Wow, didn't take long for the Sarah Palin scandal to grow [Archive]

Thomas Veil

Aug 30, 2008, 03:23 PM

It's only Day 2 since Sarah Palin was announced as John McCain's running mate, and already the cracks are showing -- and they're not in Hillary Clinton's glass ceiling.

Fired official: Palin talked to me about ex-brother-in-law (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/51199.html)

ANCHORAGE — Alaska's former director of public safety claims that Gov. Sarah Palin, John McCain's pick to be vice president, personally talked to him on two occasions about a state highway patrol trooper who was locked in a bitter custody battle with the governor's sister.

In a phone conversation Friday night, Walt Monegan, who was Alaska's top cop until Palin fired him July 11, told the Anchorage Daily News that the governor also had e-mailed him two or three times about the trooper, Mike Wooten, who'd been married to Palin's sister.

Monegan claims his refusal to fire Wooten was a major reason that Palin dismissed him. Wooten had been suspended for five days previously, based largely on complaints that Palin's family had initiated before Palin became governor.

The events surrounding Monegan's dismissal currently are under investigation by the state's legislature. Palin has acknowledged that a member of her staff contacted a highway patrol supervisor in an effort to have Wooten dismissed and that her husband and other officials, including her chief of staff, made similar contacts.

She's insisted, however, that she did not authorize the contacts and was not aware of them until recently. She suspended one of her aides after a recording of his discussions of Wooten with a highway patrol lieutenant became public in mid July.

Monegan, however, said that Palin raised the subject of Wooten with him herself on two occasions after becoming governor — once on the phone soon after she took office and once in person not long after that.

Monegan also said that the governor's husband, Todd, who Monegan said he'd not known previously, talked to him several times about Wooten and that three top officials in her administration also contacted him.

...What role Palin played in seeking her ex-brother-in-law's dismissal is the governor's first brush with scandal in a political career that has been premised on reforming Alaska's corruption-plagued Republican party.

The controversy raises questions not only about her willingness to use her office to further a personal goal but also about her administrative abilities. Palin's replacement for Monegan, Chuck Kopp, was forced to resign just days after he was appointed because of a sexual harassment complaint that had been filed against him when he was the chief of police in Kenai, Alaska.

Palin, in a news conference announcing Kopp's resignation July 24, said she was unaware that the Kenai city council had reprimanded Kopp as a result of the complaint. She wouldn't discuss how her staff had vetted Kopp before naming him to replace Monegan three days after Monegan was fired.

...Before she was governor, Palin pushed for a trooper investigation of Wooten over a number of matters, including using a Taser on his stepson, illegally shooting a moose, and accusations of driving drunk. At one point, Palin and her husband hired a private investigator.

Troopers did investigate, and Wooten was suspended for 10 days, later reduced to five. That took care of it, Monegan said. But the Palin administration and Todd Palin wouldn't let go, he said.

Palin initially said that, after she took office in December 2006, she broached the subject of Wooten with Monegan just once, when they discussed her security detail. She said that she told Monegan that Wooten "had threatened to kill my dad and bring me down." She said she thought that was the end of it.

Monegan said Palin called him on his cell phone one night in January 2007 about Wooten, but it wasn't related to her security detail. He said he had already met with Todd Palin about Wooten, whom he hadn't heard of before, and had looked into the family's complaints only to learn they already had been investigated. Palin seemed frustrated that nothing more could be done, he said.

"For the record, no one ever said fire Wooten. Not the governor. Not Todd. Not any of the other staff," Monegan said Friday from Portland. "What they said directly was more along the lines of 'This isn't a person that we would want to be representing our state troopers.' "

Palin again brought up Wooten in February 2007 as she and Monegan were walking together to wish a state senator a happy birthday, Monegan said. He said he told Palin he had to keep her at arm's distance on the matter, and she agreed.

A Palin political rival, Andrew Halcro, was the first to publicly mention the Wooten matter in connection with Monegan. He titled his blog post: "Why Walt Monegan got fired: Palin's abuse of power."This Wooten guy sounds like a real character. Yet it's too bad for Palin that she didn't take Monegan's advice.

All of this just doesn't sound good, and certainly doesn't speak well for her "executive experience". (Remember?) More like someone whose office is a wee bit out of control.

Gonna be great fodder for the Democrats and the media. We haven't heard the last of this, I'm sure.

mactastic

Aug 30, 2008, 03:35 PM

A corrupt Alaskan Republican? I'm shocked I tells ya! :D

Ntombi

Aug 30, 2008, 03:47 PM

It's only Day 2 since Sarah Palin was announced as John McCain's running mate, and already the cracks are showing -- and they're not in Hillary Clinton's glass ceiling.

This Wooten guy sounds like a real character. Yet it's too bad for Palin that she didn't take Monegan's advice.

All of this just doesn't sound good, and certainly doesn't speak well for her "executive experience". (Remember?) More like someone whose office is a wee bit out of control.

Gonna be great fodder for the Democrats and the media. We haven't heard the last of this, I'm sure.I agree with you completely: Wooten sounds like a jackass who needs to be fired, but Palin shouldn't have been involved at all.

Between that, and her support of the "bridge to nowhere" before she changed her mind, that squeaky clean image is looking a little dingy already.

stubeeef

Aug 30, 2008, 03:58 PM

The part that is most telling to me..

"For the record, no one ever said fire Wooten. Not the governor. Not Todd. Not any of the other staff," Monegan said Friday from Portland. "What they said directly was more along the lines of 'This isn't a person that we would want to be representing our state troopers.' "

Palin again brought up Wooten in February 2007 as she and Monegan were walking together to wish a state senator a happy birthday, Monegan said. He said he told Palin he had to keep her at arm's distance on the matter, and she agreed.
I did the bolding.
While this doesn't look good, it isn't damning. If we knew more of the Rezko deal they maybe on the same lines of McCain and keating. At least Palin has welcomed and is cooperating with the investigation, unlike Obama and Rezko where lots of records are not available or released.

obeygiant

Aug 30, 2008, 10:49 PM

We haven't heard the last of this, I'm sure.

Of course we haven't. As long as you're on the watch. :)

As Palin's opponents keep digging in the mud I'll hazard a guess at the title of your next thread. Ah-hem...

"Yet another scandal involving Sarah Palin."

:D

Here are some goodies from Politico.com (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/13010.html).

The truth is, neither skeptics nor boosters really know all that much about Palin. Over the next 72 hours, whether she becomes a new star of the GOP or an albatross will be determined in large part by a wave of second- and third-day news coverage about McCain’s unexpected running mate.

Naturally, there will be the usual articles about her record in passing bills in Alaska and her positions on certain hot-button issues. But the inquiries that have the most potential to explode will delve into more sensitive terrain.

Based on the experience of several election cycles and (firsthand) knowledge of the professional habits and assumptions of the news business, here are five questions about Palin that reporters and editors will try to answer before she addresses the Republican National Convention in St. Paul, Minn., on Wednesday:

1. What’s in her passport?
The most intense doubts about Palin flow from a belief that the former mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, does not know enough to be an effective commander in chief.

How much her passport has been stamped does not necessarily speak to that. But if it turns out she has rarely traveled abroad — or has never been to any foreign country other than Canada — this will be seized upon instantly.

2. Who pays the bills?

This is a question that resonates especially with subjects who are not already on the national scene.

Most people who have been prominent on the Washington stage already faced extensive disclosure requirements and have seen or weathered financial controversies at close range. People who suddenly spring to fame, by contrast, are often unprepared for the onslaught of skeptical questions about their finances and business relationships.

Recall how the glow of history-making that accompanied Democrat Geraldine Ferraro’s selection as Walter Mondale’s running mate was soon overtaken by a furor over husband John Zaccaro’s business dealings.

3. Does she believe in evolution?

Palin was selected in part because she is a social conservative. And one complaint social conservatives have about the news media is largely true: Most reporters and editors are more secular in their outlook than the general public, according to a number of studies over the years.

4. What’s her family life like?

This is an especially sensitive one. But based on conversations with journalists, operatives and average voters, it is one that is on a lot of people’s minds: How does a mother of five children who are still at home, one of whom is an infant born with Down syndrome, plan to manage the demands of a national candidacy or the White House?

5. Has she been nice to people on the way up?

Big, nuanced biographical portraits of politicians take time. On the other hand, any good reporter can get a pretty fair quick sketch of a statehouse politician in a couple of days. Every one of the 50 state capitols has an in-crowd of legislators, political operatives and state reporters who love to gossip and are more than eager to share their thoughts with national reporters who ask: What’s your take on this person?

Whether the answers are favorable or damaging will depend less on Palin’s partisan leanings or her governing agenda than on how people who regularly deal with her find her at the personal level. Is she accessible to the press and does she answer questions straightforwardly? Is she vindictive to legislators who cross her? Does she have a sense of humor? Would you want to share a meal with her?

mattniles007

Aug 30, 2008, 11:04 PM

A corrupt Alaskan Republican? I'm shocked I tells ya! :D

Shocked:rolleyes:

it5five

Aug 31, 2008, 02:20 AM

Sun Baked

Aug 31, 2008, 02:30 AM

Wait, a scandal because her questions led to somebody who tasered a kid gets fired.

Where is the scandal, must be over letting someone like that stay on the force too long. :rolleyes:

seenew

Aug 31, 2008, 02:31 AM

is no one talking about her grandson, Trig?

That's a pretty big scandal, too..

edit: it5five beat me!

edit 2: just because you guys really need to read this

Yesterday, with the news of Sarah Louise Heath Palin inexplicably being chosen as a Vice-Presidential nominee, the attentive American public was also introduced to her character. Unfortunately for all of us, it was filled with multiple instances of backtracking and outright lies. While Alaskans had been giving her an 80% approval rating, recently 87% of Alaskans polled on the subject of TrooperGate believed she was lying.

Now, I've known liars in my life. Their single core problem is not with themselves, but those around them. If they're never called out on their twisting of truths and fabrications, they simply continue to make larger lies.

Well, Sarah, I'm calling you a liar. And not even a good one. Trig Paxson Van Palin is not your son. He is your grandson. The sooner you come forward with this revelation to the public, the better.

read the evidence and see the photos here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/30/121350/137

Ntombi

Aug 31, 2008, 02:38 AM

New controversy? (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/30/121350/137)

I couldn't say if I believe the above information or not, but it certainly won't be good for the McCain campaign if it turns out to be true.
I don't know if it's true, but if so, I'm not sure it would be a big loss for their campaign. They already have to have lost anyone who cares about abortion rights, and the hard-line pro-lifers have nowhere else to go. Plus, they could spin it as them protecting their daughter. I don't know.

Sun Baked

Aug 31, 2008, 02:40 AM

As long as the birth certificate is correct, who really should care about how a family wants to introduce the baby to the world.

Heck, they'd probably get more of the redneck vote with this revelation. :p

OutThere

Aug 31, 2008, 03:08 AM

New controversy? (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/30/121350/137)

I couldn't say if I believe the above information or not, but it certainly won't be good for the McCain campaign if it turns out to be true.

This made my night.

I have little doubt that it's true...the daughter is out for eight months with mono, Sarah flies eight hours after her water breaks and travels to a rural clinic to deliver her baby 4 weeks premature...too many things don't fit together.

And this is certainly not belly fat (I see belly fat every day at school on sorority girls who drink too much beer and wear tight clothes):
http://gov.state.ak.us/photos/PalinFamily_Outside_v01.jpg

If it's true faking a pregnancy is not only creepy as hell but requires spinning a huge web of lies and deception, and certainly makes abstinence only education look like a joke.

Ntombi

Aug 31, 2008, 03:30 AM

I think you meant to post this pic:

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/1113/6873504039standaloneprokr3.jpg

Yes, she definitely looks pregnant here, as opposed to

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9515/3073504041standaloneprovb5.jpg
(taken within days of the pic above)

And if anyone has ever known a woman who has been pregnant several times, you know that by the 3rd or 4th pregnancy, the woman's belly pops out early and just gets bigger, no matter how fit the woman is. This isn't about being thin or fit, it's about the fact that the stomach muscles and everything never quite go back to pre-pregnancy shape, so when there's pressure from within, the belly pops out.

Again, I'm not sure it will matter in the election, just my opinion that the theory has some legs.

Thomas Veil

Aug 31, 2008, 07:38 AM

Oh, this is rich! A second scandal, totally unrelated to the trooper thing. If it's true (and no disrespect to DailyKos, but I'd like to see it confirmed by the NYT or WP), then not only is her cred completely out the window, not only is the McCain campaign even more damaged, but Palin will ensure that only the third woman ever to run for high office (after Ferraro and Clinton) made a laughing stock of herself.

Gonna be reeeeal interesting from here to November.

Cleverboy

Aug 31, 2008, 08:09 AM

Going BACK to the first, verified scandal (if that's possible)... AMAZINGLY the vetting process was not very good for Mognehan's replacement.

http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2008/08/apparently-palin-is-as-bad-vetter-as-is.html
After Palin fired Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan on July 11, she replaced him with an appointee, Chuck Kopp [-SNIP-]. And two weeks late he resigned too! Why? Apparently an unvetted 2005 sexual harassment complaint! A news report read the details off in a string of embarrassing details, given the brewing storm:
http://www.adn.com/news/politics/story/475539.html
Kopp's decision to resign came after spending hours with the governor Friday. Thursday night, asked if he was considering stepping down, he said: "No, not at all. I've had an enormous outpouring of support from people across Alaska, from people down in Juneau right now, from people in the Anchorage Bowl area, from southwest Alaska in the Bristol Bay Borough and in the Lake and Peninsula Borough, and, of course, the Kenai Peninsula and Southeast Alaska. It's been a nonstop stream of support. I'm very encouraged. Things are going well at work."

"I'm positive and I'm encouraged," he said Thursday night.

Kopp came under increasing scrutiny from the governor after he acknowledged this week that a 2005 sexual harassment complaint while he was chief of Kenai Police resulted in a letter of reprimand from the city. The governor learned of the reprimand when the public did during a press conference that Kopp held Tuesday.

...Kopp and Palin entered the governor's conference room, read their statements, then departed three minutes later. Neither Kopp nor the governor would answer questions after reading from their prepared notes.

..."The recent media firestorm has been detrimental to the Department of Public Safety mission, the citizens of Alaska and my family," Kopp said. "While I have been portrayed in a negative light, my personal worth is found in the person of Jesus Christ, and not on the one who accepts or rejects me."

Said Palin: "This has been a tumultuous week in the Department of Public Safety, and as your governor, I apologize.

"This is in the best interest of Alaska at this point." Read about the handling though... some details to bug the CRAP out of you:
Palin did not say who she plans to put in the commissioner's post. Whoever it is will need to be confirmed by the Legislature.

The complainant in the Kenai sexual harassment case, a former assistant to Kopp, e-mailed the governor's office on July 13 that:

"My employment at Kenai Police Department ended after my sexual harassment complaint against Chief Kopp was acknowledged, validated, but ultimately dealt with ineffectively by the City of Kenai."

She offered to show her files.

No one from the governor's office contacted the woman, though, and Palin announced Kopp got the job the next day. Several days later, the woman called the governor's office asking officials again to look into it, she said. I'm betting that Kopp's personally affirmations of faith really made most in the administration, especially Palin... believe they were getting a white knight sent from God. People... next time, just do your job and realize no one needs to be given a pass.
Kopp said. "While I have been portrayed in a negative light, my personal worth is found in the person of Jesus Christ, and not on the one who accepts or rejects me."

~ CB

Thomas Veil

Aug 31, 2008, 10:00 AM

Well, that's why I said (at the beginning of the thread) that Palin gives the impression that her office is not in good control.

Re: the second scandal, I'm sure the major news outlets are working it.

Update: At least one blog (http://commentsfromleftfield.com/2008/08/who-is-the-mother-of-trig-paxon-van-palin) which wrote about this issue had a link to a photograph (http://gov.state.ak.us/photos.php) that showed a supposedly pregnant Palin looking not pregnant at all. You'll get a 404 when you click that link, because that photograph has since been taken down. In fact, from the URL it looks like all the photos were taken down. That doesn't look suspicious. ;)

Same blog has a picture of her (attachment, below) at what is said to be six months. You be the judge.

She offered to show her files.Talk about a straight line.....

Desertrat

Aug 31, 2008, 11:06 AM

Sure is lotsa "He said, she said," nonsense going on. E.g., a phone call for, "Hey, what's going on with....?" is indeed a "contact".

An Alaskan's view:

"Her income is low as gov's go, just over 80k. Todd's income is modest and his hours are long. These are NOT wealthy people, and the Mat-Su is a very rough area with extensive rural poverty.

Actually, Sarah is the only REAL person on either ticket. It's extremely rare to see that these days, and quite risky. The rest of the bunch are deep Washington insiders or in Obama's case part of a notorious urban machine."

And another's:

"The gov's mansion where she resides in Juneau is a modest place, and she doesn't own it of course.

Just walked by it the other day. You walk down Calhoun St. and there are houses along it, with driveways coming off the street, just plain ol' houses like anywhere in America. Then, one of them is the Governor's Mansion. There's no gate, no security, just a driveway off the street and a larger house with a bigger yard than the neighbors have. A small sign on the front door (a few yards off the sidewalk) says, "Private Residence. Please call XXX-XXXX for information on tours." That's all the "security" you see.

In the yard, there are some large trees. One of them has two homemade rope swings hanging from it. Instead of tires, they have rubber buoys tied onto them. There's a trampoline on the grass.

Then, as you walk up Calhoun, you come to the next driveway and the next plain old house.

This is a real family, and a real woman, in every sense, even in the Governor's Mansion. Reading through her bio, I am impressed with what she has done -- more than once, she's risked tossing away her political career on principle. It never seems that winning or personal ambition have come before her sense of right and wrong.

I live in a state with an incompetent, corrupt legislature, a Hollywood governor who has done a famous job playing a tough guy but doesn't seem to have real guts, where everyone seems to want to BS their way to more free stuff, and the idea of "principles" seems to be so 18th Century.

When I read about Sarah Palin, my first thought is, "Do people like this really exist in politics?"

Obama? Dime a dozen, and not worth that. The world seems full of people who cultivate an image, and who have behind-the-scenes people who have pushed them as the "next big thing." Reminds me of a pop star who is suddenly on the cover of every magazine -- everyone knows her name, but few people seem to even know any songs she sings.

But Sarah Palin? Whole different animal. So different, it seems that reporters don't even know what to do with her. Cognitive dissonance, big time, in their cynical world. And in mine, though I think that my reaction is probably the polar opposite.

I may not agree with her personal opinions on everything in the world, but that's not the point here. I hope she ends up in DC, and I think she's tough enough to take it. I just hope that it doesn't take too much out of her; she doesn't deserve that."

Of course the Alaska legislature is "investigating". She committed the unforgivable sin of being an outsider, and an honest one at that...

'Rat

quagmire

Aug 31, 2008, 11:28 AM

Mindflux

Aug 31, 2008, 11:33 AM

I think you meant to post this pic:

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/1113/6873504039standaloneprokr3.jpg

Oh please! Like you can tell from this picture? Her daughter in the green looks more pregnant than she does!

MacDawg

Aug 31, 2008, 11:39 AM

Anyway, on the topic at hand, so who thinks Palin gave McCain some sexual satisfaction to get picked to be his VP?

Kidding or not, that is really out of line...

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

leekohler

Aug 31, 2008, 11:42 AM

Oh please! Like you can tell from this picture? Her daughter in the green looks more pregnant than she does!

You're right! She does look preggers. Here comes another scandal! :D

TheAnswer

Aug 31, 2008, 11:43 AM

I'm not sure which is more creepy, the possibility that she faked the pregnancy or the possibility that she endangered the life of a premature baby by choosing to fly back to Alaska after her water broke.

The former suggests that she's a scheming liar that will do anything to protect her image and that of her family. The latter suggests that while she may be anti-abortion, she might have been willing to put some extra strain on her pregnancy to test if it really was God's will that it survive.

quagmire

Aug 31, 2008, 11:50 AM

Kidding or not, that is really out of line...

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

Yeah, it was. I apologize. Not one my best posts. :(

SactoGuy18

Aug 31, 2008, 12:22 PM

This is nothing compared to the people Senator Obama knew closely: Reverend Jeremiah Wright (you're taken aback by some of his sermons! :eek: ), William Ayers (unrepentant former member of the notorious Weathermen terrorist group), and Tony Rezko (long laundry list of really shady dealings and recently convicted by the Feds).

People are finding out and a lot of Democrats are starting to get buyer's remorse.

OutThere

Aug 31, 2008, 12:34 PM

EDIT: Didn't see the quotation marks in Desert's post.

Anyway, on the topic at hand, so who thinks Palin gave McCain some sexual satisfaction to get picked to be his VP? McCain only met her once for freaking sake. If all these scandals turn out to be true, it will make the Bill's lie about receiving oral in the oval office look like a little white lie.

That was in fact my first thought (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=6132458#post6132458) when I heard the announcement that McCain had picked Palin as his VP.

Oh please! Like you can tell from this picture? Her daughter in the green looks more pregnant than she does!

That's exactly the point...read the link to Daily Kos above. Her daughter was pregnant, not her.

MacDawg

Aug 31, 2008, 12:38 PM

That's exactly the point...read the link to Daily Kos above. Her daughter was pregnant, not her.

An allegation made by the Daily Kos... a notoriously liberal rag
Hardly proof of such a serious charge

If it is true, it will come out, but it has not been established as fact

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

Thanatoast

Aug 31, 2008, 12:41 PM

Okay, *if* the whole pregnancy-switch thing is true, that's pretty messed up. I was a youth councillor for a church when one of our girls found out that her sister was actually her mother. It messed up the whole family. Imagine being lied to your entire life by your family about something as basic as that. Bottom line, I didn't like her before, and if this is what's happening I definitely don't want to see someone more concerned with appearances than her daughter's and grand-daughter's mental health in power.

Mindflux

Aug 31, 2008, 12:41 PM

That's exactly the point...read the link to Daily Kos above. Her daughter was pregnant, not her.

This whole thread is talking about Sarah Palin being pregnant, not the daughter.

stubeeef

Aug 31, 2008, 12:43 PM

as I posted in another thread, if this is true, that she is the grandmother, I believe it is gameover>obama wins.
It is for one reason, she should have been vetted better. I have no problem with her attempt to protect her daughter, IF THIS IS TRUE. I do have a problem with the dishonest component. Bad things happen to good parents everyday, I know many that have mortgaged their retirements to help their kids out of bad and stupid spots. Still, this would need to have been vetted better IF TRUE.
If not true, kos should be shut down, pay billions in damages, yes BILLIONS. If you think that eluding to Obamas real muslim heritage is low ball, this will take the cake if not true. Especially the absolute calling her out and saying she is a "liar".
Someone is in trouble on this one, not sure who yet.
Obama has lots to answer to that he has not, hillary was mad as hell at the lack of documents he has produced, there could be a lot hiding there as well. Becareful throwing stones in glass houses, and that goes for both sides.

bobber205

Aug 31, 2008, 01:13 PM

leekohler

Aug 31, 2008, 01:14 PM

Delta608

Aug 31, 2008, 01:17 PM

I'll take Obama over McCain any day. I used to like McCain, but talk about a guy who can't commit to any issue! He changes his views more than people change their underwear. I seriously think that something has been mentally wrong with him for the last few years. I'm not saying that to be catty, I'm serious. I really don't want McCain's finger on the button. That is very frightening to me.

I would much rather have a guy that can change his mind, then a guy that wont tell you whats on his mind.....Hail Obama !! :p

Oh yea, your a towel....

leekohler

Aug 31, 2008, 01:24 PM

I would much rather have a guy that can change his mind, then a guy that wont tell you whats on his mind.....Hail Obama !! :p

Oh yea, your a towel....

Oh please give it a rest. This ridiculous rhetoric painting people who support Obama as some sort of guru is just silly. Everyone knows he's not perfect. Ever think that most of are just sick of how things have been for the last 8 years and just want the neocons gone? I can't take another 4-8 years of more failed Republican policy- none of us can.

And what exactly was your "towel" comment about? If it's what I think it was, then you need to grow up.

stubeeef

Aug 31, 2008, 01:27 PM

I'll take Obama over McCain any day. I used to like McCain, but talk about a guy who can't commit to any issue! He changes his views more than people change their underwear. I seriously think that something has been mentally wrong with him for the last few years. I'm not saying that to be catty, I'm serious. I really don't want McCain's finger on the button. That is very frightening to me.

lee. please, we all see what we want to see. sometimes when I look closely at McCain I wince, nearly always when I look at Obama I cringe (http://massdiscussion.blogspot.com/2008/06/collection-of-obama-flip-flops.html).

stubeeef

Aug 31, 2008, 01:31 PM

Looks like a alaskan website had pulled an article about how Palin "was pleased with Obama's energy plan".

Google Cache to the rescue! :D (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:wbCGTUeD1r0J:www.gov.state.ak.us/news.php%3Fid%3D1384+http://www.gov.state.ak.us/news.php%3Fid%3D1384&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us)

Interesting, she was pleased with part, I image she also wanted more but was astonished to hear of any domestic quest from dear bho.
from your link
The Governor did question the means to pay for Obama’s proposed rebate — a windfall profits tax on oil companies. In Alaska, the state’s resource valuation system, ACES, provides strong incentives for companies to re-invest their profits in new production.

“Windfall profits taxes alone prevent additional investment in domestic production. Without new supplies from American reserves, our dependency and addiction to foreign sources of oil will continue,” Governor Palin said.

yes lets tax Exxon from making so much money!!! Dam that profit.
Wanna know who else made a bundle from Exxon? Who made Billions but contributed little to the effort? Hmmm wonder who could have been the biggest profitier of Exxon....US Government intake machine (http://seekingalpha.com/article/63131-exxon-s-2007-tax-bill-30-billion)

Corporate profits receive a lot of media attention, but what receives considerably less attention are the corporate taxes paid on corporate profits. Do a Google search for "Exxon profits" and you'll get about 8,000 hits. Now try "Exxon taxes" and you'll get a little more than 300 hits. That's a ratio of about 33 to 1.

I'm pretty sure that Exxon's tax payment in 2007 of $30 billion (that's $30,000,000,000) is a record, exceeding the $28 billion it paid last year.

By the way, Exxon pays taxes at a rate of 41% on its taxable income!

[Update: The $40.6 billion and $39.5 billion figures are after-tax profits. For 2006, Exxon's EBT (earnings before tax) was $67.4 billion, it paid $27.9 billion in taxes (41.4% tax rate), and its NIAT (net income after tax), or profit, was $39.5 billion.]

leekohler

Aug 31, 2008, 01:31 PM

lee. please, we all see what we want to see. sometimes when I look closely at McCain I wince, nearly always when I look at Obama I cringe (http://massdiscussion.blogspot.com/2008/06/collection-of-obama-flip-flops.html).

Stu- you obviously haven't been around here much lately. I have repeatedly slammed Obama on a lot of issues. He has p***ed me off to no end quite a few times. But what it really comes down to for me is this: I do NOT want a Republican making supreme court justice picks this time around. Sorry, but someone in my position cannot afford that. Obama is far from perfect, but another 4 years of this same garbage is not what we need. Time to move on.

MacDawg

Aug 31, 2008, 01:33 PM

4 years of this same garbage is not what we need. Time to move on.

Time for new garbage that oddly smells the same

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

stubeeef

Aug 31, 2008, 01:40 PM

Sorry, but someone in my position cannot afford that. Obama is far from perfect, but another 4 years of this same garbage is not what we need. Time to move on.
I can not afford any democratic picks, I have 3 children and believe (crazy statement coming) that I can do better for them with the money I earn than the government can.

mactastic

Aug 31, 2008, 01:40 PM

stubeeef

Aug 31, 2008, 01:48 PM

If posting fake stories is enough to get you shut down and pay out billions, T. Boone and the rest of the swift boat liars would be broke right now, wouldn't you think? As would Michelle Malkin for her eff up of the Graeme Frost story.

But, since those folks are still operating, and don't seem to be out billions, I'd say Kos has little to be worried about. Particularly since he didn't even write that piece himself.

Take them to court, it is a simple process, hollywood stars do it and make money. There is a process, use it. If you are correct you can shut them down. If you are not......:cool:

leekohler

Aug 31, 2008, 01:50 PM

I can not afford any democratic picks, I have 3 children and believe (crazy statement coming) that I can do better for them with the money I earn than the government can.

Unfortunately for you, Bush feels differently. He's already spent your kids into oblivion, stu. Don't think for one second that McCain won't do the same thing. There has been no such thing as fiscal conservative for decades. So if that's your argument, it's a fairly poor one- no pun intended.

stubeeef

Aug 31, 2008, 01:57 PM

bobber205

Aug 31, 2008, 02:00 PM

Interesting, she was pleased with part, I image she also wanted more but was astonished to hear of any domestic quest from dear bho.
from your link

yes lets tax Exxon from making so much money!!! Dam that profit.
Wanna know who else made a bundle from Exxon? Who made Billions but contributed little to the effort? Hmmm wonder who could have been the biggest profitier of Exxon....US Government intake machine (http://seekingalpha.com/article/63131-exxon-s-2007-tax-bill-30-billion)

It wasn't her response that is most telling. It was the fact it was taken down on the day of her announcement as VP.

mactastic

Aug 31, 2008, 02:01 PM

Take them to court, it is a simple process, hollywood stars do it and make money. There is a process, use it. If you are correct you can shut them down. If you are not......:cool:
Well-- what's stopping you?

MacDawg

Aug 31, 2008, 02:01 PM

It wasn't her response that is most telling. It was the fact it was taken down on the day of her announcement as VP.

That wouldn't be particularly surprising
Political posturing is a part of the game

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

leekohler

Aug 31, 2008, 02:12 PM

And Pelosi and Reed didn't get their groupies to buy off on even ONE, 1, that's one year of a ban on PORK last spring. Listen lee, the pres proposes the congress passess. don't cry about the repub spending when it was blessed and passed by your leadership.

PS> now my wife is making me come back and clean the garage, can't play for now>sorry

Sorry man, you had a Republican majority for six years. You can't blame all that on Democrats. You can try, but it's not gonna fly.

I'm not the one claiming that Republicans aren't going to spend my money, that would be you. The only difference is how and when the bill gets paid. And it sounds to me like you're more than happy letting your kids get stuck with it, especially if you're supporting Bush.

mactastic

Aug 31, 2008, 02:20 PM

Sorry man, you had a Republican majority for six years. You can't blame all that on Democrats. You can try, but it's not gonna fly.

I'm not the one claiming that Republicans aren't going to spend my money, that would be you. The only difference is how and when the bill gets paid. And it sounds to me like you're more than happy letting your kids get stuck with it, especially if you're supporting Bush.
Are your surprised? It's all he's got. Doesn't matter what kind of fiscal insanity took place before 2006, it's all the Democrat's fault now. Even though the Republicans in the Senate were the most obstructionist minority in modern times.

On a related note, if Obama gets elected, it's gonna be real interesting to see what happens to the sacred Republican principle of the upordownvote in the Senate.

leekohler

Aug 31, 2008, 02:33 PM

Are your surprised? It's all he's got. Doesn't matter what kind of fiscal insanity took place before 2006, it's all the Democrat's fault now. Even though the Republicans in the Senate were the most obstructionist minority in modern times.

On a related note, if Obama gets elected, it's gonna be real interesting to see what happens to the sacred Republican principle of the upordownvote in the Senate.

No- I guess I'm not surprised. But it does puzzle me that people still try this lame argument. Republicans love the national credit card.

Ntombi

Aug 31, 2008, 02:58 PM

Oh please! Like you can tell from this picture? Her daughter in the green looks more pregnant than she does!:confused: That's the point!

This whole thread is talking about Sarah Palin being pregnant, not the daughter.

Not really. Did you read the article we were talking about?

It posited that Gov. Palin faked her pregnancy when the daughter was the one who gave birth. I posted those two pics, which were taken within days of each other, to demonstrat what I was talking about: a mother of four doesn't look like Palin at 7 months pregnant, but a young first time mother could look like the daughter.

Thomas Veil

Aug 31, 2008, 02:59 PM

Unfortunately for you, Bush feels differently. He's already spent your kids into oblivion, stu. Don't think for one second that McCain won't do the same thing. There has been no such thing as fiscal conservative for decades. So if that's your argument, it's a fairly poor one- no pun intended.Beat me to it. I thought the days were gone when Republicans were thought of as the fiscally responsible party.

I have no problem with her attempt to protect her daughter, IF THIS IS TRUE. I do have a problem with the dishonest component.And I think that's how most people are going to feel, stu. It would be that she's somebody in a position of power, trying to pull a really big fast one over the public. What would that do to public confidence in her? Exactly.

And I do emphasize that, while circumstantially this looks pretty bad, there is no real evidence as yet. What happens over the next few days will be fascinating. If AP, the Times, et. al. ask to see Trig's birth certificate under FOI and the Republicans try to block it, that looks bad. If they do get ahold of it and it looks like it's been forged/tampered with to make Sarah the mother, that rises to a whole 'nother level of worse.

Unless this gets disproven fast, expect to see the Republicans hiding behind HIPAA over the next few days or weeks.

stubeeef

Aug 31, 2008, 03:08 PM

Ntombi

Aug 31, 2008, 03:18 PM

Okay, I clearly misread the dates. Mea culpa.

I don't think either one looks pregant in the other pic, so I withdraw the part of my argument that alludes to the daughter looking pregnant.

But neither does Palin look pregant in any of the pics between her announcement at "7 months along" and delivery.

bobber205

Aug 31, 2008, 03:18 PM

Well according to this link (Anchorage Daily News) the picture used to prove her daughters is showing as early pregnant, and VP Palin is not> must mean a cover up. Looks like a DOA story.
http://www.adn.com/photos/v-gallery/story/509850.html?/1521/gallery/509852-a509987-t3.html
The pic was taken in 2006 the baby was born in 2008. Even if Dec of 2006 and born jan of 2008, this picture is proof of.......(drum roll..)

NOTHING..................

That picture was taken in 2007.

See. I can change the date too. ;)
Who knows if 2006 is true or not?

Sure is conventient.

The old line applies here "Democrats fall in love; Republicans fall in line".

McCain could have appointed Cheney as his VP (someone he said will play a major role in his adminstration) and all the republicans would be like "
Oh good. That guy has lots of experience, unlike Obama!!!!!!!"

:rolleyes:

stubeeef

Aug 31, 2008, 03:21 PM

How about a game of

We know the mama...BUT who's your daddy?

stubeeef

Aug 31, 2008, 03:23 PM

That picture was taken in 2007.

See. I can change the date too. ;)
Who knows if 2006 is true or not?

guess your gonna have to take your case to the Anchorge Daily News, Photo by LESTER / Anchorage Daily Newsthey are the ones saying the pic was 2006. but knowing your zeal to invent, have at it millions of dems are ready to follow.

TheAnswer

Aug 31, 2008, 03:25 PM

How about a game of

We know the mama...BUT who's your daddy?

Well that pick clearly shows Palin's daughter was pregnant, with John Edwards' child nonetheless. :eek: Good find!

stubeeef

Aug 31, 2008, 03:37 PM

Well that pick clearly shows Palin's daughter was pregnant, with John Edwards' child nonetheless. :eek: Good find!

YES! Wasn't Edwards a church youth counselor at a retreat she attended? The real story is hillary was the mid wife for the daughter and is protecting her so that obama will lose and she can run again in 2012!

bobber205

Aug 31, 2008, 03:49 PM

guess your gonna have to take your case to the Anchorge Daily News, they are the ones saying the pic was 2006. but knowing your zeal to invent, have at it millions of dems are ready to follow.

I will gladly take it up with them. There exists a great number of news organizations that receive money hats for things like this.

it5five

Aug 31, 2008, 03:53 PM

Well according to this link (Anchorage Daily News) the picture used to prove her daughters is showing as early pregnant, and VP Palin is not> must mean a cover up. Looks like a DOA story.
http://www.adn.com/photos/v-gallery/story/509850.html?/1521/gallery/509852-a509987-t3.html
The pic was taken in 2006 the baby was born in 2008. Even if Dec of 2006 and born jan of 2008, this picture is proof of.......(drum roll..)

NOTHING..................

While the date of the picture helps the Palins case, there are still many other questionable things about the pregnancy (the flight to Alaska/drive to hospital in town where Sarah was the mayor, her daughter being out of school for 5 to 8 months.

Okay, I clearly misread the dates. Mea culpa.

I don't think either one looks pregant in the other pic, so I withdraw the part of my argument that alludes to the daughter looking pregnant.

But neither does Palin look pregant in any of the pics between her announcement at "7 months along" and delivery.

Exactly. There are still a lot of questionable things about this, with or without the picture.

Cleverboy

Aug 31, 2008, 04:37 PM

And I do emphasize that, while circumstantially this looks pretty bad, there is no real evidence as yet. What happens over the next few days will be fascinating. If AP, the Times, et. al. ask to see Trig's birth certificate under FOI and the Republicans try to block it, that looks bad. If they do get ahold of it and it looks like it's been forged/tampered with to make Sarah the mother, that rises to a whole 'nother level of worse.No. If you actually think this out, it could be worse, simply by the fact that the birth certificate would NOT be forged. I'm not sure if it could be SEALED somehow, but if it couldn't be, only THEN might it be a case of false witness by, I would guess... a personal midwife that assisted in a homebirth, then we have another issue entirely. The circumstantial evidence can be EASILY broken anywhere along the way.

I really really hope its broken and this rumor is killed very very quickly, because the rumor is annoying to put up with if its baseless. If however, at every turn, there is more supporting circumstantial evidence that something is "off"... then we have a problem.

My BIGGEST problem is borne out by the news. Someone else mentioned this, and I asked my girlfriend. How late in a pregnancy should a woman be allowed to fly? My girlfriend said, as far as she knew, that it was to be avoided in the last two months. I said, "So, if your water broken... what do you think about the mother jumping on the plane for a couple of hours to fly cross-country." She said that sounded like *************.
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/380134.html
"The governor's labor began while she was in Texas, and I do know that she got on a plane and landed in Anchorage late last night," said Palin spokeswoman Sharon Leighow.
http://pregnancy.about.com/cs/travelduringpreg/a/aa052299.htm
# Talk to your practitioner before flying. If you are more than 36 weeks pregnant, many airlines will not let you fly for fear that you'll deliver on board.

# Try to do the majority of your traveling in the second trimester. Not only will you be more comfortable, but in general the risk of miscarriage and preterm labor are lower.

# Avoid excessive flying. Although there are no hard and fast numbers. The flight attendants with the higher miscarriage rates flew on average 74 hours per month.One commenter on the blog of the podcast (the Alaska Show (http://alaskapodshow.com/index.php/2008/08/30/sarah-palin-pregnancy-scandal/)) that shows Palin walking around at post-7 months, blurted emphatically:
And finally, WHO IN THERE RIGHT MIND FLIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN THEIR THIRD TRIMESTER? AND EVEN MORE APPALLING, WHO DOES FLIES BACK ACROSS THE COUNTRY ON A FLIGHT WITH A STOP-OVER A HALF DAY AFTER YOUR WATER BROKE A MONTH EARLIER THAN YOU WERE SUPPOSEDLY DUE?Now.org released a statement about Palin's policies on Women's Rights issues (combined with the oversight on ignoring the sexual harrassment allegations for Moneghan's replacement). In it, I thought there was an interesting stand from Palin that involved her daughter:
http://www.now.org/press/08-08/08-29.html
In a gubernatorial debate, Palin stated emphatically that her opposition to abortion was so great, so total, that even if her teenage daughter was impregnated by a rapist, she would "choose life" -- meaning apparently that she would not permit her daughter to have an abortion.Interesting quote.

~ CB

leekohler

Aug 31, 2008, 04:37 PM

How about a game of

We know the mama...BUT who's your daddy?

Haha! That is awesome! :D

Cursor

Aug 31, 2008, 04:44 PM

Here is another link making the case. I find this really interesting. Do we really want another blatant liar, so close to that big red button marked "nukes"?

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2008/08/did-i-say-daffyits-now-getting-sad.html

mactastic

Aug 31, 2008, 08:03 PM

While the date of the picture helps the Palins case, there are still many other questionable things about the pregnancy (the flight to Alaska/drive to hospital in town where Sarah was the mayor, her daughter being out of school for 5 to 8 months.

Exactly. There are still a lot of questionable things about this, with or without the picture.
I wouldn't get too invested in this story. At least not at this point.

She's an extremist Christian, who wants to subvert science and teach creationism in schools. That's enough for me to know I won't support her.

bobber205

Aug 31, 2008, 08:10 PM

mactastic

Aug 31, 2008, 08:34 PM

REALLY?!

Oh crap. Not another one of those people.... :(
Yes really. There are far more important things to be criticizing her over than something that sounds like a conspiracy theory at this point.

Lord Blackadder

Aug 31, 2008, 08:52 PM

There's a lot of mudslinging going on already, and if you cock your ear <listens intently>...

...You can hear the sound of third-rate journalists and pundits trying to dig up dirt on Palin.

I prefer to judge her on issues myself, and I hope the Obama campaign does the same.

Cleverboy

Aug 31, 2008, 09:10 PM

I wouldn't get too invested in this story. At least not at this point. She's an extremist Christian, who wants to subvert science and teach creationism in schools. That's enough for me to know I won't support her. Like McCain, she's talked out of both sides of her mouth on this issue of "Creationism". A spokesperson said some line of garbage that said she didn't want to "force" the teaching of creationism, so much as make sure that people have "options" and that different views are given equal consideration. --Which of course, puts you back on square one.

I asked my fiance today if she believed in "Intelligent Design", and she blinked at me. I immediately Wiki'd it to give her a clear definition, only to wind up with MUD. The Christians I know think that Genesis is largely metaphorical and that evolution is part of God's plan. Anyone thinking "Intelligent Design" is an "alternative" to evolution, is a damn fool. Which is what Palin is... unless she's simply lying.
PALIN: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information.
"Healthy debate is so important and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.

"And, you know, I say this, too, as the daughter of a science teacher. Growing up with being so privileged and blessed to be given a lot of information on, on both sides of the subject -- creationism and evolution.
"It's been a healthy foundation for me. But don't be afraid of information and let kids debate both sides."
http://religionblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/08/religion-and-sarah-palin-1.html

~ CB

MacDawg

Aug 31, 2008, 09:14 PM

Anyone thinking "Intelligent Design" is an "alternative" to evolution, is a damn fool.

There are quite a few highly educated scientists that would take exception with you on that characterization.

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

.Andy

Aug 31, 2008, 09:21 PM

There are quite a few highly educated scientists that would take exception with you on that characterization.

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif
Not really. Only those who stretch the definition of science to include astrology and alchemy to advance their own religious ends (i.e. Michael Behe and the Discovery Institute hacks).

Intelligent design is creationism and is not science. It's not an alternative to evolution at all. It's a fictional belief system that has no basis in reality and has no place being taught in schools.

MacDawg

Aug 31, 2008, 09:27 PM

Not really. Only those who stretch the definition of science to include astrology and alchemy to advance their own religious ends (i.e. Michael Behe and the Discovery Institute hacks).

Intelligent design is creationism and is not science. It's not an alternative to evolution at all. It's a fictional belief system that has no basis in reality and has no place being taught in schools.

Not really

And your characterization of astrology and alchemy is unfounded

Unfortunately, any scientist who fails to worship at the altar of evolution is disqualified out of hand, regardless of qualifications, background, education or reasoning

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

Cleverboy

Aug 31, 2008, 09:33 PM

There are quite a few highly educated scientists that would take exception with you on that characterization.

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gifPlease describe to me, by defining both, how "Intelligent Design" is an alternative to evolution, without sounding like a religious apologist who doesn't know what he's saying. Honestly, I have a very open-mind I looked up Intelligent Design, expecting that I would have a clear meaning in my head within minutes... but instead, what I got was mostly that Intelligent Design exists almost entirely as a RESPONSE to the concept of evolution... which doesn't exist a "response" to anything. Evolution is a theory formed simply by the facts.

Intelligent Design amounts to the assumption that "evolution" is some form of stealth ideology that stands in opposition to religious belief. --It is NOT an alternative to evolution. Believing it is, that it is something as granular, and independently confirmed and debated as evolution and "natural selection"... is an insult to the entire scientific process.

As I said... you can be a highly educated scientist with religious beliefs. That has NOTHING to do with accepting "Intelligent Design" as an alternative to evolution. Note the meaning of the word "alternative".

~ CB

.Andy

Aug 31, 2008, 09:34 PM

And your characterization of astrology and alchemy is unfounded
No it's not. Behe got up in a court of law and admitted that he had stretched his definition of science included ridiculous notions like astrology (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8178.html). That the stars can predict when the best time to ask someone out on a date is. Seriously. That is not the words of a sane 'highly educate' scientist.

Unfortunately, any scientist who fails to worship at the altar of evolution is disqualified out of hand, regardless of qualifications, background, education or reasoning
They certainly are (and rightly so) when they present intelligent design as science.

Perhaps you could fill us all in on what exactly is scientific about intelligent design? And just focus on Intelligent design, don't carry on about evolution this and evolution that. For intelligent design to be science needs to stand on its scientific merits. The floor is yours....

MacDawg

Aug 31, 2008, 09:39 PM

Perhaps you could fill us all in on what exactly is scientific about intelligent design? And just focus on Intelligent design, don't carry on about evolution this and evolution that. For intelligent design to be science needs to stand on its scientific merits. The floor is yours....

As if this hasn't been discussed ad naseum here
No thanks...

And since evolution cannot be tested with the scientific method, it doesn't qualify either, but oh yeah... that's different

This is a thread about Palin... so let's not get too OT with this

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

Cleverboy

Aug 31, 2008, 09:39 PM

.Andy

Aug 31, 2008, 09:54 PM

This is a thread about Palin... so let's not get too OT with this
But before you do so you'll take a cowardly pot shot right?

And since evolution cannot be tested with the scientific method, it doesn't qualify either, but oh yeah... that's different
Sorry you're wrong evolution can be tested just like every other scientific theory. Evolutionary theory makes predictions about what fossils we will find where (it's never been wrong even though it's totally falsifiable). We can observe evolution it in bacteria, fruit flies, fish etc etc. We can observe it with viruses from year to year through human populations. Yes this has been discussed here ad nauseum but it needs to be because people such as yourself chose to remain ignorant for the expediency of their own beliefs and opinions. Saying evolution can't be tested illustrates a embarrassing misunderstanding of both the fundamental tenets of science and evolution.

Here's a pdf (http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/stellent/groups/corporatesite/@msh_publishing_group/documents/web_document/wtd026042.pdf) on evolution, explaining it very simply for secondary school students from the Wellcome trust in the UK. It's an easy read.

To reiterate: intelligent design has nothing. Nothing at all. Besides backing by people that believe that their god is the real one. No evidence. No science. No observation. No falsifiability. It is creationism dishonestly dressed up as science to force religion into schools to indoctrinate children. The wedge document (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy) is out there for all to read.

mactastic

Aug 31, 2008, 09:54 PM

There are quite a few highly educated scientists that would take exception with you on that characterization.

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif
So do you just want "both" views taught, or should we teach all views on how life began?

Because once you open the door to one mystical interpretation not grounded in science, you have to teach the FSM version along with all the others...

MacDawg

Aug 31, 2008, 10:07 PM

How quickly the sharks circle when there is blood in the water...

I am not stating a position or defending my own beliefs here, I merely responded to Cleverboy's assertions that "Anyone thinking "Intelligent Design" is an "alternative" to evolution, is a damn fool." I find that kind of thinking arrogant and elitist.

I won't be baited into another tired argument of evolution v. intelligent design. There are plenty of discussions of that already in the PRSI and it will not be resolved here.

This is a thread about Palin, and I would rather it get back on topic. If any of you so choose to start another thread about this topic, so be it, but I will not take this thread off topic.

You are free to read whatever you want to into that.

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

Cleverboy

Aug 31, 2008, 10:14 PM

I am not stating a position or defending my own beliefs here, I merely responded to Cleverboy's assertions that "Anyone thinking "Intelligent Design" is an "alternative" to evolution, is a damn fool." I find that kind of thinking arrogant and elitist.
You may not believe me, but if you talked to my friends, you'd find there are very very few things I'd ever say someone is a "damn fool" for arguing. I'm sorry, this is one of them. Now, I didn't say you're a "damn fool" for believing "Intelligent Design", I said (and I appreciate you noting EXACTLY this) that you're a damn fool if you think it is an alternative to evolution. IT'S NOT AN ALTERNATIVE! Thinking otherwise is extremely foolish. I'm sorry, but it is! And I don't think its "elitist" or "closed-minded" to think that something that cannot be scientifically presented, cannot be scientifically compared. This is just base logic here, not an attempt to suppress a justifiable opinion.

READ THIS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

Once you start with the assumption that "natural selection" may only resemble an "undirected process", and that evolution itself may easily fit under the hazy definition that is "ID", then the whole concept of it as an "alternative" falls apart entirely. Right? Think about it. The concept that it should be "taught" or "accepted" as an "alternative viewpoint", presupposes that it is an alternative viewpoint incompatible with the view largely held. Instead, "ID" is a large umbrella incorporating a wild diversity of vagueness.

~ CB

bobber205

Aug 31, 2008, 10:14 PM

How unstable do your religious beliefs have to be to think that evolution undermines religion?

Sure it counts of the Eden story but that's about it.

If anything, it makes religion even MORE important. Evolution proves that it was a freakin' miracle our world is as it is. Who made it happen that way? God. (My belief anyway)

Thomas Veil

Aug 31, 2008, 10:31 PM

Please, not another tiresome thread diversion attempting to present creationism as a legitimate scientific argument. You want to talk about that again, go back and review recent threads. I prefer to stick to the subject at hand.

Here is another link making the case. I find this really interesting. Do we really want another blatant liar, so close to that big red button marked "nukes"?

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2008/08/did-i-say-daffyits-now-getting-sad.htmlAgain, the four photos presented in that link are all circumstantial, but the circumstantial pile is getting a little high.

I don't automatically buy, as the author appears to, that Bristol holding the child displays a "motherly" look...but it is interesting that in all four pictures, it is Bristol holding the child, not Todd or Sarah Palin.

MacDawg

Aug 31, 2008, 10:41 PM

Please, not another tiresome thread diversion attempting to present creationism as a legitimate scientific argument. You want to talk about that again, go back and review recent threads. I prefer to stick to the subject at hand.

If you read back over my posts, you will see that I am the one that tried to restore the thread back on topic... not hijack and divert it. Several times actually.

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

Cursor

Sep 1, 2008, 12:20 AM

Please, not another tiresome thread diversion attempting to present creationism as a legitimate scientific argument. You want to talk about that again, go back and review recent threads. I prefer to stick to the subject at hand.

Again, the four photos presented in that link are all circumstantial, but the circumstantial pile is getting a little high.

I don't automatically buy, as the author appears to, that Bristol holding the child displays a "motherly" look...but it is interesting that in all four pictures, it is Bristol holding the child, not Todd or Sarah Palin.

I didn't automatically buy it either, but all of the photos and comparisons with her previous pregnancies, and the coincidence that her daughter "had mono" and was out of school for 5-8 months all add up to an interesting story. It almost seems too simple to put the pieces together that Palin really wasn't pregnant at 44.

OutThere

Sep 1, 2008, 12:26 AM

I found this good summary of the 'water-breakgate', as he puts it :D, situation:

http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/jnail/blog/&blogId=3422

bobber205

Sep 1, 2008, 01:06 AM

A Must Read for anyone posting in the thread. (http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/4628/sarahpalinla4.png)

bobber205

Sep 1, 2008, 01:09 AM

I found this good summary of the 'water-breakgate', as he puts it :D, situation:

http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/jnail/blog/&blogId=3422

Palin Family Holiday 2007 photo below orig. printed in the Anchorage paper 3/2008:

Also shown on web captioned as 2006 just showing up today like that. Odd.

Wow. What do you Palin fall-in-liners have to say to that? :)

http://www.forumspile.com/Misc-OhSnap.jpg

Abstract

Sep 1, 2008, 01:52 AM

This poor, poor Palin lady. She's supposed to be the personification of personal values for McCain and his campaign, and yet she's a liar who would take her child out of school AND make her daughter lie and say that her child.....her own baby that she had to carry for nearly a year......isn't hers, but her mother's.

This is family values in the 2000s, folks.

Oh, and even if she was the mother (and it's getting obvious that she isn't, no?), being able to care for a DS baby, 4 other children while serving as VP of (arguably) the most powerful nation in the world is amazing. If she can handle it without affecting her children, which I doubt, then it's fantastic that she can serve as VP. Please don't get me wrong. I'm all for women in higher office, even if they have young children. If their family have some way of handling it appropriately, then great. However, does her situation and really fit the "conservative" view of family values? I'd understand if she was a Democrat, but mostly because Democrats are naturally more flexible. However, as a Republican with a lot of family matters on her plate, I'm surprisd that her situation would appeal to the most conservative Republicans, the very people she is supposed to appeal to most.

It's an honest question (I'm not really into politics, especially when I can't even vote in another country's election), so try not to slam me. ;)

So do you just want "both" views taught, or should we teach all views on how life began?

Because once you open the door to one mystical interpretation not grounded in science, you have to teach the FSM version along with all the others...

Xenu.
Spacecraft.
Hydrogen bombs.

That's the story.

Thanatoast

Sep 1, 2008, 01:52 AM

YES! Wasn't Edwards a church youth counselor at a retreat she attended? The real story is hillary was the mid wife for the daughter and is protecting her so that obama will lose and she can run again in 2012!
Hey, hey, hey. If that was even an indirect dig, I resent it. One of our girls had to completely re-align her life story based upon this new information, and it confuses her to this day as to why someone would lie about who her mother is. If Palin chose this path, it's a poor choice and does not speak well of her character, only her need to be respected in certain social circles. I know another woman who got pregnant at fifteen, but her mother and step-father were supportive and helped her all they could. A much more balanced family resulted, without the the fear of discovery or shame hanging over their heads. I wouldn't ever trust people who made the wrong decision on this issue to make decisions that the entire country has to endure. It's an issue of character.

Ntombi

Sep 1, 2008, 02:03 AM

I found this good summary of the 'water-breakgate', as he puts it :D, situation:

http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/jnail/blog/&blogId=3422
Thank you, that was the best summary I've seen.

Thanatoast

Sep 1, 2008, 02:05 AM

Sorry for the double post...

On the issue of creationism, one cannot count creationism and evolution with the same force of legitimacy.

Evolution is based upon the available physical evidence, several thousand years of observations concerning adaptation and the nature of biology and geology, plus the scientific method, which standardizes data gathering and reporting.

Creationism is based on stories told around the campfire five thousand years ago by nomadic goat herders.

Pardon me if I choose the "theory" which was created using the method that accounts for the technological progress of the last four hundred years rather than the story invented by bronze age, genocidal zealots.

TheQuestion

Sep 1, 2008, 03:17 AM

Ntombi

Sep 1, 2008, 04:31 AM

My father was at Mat-Su Regional hospital getting an angioplasty the day Gov Palin was admitted and Trig was born - april 18. She is a dainty, petite woman who is rail thin when she isn't pregnant. Dozens of people saw Palin (including my father), who clearly was with child. Admittedly she looked only 5-6 months along at the time. Trig was born a month premature, very typical of Downs babies, especially to mothers over 40. Over a dozen hospital staff were a part of the delivery process. I can't believe how stupid some people are on this board who will look for any reason (from the DailyKos? Are you kidding me???) to slam a republican. I'm not a Palinista (what we call the rabid followers of Sarah here in AK), but this imagined conspiracy is sick and completely revealing of the ignorance some lefties will immerse themselves in just to make a republican look bad. Sickening.
If you didn't have second-hand knowledge of Palin's pregnancy, would her actions look suspicious to you? Assuming you know anything about pregnancy.

I'm asking this in all sincerity: nothing about her daughter, nothing about her not looking pregnant or looking pregnant, etc., just her actions from Texas to delivery in her hometown thousands of miles away. Would they raise your eyebrows?

I'm not big on conspiracy theories, and I've even said in this thread that I'm not sure it would hurt them in the election; I'm simply looking at it from someone who has a lot of knowledge of pregnancies and how they progress, and to me, something doesn't look kosher.

kavika411

Sep 1, 2008, 07:19 AM

I'm not big on conspiracy theories...

Then you may be interested to know that someone has apparently broken into you MacRumors account and, posing as you, has been posting - in this very thread, no less - photographs of Sarah Palin and her family, and giving excited commentary on how pregnancies do and don't work. You may need to file a report with the higher-ups before that person - posing as you - continues to be "not big on conspiracy theories."

Queso

Sep 1, 2008, 07:45 AM

but this imagined conspiracy is sick and completely revealing of the ignorance some lefties will immerse themselves in just to make a republican look bad. Sickening.
Sadly this is very much a two-way street. Smears and lies are all over American politics these days. It's what you get when things become so overly partisan that your side winning becomes the only thing that matters.

kavika411

Sep 1, 2008, 09:08 AM

What do you Palin fall-in-liners have to say to that?

That it is an untrue rumor.

Edit: My mistake. Apparently your question was rhetorical. You weren't actually asking; you were being smug. My apologies.

Thanatoast

Sep 1, 2008, 12:12 PM

Palin Says Her Daughter, 17, Is Pregnant

New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/us/international-usa-politics-palin.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)ST. PAUL, Sept 1 (Reuters) - The 17-year-old daughter of Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin is pregnant, Palin said on Monday in an announcement intended to knock down rumors by liberal bloggers that Palin faked her own pregnancy to cover up for her child.

Bristol Palin, one of Alaska Gov. Palin's five children with her husband, Todd, is about five months pregnant and is going to keep the child and marry the father, the Palins said in a statement released by the campaign of Republican presidential candidate John McCain.

Bristol Palin made the decision on her own to keep the baby, McCain aides said.

"We have been blessed with five wonderful children who we love with all our heart and mean everything to us," the Palins' statement said.

"Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. As Bristol faces the responsibilities of adulthood, she knows she has our unconditional love and support," the Palins said.

The Palins asked the news media to respect the young couple's privacy.

"Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family. We ask the media, respect our daughter and Levi's privacy as has always been the tradition of children of candidates," the statement concluded.

[more]

yg17

Sep 1, 2008, 12:15 PM

Oh snap!

Normally, I wouldn't worry about someone's personal life like that, but when Palin is a strong, staunch supporter of abstinence-only sex education and a part of the ultra-right wing evangelical no-premarital-sex crowd, this is a big deal.

TheAnswer

Sep 1, 2008, 12:29 PM

So their argument is that because they are coming forth with Bristol's current pregnancy, this somehow negates the possibility of an earlier coverup?

I've never been the subject of abstinence only sex education, but they must teach it is possible to give birth more that once.

I'm still more disturbed by the cavalier attitude and poor judgment Palin may have shown by flying late in her pregnancy, waiting and flying after her water broke and apparently taking every step short of a coathanger to risk the life of her premature special needs child.

Lord Blackadder

Sep 1, 2008, 12:31 PM

It's probably because of Gustav, but "Broken Watergate" is not getting much news coverage at the moment.

I imagine the real mudslinging will happen during the convention. It certainly has the potential to be a lot messier than the PUMA scare.

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 12:32 PM

mactastic

Sep 1, 2008, 12:32 PM

It'll be interesting to see the timeline on this. Were the stories about mono a lie to cover up the pregnancy? Were there other lies told in an attempt to keep this under wraps?

And what of the staunch religious views of no sex before marriage? Obviously Bristol didn't follow the teachings of her mother. What of others who fail to meet the church's teachings? What would a very conservative religious leader say about people like that in general?

And finally, I bet Bristol wishes she'd used some birth control...

Lord Blackadder

Sep 1, 2008, 12:35 PM

One thing's for sure, this will not help McCain with the Fundies, who were already not happy with him not being a rank-and-file, lockstep far right candidate.

mactastic

Sep 1, 2008, 12:36 PM

KOS IS THE BIGGEST LOZER ORGANIZATION IN HISTORY!!!!

WHAT A BUNCH ON F UPS!!!!

WHERE IS THE JERK OFF CALLING VP PALIN A LIAR!!!!

JERKS:cool:

WOW TRUTH, OMG IT DIDN'T COME FROM SOME OBAMA LOV'N IDIOTS (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080901/pl_nm/usa_politics_palin_dc_3)
HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE WAS NO F'IN LYING GOING ON? AS ALREADY NOTED, WHAT ABOUT THE MONO STORY? THIS RUMOR HAS BEEN FLOATING AROUND IN AK F'IN POLITICS FOR A COUPLE MONTHS NOW, SO WE NEED TO SEE WHAT QUAYLIN HAS BEEN SAYING ABOUT IT. IT OBVIOUSLY WASN'T A PUBLICLY KNOWN FACT THAT BRISTOL WAS PREGNANT. LIES OF OMISSION ARE JUST AS BAD AS LIES OF COMMISSION.

SO LET'S SEE WHERE THIS GOES BEFORE JERK OFFS START CALLING FOR KOS'S HEAD -- WHO DIDN'T EVEN WRITE THE PIECE IN QUESTION.

BoyBach

Sep 1, 2008, 12:40 PM

"Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child....

Is that the sound a shotgun being loaded, I can hear! :p

mactastic

Sep 1, 2008, 12:41 PM

One thing's for sure, this will not help McCain with the Fundies, who were already not happy with him not being a rank-and-file, lockstep far right candidate.
I doubt that. They'll rationalize this and fall in line with their party like they always do. We'll hear about how 'brave' Bristol is, and what a loving family the Palins are to support their daughter.

The only way the fundies would care is if it had been a Democratic family facing this issue.

I'm guessing; however, that Bristol got the "abstinence only" education. And we can see how well THAT worked out.

BoyBach

Sep 1, 2008, 12:42 PM

KOS IS THE BIGGEST LOZER ORGANIZATION IN HISTORY!!!!

WHAT A BUNCH ON F UPS!!!!

WHERE IS THE JERK OFF CALLING VP PALIN A LIAR!!!!

JERKS:cool:

WOW TRUTH, OMG IT DIDN'T COME FROM SOME OBAMA LOV'N IDIOTS (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080901/pl_nm/usa_politics_palin_dc_3)

LET'S LET THE MUD-SLINGERS BRING IN THE MINOR DAUGHTER AND SCREW HER UP WITH A GUILT CASE THE SIZE OF KOS'S EGO!

HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE WAS NO F'IN LYING GOING ON? AS ALREADY NOTED, WHAT ABOUT THE MONO STORY? THIS RUMOR HAS BEEN FLOATING AROUND IN AK F'IN POLITICS FOR A COUPLE MONTHS NOW, SO WE NEED TO SEE WHAT QUAYLIN HAS BEEN SAYING ABOUT IT. IT OBVIOUSLY WASN'T A PUBLICLY KNOWN FACT THAT BRISTOL WAS PREGNANT. LIES OF OMISSION ARE JUST AS BAD AS LIES OF COMMISSION.

SO LET'S SEE WHERE THIS GOES BEFORE JERK OFFS START CALLING FOR KOS'S HEAD -- WHO DIDN'T EVEN WRITE THE PIECE IN QUESTION.

WHY IS EVERYONE SHOUTING!?

Lord Blackadder

Sep 1, 2008, 12:44 PM

I doubt that. They'll rationalize this and fall in line with their party like they always do. We'll hear about how 'brave' Bristol is, and what a loving family the Palins are to support their daughter.

They might. But this, coupled with their suspicion of McCain, might be enough to turn many off.

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 12:49 PM

HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE WAS NO F'IN LYING GOING ON? CRAP LOAD OF LIBERAL LIES, LIES AND LIES.
AS ALREADY NOTED, WHAT ABOUT THE MONO STORY? THIS RUMOR HAS BEEN FLOATING AROUND IN AK F'IN POLITICS FOR A COUPLE MONTHS NOW, SO WE NEED TO SEE WHAT QUAYLIN HAS BEEN SAYING ABOUT IT. IT OBVIOUSLY WASN'T A PUBLICLY KNOWN FACT THAT BRISTOL WAS PREGNANT. LIES OF OMISSION ARE JUST AS BAD AS LIES OF COMMISSION.
WHO'S BLESSED NEED TO KNOW IS THERE FOR A MINOR WHO IS PREGNANT! FOR ALL THE HATE SPEWING GARBARGE ABOUT PROTECTING PEOPLES LIBERTY, THIS IS A FABULOUS EXAMPLE FROM KOS.

SO LET'S SEE WHERE THIS GOES BEFORE JERK OFFS START CALLING FOR KOS'S HEAD -- WHO DIDN'T EVEN WRITE THE PIECE IN QUESTION.
IS HAS GONE, LEFT THE STATION. THE BABY ISVP SARAH PALIN'S. HER DAUGHTER WAS BEING PROTECTED BY HER PARENTS (THIER THE THINGS LIBERALS WANT TO SUPLANT) TILL THEY KNEW ABOUT THE ARRANGEMENTS. THEY WERE ACTUALLY DOING MORE FOR HIPPA THAN ANY F'N LIBERAL WAS!!!!
WHAT A PILE OF STINKY MESS, THIS WILLBACKLASH OBAMA, THIS WILLHURT HIM BECAUSE A LOT OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE SUPPORTING HIM ARE TRASH.

yg17

Sep 1, 2008, 12:50 PM

KOS IS THE BIGGEST LOZER ORGANIZATION IN HISTORY!!!!

WHAT A BUNCH ON F UPS!!!!

WHERE IS THE JERK OFF CALLING VP PALIN A LIAR!!!!

JERKS:cool:

WOW TRUTH, OMG IT DIDN'T COME FROM SOME OBAMA LOV'N IDIOTS (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080901/pl_nm/usa_politics_palin_dc_3)

LET'S LET THE MUD-SLINGERS BRING IN THE MINOR DAUGHTER AND SCREW HER UP WITH A GUILT CASE THE SIZE OF KOS'S EGO!

Maybe you need to know what the hell you are talking about before you speak. ANYONE who posted the "Trig is really not Sarah's baby" crap on Kos was quickly flamed, told to piss off, troll-rated and in some cases, banned. Those diaries were not acceptable on Kos and 99.9% of the people on that site think the theory is a bunch of crap.

BoyBach

Sep 1, 2008, 12:51 PM

I'm guessing; however, that Bristol got the "abstinence only" education. And we can see how well THAT worked out.

132632

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 12:51 PM

They might. But this, coupled with their suspicion of McCain, might be enough to turn many off.

HA!
THIS IS A RALLYING CRY!!!!

Ntombi

Sep 1, 2008, 12:53 PM

Then you may be interested to know that someone has apparently broken into you MacRumors account and, posing as you, has been posting - in this very thread, no less - photographs of Sarah Palin and her family, and giving excited commentary on how pregnancies do and don't work. You may need to file a report with the higher-ups before that person - posing as you - continues to be "not big on conspiracy theories.":rolleyes: whatever.

I noticed you didn't address the point of my post, just took that statement out to offer some sarcastic retort.

I'm not big on conspiracies, and I posted pics after someone referenced them. I talked about the difference between first pregnancies and fifth pregnancies because that's something else that jumped out at me about this story, which would be the case for anyone not sticking their head in the sand, I believe. Whether you thought it was breathless depends on your interpretation, I guess. Need some excitement?

And once again I ask this question: if you didn't know anything about Palin other than her age, what would you think of her behavior after her water broke?

Queso

Sep 1, 2008, 12:53 PM

Wow. I never thought stubeeef would happily associate with anything liberal, but his usage of the caps lock key has proved that wrong :)

yg17

Sep 1, 2008, 12:56 PM

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 12:59 PM

There Are Plenty Of Posts Anti Palin And More Tempered On That Blog, I Have Read Them. It Is A Far Cry From 99.9%
But When Ever Someone From The Mccain Campaign Was Called Out For Something Off Color>they Got Shot.
Obama Better Shoot This Group Of F Ups!!!

While Her Parents Have Taught Her Many Things, That Doesn't Mean They Learn. She Is A Minor Making A Typical Bad Decision, I'm Positive She Wishes She Had Re-read About Abstinence. The People Embracing This, Hoping It Was True, Are The Biggest Problem With Society, What A Bunch Of Morons.

Yes, I Am Angry, And Watch The Money Flood In For Mccain, Can't Wait For This Story To Make Mainstream Now.
Accused Of Not Being Pregnant, Of Stealing Her Daughters Baby, Nice One, Real Class.

yg17

Sep 1, 2008, 01:01 PM

Yes, there are plenty of anti-Palin posts on that site, what do you expect? But the ones that aren't troll-rated and sent to the depths of hell are posts attacking her policy and past decisions as mayor and governor, not her personal life. You obviously don't know a damn thing about dKos, so stop criticizing it.

And turn off the damn caps lock

mactastic

Sep 1, 2008, 01:02 PM

CRAP LOAD OF LIBERAL LIES, LIES AND LIES.
CRAP LOAD OF CONSERVATIVE LIES FLOATING AROUND THIS ELECTION SEASON TOO -- OR HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN (MYOPIC MUCH) ABOUT THE OBAMA-IS-A-MUSLIM CONSERVATIVE JERK OFF LIARS? I'D HAVE TO GUESS SO

WHO'S BLESSED NEED TO KNOW IS THERE FOR A MINOR WHO IS PREGNANT! FOR ALL THE HATE SPEWING GARBARGE ABOUT PROTECTING PEOPLES LIBERTY, THIS IS A FABULOUS EXAMPLE FROM KOS.
OH THAT'S RICH COMING FROM THE PARTY WHO "OUTED" GRAEME FROST. DID YOU CALL FOR F'IN JERK OFF MICHELLE MALKINS "CRAP LOAD OF CONSERVATIVE LIES" THEN? OF COURSE YOU DIDN'T.

IS HAS GONE, LEFT THE STATION. THE BABY ISVP SARAH PALIN'S. HER DAUGHTER WAS BEING PROTECTED BY HER PARENTS (THIER THE THINGS LIBERALS WANT TO SUPLANT) TILL THEY KNEW ABOUT THE ARRANGEMENTS. THEY WERE ACTUALLY DOING MORE FOR HIPPA THAN ANY F'N LIBERAL WAS!!!!
WHAT A PILE OF STINKY MESS, THIS WILLBACKLASH OBAMA, THIS WILLHURT HIM BECAUSE A LOT OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE SUPPORTING HIM ARE TRASH.
THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF UNASWERED QUESTIONS. THE TRASH SUPPORTING MCCAIN IS NO BETTER. ALL THE F'IN JERK OFFS WHO CALL OBAMA A LIAR FOR HIS MEDICAL RECORDS OR HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE OR HIS RELIGION WILL HURT MCCAIN WORSE THAN ANYTHING THIS WILL GENERATE. WHAT A BUNCH OF F'IN STUPID LOZERS THEY ALL ARE.

kavika411

Sep 1, 2008, 01:03 PM

Were Palin to become vice president, I foresee a scenario where her youngest daughter may be called upon to sing the national anthem, perhaps at tee-ball game or the like. In that regard, I was looking at her picture. I just don't think she is pretty enough to sing the national anthem. Do we have any mechanisms in place to prevent that little girl from singing the national anthem?

hulugu

Sep 1, 2008, 01:14 PM

...But When Ever Someone From The Mccain Campaign Was Called Out For Something Off Color>they Got Shot.
Obama Better Shoot This Group Of F Ups...

The DailyKos is a independent blog not associated with the Obama campaign. However, comments made by, for example, Phil Gramm was done by an advisor to the campaign.
The DailyKos is akin to Bill O'Reilly (in relationship to the campaign). In other words, Obama can't "shoot this group of f ups" because they're not his guys.

TheQuestion

Sep 1, 2008, 01:18 PM

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 01:21 PM

And stu, here's a fine example of what happens when someone on Daily Kos posts the baby cover-up conspiracy crap:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/1/123727/7282/618/582133

Make sure to read the comments.

great link, i did read everyone of them, they were all today. not from the last few days.
from dkos it went to every dark moist corner of seething truth haters. they latched on it like leachs on a swimming cow.
Now read the ones from the start
it would not just be a case of saving her daughter's reputation, but also (and possibly foremost) one of cold calculation to save her own political career by keeping it free from the taint of hypocrisy and scandal.

Ya hypocrisy and scandal.
I have 3 daughters, I try and teach them many values. Stay away from drugs and alcohol, refrain from sex, don't steal, and most of the things members of society should expect. IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DO IT!
Who here thinks McGovern was a desent man, I do. I didn't like his politics, but he was a good man imho. Do you think he tried to teach his daughter right and wrong?
http://www.unhooked.com/booktalk/terry.htm
Well he did.
I have to laugh, with a name like MoveOn you think the left ever will?

mactastic

Sep 1, 2008, 01:25 PM

We don't call it Wasyphillis (Wasilla) for nothing. Sexual promiscuity is rampant among all groups: LDS, Pentacostals, Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists...you name it, they're doing it.
Which makes it a typical place in that respect. And why abstinence-only education is a crock.

It'll be interesting to see if there are quotes by people on the religious right regarding Jamie Lynn Spears' baby...

Sky Blue

Sep 1, 2008, 01:26 PM

Her 17-year old daughter is preggers:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/01/1318541.aspx

Go abstinence!

TheQuestion

Sep 1, 2008, 01:33 PM

Which makes it a typical place in that respect. And why abstinence-only education is a crock.

It'll be interesting to see if there are quotes by people on the religious right regarding Jamie Lynn Spears' baby...

Actually, my point is the "religious right" here (not even a term that exists here) doesn't give a ****** about teen sex or pregnancy. It's a non-issue as long as the teens get married. Almost like the 1800s or something. Not that I'm wild about this...like I said earlier, I'm not a Palinista and I think she's been a joke as a governor, but not for the reasons she is getting slammed on these boards.

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 01:34 PM

Her 17-year old daughter is preggers:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/01/1318541.aspx

Go abstinence!

I wonder if it was ever taught in her school. I don't know if she went to public school or not.
LINK (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/state_data/states/alaska.html) from 2005, still researching what she was denied in HS.

Alaska>Considered BEST on minor consent for contraceptives
Best All or most minors can consent to contraceptive services

hulugu

Sep 1, 2008, 01:39 PM

....
Ya hypocrisy and scandal.
I have 3 daughters, I try and teach them many values. Stay away from drugs and alcohol, refrain from sex, don't steal, and most of the things members of society should expect. IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DO IT!...

Of course, you try to teach them values as a parent. However, Palin is also a government official and as such is trying to push "abstinence-only" education is spite of clear and close evidence that such a program doesn't work.

Personally, beyond this aspect of the story, I'd really like this to be forgotten because I don't think we need Bristol's personal mistake paraded around the national media like some prize.

Edit:

I wonder if it was ever taught in her school. I don't know if she went to public school or not.
LINK (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/state_data/states/alaska.html) from 2005, still researching what she was denied in HS.

Alaska>Considered BEST on minor consent for contraceptives

That's great. You do know that Palin became governor in 2006?

Cleverboy

Sep 1, 2008, 01:42 PM

So, here's what we know as FACT:

#1. The initial "rumor" over the possibility of Trak Palin being Bristol's baby (http://www.officialwire.com/main.php?action=posted_news&rid=72656&catid=10) was entirely false.

#2. One of the foundations of the rumor still stands as a stark criticism of Palin's decision making concerning motherhood, mainly, taking an international flight after her water broke.

#3. Although only ONE of the aspects of the story that contributed to the rumor pointed to the actual truth (the mononucleosis excuse, Palin's starkly different abdomen size compared to photos of her first pregnancy, risky plane flight after water broke, or photos), the firestorm of rumors directly forced Palin to make a public statement regarding the fact that her daughter Bristol IS actually 5 /12 months pregnant. The "mononucleosis" was apparently to cover Bristol's actual pregnancy.

So... oddly... The scandal became a real "fact" that Palin had intended to downplay. This is probably not the best way for conservatives to get to know Palin. Her daughter's status as an unwed mother serves to make the case for the dangers of pushing our children towards abstinence. It seems clear that Bristol needed serious education about using protection and being sexually "safe".

While this type of thing happens to all families, not all families in America can afford to take on the added expense of their children having babies, without public assistance costs which would have been better spent on "preventative education".

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/01/politics/horserace/entry4404184.shtml
Alaska Governor Sarah Palin has announced that her 17-year-old daughter is five months pregnan. The announcement is “intended to knock down rumors by liberal bloggers that Palin faked her own pregnancy to cover up for her child,” says the Reuters news service, which carried the first report.

In a statement, the Palin family says that Bristol Palin is “about five months pregnant” and that she intends to marry the father. “We have been blessed with five wonderful children who we love with all our heart and mean everything to us," the Palins said in the statement. "Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. As Bristol faces the responsibilities of adulthood, she knows she has our unconditional love and support.” I'm also concerned that a 17 year old is being pressured to marry, presumeably... another 17 year old. That, to me is ridiculous.

~ CB

bobber205

Sep 1, 2008, 01:46 PM

stubeef may have a heart attack....

On other news, do you think if it gets bad enough, the GOP will force McCain to do a takeback on the VP announcement?

Sky Blue

Sep 1, 2008, 01:49 PM

I'm also concerned that a 17 year old is being pressured to marry, presumeably... another 17 year old. That, to me is ridiculous.

~ CB

Because conservatives would frown on her having a baby out of wedlock.

63dot

Sep 1, 2008, 01:51 PM

This is not a good thing for her, but it's a non-issue the same way Whitewater with Clinton was and the Texas Air National Guard absentee rate was with Bush.

Let's talk about real scandals, if they exist, like Iran-Contra, Watergate, Keating scandal, and huge issues which can affect a person's ability to run a large country like the USA.

I am an Obama supporter, but if we want to go after the GOP, darn it, bring up real issues like how John McCain flip flops. Sarah Palin has one weakness in that she has almost no experience. But her mistakes, and her achievements, are miniscule for her VP candidacy and don't really warrant any talk in Washington politics.

Cleverboy

Sep 1, 2008, 01:54 PM

I wonder if it was ever taught in her school. I don't know if she went to public school or not.
LINK (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/state_data/states/alaska.html) from 2005, still researching what she was denied in HS. Alaska>Considered BEST on minor consent for contraceptives Sadly, this is about a "picture". What is Palin's public position on whether she supported the schools initiatives, or whether she may have downplayed the resources the school tried to make available to her daughter. Let's look at THOSE facts, right?
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/01/1320417.aspx
By way, as has been pointed out, Palin backed abstinence-only education during her 2006 gubernatorial race. In an Eagle Forum Alaska questionnaire, Palin gave this response to the following question:

Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?

Palin: Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support.Oh, my! So... she seems very adamant that schools not provide children with any explicit instructions. IS there more? D-Does it get worse? Yup.
NBC's Abby Livingston adds that a McCain spokesperson in May 2007 said the Arizona Republican supported abstinence-only education, too. "Sen. McCain believes the correct policy for educating young children on this subject is to promote abstinence as the only safe and responsible alternative. To do otherwise is to send a mixed signal to children that, on the one hand they should not be sexually active, but on the other here is the way to go about it. As any parent knows, ambiguity and equivocation leads to problems when it comes to teaching children right from wrong. Sen. McCain believes that there are many negative forces in today’s society that promote irresponsible and dangerous behavior to our children. The public education system should not join this chorus of moral equivocation and ambiguity.”Oh... hypocrisy, thy name is McCain/Palin.This is not a good thing for her, but it's a non-issue the same way Whitewater with Clinton was and the Texas Air National Guard absentee rate was with Bush.I'm sorry. But, Obama was BASHED repeatedly on his stand regarding sexual education, and opposing abstinence-only education. On an issue like this, you can't pledge the sanctity of marriage... and then be an adulterer in your private life. You can't push abstinence-only education... and have your family be an example of WHY people want to arm their kids with the right knowledge to protect themselves from preganancy and disease. Not ALL families can ABSORB the responsibilities of a child having a child. While I agree, that the candidates need to stick to the issues... REAL PEOPLE (like us), while not muck-raking, are entirely entitled to look at someone's personal life, and see whether they are a MODEL for their beliefs. That has been the entire discussion around Palin's qualifications and appeal. It is.

~ CB

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 01:56 PM

That's great. You do know that Palin became governor in 2006?

yes that is why I put the 2005 number in (there was a republican governor then you do realize that. It is also why I said i was still researching....

Too bad she hadn't heeded the abstinance stance, who said the condom didn't work? who said she didn't forget her pill? WE don't know, I have no need to know, you have no need to know.
What people need to know is VP Palin's stance!!! Not accusing her of stealing her daughters baby and how that is going to mess up her baby and daughter when they get older, cause Palin is trying to save her career. It is that sort of crap she has crusaded (pun intended) against for a long time.
Of course maybe she isn't "articulate or clean" enough.

[B]
I'm also concerned that a 17 year old is being pressured to marry, presumeably... another 17 year old. That, to me is ridiculous.

~ CB

Where the F did you get that she is being pressured to marry!!! What made you presume that? Your own bias? I guess she wasn't allowed to have an abortion! Presumeably.....

Sky Blue

Sep 1, 2008, 02:00 PM

What people need to know is VP Palin's stance!!!

http://eagleforumalaska.blogspot.com/2006/07/2006-gubernatorial-candidate.html

"3. Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?

SP: Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support."

MacDawg

Sep 1, 2008, 02:02 PM

It is fascinating to me how many conclusions and judgments can be made on so little information. The amount of information we don't know is overwhelming, yet the board is able to pontificate on the morality, decisions and motives of a family it knows virtually nothing about.

For instance...

Palin's pregnacy and delivery - you know very little and you are trusting every story that comes out to support your theories. We don't know what discussions she had with her doctors, what her medical history might be, what counsel and guidance she may have been given, what medical attention was available to her along the way... some of you are quick to just label her as irresponsible and trying to lose the baby.

The daughter's pregnancy - just announced today, but some are claiming they are being forced to marry, that both she and the parents are irresponsible. We don't know what went on inside the family. We don't know the conversations they had, the anguish they have felt, the decisions they have made along the way. We don't know the support that has been given or the circumstances surrounding any of this. They didn't know she would be selected to be VP, but they are handling it the best way they know how, but it is different from the scenario if she wasn't named VP. They were dealing with a private matter that is now very much public.

Scandals rock everyone's lives... Dems and Repubs
Nobody is perfect and everyone struggles with life

I certainly don't know enough information to make any kind of damning judgment
But by all means, he who is without sin... feel free to cast the first stone

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

mactastic

Sep 1, 2008, 02:04 PM

Here's the Wild-Eyed Leftist Lunatic, Kos himself, on the subject (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/1/13540/20367/584/582167):
I don't think the evidence is there to claim Trig is Bristol's son, as some have speculated, but a second rumor floating around Alaska circles turns out to have been true:

The 17-year-old daughter of Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin is pregnant, Palin said on Monday in an announcement intended to knock down rumors by liberal bloggers that Palin faked her own pregnancy to cover up for her child.

Bristol Palin, one of Alaska Gov. Palin's five children with her husband, Todd, is about five months pregnant and is going to keep the child and marry the father, the Palins said in a statement released by the campaign of Republican presidential candidate John McCain.

Maybe one more abstinence-only supporting politicians will realize the limits of such an approach. Teens will do what they will do. It's obvious Bristol would've been better served with a discussion about safe sex. Instead, she's now facing a shotgun wedding to the baby's father.
Yep. Total f'in jerk-off right there, telling everyone that he thinks Trig is Bristol's kid, just like Mr. Beeef says he is. Except he's not.

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 02:05 PM

Sadly, this is about a "picture". What is Palin's public position on whether she supported the schools initiatives, or whether she may have downplayed the resources the school tried to make available to her daughter. Let's look at THOSE facts, right?
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/01/1320417.aspx
Oh, my! So... she seems very adamant that schools not provide children with any explicit instructions. IS there more? D-Does it get worse? Yup.
Oh... hypocrisy, thy name is McCain/Palin.I'm sorry. But, Obama was BASHED repeatedly on his stand regarding sexual education, and opposing abstinence-only education. On an issue like this, you can't pledge the sanctity of marriage... and then be an adulterer in your private life. You can't push abstinence-only education... and have your family be an example of WHY people want to arm their kids with the right knowledge to protect themselves from preganancy and disease. Not ALL families can ABSORB the responsibilities of a child having a child. While I agree, that the candidates need to stick to the issues... REAL PEOPLE (like us), while not muck-raking, are entirely entitled to look at someone's personal life, and see whether they are a MODEL for their beliefs. That has been the entire discussion around Palin's qualifications and appeal. It is.

~ CB
You elude, and slither to the position that contraception was not taught, her position is abstinance, THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS WHAT WAS TAUGHT!
Your adding to the silliness with bias and ignorance.
There is no hypocrisy you nit wits, WHY NOT TEACH ABSTINANCE? gonna hurt your stock holding in Trojans?
Now find a link that shows Bristol was not allowed contraception, was only taught abstinance>then make an argument. Until then you are just as bad as the rest of those at dkos posting slander.

63dot

Sep 1, 2008, 02:06 PM

yes that is why I put the 2005 number in (there was a republican governor then you do realize that. It is also why I said i was still researching....

Too bad she hadn't heeded the abstinance stance, who said the condom didn't work? who said she didn't forget her pill? WE don't know, I have no need to know, you have no need to know.
What people need to know is VP Palin's stance!!! Not accusing her of stealing her daughters baby and how that is going to mess up her baby and daughter when they get older, cause Palin is trying to save her career. It is that sort of crap she has crusaded (pun intended) against for a long time.
Of course maybe she isn't "articulate or clean" enough.

Oddly enough, she's far more articulate than McCain. Ten years ago, McCain was elegant and on point even though I may have disagreed with him. But sad for him, and anybody aging in his situation, he is obviously not all there. I saw Reagan's personality go blank in his second term and people started wondering who the heck he was compared to the person that came on to the scene in 1980. Today's McCain is a shadow of the man who was the war hero, and political mover in the 1990s. I don't expect my intellect, passions, and memory to be so great at that age either, and we should do everything in our power to protect the elderly, but at the same time it's not fair for our country to have a man of failing intellectual capabilities. Some say he didn't do well at Annapolis, but that is a great school and just getting in and making it through is an achievement. Becoming a Senator and staying there is an achievement, too. But those are in the past and McCain seems irrelevant to today's politics the way Byrd (d), and Helms(r), had become.

While politics is not a young man's game, it's usually not the best place for someone of McCain's age and deteriorating mental condition. I usually would not care if he knew how many houses he has if that meant he is a so called rich elitist. But if he can't remember because his mind is going south, then that is something worth paying attention to since the election is coming up soon.

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 02:07 PM

Here's the Wild-Eyed Leftist Lunatic, Kos himself, on the subject (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/1/13540/20367/584/582167):

Yep. Total f'in jerk-off right there, telling everyone that he thinks Trig is Bristol's kid, just like Mr. Beeef says he is. Except he's not.

Well since it looks like she learned of contraception and abortion in school, it turns out maybe she should have only had abstinence.

yes mr kos himself just muddled into the world of HIPPA. By allowing slanderouss posts dkos has forced a mother to release confidential medical information on her minor daughter. Now that is liberty in action. Give it a round of applause!

mactastic

Sep 1, 2008, 02:13 PM

...you nit wits...
You just can't handle this kind of thing without resorting to personal insults, can you?

leekohler

Sep 1, 2008, 02:15 PM

Well since it looks like she learned of contraception and abortion in school, it turns out maybe she should have only had abstinence.

Abstinence-only education is ignorant stu. If we teach abstinence and contraception, great. I'm fine with that. BTW- who's teaching abortion? If you're going to slam others posters for being inflammatory, a good hard look in the mirror wouldn't hurt you.

mactastic

Sep 1, 2008, 02:15 PM

yes mr kos himself just muddled into the world of HIPPA. By allowing slanderouss posts dkos has forced a mother to release confidential medical information on her minor daughter. Now that is liberty in action. Give it a round of applause!
Get down off that high horse. You were among those screaming for John Edwards to release confidential medical information about what is potentially HIS child. In fact, you were engaging in the same kind of rampant speculation and baseless allegations in that case that you decry here.

Hypocrisy thy name is stubeeef.

trebblekicked

Sep 1, 2008, 02:19 PM

Well since it looks like she learned of contraception and abortion in school, it turns out maybe she should have only had abstinence.

i'm inclined to say something about bias and assumptions and how gov't can only do so much and it's ultimately the parent's responsibility...

Cleverboy

Sep 1, 2008, 02:22 PM

There is no hypocrisy you nit wits, WHY NOT TEACH ABSTINANCE? gonna hurt your stock holding in Trojans? Now find a link that shows Bristol was not allowed contraception, was only taught abstinance>then make an argument. Until then you are just as bad as the rest of those at dkos posting slander. Okay, okay. I hear what you're saying. While Palin may be against teaching explicit sex-ed, her school is rated highly for providing these services and education AND her public position has little to do with how she raises her children in the privacy of her own home. Got it. Still paints a BAD hypocritcal picture though. The amount of undulating needed to give her the benefit of the doubt is substantial.

I'm sorry, but you're the guy asking to see "live birth" evidence for someone vetted by the secret service. I mean, were you not, your objections on how things either look "good" or "bad" would be much more credible. On the other hand, I've constantly said I wanted the rumors around Palin settled VERY quickly, and luckily the McCai
n/Palin campaign obliged (which is awesome). I simply think she smacks of an absentee mother who disregards the safety of her unborn and the proper attention of her children.

I was honestly agape with amazement, and prepared to keep seeing her as "super-woman", but she's imploding before our eyes. I just hope she doesn't become vice-president. Her judgement seems very flawed, however admireable her ideals are before they meet reality.

Read the rumor list here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/johnmccain/2660800/John-McCains-running-mate-Sarah-Palin-hit-by-internet-rumours.html
I was prepared to roll-my-eyes that the "Track Palin" rumor had gone mainstream, but was instead greeted by an entirely different swirl of rumors, that really made me fear her tenure as a vice-presidential pick representing a new advancement for women. Frankly... she's an embarrassment. If he wanted a woman, McCain should have picked Kay Hutchinson. PERIOD. Otherwise, he should have bitten the bullet and picked Romney and waited for people to play the attacks between them.

Most serious for the McCain campaign are fresh claims in the "Troopergate" scandal, in which Mrs Palin stands accused of using her role as Governor of Alaska to take revenge on her brother-in-law over his divorce from her sister. An official investigation is due to report back five days before the presidential election.

It is alleged that Mrs Palin pressured and eventually sacked Walter Monegan, the Alaskan public safety commissioner, because he refused to fire Michael Wooten, a state trooper who was estranged from Mrs Palin's sister.

Mrs Palin originally denied any involvement whatsoever in moves to have Mr Wooten sacked. However, earlier this month she was forced to admit that members of her administration had made numerous phone calls to state officials on the subject.

Yet in interviews at the weekend Mr Monegan claimed that Mrs Palin had also personally spoken and e-mailed him about Mr Wooten several times.

Mrs Palin has also been challenged over her claims to have fought the Alaskan state system over corruption and wasteful spending - a key credential in her selection by Mr McCain, who is promising to do the same nationwide.

Mrs Palin has boasted of her success in killing the plan, nicknamed the "Bridge to Nowhere", to connect Ketchikan international airport with Gravina Island. Yet it has been reported that Mrs Palin actually campaigned in favour of the bridge, only changing her position later.

The Republican vice-presidential candidate has also been criticised for her behaviour on a radio talk show in January. While being interviewed about her feud with Lyda Green, the Alaskan state senate leader, Mrs Palin laughed when her interviewer described Sen Green as a "cancer" and a "b---". Sen Green is a cancer survivor.

A local newspaper described Mrs Palin's actions as "plain and simple one of the most unprofessional, childish and inexcusable performances ever seen from a politician." A recording of the interview is now circulating on websites including YouTube.

The allegations are bound to increase discomfort among Republicans about Mr McCain's choice of running mate. His main line of attack against his opponent Barack Obama - that Mr Obama is not ready to lead the country - has been undermined, by the prospect of Mrs Palin, who has been governor for only 20 months, being forced to step in if Mr McCain, who is 72 and has suffered several bouts of cancer, were unable to fulfil his duties.

Mrs Palin's apparent lack of knowledge of or experience in foreign affairs has aroused particular concern. When asked in an interview for her thoughts on the "surge" of American troops, Mr McCain's support for which is a key plank of the Republican campaign, Mrs Palin said: "I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq."

In an interview last month, when it seemed unlikely she would be offered the role by Mr McCain, Mrs Palin dismissed the job of vice-president, saying that she couldn't understand what it would involve day to day.

Even Mrs Palin's mother-in-law, Faye Palin, has said she doubts her suitability. Saying that she was still thinking of voting for Mr Obama, she said: "I'm not sure what she brings to the ticket, other than she's a woman and a conservative."

Less substantial allegations about Mrs Palin that could prove no less damaging have also emerged. Doctored photographs purporting to depict Mrs Palin, who is a former beauty queen, in various states of undress have also circulated. I mean... come on now.

~ CB

mactastic

Sep 1, 2008, 02:23 PM

And here is an example of the depth of intelligence McCain's VP exhibits (http://eagleforumalaska.blogspot.com/2006/07/2006-gubernatorial-candidate.html):
Are you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?

SP: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.
I'm starting to like McCain's choice more and more. What an effin tool. :rolleyes:

And we're supposed to believe that SHE'S the person most qualified to be POTUS in the event McCain is unable to discharge the duties of his office.

scotthayes

Sep 1, 2008, 02:23 PM

The fact her daughter is pregnant is no issue as she is going to marry the young man who got pregnant :rolleyes:

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 02:30 PM

You were among those screaming for John Edwards to release confidential medical information about what is potentially HIS child.
Hypocrisy thy name is stubeeef.

Link Please.....
BTW it is not a violation to release your own records, just to do that of others.

bobber205

Sep 1, 2008, 02:30 PM

Aren't we all forgetting that Alaska is next to Russia? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwWGS73v4_k)

Abstract

Sep 1, 2008, 02:41 PM

Palin's pregnacy and delivery - you know very little and you are trusting every story that comes out to support your theories. We don't know what discussions she had with her doctors, what her medical history might be, what counsel and guidance she may have been given, what medical attention was available to her along the way... some of you are quick to just label her as irresponsible and trying to lose the baby.

Hmmmm..... (http://www.officialwire.com/main.php?action=posted_news&rid=72656&catid=10).

However, Palin is also a government official and as such is trying to push "abstinence-only" education is spite of clear and close evidence that such a program doesn't work.

I'm sure she stresses abstinence to her children, too. I hope the education system is more effective, because the message was obviously lost.

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 02:41 PM

Abstinance-only education is ignorant stu. If we teach abstinance and contraception, great.

I have no problem with both. But every bias here presumes that she is pregnant because of her mothers stance on abstinence. that is ludicrous, you see she was taught in public schools contraception and "family planning". The point that is being proved, funny enough, is that it may have been better had she had abstinence only education!
Most here are saying this proves her position is wrong, when infact it is the opposite.
And who here knows if DAD wore a condom or not? Who here knows if she was secretly on the pill unknown to dear mommy and forget to take it.
Worse of all is that we have even gotten to this discussion as part of Sarah Palins qualifications.
This was beautiful, did no one want to comment on the sexist remark here?
I simply think she smacks of an absentee mother who disregards the safety of her unborn and the proper attention of her children.
Of course it is her fault! She is a working mom, her place is in the home! She should be home attending to the children! Nice, beautiful one. If she only stayed home and didn't work you mean...?

mactastic

Sep 1, 2008, 02:42 PM

Link Please.....
All I have to do is link to this thread wherein you posted a picture of John Edwards next to a pregnant belly asking "who's your daddy". :rolleyes:

Nice try though. BTW, when are you going to get around to providing a link showing that I think Obama is my hero, as you claimed without proof?

Oh, that's right. It's perfectly acceptable for you to run around spewing lies without proof. It's just not OK with OTHER people do it.
BTW it is not a violation to release your own records, just to do that of others.So then your whole premise goes out the window. Kos did not produce anyone's records. The John (redacted) McSame campaign did it, presumably with permission from the Quaylin family.

stubeeef

Sep 1, 2008, 02:50 PM

All I have to do is link to this thread wherein you posted a picture of John Edwards next to a pregnant belly asking "who's your daddy". :rolleyes:

Nice try though. BTW, when are you going to get around to providing a link showing that I think Obama is my hero, as you claimed without proof?

Oh, that's right. It's perfectly acceptable for you to run around spewing lies without proof. It's just not OK with OTHER people do it.
So then your whole premise goes out the window. Kos did not produce anyone's records. The John (redacted) McSame campaign did it, presumably with permission from the Quaylin family.
I wasn't even posting here when Edwards was confessing or denying which ever it was.
The post of edwards, as lee noted, was a funny. I could give a ratz anatomy about edwards fruit of the loin. I live in NC, we already know all we want about him. we elected a Republican to replace it, i mean him.
sorry, I apologize if I thought Obama was your hero, I was wrong.
Kos, by reason of support, allowing the trash to exist on their site, knowingly flamed the situation to FORCE the campaign to release information to DISPROVE a ludricous story flying around the wacked out blogeshere (mr prsi included). One that kept all issues from being seriously discussed. Had Sarah not release Bristol's information, then it would be she was lying to save her skin. She had to release them.
NOW someone get (redacted) Hussein (redacted) jr to release all of his medical records. Or any more records...

hulugu

Sep 1, 2008, 02:54 PM

It is fascinating to me how many conclusions and judgments can be made on so little information. The amount of information we don't know is overwhelming, yet the board is able to pontificate on the morality, decisions and motives of a family it knows virtually nothing about.....They didn't know she would be selected to be VP, but they are handling it the best way they know how, but it is different from the scenario if she wasn't named VP. They were dealing with a private matter that is now very much public.

Scandals rock everyone's lives... Dems and Repubs
Nobody is perfect and everyone struggles with life

I certainly don't know enough information to make any kind of damning judgment...

I have to agree with this, I'm uncomfortable with the amount of rumor-mongering that's gone on this thread. The bristly response of conservatives has been at least as damning as the abject joy from some liberals.

Furthermore, I've noticed the same thing from various 'conservatives' when it was Edwards' own possible indiscretion and unfortunately, I'm sure I'd see the same kind of thing if it were Obama's children. I'm sorry, but I think Stubeef would be a lot less forgiving if Palin was a Democrat.

This is a sad aspect of our current political culture.

scotthayes

Sep 1, 2008, 02:59 PM

I just hope the Democrats don't touch this with a barge pole. They need to just leave it alone.

So far Palin has taken Obama's so called lack of experience of the table and with this the idea that teaching abstinence works. Give it a few more weeks and the republican attack dogs will have nothing left to go after Obama with.

yg17

Sep 1, 2008, 03:06 PM

Obama: "Back off these kinds of stories" (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Obama_on_Palin.html?showall)

Well stu, there goes the theory that the Obama campaign forced some morons at DailyKos to post this crap to force Sarah Palin to release medical records :rolleyes:

Cleverboy

Sep 1, 2008, 03:07 PM

I just hope the Democrats don't touch this with a barge pole. They need to just leave it alone.Agreed. Already, one Democrat was caught on a cellphone saying that Gustav meant that "God is on our side". While the thought has been going through everyone's head, that's radioactive waste right there.
So far Palin has taken Obama's so called lack of experience of the board Actually... it hasn't. Oddly, while I can't speak for myself... Republicans have begun pushing the notion that Senators don't have "executive experience" in leadership (whether on the state or federal level). I was under the impression that "leading" such small numbers doesn't really put that much of a "win" in Palin's column, but someone would need to put it in a much deeper perspective for me to be sure on it.--and with this the idea that abstinence works. Give it a few more weeks and the republican attack dogs will have nothing left to go after Obama with. Yeah, Palin's certainly painting a less "bright" and "sunshiney" picture the longer she's looked at. We'll see how it goes. Natonal exposure is such a meat grinder. The tabloids have gotten their pound of flesh this weekend though.

~ CB

Thomas Veil

Sep 1, 2008, 03:10 PM

And here is an example of the depth of intelligence McCain's VP exhibits (http://eagleforumalaska.blogspot.com/2006/07/2006-gubernatorial-candidate.html)What an idiot. :rolleyes:

As far as Babygate goes -- I don't know what to think anymore.

We do know that Bristol Palin is pregnant (at least, according to the family).

We do know that there's another baby, Trig.

We still don't know how Sarah Palin managed to keep that pregnancy a secret until her 7th month, and even then why nobody ever saw her looking pregnant. (A six pound baby is hard to hide.)

We don't know why Bristol Palin looks three or four months pregnant in pictures supposedly taken much earlier this year. (Unless, that is, that's just belly fat.)

We don't know why Bristol was out of school with "mono" for eight months, nor why (aside from sheer stupidity) Sarah Palin took that long and arduous trip to Alaska after her water broke.

Something just doesn't track here. There are still too many loose threads, things unexplained.

I'm not saying the DailyKos story is true or untrue. I do say there's one way to prove or disprove it: produce a legal birth certificate.

And while we're at it, that doesn't track either. If this story was supposedly broken in order to "put to rest" the internet rumors...why not just produce Trig's birth certificate? Why put Bristol through the stress of a public announcement about her pregnancy?

iGary

Sep 1, 2008, 03:10 PM

Has this been posted? (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/01/palin.daughter/index.html)

Lord Blackadder

Sep 1, 2008, 03:16 PM

Obama: "Back off these kinds of stories" (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Obama_on_Palin.html?showall)

Well done, Obama. This kind of mudslinging, regardless of the facts, should be well beneath the candidates. Keep it political.

scotthayes

Sep 1, 2008, 03:17 PM

Actually... it hasn't. Oddly, while I can't speak for myself... Republicans have begun pushing the notion that Senators don't have "executive experience" in leadership (whether on the state or federal level). I was under the impression that "leading" such small numbers doesn't really put that much of a "win" in Palin's column, but someone would need to put it in a much deeper perspective for me to be sure on it. Yeah, Palin's certainly painting a less "bright" and "sunshiney" picture the longer she's looked at. We'll see how it goes. Natonal exposure is such a meat grinder. The tabloids have gotten their pound of flesh this weekend though.

~ CB

Guess we see things totally different in the UK. As we don't have governors and only one or two directly elected mayors we really don't consider that when it comes to our Prime Minister. In fact we don't strictly get to directly vote for our PM. As it stands at the moment the man most likely to become our next PM has only been an MP since 2001 and not many are saying he doesn't have the experience to become PM

As somebody mentioned earlier in this thread. At this moment in time there are only 4 people on the planet who have the relevant experience to become president.

Cleverboy

Sep 1, 2008, 03:19 PM

Something just doesn't track here. There are still too many loose threads, things unexplained. I'm not saying the DailyKos story is true or untrue. I do say there's one way to prove or disprove it: produce a legal birth certificate. Now that the facts are clearly out there, I think its DEFINTIELY time to move on. The conclusions are all self-evident at this point, and dwelling on this issue is probably not the best for everyone involved. I think its more than enough to have the information as part of the public's knowledge about Palin's situation. I don't think anything more needs to be belabored (no pun intended).

Obama has released a statement:
MONROE, MI.--Barack Obama Monday angrily fired back at the McCain campaign for suggesting his presidential operation had any connection to bloggers who have been chasing rumors about GOP vice presidential pick Sarah Palin.

Obama walking Sept 1 2008 small.jpg

An unnamed McCain staffer earlier today that websites, some with "Barack Obama's name on them" had been spreading rumors that Palin's daughter, Bristol, 17, is the true mother of Palin's infant son, Trig.

"I am offended by that statement," Obama told reporters here."There's no evidence at all that any of this involved us."

Obama said "our people are not involved in any way on this." He added that if he discoverd any involvment by a member of his campaign "they'd be fired."

His words came on the day when the McCain campaign announced that Bristol was pregnant and would keep the baby and marry the father--ostensibly in an effort to quell the internet gossip.

Obama used the moment to reiterate his belief that "people's families are off-limits and children are especially off-limits."This shouldn't be part of our politics, it has no relevance to governor Palin's performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president," he said. "And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories. You know my mother had me when she was 18. And how family deals with issues and teenage children that shouldn't be the topic of our politics and I hope that anybody who is supporting me understands that is off limits." http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/09/obama_blasts_mccain_camp_over.html

Again, it's more than enough that most of what was previously not known, has been clearly settled and given their inevitable spin.

~ CB

bobber205

Sep 1, 2008, 03:23 PM

I have no problem with both. But every bias here presumes that she is pregnant because of her mothers stance on abstinence. that is ludicrous, you see she was taught in public schools contraception and "family planning". The point that is being proved, funny enough, is that it may have been better had she had abstinence only education!
Most here are saying this proves her position is wrong, when infact it is the opposite.
And who here knows if DAD wore a condom or not? Who here knows if she was secretly on the pill unknown to dear mommy and forget to take it.
Worse of all is that we have even gotten to this discussion as part of Sarah Palins qualifications.
This was beautiful, did no one want to comment on the sexist remark here?

Of course it is her fault! She is a working mom, her place is in the home! She should be home attending to the children! Nice, beautiful one. If she only stayed home and didn't work you mean...?

Whoa. stubeef is losing his/her sh**. :D

We've been saying this was true all along and then when more evidence pours in you start these types of arguments? Of course she shouldnt' stay at home. :rolleyes:

I've known plenty of children who had stay at home moms that got pregnant at 16 or 17.

Bad parenting is bad parenting no matter how much time you spend at home, though always being away doesn't help any.

Oh man. Now that it's looking more sure, it's time to move on. Of course, you've probably stopped receiving emergency talking points report faxes (thanks Colbert).

skunk

Sep 1, 2008, 03:23 PM

hulugu

Sep 1, 2008, 03:29 PM

Lord Blackadder

Sep 1, 2008, 03:31 PM

és:

Sep 1, 2008, 03:35 PM

Considering that she's a republic, do people think that this might lose them some votes from the Christian right?

Thomas Veil

Sep 1, 2008, 03:51 PM

Now that the facts are clearly out there, I think its DEFINTIELY time to move on.Understood but respectfully disagreed. Thanks to W, I've had my fill of unanswered questions and dangling details. If Palin's untrustworthy, I want to know now, not after seeing her inaugurated.

Queso

Sep 1, 2008, 04:30 PM

The real tragedy here is that the leadership of the free world is being chosen on the basis of savage bigotry whichever way it goes. Both Sarah Palin and Barack Obama are the objects of such venomous hatred that it is hard to see what relevance anybody's stance on the issues of the day has, if any.
Well, nobody can say they didn't see it coming. Eight years of division under Bush/Cheney means that the next Presidency is utterly crucial to both parties. Whoever comes next gets to pull America back together, with every achievement marked as glory and every mistake blamed on the current incumbents. That's the sort of conditions that could see the victorious party staying in power for a couple of decades.

OutThere

Sep 1, 2008, 04:33 PM

Understood but respectfully disagreed. Thanks to W, I've had my fill of unanswered questions and dangling details. If Palin's untrustworthy, I want to know now, not after seeing her inaugurated.

I don't like the loose ends either, but admitting Bristol's current pregnancy is a sure way to sweep everything off the table...we'll see how it plays out I guess. I still don't trust Palin and would be mighty scared to see her running the country if McCain kicked it.

Cleverboy

Sep 1, 2008, 05:18 PM

There was a really good Newsweek article that fleshed out all the points that will be discussed in the press and public eye. VERY good job. Question and Answer format. I think there may well be too much Sarah Palin information coming out all at once. This is going to be a MAJOR challenge to the GOP. NEWSWEEK's Sarah Kliff spoke with Barabara Kellerman, a professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, who studies in women and politics about how this will play out with voters.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/156602

How do you think the news of Palin's pregnant teenage daughter is going to play with voters?
Palin has, in the past, been a supporter of abstinence education. Do you think her daughter's pregnancy makes it more difficult for her to support that position?
How much did Hilary's campaign do that already? What's different about Palin?
Many candidates for presidents have run as fathers. What's different about being a mother?
There have been some questions about whether Palin should be running for office in the first place, given that she has such young children. Do you think her daughter's pregnancy is going to raise more of those questions, about Palin putting her career before her parenting responsibilities?
How do you think a male candidate would be judged in a similar situation to this?
Where will Americans place the blame for the pregnancy? Does it go to Palin and her parenting skills?
Many of the people on these forums have touched on these same points. They end on this sober note:
If Sarah Palin turns out to be more complicated than the attractive Alaska governor, the person who is likely to get most of the blame is…McCain. There will be the charge that the campaign didn't vet her properly. They will leap to blame the candidate for president more than they will focus on Palin.

Also, if things really unravel, she's a tough customer. I've warned friends and colleagues. She's very articulate and very tough and obliviously prepared to take the slings and arrows. I'd be slow to underestimate her. If something does go wrong, if she does seem less appetizing, then it will be McCain and his campaign staff that are ultimately going to be judged the most.

~ CB

bobber205

Sep 1, 2008, 05:23 PM

That's why it is critical that the campaigns avoid supporting or endorsing these kinds of "stories" and stick to the issues. It's a hackneyed phrase but so relevant here.

This election is too important to allow personal hatred a prominent place in the decision making process.

Please. We're not hating her because she's a woman, we're hating her because of the shallow reason she was pickd and her 100% lack of any relevant experience or good judgment.

rdowns

Sep 1, 2008, 05:47 PM

Wanna bet the Reps are beside themselves that Gustav lost its strength? More time for the media to focus on Sarah.

bobber205

Sep 1, 2008, 06:34 PM

Wanna bet the Reps are beside themselves that Gustav lost its strength? More time for the media to focus on Sarah.

Yeah. It didn't quite penetrate the US like we would have wanted it to. ;)

Prof.

Sep 1, 2008, 06:34 PM

I just came across the whole "Palin's daughter is pregnant" thing soooo...

Palin's daughter is preggers!?!?!?!?!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Great! What is that gonna say about American teens??? Another stupid teen who got knocked-up by her BF.:rolleyes:

Counterfit

Sep 1, 2008, 06:45 PM

Of course it is her fault! She is a working mom, her place is in the home! She should be home attending to the children! Nice, beautiful one. If she only stayed home and didn't work you mean...?

At that point in time, her place was in a nearby hospital, not an airplane taking a 3000 mile flight coming back from a speech.

obeygiant

Sep 1, 2008, 09:03 PM

It's nearly as bad as the pure lies posted by the Daily Kos this weekend. Which coincidentally is everyone's favorite website. It's a very dark weekend for the Lefty Blogger World.

Cleverboy

Sep 1, 2008, 09:22 PM

It's nearly as bad as the pure lies posted by the Daily Kos this weekend. Which coincidentally is everyone's favorite website. It's a very dark weekend for the Lefty Blogger World. It's going to be a PAINFUL 60 days trying to separate TRULY sexist comments (like the one you're responding to) from the comments the GOP tries to portray as sexist. The Clinton campaign NEVER did what I'm seeing right now. James Carville, an adamant Clinton supporter is questioning Palin's experience very vigorously... he shows a picture of the Wasilla Town Hall, and instantly the GOP commenter lights in by saying that the nation's women will find these statements highly offensive. He's sputtering and looking at her incredulously. It was RIDICULOUS.

~ CB

yg17

Sep 1, 2008, 09:33 PM

It's nearly as bad as the pure lies posted by the Daily Kos this weekend. Which coincidentally is everyone's favorite website. It's a very dark weekend for the Lefty Blogger World.

Sorry, but I have to defend one of my favorite websites. That crap was NEVER tolerated at Daily Kos. But with a website with thousands of active members, it's impossible to prevent that kind of stuff. But it was completely unacceptable and several members were banned for posting it.

obeygiant

Sep 1, 2008, 09:35 PM

It's going to be a PAINFUL 60 days trying to separate TRULY sexist comments (like the one you're responding to) from the comments the GOP tries to portray as sexist. The Clinton campaign NEVER did what I'm seeing right now. James Carville, an adamant Clinton supporter is questioning Palin's experience very vigorously... he shows a picture of the Wasilla Town Hall, and instantly the GOP commenter lights in by saying that the nation's women will find these statements highly offensive. He's sputtering and looking at her incredulously. It was RIDICULOUS.

~ CB

I like your style CB. Turning the issue of spewing sewage from the Daily Kos to "How do we deal with the GOP propaganda machine?" You certainly are clever, I'll give you that. :)

obeygiant

Sep 1, 2008, 09:42 PM

Sorry, but I have to defend one of my favorite websites. That crap was NEVER tolerated at Daily Kos. But with a website with thousands of active members, it's impossible to prevent that kind of stuff. But it was completely unacceptable and several members were banned for posting it.

You never knew Kos was bush league? :eek: Have you found a retraction and an apology on their site yet? If so please post it. If not, just keep a little flag up in your mind that they propagate lies and bask in their attention like pigs in ****. ;)

Cleverboy

Sep 1, 2008, 09:49 PM

I like your style CB. Turning the issue of spewing sewage from the Daily Kos to "How do we deal with the GOP propaganda machine?" You certainly are clever, I'll give you that. :) Meh. I'm more about "How do we further the cause of civil, issues-based discussions in the United States." than mindlessly berating the GOP. Corruption, hypocrisy, searing scandal, coordinated obfuscation. Not a fan. But, ya gotta prove it.

I've long lamented that the BBC, as a news organization has been far more vigorous in holding interviewees feet to the fire, and ensuring that their listeners get straight answers to the questions they have.

Whether its a Democrat or a Republican, I have little interest in bad actors who can't address a direct question without changing the topic. I was embarrassed at Howard Dean on the Daily Show last week. He made this PATHETIC joke about McCain having 7 houses (out of no where) and then tried to laugh at it, because like me, John Stewart was looking at him like he had three heads.

~ CB

mactastic

Sep 1, 2008, 09:57 PM

Lord Blackadder

Sep 1, 2008, 10:09 PM

So which is it Sarah? Alaska first, or America first?

Indeed. The whole pregnancy thing pales in comparison to this and the "founding fathers" gaffe. I mean, she's a pretty high official and she's inventing US history to justify her opinions! :eek:

Cleverboy

Sep 1, 2008, 10:10 PM

At this point it's fair to ask... which scandal are we talking about?What? I'm offended personally that you would even bring up Todd Palin's 1986 DUI arrest... I... oh, sorry. You didn't say anything about that. 'Cause I was going to say that that has nothing to do with anything. :p

It will blow over like a host of these other details, but the major problem is mostly that there is a COMPRESSED time schedule happening, and people are using this time to "get to know" her in short-order. It's making every little "chink" look like some kind of mushroom cloud of negativity (as we saw with Obama). McCain warned her during their 15 minute conversation early on, that she would face an enormous amount of scrutiny, but she's a trooper (no, that's just a figure of speech).

I keep seeing the Republican cheerleaders grinning manically and saying, "You just WAIT 'til America really gets to know Sarah Palin!" Here's hoping its more and more good. Right now, people are starting to give them SCARY focus groups.

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/08/focusedthe_sequel.html

~ CB

hulugu

Sep 1, 2008, 10:32 PM

...It's nearly as bad as the pure lies posted by the Daily Kos this weekend. Which coincidentally is everyone's favorite website. It's a very dark weekend for the Lefty Blogger World.

I didn't know you liked Daily Kos too. :p

Ntombi

Sep 1, 2008, 11:12 PM

At this point it's fair to ask... which scandal are we talking about? For some reason, the completely innocent Sarah Palin feels the need to lawyer up over the Troopergate scandal. Can't imagine why, as she so obviously has nothing to hide.

Then there's her knocked-up daughter. Which, unless evidence of Palin lying surfaces, will be nothing more than a footnote to the campaign.

Then there's the issue of her total lack of a grasp of history. She thinks the Founding Fathers put "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Which has to be about the stupidest comment I've heard in a long time -- and that includes comments from this forum.

And it also turns out now that Palin and her husband were members of the AIP -- the Alaska Independence Party, which advocates secession from the Union, and has the slogan "Alaska First, Alaska Always". Kind of puts McCain's slogan of "country first" in as much question as his vetting process.

So which is it Sarah? Alaska first, or America first?Good post.

I'm done with the babies, I'm not sure TrooperGate has legs, and I never cared about the 20+ year old DUI of someone who's not even the candidate, but I do care about the real issues, including her lack of belief in human-made global warming, her stance against a woman's right to have the ultimate control over her own body in any situation, her support of creationism being taught in schools, and her demonstrated lack of understanding of the history of this country.

But beyond all that, even if she were the perfect candidate, she's still running for VP, not president. I don't want McCain to be president. Period. Even if he chose Hillary as his running mate, I'd be voting for Obama-Biden.

yg17

Sep 1, 2008, 11:15 PM

You never knew Kos was bush league? :eek: Have you found a retraction and an apology on their site yet? If so please post it. If not, just keep a little flag up in your mind that they propagate lies and bask in their attention like pigs in ****. ;)

No, there is no apology or retraction because it's not necessary. ANYONE can post a diary on dKos, and many people did post that crap. Never did Markos or any of the other dKos staff members post that garbage.

If I post something stupid on this site, I wouldn't expect arn to issue an apology and neither would I expect Markos. The people who should be posting apologies are the ones who propagated that lie, but most of those people were banned from the site, so they can't post one, not that they would anyways.

63dot

Sep 1, 2008, 11:38 PM

Sadly, this is about a "picture". What is Palin's public position on whether she supported the schools initiatives, or whether she may have downplayed the resources the school tried to make available to her daughter. Let's look at THOSE facts, right?
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/01/1320417.aspx
Oh, my! So... she seems very adamant that schools not provide children with any explicit instructions. IS there more? D-Does it get worse? Yup.
Oh... hypocrisy, thy name is McCain/Palin.I'm sorry. But, Obama was BASHED repeatedly on his stand regarding sexual education, and opposing abstinence-only education. On an issue like this, you can't pledge the sanctity of marriage... and then be an adulterer in your private life. You can't push abstinence-only education... and have your family be an example of WHY people want to arm their kids with the right knowledge to protect themselves from preganancy and disease. Not ALL families can ABSORB the responsibilities of a child having a child. While I agree, that the candidates need to stick to the issues... REAL PEOPLE (like us), while not muck-raking, are entirely entitled to look at someone's personal life, and see whether they are a MODEL for their beliefs. That has been the entire discussion around Palin's qualifications and appeal. It is.

~ CB

We are not voting for role models. We are looking for the best ticket with the most realistic, and best answers to the issues of the economy, gas prices, and the war in Iraq. If we wanted a role model, we could have voted for environmentalist Al Gore or the Reverend Governor Huckabee since they would both be on many goody two shoes list. But we are faced with Obama or McCain and the parties they represent and the major issues, not minor ones like if so and so can handle their teenager.

bobber205

Sep 2, 2008, 12:04 AM

Cleverboy

Sep 2, 2008, 12:10 AM

We are not voting for role models. We are looking for the best ticket with the most realistic, and best answers to the issues of the economy, gas prices, and the war in Iraq. If we wanted a role model, we could have voted for environmentalist Al Gore or the Reverend Governor Huckabee since they would both be on many goody two shoes list. But we are faced with Obama or McCain and the parties they represent and the major issues, not minor ones like if so and so can handle their teenager.I've already said that delving into the details of the story regarding her teenagers choices, should be filed away, and that we should move on from that story.

Unfortunately, an entirely SEPARATE THING, is how the discussion of these issues have entered public debate. The news is quickly becoming the news, and it is legitimately making people question Palin's support for her policies. For instance, Dick Cheney's daughter came out to them, and later got pregnant, and this entered the public discussion. When Kerry and Edwards mentioned her sexual orientation for political points, they came off looking like *******s, as they should. This is different than wondering, as any normal person would... whether the Cheneys treat their daughter with love, or whether they've rejected her. That becomes a question of character... and people, outside of examining the daughter... are curious about the "character" of the politician they want to lead them.

If we found out that the Palin's son is gay, and is getting married to his lover... their son WOULD NOT be the story, but Sarah Palin's handling of this fact would certainly be at issue... considering her stand against gay marriage and insurance benefits for civil unions. Its one thing to have a political position, but its something else to live with the fall-out, and how you handle that reality defines the public perception of your character.

Role model? No one's talking about role models. There needs to be consistency though.

~ CB

Cleverboy

Sep 2, 2008, 12:14 AM

Thought I should post this link here.
Turns out their daughter had a photobucket account with some incriminating evidence. :)OMG, could you please take this down? PLEASE? People need to NOT RUIN this young girls life! PLEASE STOP!

~ CB

63dot

Sep 2, 2008, 12:24 AM

I've already said that delving into the details of the story regarding her teenagers choices, should be filed away, and that we should move on from that story.

Unfortunately, an entirely SEPARATE THING, is how the discussion of these issues have entered public debate. The news is quickly becoming the news, and it is legitimately making people question Palin's support for her policies. For instance, Dick Cheney's daughter came out to them, and later got pregnant, and this entered the public discussion. When Kerry and Edwards mentioned her sexual orientation for political points, they came off looking like *******s, as they should. This is different than wondering, as any normal person would... whether the Cheneys treat their daughter with love, or whether they've rejected her. That becomes a question of character... and people, outside of examining the daughter... are curious about the "character" of the politician they want to lead them.

If we found out that the Palin's son is gay, and is getting married to his lover... their son WOULD NOT be the story, but Sarah Palin's handling of this fact would certainly be at issue... considering her stand against gay marriage and insurance benefits for civil unions. Its one thing to have a political position, but its something else to live with the fall-out, and how you handle that reality defines the public perception of your character.

Role model? No one's talking about role models. There needs to be consistency though.

~ CB

Consistency in what? Being a role model?

What does this have to do with the major issue of the stupid mess in Iraq that Bush got us into? How will this have any relevance to the mass deregulation the President has had in regards to carbon emissions? How will this pay down the defecit? How will this lower the price of gasoline? How can this affect the potentially hazardous situation that can attack the Gulf States? How does this stop terrorism? Did I leave out any major issues?

What major issue are you talking about?
Parenting?
Looking chaste as a Christian?
Looking chaste as a conservative republican?

Is there anyone reaching out to the daughter and her right to privacy? In law school, one of the most important cases decided we analyzed by the Supreme Court was Roe v. Wade, and this had nothing to do with sexual behavior. The core legal issue was privacy. And so should be with Palin's daughter.

The issue is that Palin, whether a good parent or not, has no business being the President if somehow McCain wins and dies or becomes incapacitated. Even Condi Rice, who I detest politially, would be far safer as a VP choice. Heck, even the neocon crazy Ann Coulter knows tons about politcs over PTA supermom, councilwoman, small town mayor Palin of Alaska (listing her previous political experience besides being a newbie governor of a state that has fewer people than San Francisco, California.)

bobber205

Sep 2, 2008, 12:33 AM

OMG, could you please take this down? PLEASE? People need to NOT RUIN this young girls life! PLEASE STOP!

~ CB

Posting this on a forum does nothing to ruin the girls life.
As soon as we get an honest answer from Palin that expains wth is going on, we'll all stop.

:)

hulugu

Sep 2, 2008, 12:36 AM

....
Is there anyone reaching out to the daughter and her right to privacy? In law school, one of the most important cases decided we analyzed by the Supreme Court was Roe v. Wade, and this had nothing to do with sexual behavior. The core legal issue was privacy. And so should be with Palin's daughter....

I agree. This thread, and others like it, have clearly gone to a dark place. bobber205, I'm looking at you.

The issue is that Palin, whether a good parent or not, has no business being the President if somehow McCain wins and dies or becomes incapacitated.

Exactly. Let's talk about Palin's press-release regarding the 'Bridge to Nowhere' or her lack of experience.

....Heck, even the neocon crazy Ann Coulter knows tons about politcs...

I don't know if I'd go that far.

hulugu

Sep 2, 2008, 12:38 AM

Posting this on a forum does nothing to ruin the girls life.
As soon as we get an honest answer from Palin that expains wth is going on, we'll all stop.

:)

Digging around in her photobucket (or equivalent) accounts is a complete breach of privacy for a 17-year-old girl. I'm really uncomfortable with pictures of her being paraded around with some notion of her mother's hypocrisy as the justification.

Ntombi

Sep 2, 2008, 12:40 AM

Digging around in her photobucket (or equivalent) accounts is a complete breach of privacy for a 17-year-old girl. I'm really uncomfortable with pictures of her being paraded around with some notion of her mother's hypocrisy as the justification.
Me too. That's not cool.

Cleverboy

Sep 2, 2008, 12:45 AM

Posting this on a forum does nothing to ruin the girls life. As soon as we get an honest answer from Palin that expains wth is going on, we'll all stop.
:)Guess there is no threading the needle. 63dot, hulugu, you guys are much wiser than I. I can see the difference, but if other people can't control themselves on this issue, I'm going to go ahead and completely avoid this entire topic like the plague from this point on. This is beyond the pale to think using photos of a 17 year old as fodder is just the end.

~ CB

63dot

Sep 2, 2008, 12:51 AM

I don't know if I'd go that far.

Ann Coulter stands for everything, almost, that I am against. But at least she is a lawyer and knows politics. Sometimes, mostly, she falls into the conservative camp, but other times she takes the liberal stance and attacks McCain for very good reasons. If Palin becomes VP, she becomes a Congressional leader (Senate President) and this is no small job being a tie breaker position in legislation, treaties, and appointments of judges and cabinet members. Could you imagine that? This is really scary. The Senate has never been so tenously close and delicate as in these times.

I would rather have a bad, but experienced person, in politics and the law, instead of a complete know nothing in a position as high as the VP. Let Palin be Governor a full term, and win re-election and see what comes up and how to handle political issues. Then the GOP should consider her. One shouldn't have to be in politics for 30 years and be a white male, but Palin as a choice is insane, especially in regards to McCain's age and higher probability of death or incapacity.

bobber205

Sep 2, 2008, 01:06 AM

hulugu

Sep 2, 2008, 01:08 AM

Ann Coulter stands for everything, almost, that I am against. But at least she is a lawyer and knows politics. Sometimes, mostly, she falls into the conservative camp, but other times she takes the liberal stance and attacks McCain for very good reasons. If Palin becomes VP, she becomes a Congressional leader (Senate President) and this is no small job being a tie breaker position in legislation, treaties, and appointments of judges and cabinet members. Could you imagine that? This is really scary. The Senate has never been so tenously close and delicate as in these times.

I would rather have a bad, but experienced person, in politics and the law, instead of a complete know nothing in a position as high as the VP. Let Palin be Governor a full term, and win re-election and see what comes up and how to handle political issues. Then the GOP should consider her. One shouldn't have to be in politics for 30 years and be a white male, but Palin as a choice is insane, especially in regards to McCain's age and higher probability of death or incapacity.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on Coulter. I think she's a dangerous idiot with a fundamental love of fascism and an abject hatred of her political opposition. That's not someone who should be in charge of a McDonalds much less president pro tempore of the Senate.

That said, I agree with you about Palin. I think she's far too inexperienced to be VP. She's already proven to have a tin-ear with her "what does a VP do?" statement and she needs to buff up on her history (little hint, Governor Palin, the Pledge of Allegiance was created in 1892 and the "God" part was added in 1952), but she may be a viable conservative candidate in 2012, at the earliest.

hulugu

Sep 2, 2008, 01:10 AM

I didn't do the digging. Just the posting. ;)

But yeah, I should stop. It's just the irony is so thick it's hilarious (in a bad way).

I know you didn't do the digging, but I think spreading the link around is tantamount to being an accomplice. Let's focus on Palin, the candidate.

63dot

Sep 2, 2008, 01:18 AM

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on Coulter. I think she's a dangerous idiot with a fundamental love of fascism and an abject hatred of her political opposition. That's not someone who should be in charge of a McDonalds much less president pro tempore of the Senate.

That said, I agree with you about Palin. I think she's far too inexperienced to be VP. She's already proven to have a tin-ear with her "what does a VP do?" statement and she needs to buff up on her history (little hint, Governor Palin, the Pledge of Allegiance was created in 1892 and the "God" part was added in 1952), but she may be a viable conservative candidate in 2012, at the earliest.

Palin, due to her extreme inexperience, is a much bigger danger. She can be negatively influenced in ways she would not know. Any bad, or ultra conservative VP like a possible Coulter, Rush, Rove, or Condi have a long track record and reasoning for their points of view. Palin has not had the time to possibly form a point of view since national, or even state politics, has not been her day to day existence for a long time. We know what an experienced liberal would do in the White House and we know what an experienced conservative would do in the White House, and oddly enough, they are really not all that different. Experienced politicos/politicians know at the end of the day that compromise, even privately, is what gets things done. It takes time to know how to compromise. What are you going to do when PTA mom sits in the oval office? It is too scary to imagine.

It makes for a great script for a cute disney comedy starring someone like Tina Fey, who would be a great casting decision to play a suddenly made President Palin, but not for the reality of the leader of the last remaining world superpower.

stevento

Sep 2, 2008, 01:19 AM

Thought I should post this link here.

Turns out their daughter had a photobucket account with some incriminating evidence. :)

http://www.stupidsheeple.com/index.php/2008090140/latest/bristol-palin-gone-wild.html

oil on the fire below :D

[i removed the picture]

that is low. Obama was right when he said that is "off limits" (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/01/obama.palin/index.html)
We need to start focusing on the real Palin issues such as, she wanted Alaska to succeed from Union (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/members-of-frin.html), and she supported the bridge to nowhere whilst claiming to cut pork barrel spending.
she was for it before she was against it: link (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CVN_BRIDGE_TO_NOWHERE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-08-31-15-28-19)

zap2

Sep 2, 2008, 01:44 AM

While I agree we should keep her family out of this, there easier ways to hit McCain/Palin, on the issues.

Although I feel like this under scores how her(i think she support "just avoid sex" )policies of teen pregnancy doesn't work.

Education, teach save sex. Its gonna happen, lets make it save.

Also I was reading up on Palin today, wow...her stance on international policy is "have a strong miliarty"

TheQuestion

Sep 2, 2008, 01:46 AM

Why is nobody talking about the real issues against Palin? Troopergate? She didn't even need a reason to fire Monegan, who previously fired by Anchorage mayor Mark Begich, also for no reason. Babygate? A footnote, now that Obama has agreed families are off limits.

Palin claims to be a fiscal conservative, but approved the largest budgets in the history of Alaska. She has increased taxes on the oil industry 400% - some fiscal conservative. She claims to be a social conservative, yet didn't veto a bill that would give benefits to same sex couples. When a state-owned dairy went into the red, she fired an oversight agricultural commission that tried to shut it down. She then appointed some high school buddies to a new oversight board which kept the dairy running for 6 months while it continued to bleed money. Total cost to Alaska tax payers, over $2 million.

Also, what about the dope factor? The Mat-Su valley is the dope capital of the pacific northwest. We're huge dopers up here. Just about everyone grows weed to supplement their income. What did Palin do about this in the 1990s? Nothing, cause the crystal meth industry also exploded here during that time. Why does the AK govt continue to give farm subsidies to those who just use it to grow pot?

OutThere

Sep 2, 2008, 01:55 AM

I know you didn't do the digging, but I think spreading the link around is tantamount to being an accomplice. Let's focus on Palin, the hypocrite.

fixed.

63dot

Sep 2, 2008, 04:31 AM

solvs

Sep 2, 2008, 05:55 AM

you nit wits
Lord this forum is moist and dark, a perfect petree dish for slime and slander.
I think I clean my basement, some of you posters ought to open a window shade and let the light in....
we elected a Republican to replace it, i mean him.
Dear God stu, what in the heck happened to you?

NOW someone get (redacted) Hussein (redacted) jr to release all of his medical records. Or any more records...
Just because the press isn't covering it, doesn't mean it's not there. McCain was the one who had pages and pages of medical info he only released briefly for the media to mull over where it was, no pics or copies allowed, nothing allowed to leave the room. Do you really want to go there? And you really need to stop with the Hussein Jr. thing. We get that it's his middle name, but the way you're putting it is obvious and does nothing to further the conversation.

Someone posted this on Kos (not Kos himself), and it's now been debunked. By proving that she is pregnant. Obama himself has, again, said family should be off limits and that this is no different. Even at the beginning of the thread, people were expressing some doubt and will now admit it's not true. Meanwhile, you're perfectly fine with everything that was said about Obama, even if not true and slanderous, even highlighting his middle name as some kind of smear. But we're all the partisan ones, and you aren't? Ok.

Maybe you can call us all names some more, because that'll make your point better. :rolleyes:

Agreed. Already, one Democrat was caught on a cellphone saying that Gustav meant that "God is on our side". While the thought has been going through everyone's head, that's radioactive waste right there.
And yet a preacher was hoping to have rain kill the DNC convention. Granted it was removed and decried by some, but no one really made a big deal out of it. As with this, why is it ok for the GOP to do things like this, but not the Dems? See McCain's black baby "smear" in '00.

The real tragedy here is that the leadership of the free world is being chosen on the basis of savage bigotry whichever way it goes. Both Sarah Palin and Barack Obama are the objects of such venomous hatred that it is hard to see what relevance anybody's stance on the issues of the day has, if any.
There is little for the GOP at this point, except for a few social issues that are still somewhat controversial, and maybe a little fearmongering about terrorism and the like, so they need the smears. The Dems really don't, but no one is listening to what they're saying because it's not that interesting and doesn't get the ratings, so the media doesn't really cover it. Especially the way they would something more interesting. But the Dems love hypocrisy, and they want the coverage, so some will do things like this. Problem being when it turns out to not be true. Even if it's partially true, as I alluded to above, the bar is higher for the Dems. The GOP can pretty much say whatever they want, and maybe get a slap on the wrist. Sometimes it's merely treated as fact (see Gore and the claims of him inventing the internet). The Dems will say they're taking the high road, which is code for doing nothing and losing. Then they'll scratch their heads and wonder why they lost again, or wait for the GOP to massively screw up and win by default, as they did in '06.

Obama, and a lot of others, made some really good points during the convention, but those are quickly lost when something more interesting comes along.

Considering that she's a republic, do people think that this might lose them some votes from the Christian right?
You'd think, but it's ok when you're a Republican (IOIYAR).

I've already heard how brave she is for keeping the baby instead of aborting it. That's the spin. It'll go from there.

You never knew Kos was bush league? :eek: Have you found a retraction and an apology on their site yet? If so please post it. If not, just keep a little flag up in your mind that they propagate lies and bask in their attention like pigs in ****. ;)
Again, Kos didn't report it apparently. It's an open site, kinda like this one. He did post something someone linked to a few pages ago, and not only closed some of the thread about it, but even banned people who keep going with it. Especially now that it's been disproved. Because she actually is pregnant.

I'm not sure, I only link to them when they come up on another site, and prefer the fact based ones. Not that this wasn't believable. I mean, they had a lot of evidence. As it stands, her kid is pregnant, and she did make a lot of bad decisions when the time came.

Evangelion

Sep 2, 2008, 06:10 AM

I'm not sure that should I be scared or amused by the fact that the most powerful country on this planet elects it's leaders this way... There's no real debate or politicing, there's just mudslinging, scandals, strange nominees (I would call mother of teenage-mother "strange", but then again, 15-17 year old mothers seem to be the norm in USA)....

rdowns

Sep 2, 2008, 06:16 AM

Evangelion

Sep 2, 2008, 07:03 AM

How nice of you to stop by to sling some mud. :rolleyes:

Is that mudslinging? I mean, I'm commenting on actual campaigning going on in the USA. I HAVE seen the election-ads that run in USA. They seem to be about making the opponent look like vicious baby-killer or something, as opposed to telling what the candidate they are advocating stands for. I see very little real debate and discussion.

As to teen-mothers.... Well, they do seem to be the norm in USA. Teen-pregancies are a lot more common in USA than they are in Europe for example. I fail to see the problem in stating that fact, especially since it's related to the subject at hand.

Yes, I find it amusing and scary to see the elections in USA being in the state they are in. Whoever runs USA has big implications on rest of the world. And to see the elections being decided not by intelligent discussion and debates, but with scaremongering and mudslinging is.... well, scary.

Am I saying here that USA sucks? No, I'm not. What I AM saying is that the political landscape in USA sucks. You have two parties that are (for all intents and purposes) 95% identical. You have candidates that spend their time talking about things that are in the end marginal.

Obama does seem a bit better in this area, but he too represents a party that is practically identical to "the other party".

atszyman

Sep 2, 2008, 08:20 AM

I would much rather have a guy that can change his mind, then a guy that wont tell you whats on his mind

So I take it you voted for Kerry then?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind when new information comes in, but for some reason it was bad in 2004 when Kerry did it and now that a GOP candidate has changed his mind more than a few times it's a good thing?

fotografica

Sep 2, 2008, 09:07 AM

Apparently,Evangelicals everywhere are doing cartwheels:
Evangelicals rally behind Palin after pregnancy news
ST. PAUL, Minnesota (CNN) -- Key evangelical leaders rallied to Sarah Palin's support Monday amid news that her 17-year-old daughter, Bristol, was having a child.
"Before, they were excited about her, with the Down syndrome baby," conservative, anti-tax activist Grover Norquist said. "But now with this, they are over the moon. It reinforces the fact that this family lives its pro-life values."
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/01/palin.evangelicals/index.html

solvs

Sep 2, 2008, 09:51 AM

Apparently,Evangelicals everywhere are doing cartwheels

I hate that I was right about that.

If this was happening to Obama if he had a 16-17 year old Daughter, this would be such a different story.

63dot

Sep 2, 2008, 09:58 AM

Apparently,Evangelicals everywhere are doing cartwheels:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/01/palin.evangelicals/index.html

I like the way Dobson sounds in this article, but I wish he would keep with this type of thinking instead of being judgmental as is usually the case. To get a better perspective, listen to what non political figures in the evangical fold are saying. Read the blogs instead of politically prepared defenses.

Evangelicals are happy that Palin's daughter is going to keep the baby and get married. I am sure if it was up to evangelical GOP supporters, they would have rather had it be that her daughter didn't get pregnant in the first place and practiced abstinence.

The evangelicals would have never chosen McCain over Huckabee or Romney, who are more socially conservative than McCain, but their only real hope for a right wing Christian cause is McCain as it stands. The senator won't get the huge support that Bush did since W was their main man and most visible supporter.

Many evangelicals would rather sit this one out. And even some purists within the GOP would have sit this one out if it were anybody other than Huckabee. The other major GOP hopefuls have either been pro-choice in the past or been very quiet about the abortion issue.

If evangelicals follow the bible, as they claim, more so than party affiliation, then they would come out in support of Palin 3 million strong the way they almost unanimously did for Bush in the past two elections. The bible is really big on forgiveness and a true evangelical, if they thought about it for a second, would have forgiveness for Palin's failure as a parent. But my guess is that this scandal is too hard for many of them to face. Many evangelicals did not support gay children of GOP politicians and avoided the issue making me think they kept their bigot ways alive in their mind and still made a weak attempt at still supporting said GOP politicians. I am sure those politicians have had evangelicals offering to help counsel their child into being heterosexual again.

This may be a time for healing and make the evangelicals see the reality that is teen pregnancy today.

scotthayes

Sep 2, 2008, 10:19 AM

We in the UK can't say to much about teen pregnancy, we have the highest rates of teen pregnancy in Europe with around 27 births per 1,000 been to women between 15-19.

However, in the US that figure is 44 per 1,000 births. CDC put the figure at around 1/3 of girls in the US get pregnant before the age of 20 and 80% of those are unplanned.

Maybe, just maybe it's time for politicians like McCain and Palin to stop been such prudes and see the need for more than just abstinence only sex education and that talking about condom and safe sex are not "explicit sex-ed programmes"

rdowns

Sep 2, 2008, 10:21 AM

...but then again, 15-17 year old mothers seem to be the norm in USA)....

How nice of you to stop by to sling some mud. :rolleyes:

Is that mudslinging?
As to teen-mothers.... Well, they do seem to be the norm in USA. Teen-pregancies are a lot more common in USA than they are in Europe for example. I fail to see the problem in stating that fact, especially since it's related to the subject at hand.

While the rate of teen pregnancy in the US is alarming (about a third get pregnant in their teens), it is hardly "the norm, as you call it. "

Thomas Veil

Sep 2, 2008, 10:28 AM

I hate that I was right about that.

If this was happening to Obama if he had a 16-17 year old Daughter, this would be such a different story.No s***. If it happened to Obama, it would be an example of a horrible Hollywood-led liberal upbringing that encourages promiscuity.

I expected the evangelicals to duck from this, but to actually embrace it...just shows how hypocritical they really are.

TheQuestion

Sep 2, 2008, 10:33 AM

No s***. If it happened to Obama, it would be an example of a horrible Hollywood-led liberal upbringing that encourages promiscuity.

I expected the evangelicals to duck from this, but to actually embrace it...just shows how hypocritical they really are.

That's quite a strawman.

leekohler

Sep 2, 2008, 10:37 AM

That's quite a strawman.

No, it isn't. It's a completely legitimate criticism.

63dot

Sep 2, 2008, 11:43 AM

While the rate of teen pregnancy in the US is alarming (about a third get pregnant in their teens), it is hardly "the norm, as you call it. "

It's not exactly invisible, either.

TheQuestion

Sep 2, 2008, 12:03 PM

No, it isn't. It's a completely legitimate criticism.

Do you even know what a strawman is? TV posited a unprovable statement and then sought to refute it with prejudice. Stick to the facts.

Thomas Veil

Sep 2, 2008, 12:03 PM

....she wanted Alaska to succeed...Don't they all? ;)

mactastic

Sep 2, 2008, 03:52 PM

I expected the evangelicals to duck from this, but to actually embrace it...just shows how hypocritical they really are.
What choice do they have? Even James Dobson, who was against McCain before he was for him, a man who once said he would never vote for McCain has -- wait for it -- flip flopped, and said he will now support McCain.

Without Palin, who else were the far-right extremists going to get? Lieberman? Ridge?

They're ecstatic about Palin because she is one of them. Otherwise they were going to get a pro-life VP nominee. Their only choice is to embrace her wholeheartedly.

abijnk

Sep 2, 2008, 04:09 PM

Pardon me for sticking my nose in so late in the game, but what really makes me sick is that people are hailing Palin and her family as such heroes for these two pregnancy things (the son with downs and the pregnant 17 year old) and acting like no one else in the country has the good sense to do the same. Is abortion really that rampant in this country??? I must have missed that memo. :confused:

imac/cheese

Sep 2, 2008, 04:54 PM

I hate that I was right about that.

If this was happening to Obama if he had a 16-17 year old Daughter, this would be such a different story.

I agree that it would be a different story, because there are people on both sides of the political spectrum that try to spin every event into a smear for the opposing candidate or a praise for their candidate. However, I am part of the Christian right and would never base my views of someone on the decisions their nearly grown children decide to make. From a Christian perspective, the Bible is full of examples of rebelling children from Adam to David to the prodigal son. Even Jesus had difficulty keeping his disciples from making bad decisions. When someone's child makes a mistake, I want to see that parent handle the mistake in a loving manner, and I am not going to blame the parent for the child's mistakes.

Lord Blackadder

Sep 2, 2008, 04:56 PM

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here - while it's true that the GOP spin machine is in overdrive about demonstrating the Palin family as archetypes of the pro-life family, we have yet to see what effect it will have on GOP voters.

It might not work, this spin campaign.

Eraserhead

Sep 2, 2008, 05:12 PM

While the rate of teen pregnancy in the US is alarming (about a third get pregnant in their teens), it is hardly "the norm, as you call it. "

1/3 of the population doing something seems pretty normal to me...

rdowns

Sep 2, 2008, 05:34 PM

How's this playing with the supermarket magazine crowd?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/liveblogging/2008/09/how-palin-is-pl.html

Let’s say, instead, like millions of working-class Americans, you get your “news” on the political race from the supermarket aisle. Let’s say you’re -- I don’t know, a “hockey mom” -- and you’re intrigued by this Sarah Palin person you’ve been hearing so much about since Friday.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/02/cover_2.jpg

BoyBach

Sep 2, 2008, 05:42 PM

How's this playing with the supermarket magazine crowd?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/liveblogging/2008/09/how-palin-is-pl.html

Never mind about Sarah Palin; the bloke from 'X Files' is a sex addict and Jennifer Aniston is back on TV.

Don't panic

Sep 2, 2008, 06:19 PM

her selection was designed to put back interest into the snorefest the mccain campaign was becoming, to appease the christian fundamentalists so they stay in the fold, and possibly to capture hillary's troops.

they got the first 2, but i seriously doubt many democrat women would fall for a gun-crazy, anti-environment, anti-sex-ed creationist. She stands against everything they believe in and are probably infuriated more than anybody that all of hillary's 'work' could be pillaged by her.

If anything, it might finally energize them for obama.

leekohler

Sep 2, 2008, 06:29 PM

Lord Blackadder

Sep 2, 2008, 06:32 PM

Agreed. I think she'll be the final coffin nail in McCain's campaign. I just don't see her as much of a plus.

Let's see what she says in her speech...

...but to me, Palin's biggest fault is her membership in an Alaska secessionist organization. If she believes in "Alaska first", what will become of the rest of us in her government? I wonder whether she sees the other 49 states as customers for oil and little else.

Not to mention that the claim of standing up to the oil companies is a lie - she sued the federal government to prevent polar bears going on the endangered list to prevent inconvenience for the oil companies.

Prof.

Sep 2, 2008, 06:32 PM

Right now, my dad is at the RNC and he is telling me that all the reporters are talking about how this (picking Palin as VP and her daughters baby) is going to destroy McCain's campaign.

hulugu

Sep 2, 2008, 06:39 PM

Let's see what she says in her speech...

...but to me, Palin's biggest fault is her membership in an Alaska secessionist organization. If she believes in "Alaska first", what will become of the rest of us in her government? I wonder whether she sees the other 49 states as customers for oil and little else.

Not to mention that the claim of standing up to the oil companies is a lie - she sued the federal government to prevent polar bears going on the endangered list to prevent inconvenience for the oil companies.

She's also been political nimble on the Bridge to Nowhere. From her own press release:

“Ketchikan desires a better way to reach the airport, but the $398 million bridge is not the answer,” said Governor Palin. “Despite the work of our congressional delegation, we are about $329 million short of full funding for the bridge project, and it’s clear that Congress has little interest in spending any more money on a bridge between Ketchikan and Gravina Island,” Governor Palin added. “Much of the public’s attitude toward Alaska bridges is based on inaccurate portrayals of the projects here. But we need to focus on what we can do, rather than fight over what has happened.”

Nowhere do I see a reference to the bridge being a bad idea, wasteful, or part of her effort to eliminate pork. Instead, it appears the project was publicly maligned and was short of funding from Congress.

mactastic

Sep 2, 2008, 06:46 PM

Pinhead extrodinaire himself on teen pregnancy (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317577,00.html):
On the pinhead front, 16-year-old Jamie Lynn Spears is pregnant. The sister of Britney says she is shocked. I bet.

Now most teens are pinheads in some ways. But here the blame falls primarily on the parents of the girl, who obviously have little control over her or even over Britney Spears. Look at the way she behaves.
My emphasis.

I'm guessing he now finds the Palin family blameless... nay, even heroic for their decision to support their pregnant teenage daughter and her decision to raise her baby...

bobber205

Sep 2, 2008, 06:47 PM

Do you even know what a strawman is? TV posited a unprovable statement and then sought to refute it with prejudice. Stick to the facts.

Sex outside of marriage is typically bad in their views right? This girl had sex outside of marriage! True = True right? There is no gray area.

But to embrace it. Oh my god. That is very ironic and hypocritical. I guess evangelicals are condoning sex outside marriage now as long as you keep the child?

hulugu

Sep 2, 2008, 06:53 PM

Pinhead extrodinaire himself on teen pregnancy (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317577,00.html):

My emphasis.

I'm guessing he now finds the Palin family blameless... nay, even heroic for their decision to support their pregnant teenage daughter and her decision to raise her baby...

Well, Bill-O is the leader of the pinhead front, I expect he's too narcissistic to even notice his own tortured logic.

mactastic

Sep 2, 2008, 06:57 PM

Well, Bill-O is the leader of the pinhead front, I expect he's too narcissistic to even notice his own tortured logic.
It wouldn't be the first time. And I suspect he's not the only social conservative to have opined on the JL Spears pregnancy issue who will now find themselves backpedaling swiftly. "I was against teen pregnancy before I was for it." :D

Don't panic

Sep 2, 2008, 06:58 PM

an interesting take on the VP-selected (http://www.crosscut.com/politics-government/17341/About+Sarah+Palin:+an+e-mail+from+Wasilla/), by a housewife from Wasilla. It seems a balanced account although from someone who clearly is not a fan.
emphasis is not on the scandals but on the person.
didn't someone recently called her 'cheneyesque'?

mactastic

Sep 2, 2008, 07:02 PM

bobber205

Sep 2, 2008, 07:05 PM

Anyone else check fivethirtyeight.com today?
Holy crap!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3207/2822351220_83c41d7e1e_o.png

I guess McCain made the "right" choice for the USA. ;)

And Palin can't be Cheney-esque as she's not pure evil.

63dot

Sep 2, 2008, 07:06 PM

Sex outside of marriage is typically bad in their views right? This girl had sex outside of marriage! True = True right? There is no gray area.

But to embrace it. Oh my god. That is very ironic and hypocritical. I guess evangelicals are condoning sex outside marriage now as long as you keep the child?

some evangelicals are making an exception for this person because she is a VP candidate for the GOP

i doubt they would come to the aid of a democratic mom who is evangelical, who is several months pregnant...and democratic evangelicals exist as i am one, but i know better than to make the bible my legislative agenda

nowhere in the bible does it tell christians to conquer and divide and this whole tragic set of circumstances, which sarah palin certainly would have not wanted to happen, has become politicized especially by some republican evangelicals in a quick bid for damage control

they make it sound like this was all planned, but if it was, palin would have announced proudly about her impending grandmotherhood at her debut

bobber205

Sep 2, 2008, 07:08 PM

some evangelicals are making an exception for this person because she is a VP candidate for the GOP

i doubt they would come to the aid of a democratic mom who is evangelical, who is several months pregnant...and democratic evangelicals exist as i am one, but i know better than to make the bible my legislative agenda

nowhere in the bible does it tell christians to conquer and divide and this whole tragic set of circumstances, which sarah palin certainly would have not wanted to happen, has become politicized especially by some republican evangelicals in a quick bid for damage control

they make it sound like this was all planned, but if it was, palin would have announced proudly about her impending grandmotherhood at her debut

I read your post with delight. Thanks for being some level headed and open minded! We need more of you in this country! :D

63dot

Sep 2, 2008, 07:15 PM

I read your post with delight. Thanks for being some level headed and open minded! We need more of you in this country! :D

there are a ton of left leaning christians in the usa starting with jimmy carter and dr. tony campolo, but unlike those two famous democrats/liberals, the christian left keeps religion in their hearts/minds and politics at the polling booth

i went to a church, calvary chapel (orange county, ca) where i had no idea what party the members voted for, and i suspect many churches are umbrellas that include all political points of view

the cardinal of milan, second in line for pope, is a prgressive thinker as is the second in command of the christian coalition (who has been responsible for bringing green awareness into the christian community at large while constantly being under attack from some right wing christians)

BoyBach

Sep 2, 2008, 07:16 PM

...but she's definitely Quayle-esque.

We say "potato", he says "potatoe".

Desertrat

Sep 2, 2008, 07:18 PM

1960, the "scandal" was that a Catholic was running for the Presidency. "The Pope will rule!"

Carter lusted in his heart. Said so, right in Playboy.

Reagan had actually been divorced! Oh! Oh! Oh!

Bush I? Naw, nothing really interesting, there, except maybe the Latin connection.

Clinton & Monica.

Bush II's daughters and their teenage hellraising.

Now it's Palin's family problems. Whooptido. Families have problems. They cope.

The upside is a lot more fun:

"Queen Elizabeth II curtsied when she was introduced to Sarah Palin.

Sarah Palin's enemies are automatically added to the Endangered Species List.

Sarah Palin is what Willis was talkin 'bout.

Death once had a near-Sarah Palin experience.

Sarah Palin was not flown to Ohio in charter jet; she ran as part of her morning workout.

Sarah Palin always beats the point spread.

Sarah Palin once bit the head off a live Osprey snatched from the air as it tried to fly off with a fish she caught.

Sarah Palin uses French Canadians as bait to catch giant king salmon.

When Sarah Palin booked a flight to Europe, the French immediately surrendered.

Sarah Palin plays Whack-a-Mole with her forehead, and always gets a perfect score.

Sarah Palin's finishing move in the VP debate will be pulling Biden's still beating heart from his chest & taking a bite."

The best part of the whole deal about her is that she's the only one of the Big Four in this race who is actually interesting in her own right as a real, live person.

'Rat