Isn't it time for a hardware refresh?

[mtfield]

I have really been eyeing the apple tv for some time, but would like to see what apple is going to do with it to make it a bit more than a hobby... judging by some patent applications i've seen and some rumors floating around, it seems like 2nd gen :apple:tv could see some nice new features... but isn't it about time they push it out??? it's been just under 2 years since it was first announced, so it seems like it's due... right?

[paduck]

there is the Consumer Electronics Show in early January. Also a big Apple event - two good venues to announce an upgrade.

I wouldn't anticipate a huge design change though - probably tweaking and refinements. I would think the following would be on a short list though as they probably don't cost much (mainly software):

Larger hard drive (maybe a switch to SATA from IDE?)
Better power-saving mode
1080p output
Support for external USB hard drives
AVI and other format support (iTunes upgrade)
Better remote control
iPhone/Itouch remote interface improved/expanded for video

Bearing in mind that they need to keep the price point low, those are pretty easily achievable. Some are more philosophical for Apple than anything else.

If you want to start escalating the price:

Blueray DVD (but if Apple puts Blueray on their Macs, this would be redundant)
DVR capability - requires a built-in tuner as well
Keyboard interface (then why have a Mac Mini product line? oops, don't want that discussion!)
Better processor - is it really necessary?

Remember they have to keep this thing cheap. The iPhone/Itouch pricing will compress margins for iPods going forward. Good news there is that they are going to cream the competition in the MP3 market because no one can compete with them. That will boost the Apple brand and transfer into Mac sales and (maybe) the ATV in the video market.

[LeoFio]

I think the hardware is all set for awhile. Any updates can be done through software only via a download, so you don't need to worry about buying one now and having it be outdated.

Adding a DVD player/ blu-ray is not going to happen IMO, and I hope it doesn't. The Apple TV is not meant to be that kind of device. It is strictly a link between iTunes on your computer and your TV. Adding a DVD player/ DVR capabilities is going to complicate matters by trying to make the device into something it is not.

(I prefer stand alone devices that are good at the one thing they do. If Apple tries to throw a blu-ray player into the Apple TV and maintain the same price point, that player is going to be pretty lousy compared to the standalone units out there.)

A bigger HD is the only possibility, but it is unnecessary to most people due to streaming capabilities.

[mechasquid]

I really want an Apple TV, but i cant justify buying one, as i want to transfer my DVD collection, and i don't have a lot of DVD's at all, but i would fill the hard drive in an instant. I would LOVE to see an option for a TB-sized drive.

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I really want an Apple TV, but i cant justify buying one, as i want to transfer my DVD collection, and i don't have a lot of DVD's at all, but i would fill the hard drive in an instant. I would LOVE to see an option for a TB-sized drive.

You do understand that the size of the drive in :apple:TV is not that important. For example, I have a couple of terabytes of :apple:TV movies, but only the 40gb model of :apple:TV. The movies stream from the big hard drives hooked to the Mac and this works extremely well.

If you look deeper into these threads, you'll see a lot of people questioning owning the 160gb version for this same reason.

It seems that the principle deciding factor has little to do with the total storage of movies, and mostly to do with the total size of your photos and maybe your music collection. Some want both of these on the :apple:TV hard drive (I store my photos there myself). Everything else tends to stream very, very well.

BUT, if you absolutely do want more than the bigger drives available now, there are relatively easy hacks to go to 750gb- maybe more.

[mechasquid]

The issue for me is that my hard drive on my machine is near-to-full with work files and music, as well as an external. I just would love to see a bigger drive on the Apple TV so it's an all in one solution as such

[dmm219]

You do understand that the size of the drive in :apple:TV is not that important. For example, I have a couple of terabytes of :apple:TV movies, but only the 40gb model of :apple:TV. The movies stream from the big hard drives hooked to the Mac and this works extremely well.

If you look deeper into these threads, you'll see a lot of people questioning owning the 160gb version for this same reason.

It seems that the principle deciding factor has little to do with the total storage of movies, and mostly to do with the total size of your photos and maybe your music collection. Some want both of these on the :apple:TV hard drive (I store my photos there myself). Everything else tends to stream very, very well.

BUT, if you absolutely do want more than the bigger drives available now, there are relatively easy hacks to go to 750gb- maybe more.

I've seen this posted many times on these forums and its a near sided view at best. This set up assumes two very big ifs: 1. You already have a large HD in the house to stream from and 2. you already have a desktop which you don't mind leaving turned on with itunes running at every hour of every day.

The fact is, those are two killers for a lot of people. Not sure why tech heads don't get this. I personally, have a macbook, which will go to sleep when not in use...which kills itunes, which kills streaming...then i have to run to find my macbook and either plug it in or re-wake it...just so I can use my apple tv. Its a big headache for a lot of people.

I would say there is a far greater proportion of people out there who want nothing to do with streaming. They don't want the Apple TV relying on any computer for anything. They just want to turn it on when they sit on their couch, and have it work...with plenty of space for all their media and have it work, all the time.

this is why many people hold out on the apple tv. I personally will hold off until 1. they have a much larger hard drive or 2. they enable dedicated external harddrive support (wireless would be awesome).

[paduck]

I think dmm219 hits the nail on the head - why do you need a computer on 24/7 running iTunes to stream to your ATV? Wastes power and makes ATV less convenient. I want the kids to turn on ATV and watch their movies. I don't want them near my computer or DVDs. They have a bad track record of breaking things. I question why Apple installed an IDE drive in ATV. It certainly limits expansion and I can't believe it actually saves them money or gives design benefit to the product.

[iMacmatician]

I have really been eyeing the apple tv for some time, but would like to see what apple is going to do with it to make it a bit more than a hobby... judging by some patent applications i've seen and some rumors floating around, it seems like 2nd gen :apple:tv could see some nice new features... but isn't it about time they push it out??? it's been just under 2 years since it was first announced, so it seems like it's due... right?A lot of the Apple tv is software.

I can see an Atom update for the Apple tv. I can also see a bigger hard drive and higher resolution support (1920*1080).

[MattZani]

bigger hdd's or lower price....

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I've seen this posted many times on these forums and its a near sided view at best. This set up assumes two very big ifs: 1. You already have a large HD in the house to stream from and 2. you already have a desktop which you don't mind leaving turned on with itunes running at every hour of every day.

First, I would argue the near-sighted (that's sighted) bit easily.

If #1 applies, it will be much less expensive to add a big hard drive to an existing computer than to add a big hard drive to an :apple:TV. Adding a hard drive that can be bought from anywhere will cost a lot less than adding the same space that can only be bought from Apple (in a new, larger capacity :apple:TV).

And it would be impossible for Apple to get the size right anyway. 1Tb? 2? 4? 8? more? Any of these the right size?

Relative to #2, no you don't have to leave a computer running every hour of every day, unless you have people in your home that intend to watch :apple:TV every hour of every day. You can set up your computer to automatically run at the times of day when people may watch TV and save that energy. Or you can build all of this extra hardware inside an :apple:TV and waste that energy on that thing running.

Anyone can buy a used Mac for very little, and let it be the :apple:TV "server". Even an old laptop with a USB extender and a bunch of drives could be a low power, very high capacity feeder for :apple:TV as is- certainly costing a lot less than a new, massive capacity :apple:TV product.

That said, I appreciate the desire to have this box that can be :apple:TV with all the storage than anyone desires. While we're at it why don't we go ahead and cover the other wishes too:
-build in a blue ray drive
-multi-tuner DVR functionality
-cable card so that we can record shows without an antenna
-keyboard, mouse, "real" remote, OS X, Safari, HD ichat camera, etc.
-etc.

And there we have it... the perfect :apple:TV. Probably 18"w x 8" high by 15" deep (or maybe in a mini-tower box), a bit noisy for the home theater (going to need a number of fans to cool all that extra hardware down), and priced at just $1499-$1699 with the basic configuration of one 500gb hard drive- maybe as low as $2999 fully decked out with 8Tb etc.

That product would probably make the iphone lines seem quaint.

And then, the gripes would resume that it doesn't make coffee, or that it should have 12Tb of storage instead of 4 or 8, or, for that price, why doesn't it have ______? "I can buy a Mac Pro for that." And so on.

I'm with you in terms of wishing a little $200-$300 box could somehow offer enormous storage (and I would like some of these other wishes fulfilled too). But, the price is going to go up in proportion with how much more :apple:TV must become. If we could attach just 4 bare 1Tb drives to the existing one somehow, we add about 4X$200 to the price. Do you think Apple would sell enough 4Tb :apple:TVs for at least $1499 to justify its existence?

[macleod199]

The issue for me is that my hard drive on my machine is near-to-full with work files and music, as well as an external. I just would love to see a bigger drive on the Apple TV so it's an all in one solution as such

The problem you'll have is that unless you're pretty careful about how/when you sync it, you're going to need to keep copies of everything on your ATV on your computer as well, anyway. I don't think there's any non-hack way to "add" stuff to your ATV without doing a sync, which means you can't just add stuff and then delete it from iTunes.

[paduck]

HobeSoundDaryl gives a good reason why the Apple TV should not be a Mac Mini. At the end of the day, it needs to be cheap.

However, I do disagree (at least a little) on the hard drive issue. Requiring a Mac, pulling down 200 watts to be on in order to run a 22 watt Apple TV makes absolutely no sense. There are several solutions, the easiest being the ability to add external USB drives to the Apple TV. Another is to at least open up the opportunity to larger drives via the SATA architecture where there are lots of hard drive options for really no more than Apple is charging now. 40GB seems a little on the anemic side to me, but clearly that allows them to keep the cost way down (a 40GB 2.5 inch IDE drive costs Apple about $30 now, certainly no more than $37, which is what they were paying last June - the 160GB version is twice that, so Apple likes to sell the bigger units).

The connection back to the iTunes computer for master storage will always be an issue though. At some point, you end up duplicating massive amounts of storage content. Some NAS devices today act as iTunes servers, just not for Apple TV. If that problem were solved, then you could have centralized network storage for your iTunes library which could serve multiple computers and your Apple TV. That makes sense from a network and storage position as well as the energy situation (NAS usually use about 30 watts if they have two drives).

As posted above, I don't see much in the way of hardware improvements that Apple can make without escalating the price (which they don't want to do since they are having trouble selling this product as it is). The best things they could do is enable the USB port, improve the remote, add AVI support (killer app, that) and add 1080p when appropriate for their content (although I don't know that 1080p drives sales any more than 720p).

[pmd]

I went into two department stores here in Melbourne last week to see whether the recent Australian price drop had been reflected in their prices.

Myer didn't have any AppleTVs at all, and the sales guy didn't know whether they'd been dropped, he just said that they were told not to expect any more stock.

In David Jones they didn't have the 40GB, only the 160GB. When I asked why the 'Apple representative' said that Apple are updating the product so they're waiting for the new model. They expect it some time before the end of the year.

[macwall]

i wish they would do a hardware update. a dvr style apple tv would be so awesome

[iMacmatician]

I went into two department stores here in Melbourne last week to see whether the recent Australian price drop had been reflected in their prices.

Myer didn't have any AppleTVs at all, and the sales guy didn't know whether they'd been dropped, he just said that they were told not to expect any more stock.

In David Jones they didn't have the 40GB, only the 160GB. When I asked why the 'Apple representative' said that Apple are updating the product so they're waiting for the new model. They expect it some time before the end of the year.At the September 9 Apple event??? I can see it tying into iTunes 8.

[spacepower7]

Best Buy was out of stock last week but now has new stock. I am also waiting for an update.

Wanting Quicktime X to have full CABAC and high profile support.

Also want Dynaflash and Caveman's current AppleTV settings :)

[TomP80]

Personally, I don't think we are going to see a hardware update any time soon - except for maybe a larger capacity model.

But, as others have said, the harddrive size on the ATV as we know it really is irrelavent.

As it stands, you can't use the ATV as a NAS server - if you ignore streaming and use only syncing, you still need to have a copy of your media on your mac or pc somewhere, as well as the copy that is synced onto the ATV.

I know there is a workaround for this by deleting the media reference out of itunes - but this is a surefire way of accidently deleting your media, if you ask me.

So, basically however big they make the internal HDD of the ATV, you have to match this disk space on your computer/externall HDD setup.

Now the obvious - if the ATV had a major hardware update that kept all current functions, but included a blue-ray drive/burner, twin-TV tuner and PVR software, it would be absolutely frickin awesome. No question.

But, there are two reasons why it is not going to happen:

1. Price - if apple did this (and still expected to make a profit), they would realistically have to price the ATV at >$1000 US dollars.

2. The big corporate picture. However comitted apple is to the ATV, it is not as comitted as it is to itunes.

They are trying to convice consumers to (1) move away from optical-media to digital media (2) convice consumers to PURCHASE their movies, music and TV shows from itunes - not from anyone else, and definately not for free.

Point (1) means no blue ray
Point (2) means no PVR/tv-tuner


Most of the other things on people's wishlists (external USB port access, 1080p output, larger variety of video fomat support, safari etc.)for the ATV should only require software upgrades.

[Cave Man]

Also want Dynaflash and Caveman's current AppleTV settings :)

For $500, it's yours. :)

[Cave Man]

If you look deeper into these threads, you'll see a lot of people questioning owning the 160gb version for this same reason.

Try streaming 720p video with Dolby Digital 5.1 audio.

BUT, if you absolutely do want more than the bigger drives available now, there are relatively easy hacks to go to 750gb- maybe more.

750gb is nice, but I know one lucky fellow with 1 TB Apple TV.

[paduck]

if Apple gives us a software update with 1080p, they almost have to do a hard drive upgrade for the larger files. Of course, how long does it take to send that over wireless? Even a 802.11n speeds?:)

[Cave Man]

if Apple gives us a software update with 1080p, they almost have to do a hard drive upgrade for the larger files. Of course, how long does it take to send that over wireless? Even a 802.11n speeds?:)

NVidia's specs on the video card says it does 1080i, but no mention of 1080p. (While the cpu does the decoding on Macs, I'm pretty confident that the Apple TV's decoding is done by the gpu. But that's just a WAG.) It also has built-in hardware acceleration for h.264.

Moving 6000 kbps 720p/DD over my AEBSn is pretty painful - and those are 6 gb files. The one 1080p video I have transcoded is almost 10 gb (and plays nicely on my Mac Mini, even with Quicktime). I'm sure streaming would be almost impossible without a dramatic increase in file compression without loss of VQ. In addition, you still have to decode it quickly enough in the ATV and move it at 24 fps. A daunting task for the ATV, I should think.

Big hard drives seem to be the most likely solution. Time for the ATV3 to have a SATA bus, instead of PATA. Maybe even an eSATA port, and just keep the internal drive for the OS, music, pics, etc.

[rw3]

I see them moving to a better decoder chip, something that is capable of doing 1080p. Also with the launch of the new low power Macbook Air spec processors, I also see a processor change. Who knows, they may even switch to an ATI GPU because of the fuse with nVidia offerings. SATA is a must if you ask me, 500GB from Samsung currently (most 160GB ATVs use a Samsung drive).

I definitely don't see a DVD/BluRay drive coming nor do I care if the AppleTV gets it.

1. HDD Size
2. Switch to SATA?
3. 1080p capable

Remember, Apple markets this with their iPod line, so Sept. 9th could get interesting....:)

[Tilpots]

Yes. It's overdue. One thing I keep coming back to is Apple's statement (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/07/21/apple-hints-at-a-product-transition-and-a-new-product-soon/) at the earnings release back in mid-July.

They said they're looking at creating "state of the art new products at prices their competitors can't match". They also mentioned they may take a hit in the pocketbook to get this out to the public.

If a TV tuner, DVR, and DVD/Blu-Ray player was added to the :apple:TV, I think it could make a great case for it being seen as an entirely new product. Jobs has always called it a hobby, and that he wanted to think of a better name for it. Slap some real TV functionality on their streaming media box and you've got a completely different beast.

They can certainly afford to subsidize it for a time while customers catch on. One box to rule them all. Bye bye DVD player, bye bye cable box, bye bye digital convertor box, bye bye Tivo. Welcome to Apple's newest living room revolution.

Make it able to surf the internet and it's the biggest game changer in the continual consolidation of electronics this millennia.

[Cave Man]

I see them moving to a better decoder chip, something that is capable of doing 1080p. Also with the launch of the new low power Macbook Air spec processors, I also see a processor change.

I doubt that happens because of (1) cost of the chip and (2) there's no need for it if the gpu is doing the decoding. I suspect the cpu is simply there to run the filesystem.

3. 1080p capable

Still have to address bandwidth/filesize/VQ. A decent 1080p movie is going to be in the 8-10 gb range, unless they come up with better compression algorithms (which would also require beefier gpu for decoding).

[ftaok]

snip

DVR capability - requires a built-in tuner as well



I've been thinking about this one. For the aTV to serve as a DVR, it doesn't necessarily need to have a tuner. In fact, having a tuner will basically be a waste for satellite users and digital cable users (assuming that the aTV wouldn't have CableCard).

The argument can be made that all the aTV would need to be a capable DVR would be component inputs, an IR blaster, and great software. The users own cable/sat box would serve as the tuner. The aTV software could handle the scheduling duties and send out a signal via the IR blaster to activate the cable/sat box.

To do all of this, the aTV would need a good analog to digital converter, preferably some sort of h264 encoding chip.

With all this said, I suspect this would be extremely unlikely to ever happen.

ft

[tronic72]

Personally, I don't think we are going to see a hardware update any time soon - except for maybe a larger capacity model.

But, as others have said, the harddrive size on the ATV as we know it really is irrelavent.

As it stands, you can't use the ATV as a NAS server - if you ignore streaming and use only syncing, you still need to have a copy of your media on your mac or pc somewhere, as well as the copy that is synced onto the ATV.

I know there is a workaround for this by deleting the media reference out of itunes - but this is a surefire way of accidently deleting your media, if you ask me.

So, basically however big they make the internal HDD of the ATV, you have to match this disk space on your computer/externall HDD setup.

Now the obvious - if the ATV had a major hardware update that kept all current functions, but included a blue-ray drive/burner, twin-TV tuner and PVR software, it would be absolutely frickin awesome. No question.

But, there are two reasons why it is not going to happen:

1. Price - if apple did this (and still expected to make a profit), they would realistically have to price the ATV at >$1000 US dollars.

2. The big corporate picture. However comitted apple is to the ATV, it is not as comitted as it is to itunes.

They are trying to convice consumers to (1) move away from optical-media to digital media (2) convice consumers to PURCHASE their movies, music and TV shows from itunes - not from anyone else, and definately not for free.

Point (1) means no blue ray
Point (2) means no PVR/tv-tuner


Most of the other things on people's wishlists (external USB port access, 1080p output, larger variety of video fomat support, safari etc.)for the ATV should only require software upgrades.

You are right on the money.

The ATV is already too pricey for what it is. Let's face it, although I love my ATV, it's just a conduit for getting stuff from your Mac to your TV. That's it!

Give it 12 months, if the product becomes as successful as the iPod, the high volume will allow apple to continue development. The Apple TV could still be a flop for Apple. It is yet to have the same sort of success as the iPod and iPhone.

my 2c

[zedsdead]

Apple needs to do one of two things:

(1) Add a DVD drive, or
(2) Negotiate with the studios to allow direct DVD ripping into iTunes

Most people will never deal with the Handbrake method, and Apple will never create a mass appeal unless people can easily still watch their DVD's. That means either directly through the Apple TV, or through importing via iTunes (which better involve the new Anamorphic Settings & 5.1 DD).

1080p is not important for making the Apple TV sell on a much larger scale, but it would be a nice addition.

DVR would also help greatly, and would be a nice replacement for my EyeTV.

[Tilpots]

I've been thinking about this one. For the aTV to serve as a DVR, it doesn't necessarily need to have a tuner. In fact, having a tuner will basically be a waste for satellite users and digital cable users (assuming that the aTV wouldn't have CableCard).

The argument can be made that all the aTV would need to be a capable DVR would be component inputs, an IR blaster, and great software. The users own cable/sat box would serve as the tuner. The aTV software could handle the scheduling duties and send out a signal via the IR blaster to activate the cable/sat box.



ft


I disagree. If the :apple:TV had a tuner, many people wouldn't need or want cable or satellite. Why pay a monthly subscription for the major networks when all you need is a TV tuner? don't forget in the US, the DTV switch is right around the corner and lots of people can get HD free over-the-air. Plus, most cable and satellite boxes already have built in DVRs.

[rw3]

I doubt that happens because of (1) cost of the chip and (2) there's no need for it if the gpu is doing the decoding. I suspect the cpu is simply there to run the filesystem.



Still have to address bandwidth/filesize/VQ. A decent 1080p movie is going to be in the 8-10 gb range, unless they come up with better compression algorithms (which would also require beefier gpu for decoding).

Valid on both point. +1 for you sir.

[ftaok]

I disagree. If the :apple:TV had a tuner, many people wouldn't need or want cable or satellite. Why pay a monthly subscription for the major networks when all you need is a TV tuner? don't forget in the US, the DTV switch is right around the corner and lots of people can get HD free over-the-air. Plus, most cable and satellite boxes already have built in DVRs.

In the USA, most folks get their TV service from either cable or satellite. I think the quoted number for OTA-only viewers is something like 15% or so ... for whatever reason.

The 2/09 transition isn't going to change that number. Maybe a few percentage points up or down. The bottom line is that most people get their TV service through cable/sat and will continue to do so in the future. You can't get cable channels using an antenna and Americans are hooked on cable channels. MNF was one of the top rated shows and crossed many major demographics, but that got moved to ESPN.

For the aTV to be a PVR, it would need to appeal to the masses and that means being useful for cable/sat viewers. For that to happen, there would need to be one of the following:

1. Component inputs to connect to the cable/sat box with IR Blaster to control the channel changing. The argument that most cable/sat boxes are DVRs is true, but if something like this existed, the user could rent a cheaper STB instead.

2. A standard tuner that works with both cable and satellite providers that can record all digital channels (i.e. HBO, TNT, ESPN, etc). Perhaps Tru2Way will help ... but I doubt it.

With all of this said, I don't think this will ever happen. It's too "icky icky" of a solution for Apple to mess around with. It's not elegant at all and probably would be a bear to set up.

A better option would be for Apple to open up the aTV to allow El Gato (or others) to access USB/FW/Ethernet TV tuners that are already available. Let El Gato port a version of EyeTV for the aTV that allows you to hook up the tuner right to the aTV's USB port.

I suspect that this would never happen as well. Honestly, the market for such a device (or option) just isn't there. People are very satisfied leasing the cable/sat DVRs for time shifting for $15/month or so. I don't think Apple would be able to succeed in this field. They'd be better off concentrating on beefing up the selections in the iTS so that HD shows are available sooner and more HD movies. 1280x720/24p is OK for now, but eventually, they need to provide 1080p media just to keep up with the cable company's offerings.

ft

[Tilpots]

In the USA, most folks get their TV service from either cable or satellite. I think the quoted number for OTA-only viewers is something like 15% or so ... for whatever reason.

The 2/09 transition isn't going to change that number. Maybe a few percentage points up or down. The bottom line is that most people get their TV service through cable/sat and will continue to do so in the future. You can't get cable channels using an antenna and Americans are hooked on cable channels. MNF was one of the top rated shows and crossed many major demographics, but that got moved to ESPN.

For the aTV to be a PVR, it would need to appeal to the masses and that means being useful for cable/sat viewers. For that to happen, there would need to be one of the following:

1. Component inputs to connect to the cable/sat box with IR Blaster to control the channel changing. The argument that most cable/sat boxes are DVRs is true, but if something like this existed, the user could rent a cheaper STB instead.

2. A standard tuner that works with both cable and satellite providers that can record all digital channels (i.e. HBO, TNT, ESPN, etc). Perhaps Tru2Way will help ... but I doubt it.

With all of this said, I don't think this will ever happen. It's too "icky icky" of a solution for Apple to mess around with. It's not elegant at all and probably would be a bear to set up.

A better option would be for Apple to open up the aTV to allow El Gato (or others) to access USB/FW/Ethernet TV tuners that are already available. Let El Gato port a version of EyeTV for the aTV that allows you to hook up the tuner right to the aTV's USB port.

I suspect that this would never happen as well. Honestly, the market for such a device (or option) just isn't there. People are very satisfied leasing the cable/sat DVRs for time shifting for $15/month or so. I don't think Apple would be able to succeed in this field. They'd be better off concentrating on beefing up the selections in the iTS so that HD shows are available sooner and more HD movies. 1280x720/24p is OK for now, but eventually, they need to provide 1080p media just to keep up with the cable company's offerings.

ft

iTunes is a la carte. Cable and satellite are not. Give the people the option, and they'll ditch cable and satellite in a heartbeat, especially if they can get the big networks for free in HD. Less cable audience means more content for iTunes. I've subscribed to cable for a looooong time and I hate them. If I could get what i needed elsewhere, I would and will. The live TV argument is an unkown currently, but it's an obstacle to overcome as technology progresses.

As you say, elgato's already doing the tv tuner and they seem pretty successful. Why would Apple not do the same. They're not big on licsensing, so why use a middle man.

Who knows, though? I'm not holding my breath til next Tuesday or the one after that, or the one after that... Just want better options for TV and movie delivery and content.

[dgalvan123]

I think apple TV is going to run into a problem with 1080p. Sure, they can enable 1080p output, but it's going to be a hassle to stream the 1080p movies from itunes or an external HD to the unit.

That's why I think it's in the apple-TV's interest to add a blu-ray / DVD drive.

One of the biggest advantages to disc media and watching DVD's is that there is no waiting and very little set up. Just pop in the disc and watch. You don't have to worry about video file formats, where to store the media, making sure the computer is not asleep and that it can see the external hard drive where you are storing that media, making sure your wireless router is working, leaving all that electronic equipment running. . . blah blah blah.

Put a disc player in apple TV and you can get around all that. And, for blu-ray, you eliminate the need to stream 10 GB of data over your wireless every time you want to watch a high-def movie.

As for those who say it would be "redundant" to add a blu-ray player to apple tv, since apple is rumored to be putting blu-ray players into the new macs anyway after the upcoming refresh; let me point out that apple TV is, in and of itself, redundant. It's just a way to get your video and music files from your computer to your TV. Set up your computer near your TV, or plug your laptop into your TV via AV cables, and you accomplish the same thing. Apple TV does not technically add any functionality that anyone with a computer, a TV, and AV cables doesn't already have. .. it just makes it more convenient. Apple should be capitalizing on their ability to make things convenient. Adding a blu-ray player would do that.

[alfredbot9000]

That said, I appreciate the desire to have this box that can be :apple:TV with all the storage than anyone desires. While we're at it why don't we go ahead and cover the other wishes too:
-build in a blue ray drive
-multi-tuner DVR functionality
-cable card so that we can record shows without an antenna
-keyboard, mouse, "real" remote, OS X, Safari, HD ichat camera, etc.
-etc.

And there we have it... the perfect :apple:TV. Probably 18"w x 8" high by 15" deep (or maybe in a mini-tower box), a bit noisy for the home theater (going to need a number of fans to cool all that extra hardware down), and priced at just $1499-$1699 with the basic configuration of one 500gb hard drive- maybe as low as $2999 fully decked out with 8Tb etc.

That product would probably make the iphone lines seem quaint.

And then, the gripes would resume that it doesn't make coffee, or that it should have 12Tb of storage instead of 4 or 8, or, for that price, why doesn't it have ______? "I can buy a Mac Pro for that." And so on.

I'm with you in terms of wishing a little $200-$300 box could somehow offer enormous storage (and I would like some of these other wishes fulfilled too). But, the price is going to go up in proportion with how much more :apple:TV must become. If we could attach just 4 bare 1Tb drives to the existing one somehow, we add about 4X$200 to the price. Do you think Apple would sell enough 4Tb :apple:TVs for at least $1499 to justify its existence?

WOW. Perfect response. You have just expressed how I feel when I see peoples wish lists for Apple devices and then their response to the price when they do add some of the features requested.

[TomP80]

That's why I think it's in the apple-TV's interest to add a blu-ray / DVD drive.

Your right - it is in ATV's interest to have a blue-ray drive. It would be cool.

But is it in APPLE'S interest? No. It would shoot itunes in the foot.

And I think apple wants itunes to be successfull a hell of a lot more than it wants the ATV to be successful.

I doubt Apple would be so short sighted as to spend the last 18 months convicing us all to switch from optical-based media to downloadable streaming digital media directly from itunes, and then go and stick a blue ray drive in its steaming i-tunes media box.

Corporate suicide.

[soLoredd]

I just want to see an update that enables external drives to be plugged in directly to the :apple:tv. That's it. Everything else is perfect the way it is. No DVR, no DVD/Blu-Ray.

You add those latter things and cost is just going to go up. And these things aren't exactly flying off shelves.

[Tilpots]

Your right - it is in ATV's interest to have a blue-ray drive. It would be cool.

But is it in APPLE'S interest? No. It would shoot itunes in the foot.

And I think apple wants itunes to be successfull a hell of a lot more than it wants the ATV to be successful.

I doubt Apple would be so short sighted as to spend the last 18 months convicing us all to switch from optical-based media to downloadable streaming digital media directly from itunes, and then go and stick a blue ray drive in its steaming i-tunes media box.

Corporate suicide.

Remember, it's called iTunes. Not iMedia. Not iMovies. Not anything like that. It was created to help sell iPods.

And corporate suicide? Last I heard, Apple makes much more money by selling hardware and software than Britney Spears.

[basesloaded190]

I just want to see an update that enables external drives to be plugged in directly to the :apple:tv. That's it. Everything else is perfect the way it is. No DVR, no DVD/Blu-Ray.

You add those latter things and cost is just going to go up. And these things aren't exactly flying off shelves.

I am with you on that. if i could store all my movies with out having to stream with only hooking up an external hdd i would buy one right away. right now im waiting for an update but if that's all it is, im sold

[TomP80]

Remember, it's called iTunes. Not iMedia. Not iMovies. Not anything like that. It was created to help sell iPods.

Yes.... and your point being????

iTunes has evolved into a complete media solution since its days as loading software for an ipod.

The actual name "itunes" has become such a recognisable brand, that it is, again, not a good corporate decision to rename it now - although something like iMedia is a lot better description of what the software actually does these days.

I'm still not sure what your point is though.


And corporate suicide? Last I heard, Apple makes much more money by selling hardware and software than Britney Spears.

Yes, but I would imagine they would like to continue doing so for many years to come - rather than shoot themselves in the foot now with bad corporate decisions that play into the hands of their competitors.

IBM were in a much stronger position 20 years ago, but they took some poor corporate decisions, and lost their market dominance.

Apple's whole corporate strategy is built around complete market domination. I don't think they are going to change that strategy any time soon.

They can see a future in 10 years time where all the media content you and everyone you know watch or listen to comes streaming from itunes, with a fee to them every time. They want iTunes to be the one and only one-stop-shop for your media.

The're not going to jepordise all of that by encouraging an alternative media delivery system just to please a few ATV tech heads.

[Tilpots]

Yes.... and your point being????

iTunes was made for music, not movies and TV.

iTunes has evolved into a complete media solution since its days as loading software for an ipod.

It plays an extremely limited file format set, plays zero physical media, and has a limited title selection, not to mention lack of gaming power, no 1080p support, no live TV... Complete media solution???

The actual name "itunes" has become such a recognisable brand, that it is, again, not a good corporate decision to rename it now - although something like iMedia is a lot better description of what the software actually does these days.

I'm still not sure what your point is though.

OK, one more try. iTunes was made for music, not movies. The iTunes solution isn't working as well for movies and TV so far. There are better options available.

Yes, but I would imagine they would like to continue doing so for many years to come - rather than shoot themselves in the foot now with bad corporate decisions that play into the hands of their competitors.

IBM were in a much stronger position 20 years ago, but they took some poor corporate decisions, and lost their market dominance.

Apple's whole corporate strategy is built around complete market domination. I don't think they are going to change that strategy any time soon.

They can see a future in 10 years time where all the media content you and everyone you know watch or listen to comes streaming from itunes, with a fee to them every time. They want iTunes to be the one and only one-stop-shop for your media.

The're not going to jepordise all of that by encouraging an alternative media delivery system just to please a few ATV tech heads.

They won't dominate the living room with inferior hardware. It's that simple. iTunes is worthless for movies and TV if most people aren't buying the hardware to watch it on.

[dgalvan123]

Your right - it is in ATV's interest to have a blue-ray drive. It would be cool.

But is it in APPLE'S interest? No. It would shoot itunes in the foot.

And I think apple wants itunes to be successfull a hell of a lot more than it wants the ATV to be successful.

I doubt Apple would be so short sighted as to spend the last 18 months convicing us all to switch from optical-based media to downloadable streaming digital media directly from itunes, and then go and stick a blue ray drive in its steaming i-tunes media box.

Corporate suicide.

Well, a blu-ray drive wouldn't shoot itunes in the foot, since there is currently no way to get 1080p content through itunes. Adding a Blu-ray drive that would enable 1080p on the ATV. So it would be an additional feature.

Also, if they're trying to move us to streaming media, that doesn't mean they wouldn't like us to load that media onto our hard drives or ATV's using discs. When I put a music CD into my mac, it's iTunes that opens and let's me play it or rip it. Why shouldn't I be able to do the same thing with a movie DVD? And why not just put such a drive in Apple TV, so that we can rip the movie and music straight to the ATV hard drive and avoid streaming if we want to.

I recognize that enabling external HDD support for the Apple TV would enable the same functionality, because I could rip a DVD on my mac, put it on the external HD, then hook up that external HD to my ATV, and watch it. But the average consumer doesn't want to deal with all that. They want to come home from work, plop down on the couch, and turn on their entertainment.

[dynaflash]

Well, a blu-ray drive wouldn't shoot itunes in the foot, since there is currently no way to get 1080p content through itunes.
Right, but up until atv2, there was no way to get 720p content through iTunes either.


Why shouldn't I be able to do the same thing with a movie DVD?

Simple, the studios and copyright. This has been beat to death. For whatever the reason the movie studios treat it different than the record labels. Do I agree ? No. But it is plain that that's how it is. Its a very old story.

This whole "why doesnt itunes just let us rip dvd's/blu-ray like we do our music" frankly is an old bone to chew on. Trust me, it's not likely to happen.

So, it only seems logical that apple's only other solution is to play ball as best they can and offer content via the best deal they can get with the studios.

No content, no atv. Period.

Now, before you go and say "yeah, but I can always use HandBrake to do the same thing iTunes *could* do" remember that the HandBrake Project and Apple, Inc. are two completely different situations. Basically its "apples and oranges .. or .. er, pineapples". ;)

[TomP80]

Well, a blu-ray drive wouldn't shoot itunes in the foot, since there is currently no way to get 1080p content through itunes. Adding a Blu-ray drive that would enable 1080p on the ATV. So it would be an additional feature.

As dynaflash pointed out, a much easier way of enabling 1080p in itunes is for apple to just release a new version of itunes that supports it - like they did with 720p.

The only question then is how to get 1080p output from the ATV. From my understanding, it is a bit ambiguous whether the GeForce Go 7300 graphics hardware in the ATV supports 1900x1080 resolution. If it does, then all we need is a software update - if not, and apple thinks 1080p is something worth having (debateable, given the file size issues which would possibly lead to streaming and syncing difficulties), then it will need a hardware update.

Also, if they're trying to move us to streaming media, that doesn't mean they wouldn't like us to load that media onto our hard drives or ATV's using discs. When I put a music CD into my mac, it's iTunes that opens and let's me play it or rip it. Why shouldn't I be able to do the same thing with a movie DVD? And why not just put such a drive in Apple TV, so that we can rip the movie and music straight to the ATV hard drive and avoid streaming if we want to.

As dynaflash also pointed out, there are studio issues involved - but there is also another issue.

I think that Apple allow you to rip music cds in itunes because at the time that ipods/itunes were released, that was pretty much the only (legal) way of getting music on to your ipod - legal digital media delivery wasn't around then. The itunes stores were either not established or in their infancy. So CD ripping was a feature that Apple really couldn't decide against having. And in later itunes releases, its not something they could take away because it didn't suit them.

For Movies/TV shows, its a different story - by the time that Apple started making video enabled devices, it had had so much success with digital delivery music (a lot more success than they expected) that they have decided that digital delivery through the itunes store was their method of choice for getting video content onto your ipod/iphone/ATV.

I think that Apple are actually quite happy at the stance the studios have taken on not allowing ripping of their DVD's/BlueRay's straight into itunes. That suits Apple just fine as it becomes a hell of a lot easier for them to sell downloadable video content through itunes when the method of transferring your DVD content into itunes compatible video is so complicated for the average user.

Apple actually have the best of both worlds on this - they can tell the consumers "hey - it's not us, it's the studios", while raking in the money from video downloads through the itunes store.