Am I the only one considering moving if McCain wins?

[bobber205]

I joke not.
If McCain wins this election one of two things needs to happen for me to stay.

1) Revolution
2) The blue states secede from the union.

Of course I joke about those two things, but I will look to see if Canada will let me in after I graduate if McCain wins.

Am I alone? If you could move, would you?>

[zap2]

We need to stay....America is a world power, if we leave, and let the ideas of Bush/McCain ruin it, the world is a worse place because of it. If America steps up and becomes a positive role model in the world again, then great, we'll have a big country standing up for what is right. The best thing to do is to stay, and be positive forces in a McCain run america, and in 4 years try again.



But for now we can focus on ending the 8 terrible years we're currently in.

[leekohler]

I joke not.
If McCain wins this election one of two things needs to happen for me to stay.

1) Revolution
2) The blue states secede from the union.

Of course I joke about those two things, but I will look to see if Canada will let me in after I graduate if McCain wins.

Am I alone? If you could move, would you?>

Hmm...it would depend on what happens. But no...no immediate plans, unless I can get some cute Canadian guy to put a ring on my finger. ;)

[Schtumple]

My aunt was considering moving to France last year, but the conversion rate is now so terrible she can't really afford to stay retired...

I would recommend the move to Canada to be fair, free health care, almost non-existent gun crime, proper snow :p

The only down side is all the ridiculing you'd get from the Americans here, who'd go with the line, don't go to Canada, it sucks, without backing it up...

[it5five]

I'm moving no matter who wins, and I've been planning on doing so for quite a while now. Kucinich could have won the nomination and the presidency, and I'd still be moving.

Canada is very immigrant-friendly. It doesn't take much to be able to move there. You can take this and find out if you meet the criteria (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/assess/index.asp).

Quebec sets their own immigration rules, so if that's where you were looking at going, take this test (http://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/immigrate-settle/permanent-workers/epi.html). If you know french, I'd recommend going through Quebec immigration. They place much less emphasis on previous work experience (which is great for students like us who might not have much professional experience).

In about one year now, I will be sending in my application for Quebec immigration. It does take about a year and a half for the whole process though.

[zap2]

. Kucinich could have won the nomination and the presidency, and I'd still be moving.
.

If he won, I'd be moving too....right to Washington D.C!!!


He's a great guy.

"Wake Up America!" Kucinich's DNC 2008 speech

[Ntombi]

I have seriously thought about it several times, but my health problems preclude it.

Plus, as much as I'm tempted during the worst times, I can't give up on this country. I love the United States, which is why I fight so hard for our leaders and citizens to do the right thing.

[Much Ado]

unless I can get some cute Canadian guy to put a ring on my finger. ;)

There's a joke there but I'm behaving myself today.

Aren't Canada on the lookout for an influx of people? I think I read that there are subsidies to make coming to work in the country easier.

[djellison]

We are considering moving depending on the election - but not if McCain wins - only if Obama wins.

Across the pond - westward.


Doug

[Schtumple]

We are considering moving depending on the election - but not if McCain wins - only if Obama wins.

Across the pond - westward.


Doug

To....? China, Japan, Australia, New Zealand...

[mr.stinki]

To....? China, Japan, Australia, New Zealand...

I think he means that he's considering moving TO the USA if Obama wins the Election.

[OutThere]

I'm a dual citizen of Switzerland and the US so going to Europe after college wouldn't be unreasonable....though I cling to a dream of the US being on the right track and things going well for a change....

[it5five]

Aren't Canada on the lookout for an influx of people? I think I read that there are even subsidies to make coming to work in the country easier.

I don't know about subsidies, but if you apply under a special "Provincial Nominee (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/provincial/index.asp)" program, your application is expedited.

It is already extremely easy to move to Canada, in my opinion. If you have a college degree, no medical problems, no criminal history, there isn't much stopping you.

[yg17]

I'd love to move (and to be honest, I would move to pretty much anywhere in Europe in a heartbeat even if Obama wins if given the opportunity) but it's just not in the cards yet I don't think. I've got a good job here, and would hate to give that up. Not to mention all of my friends and family are over here.

[localoid]

Of late, I've seriously considered moving because of local politics. On the national level, at least I can look forward to the next elected president leaving office in (at worst) eight years. But here, the "good ol' boy" network tends to make use of the worse elements from both liberal and conservative agendas as the means to keep whomever the local "Boss Hogg" is in power until he dies of old age. It's absolute power, that corrupts (absolutely)...

[Schtumple]

I think he means that he's considering moving TO the USA if Obama wins the Election.

:o oops didn't think of that one... :p

[djellison]

I think he means that he's considering moving TO the USA if Obama wins the Election.

Bingo.

[blackfox]

This reminds me of a similar slew of threads about this time in '04...if Kerry lost.

I don't think anyone did. Point was still taken.

[és:]

You'd need to be careful as to which place you relocate. Just make sure it's not one that's likely to be invaded.

That's a short list of about 6, if he gets in power.

[stevento]

If McCain wins, Obama supporters will never hear the end of it.

This reminds me of a similar slew of threads about this time in '04...if Kerry lost.


One of these days, the democratic party is going to learn to stop nominating people who keep leading us to the same electoral map of defeat. we didn't quite get it this time.

[yg17]

If McCain wins, Obama supporters will never hear the end of it.



One of these days, the democratic party is going to learn to stop nominating people who keep leading us to the same electoral map of defeat. we didn't quite get it this time.

And if Obama wins, Hillary supporters who claimed he was unelectable will never hear the end of it.

[bobber205]

If McCain had the integrity to not run a campaign full of personal attacks and untrue claims and outright lies, the Democrats would have a chance.

[mactastic]

What a bunch of liberal whiners.... seriously, if you're not willing to stay and fight for your country, what are you willing to fight for?

I get sick of these quadrennial emo-fests.

(And before y'all fly off the handle, remember -- I'm a liberal too. I just get disgusted when people think they need to flee the country just because so-and-so got elected instead of their candidate.)

[yoyo5280]

my dad says if McCain wins, he doesn't want to go BACK to america.

[Cave Man]

I've been voting for Presidents since the mid-1980s. This is the first election that I feel like two decent people are the candidates. While I'm pretty much settled on who I'll vote for, I won't be too concerned if my guy loses.

[ucfgrad93]

I joke not.
If McCain wins this election one of two things needs to happen for me to stay.

1) Revolution
2) The blue states secede from the union.

Of course I joke about those two things, but I will look to see if Canada will let me in after I graduate if McCain wins.

Am I alone? If you could move, would you?>

Yawn, let me know if I can send you some boxes or packing tape.

[Cleverboy]

I've been voting for Presidents since the mid-1980s. This is the first election that I feel like two decent people are the candidates. While I'm pretty much settled on who I'll vote for, I won't be too concerned if my guy loses.Agreed. If "my guy" loses, that means I didn't work hard enough. Next time, I'll work harder, and hope that more people understand the stakes.

~ CB

[Frisco]

I have wanted to leave the US after Bush won in 2004. If McCain wins I am out and looking to move to Canada or The Netherlands.

If McCain wins this country is seriously screwed. "8 is enough."

[TheAnswer]

I can't really see abandoning the U.S. and I'd consider it slightly hypocritical of an Obama supporter to do so, considering his rhetoric about being our "brothers' keepers". They'll need us more than ever if McCain wins.

That said, if McCain looks like he's out to McAbel the lot of us, I'm out of here.

[jessica.]

I considered it when Bush won. Well that and a number of other things contributed to me thinking I would move to England. It was really down to the wire and I said if I didn't get the job I have right now I would move. I got the job and therefore didn't move. Best thing I could have done personally. Politically, having been to England I am unsure I would be much happier with the politics there.
The grass isn't always greener.

[trebblekicked]

i agree with caveman.

he's not my candidate, but mccain would make a far better president than W. i don't agree with any of his policy positions (except immigration reform), but he's still a step in the right direction.

i should hope republicans feel the same way about obama (who, by comparison, is a triple jump in the right direction ;)).

[iGary]

Buh bye.

[SMM]

I have evolved past the point of 'considering' it. I began researching my move a few year's back. I was interested in three places; Uruguay, Nicaragua and Costa Rica. Uruguay is the most expensive of the three, but that is its only downside. Nicaragua is the least expensive and has everything I want; good medical, low taxes (no tax on money made outside the Country), very reasonable house prices, cable and Internet, cheap food (especially fruit and vegetables), low crime and a very stable government. I have done the math and my wife and I can live very comfortably, without having to even touch our investments. That is a huge advantage, most young people do not have.

Moving to Canada would have its own challenges, but Costa Rica (or similar place), is a major commitment. One has to go down there and find the home they want. Then actually making the purchase usually requires an attorney to insure the ownership papers are in order, etc. Many homes come furnished, or partially so. So, you need to decide what you want to bring from home, taking measurements for your larger stuff. Then you must have a cargo container dropped off and loaded. It then goes on a cargo ship for transport. The rest of your stuff must be sold, given away, or stored. We have three vehicles to transport alone. So, we are probably looking at two containers. Like I said, it is a major commitment.

There is an old saying, "You cannot run from your troubles". I say, "You sure as hell can". My wife and I have spent countless years, trying to make the world a better place. We have done our part. It is time for someone new to pick-up the torch.

[sushi]

Buh bye.
My sentiments exactly.

Don't make the threat and not follow through. If you say that you are going to leave the USA if Obama wins or if McCain wins, then please do so. :)

[MacDawg]

May not be the perfect place
May not like either candidate

But, in my opinion, it is still the best place... by far


Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[jessica.]

May not be the perfect place
May not like either candidate

But, in my opinion, it is still the best place... by far


Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

A wonderful point. Before you consider a move out of the country you really have to evaluate the politics of each country. That is, if that is what fuels your fire to move.

[sushi]

May not be the perfect place
May not like either candidate

But, in my opinion, it is still the best place... by far
Well said! :)

[obeygiant]

I joke not.
If McCain wins this election one of two things needs to happen for me to stay.

1) Revolution
2) The blue states secede from the union.

Of course I joke about those two things, but I will look to see if Canada will let me in after I graduate if McCain wins.

Am I alone? If you could move, would you?>

Maybe you and it5ive could move in together. He's wanted to move out of the US for like a 2 years now. I hear Toronto is nice...two months out of the year. :)

[Tosser]

People have moved for lesser reasons. So why not?

[Iscariot]

I hear Toronto is nice...two months out of the year. :)

Usually we can squeak out three or four, but so far 2008 hasn't had a one.

As for moving out of the country. The "don't let the door hit you" attitude perplexes me. One thing I've noticed is how overly patriotic Americans are and how criticisms of the nation are taken so personally. It's one thing to be proud of your heritage, but it's another to let patriotism cloud your vision. I'm proud to be Canadian and I'm proud of the history of my nation, but I recognize that there are tons of great places in the world to live. Besides, isn't it awfully hard to get anything done wearing those foam #1 fingers 24/7?

[NC MacGuy]

By all means if you're not happy here and have the opportunity, move on.
That is one of the great things about this country is you can move if you so please. There are thousands of people who would love to take your place in the flawed but still better than most US of A.

Having lived through the 60's, 70's, 80,s, 90's and now the new century - this too shall pass. The wonderful thing about our country is we will have the opportunity to change again in 4 years.

[obeygiant]

Usually we can squeak out three or four, but so far 2008 hasn't had a one.

As for moving out of the country. The "don't let the door hit you" attitude perplexes me. One thing I've noticed is how overly patriotic Americans are and how criticisms of the nation are taken so personally. It's one thing to be proud of your heritage, but it's another to let patriotism cloud your vision. I'm proud to be Canadian and I'm proud of the history of my nation, but I recognize that there are tons of great places in the world to live. Besides, isn't it awfully hard to get anything done wearing those foam #1 fingers 24/7?

It really don't think its a "don't let the door hit you" attitude, sorry. More like "What the hell is wrong with you?" I'm not a flag waving NASCAR fan like most PRSI-oolagins think americans are -- I don't even own a flag. But to think someone must leave because George Bush is in office or, god forbid, another conservative gets in office is hopelessly idealist and naive. Its like being a vegetarian while wearing a leather overcoat. People from all over the world come here for the opportunities and life this country provides. I guess its a case of "the grass is always greener". But would I move to Aix-en-Provance or Tuscany? Sure! For different reasons. The quality of life or liberty here in the states hasn't changed at all let alone to the point to where it should prompt someone to leave. The whole idea is just weird. This country changes politically every four or eight years, if you're aching to leave because of politics just wait..

[ucfgrad93]

As for moving out of the country. The "don't let the door hit you" attitude perplexes me. One thing I've noticed is how overly patriotic Americans are and how criticisms of the nation are taken so personally.

Personally, I think mactastic sums it up quite nicely.

What a bunch of liberal whiners.... seriously, if you're not willing to stay and fight for your country, what are you willing to fight for?

I get sick of these quadrennial emo-fests.

(And before y'all fly off the handle, remember -- I'm a liberal too. I just get disgusted when people think they need to flee the country just because so-and-so got elected instead of their candidate.)

[sushi]

Personally, I think mactastic sums it up quite nicely.
Yes, he does.

If change is needed, then stick around and create change. Leaving won't solve anything.

[NC MacGuy]

^^^ Voices of maturity and reason in last two posts.

[Luis]

I have evolved past the point of 'considering' it. I began researching my move a few year's back. I was interested in three places; Uruguay, Nicaragua and Costa Rica. Uruguay is the most expensive of the three, but that is its only downside. Nicaragua is the least expensive and has everything I want; good medical, low taxes (no tax on money made outside the Country), very reasonable house prices, cable and Internet, cheap food (especially fruit and vegetables), low crime and a very stable government. I have done the math and my wife and I can live very comfortably, without having to even touch our investments. That is a huge advantage, most young people do not have.

Sorry if this is a little off-topic but living next to Nicaragua, I doubt how politically stable they (and the whole region for that matter, including Costa Rica) really are. I definitely love my country and couldn't imagine living somewhere else but I have this feeling of stability going down the drain pretty soon :( However, I get what you mean of being able to live comfortably without even touching your investments, life is really cheap here (although gas prices are throwing everything off)

[MacDawg]

Why I'm not leaving.... diversity... choice... freedom...

Where else could I find all that I have here in the US?

I can tan on the sugar sand beaches of the Gulf Coast, or I can hike in the mountains of Colorado. I can fish for walleye in Minnesota or bass in Texas. I can have all four seasons... spring, summer, fall and winter. I can have a white Christmas in Boston or a sunny Christmas in Los Angeles. I can explore the wonders of the Grand Canyon or watch Old Faithful. I can snow board in Utah or surfboard in Hawaii.

I can have cajun cooking in New Orleans, or seafood in Boston. I can have southern fried cooking in Georgia, or pizza in Chicago. In every major city I can find excellent restaurants that serve the best in Italian, French, Chinese, Thai, and more.

I can have country music from Nashville, or the blues from Memphis. I can have the Boston Pops or the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. We can even rock at Woodstock. We have something for everyone.

I will celebrate Thanksgiving and the 4th of July, as well as Martin Luther King Day and Christmas, and they will all have meaning.

And what about football? Not the World Cup kind, but our own kind. The Cowboys and the Steelers. The Redskins and the Bears. But not just football... dare I mention the Yankees and the Red Sox? The Cubs? Baseball. And basketball. The Celtics and the Lakers. Even the Knicks. The variety and passion of sports is as diverse as our politics.

Does our leadership make mistakes? Hell yes they do. But when they do, watch our people respond. Could Katrina have been handled better? Yes. But look at the grass roots efforts of the people. My daughter spent several weeks helping to rebuild. Do we take care of our people? Yes. I will be on a build for Habitat for Humanity 3 weeks from now myself.

I can live in a red state or a blue state, and yet be whatever color I want to be. We have a black candidate and woman vice presidential candidate. History will be made either way. I can agree with the candidates or disagree, but in the end, I will get to vote on my leadership, local, state and national.

I have been around the world my fair share... Sao Paulo, Caracas, Panama, Paris, Amsterdam, Damascus, Jerusalem, Cairo, Amman, Jamaica, Bogota, Manchester, Vienna and more.

Leave this place... hell no... you couldn't drag me out of here except on vacation. Best damn place in the world as far as I'm concerned.

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[bobber205]

The besy way I can create Change is to try and elect Obama. I've donated money and I plan on voting.

I still have to live my own life, like school jobs etc.

If the country refuses to elect Change (©), then I don't know what to think.

[archesdevil]

If mccain wins, I am moving down under.

[sushi]

The besy way I can create Change is to try and elect Obama. I've donated money and I plan on voting.

I still have to live my own life, like school jobs etc.

If the country refuses to elect Change (©), then I don't know what to think.
Good for you.

Of course you know, and I am sure, that there are others who look at the situation in a different way and will be voting for McCain. :)

[gibbz]

Ever heard the phrase "The grass is always greener on the other side"?

I am an independent who will be voting for Obama. If McCain wins, I'll get behind him to make the correct decisions for our country. The tag lines for elections are overplayed. Remember 2004? There was the main question of who was strong enough to get us through the war on terror. How happy are people with that choice? This year it is the phrase of 8 is enough. I really doubt that in reality, if McCain wins, that we look back and say, boy he is exactly the same as Bush.

In the end, I will disagree with choices from both candidates, but for crying out loud, THEY ARE FROM ANOTHER PARTY, NOT ANOTHER COUNTRY. Hope you enjoy where you go and don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.

[bobber205]

I've watched Obama speeches and nearly been brought to tears.

I've watched McCain's speeches with either totally apathy, slight disgust, or sometimes, just sometimes, in anger.

[TheAnswer]

The besy way I can create Change is to try and elect Obama...If the country refuses to elect Change (©), then I don't know what to think.

No, the best way you can create change is to become an agent of change yourself; to become more active in your community; become more aware of issues from local, to state, to federal, to global and take action.

Viewing Obama as some kind of cure-all that's going to get everything done that needs to be done is the wrong way to look at it. As he said Thursday night: it's not about him...it's about you.

[Iscariot]

It really don't think its a "don't let the door hit you" attitude, sorry. More like "What the hell is wrong with you?" I'm not a flag waving NASCAR fan like most PRSI-oolagins think americans are -- I don't even own a flag. But to think someone must leave because George Bush is in office or, god forbid, another conservative gets in office is hopelessly idealist and naive. Its like being a vegetarian while wearing a leather overcoat. People from all over the world come here for the opportunities and life this country provides. I guess its a case of "the grass is always greener". But would I move to Aix-en-Provance or Tuscany? Sure! For different reasons. The quality of life or liberty here in the states hasn't changed at all let alone to the point to where it should prompt someone to leave. The whole idea is just weird. This country changes politically every four or eight years, if you're aching to leave because of politics just wait..

Personally, I think mactastic sums it up quite nicely.

So then at what point does one leaving a country for political reasons stop making one a disenfranchised whiner? I'm curious, because there seems to be an invisible line I'm not aware of.

[jpmittins]

No, the best way you can create change is to become an agent of change yourself; to become more active in your community; become more aware of issues from local, to state, to federal, to global and take action.

Viewing Obama as some kind of cure-all that's going to get everything done that needs to be done is the wrong way to look at it. As he said Thursday night: it's not about him...it's about you.

Agreed. You can't count on other people to change things and complain when nothing happens; if you want change, go out and make some.

Nice avatar! Where did you get that? Richard looks awesome in that picture!

[bobber205]

No, the best way you can create change is to become an agent of change yourself; to become more active in your community; become more aware of issues from local, to state, to federal, to global and take action.

Viewing Obama as some kind of cure-all that's going to get everything that needs to be done is the wrong way to look at it. As he said Thursday night, it's not about him...it's about you.

Extremely well said TheAnswer. :)

After the DNC this week, for the first time in my life I've considered doing "public works". I'm in college for Software Engineering and those careers typically make nothing.

I guess it's voluntering for me. :D Donating money to charity etc.

[stevento]

If McCain wins, it will prove me right. There will be absolutely no bound to the "I told you so" you will have to endure.

The besy way I can create Change is to try and elect Obama.
If the country refuses to elect Change (©), then I don't know what to think.


I've watched Obama speeches and nearly been brought to tears.

Well they are both promising change and reform and talking a big game. But neither has a record of bringing it. Obama will not bring change the way he promises, neither will McCain. McCain will bring absolutely no change. The transfer of power will seamless and unnoticeable from Bush to McCain. Please do not judge a candidate by his ability to run his mouth behind a podium. Hitler gave great speeches too.

[Tosser]

Well they are both promising change and reform and talking a big game. But neither has a record of bringing it. Obama will not bring change, neither will McCain. Please do not judge a candidate by his ability to run his mouth behind a podium. Hitler gave great speeches too.
Hitler might not be the best example of what you mean, methinks.
Not to infer there was anything positiv about it, but Hitler didn't just give great speeches, he certainly put his foot where his mouth was, bringing quite a bit of change along with those words of his.

[bobber205]

Hitler might not be the best example of what you mean, methinks.
Not to infer there was anything positiv about it, but Hitler didn't just give great speeches, he certainly put his foot where his mouth was, bringing quite a bit of change along with those words of his.

Exactly. Obama is a good-hitler. As bad as that sounds.

[Tosser]

Exactly. Obama is a good-hitler. As bad as that sounds.

LOL, yeah, it doesn't exactly roll pleasantly off the tongue :p

[EricNau]

Exactly. Obama is a good-hitler. As bad as that sounds.
So was Hitler... in the beginning.

[Tosser]

So was Hitler... in the beginning.

Wow!

Are you inferring, what I think you're inferring? :eek:

[yg17]

If McCain wins, it will prove me right. There will be absolutely no bound to the "I told you so" you will have to endure.

And if Obama wins, there will ne no bound to the "I told you so" you will have to endure.

[EricNau]

Wow!

Are you inferring, what I think you're inferring? :eek:
Don't read into it too far. I'm simply stating a fact.

[bobber205]

If Obama is really the next Hitler or Anti-Christ then bring on armageddon. It sounds fabulous! :D

[djellison]

I think people saying that people should stay behind and fight are sort of missing the point. I can totally understand why someone would sit down - look at their country if it puts McCain and Palin in the WH and say:

"You know what - this isn't the country I thought it was - these people are not people I share ideals with - this country is not one I wish to fight for anymore"

After three consecutive elections voting for Bush and his friends - I can understand ( and from afar, share ) the exasperation of those who wonder what their country really is about and think it's worth getting out.

Surely part of the whole Freedom and Liberty thing also includes the option to say "The way this country is going isn't one I agree with - I wish to get out".

[ucfgrad93]

So then at what point does one leaving a country for political reasons stop making one a disenfranchised whiner? I'm curious, because there seems to be an invisible line I'm not aware of.

In my opinion there is no point. Leaving the country just because your guy didn't win, is the ploy of a 4-year old. Just say "I didn't get my way, so I'm leaving! and be done with it. Or go sit in the corner and throw your tantrum.

[Sun Baked]

Until McCain does something really stupid, like appoint Joe Lieberman to the Secretary of State position. :eek:

[it5five]

I think people saying that people should stay behind and fight are sort of missing the point. I can totally understand why someone would sit down - look at their country if it puts McCain and Palin in the WH and say:

"You know what - this isn't the country I thought it was - these people are not people I share ideals with - this country is not one I wish to fight for anymore"

After three consecutive elections voting for Bush and his friends - I can understand ( and from afar, share ) the exasperation of those who wonder what their country really is about and think it's worth getting out.

Surely part of the whole Freedom and Liberty thing also includes the option to say "The way this country is going isn't one I agree with - I wish to get out".

Sort of how I feel.

Like I said before, I'm not "threatening" to move if "my guy" doesn't win. I've been planning on it and doing my research for years now, and working hard in university to finish up quickly so I can get my permanent residence application sent in.

This isn't my country. I don't feel at home here, and I don't find anything worth "fighting" for here. And I also realize that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. There are things about Canada that bother me (treatment of native population is one of the first things to come to mind), and things that bother me about Quebec (strong nationalism movement), but there is a hell of a lot more that bothers me about this country that I know I won't see fixed in my lifetime.

I don't care if people think I'm a coward for wanting to leave. I think it'd be stupid of me to stay, and I'd much rather be considered a coward than an idiot.

Maybe you and it5ive could move in together. He's wanted to move out of the US for like a 2 years now. I hear Toronto is nice...two months out of the year. :)

Forget Toronto. I'm headed toward Montreal. Wonderful during the summer, and a snowy hell during the winter. :)

[SMM]

There was once a time when I thought the US was the best country to live in. But, with the loss of so many of our constitutional rights and freedom, and a government which has become unbelievably corrupt, I cannot agree with that any longer. I can think of several countries, which are better, and many more that are our equal. Read my post today, in the Minneapolis Arrests thread. It shows what I, and many more, see the current state of the Constitution.

[sushi]

There was once a time when I thought the US was the best country to live in. But, with the loss of so many of our constitutional rights and freedom, and a government which has become unbelievably corrupt, I cannot agree with that any longer. I can think of several countries, which are better, and many more that are our equal. Read my post today, in the Minneapolis Arrests thread. It shows what I, and many more, see the current state of the Constitution.
One thing to remember, is that with the Internet, Blogs and such, we are seeing the world in a much different way than in the past.

I can pick up my cell phone and call anywhere in the world. Unbelievable connectivity.

Compare President Kennedy's and President Clinton's escapades and how they were covered. Or consider President Roosevelt's issues with Polio and President Ford's fall down the steps.

My point is that we are bombarded with information in today's world. Sometimes it makes things seem much worse than they are. It also makes us feel that we know other parts of the world without visiting, which in reality, is many times not true.

Anyhow, as they say, we live in interesting times. :)

[stevento]

And if Obama wins, there will ne no bound to the "I told you so" you will have to endure.

I never said Obama couldn't win. In fact I think he has a better chance than McCain, if his 11th hour attacks are sharp. But I always said Hillary was a stronger candidate against McCain due to polls with hispanics and lunch bucket democrats. But if Obama doesn't win, the story is not going to be "McCain Wins" its going to be "How did you manage to lose this one, Obama?"

Immediately the pundits (and I) will start talking about the shoulda-coulda-wouldas of the general election and throwing them in Obama supporters' faces.

[Much Ado]

Having just spent the summer driving in the US for the first time, I can tell you that I would never move to the country because of that crazy road system you have over there :)

[stevento]

I'll vote for Obama but I wont lie about his chances at winning. Usually after the convention there is a slight bump in polls however...
CNN poll: no convention bounce for Obama (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/31/obama.mccain.poll/index.html)
Obama: 49%
McCain: 48%
hopefully McCain wont get a bounce either.
On the other hand ...it might bode well that the DNC spends the next four years wishing they'd picked Hillary...

j/k

[yg17]

I never said Obama couldn't win. In fact I think he has a better chance than McCain, if his 11th hour attacks are sharp. But I always said Hillary was a stronger candidate against McCain due to polls with hispanics and lunch bucket democrats. But if Obama doesn't win, the story is not going to be "McCain Wins" its going to be "How did you manage to lose this one, Obama?"

Immediately the pundits (and I) will start talking about the shoulda-coulda-wouldas of the general election and throwing them in Obama supporters' faces.

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Obama_dominates_McCain_among_Hispan_07022008.html

Obama beats McCain among Hispanics 59-29.

I'll vote for Obama but I wont lie about his chances at winning. Usually after the convention there is a slight bump in polls however...
CNN poll: no convention bounce for Obama (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/31/obama.mccain.poll/index.html)
Obama: 49%
McCain: 48%
hopefully McCain wont get a bounce either.
On the other hand ...it might bode well that the DNC spends the next four years wishing they'd picked Hillary...

j/k

That's one lousy, single poll taken on a weekend (and a holiday one no less) which is the worst time for polling. The Gallup daily tracking gave him an 8 point bounce. CNN will do anything to make the race look close since it means ratings for them.

[nplima]

One thing to remember, is that with the Internet, Blogs and such, we are seeing the world in a much different way than in the past.

More importantly, this gives an opportunity for all to speak. Trouble is that "unhappy customers" tend to be much more vocal than happy ones, that's why today you can read much more whingeing than ever in History.
Same applies to politics and many other newspaper worthy news. People really need to make an effort to filter out a lot of pessimistic drivel.

[Cave Man]

I'll vote for Obama but I wont lie about his chances at winning. Usually after the convention there is a slight bump in polls however...
CNN poll: no convention bounce for Obama (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/31/obama.mccain.poll/index.html)
Obama: 49%
McCain: 48%


Percentages this close mean nothing. It's all about the electoral college, and right now McCain's got the lead.

[yg17]

Percentages this close mean nothing. It's all about the electoral college, and right now McCain's got the lead.
http://electoral-vote.com/
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/


No he doesn't.

[djellison]

If the US votes to put a creationist in as VP - then I can well understand why some people would want to emigrate. That's a dangerous, worrying place for a country to go. It scares me to death - and I don't live there. And a country that makes that choice is not one I want to live in. One that refuses to elect that sort of candidate is one I would want to live in.

Doug

[Cave Man]

http://electoral-vote.com/
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

No he doesn't.

Wow, that's changed in the last two weeks. I guess people are really starting to think about it, although there are a few big states that are too close to call.

[Cave Man]

If the US votes to put a creationist in as VP - then I can well understand why some people would want to emigrate.

We already have a pres and vp that fit that criteria.

[djellison]

We already have a pres and vp that fit that criteria.

Quite. I can put the first GWB election down to excellent marketing and some dodgy voting technology. The second one, the Democrats dropped the ball with the third dullest man in the world ( After Gordon Brown and Andrew Murray) as their candidate. This time around it's obvious what the Republican candidate is about. The Democrats have put the right sort of person up (either of the final two would have been good). There is no real valid excuse for the US population to make the wrong choice this time around. For many US inhabitants, I can well understand their ' this is the last chance' attitude.

Doug

[Lord Blackadder]

Why move away just 'cause we elect another bad administration?....I wouldn't want to be around anyone with that attitude when anything goes wrong - sounds like the "run away from problems" type.

[mactastic]

So then at what point does one leaving a country for political reasons stop making one a disenfranchised whiner? I'm curious, because there seems to be an invisible line I'm not aware of.
That's a judgment call each of us has to make individually, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a hell of a lot farther down the road towards a dictatorship than we are today.

I think people saying that people should stay behind and fight are sort of missing the point. I can totally understand why someone would sit down - look at their country if it puts McCain and Palin in the WH and say:

"You know what - this isn't the country I thought it was - these people are not people I share ideals with - this country is not one I wish to fight for anymore"

After three consecutive elections voting for Bush and his friends - I can understand ( and from afar, share ) the exasperation of those who wonder what their country really is about and think it's worth getting out.

Surely part of the whole Freedom and Liberty thing also includes the option to say "The way this country is going isn't one I agree with - I wish to get out".
If you decide to leave as a result of the nation trending conservative over an extended period of time, so be it. I just think it is the height of petulant knee-jerk tantrum-throwing to declare that just because your candidate didn't win, you're going to take your toys and leave. There are plenty of good cases to be made for leaving the USA, and lots of them don't even involve politics. But just because McCain wins or because Obama wins? IMHO, that's just acting out in anger.

[MacDawg]

The Democrats have put the right sort of person up (either of the final two would have been good). There is no real valid excuse for the US population to make the wrong choice this time around.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

The plain truth is... the majority of Americans do NOT believe like the posters on this board. Their choices are not made because they are ignorant, uninformed, stupid, neanderthalistic, or masochistic. They make their choices based on values that are different from yours, plain and simple. Their worldview is different and their priorities are different. And they are in the majority, even if it is a small majority.

So to say they have no excuse for making the wrong choice this time around is an interesting choice of words. Wrong is a matter of opinion, in this case yours. It is not an absolute. There is a relatively equal number of people right now who feel the world will end if Obama is elected, just as others feel it will end if McCain is elected. Each has their own reasons. To say one is right and one is wrong is just picking sides based on your values.

At the end of the day, the differences between the two are hardly catastrophic. Obama is not the change agent he portrays himself to be, and his positions are reflecting it more and more as the election approaches. McCain is hardly the conservative he wants to portray himself as being. That is why he selected Palin to bolster that side. Both are politicians, and in the end, we will elect a politician again.

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[NC MacGuy]

Quite. I can put the first GWB election down to excellent marketing and some dodgy voting technology. The second one, the Democrats dropped the ball with the third dullest man in the world ( After Gordon Brown and Andrew Murray) as their candidate. This time around it's obvious what the Republican candidate is about. The Democrats have put the right sort of person up (either of the final two would have been good). There is no real valid excuse for the US population to make the wrong choice this time around. For many US inhabitants, I can well understand their ' this is the last chance' attitude.

Doug

I think Kerry or Gore were much more capable than Obama. He speaks well, has an awesome campaign and is doing everything he can to appeal to everyone. Hell, after his speech last Thursday I was almost ready to vote for him! A lot of promises but little details on how the end results would be achieved. He's waffled enough over the past few months to raise doubts in my mind that he's just another of the same. Charismatic senator yes, but President - I don't think so. Given the un-charismatic previous two, the party needed Obama to rally the uninspired.

[Thomas Veil]

In my opinion there is no point. Leaving the country just because your guy didn't win, is the ploy of a 4-year old. Just say "I didn't get my way, so I'm leaving! and be done with it. Or go sit in the corner and throw your tantrum.It isn't because my guy didn't win, or because I didn't get my way....

Agreed. If "my guy" loses, that means I didn't work hard enough. Next time, I'll work harder, and hope that more people understand the stakes.

~ CB...And I don't think that it means you didn't work hard enough....

I think people saying that people should stay behind and fight are sort of missing the point. I can totally understand why someone would sit down - look at their country if it puts McCain and Palin in the WH and say:

"You know what - this isn't the country I thought it was - these people are not people I share ideals with - this country is not one I wish to fight for anymore"

After three consecutive elections voting for Bush and his friends - I can understand ( and from afar, share ) the exasperation of those who wonder what their country really is about and think it's worth getting out.

Surely part of the whole Freedom and Liberty thing also includes the option to say "The way this country is going isn't one I agree with - I wish to get out".This gets as close to explaining my feelings about this. I can live with my guy losing the election. I can live with policies I don't agree with (assuming they don't go totally bonkers like W threatens to).

What I can't live with is the idea that, no matter how bad things get in this country, the people will never change it. I swear, it's like that joke -- the people in this country love to keep on getting kicked in the face because it feels so good when you stop. The vast majority of us are agreed that W is horrible and the country's on the wrong track...and we're still not willing to do anything about it. I look at how close this election is and ask, "Are you effing kidding me?? Obama should be killing McCain, absolutely wiping him out!"

And I can't find anything that's so wonderful about McCain or so horrible about Obama that explains this. But I can walk out the door and immediately trip over voters who have completely idiotic reasons for their choices, however...reasons like "Obama's a Muslim" or "McCain picked a good VP."

So if I were to leave the country (and notice, I said if), it would be because I'd concluded that the majority of voters are hopeless retards, and that no matter what I do, how hard I work, how well I reason with people, I will never, ever, ever see a guy from my side of the aisle, or his or her policies, running this country.

I mean, if it's hopeless, why stay? (Not arguing the point, just that I can see how people would reason that way.)

[63dot]

I joke not.
If McCain wins this election one of two things needs to happen for me to stay.

1) Revolution
2) The blue states secede from the union.

Of course I joke about those two things, but I will look to see if Canada will let me in after I graduate if McCain wins.

Am I alone? If you could move, would you?>

If McCain-Palin win, AND they are a carbon copy of the Bush administration, I am seriously thinking of moving to Canada with my wife after I finish law school. Of course, I would have to re-do much of law school since Canada is a common law country and the states are statute and precedent driven.

The USA will not go into a civil war, imho, and will still be a top nation. However, I said top in the context that there are other nations as good as the USA, and quite a few better. Many Americans I have met have said how much better they like countries like Japan, Switzerland, Canada, Greece, and Italy, to name a few. And none of these people say that "America sucks".

That being said, America has and will probably continue to be in the top ten percent of nations as it has been since the mid-1800s. I just don't know, along with many other Americans, if I can tolerate the stupidity that has become the modern GOP. I started as a republican, so my anger towards the non-issue oriented GOP platform makes me think of Canada, or elsewhere.

[63dot]

The plain truth is... the majority of Americans do NOT believe like the posters on this board. Their choices are not made because they are ignorant, uninformed, stupid, neanderthalistic, or masochistic. They make their choices based on values that are different from yours, plain and simple. Their worldview is different and their priorities are different. And they are in the majority, even if it is a small majority.
http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

Our country is pretty evenly divided between the conservatives and liberals, and there is a large moderate base that goes one way or the other (kennedy '60, johnson '64, nixon '68, carter '76, etc.) and that middle group decides the whole election. Before FDR, the country had a slight GOP majority, and after that until about a few years ago, our country has a slight democratic party majority.

But the past two elections have shown how close things are today to the point a statistical draw. I want both parties, especially the GOP, to get back to the issues at hand that are important to our nation's economy. Money does not make the world go around, but ignoring it, as in recent American politics, is ruining our country. Where is 1980's Reagan? Where is 1992's Clinton? The rest of the stuff since then has been a pissing contest.

[Prof.]

If I had the money to do so, I'd totally move to Canada. OR go live with my good friend in the United Kingdom.

[calculus]

In the UK, every election time, there is always a string of minor celebrities who claim they will leave if Labour get in (I think it's something to do with having to pay income tax...)

Sadly they always end up staying...

[stevento]

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Obama_dominates_McCain_among_Hispan_07022008.html
Obama beats McCain among Hispanics 59-29.
That's one lousy, single poll taken on a weekend (and a holiday one no less) which is the worst time for polling. The Gallup daily tracking gave him an 8 point bounce. CNN will do anything to make the race look close since it means ratings for them.

yeah but Hillary was beating McCain harder in hispanics and especially working class democrats. there is a reason working class folks consistently vote for policies that screw them economically. its because democrats continue to nominate folks like john kerry and barack obama.
Obama will win is he is on his game a week or two before the election. Obama will have more money for attack ads. as long as he doesn't take the high road like john kerry and not throw any sharp attacks.

[Sun Baked]

In the UK, every election time, there is always a string of minor celebrities who claim they will leave if Labour get in (I think it's something to do with having to pay income tax...)

Sadly they always end up staying...

Sort of sucks, you try really hard to get rid of that noisy neighbor and they decide to stay.

[thebassoonist]

I joke not.
If McCain wins this election one of two things needs to happen for me to stay.

1) Revolution
2) The blue states secede from the union.

Of course I joke about those two things, but I will look to see if Canada will let me in after I graduate if McCain wins.

Am I alone? If you could move, would you?>

I would. I just don't know where exactly to go. I'm thinking Norway or Sweden.

[Iscariot]

In my opinion there is no point. Leaving the country just because your guy didn't win, is the ploy of a 4-year old. Just say "I didn't get my way, so I'm leaving! and be done with it. Or go sit in the corner and throw your tantrum.

If you think that "because your guy didn't win" is the only and definitive reason for moving then you're greatly oversimplifying.

Forget Toronto. I'm headed toward Montreal. Wonderful during the summer, and a snowy hell during the winter. :)

(Montreal is a lovely city, but have you ever been there during the winter? It makes Toronto winter look like a Christmas special. During the summer it's my favourite city in the North America, though.)

That's a judgment call each of us has to make individually, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a hell of a lot farther down the road towards a dictatorship than we are today.

But can you draw a definitive line of where it becomes acceptable?

If you decide to leave as a result of the nation trending conservative over an extended period of time, so be it. I just think it is the height of petulant knee-jerk tantrum-throwing to declare that just because your candidate didn't win, you're going to take your toys and leave. There are plenty of good cases to be made for leaving the USA, and lots of them don't even involve politics. But just because McCain wins or because Obama wins? IMHO, that's just acting out in anger.

Yes, but lots of them do involve politics, and the political stewardship of the recent administration. Why couldn't a McCain election be a dealbreaker, the final straw if you will?

[63dot]

Wow, that's changed in the last two weeks. I guess people are really starting to think about it, although there are a few big states that are too close to call.

What surprises me is while California is predictably strong Democrat, Texas is only weak Republican. Utah is strong Republican though and it's always a state that the GOP can count in. Texas has flip flopped as has California but won't this election.

My guess is that after the GOP convention, McCain may take some luster off of California and New York for the democrats, even though the democrats will still win those states, but not by the margins they thought they would.

Texas, currently weak Republican, will likely be strong Republican by the end of the convention and stay that way close to election time. He will take all the southern states except for Virginia and possibly a mountain and/or southwestern state. In the end Obama will beat McCain by a larger electoral college margin than Bush won both times in 2004 and 2000.

Every ten years, the Senate, House, or White House changes hands from the liberal bias to the conservative bias and often times, not all three are under one party.

[SMM]

One thing to remember, is that with the Internet, Blogs and such, we are seeing the world in a much different way than in the past.

I can pick up my cell phone and call anywhere in the world. Unbelievable connectivity.

Compare President Kennedy's and President Clinton's escapades and how they were covered. Or consider President Roosevelt's issues with Polio and President Ford's fall down the steps.

My point is that we are bombarded with information in today's world. Sometimes it makes things seem much worse than they are. It also makes us feel that we know other parts of the world without visiting, which in reality, is many times not true.

Anyhow, as they say, we live in interesting times. :)

Yes, technology has allowed us to get the 'world view'. For some, it is a new experience. Personally, I use to pick up the Guardian, Times, Sun, Daily Mail or Telegraph, at least once a week. I got reacquainted with reading the newspaper while traveling in the UK. My wife and I would look for a newsstand during the day, then read them (usually cover to cover) that evening. Now, the papers are on-line, which makes things much more convenient.

Americans who have never lived abroad, can find the experience daunting, especially if the culture is remarkably different than the US. Fortunately for me, I lived for several years in SE Asia, South Pacific and Mexico. So, I feel quite comfortable with living abroad. However, I have not been to Costa Rica yet, and will have to spend some time there before 'pulling the trigger'.

[solvs]

No one could make me want to leave my country. No one. I don't care how bad things are, I will stay and fight if I have to. Literally if I have to. I love this country. What it's supposed to stand for. I like the gov when they deserve it, and when they don't, I say so. No matter who the party. I guess some people would rather flee than fight. That is their right, and I won't slam them for it. So long as they aren't whining about it and wind up staying after all, then it's just annoying.