Silver-Zinc Batteries Coming in 2009

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

A company called ZPower (http://www.zpowerbattery.com/) announced (PDF) (http://www.zpowerbattery.com/pdf/IDF%20Fall%2008%20-%20Final.pdf) last week that they were demoing Silver-Zinc battery technology at the 2008 Intel Developer Forum.

Silver-Zinc is new technology for the consumer market which promises a higher energy density than existing Lithium Ion batteries. According to the company, Silver-Zinc can offer up to 40% more runtime than today's batteries. ZPower has been in the news before, with previous claims (http://video.gearlive.com/video/article/q108-ces-2008-video-zpower-silver-zinc-batteries/) that the first Silver-Zinc batteries would come to the market in summer of 2008. It seems that estimate has been pushed back to 2009 with new promises from the company that battery option will be rolled out "in a major notebook computer in 2009."

Aside from increased run-time, ZPower also claims that Silver-Zinc is safer and more environmentally safe. Silver-Zinc is said to be far more chemically stable than Lithium Ion which has had widely publicized problems with overheating and igniting. As well, 95% of battery elements are said to be recyclable with financial discounts offered to customers when they trade in their old Silver-Zinc batteries.

Existing laptop owners will be unable to take advantage of Silver-Zinc batteries when they arrive on the market. New laptops will have to be specially designed to handle the new batteries but can be "dual chemistry enabled" allowing them to use both Lithium Ion and Silver Zinc. Silver Zinc is expected to be initially offered as a premium upgrade option.

There's no reason to believe that Apple is the unidentified manufacturer, but as this technology matures, Apple would naturally have an interest in it for Mac notebooks as well as iPods and iPhones.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/08/22/silver-zinc-batteries-coming-in-2009/)

[Eidorian]

Battery technology has been pretty stagnant for some time. It's good to see electronics use less power along with more robust energy storage methods.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Soon our precious mobile Macs won't have such laughable battery life.

[WildCowboy]

Wonder what the price premium will be at launch...might not be pretty.

[carfac]

There's no reason to believe that Apple is the unidentified manufacturer...

No reason at all. Apple seems to get beat to new tech on their laptop line regularly, and seems rather loathe to add it until well after HP, Dell and others have been using it for 6 months or more. It WOULD be nice if Apple would step up quickly to new laptop tech... but that does not seem to be what they do in practice (Blu-Ray, LED, new chipsets, etc...)

Obviously, Jobs knows better what I need in a laptop than I do....

[SFStateStudent]

40%, dang, I would be happy with 10% increase...:D

[chopper dave]

I recall that the major sticking point with silver-zinc was they were only good for a dozen cycles, not even close to the 500+ needed for a consumer device. Has anyone read otherwise?

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I recall that the major sticking point with silver-zinc was they were only good for a dozen cycles, not even close to the 500+ needed for a consumer device. Has anyone read otherwise?

I assume they've been refining the technology enough that it will be ready for consumer use by the time it's released.

[JCC]

I recall that the major sticking point with silver-zinc was they were only good for a dozen cycles, not even close to the 500+ needed for a consumer device. Has anyone read otherwise?

According to wikipedia, they have "a long life and very high energy/weight ratio." That would imply that they're good for more than a dozen cycles. The main problem appears to be the cost of silver.

[Fleetwood Mac]

This is good news. Any push in the battery field is a good one. I'm hoping for better batteries not only for my computer, but in other ares such as in electric cars that are currently limited by old battery technology.

Hopefully they can work out the kinks and show us something.

[bigmc6000]

Ok - what am I missing here. Apple stopped using Lithium-Ion batteries a while ago and switched over to the more efficient Lithium-Polymer batteries. Why are they doing tests against the Lithium Ion battery that nobody uses anymore?

"...the energy density of Li-poly batteries is over 20% higher than that of a classical Li-ion battery..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_polymer

[bigmc6000]

This is good news. Any push in the battery field is a good one. I'm hoping for better batteries not only for my computer, but in other ares such as in electric cars that are currently limited by old battery technology.

Hopefully they can work out the kinks and show us something.

The new vehicles are actually running on Lithium-Ion batteries so they really aren't that far removed from what's being shoved into laptops (way, way, way better than Nickel-Cads) and they are having to sport a ton of them so it's just not economically efficient right now and that's the main reason the Volt is going to be 35k and the tesla is running about 100k.

[Mykbibby]

I actually really believe that Apple is the company. Whenever a big contract for something is signed, and the partner is unidentified, its usually Apple, but thats not the reason I believe that its Apple. It said "a major notebook computer", not a major notebook computer line. Apple has only three notebook options available, as opposed to other companies who have many more. Wouldn't it make sense for the company to be Apple? Also, Steve Jobs' obsession with having the best battery life would make Apple a top contender for this new technology.

Then again, its probably the fanboy in me getting a little too excited. I guess all my blogging about Apple has led me to believe it can't be anyone else. :rolleyes:

[kjs862]

Great news, bring it on!

[elppa]

If it was Apple, they wouldn't be talking about it.

[sparkleytone]

Whatever happened to the fuel cell technologies that were supposedly right around the corner 3 years ago?

[MrCrowbar]

Hell yea, 10 hours of Battery on Macbooks!
That's like 5 hours of real world use.

I don't get why Laptops would have to be redesigned though... maybe those batteries have to be charged differently. I know there were NiMh Batteries that you couldn't charge in normal chargers for some reason.

[Hattig]

If a large portion of the cost is the silver and the zinc, but these are fully recoverable (according to the PDF) during recycling, I would hope that there would be a recyling program that gave you back money or a sizeable rebate on a new Apple product.

I'm going out on a limb here, but guessing that the device will cost $500 for the battery, hence why it would be a premium product. If you could get $300 back from recycling, it would encourage recycling (and theft of such batteries) and reduce the up-front barrier.

Indeed if the number of charge cycles is still low (<200) then maybe battery exchange programs for recycling could be free - hand your old one in, get a fresh one, and the old one is recycled. That's the only way it would work in my mind, a 200 charge cycle battery isn't useful.

[popnfresh]

I noticed that the ZPower folks aren't talking about charge cycles. LiOn batteries typically can go 500 charge cycles and still retain 80% of their original capacity. I'm suspicious that Silver-Zinc batteries may not do nearly as well. We'd all love longer runtime, but if getting that means your battery loses 25% of its capacity after 100 charges, then who cares?

I want to see specs on charge cycles before I get excited about this technology.

[twoodcc]

sounds like a win-win for everyone (except maybe the price of these things). still, i am looking forward to better batteries

[CWallace]

Wonder what the price premium will be at launch...might not be pretty.

Likely won't matter for Apple, since Mac buyers are far more "price elastic" then Wintel buyers. And being more environmentally friendly would appeal to Apple's image and many Mac buyers.

[eidrunner247]

I think there are still too many unknowns out there. How long will the battery last? How much will it cost? It's supposed to last up to 40% longer than normal batteries, but is 40% only going to be for a select group of batteries (perhaps for small phone devices? or will this include laptops as well).

Sure, this is good news, but way too speculative. How did this make the front page?

[bug67]

Oooh. I want one in my Prius! Oh, and my MacBook Pro. Oh, and my iPhone. Oh, and my iPod too. :p

[8CoreWhore]

Wake me up when it can use the heat generated from my lap.

[bbplayer5]

<3 iphone batteries!

[pkoury]

Battery technology has been pretty stagnant for some time. It's good to see electronics use less power along with more robust energy storage methods.

I agree, its time some of these companies address the power issues. I would think it should be a bigger issue.

[Wingsy]

Apple just might be waiting for the nano-tech supercap, a capacitor that never wears out, charges in under 5 minutes, and has the same or better run-time as a Li-Ion. Oh yeah, and cheaper. They're getting close with this technology, but it's still a year or more away, best I recall.

[StrudelTurnover]

Exsqueeze me? Baking powder? We're still using metals in new batteries? What about the stunning breakthroughs on sugar-based reactions? Is that following up behind to replace the same level of power we can get from Alkaline cells?

[Fabiano]

I wonder where is the so expected Li-ion battery with silicon nanowires, I heard about that technology some time ago, but it is still under devlopment... They promissed it can hold 10 times more charge than the current Li-ion technology... really impressive, huh?

Look here: http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html

[Lesser Evets]

*sells Lithium stocks*
*sells Ion stocks*
*buys Zinc stocks*
*buys Silver stocks*

Kidding aside, I am surprised the battery technology hasn't leapt forward more in the past 5 years. It's excellent news, if it pans out. If they can improve 5% a year we would have some amazing devices within 10 years. Ultimately I would guess the technology would be well useful if it could go 12 hours full tilt without needing a charge, the downtime of the user at night being charge time for a device as well.

[GreyHare]

Ok - what am I missing here. Apple stopped using Lithium-Ion batteries a while ago and switched over to the more efficient Lithium-Polymer batteries. Why are they doing tests against the Lithium Ion battery that nobody uses anymore?

It makes their product look better. Marketing.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that there is a saying among us electrical engineers that a datasheet author can get twice the performance out of something than an engineer.

Whatever happened to the fuel cell technologies that were supposedly right around the corner 3 years ago?

Did they ever decide on a fuel? Last thing I heard was butane, just what I want in my lap or phone...

I agree, its time some of these companies address the power issues. I would think it should be a bigger issue.

In other news, Kontron still hasn't shipped us the Intel Atom nanoETXExpress demo board we ordered back in May. Seems they're having a hard time getting these Intel Atom processors. As of last week, they're saying maybe October. And then there's this Via Nano that's supposed to come out any time now...

... It's a bigger issue, the companies involved are just really bad at predicting the market.

Apple just might be waiting for the nano-tech supercap, a capacitor that never wears out, charges in under 5 minutes, and has the same or better run-time as a Li-Ion. Oh yeah, and cheaper. They're getting close with this technology, but it's still a year or more away, best I recall.

The main problems with capacitors are their charge leakage (i.e. self-discharge) and lower energy density and/or higher expense compared to batteries. I'm not betting that Apple will hold their breath for this right now.

Sugar-based cells... how are those not supposed to rot? Seriously, I'd like to know.

Back on topic, I'm not sure how silver-zinc is supposed to be better for disposal. (Face it, no matter what laws you pass, people still throw dead batteries in the trash.) Silver is a good poison. NASA uses it as an antibacterial clothing thread additive for astronaut uniforms since they can't do laundry in orbit.

[bigwig]

Charge cycles aren't the only issue. Does this battery technology have memory? Being memory-free was one of the big breakthroughs of Lithium battery technology.

[Sun Baked]

Wake me up when it can use the heat generated from my lap.

I don't think you are going to enjoy that plug in adapter unit. :eek:

[phatcat]

They'll be some explosive batteries!!

[Legolamb]

Oh goody, now I can be worried about someone stealing my battery (along with my copper wires and pipes). The cost is going to be the deal breaker in this.

[KingYaba]

Just add this to your Macbook Pro wish list along with Blu Ray and quad core CPU. ;)

[HiRez]

Just when we thought things were getting cheaper. Now $1000+ solid state hard drives, multi-thousand-dollar LED-backlit displays, and $500 batteries. I can't wait for "gold-plated organic SDXRAM" :rolleyes:

[alphaod]

I'm sure a third party will introduce this even if Apple doesn't.

[timonz]

Smaller more expensive batteries that maintain the standard short 5hr runtime.

[TalkAboutApple]

This should be a nice improvement until the Lithium-Sulfur packs hit the market...at first 200% more energy and eventually 500% better than Lipo.

[fleshman03]

Exsqueeze me? Baking powder? We're still using metals in new batteries? What about the stunning breakthroughs on sugar-based reactions? Is that following up behind to replace the same level of power we can get from Alkaline cells?

OMG, you can actually have your computer "print" out a cake. Count me in!

*sells Lithium stocks*
*sells Ion stocks*
*buys Zinc stocks*
*buys Silver stocks*

Kidding aside, I am surprised the battery technology hasn't leapt forward more in the past 5 years. It's excellent news, if it pans out. If they can improve 5% a year we would have some amazing devices within 10 years. Ultimately I would guess the technology would be well useful if it could go 12 hours full tilt without needing a charge, the downtime of the user at night being charge time for a device as well.

Buying stocks that revolve around silver and zinc wouldn't be too bad of an idea. If this tech proves out, then that would be on pretty penny.


On a side note, check out this article and video (http://news.cnet.com/8301-10787_3-10023859-60.html?tag=newsEditorsPicksArea.0).

I really do wonder what prices will be like. Maybe higher, maybe lower. Silver would be expensive though... I wonder if it would go higher than gold if we end up using it in our batteries.

[PVguy]

And experimental submarine from Way Back was using silver zinc batteries. They reportedly worked very well indeed, but were "not cheap".

Recycle value is going to be very good. People will steal the battery and leave the laptop. :-)

By the way, submarines (at least in my day) used 250 V DC power systems. The capacity for the lead acid batteries was 6500 amp hours. I don't know if the Navy was after more capacity in the same space, or the same capacity in less space. If silver zinc batteries could handle submarine service three decades ago, they should be able to handle a laptop.

[SiliconAddict]

So is it possible Apple will stop being so anal about not putting a hard drive in the touch and actually do it with such a battery to power it?

[macwall]

i would like lower heat rather than longer battery life

[winterspan]

Exsqueeze me? Baking powder? We're still using metals in new batteries? What about the stunning breakthroughs on sugar-based reactions? Is that following up behind to replace the same level of power we can get from Alkaline cells?

? Like a fuel cell running on glucose? Just like a hydrogen, methanol, or kerosene fuel cell, you would have to constantly replace the fuel either through a "Refill" from a large container or some type of trade-in container program. I don't think fuel cells will ever be competitive in the electronics "battery" market.

And experimental submarine from Way Back was using silver zinc batteries. They reportedly worked very well indeed, but were "not cheap". Recycle value is going to be very good. People will steal the battery and leave the laptop. :-)

Yeah, the fundamental technology is certainly not new. I believe the reason why you didn't see them in electronics was that they just couldn't compete with other technologies (fit for consumer electronics, not naval applications) until some recent engineering breakthroughs.

*sells Lithium stocks* *sells Ion stocks* *buys Zinc stocks* *buys Silver stocks*

Let me know where I can trade "Ions" on the commodity markets will you?

So is it possible Apple will stop being so anal about not putting a hard drive in the touch and actually do it with such a battery to power it?

That's a waste of time, especially considering all the downsides. With the crazy market of NAND flash, They'll have a 128GB Touch in no time.

[n8236]

..........ya, silver is gonna be $$$ :D

[BlueRevolution]

Meh, I get easily 6 hours of life out of my iBook, 5 with wireless on. I'm happy enough with that...

[fleshman03]

Let me know where I can trade "Ions" on the commodity markets will you?


Sure. On the NYSE (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=IION.PK). You can pick those babies up cheap.

Ok, I'm done with the useless, but funny post. :D

[ncbill]

You mean inelastic (price doesn't matter as much to Mac buyers)

Likely won't matter for Apple, since Mac buyers are far more "price elastic" then Wintel buyers. And being more environmentally friendly would appeal to Apple's image and many Mac buyers.

[lamadude]

For some reason, I sold all the stock that I had 3 years ago and put everything into silver. The investment has worked out great so far though there are some disadvantages (I had to pay VAT on the silver and physically store it in a bank) but since the value of silver has more than doubled in that time I'm not complaining.
So let's hope this new battery technology works out! :)

[Riemann Zeta]

Let me know where I can trade "Ions" on the commodity markets will you?
I was wondering the same thing. If anyone wants them, I've got a whole bunch of ions I can unload at rock bottom prices: some Na+, a little Ca++ and a whole lot of Cl-.

But any hoodly doodle, what is going to kill this company (other than the fact that their products are nothing but vaporware and have been for years) is the fact that their batteries are completely incompatible with current laptops. If people could buy these as drop-in upgrades, I could see them being very popular, but if they are only available on a couple of super-high end laptops and require expensive custom electronics...kiss of death.

I think lithium phosphate (LiFePO4) tech might be a good contender for a non-explosive replacement for Li-poly tech--it is more resistant to high temps, which is good, particularly for laptops with NVIDIA GPUs.

[BTW]

I recall that the major sticking point with silver-zinc was they were only good for a dozen cycles, not even close to the 500+ needed for a consumer device. Has anyone read otherwise?


I saw the CEO of the company on TV and he addressed that issue by saying that this technology has been in use for decades by NASA and they've just have refined and improved it for the consumer market. To me that would me that it will compete well with other technologies and probably meets the 500+ cycles.

This tech will definitely come at a premium at first so with no doubt it will be on high-end business grade laptops. I would expect to see this technology making its way into automotive soon as well. That's where the company call really make-up for their R&D costs.

Don't bet on seeing this battery technology in handheld devices for a few years from market release.

[gifford]

Obviously, Jobs knows better what I need in a laptop than I do....

He probably does.

[The Tall One]

Was superior battery technology not invented around 10 years ago only to be bought up my Exxon mobile or another gas company to smother any chance of competition:o with oil? If you were Exxon mobile, wouldn't you do that?

[maokh]

With the price of silver a concern, it makes you wonder if we just wont see batteries 40% smaller in size. I am also interested in charge/discharge rates, charging regimen, any "memory effects", etc.

Lithium is pretty kick ass. "Can has electron?" "Yes." "Okthx" ... you can just throw electrons at it without any worry.

In any case, near future lithium ion poly improvements could potentially reach 1000%. Even 1/20 of that claim would beat out a very expensive alternative. :rolleyes:

[Shasterball]

I just hope they have some longevity...

[demondgale]

I wonder how they will compare in size? will they get even smaller? how sweet would that be, smaller, and more capacity.
===================
james
Virginia Alcohol Addiction Treatment (http://www.*********************/virginia)

[winterspan]

Was superior battery technology not invented around 10 years ago only to be bought up my Exxon mobile or another gas company to smother any chance of competition:o with oil? If you were Exxon mobile, wouldn't you do that?

Not exactly.. And it was Chevron. They did own a significant share of an industrial company that had the patents for large form factor NiMH (nickel-metal hydride) batteries (think Prius and other first-gen hybrids), and they refused to license them for production for all but the largest of manufacturing runs. This created a situation where everyone from the individual hobbyist to start-up companies to major R&D corporations couldn't get their hands on the batteries to test and prototype hybrid systems. The only way you could get them would be to put in an enormous minimum order. This most likely had less to do with the low cost-efficiency of smaller production runs and more to do with plausible deniability from outside claims that they were withholding technology ("we will license it to anybody.. they just have to purchase a minimum order of 700 trillion units").

I believe Toyota finally got them to license it to them when they started developing the Prius. Regardless, although they are still used in Toyota hybrids among others, NiMH batteries are somewhat obsolete as new batteries based upon more advanced types of Lithium technology like Lithium-Nanophosphate (that doesn't explode thankfully) and others make their way into next-gen hybrid cars.

[yamabushi]

40%, dang, I would be happy with 10% increase...:D

Actually, both are right. 40% gain in energy by volume, 10% gain in energy by weight compared to lithium ion in the first demonstration battery. Charge cycle life is in the hundreds. There is expected room for dramatic improvement in both over time as the technology matures.

By the way, the size of the battery cell is fairly small. While multiple cells would be in a laptop battery, a single cell could fit in a larger cell phone or PDA. Of course other battery cell sizes are expected in the future.

They are also supposed to be nonflammable.

[iPhoneJoe]

it's about time a new battery technology came along

[kaiwai]

Was superior battery technology not invented around 10 years ago only to be bought up my Exxon mobile or another gas company to smother any chance of competition:o with oil? If you were Exxon mobile, wouldn't you do that?

Basically that is the one thing holding back an electric card - a light weight battery that can hold a tonne of power. If someone could create a battery that is light enough and on a single charge move a car 2,000km - that would basically make oil companies bankrupt overnight.

[carlgo]

Was superior battery technology not invented around 10 years ago only to be bought up my Exxon mobile or another gas company to smother any chance of competition:o with oil? If you were Exxon mobile, wouldn't you do that?

So Exxon wouldn't want to sell the electricity to charge the battery? How about gas for cars? Do they discourage fuel tanks to store their gas and want cars to trail 500 mile long gas hoses behind them? Batteries are just fuel tanks for electricity.

More likely that there is price-fixing and other collusion between the battery companies. The cost of even simple D cells and such is outrageous. I keep expecting to hear of some investigation.