Arn has delivered upon the gamers! w00t!

[BaghdadBob]

Arn very coolnessly added the Mac Gaming topic to the main page sidebar. This means we will now see hot topics in this forum section on the main page! Hopefully this will increase traffic to our section and we can get all the gamers chattering a little more around here.

He did it for the fans :cool:

[Macmaniac]

Finally we may get more people:)

[BaghdadBob]

Precisely the plan. I know there's more freakin gamers on these boards than post in the games forums.

[Dont Hurt Me]

very cool arn, we have to remember there are a lot of macheads that think oh you want to game? your supposed to that on a pc, or xbox or whatever. Its almost like you should only use your mac for work. WRONG:D

[BaghdadBob]

I wasn't even aware of this division until a few weeks ago.

[ThomasJefferson]

You mean ... you can play games on a mac?
*avoids thrown pie*

[Gymnut]

Ah yes finally this forum gets the main page recognition it deserves. With the slew of games 04 should produce, this page can only grow. :D

[P-Worm]

Originally posted by Gymnut
Ah yes finally this forum gets the main page recognition it deserves. With the slew of games 04 should produce, this page can only grow. :D

This is true. The Mac gaming community is growing. Thanks for the space Arn.

P-Worm

[Dont Hurt Me]

people who have macs and arent gaming are missing out on the fun that their mac can give them. i almost feel sorry to all those people who have macs but say they dont game on them. its like having a car but never driving it.

[markjones05]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
people who have macs and arent gaming are missing out on the fun that their mac can give them. i almost feel sorry to all those people who have macs but say they dont game on them. its like having a car but never driving it.

Its like having a Viper but only being aloud to drive it in a parkinglot. Ive got this amzing computer but can't use it to the fullest capacity because of the poor game selection and poor ports to the mac. Blizzard is the only company who knows what they are doing as far as I am conserned.

[Dunepilot]

The quality of some of the recent ports concerns me, however.

'Medal of Honor: Spearhead' is virtually unplayable in single player on any mac I've tried it on - the coding just seems to be much much worse than it was for the original game (which ran well, apart from having some insane bugs when used with a dual G4 machine - i.e. on the level where you have to place the explosives on the Nebelwerfer rocket launchers in the big field, the Nebelwerfers NEVER blow up - the only way to get past this level on my powermac was to cheat. Anyway, I digress).

Why is Spearhead so badly ported? Can we expect more shoddy jobs like this? Having played Halo a lot recently, I'm a bit disappointed with how it handles the large outdoor scenes - it's fine handling loads of sprites on my dual 867 powermac with Radeon 9000 as long as it's indoors, but outdoors is a different story.

And then there's UT 2003. Again, very slow at times on quite minimal graphic settings. I know my machine is hardly cutting edge, but I've got over 700Mb of Ram, a 64 Mb graphics card and a decent dual proc setup. I know it's capable of more than some of these games currently allow, due to unoptimised code.

Does anyone have a list of games that are optimised for Dual proc, or for Altivec?

Sorry, have probably gone way off-topic :)

[CmdrLaForge]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
people who have macs and arent gaming are missing out on the fun that their mac can give them. i almost feel sorry to all those people who have macs but say they dont game on them. its like having a car but never driving it.

I never play games on my iBook G3 900MHz because there aren't any that would run smooth. Period.

[Dont Hurt Me]

This may be a little off target but if Apple was smart they would get somebody to create a stellar title from the ground up for mac only. written to take advantage of everything the mac can do rather then making us crappy ports with open gl as a afterthought. Is anybody home at Apple? this would be a excellent project for their fantastic software division. Steve where are you? oh yeah pushing those Mp3 players.:confused:

[BaghdadBob]

Uhhh, yeah......

As long as the majority of gaming companies are addicted to crack -- er, I mean DirectX we're pretty screwed over here.

And that is precisely their plan.

Don't worry, there are still powerhouses that give us love...id...Blizzard....Blizzidard...and uh...all those other ones.

Another problem is that PC gaming companies like self-fulfilling prophesies...Like "Oh, we took a long time with this because of the smaller market on the Mac side"

Well, you know ****ers, if you're going to give us a game 18 months after its out for the PC side and make it poorly we're not going to buy the piece of ****. Good excuse to give us the shaft the next time around, eh?

[MacsRgr8]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
This may be a little off target but if Apple was smart they would get somebody to create a stellar title from the ground up for mac only. written to take advantage of everything the mac can do rather then making us crappy ports with open gl as a afterthought. Is anybody home at Apple? this would be a excellent project for their fantastic software division. Steve where are you? oh yeah pushing those Mp3 players.:confused:

Bugdom?
Nanosaur?

:D

But, yeah.. I agree. Indeed, the Mac is absolutely not bad at OpenGL performance, it's just that many games are optimized for DirectX instead. OpenGL compatibility is usually a "port"...

Now, a PPC w/ Altivec optimized OpenGL only supported Half-Life 2 look alike, but even nicer.....

[Gymnut]

Yeah and what about Power Pete. ;)

[markjones05]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
This may be a little off target but if Apple was smart they would get somebody to create a stellar title from the ground up for mac only. written to take advantage of everything the mac can do rather then making us crappy ports with open gl as a afterthought. Is anybody home at Apple? this would be a excellent project for their fantastic software division. Steve where are you? oh yeah pushing those Mp3 players.:confused:

I'd go for that. Why can't they start making games specific to Apple like the consoles do. Like Halo for XBOX. No other console can run that game like XBOX can. If Apple started making games like that it would be great. And can you imagine how many switchers would start rolling in. I have so many friends who's sole reason for staying with Windows is because gaming for macs, well.....sucks. I think that there is a big number of teenagers who only have computers for AIM and online games. Why not try to get all those people? I don't get it. Apples mp3 players are the best... we already know that. Apples gaming is the worst. Doesn't it seem like they are focusing on the wrong thing to anyone else? They arn't going to get anymore switchers by going after the little 5 song mp3 players.

[BaghdadBob]

Look, I think its a little overboard to call Apple's gaming "the worst" because it implies you cannot have a good gaming life on a mac. That's quite simply not true, you just have less selection, and if you're into having what's hot, you have a strong chance of missing out. However you will have it sometimes, and you will run it better in many cases.

BUT the mac platform is not worthy of exclusives right now because most of the development money for a game goes into game design, graphics, level design, and sound, not programming. There are not enough users on the mac side. And before you go quoting the 10 million OS X user mark, I'm using OS X and I can't run games that came out over a year ago with enough success to buy them. Get the picture?

Macs are not gaming boxes because they can't upgrade with the times. With the speed of advancement slowing down right now, the next gen G5s should be worthy of most games for years to come unless Intel pulls a rabbit out their ass and has the same burst in processor advancement they had earlier in the millenium.

And don't go dissing the iPod. Like the iMac, the iPod is a huge cash-cow that puts apple back out there in the spotlight. I was just having a conversation today that with all the companies getting into Apple's corner, you are now seeing Apple everywhere. You know what I haven't heard in a long time? "Apple is going to be dead in five years anyway." I've heard a lot of things, but that crap has been shut up for a while. That takes away the stigma to switchers that they would be buying into a dying company. And when Apple's market share increases, so will the gaming support -- the speed is there.

So, in summary, Macs are not consoles, iPods are good for gaming on the Mac, and have patience. MS standards are taking a hit right now, and not the good kind of hit. The next couple of years may demonstratively show momentum back on the side of Neutral instead of Evil.

[Powerbook G5]

I have a few games on my PowerBook that I enjoy playing. My current favorite is Age of Mythology, but the quality of these ports bothers me as well. There are so many spots in the game where it tells me to refer to my "Windows documentation" when referring to a specific option or where I have to right click to do certain tasks when I just have one mouse button or where fonts don't show up properly and such. You'd think people like MacSoft would catch these things when someone who just installed the game and spent all of three minutes with it can catch mistake after mistake with the port.

[Shekky_ca]

lol this is the only section of these forums I read...

[Dunepilot]

Originally posted by markjones05
I'd go for that. Why can't they start making games specific to Apple like the consoles do. Like Halo for XBOX. No other console can run that game like XBOX can.

In the summer of 2000, I remember bringing my Powerbook G3 downstairs in my student house to show the Quicktime movie of an early version of Halo demonstrated at some to my PC-loving friends, causing a lot of jealousy for what was then intended to be a Mac and PC release, but it could very easily have done a Quake III and come out first for the Macintosh.

But no, M$ bought Bungie, a game company with a very strong historical affinity for the Mac OS, and therefore set gaming on the Mac back by several years, in order to prop up the X-Box with a decent game around the time of its release. It was a sad day for Mac gaming when that happened.

Here's what people expected of Halo for the Mac 4 years ago! this month!

http://www.macobserver.com/news/00/january/000107/bungiee3.shtml

So, it wasn't originally an X-Box game. What we really could do with is for another strong contender like Bungie to rise and actually bring people to the Mac like it did when it released the original Marathon, a game far superior to Doom, but specific to the Mac platform. A little jealousy among Windows/X-Box users goes a long way.[

[BaghdadBob]

I cry into my beer over the loss of Bungie to the mac gamers.

Actually, I've said so much on the subject already that I intentionally avoided going there. MS buying Bungie was a dagger, and they knew it. I heard that there was a rumor MS was going to buy Blizz. Do you know how screwed we would be then?!? It looks like instead they've decided to compete with Blizzards new cash-cow, WoW, by investig obscene amounts of money into Sigil to get them to make a blockbuster MMORPG. The hype machine is carefully churning over that game right now...getting guys from sites with large readership (FoH, GU Comics) showing them the game and telling them the NDA proibits from saying anything but "Gee, it looks really big and really pretty and good."

Oh well. They will lose eventually. One would hope....

[Flickta]

Originally posted by BaghdadBob

Macs are not gaming boxes because they can't upgrade with the times. With the speed of advancement slowing down right now, the next gen G5s should be worthy of most games for years to come unless Intel pulls a rabbit out their ass and has the same burst in processor advancement they had earlier in the millenium.

And don't go dissing the iPod. Like the iMac, the iPod is a huge cash-cow that puts apple back out there in the spotlight. I was just having a conversation today that with all the companies getting into Apple's corner, you are now seeing Apple everywhere. You know what I haven't heard in a long time? "Apple is going to be dead in five years anyway." I've heard a lot of things, but that crap has been shut up for a while. That takes away the stigma to switchers that they would be buying into a dying company. And when Apple's market share increases, so will the gaming support -- the speed is there.



Great! Let's hope it happens!

[Dreadnought]

Originally posted by markjones05
Its like having a Viper but only being aloud to drive it in a parkinglot. Ive got this amzing computer but can't use it to the fullest capacity because of the poor game selection and poor ports to the mac. Blizzard is the only company who knows what they are doing as far as I am conserned.

It will surprise you how much fun you can have on a parkinglot with a car, the handbrake in one hand and a pull on the steering wheel in the other hand. LOL! :D

A bit off topic so, Well done Arn. My compliments with the new layout of the site!

[BaghdadBob]

I didn't see the above -- actually, count on Doom 3 to be an awesome showcase of the power of the G5s. John Carmack is the most incredible game programmer in the world. And for some reason he really likes the mac.

Do you know that when Doom II was ported by Lionsoft it actually performed better on the Mac? I think that trend has continued with every Quake release (per processor speed). All the dual 2.0 GHz folks will be willy-waving at the PC users with their FPS -- it'll be great :D

[Dont Hurt Me]

I hope you are right but we still have not heard of any official confirmation that Doom3 is coming to Mac plus we know the deep pockets microsoft has and they have allready talked with id about a Xbox version.

[BaghdadBob]

¿¿Odd?? I'm quite sure we have, but of course the website is such a wealth of information right now... :rolleyes:

[aldo]

Ok guys, I've ranted and raved about this before and I don't really want to get dragged into it again.

But Gaming on a Mac sucks - there is no other description for it.

a) Bad, crappy, halfassed ports with B-A-D multiplayer support. Macsoft is the worst for this. Aspyr and Blizzard are far better.

b) Hardware prices, and lack of upgradability. Whereas pretty much any machine in Apple's lineup now can do word processing and internet browsing, very few can run games well. I'm not spending well over £1,600 on a gaming machine - the only reason I'd be buying a Powermac in the first place, when I can get a PC for £600 which will run nearly as well as it and will be upgradable for a long time.

Apple also couldn't care less about gaming. Have you seen a game ever mentioned at one of Job's keynotes for more than 2 seconds? No, me neither.

Most bit's of the Apple jigsaw are coming into place now, apart from gaming. This means many people who are heavy gamers won't buy one and will tell their friends and family (which is a big influence) not to buy one...

Also, as mentioned before, Apple really needs more marketshare to compete with this... if they had closer to 10% then many more games would start appearing...

[MacsRgr8]

Originally posted by aldo

Apple also couldn't care less about gaming. Have you seen a game ever mentioned at one of Job's keynotes for more than 2 seconds? No, me neither.

Most bit's of the Apple jigsaw are coming into place now, apart from gaming. This means many people who are heavy gamers won't buy one and will tell their friends and family (which is a big influence) not to buy one...


Yep. Agree.

I am lucky I have 2 good gaming Macs (Dual 1.8 GHz G5 Radeon 9800 OEM and Dual 1.25 GHz G4, 9800 Retail), but they cost a fortune. Whenever I have friends / family coming over, we usually end up playing games (funny... since I got the G5, I suddenly have more friends :D ).
Yes, they are impressed. But, if they ask about the price of these Macs, or if they can play GTA 3 or Colin McRae Rally etc, I disappoint them. These folks find gaming so important for a "house" PC, that a Mac (however beautifull they find them, and what a great OS Mac OS X is, and iLife is super etc.) is totally out of the question. Maybe as a second PC, but not the one and only family computer.
If only Apple would accept the fact that gaming is hugely important for a home / family computer.
For me personally, I find the availability of Mac games sufficient, except for the racing games.
Doom 3 is a MUST for Mac gaming, please, please, please.....

Steve are you listening?

BTW. The fact that MacRumors have a section specific for gaming must mean that this form of computer entertainment must be important, no?

[BaghdadBob]

I don't agree with either of you that Apple does not find gaming to be important. They worked very closely with the Unreal folks to make UT2K3 come off. And AFAIK they have given John Carmack as much info as they could on the G5 to make sure D3 on the Mac is immediate and a success.

Obviously there are disadvantages to owning a Mac for gaming. Lots.

But answer me this: what would you have Apple do?

[MacsRgr8]

Originally posted by BaghdadBob

But answer me this: what would you have Apple do?

"Push" a couple of developers... or at the least help them financially. I have no idea if Apple is or is not doing it now, but Apple doesn't show it.
Most games are DirectX games. Apple should try getting the OpenGL as a standard....
Are you sure Carmack has gotten this info? Why hasn't there been any serious public announcment that Doom 3 is coming to the Mac? AFAIK it's all speculation. Doom 3 will probably come to the Mac for varous reasons (biggest ofcourse the MacWorld Tokyo demo).

Apple has the hardware for gr8 gaming....
But not the developers.

Quote <claps his big sweaty hands in a rythm>: "Developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers..."
:D

[BaghdadBob]

I don't understand what's so hazy about the release of Doom 3 for the Mac. It is not speculation, it has been public for a long time. This is from a while ago (pre G5), but if you look you will find:

Mr. Carmack also confirmed that Doom III will be a MacOS X title:
"We do run a bit better on a high end Wintel system, but the Apple performance is still quite good, especially considering the short amount of time that the drivers had before the event.

It is still our intention to have a simultaneous release of the next product on Windows, MacOS-X, and Linux."
Let that be the end of that.

[job]

Originally posted by MacsRgr8
"Push" a couple of developers... or at the least help them financially. I have no idea if Apple is or is not doing it now, but Apple doesn't show it.
Most games are DirectX games. Apple should try getting the OpenGL as a standard....

OpenGL is a standard. DirectX is a proprietary API, far dissimilar than the open standards of OpenGL (no pun intended.)

We also have to consider that there are no 'real' Mac game developers. (Exceptions: Pangea Software and Ambrosia Software.) Most of the companies involved in the Mac gaming industry are either porting or publishing companies, not development houses. The Mac game market mainly consists of ported PC titles, not natively developed Mac software. And therein lies the problem, could a Mac game development studio survive when the Mac market is so small in comparison to the PC gaming world? We get games that survived in the PC world, if they flop in the Mac market (bad port, incompatablilites, etc.) it won't kill the development studio which planned the game for the Wintel market anyways. If a Mac dev. company has a game that flops on the Mac, due to the smaller market share (i.e. less people to buy it) and competition from the ported PC titles, will it survive like a PC focused studio would?

[MacsRgr8]

Originally posted by BaghdadBob

Let that be the end of that.

Allright. Lets hope this "intention" is a promise ;)

End.

Doom 3 is just one of the major releases. I was aslo thinking about Half Life 2, Collin McRae Rally, GTA, Need For Speed series, etc, etc.
F1 2000 was a DirectX game, and Feral has done their best to port it to OpenGL.
At 2002's MacWorld Paris I spoke to a guy working at Feral, when they were demoing the game. He told me that it was a hell of a job, and was hoping it would pay-off. Luckily they gambled, and we can play it now. But a couple of years ago Half-life was allmost finished, but pulled. Also Need For Speed Porsche 2000 was rumored.
If Apple had lend them a hand, I'm sure those games would have made it to the stores.

Sony and M$ are both doing their best to get hold of the gaming market (Sony bought the F1 rights), and M$ is trying to sell the XBox so cheap, that one has to buy an Xbox if you want a console.
So, gaming is big.
And maybe Apple doesn't want to get in the middle of things.... But there can be no harm in Apple helping developers who want to port a big-seller to the Mac platform.
One reason less to "must have a Windoze PC".

[MacsRgr8]

Originally posted by job
OpenGL is a standard. DirectX is a proprietary API, far dissimilar than the open standards of OpenGL (no pun intended.)

We also have to consider that there are no 'real' Mac game developers. (Exceptions: Pangea Software and Ambrosia Software.) Most of the companies involved in the Mac gaming industry are either porting or publishing companies, not development houses. The Mac game market mainly consists of ported PC titles, not natively developed Mac software. And therein lies the problem, could a Mac game development studio survive when the Mac market is so small in comparison to the PC gaming world? We get games that survived in the PC world, if they flop in the Mac market (bad port, incompatablilites, etc.) it won't kill the development studio which planned the game for the Wintel market anyways. If a Mac dev. company has a game that flops on the Mac, due to the smaller market share (i.e. less people to buy it) and competition from the ported PC titles, will it survive like a PC focused studio would?

Thats true.

OpenGL is a standard, yes. So is RTF.
But the world recognizes .DOC as a standard, and not RTF. So does the world see DirectX as the standard.
You are right, don't get me wrong.

You are also right about the developers. But that can make the situation easier. Well selling PC games could be ported to Mac, with a little help from Apple. Like the Feral F1 2000 example. Let the market determine if a game should be ported.