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MacBytes
Jan 8, 2004, 04:02 PM
Category: Photos
Link: MacWorld Expo Photos of the iPod Mini (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20040108170249)

Macitynet.it has posted an iPod Mini photo gallery from MacWorld Expo. The photos help illustrate thesmall size of the new iPod Minis.

In an MSNBC article Steve Jobs suggests that he thinks "one of the biggest customers for the mini is going to be current owners buying a second iPod. They're going to have both -- when I go on a trip I take my whole library with my iPod and when I go to the gym I take the mini."

AirUncleP
Jan 8, 2004, 04:17 PM
I consider myself a mac guy all the way and I don't have any size iPod. Donations accepted.

QCassidy352
Jan 8, 2004, 04:18 PM
"one of the biggest customers for the mini is going to be current owners buying a second iPod. They're going to have both -- when I go on a trip I take my whole library with my iPod and when I go to the gym I take the mini."

No, i don't think so. The size difference is just not that significant.

Hemingray
Jan 8, 2004, 04:22 PM
Would be nice, but I don't have the cash. Tell ya what, Stevie-boy, lower it to $199 and I'll think about it. ;)

LaughingMan
Jan 8, 2004, 04:23 PM
Just like with my first experience with the original iPod, I imagined this thing to be much bigger than it really is, and seeing it compared next to my Sony Ericsson phone really drives that home... smaller in every dimension other than width.

Say what you will about pricing... i'll agree its not the best value, but the new iPod Mini looks very nice and is TINY.

Nebrie
Jan 8, 2004, 04:24 PM
That is exactly how I planned to use my ipods when I ordered them

arn
Jan 8, 2004, 04:25 PM
yep...

I think there is value for a smaller iPod.... some people want ultra portability. This is very small... more "pocketable" than even the 3rd gen iPods.

4GB is still a lot of music.

arn

elgruga
Jan 8, 2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
" The size difference is just not that significant.

I beg to differ - the difference has me ordering a mini as soon as they reach these frozen wastes - and I already have a 10 gig regular.

Compared to my other pocket electronics, the regular ipod is the biggest. My Motorola (yes, those same guys) V66 is way smaller than the ipod, and I want a mini to be the same.

This aint about logic - perhaps it should be....... :eek:

Mr.Hey
Jan 8, 2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by arn
yep...

I think there is value for a smaller iPod.... some people want ultra portability. This is very small... more "pocketable" than even the 3rd gen iPods.

4GB is still a lot of music.

arn

I concur.

AirUncleP
Jan 8, 2004, 04:31 PM
When I showed my middle school students the iPod mini, " cool " was the response. When I talked about price and size and capacity they all said they wanted the mini. Some even said they'd ask their parents for one. Did Apple miss the Xmas, excuse me, holiday season on this one?

elgruga
Jan 8, 2004, 04:34 PM
Just looked at the pictures - yes, I know I should have done that before posting.

WOW!

Its so beautiful next to the phone!
Got to have one.
Well, I dont drink or smoke, or do drugs, and I figure this is a fairly harmless addiction......and only $320 CAD!

Stoffel
Jan 8, 2004, 04:36 PM
They should have introduced the mini iPods last year. It would have been the perfect christmas gift.

However, I do not think, that 2nd gen ipod users will buy a mini one. It is just way to expensive.

Superdrive
Jan 8, 2004, 04:40 PM
These look much cooler than in the Apple galleries! My 10GB (2G) will have a new baby soon. I will get one after the price drop, or perhaps the 2G mini. This is good stuff.

arn
Jan 8, 2004, 04:42 PM
I guess you do tend to pay for smaller consumer electronics.

arn

Le Big Mac
Jan 8, 2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
"one of the biggest customers for the mini is going to be current owners buying a second iPod. They're going to have both -- when I go on a trip I take my whole library with my iPod and when I go to the gym I take the mini."

No, i don't think so. The size difference is just not that significant.

Nor is the price difference. Steve's on crack, or something. 2GB at $149 he might be right. But not at current cap/price.

hokka
Jan 8, 2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by arn
I guess you do tend to pay for smaller consumer electronics.

arn

Yep! Just look at all the Sony's portable offerings (laptops included)

SiliconAddict
Jan 8, 2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Hemingray
Would be nice, but I don't have the cash. Tell ya what, Stevie-boy, lower it to $199 and I'll think about it. ;)

Amen. I'll get a 60GB, oops not out yet, before I get a $250 4GB iPod mini

TMay
Jan 8, 2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Stoffel
They should have introduced the mini iPods last year. It would have been the perfect christmas gift.

However, I do not think, that 2nd gen ipod users will buy a mini one. It is just way to expensive.

In the next 3 months, 25% of the world population (approximately) will have birthdays, weddings, retirements, and who knows what else. In the U.S., I would consider $250 for a gift to be excessive, but, then again, I'm not the father of a teenage girl (or boy for that matter).

Kingsnapped
Jan 8, 2004, 04:52 PM
Dont' you think Apple knows that this will be a massive holiday seller? They didn't want to take any thunder from the current iPod, so they held on to this until Macworld. By doing this, they can charge more, then drop prices or release another one in time for summer. By the time the next holidays roll around, they can have the price closer to $170-ish... as well as a lot of word of mouth about how great the iPod minis are. If they were relased in say, early November, there wouldn't be time for a price drop, and people wouldn't have had time for their friends and family to beg for them.

lem0nayde
Jan 8, 2004, 05:06 PM
I'm just not getting the appeal of these mini iPods either. I was looking forward to them, hoping to maybe get one for someone for their birthday - expecting them to be like $150 and use older small harddrives with less capacity.

I think Steve Jobs' argument for the audience is weak at best. I mean, do people really care THAT much about size? You'd have to be a very foolish consumer to choose a mini iPod over a regular iPod.

The only difference is a meager .5" height .4" width and .12" depth and the aesthetic appearance.

For $50 more you get 11GB more space!!! And the only drawback is you have to carry around an ipod that is a tiny bit bigger and a whopping 2 oz. heavier. Oh, and it looks better!!! Darn.

Where is the appeal?

Aside from all that, I personally thing the new minis are ugly. The metallic colors are unnattractive and the silver is OK but not nearly as sharp as the white. They look like the kind of junk other companies make.

I think unless the price drops significantly, this product will be the G4 Cube of the digital music sector.

Sorry Apple, I love ya - but sometimes ya just don't make no sense.

arn
Jan 8, 2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde

The only difference is a meager .5" height .4" width and .12" depth and the aesthetic appearance.


Actually, I would argue that at these sizes .5" inch differences are more significant then at larger sizes.

Just think about all the cell phones out there... and even one that's only slightly bigger makes a big diff in your pocket.

arn

blueBomber
Jan 8, 2004, 05:10 PM
sigh... just when I was getting set in my ways of swearing off the mini as a failure, these pictures make me fall in love with the stupid thing.:p

bdkennedy1
Jan 8, 2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by AirUncleP
Did Apple miss the Xmas, excuse me, holiday season on this one?

How did they miss the holiday season? There's another one 11 months from now.

snofseth
Jan 8, 2004, 05:13 PM
I also think the new minis r ugly and funny looking I would like them to make the 40 the same size as the 20 and 15 that would be nice. But I have a question I would like to ask. What is the advantage of having an Xserve over individual macs I dont really understand the whole use of servers? can someone please explain this please.

IIvan
Jan 8, 2004, 05:13 PM
I have used older ipods, and I would bet that that new aluminum finish is stronger, resists scratching better, and gives the player a less fragile feel. Plus IMO it looks alot better

hokka
Jan 8, 2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde
I think Steve Jobs' argument for the audience is weak at best. I mean, do people really care THAT much about size? You'd have to be a very foolish consumer to choose a mini iPod over a regular iPod.

...

Where is the appeal?

Apart from the gym go-ers as described by Steve:

1]. Asians care
2]. Girls care
3]. Asian girls would care even more ;)

Just think of all the nifty accessories for the mini due to it's smaller size and lighter weight such as wear it around your neck (mmm, I should market that ;) )

just a thought
Jan 8, 2004, 05:17 PM
OK, but really: Those Xserve G5s sure aren't the prettiest things on earth, are they?

taeclee99
Jan 8, 2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by hokka
Apart from the gym go-ers as described by Steve:

3]. Asian girls would care even more ;)

J

This is the best rationale for buying a mini ipod that I've heard yet!

blueBomber
Jan 8, 2004, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by snofseth
I also think the new minis r ugly and funny looking I would like them to make the 40 the same size as the 20 and 15 that would be nice. But I have a question I would like to ask. What is the advantage of having an Xserve over individual macs I dont really understand the whole use of servers? can someone please explain this please.

The most obvious advantage is space. Also, you can place the XServe in a standard rack configuration, which allows you to easily place it along side your other hardware. I'm sure there's more, but I'm not an IT guy, just a graphics geek.

CrackedButter
Jan 8, 2004, 05:22 PM
I wonder what the pricing is on the UK ipod and why wait till the release date, why can't we preorder so that Apple can ascertain the demand they might recieve.

Anyway my uncle goes to the US often and I'll just get him to buy one for him and get it after conversion far cheaper than what apple will price it at.

IIvan
Jan 8, 2004, 05:27 PM
no one is that worried about appearances, as they are not really home machines

Ive heard those things are as loud as jets! ;)

jeffmc425
Jan 8, 2004, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by snofseth
I also think the new minis r ugly and funny looking I would like them to make the 40 the same size as the 20 and 15 that would be nice. But I have a question I would like to ask. What is the advantage of having an Xserve over individual macs I dont really understand the whole use of servers? can someone please explain this please.

Well, for normal home users (except for the power geek) and Xserve would be unsual to have. However for corporations using servers, most of these are in rack mounted units in a computer room somewhere. (BTW-- there are alot of Linux servers in the iU,2U,3U configs). These are normally headless devices and are used as mail servers, web servers, J2EE servers, app servers, sotrage servers, etc.
When you have a company with 300 people, have a powerful server is a good thing. ANd the ability to rack mount them with other devices like network routers, etc, is a great thing.
Xserve's, in other words, not for home use. :)
Given that, I'd love to have one in my house, so I can put it in the network rack in the utility room. Oh, did i say "power geek earlier?

:)

sockit2me
Jan 8, 2004, 05:31 PM
So, Jobs says he thinks owners of previous iPods are gong to buy these too? If that's the case they've already made a huge mistake: iTunes isn't set up for dual iPods. So, let's say you have 13 gigs of music, a 10 gig iPod and one of these new 4 gig mini's. How do you decide which songs end up on which player? Clearly, they're going to need to fundamentally re-think their current system. And it's something they should have done a long time ago. The whole check box paradigm is the least intuitive and user-friendly interface concept in ANY iApp apple sells. As it is right now, if I uncheck a box it won't end up on my ipod, won't play when I have iTunes on shuffle and won't play in playlists I may have created with that song in it, unless I manually go into that playlist and change it. Yet, it doesn't work in reverse. Goofy, unintuitive and just bad logic. Just because I don't have "Rhapsody in Blue", which clocks in at 16:00 minutes on my iPod, doesn't mean that I don't want to listen to it at all, just that I don't want to give up the space on my iPod for it. This new mini iPod will exacerbate these issues for the owner of two iPods. The way I see it, Apple really needs to start offering multiple check boxes, something along the lines of say... iCal's multiple calendars. Something that will allow overlap. And they better do this soon if they want previous iPod owners like me to pony up the $249 they are asking right now for the mini.

ITR 81
Jan 8, 2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde
I'm just not getting the appeal of these mini iPods either. I was looking forward to them, hoping to maybe get one for someone for their birthday - expecting them to be like $150 and use older small harddrives with less capacity.

I think Steve Jobs' argument for the audience is weak at best. I mean, do people really care THAT much about size? You'd have to be a very foolish consumer to choose a mini iPod over a regular iPod.

The only difference is a meager .5" height .4" width and .12" depth and the aesthetic appearance.

For $50 more you get 11GB more space!!! And the only drawback is you have to carry around an ipod that is a tiny bit bigger and a whopping 2 oz. heavier. Oh, and it looks better!!! Darn.

Where is the appeal?

Aside from all that, I personally thing the new minis are ugly. The metallic colors are unnattractive and the silver is OK but not nearly as sharp as the white. They look like the kind of junk other companies make.

I think unless the price drops significantly, this product will be the G4 Cube of the digital music sector.

Sorry Apple, I love ya - but sometimes ya just don't make no sense.

It appeals to me.

SJ is right I own an 40GB iPod and I want the iPod mini. The reason why?? To exercise with and looks sporty and handsome. I've seen 4 people already order one and all them are PC users.

Most HS kids I've met said they would buy the iPod mini over the a flash player because of price. They like the colours and that it's the size of a cell phone.

Most of the college girls I've talked with have said the samething.
One girl said,
"Pink is the new iPod white".
This makes me think the iPod mini will be popular among HS and college people.

Silver is popular with the guys and the Pink is popular with the girls.
Blue and Green are also popular.

Gold doesn't seem all that popular but that could change.

ITR 81
Jan 8, 2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by just a thought
OK, but really: Those Xserve G5s sure aren't the prettiest things on earth, are they?

Nah, they look mean and cold and industrial like they should.

QCassidy352
Jan 8, 2004, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by elgruga
I beg to differ - the difference has me ordering a mini as soon as they reach these frozen wastes - and I already have a 10 gig regular.

Compared to my other pocket electronics, the regular ipod is the biggest. My Motorola (yes, those same guys) V66 is way smaller than the ipod, and I want a mini to be the same.

This aint about logic - perhaps it should be....... :eek:

the original is already easily small enough to go in a pocket.

the mini is not yet small enough to be truly unobtrusive when working out.

So you can talk about % differences and total volume and what-have-you, but the way I see it, the usability difference is zero.

Omad0n
Jan 8, 2004, 05:39 PM
I'm amazed at the size of the new minis! I had no idea they were that small! Almost makes me think twice about getting a 20gig iPod tonight.

Dahl
Jan 8, 2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
"one of the biggest customers for the mini is going to be current owners buying a second iPod. They're going to have both -- when I go on a trip I take my whole library with my iPod and when I go to the gym I take the mini."

No, i don't think so. The size difference is just not that significant.
I agree.
We need less gadgets, not more.
If I spend $250-400 on a digital player, it better serve me all the time, not just when I take a trip or go to the gym.

blueBomber
Jan 8, 2004, 05:43 PM
to sockit2me ----> This is exactly what I thought about when I read Steve Job's comment.

mjtomlin
Jan 8, 2004, 06:00 PM
The beauty of the Xserves is that now you can get 3-4x the processing power in the same space that you could with the towers. 1.5 TeraFlops in a 42u rack.

*drool*

Introducing SystemX mini...
It won't fit on your sleeve while your jogging, but it will reengineer your DNA by the time you get back, so you won't have to jog anymore. :D

mullmann
Jan 8, 2004, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde

For $50 more you get 11GB more space!!! And the only drawback is you have to carry around an ipod that is a tiny bit bigger and a whopping 2 oz. heavier. Oh, and it looks better!!! Darn.

Where is the appeal?


This may be the most frequently-mentioned criticism of the mini's pricing, and also the most illogical. Yes, 11 extra GB for $50 more might be a great value -- but only if you need the space. On my 10GB G2 iPod, I have well over 24 hours worth of music and 30 hours of audiobooks (at maximum quality) and still have almost 7GB free. A mini would have more than suited my needs, as I could have all the content I want (which I currently do) and still have some room to grow. Paying $50 extra for space I don't need or want isn't smart; it's exactly the opposite. I'll bet there are plenty of people in my shoes who, when faced with this choice, will choose the Mini with no hesitation. I would have.

jwhitnah
Jan 8, 2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
the original is already easily small enough to go in a pocket.

the mini is not yet small enough to be truly unobtrusive when working out.

So you can talk about % differences and total volume and what-have-you, but the way I see it, the usability difference is zero.

The mini is a big improvement but should be priced at $200. This was my thinking until I read this http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/08/technology/08CND-MUSI.html?ex=1074229200&en=dd8a74bbad6fdba6&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
Apple looked at the past and said, "Never again!" One or 2 other manufacturer's climb on board making iPod clones and Apple will be the M$ of music. Apple says iTunes is a Trojan horse for iPods. I think iPod will be a MAJOR factor in increasing mindshare and eventual marketshare of their personal computers.:)

mjtomlin
Jan 8, 2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde
For $50 more you get 11GB more space!!!

True, so buy regular iPod instead of the iPod mini! What does Apple care as long as you buy an iPod? I think people keep looking at the price scheme from the wrong point-of-view.

Anyone interested in plunking down $250 bucks for a digital music player, probably wouldn't have a problem paying another $50 for something with 4x more capacity. However someone who is willing to spend $175-200 may also be enticed to spend $50-75 more for an iPod mini which has 4-16x more capacity. These same people may not be willing to go $100+ to upgrade to an iPod.

Dahl
Jan 8, 2004, 06:22 PM
Good point, mullmann.

I also want to mention that you CAN SWAP OUT your tunes if you feel like it, nobody ever mentions that.
Everybody sounds like they just upload the songs to their iPod and leave them there. While it's the easy way to do it, I wouldn't mind swapping out songs now and then, if it means my iPod is as small as I want it and cheap(er) at the same time.

applekid
Jan 8, 2004, 06:29 PM
I've thought of something. It's a very good rationale for getting an iPod Mini. Here it goes:

Remember Steve said the iPod Mini is to defeat the high-end flash market? Alright, I know of plenty of people that have PCs and don't want either the iPod's high capacity or because they want some cheapo flash player. Now this group of people are the types that are less computer literate and use PCs because they need a low-cost computer. Many of these people are saving up to buy an MP3 player to use on their weak PC. Most of them want about 256 MB which can go from the prices of $150 to $200. So you've got a person with $200 ready to buy his/her MP3 player, but then he/she sees an iPod Mini. 4 GB or 1,000 songs. Now they're thinking "should I spend 200 bucks for about 30 songs or throw down an extra 50 bucks for 1,000 songs?" Remember, they've been ignoring the iPods of all sizes for the reasons stated above, so 4 GB at that price should be appealing if you compare it to every MP3 player besides the original iPods.

Originally posted by ITR 81
Most HS kids I've met said they would buy the iPod mini over the a flash player because of price. They like the colours and that it's the size of a cell phone.

This is the exact demographic it's aimed at. The people I've described above are most likely that high schooler or college student. It has appeal to them because they need to only shell out only 50 more dollars, not 100.

Steven1621
Jan 8, 2004, 06:31 PM
no doubt that it is an impressive product, but so is 11 more gigs for only $50 more on a normal ipod.

s10
Jan 8, 2004, 06:35 PM
Until now, the only thing a man was proud of having smaller then other men was his mobile phone...
Now they can also have a smaller iPod!

hokka
Jan 8, 2004, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Steven1621
no doubt that it is an impressive product, but so is 11 more gigs for only $50 more on a normal ipod.

Hello???!! Any boday home???!!

Gosh, some of you are either thick or not willing to think deeper... like what you've just said is what Apple INTENDED - for the 500th time in the last couple of days

SMALL gadgets do cost more (aka Sony), and the iPod is a good example when compared to the 2.5" Portable HDs

Last, don't complain if you can't afford it as I'm sure you'd get it if money was no concern, go and make some more money then, instead of sounding like a sissy!

northstar
Jan 8, 2004, 06:48 PM
As a current owner of a 20gig iPod.. i would say that mini still has some appeal, but not at that price. My pocketbook is still hurting from the first one. I'd love to have a smaller version to take to the gym.. but I just cant afford it. Sorry Steve.

avus
Jan 8, 2004, 06:58 PM
I'd rather have two 4GB iPod minis than a 40GB iPod because:

1. I don't have to have all of my music collection in an iPod. My PowerMac is much better at holding and managing it.

2. This is personal, but I would like to separate my Classical music library from Jazz/Pop music library, and an iPod Mini for each library/playlist, because the current iTunes/iTMS does a very poor job of sorting/labeling for my Classical music library and mixing it with Jazz/Pop music library can be a nightmare (I won't get into the detail, as I am aware that Classical Music fans are the minority)

It's not that I will order two minis right now - I will wait for a price drop, but the capacity of an iPod is totally irreverent in my decision.

craigiest
Jan 8, 2004, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by mullmann
This may be the most frequently-mentioned criticism of the mini's pricing, and also the most illogical. Yes, 11 extra GB for $50 more might be a great value -- but only if you need the space. On my 10GB G2 iPod, I have well over 24 hours worth of music and 30 hours of audiobooks (at maximum quality) and still have almost 7GB free. A mini would have more than suited my needs, as I could have all the content I want (which I currently do) and still have some room to grow. Paying $50 extra for space I don't need or want isn't smart; it's exactly the opposite. I'll bet there are plenty of people in my shoes who, when faced with this choice, will choose the Mini with no hesitation. I would have.

I remember when we got a C=1541 floppy drive for the Commodore 64, as a kid. I couldn't imagine EVER needing more than a couple of disks, because 166 KB was SO MUCH space. In 1994, my roommate got a 1 GB HD and I was totally blown away that he spent so much money for space he'd never need. Now I struggle to keep some free space available on my 80 GB drive, which is 500,000 times bigger than those old commodore 5 1/4's.

When you run out of space on the 4 GB, you'll be paying $300, not $50, for the extra 11 gigs.

pbooktebo
Jan 8, 2004, 07:11 PM
I thought the minis were hardly interesting after watching the Keynote on Tuesday, but today I dropped by the MacWorld expo, and touched one.

Wow.

Apple did it again. It feels very solid and substantial, the color (I viewed a gold one) was wonderful, and it just "felt right."

If there's a problem, it is that it really only makes such an impact in person, and it will be a while before people have them in their hands.

grrr223
Jan 8, 2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by sockit2me
So, Jobs says he thinks owners of previous iPods are gong to buy these too? If that's the case they've already made a huge mistake: iTunes isn't set up for dual iPods. So, let's say you have 13 gigs of music, a 10 gig iPod and one of these new 4 gig mini's. How do you decide which songs end up on which player? Clearly, they're going to need to fundamentally re-think their current system. And it's something they should have done a long time ago. The whole check box paradigm is the least intuitive and user-friendly interface concept in ANY iApp apple sells. As it is right now, if I uncheck a box it won't end up on my ipod, won't play when I have iTunes on shuffle and won't play in playlists I may have created with that song in it, unless I manually go into that playlist and change it. Yet, it doesn't work in reverse. Goofy, unintuitive and just bad logic. Just because I don't have "Rhapsody in Blue", which clocks in at 16:00 minutes on my iPod, doesn't mean that I don't want to listen to it at all, just that I don't want to give up the space on my iPod for it. This new mini iPod will exacerbate these issues for the owner of two iPods. The way I see it, Apple really needs to start offering multiple check boxes, something along the lines of say... iCal's multiple calendars. Something that will allow overlap. And they better do this soon if they want previous iPod owners like me to pony up the $249 they are asking right now for the mini.

The situation isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. I'll get to the check box thing in a minute. But first, it's important to keep in mind:

While an iPod can only sync to one computer (as far as Apple is concerned). iTunes easily supports multiple iPods.

Don't use "Syncronize all", Just select which playlists are synced, when you plug in you 10 GB iPod, maybe you have entire genre's selected, or playlists of full albums by your favorite artists. It can sync and everything is fine. Then when you plug in your 4 GB mini iPod, it has it's own list of playlists to syncronize with iTunes. And maybe this time you are only syncing favorite songs instead of favorite albums, or you've added stricter requirements, or size limits to the playlists for your mini iPod.

I understand your issue with the checkboxes. You are correct, you can only check or uncheck each song once, and it applies universally (to all iPods). Fortunately, there are numerous ways to get around this problem such as adding the words "mini" or "iPod" to the comments or even the new Grouping field. There are applescripts from Doug's applescripts that will help automate adding or deleting these words from all the songs you have selected. Things like that.

Anyway, this is how iTunes works TODAY. It is already set up to quite nicely handle syncing with 2 different iPods. And smart playlists make it a breeze. Too bad I'd never be able to justify owning two iPods if the cheapest one was at $250 when there are so many other things I need to buy...like food and beer :).

snofseth
Jan 8, 2004, 07:20 PM
thanks to all who answered my server question, but as to the talk about HS studenets and the new Ipods. I am a High School student. The misconception people made about the ipods from the rumors is smaller means cheaper, but that is crazy. Smaller copacity does mean cheaper, but not size. Dont look at the apple powerbooks, but look at things like pc laptops like the dells the cheaper ones are huge and look at cell phones in most cases you pay a premium for a smaller phone. I have a 40gb right now and it is overkill a lot. I only have 4.5 gb of music and not very many files to put on it, but they didn't have the 20's so 40 it was. The 10's i dont like b/c the dont have a dock. If the new design does not scratch on the new mini ipods that would be awesome b/c that case on the others attrack scratches. Apple needs to put larger drives in the mini ipods and they probably will, but they minis need to become the normal

MrMacMan
Jan 8, 2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by MacBytes
In an MSNBC article Steve Jobs suggests that he thinks "one of the biggest customers for the mini is going to be current owners buying a second iPod. They're going to have both -- when I go on a trip I take my whole library with my iPod and when I go to the gym I take the mini."

Arg... who has this kind of cash to burn?

Really.

Jobs, I would take my iPod (1 of them) Both places.

How about that?

:rolleyes:

mullmann
Jan 8, 2004, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by craigiest
I remember when we got a C=1541 floppy drive for the Commodore 64, as a kid. I couldn't imagine EVER needing more than a couple of disks, because 166 KB was SO MUCH space. In 1994, my roommate got a 1 GB HD and I was totally blown away that he spent so much money for space he'd never need. Now I struggle to keep some free space available on my 80 GB drive, which is 500,000 times bigger than those old commodore 5 1/4's.

When you run out of space on the 4 GB, you'll be paying $300, not $50, for the extra 11 gigs.

An interesting point, but I don't think it's the same paradigm. Yes, the iPod can be used as a portable drive, in which use it would more closely line up with your example, but let's focus on its nominal use as a music player. In my case, as I said, I have over 50 hours of content on my iPod -- 50 HOURS. I can't imagine a time that I would be away from my iMac or Powerbook for so long that I would exhaust 50 hours of content, let alone listen to it so many times that I would be begging to have more (which, by the way, I could even on a Mini -- probably another 10-15 hours worth). Which brings up a second point, which several people have made: you don't have to put everything you own on your iPod. If I had 200 hours of content, I could pick and choose what I wanted to take with me at any moment -- or let my Mac choose, or whatever. The value to me of knowing that I could listen to any song for which I might possibly have a whim right then and there isn't worth $100 to me, or even $50. In other words, a Mini feels just right.

There are plenty of people who won't feel this way, and will want or need the extra space. All I'm saying is that I suspect that there are an awful lot of people like me out there who will find the Mini the best value for their needs.

QCassidy352
Jan 8, 2004, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by craigiest

When you run out of space on the 4 GB, you'll be paying $300, not $50, for the extra 11 gigs.

well said! I think a good general rule with technology is "buy the best you can afford." When you're always going for the bottom of the line, you're always one step from needing to upgrade.

The nice thing about the ipod is that you don't *have* to choose what songs you take with you. SJ said as much in criticizing the flash players. So the argument that you don't need all of your music with you at once doesn't seem all that valid to me. If you have more than 4 gigs of music and still buy a mini... well, I just don't get that. The beauty of an ipod is supposed to be that you don't have to decide before you go out the door what songs you'll want later. You have them all.

QuiteSure
Jan 8, 2004, 07:57 PM
I think that $250 for the mini is OK. It's kind of like buying a car or a house; you have your budget, and you look in your price range, but then you see something that you really love that's just a bit higher, so you spend some time trying to figure out how you're going to get it.

Used to be, the iPod wasn't really that product for the buyers of 128 and 256 mb flash music players; it was too far out of reach. Now, the mini is just a little out of reach, but not so far as to be unobtainable.

We all want things to be cheaper, but they're just not.

And why would Apple have produced the mini before Christmas? They sold nearly a million iPods! The mini can be the super hot item for NEXT Christmas.

dashiel
Jan 8, 2004, 08:02 PM
i'm curious how many of the people "appalled" at the price of the new mini, were also appalled at the price of the original ipod?

i mean this situation is almost a carbon copy of 2 years ago. people knew apple was releasing a music device, speculation was it was based on a small HD, speculation was it was going to cost $199 (as i recall).

jobs demos the things, people go nuts, it's so cool. jobs then compares the ipod to flash players and other hd players. the ipod wins hands down.

then comes the price, it's $200 more than what everyone was guessing.

jump over to the apple sites and there's loads of "it's too expensive", "jobs is nuts this thing will fail".

cut to a few days/weeks later when people actually get to hold them...

"oh wow this is way smaller than i thought"

cut to 1 year later and the ipod is the most successful mp3 player ever. and amazingly most of the ipod doubters don't bark quite so loud (if at all, i think they must have all converted either to owning one or wanting one... except for the "it doesn't play ogg? slashdot crowd)

i wonder how many of these current doubters will be converts or singing jobs' praise for being a genius as the mp3 charts shows something like:

1) ipod 20gig
2) ipod mini 2gig
3) ipod mini 4gig
4) ipod 40gig
5) ipod 60gig

let's come back here, a year from now and everyone honestly put whether they were right or wrong. for the record i think they're going to be a big hit, apple the mp3 company is much smarter than apple the computer company.

jnasato
Jan 8, 2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Kingsnapped
Dont' you think Apple knows that this will be a massive holiday seller? They didn't want to take any thunder from the current iPod, so they held on to this until Macworld. By doing this, they can charge more, then drop prices or release another one in time for summer. By the time the next holidays roll around, they can have the price closer to $170-ish... as well as a lot of word of mouth about how great the iPod minis are. If they were relased in say, early November, there wouldn't be time for a price drop, and people wouldn't have had time for their friends and family to beg for them.

Yah, this makes sense.
Though I would hope that the mini would be at ~$150 in 11 months time. That'd be ideal (A deal, also...).

mullmann
Jan 8, 2004, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
If you have more than 4 gigs of music and still buy a mini... well, I just don't get that.

Exactly my point. Not everyone is like you. Not everyone has more than 4 GB of music. Not everyone would buy a $50 option for space they may never use. Not everyone has the same value for having all their music with them all the time no matter what, even if they have more than 4 GB worth. Look at it from the opposite direction: in the various threads on this topic over the past couple of days, think about how many people have stated that they would have snapped up a Mini at $199, but won't touch it at $249. The value proposition -- combination of features, price, and their needs -- isn't right for them. That can certainly be true of the 15 GB model at $299, so the Mini gives that user base a place to turn. More choices for more people.

jeremiahblatz
Jan 8, 2004, 08:24 PM
I have a r1 5 gig iPod. If I had to replace it, it'd probably get the miniPod. The joy of iTunes sync is that you can select by random. So, my iPod has all of my music that's highly rated, plus a random selection of music that I haven't rated. This keeps my iPod music enjoyable but ever-changing. 4 gigs is around 2 days of music, so resync'ing once a week is all you need.

Dahl
Jan 8, 2004, 08:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by craigiest

When you run out of space on the 4 GB, you'll be paying $300, not $50, for the extra 11 gigs.

Originally posted by QCassidy352
well said! I think a good general rule with technology is "buy the best you can afford." When you're always going for the bottom of the line, you're always one step from needing to upgrade.

The beauty of an ipod is supposed to be that you don't have to decide before you go out the door what songs you'll want later. You have them all.

If I recall right, when Apple introduced the iPod they were playing on the "transfer speed". Wasn't S.J. demoing how fast you could transfer an album to your iPod ?

Even the largest iPod won't hold my record collection and my collection will only get larger.
You say "buy the best you can afford", that's always true, but the "best" is not always the same for all people.

Let's compare:

iPod - small, huge HD and elegant.
iPod mini - tiny, decent HD and ubercool, hottest gadget of the year already.

If you are practical, the iPod is probably the best choice, but if you don't care and and want something SMALLER and very sexy looking ( the original iPod is still sexy too ), maybe the mini is for you.

We are talking product design here, it's not just about HD space. I have some expensive lamps, they light up the room as well as any lamp, but they are very nice looking.


The original iPod is like a nice car with a big trunk. The mini is a sportscar, no backseat and very little trunk, but it makes heads spin everywhere it goes.

:)

jettredmont
Jan 8, 2004, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
"one of the biggest customers for the mini is going to be current owners buying a second iPod. They're going to have both -- when I go on a trip I take my whole library with my iPod and when I go to the gym I take the mini."

No, i don't think so. The size difference is just not that significant.

You know, people keep saying this. I think you're wrong, but you won't know it until you hold one in your hand.

The size difference between the old iPod and the MiniPod (50%) is the same as the size difference between the iPod and the bricks Creative and Archos were selling when the iPod came out (50%).

If you feel the size/weight of the current iPod in your daily workout or whatever, the 50% reduction in both size and weight will be noticed. If you don't notice the size/weight of the iPod currently, you're not the target audience for the MiniPod.

There are a good number of customers out there for whom size of device is the primary determining factor. The iPod is easily portable and fits in most (non-sports-gear) pockets, but sometimes you need smaller if you're going to take your tunes with you.

Wait to pass judgement on the MiniPod until you've held it in your hand.

Dahl
Jan 8, 2004, 08:38 PM
I think people might just give away or sell their iPod, if they want an iPod mini.
I guess I'm not a gadget junkie.:p

ClimbingTheLog
Jan 8, 2004, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
No, i don't think so. The size difference is just not that significant.

Size isn't as important as weight. The 4GB iPod Mini weighs half as much as the 40GB model.

Remember, force is a mutiplicative of mass.

So if you're running on a treadmill with an armband, you [i]really[i] want an iPod Mini.

LaughingMan
Jan 8, 2004, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by sockit2me
So, Jobs says he thinks owners of previous iPods are gong to buy these too? If that's the case they've already made a huge mistake: iTunes isn't set up for dual iPods. So, let's say you have 13 gigs of music, a 10 gig iPod and one of these new 4 gig mini's. How do you decide which songs end up on which player? Clearly, they're going to need to fundamentally re-think their current system. And it's something they should have done a long time ago. The whole check box paradigm is the least intuitive and user-friendly interface concept in ANY iApp apple sells. As it is right now, if I uncheck a box it won't end up on my ipod, won't play when I have iTunes on shuffle and won't play in playlists I may have created with that song in it, unless I manually go into that playlist and change it. Yet, it doesn't work in reverse. Goofy, unintuitive and just bad logic. Just because I don't have "Rhapsody in Blue", which clocks in at 16:00 minutes on my iPod, doesn't mean that I don't want to listen to it at all, just that I don't want to give up the space on my iPod for it. This new mini iPod will exacerbate these issues for the owner of two iPods. The way I see it, Apple really needs to start offering multiple check boxes, something along the lines of say... iCal's multiple calendars. Something that will allow overlap. And they better do this soon if they want previous iPod owners like me to pony up the $249 they are asking right now for the mini.

you are completely ignoring the Automatically update selected playlists option.

iTunes remembers the settings of each individual iPod, and remembers the sync settings if you have it set to sync the entire library or just specific playlists...

So your 40 GB iPod can be set to sync the entire library while your 4 GB iPod can be set to sync a select number of playlists that total up to 4 GB.

Personally I never use the checkboxes, and sync only specific playlists anyhow...

iTunes already has the ability to handle multiple iPods.

kirk26
Jan 8, 2004, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by taeclee99
This is the best rationale for buying a mini ipod that I've heard yet!

Beck446
Jan 8, 2004, 09:51 PM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but Jobs is right about people getting a second iPod. I know I got my first one nearly 2 years ago, and while I sold it long ago on eBay, I do know the batteries on those things don't last forever and they are super prone to scratches, ect, so I would think that now is about the time that those first couple iPods way back two years ago are nearing mandatory-replacement.

This is, of course, why the laptop business is so good for apple. These things get replaced probably twice as often as desktops. Just goes with the territory when you are carrying something around with you all the time. Just look at that tattered wallet in your pocket.

Plus, I'd love to see some more bundles - iPods and Powerbooks!


P@ul

ganryu
Jan 8, 2004, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by MrMacman
Arg... who has this kind of cash to burn?

Really.

Jobs, I would take my iPod (1 of them) Both places.

How about that?

:rolleyes:

I do. I'm getting the mini for gym, and leaving my 15gig 3rd gen ipod in my car.

I make 82K a year, and after tax, I still manage to save 3K a month.

Sorry boy, but you can always get a better job.

Dahl
Jan 8, 2004, 10:04 PM
.

autrefois
Jan 8, 2004, 10:59 PM
Meanwhile, Joswiak noted that they would settle on a UK price "closer to the availability date" due to the volatility of the currency exchange. Joswiak also comments on the rumors of a $100 iPod:

"That's why all this nonsense about us doing a $99 player was just that. We weren't going to do a player that does 30 songs - it's very uninteresting to us."

People have made convincing arguments both pro and con after the iPod mini announcement. This one however makes absolutely no sense.

Is Mr. Joswiak implying that there is nothing between 30 songs and 1,000??

4gig drives are possible, but not 2gig? We know this isn't true.

2gigs, that's 500 songs. Unless you work out for over 1500 minutes (over a day) straight, that's plenty of music.

1) iPod mini, 2 gigs, $199. 500 songs.
2) iPod mini, 4 gigs, $249. 1000 songs.

Seems pretty simple to me.

I wish they would just come out and say that they just didn't want to release an iPod under $200, for one or many of the reasons people have been saying (profit, prestige, etc.).

I'm sure if Apple wanted to, they could have designed one for cheaper that $199 as well, but that's another story...

I agree the iPod mini is very cool and they did wonderful job with the design.

I disagree with their pricing and apparent philosophy/marketing strategy.

"The iPod mini--For people who already have an iPod. For people who work out. The rest of you can buy a cheapo player with 30 songs or a 15 gig iPod with 10,000 songs"

Oh well [sigh]

autrefois
Jan 8, 2004, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by ganryu
I do. I'm getting the mini for gym, and leaving my 15gig 3rd gen ipod in my car.

I make 82K a year, and after tax, I still manage to save 3K a month.

Sorry boy, but you can always get a better job.

All of us complaining about the price just weren't thinking straight.

All we have to do is go get a job that makes 82K a year. Why didn't we think of that? In today's economy there are tons of those. :)

akac
Jan 9, 2004, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by Steven1621
no doubt that it is an impressive product, but so is 11 more gigs for only $50 more on a normal ipod.

Yep and both are iPods...Apple is happy with your money either way ;)

But seriously - the mini-iPod is the size I would carry it. The big brother is actually too big for me. I want the mini-iPod to be even smaller. I'd pay $300 easy for a 4GB super-mini :)

ALoLA
Jan 9, 2004, 02:39 AM
I'm starting to like the mini. It's growing on me. And since I have a 1G 5GB, it'll be noticeably smaller. Besides, I'm barely even using 3 GB now, so 4 GB is not a problem. :)

Is it just me, or would anyone else like to see an Apple phone with the same form factor? ;)

ganryu
Jan 9, 2004, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by autrefois
All of us complaining about the price just weren't thinking straight.

All we have to do is go get a job that makes 82K a year. Why didn't we think of that? In today's economy there are tons of those. :)

If everyone uses the time they spend complaining about the price, and instead use it to improve their skills, I'm sure they can find a better job... At least the chances of that happening is bigger than Steve Jobs listening to you guys and lowering the prices.

voodoofish
Jan 9, 2004, 04:00 AM
don't you love how they listened to all the UK users bitching about the price? that's what makes me love apple

ganryu
Jan 9, 2004, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by voodoofish
don't you love how they listened to all the UK users bitching about the price? that's what makes me love apple

That's more or less a currency issue, because of the weakening dollar. They're not folding in because too many cheap people are being too loud.

alset
Jan 9, 2004, 06:27 AM
I'd like to know what features for multi-iPod management Apple intends to incorporate into iTunes. I can't see using two iPods without enhanced control.

iPod-mini turned out to be much smaller than nicer than I expected. Very slick. Still don't expect that I would ever trade down. I'd rather get one of the BT enabled transmitter/receiver devices. Can't remember the name of the company manufacturing them. The demo was really cool, though.

Dan

lem0nayde
Jan 9, 2004, 10:42 AM
I think the biggest disappointment with the pricing of the mini iPods is that we all want Apple to gain consumer mindshare and grow as a company, but Jobs and co. continue to market only to those with expendable income and a willingness to waste money on nonsense technology.

Sure, for Jobs buying two iPods makes perfect sense. He is the CEO of two ********* companies for Christ's sake. But, for my sister, buying one would take her 5 months to save up. The reality is 85K salaries are not available to everyone and if Apple wants to broaden it's market, it's going to have to come out with products that are truly "for the rest of us."

Currently, the cheapo players are "for the rest of us" because most people do not have the luxury to waste $300 on a music player, let alone $600 so they can have an extra one.

For the record - so I am not accused of whining - I actually do make enough money to purchase one - I am just thinking of Apple's ability to inch it's way into the mainstream. High prices are not the way to do that - that's why Wal-Mart is the largest corporation in the world.

If it ever wants to get out of it's niche - Apple needs to think in this order:

1.) FUNCTION
2.) PRICE
3.) FORM

I love pretty things, I'm an artist after all. But they should have options for those who can't afford the gloss.

Joe

avus
Jan 9, 2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde
I think the biggest disappointment with the pricing of the mini iPods is that we all want Apple to gain consumer mindshare and grow as a company, but Jobs and co. continue to market only to those with expendable income and a willingness to waste money on nonsense technology.

Sure, for Jobs buying two iPods makes perfect sense. He is the CEO of two ********* companies for Christ's sake. But, for my sister, buying one would take her 5 months to save up. The reality is 85K salaries are not available to everyone and if Apple wants to broaden it's market, it's going to have to come out with products that are truly "for the rest of us."

Currently, the cheapo players are "for the rest of us" because most people do not have the luxury to waste $300 on a music player, let alone $600 so they can have an extra one.

For the record - so I am not accused of whining - I actually do make enough money to purchase one - I am just thinking of Apple's ability to inch it's way into the mainstream. High prices are not the way to do that - that's why Wal-Mart is the largest corporation in the world.

If it ever wants to get out of it's niche - Apple needs to think in this order:

1.) FUNCTION
2.) PRICE
3.) FORM

I love pretty things, I'm an artist after all. But they should have options for those who can't afford the gloss.

Joe

How can you berate Apple for marketing "nonsence technology" while your only gripe seems to be pricing? How does it become relevant if it is cheaper? Also, Wal-Mart is known for every unethical business tactic for being the largest corporation in the world, in case you aren't aware.

alset
Jan 9, 2004, 02:11 PM
Also worth repeating that the Rio has the same price-point. Apple isn't overkilling the price for this capacity MP3 player. They just aren't in a position to compete with truly "cheap," (not to be read as "inexpensive") players.

Dan

lem0nayde
Jan 9, 2004, 03:25 PM
Wal-mart is completely evil, no doubt. The point is that people, by and large, need things to be inexpensive.

As per "nonsense technology" I should have better chosen my words, what I meant was "frivolous" - meaning that noone really NEEDS it. The technology is good, but we can all live without a mini iPod...or an iPod for that matter.

Dahl
Jan 9, 2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde
Wal-mart is completely evil, no doubt. The point is that people, by and large, need things to be inexpensive.

I agree.
People "need" things to be cheap, because they don't get a good pay. It's a screw without end. Walmart are like a plague, but will people see that before it's too late ? Walmart is only good short term, they are like the companies that cut down rain forrest for a cheap buck and leaves a wasteland in their wake.

ganryu
Jan 9, 2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde
Wal-mart is completely evil, no doubt. The point is that people, by and large, need things to be inexpensive.

As per "nonsense technology" I should have better chosen my words, what I meant was "frivolous" - meaning that noone really NEEDS it. The technology is good, but we can all live without a mini iPod...or an iPod for that matter.
No one really NEEDS anything, except for adequate food and shelter to keep them warm and alive. Apple, just like all companies, exist to make a profit, and they're not a community service.

If the price point is too high for you, you need to work harder and earn the money to buy it, but since you consider their products full of frivolous technology anyways, you might as well buy a cheaper player, or hum songs in your head.

ganryu
Jan 9, 2004, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde
I think the biggest disappointment with the pricing of the mini iPods is that we all want Apple to gain consumer mindshare and grow as a company, but Jobs and co. continue to market only to those with expendable income and a willingness to waste money on nonsense technology.

If I find out that a company I own stock for targets consumers with no expendable income (hence no money to buy any product), I'm going to sell my stock or make sure the CEO's gone by the end of the week.

northstar
Jan 9, 2004, 10:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ganryu
I do. I'm getting the mini for gym, and leaving my 15gig 3rd gen ipod in my car.

I make 82K a year, and after tax, I still manage to save 3K a month.

Sorry boy, but you can always get a better job.
----------------------------------------------

Did i miss something? Do those grow on trees these days? I feel it's necessary to alert you to the fact that a good portion of this forum is composed of college students, with barely enough cash for their tuition, much less another iPod. For us, the price is wrong, Steve.

ganryu
Jan 10, 2004, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by northstar
quote:
Originally posted by ganryu
I do. I'm getting the mini for gym, and leaving my 15gig 3rd gen ipod in my car.

I make 82K a year, and after tax, I still manage to save 3K a month.

Sorry boy, but you can always get a better job.
----------------------------------------------

Did i miss something? Do those grow on trees these days? I feel it's necessary to alert you to the fact that a good portion of this forum is composed of college students, with barely enough cash for their tuition, much less another iPod. For us, the price is wrong, Steve.

I'm 24, and I graduated from college the end of last summer.

But you know, as painful as it is as not being part of the target demographic of an awesome product, maybe you just need to face the facts, and Steve Jobs really isn't targetting the poor college student. Maybe he's targetting the more well off college students, or students that have parents that make enough to spend $249 on their kids.

There's R&D involved, and it takes a lot of money to recover the costs. If you can't afford to be an early adopter of a new product, then sit still while the volumes increase and the prices go down.

Edit:

15' Powerbook G4, 512 ram, backlit
keys, airport ext. (its a combo)
20 gig iPod!

Wow. Most "poor college students" I know certainly can't afford something like this. *snicker*

northstar
Jan 10, 2004, 08:18 AM
Please don't mistake my personal wealth for the generosity of my relatives.

lem0nayde
Jan 10, 2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by ganryu
No one really NEEDS anything, except for adequate food and shelter to keep them warm and alive. Apple, just like all companies, exist to make a profit, and they're not a community service.

If the price point is too high for you, you need to work harder and earn the money to buy it, but since you consider their products full of frivolous technology anyways, you might as well buy a cheaper player, or hum songs in your head.

First off, Bucko, I make over 80K and so I'm in the exact same demographic as you. The only difference between you and I is that I don't suffer from delusional Rich-Kid mentality, which causes those with money to become completely myopic to the reality that the rest of the world, by far and large, does not have the education or opportunity to make that much money.

I come from a lower middle class family and neighborhood and I have scratched and clawed my way through and out of poverty. My famiily still barely makes ends meet and they work HARD. Much harder then you, I'm sure. Some off them have two and three jobs just to make ends meet.

My point WAS, if you had bothered to get off your high horse and read carefully is that if Apple wants to spread itself widely - it should be targeting both those with expendable income flowing out of their tight little sphincters - and those who would like to buy something nice for themselves, but have to spend their money carefully.

The mini iPod was the perfect opportunity for them to do that - and they blew it.

Now, if Apple wasn't a company that constantly claimed it wanted more of a share of the computer market - then I wouldn't have even posted. But, they do. And with every company under the sun getting involved in the "digital music revolution" - including Walmart - Apple can kiss it's hold on the market goodbye. Because you best believe that those other companies will come in at a lower price and will get that huuuuuge percentage of Americans who can't earn what you and I do.

ganryu
Jan 10, 2004, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by northstar
Please don't mistake my personal wealth for the generosity of my relatives.

Precisely. The fact that you have relatives nice enough to plop down at least 2.5K worth of Apple hardware shows that there is someone buying them, even as gifts.

ganryu
Jan 10, 2004, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde
First off, Bucko, I make over 80K and so I'm in the exact same demographic as you. The only difference between you and I is that I don't suffer from delusional Rich-Kid mentality, which causes those with money to become completely myopic to the reality that the rest of the world, by far and large, does not have the education or opportunity to make that much money.

I come from a lower middle class family and neighborhood and I have scratched and clawed my way through and out of poverty. My famiily still barely makes ends meet and they work HARD. Much harder then you, I'm sure. Some off them have two and three jobs just to make ends meet.

My point WAS, if you had bothered to get off your high horse and read carefully is that if Apple wants to spread itself widely - it should be targeting both those with expendable income flowing out of their tight little sphincters - and those who would like to buy something nice for themselves, but have to spend their money carefully.

The mini iPod was the perfect opportunity for them to do that - and they blew it.

Now, if Apple wasn't a company that constantly claimed it wanted more of a share of the computer market - then I wouldn't have even posted. But, they do. And with every company under the sun getting involved in the "digital music revolution" - including Walmart - Apple can kiss it's hold on the market goodbye. Because you best believe that those other companies will come in at a lower price and will get that huuuuuge percentage of Americans who can't earn what you and I do.
Actually, the biggest difference between me and you is that you lack business and economic sense. Specifically, you have no concepts of supply and demand, the need to recoup R&D costs, economies of scale, and competitive pricing.

Supply and Demand: Apparently nobody even cared to figure out the price elasticity of iPods. $299-$499 is too expensive? Look again, 700K iPods were sold in the months of October to December, and there are 2 million iPods sold. The iPod was introduced in October 2001. That means in 2 years, they managed to sell around 1.3 million iPods, and in the next 3 months, the number of iPods sold increased by 50%. The fact that iPods were sold out everywhere also implies that there are people who still want to pay $300 or more for iPods, but they haven't yet. That being said, there are also people who "settled" for 40gig iPods when the lower priced iPods are sold out. "Settled" for a product that costs at least 100 bucks more! Do you even understand how steep the elasticity is for iPods? A 50 dollar price drop, including a size decrease, is going to do plenty for Apple's bottom line.

The need to recoup R&D costs/Economies of Scale: Did you even notice how the iPod Mini is a completely different product? Apple didn't slap on a smaller drive to the same iPod and set the price at $249. The amount of industrial engineering that goes into the Mini costs money, the research that pours into user interface design costs money (if it's free, then why does everyone else's interface sucks so much?), the new Hitachi 4 gig drives costs money, and companies always recoup the costs off early adopters. Afterwards, after economies of scale allows the cost of goods to go down, and after the R&D has been recouped, the price will drop. Case in point: the original iPod costed $399 for 5 gigs, and the current 3rd gen iPod costs $299 for 15 gigs. Every product makes their money this way, and always will (a very basic concept you need to understand if you want to keep your 80K job).

Competitive Pricing: Among all the whiners who complained Apple is ripping people off at $249 for the Mini, do you have any evidence that the cost could be lower while remaining profitable? This isn't the console gaming model where Microsoft and Sony can sell the consoles at a loss/break even price point, and make profit on the games. This is completely opposite, where Apple is making money on the hardware, with the songs barely breaking even for them. Just look at their direct competitor, the Rio Nitrus 4GB MP3 player, also sold at $249.

Maybe the $249 price has nothing to do with Apple being too greedy. Maybe it has to do with how Rio and Apple (and most companies with successful product lines) know how to price their product to not go out of business, while people like lem0nayde, who has got all giddy and happy when he took the rumored $200 price as fact, got upset and disappointed, and thinks he can run the company better than Steve Jobs.

svenas1
Jan 10, 2004, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde
The mini iPod was the perfect opportunity for them to do that [dominate the market] - and they blew it.


It's a bit early to say that, don't you think ? I find it hard to accurately predict the sales numbers of the minis - as much as I'd like to.

Plus, I don't see anyone else building cheaper 4 GB HD based mp3 players. I'm sure they'd love to dethrone the iPod.

svenas1
Jan 10, 2004, 08:57 PM
What about all those people who have iBooks w/ 20 GB discs ? Can you fill a 40 (or even a 20) GB iPod from those ? (honest question, as I don't know if you can 'refill' the iPod). Only talking about music here. I know you can use them as FW drives.

lem0nayde
Jan 11, 2004, 12:22 AM
Again, I'm not trying to run the company or implying that they should sell the current iPods for less. I am saying that Apple should look into putting some R&D money into making a cheaper iPod.

Who needed a flash based iPod?

Was anyone out there really saying "Man, I love the iPod but I wish it was a very little bit smaller and flash-based with far less capacity?"

I agree that the iPods sell well, and they are meant for an upscale market. That's why I see them constantly around NYC where I live. I'm not arguing that - I'm just saying if they can innovate something less expensive now - then iPod sales might explode in a way nobody can imagine.

For instance, as you say - the first gen 5GB iPod cost $399 when it came out, the third gen ipod costs $299 and has 15GB. So, now that Apple has caught up, and technology has leapfrogged itself - why doesn't Apple offer a 5GB iPod for $149. For the low end.

Thankfully my job doesn't rely on business and economic sense but I think I still see enough to know there is some opportunity there for Apple to broaden it's market.

Heck, I work with people who make 20 and 30K more than me, and still say the iPod is too expensive. I think it is just a matter of how important carrying around music is to you. I think it would be nice to have one, but it's not important enough for me to spend $300 on. I would rather put that into a new video card, or some software or some porn or something. :p

Anyway, we'll see where Apple takes this. I hope they make the right moves and stay on top of this new market. I'd hate to see them get left in the dust while others ride their innovations into the sunset. It wouldn't be the first time (or the second, or the third, or the fourth.)

amin
Jan 11, 2004, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by blueBomber
sigh... just when I was getting set in my ways of swearing off the mini as a failure, these pictures make me fall in love with the stupid thing.:p
I'm guessing that hundreds of thousands of people go through the same process. Strong work Apple!