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compuwar

macrumors 601
Original poster
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
I've been playing a bit with a cool raw converter, Raw Photo Processor:

http://www.raw-photo-processor.com/RPP/Overview.html

The film tonal curves and local contrast rock. After a couple of hours playing, I'm considering this as my main raw converter. In fact, I'm considering ditching Capture NX in my workflow completely. There are only a couple of issues so far, and I'm pretty-sure they're easily fixable.

B&W conversions look really good too.
 

GoCubsGo

macrumors Nehalem
Feb 19, 2005
35,741
153
Having used film more than digital I can say the film tonal curves are indeed amazing. I've been playing with this for the last couple of hours maybe and I am inthralled with the application. Not to mention it is free, but I will be donating later this evening.

The issues I think compuwar speaks of are the fact that you can quit and you're not asked if you want to save or anything. For me, I happen to accidently quit applications often. I've done it in the midst of writing long posts here as well. The second issue, which I can't say is an issue yet really, but it's a 'thing' is when outputting to a TIFF using any of the interpolation methods your TIFF file shows 72 dpi. Google groups has a support group for the company and they give a very easy to use terminal command to change the default output DPI. The problem is that when I did this I did not notice the actual file changing, only the number displayed. I wondered if it was actually changing the image to the camera's native dpi or was it just showing me what I wanted to see. The truth will be in the printing (once I buy more ink).

The developer actually apologizes for the UI, which I happen to be quite fond of. The mouse-overs actually say something of value rather than just telling me what tool I'm looking at. The auto-exposure has two options that both work rather well. I've never been a fan of auto-exposure, even in aperture, but this works well.

What I noticed was that my file in Aperture of the same image gave off an appearance of higher saturation and it was about 1/2 stop lighter. RPP discusses that ACR increases EV or decreases EV depending upon the camera. This is unavoidable. I believe Aperture followed suit and did the same. RPP does not. It gave me exactly what the image was and allowed me to adjust accordingly.

The downfall that I did notice was when I decided I wanted to do an HDR from a single raw. As many know I need to mess about with exposure and save various files. RPP will not touch your raw file. It never did and never let me save anything as a RAW file. It simply gave me the option of TIFF or JPEG. Some people apparently complained about not being able to output to PSD, but they have a great argument there, why PSD when TIFF is the same and keeps all the data?

Even though the program is free I believe that it is worthy of buying. Like Compuwar I believe this will become my new raw converter. I use Capture NX (free with my camera so no love loss) and Aperture. I've also used ACR and all the rest that I can think of. So far I really love the ease of use of RPP. One of the most enjoyable things is the fact that I can load up a RAW file FAST and get the same color accuracy and so on that I would if I loaded up the exact file. The only difference is you lose resolution, but I'm looking for something to work with my exposures and such, not check out whether or not it's sharp as a tack.
 

66217

Guest
Jan 30, 2006
1,604
0
What does this program offers in comparison with Aperture?

It seems to have some nice tools, but I don't see how this can be part of my workflow. Wouldn't using this programs mean that you would only use Aperture for organizing?
 

oblomow

macrumors 601
Apr 14, 2005
4,353
17,206
Netherlands
I've played with rpp, however I find it very slow compared to bibble. Therefore I settled on that and bought a bibblelite license. (slow on a MBP, C2D, 4GB)
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Original poster
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
What does this program offers in comparison with Aperture?

It seems to have some nice tools, but I don't see how this can be part of my workflow. Wouldn't using this programs mean that you would only use Aperture for organizing?

It offers either more accurate raw file conversion or more pleasing raw flle conversion (depending on your goals and aesthetics.)

I currently only use Aperture for organizing- Apertures 1.x raw conversion failed to do anywhere near as well as ACR, Bibble, or CaptureNX. Aperture 2.x is significantly better than 1.x. Now I have the option of either what seems to me to be the most controlable raw converter or the best looking raw converter- all in one program with very sane ways to apply changes to multiple files.

Currently, I use CaptureNX as my primary converter, and Bibble as a secondary converter if I need distortion correction for my Sigma 10-20mm.

After looking at the film tonal curves with AHD interpolation on several images, I'm convinced that RPP offers a distinct and unique set of advantages- and that's without looking for extreme examples where things like the white balance and highlight recovery might make more of a difference.

ACR's automatic "depending on the camera, we'll change the exposure and there's nothing you can do about it" seems to produce results that are comprable with Aperture's exposure values, so a more neutral starting point is good for accuracy in my book.
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,837
850
Location Location Location
I don't know if I fully understand this program, and how it would fit in.

Lets say I use Adobe Lightroom. I import my images into Lightroom, and instead of making non-destructive edits on my RAW files in Lightroom, I have to select RPP as my external editing program, kind of like how I'd use PS CS3 right now. Do I understand this correctly?

The only way to use this as my RAW converter would be to import my photos into a new folder, bring them into RRP and make some edits, and then export as a TIFF back into my folder. From there, I load those photos into Lightroom, where I can then make further (non-destructive) changes to my files if I wish.

Is this what you're doing?

I've had Capture NX since I got my D300, and I don't use it as my primary RAW converter. It's better, but I always liked importing everything into Aperture, sorting through the rubbish in there, and then editing the files I have kept using Lightroom, and then possibly in CS3 if I can't do something adequately in Lightroom, and if it's a really nice photo with the potential to be a lot better.
 

GoCubsGo

macrumors Nehalem
Feb 19, 2005
35,741
153
What does this program offers in comparison with Aperture?

It seems to have some nice tools, but I don't see how this can be part of my workflow. Wouldn't using this programs mean that you would only use Aperture for organizing?
I typically only use Aperture for organizing photos anyway. I have found that like ACR, Aperture actually enhances my photos for me before I get to touch them. However, I didn't realize this until I used RPP.

My workflow is quickly becoming, RPP > Aperture > PS if further adjustments are needed.

I don't know if I fully understand this program, and how it would fit in.

Lets say I use Adobe Lightroom. I import my images into Lightroom, and instead of making non-destructive edits on my RAW files in Lightroom, I have to select RPP as my external editing program, kind of like how I'd use PS CS3 right now. Do I understand this correctly?

The only way to use this as my RAW converter would be to import my photos into a new folder, bring them into RRP and make some edits, and then export as a TIFF back into my folder. From there, I load those photos into Aperture, where I can then make further (non-destructive) changes to my files if I wish.

Is this what you're doing?

I've had Capture NX since I got my D300, and I don't use it as my primary RAW converter. It's better, but I always liked importing everything into Aperture, sorting through the rubbish in there, and then editing the files I have kept using Lightroom, and then possibly in CS3 if I can't do something adequately in Lightroom, and if it's a really nice photo with the potential to be a lot better.

I find it confusing myself that you would use Aperture and Lightroom. Both, in my opinion, do virtually the same thing. RPP also does what Aperture and LR does, but I believe RPP does it better. If RPP had some sort of organizational tool setup with it then I would certainly move from Aperture to RPP in a heartbeat. Like you, I like sorting through the rubbish.

RPP does not touch the original file at all, like I said it doesn't even let me save over the existing NEF file nor save-as a new NEF file. So it does offer non-destructive raw file editing.

I believe that RPP fits but you have to mess about with it to determine how. Like stated before, for me it is RPP > Aperture > PS CS. However, to sort through everything I can see myself using Aperture > RPP > Aperture again > PS if necessary. RPP opens files so fast though that I can see myself using finder to just do a quick glance at the image, then open it in RPP.


Now I e-mailed the guy who created this and here is what he said:
jessica. said:
It would appear to me based on file size alone that changing the resolution in terminal merely changes the number and doesn't utilize the resolution output from the camera. For me it is 240, so I changed the resolution and found no noticeable difference except the image showed 240 instead of 72. Does changing the resolution in terminal actually change the image?
RPP dude said:
This is just a convenience option and it doesn't change image - just DPI parameter in file, so you don't have to change it every time to your printer specific value.

We also discussed the fact that ACR and I believe Aperture changes the exposure for you prior to you touching the file yourself. He said that for the D3 in ACR the EV is changed to over one full stop. That is huge!

On a final note, to those who have tried and are curious about the difference between AHD and VNG, I said to him that I believe AHD was better, it produced a cleaner image. He said,
In general AHD is better, VNG smoother, but produces color artifacts. Half is mostly for web or speed or small prints.
So for me, me saying AHD is smoother is most likely a displaced view as smoother comes from VNG but less artifacts comes from AHD. In other words, it's semantics, but if you're converting to B&W then I would say AHD is your best bet. Again, you have to try it yourself to find out.

Abstract said:
The only way to use this as my RAW converter would be to import my photos into a new folder, bring them into RRP and make some edits, and then export as a TIFF back into my folder. From there, I load those photos into Aperture, where I can then make further (non-destructive) changes to my files if I wish.

Is this what you're doing?
Yes right now I am but like I said, I can see it going a few ways. For me, I've never been fully sold on the raw processing in Aperture, but I liked it much better than ACR. Now that I see what Aperture does before I get at my own image, I can go either way, but I like RPP right now as I shot some difficult scenes in Chicago (bright skies dark buildings) and I find RPP is handling them like a champ. I've also shown results to Compuwar, comparisons between Aperture's output and RPP's. He too noticed in one shot I had more black detail from RPP then Aperture. While Aperture had lots of detail, the difference between the two was great enough to see even after sending a low-quality JPEG screen shot.
 

Everythingisnt

macrumors 6502a
Jan 16, 2008
743
0
Vancouver
Hmm, not entirely sold on this..

For film simulation, Exposure 2 blows this out of the water (albeit it is $249 US)..

I can't really see this being part of my workflow. Aperture and PS handle any tricky conversions I need..
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,837
850
Location Location Location
I find it confusing myself that you would use Aperture and Lightroom.

That's because I wrote Aperture when I really meant Lightroom. I normally import into Lightroom, delete the garbage, edit in Lightroom, and if I want to, export to Photoshop as a TIFF file and edit.

RPP does not touch the original file at all, like I said it doesn't even let me save over the existing NEF file nor save-as a new NEF file. So it does offer non-destructive raw file editing.

I don't think you can save as an NEF file anyway, not using any software that has been mentioned so far. :confused: Edits are made to image files, which is why the edits you make in Aperture aren't actually applied until after you export........(which is why editing in Aperture is called "non-destructive"). RPP doesn't really offer non-destructive editing in the manner that most people mean when they say "non-destructive". Unless RPP is also a browser, it won't be able to save the edits as a separate file, and apply the edits only whenever you want to export that photo as a JPEG/TIFF/etc. What RPP likely does is convert the NEF file into a TIFF first, and let you make changes to the TIFF, while the RAW file is just there in its original location. You get 2 files......one RAW, and one image file with edits. Or it's possible that the edits are "saved" (temporarily) like they are in Lightroom and Aperture, and when you're finished with the file and ready to bring it back to Lightroom, the NEF file is THEN converted into a TIFF with the edits applied. That way, you don't make a bunch of individual changes to a TIFF file, and therefore, you don't have to save the file after an edit, re-save, and saved again and again before finishing. That's the opposite of non-destructive editing!

Like stated before, for me it is RPP > Aperture > PS CS. However, to sort through everything I can see myself using Aperture > RPP > Aperture again > PS if necessary.

Yeah, the process you mentioned (the one you're using now) is the one I described in my previous post (without the mistake). The 2nd process you mention wouldn't take advantage of RPP's supposedly better RAW conversion, so there's no point.
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,584
1,700
Redondo Beach, California
What does this program offers in comparison with Aperture?

It seems to have some nice tools, but I don't see how this can be part of my workflow. Wouldn't using this programs mean that you would only use Aperture for organizing?

I think you are correct. Compuwar said
I'm considering ditching Capture NX

So he is comparing this to NX which is a fair oranges to oranges comparison.

But Aperture does this kind of stuff plus a lot more. In my case much of my work flow is JPG or TIFF based. I'm scanning film, some very old prints and shooting with a DSLR and a point and shoot. It's really nice that Aperture handle all of this well.

One other thing. When you compare raw processors it's not fair to perform the same operations in each. What you have to do is do your best effort to create the image you want using each using whatever controls are available in each and then compare results. Aperure now has plug ins. Using any of those is fair

Also you may want to look at things like how long it takes you to process 200 images. This is governed mostly by the design of the user interface not the raw conversion engine. Aperure allows you to catalog, stack, and rate images at the same time as they are bebibng downloaded from the camera

One huge different betreen this program and Aperure is that Aperure is non-destructive. It does not "convert" the image. It keeps it in raw form until you export it.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Original poster
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
I don't know if I fully understand this program, and how it would fit in.
It's the darkroom step of film development, prior to the darkroom step of film printing in traditional terms. It's a raw converter, getting you from a raw file to an editable file with very interesting controls and characteristics that you simply don't get in other tools, done by someone who really knows what they're doing.

Lets say I use Adobe Lightroom. I import my images into Lightroom, and instead of making non-destructive edits on my RAW files in Lightroom, I have to select RPP as my external editing program, kind of like how I'd use PS CS3 right now. Do I understand this correctly?

Here's what I'd do-

Save the original NEF file in Aperture or on my backup media, do the raw conversion, then import the raw conversion into Aperture so that I have a copy of the original file, then one of the best RAW conversion possible. At that point, do any edits in PS and carry on as usual. The issue with using LR or PS to do the raw conversion is that you (a) get Adobe's view of exposure, (b) don't have as much control and (c) don't get the best starting point for editing.

The only way to use this as my RAW converter would be to import my photos into a new folder, bring them into RRP and make some edits, and then export as a TIFF back into my folder. From there, I load those photos into Lightroom, where I can then make further (non-destructive) changes to my files if I wish.

Is this what you're doing?

Pretty-much. Aperture 1.x and ACR do not produce the best raw conversions possible, so I was using NX for this step, now I'll likely be using RPP and taking advantage of its profiles and batch processing features to speed that part up.

Hmm, not entirely sold on this..

For film simulation, Exposure 2 blows this out of the water (albeit it is $249 US)..

I can't really see this being part of my workflow. Aperture and PS handle any tricky conversions I need..

It's not a full-on film simulator, it just has very pleasing tonal curves to give you the best starting point for any further manipulations. Aperture's conversions are *way* better than they used to be, but still not as good as NX. RPP seems to be as good- though I have yet to do a complete side-by-side comparison. ACR/PS/LR is ok quality-wise, but not anywhere near CaptureNX and their exposure futzing is annoying to me. The local contrast and autoexposure options in RPP really don't have analogs in other raw converters, but it's only a useful tool if you're willing to put another tool in your workflow or if you're replacing another raw converter in your workflow. I've played with half a dozen files and it's given me better results from those than anything I've used to date- in some images the difference in detail alone is worth it to me vs ACR.

In the past, I've spent serious time converting with LR, CS3, Lightzone, dcraw, Aperture, Bibble and Capture (4.x and NX.) I ended up with CS3, Aperture, Bibble Pro and CaptureNX as my "answer" to whatever I need to process and store.

I don't think you can save as an NEF file anyway, not using any software that has been mentioned so far. :confused: Edits are made to image files,

Capture NX allows saving to NEF.

"non-destructive"). RPP doesn't really offer non-destructive editing in the manner that most people mean when they say "non-destructive". Unless RPP is also a browser, it won't be able to save the edits as a separate file, and apply the edits only whenever you want to export that photo as a

It's non-destructive as it doesn't touch the original file, just like when you tell Aperture to leave the original file in its original directory. Actually, if you look at the history function in RPP it's pretty darned powerful for its simplicity, and it does indeed save edits in the history file as timestamped transactions. It also does recursive directory profiling if you want to quickly convert a series of images, as well as allows history saving and transactional changes. There's a lot hiding behind a minimalist interface- most likely because the author knows where all the functions are.

One huge different betreen this program and Aperure is that Aperure is non-destructive. It does not "convert" the image. It keeps it in raw form until you export it.

If you tell Aperture to not move the original file, the function looks pretty-much the same, but RPP seems like it's got a more sane minimalist (do it quickly) batch featureset.

It's important to remember that RPP is one of the most powerful raw converters I've seen to date, and in its current state it's hands-down faster than CaptureNX, the best raw file converter for Nikon files. I also think the monochrome conversion technique is interesting, but it's not something I'll use that often.

Lots of folks are happy with ACR and LR or CS3, the interface is quick, and you can do basic adjustments just fine- if that works for you and you're happy with it, then RPP probably isn't the right tool for you.

If you're used to trying to tweak your raw files to be the best possible image before you start any editing, then RPP is more than worth a look, and you'll be blown away if you read through the docs and look at what it's giving you in terms of control and features (the whitebal alone is awesome.)

If you don't like Adobe deciding to mess with your exposure because they're defaulting to the wrong way or you're trying to get more shadow detail out of stacked raws for HDR, then RPP may be a good choice- depends on your workflow.

Finally, RPP will let you call another tool when you close a file, so it's easy to integrate into a workflow as the primary raw converter.

If you're going to evaluate it, I seriously recommend going through the help menu's manual with an image open- it's easy to miss what it's capable of if you don't really look at the options and what they mean.
 

GoCubsGo

macrumors Nehalem
Feb 19, 2005
35,741
153
I think it is safe to say that RPP isn't going to be for everyone, and as the developer said to me this morning...I may very well grow to hate it.

RPP does:
Non-destructive editing of RAW files.
Exports to 8 and 16-bit TIFF (among other things)
Offers a quick and dirty view of your file without losing color accuracy (but losing resolution).
Offers better contrast control that keeps your blacks with as much detail as possible (local contrast vs overall contrast)
Better auto-exposure
Better white balance control than what is experienced with Aperture (look at the documentation and you'll see how this is achieved)
Individual camera model profiling.
Transactional editing (history with time stamps)
Batch processing

RPP Does not:

Offer any organizational tool that you see in Aperture/Lightroom
Save your adjustments in the NEF/RAW file
Ask if you want to save before you quit
Force you to buy it
No heavy photo-editing
No sign of auto enhancements/adjustments just by importing into the application
Doesn't save to PNG

I am sure the list can be added to and in time I may change my mind. But for now I am sold.

The fact is, as Compuwar said, if you're happy with what you have now great. I was and still am, but I just found another alternative that was quite impressive and suited my needs quite well. And the price is right. :D

Like I said, if RPP offered anything by way of organization then I would drop Aperture all together I think. I don't do a lot of post-processing, if only to fix my **** ups. :)
 
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