iPod.

Don't be surprised if Apple starts charging for newer versions of iTunes in order to pay for the store.

patmcfar8
Jan 6, 2004, 07:36 PM
$50 is well worth it! All of the whiny, crying types here just make me sick.

I'll be ordering mine tomorrow. Thanks Apple for great software.

hayesk
Jan 6, 2004, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Torajima
Why don't consumers have any rights as far as software is concerned?

Software upgrades should be free for the first 12 months after purchase.

Software upgrades should be reasonably priced (10-20% of the orignal price, at most).

Give me a break. Software should cost what it costs developers to make it, plus profit to run the business and invest in future versions.

orangedv
Jan 6, 2004, 07:37 PM
This thread reminds me a lot of the dot Mac one when that broke cover. I was right royally pissed at losing my mac email address but Apple stuck to their guns and I stuck to mine. They never did get any cash out of me. I am over it now. Apple are relatively speaking a teeny company, far smaller than their reputation would suggest. These guys produce some great great software but they don't have a lot of financial breathing space. Their policy is that on the whole, upgrades will be bought and paid for as new products. No 'hey you can get this for 5 bucks if you bought the older one last month'.

We swallowed this pill with dot mac, and I am ok with it now. Having just spent the weekend going through yet another windows session with a close relative because the damn system wont work, I am very grateful Apple are out there. If you are a casual Mac user, you probably wont know that the updates are out there, or for that matter, macrumors.com. The guys who love it should have taken on board how the company plays the game by now and accept it, or go to the dark side. I spend far too much of my spare time hearing people run my Mac into the ground about an hour before they plead with me to fix their damn PC because it has died again. We need to keep that in mind. These apps are not made by tooth fairies, they are made by guys who have families to support, just like the rest of us.

Make do with what you have, like I do, or pay for the new version, or go with XP. Thatís the choice....

hayesk
Jan 6, 2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
"Free iLife" on all "new" macs is the bait for the switch.. for those of us that already purchased hardware (and the OS update) this is more money out of our pockets, should we choose to upgrade.

Does anyone here know the meaning of bait and switch, because that isn't it.

Bait and Switch means they advertise something and don't deliver it, instead coercing you to buy a different more expensive product.

Apple never promised lifetime iApp upgrades. They didn't bait anyone with something they didn't intend to sell. And they didn't attempt to coerce buyers into buying something else.

scottkleinberg
Jan 6, 2004, 07:45 PM
Has anyone considered that maybe the downloads will be free for .mac users?

greenstork
Jan 6, 2004, 07:45 PM
Man, Apple has got to be the only company I know of that can take software applications that were once free and start charging for them and then proceed to have minions of loyal mac users defend them for doing so.

They do have a unique and loyal customer base, no doubt.

blueBomber
Jan 6, 2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by hayesk
Does anyone here know the meaning of bait and switch, because that isn't it.

Bait and Switch means they advertise something and don't deliver it, instead coercing you to buy a different more expensive product.

Apple never promised lifetime iApp upgrades. They didn't bait anyone with something they didn't intend to sell. And they didn't attempt to coerce buyers into buying something else.

And on top of this, you still have the older versions to use. Apple delivered as promised, leave them alone.

jouster
Jan 6, 2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by hayesk
Does anyone here know the meaning of bait and switch, because that isn't it.

Bait and Switch means they advertise something and don't deliver it, instead coercing you to buy a different more expensive product.


Like say, advertising them as part of the $129 OS here (http://www.apple.com/macosx/overview/) then deciding that they're standalone apps, needing to be paid for, after all?

hmmmmm.....sounds like a bait and switch to me.

greenstork
Jan 6, 2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by jouster
Like say, advertising them as part of the $129 OS here (http://www.apple.com/macosx/overview/) then deciding that they're standalone apps, needing to be paid for, after all?

hmmmmm.....sounds like a bait and switch to me.

I'm sorry, they didn't promise you all future upgrades for free, is says that NOWHERE.

Zech Marquis
Jan 6, 2004, 07:47 PM
especially Garage Band, that was the show stopper today by far. I am in the market for a new mac, most likely an iBook G4, so I can still use my current ruby iMac with the older iPhoto. Some people just want everything for free--that's not the real world guys.

Nicky G
Jan 6, 2004, 07:47 PM
*edited*

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 07:50 PM
Read next time.. I posted a response to the post I quoted.. it was about the switchers campaign and wintel to mac switcher.. I then said that the iapps were part of the bait FOR THE SWITCH, not "bait and switch"..

lousy apple apologizers.. :mad:


Originally posted by hayesk
Does anyone here know the meaning of bait and switch, because that isn't it.

Bait and Switch means they advertise something and don't deliver it, instead coercing you to buy a different more expensive product.

Apple never promised lifetime iApp upgrades. They didn't bait anyone with something they didn't intend to sell. And they didn't attempt to coerce buyers into buying something else.

sosumi99
Jan 6, 2004, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by orangedv
This thread reminds me a lot of the dot Mac one when that broke cover. I was right royally pissed at losing my mac email address but Apple stuck to their guns and I stuck to mine. They never did get any cash out of me. I am over it now.

...

These apps are not made by tooth fairies, they are made by guys who have families to support, just like the rest of us.

Make do with what you have, like I do, or pay for the new version, or go with XP. Thatís the choice....

Of all the comments criticizing the "whiners," yours is the most reasonable.

Both sides (Apple's and ours) are reasonable. We will all eventually get over it.

The people who simply don't see what the "whiners" are complaining about seem to me close-minded and much too impatient. At least the "whiners" recognize that there is room for disagreement over what is reasonable for people to expect. No one is suggesting upgrades for free for life -- everyone is qualifying their complaints by suggesting alternatives that would give Apple money while still making them happy (unbundle the apps, state definitively the period of time for free upgrades, don't advertise new iApps as part of Panther, etc.).

The people who summarily dismiss the "whiners" remind me of that picture of the crying baby. How dare we criticize Apple in any way! Go away to Linux! Don't play here any more! Wahhhh! Wahhhhh!

Torajima
Jan 6, 2004, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by hayesk
Give me a break. Software should cost what it costs developers to make it, plus profit to run the business and invest in future versions.

So, you think it's okay that consumers have absolutely no rights as far as software is concerned?

Generally:
You can't return software, even when it doesn't work properly.
You can't try it before you buy it.
You are forced to agree to whatever ridiculous user agreement they want to force upon you. Better agree to it, as it's too late to take the software back...
You are forced to upgrade, as often and at whatever price the companies arbitrarily set.
If you miss a single upgrade, you are often forced to repurchase the software at full price.
You must purchase multiple copies for both your desktop and laptop machine.
You must suffer thru painful copy protection schemes, even though they don't actully deter real pirates.

I could go on...

Sedulous
Jan 6, 2004, 07:53 PM
What was once a nice thing about owning a mac... having good tools built in to the OS. No more I guess. Bah.

latergator116
Jan 6, 2004, 07:54 PM
I couldn't have said it better.;)

SWC
Jan 6, 2004, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by jouster
Like say, advertising them as part of the $129 OS here (http://www.apple.com/macosx/overview/) then deciding that they're standalone apps, needing to be paid for, after all?

hmmmmm.....sounds like a bait and switch to me.

Where did apple every say they were no longer going to bundle the apps with panther? im sure new discs will come with the new version. the new imovie was anounced 3 moths ago so you got what was avalable when you purchased panther.

qgrayson
Jan 6, 2004, 07:55 PM
- I just joined this board...but I'm now regretting that decision. I expected to see 'adult' debate and opinion here and instead it looks like many just want to insult those with differing opinions.

- What's the deal here? Can't we 'agree to disagree?' Isn't that what 'thinking differently' is all about?

jouster
Jan 6, 2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by greenstork
I'm sorry, they didn't promise you all future upgrades for free, is says that NOWHERE.

greenstork, I realize that. As I've said repeatedly, it is the timing I object to, and the implication (in my link) that the iApps are part of the OS, and will be, at the very least, upgraded with the OS.

$129 for Panther
$100 for .mac
$29 for iChat AV
$49 for the iApps
$99 for FCE update

It's getting ridiulous.

-----------------------

Yes I can afford them. Yes, I do realize I don't have to buy them.

gMac
Jan 6, 2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by ipoddin
So why doesn't Apple offer an upgrade price to those who bought it last year? We're paying full price for upgrades - that's a problem imo. Yes, it's easy to say, "don't buy it then, your current apps work" However that still doesn't make it right for apple to charge full price for upgraded software (if in fact this story is true)

That is exactly how I feel. I don't mind paying for new apps or even for significant upgrades to existing apps after a reasonable amount of time. Charging another full $50 for a suite of apps less than a year old is not ethical IMHO. YES, I know no one is forcing me to make a purchase (and at this point I have no intention of doing so) but I feel I have an obligation (and KNOW I have the right) to make my opinions known.

I think a reasonable thing for Apple to do would be to offer the new iLife suite as a lower cost upgrade to those who purchased the original iLife. I also feel that since the original iLife had no GarageBand app it would be fair to exclude this component of iLife from the upgrade.

As things stand now, I won't be purchasing iLife and will be far less likely to rush out and purchase the next "insanely great" app from Apple in the future (maybe I'll just wait a little longer...they'll just upgrade it in a few months anyway.)

Come on Steve, no wine? No candles? :)

rdowns
Jan 6, 2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by qgrayson
- It's more than a matter of 'free' applications suddenly becoming 'commercial'. Many of us bought the previous iLife package and feel that 50 bucks was thrown away.

- Apple should have at least offered an 'upgrade' price for those who invested in their first iLife package.

- It's too bad Apple is keeping users from downloading upgrades for iPhoto and iMovie since both have suffered from performance problems since the LAST upgrade.

Firstly, we don't know if free downloads (iMovie and iPhoto) will be available or not.

Not directed at you, more a general comment here...

Secondly, 50 bucks for 4 applications is dirt cheap. That's like shareware prices. One app is brand new. Even if you don't want/need all the apps, the price is cheap. Where does this sense of entitlement that permeates this thread come from? (see also Mini Pod thread)

Being a Mac owner is more expensive than owning alternatives. Deal with it, I have for 17 years. It's a choice.

nathanziarek
Jan 6, 2004, 07:58 PM
OK...I can see being a little upset about this, but...

- No one is saying that OS.4 won't come with the latest version of iLife. Apple has indeed made it seem (the OSX page especially) that these programs are part of the overall Apple Out-of-the-box experience. I don't think they would change course on that. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that on the 16th all Panther discs have iLife '04 on them.
- Only cNet has reported that the iApps will not be available seperately. Guess all we want, we won't know until the 16th.

Nate

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 07:59 PM
So can I return my $129 copy of panther, get a refund, then buy the "new version" of panther with the appropriate iapps?

Where does it say that boxed versions of Panther will have the updated apps? All I heard was "new macs"..

you don't get AppleWorks with panther, but you do with a new ibook..

Think people.. these are not getting in the box, only with the new computer..

Originally posted by SWC
Where did apple every say they were no longer going to bundle the apps with panther? im sure new discs will come with the new version. the new imovie was anounced 3 moths ago so you got what was avalable when you purchased panther. :rolleyes:

hayesk
Jan 6, 2004, 08:00 PM
So many cheapskates. Here's the bottom line:

Apple gave away iApps once. They are not under any obligation to provide free upgrades at all.

iPhoto is usable - it gets slow, but speed isn't a bug. There's no justification for expecting a free speedup.
iDVD works. Before anyone quotes the Apple Discussion forums, think of all the people that don't post there. How many times would you post something that says "Hey, iDVD works for me."
iMovie works too. A few people have problems with every application.

If you don't find the current apps usable then don't use them and pretend they don't exist. You aren't out any money. There - problem solved.

Are they all bug free? No - no software is, but no software company in the world will fix every last bug for free - they can't afford to. Apple's iApps are usable and worth far more than what you paid for them.

For those that received iApps with Panther. So what? You could download those apps anyway. Panther didn't bring anything you didn't have already. So to say that you paid for the iApps by purchasing Panther is an invalid argument.

Finally, those that just bought a new Mac and want an upgrade price for iLife - $49 is the upgrade price. Everyone got iLife when they bought their Mac - they all pay the $49 upgrade price.

Just like OS upgrades. People whine every year having to pay full price for MacOS X. No you don't - $129 the upgrade price - everyone got an OS with their Mac so they are all upgrading.

Bottom line - with iLife, everyone got what they paid for, and then some. If you don't want the upgrade, then don't buy it. Apple doesn't owe you anything.

Torajima
Jan 6, 2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Nicky G
ē $50 (make that $49) says that most of the complainers in this thread are under 21 years old, and spend more money on alcohol and pot every month than iLife.

ē Software is one of those things in life you purchase "as is."

I suspect I've been using Apples since most of you were in diapers (l learned to program on an Apple II). I complain because I see the future that Apple (and the rest of the industry) is heading toward, and it's not a pretty sight.

It's not about the money.. I can afford $49 and think the 2 hour record time in iDVD alone is worth the purchase price. It's about principle... but many of you can't seem to understand this...

But before I quit, let me say this: Why is it okay that software is purchased "as is"?

TheFish
Jan 6, 2004, 08:02 PM
THIS HAS OUTRAGED ME TO NO END! APPLE HAS LOST A CUSTOMER!!!... ehh im just kidding, i have to say though, i liked it better when these apps were free but the 49$ is a great deal, in my opinion from the looks of it garage band is worth the 49$ alone, same with iDvd the whole iLife package should be much more expensive on the value you're getting for the money, i suppose what we used before was just the free sample, although imovie 3 was kind of a step backwards.

ipoddin
Jan 6, 2004, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
So can I return my $129 copy of panther, get a refund, then buy the "new version" of panther with the appropriate iapps?

Where does it say that boxed versions of Panther will have the updated apps? All I heard was "new macs"..

you don't get AppleWorks with panther, but you do with a new ibook..

Think people.. these are not getting in the box, only with the new computer..

:rolleyes:

Good points.

I've been considering upgrading to Panther...but if iLife 04 comes with Panther after the 16th, I'd be pissed off shelling out $49 now for iLife.

But then again, all those people who already upgraded to Panther would be pretty pissed off if iLife 04 now comes in the box with versions shipping after the 16th and they're not offered a free upgrade.

Since iLife 04 is not part of the OS, it won't come with Panther, just new Macs.

manitoubalck
Jan 6, 2004, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by edesignuk
[B]If they think I'm paying $49 for an iPhoto update (which is all I'd want), they've got another thing coming...
B]

He's an idea;).

Someone with a new mac that comes with the package, compress it and post it on your homepage under some bogas name for all to freely download. Any takers? If apple are out to screw it's customers, then fight fire with fire.

greenstork
Jan 6, 2004, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by jouster
greenstork, I realize that. As I've said repeatedly, it is the timing I object to, and the implication (in my link) that the iApps are part of the OS, and will be, at the very least, upgraded with the OS.

$129 for Panther
$100 for .mac
$29 for iChat AV
$49 for the iApps
$99 for FCE update

It's getting ridiulous.

-----------------------

Yes I can afford them. Yes, I do realize I don't have to buy them.

There's no reason to believe *yet* that the iApps won't continue to be bundled with the OS. If I remember correctly, iApp upgrades came with Panther.

That said, I couldn't agree with you more, Apple is using its brand loyalty to create new revenue streams and I object to this distinct change in policy regarding their iApps. Previously, a benefit, luxury if you will, of owning a Mac, was receiving some free software upgrades. This benefit is slowly dwindling.

I don't feel cheated or robbed or even mad at Apple, but it disappointing.

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 08:05 PM
shout it from the rooftops brother!! it's like AppleWorks.. it's like Bugdom.. it's like World Books.. it comes with the computer, not with the buck twenty nine OS, like it used it..

Repeat that to everyone you know..

Originally posted by ipoddin
Good points.

I've been considering upgrading to Panther...but if iLife 04 comes with Panther after the 16th, I'd be pissed off shelling out $49 now for iLife.

But then again, all those people who already upgraded to Panther would be pretty pissed off if iLife 04 now comes in the box with versions shipping after the 16th and they're not offered a free upgrade.

Since iLife 04 is not part of the OS, it won't come with Panther, just new Macs.

autrefois
Jan 6, 2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Sabbath
I dont want to make one of those snide replies, but just so you know, you can buy word (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/ukstore.woa/90301/wo/Ps40nshnGfX42gZWWhs10J9fwMI/2.4.0.5.10.11.0.13.0) alome (in the uk atleast). Not even MS would pull this kinda trick heheheh ;)

I think that was the point of the original post. Since Apple is saying iLife is like Office for your digital hub, then you should be able to buy iLife's components separately as well, just like you do for Office.

[I'm not taking sides on the issue either way, but several people have commented on the post and I just wanted to offer my interpretation.]

rdowns
Jan 6, 2004, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by iJed
The worst thing about being a Mac user is the Apple appologists who will go to any length to say that what Apple is doing is the right thing to do. If Apple started selling some of these people a block of plastic with no function at all for $5000 most of them would say that it was the greatest, coolest and most amazing block of plastic ever made and that the price was perfectly reasonable.



Sure, there are Apple apologists out there who say Apple can do no wrong. One could argue about this sense of entitlement people have today. I prefer the latter.

Being a Mac owner is expensive compared to a PC owner (that could be argued the other way for an "apples-to-apples" comparison)

What other PC mfg. provides free software (initially) and then updates it twice for free before charging a nominal fee for it?

Sure, I'd like top see Apple offer cheap upgrades on an individual application basis but they don't. I'd like to see them offer tiered .Mac membership with iLife apps, OS updates and other perks at different rates, but they don't. Even if you only want one app updated, $49 is a fair price. Don't like it, go elsewhere.

I certainly understand people's unhappiness at the price but the sense of entitlement echoed throughout this thread and others really irks me.

QCassidy352
Jan 6, 2004, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
90% of all Freeware becomes payware.
Why would someone give it away if it no long benifits him or her?

Apple either should charge for it or end the iLife completely.

If you think you pay too much for a Mac and the OS then why did you even buy a Mac in the first place?

The fact that freeware often becomes payware means that we should be happy about it happening in this instance?

No, apple should continue to "give it away" because it isn't really free and never was. They have always charged for it, and we have always paid for it, indirectly, through overpriced hardware and OS updates. What apple gets (and has always gotten) out of it is a hook to get people to buy computer systems. The problem is, now apple is charging for it directly but not lowering the price of those other things (hardware and OS) that used to indirectly fund iapps. Essentially, we're being charged twice.

I bought a Mac because I prefer it to anything else out there. But everyone has a limit. I wouldn't pay $3000 for an ibook given the PC alternatives out there, and neither would most people. Now, I'm not saying this will make me leave apple; it's not that severe.
But the next time I buy a new system, I will definitely think about how much upgrades are going to cost me in the future. When that cost is $0, that's a plus. A point in Apple's favor, if you will. Well, that's a point that Apple lost today. In my book, they're still way ahead of the other options. But it's a definite step in the wrong direction.

Originally posted by mullmann While it is appropriate to have high-standards for products we want to endorse, and unfortunate that Apple failed to meet yours, you've paid nothing for that so-called crap software. If it weren't doing what I wanted, I would agree that it would be nice to get it that way without further cost -- except that it has cost you nothing whatsoever to this point. If you're trying to make the case that you've been ripped off, it doesn't seem makeable.

It HAS cost me to this point. When I paid for a powerbook in September, and when I paid for Panther in October, I was paying for iapps. This is what I was saying above. The iapps were never free. We have always payed for them - it's just that the cost was built in to other things, like hardware. But now, the hardware costs just as much *and* the iapps cost separately. If apple lowered the costs on other things, because they decided that the iapps should support themselves, that would be one thing. That's not the case here.

mullmann
Jan 6, 2004, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by ipoddin
But should upgrades cost full price for previous owners?

An interesting question, and I would say "no" if only the full price weren't relatively low as it is. What would you consider a reasonable upgrade price? $29? Apple already charges $19.95 shipping to get iLife "free" as part of their up-to-date program (the one charge where I will stand up and say we're being gouged -- $19.95 to ship a small box? come on!). So you would effectively be getting the upgrade to all four apps for about $10, which seems unreasonably (to Apple) low, or you'd pay their shipping cost on top of the base price, in which case you'd be paying... $49.

A tangential question is whether you would have been willing to pay more for iLife initially if you knew that upgrades would be cheaper. For example, would you have paid $99 for it initially, knowing that updates would only cost $29 thereafter? Imagine the outcry on this forum if Jobs had announced *that* pricing today. In the end, I rather think that what they've done -- offering everything at one fairly modest price for everyone, new or existing customer -- is probably the best approach.

Sedulous
Jan 6, 2004, 08:08 PM
Ok. So what happens if I take my Panther discs and clean reinstall... can I still update the iApps? I don't see any place I can get updates.

Awimoway
Jan 6, 2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by elgruga
You HAD to pay $99 for .mac?
Apple will WANT you to do this again next year?

Listen carefully, close your eyes, relax your mind - I want you to go your bank and withdraw ALL of your money and send it to me, El Gruga Finyano, at RR5, S7, C18, Booneyville, BC, Canada, V7J 3J9.

You HAVE to send me all your money.
You MUST send me all your money.

No Offense , man. But really, no-one is forcing you.

You are feeling sleepy........

I don't get why the rich have to be so condescending. :rolleyes:

Of course no one must buy all of these. If one values staying up to date, however, one must pay $300 per year. For regular working stiffs, that's a helluva a lot of bread.

There is no fundamental law of nature that says you can't complain--even if you are voluntarily doing something. If it makes you hurt more than you like, I say complain. I think $300 is a damn steep annual subscription fee. Will I pay it? Yes. Do I like that it costs so much? No. Is that so evil? Is moral ambiguity beyond your grasp? I don't know. Is it?

Doctor Q
Jan 6, 2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by jouster
$129 for Panther
$100 for .mac
$29 for iChat AV
$49 for the iApps
$99 for FCE update

It's getting ridiulous.Buying "a la carte" like this may seem like Apple is "nickel and diming" us, but the flip side is that people complain "I had to pay full price for Panther and I only wanted a third of the features!"

Ending the free iPhoto and iMovie updates would be disappointing, but I know Apple decides what to bundle and what not to bundle to optimize its for-profit business. It would not be "bait and switch", but it would be "switch" (a change of policy), such as if we all had to start paying a few cents for each e-mail to keep spammers from sending millions of them every day. We can see the reason, we know we are getting something of value, but we hate to have to start paying for something we didn't previously have to pay for. That's understandable. And we'll live through it.

iJonathan
Jan 6, 2004, 08:12 PM
£39 is the price of a console game!! Please get some perspective.

Apple write some of the best software in the world and half you expect it free!! Besides its all free with a new mac and the old versions don't stop working...

sosumi99
Jan 6, 2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by qgrayson
- I just joined this board...but I'm now regretting that decision. I expected to see 'adult' debate and opinion here and instead it looks like many just want to insult those with differing opinions.

- What's the deal here? Can't we 'agree to disagree?' Isn't that what 'thinking differently' is all about?

Thank you. 100% agreement here. Voice of reason, people.

ZildjianKX
Jan 6, 2004, 08:14 PM
These should have come free with Panther...

For the people who are complaining that its such a great deal and we should pay $50, then Apple shouldn't even be giving it out free with new macs, it just belittles how much its worth. They just probably want people to get use to it so they can charge for any update in the future.

jouster
Jan 6, 2004, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by rdowns
I certainly understand people's unhappiness at the price but the sense of entitlement echoed throughout this thread and others really irks me.

Fair points, rdowns, but bear in mind that there are more than a few of us who are not complaining about the fact of paying, but rather about the manner in which it has been implemented in this case. Don't you feel that the recent spate of charges reflect a much different Apple from, say, two years ago?

nuckinfutz
Jan 6, 2004, 08:14 PM
I think $300 is a damn steep annual subscription fee. Will I pay it? Yes. Do I like that it costs so much? No. Is that so evil?

No doubt. I hate that anything good in life costs money. As much as we try and buck the trend it's a natural law almost that good stuff will cost more.

Apple charging for iLife means they can no longer ship a version with bugs and the like. They are now accountable and honestly I do believe they are accountable today for the people that purchased iLife before.

Upgrades will not happen. Apple would have to serialize iLife to correctly handle upgrades. I don't think many of us want that trade off for saving a pittance but I could be wrong.

If you feel an overwhelming desire to keep your computer up to date then this is going to be an expensive hobby for you. Keeping up with the Jones' is something most people cannot afford in any arena.

JoeMacDaddy
Jan 6, 2004, 08:15 PM
I'm ready to shell out $49 to buy iLife 4.0. This is very reasonable especially compaired to buy from M$oft. Even Panther for the Family pack was cheaper than the last Win upgrage. Apple still has the best product and the lowest Total Cost of Ownership.

Thanks Steve!