iPod Nano and iPod Touch Dimensions Revealed?

[shigzeo]

that is cool. im not irritated that you are irritated. but if i choose to call it itouch rather than touch or ipod touch, i would prefer just to be left alone. i did come to ipod only recently after dabling in the worst marketting liars, iaudio and found it phenomenal: if only the line was cleaner and the volume was in-line, i would be all over it again. indeed, my touch, itouch ipod touch, iPod touch is far better an audio player than my former (sold) iaudio audiophile d2 (for all its praise is quite a shrill player)

[Andrew K.]

Okay I understand the whole "iTouch" thing it IS annoying here's why:

1. An iPod Nano can be called a Nano because it is a legitimate abbreviation

2. Mac for Macintosh is the same thing

3. An iPod Touch should be abbreviated by just calling it a Touch

WHY? Because you don't call a nano an iNano or a Mac an iMa...oh wait :D

Anyway iTouch is annoying and is more of a pet peeve to everyone than anything else on these posts and in real life so "Touch" or "iPod Touch"

If I see anyone call it an iTouch one more time I will find out where you live and send a midget (or little person) dressed in a butler suit to run up your face and smack you silly... end.of.story.

[toujames]

It's iPod TOuch not iTouch that really makes me mad when people say iTouch they sound like idiots who don't know anything about technology.

same here who knows maybe itouch will be the title for a touch tablet.......maybe:rolleyes:

[iParis]

Okay I understand the whole "iTouch" thing it IS annoying here's why:

1. An iPod Nano can be called a Nano because it is a legitimate abbreviation

2. Mac for Macintosh is the same thing

3. An iPod Touch should be abbreviated by just calling it a Touch

WHY? Because you don't call a nano an iNano or a Mac an iMa...oh wait :D

Anyway iTouch is annoying and is more of a pet peeve to everyone than anything else on these posts and in real life so "Touch" or "iPod Touch"

If I see anyone call it an iTouch one more time I will find out where you live and send a midget (or little person) dressed in a butler suit to run up your face and smack you silly... end.of.story.

Agreed.
And the next time you hear someone say iTouch by all means don't be hesitant to send me a message because I will be more than glad to help pay for the midget.

[Riemann Zeta]

What a strange ellipsoid design. I can't image it really being that rounded in person, it looks almost cylindrical from the renderings and mock-ups.

[timerollson]

Ugh...

I'm putting my current iPod Touch on Craig's List. I'll get the new iPod Touch just because I hate having old stuff lol.

[Ivan P]

I think Apple should stop trying the make the iPod touch more like the iPhone; yes, it's basically a phone-less and (currently) GPS-less iPhone, but it is still part of the iPod line and therefore I feel it should conform more to the standards set by other iPods. I've had so many people come up to me when I'm using my iPod touch, for them to say "oh my god, is that an iPhone?!". When I explain what it is, they look at me as if I'm some cheap ass and say "...oh" (despite the fact the iPhone wasn't officially available here when I got my iPod anyway). Making it more like the iPhone isn't necessarily a good thing.

[C64]

iTouch or no iTouch...

I'm going to pick me up a nice fatty Nano today now I still can.

Who's with me?

[CaptainCaveMann]

I agree. People saying iTouch instead of iPod touch is a pet peeve of mine.

Personally I think iTouch is a better name for it. :cool:

[Mr. Giver '94]

iTouch or no iTouch...

I'm going to pick me up a nice fatty Nano today now I still can.

Who's with me?

+1 The new one looks horrid and I hate the idea of turning it sideways to watch video and having the controls messed up etc.

I think I'll go with the sea foam green one or the black one. What color will you be getting?

[chrules]

I think the new ipod nano is ***** ugly!.. I still like the 2 gen ipod nano the best.. the one right now just looks like a little fat boy :(...

[Apple Ink]

+1 The new one looks horrid and I hate the idea of turning it sideways to watch video and having the controls messed up etc.

I think I'll go with the sea foam green one or the black one. What color will you be getting?

+100,000

The fatty is nice!

I'll get the cranberry since I already have a silver 4GB and a Black that I gifted a family member!

[hiimamac]

+100,000

The fatty is nice!

I'll get the cranberry since I already have a silver 4GB and a Black that I gifted a family member!

I liked the Nano's as they are in the current state.

That said, if Apple & AT&T were smart, they would reduce the DATA rate for iPhones, and offer DATA 3G for the newer touch and iPod lines.

It might not happen now, but I think it's only a matter of time before APPLE will tie in some sort of 3G with ALL iPods for people who want internet and perhaps have users that either a) are stuck on they current plan or b)want to stay with their cell phone provider, regardless,

Either way, it's happening. Bookmarks this. It's just a matter of time, not if, when.

3G will be on most models and I think the shuffle is going to become extinct.

[turtlebud]

I think Apple should stop trying the make the iPod touch more like the iPhone; yes, it's basically a phone-less and (currently) GPS-less iPhone, but it is still part of the iPod line and therefore I feel it should conform more to the standards set by other iPods. I've had so many people come up to me when I'm using my iPod touch, for them to say "oh my god, is that an iPhone?!". When I explain what it is, they look at me as if I'm some cheap ass and say "...oh" (despite the fact the iPhone wasn't officially available here when I got my iPod anyway). Making it more like the iPhone isn't necessarily a good thing.

personally, i don't really mind when people think I have an iphone and I have to tell them it's "just" an ipod. I guess i've had a more positive reaction (i've never gotten the impression that people think I'm cheap because i have an ipod touch instead of an iphone) because people realize that you can get most of the cool things that you see in an iphone for one flat fee w/ no monthly subscription costs. The iPod touch is revolutionary IMHO, it basically puts a computer in the palm of your hand. no need to lug a laptop around if you'd like to be connected (in the presence of wifi, that is), just bring a lot a thin ipod touch that you can slip in your pocket. personally, I love it and am so happy that apple came out with it. now if they'd just add a camera on to it, i'd get rid of my current one and get a new one in a heartbeat.

[Clayne]

iTouch.


Get over it.


Itouch.
iTouch.

[C64]

+1 The new one looks horrid and I hate the idea of turning it sideways to watch video and having the controls messed up etc.

I think I'll go with the sea foam green one or the black one. What color will you be getting?
I'm going for inconspicuous black. I'm still hope it'll just be a fattier fatty though, i.e. more memory for the same price. But with all these rumours I think the chance of that happening is becoming very slim.

[Apple Ink]

I liked the Nano's as they are in the current state.

That said, if Apple & AT&T were smart, they would reduce the DATA rate for iPhones, and offer DATA 3G for the newer touch and iPod lines.

It might not happen now, but I think it's only a matter of time before APPLE will tie in some sort of 3G with ALL iPods for people who want internet and perhaps have users that either a) are stuck on they current plan or b)want to stay with their cell phone provider, regardless,

Either way, it's happening. Bookmarks this. It's just a matter of time, not if, when.

3G will be on most models and I think the shuffle is going to become extinct.

Yes thats bound to happen sooner, later or much later! Internet is the thing of the future and looking forward.... a necessity!

[Funplex]

I would prefer if all iPods had he same backing as the first-gen iPhones.

DITTO!!

I absolutely loathe the mirror finish-- damn thing is scratched the moment you open the box!

[Nieval]

This goes out to all the haters out there (you know who you are),
I remember when the iPod Nano 2G came out and everyone liked it, well, isn't fair to say that this is basically the same form factor give or take a bit more roundness. You can say you like the "fatty" more but just saying you plain out hate this one sounds like rash misguided judgement (read whining fanboy hate-tism) esp before even seeing it for real-life (respect to those who did mention they'd wait to check it out - good to know this forum isn't just made out of quick-to-hate-trend-chasing blokes).

[Philberttheduck]

touch me
till I can get my
satisfaction
satisfaction
satisfaction
satisfaction
satisfaction

[Pikemann Urge]

Looks entirely credible.
I disagree. Would Apple make the nano look like a Bic lighter? Well... no.

My take: this thread will be a great study case for when bad ideas get traction. :-)

EDIT: I am not making a judgement on the design but just the plausibility of it being from Apple.

[wbeasley]

i have a 4G, 5G and touch as well as a Sony A818. Just checked the Sony page and the dimensions of the possible new nano are very similar. Same 2" screen (4:3 format). The sony is about 3 mm thicker (but that just means you can hold it easily and the battery life is improved).

I watch movies on it fine. The controls are not an issue as Sony have four arrows that rotate and work as you'd expect whether in portrait or landscape mode.

If the new nano wants to keep the current logos, why not have them as LED displays that change as you rotate the screen?

So for all of those of you hating the new landscape design, give it a chance and wait for the final release. The fatty was bagged beforehand. It looks so much better in real life.

And as someone else said, if you like the portrait format buy a fatty now (or the week after the new ones are announced when they clear stock as better prices - that's what most stores did here in Australia last time around when they pushed the 2G ones out the door for a few bucks off).

If the new nano screen isn't proper widescreen, think I'll be upgrading to a new Sony 2.4" screen. They play non-DRM AAC and any videos I converted (with Handbrake) into 320x240 5G iPod format. If iTunes goes non-DRM then it makes even more sense (unless you really think you need 640x480 videos or buy a lot of DRM TV/movies rather than ripping your own).

I love my touch but sometimes it's easier to chuck the Sony into your pocket for car use or out and about. I think it's hilarious seeing ads for touches used by joggers. A shuffle or some other CHEAP player would have to be better suited to that purpose. And less expensive when you fall over... :)

[dAlen]

Personally I think iTouch is a better name for it. :cool:

Agreed.

Who wants to say iPod Touch.
And to say the word Touch, by itself, doesnt leave one to know you are talking about apple.

Now the whole 'i' and 'me' thing is very 'apple'.
'iiiiii', 'me me me', etc. lol

so when you say 'i' with 'touch' you know its apple - and you save your self the time of saying 'pod'...what the heck is a 'pod' anyway. lol

By the way, Im friends of the midgets Andrew...and I think they like the name 'i touch'. :D

But in seriousness... I clicked on the comments in the thread and went to the last page automatically to find people bickering about a name...who really cares what you call it...does the person know what your talking about is the point?

Peace

dAlen

[dAlen]

I disagree. Would Apple make the nano look like a Bic lighter? Well... no.

My take: this thread will be a great study case for when bad ideas get traction. :-)

EDIT: I am not making a judgement on the design but just the plausibility of it being from Apple.

I would tend to agree that it is a weird design for the nano.
If its widescreen, I dont want to have to do acrobatics with my fingers and head to both scroll and view. :D

So the ipod touch seems to be the thing to use...why junk up the product line?

Peace

dAlen

[myapplesite]

I just hope that that new iPod touch or iPod nano will be competitive priced.

[koobcamuk]

WHY? Because you don't call a nano an iNano or a Mac an iMa...oh wait :D


iMac is the name of the desktop computer. It's not an abbreviation. There is no Macintosh computer currently, only these follow-ons.

I'll be jealous of the physical volume controls on the iPod Touch.

You have your own volume controls... whisper and shout are two of my favourites!

[tygelert]

I don't use "Mr." at all. I however do use people's full name. Or simply "SJ".

Besides, "Mac" isn't just short for "Macintosh" anymore. It's the official name. It's not called the Macintosh Pro, but Mac Pro, if you guys haven't noticed.

Do you guys also correct people when they ask for a "coke". Do you demand they should say "Coca-Cola" and "Pepsi Cola"?
:rolleyes:

If I order a Coke an a Pepsi turns up then I'll send it back.

[AlexisV]

Agreed.

Who wants to say iPod Touch.
And to say the word Touch, by itself, doesnt leave one to know you are talking about apple.

Now the whole 'i' and 'me' thing is very 'apple'.
'iiiiii', 'me me me', etc. lol

so when you say 'i' with 'touch' you know its apple - and you save your self the time of saying 'pod'...what the heck is a 'pod' anyway. lol

I just call it the iProd :D

[beer.coffee]

this iTouch conversation is still going?

get a life?

[teme]

By the way, how the cover flow would work with vertical screen? Does user have to turn iPod horizontally to scroll cover flow? And how about the games for clickwheel iPods, they need horizontal screen...

[Apple Ink]

Agreed that iTouch sounds much more..... er..... er Speakable but the "iPod" is the most essential part of the name considering it reflects the product class!

[SeaFox]

Yeah, I didn't read all 12 pages of this thread before I posted...

About this "rounded screen" crap. Isn't it more likely the Nano is rounded on it's casing, but the screen itself is still flat? That would protect the screen from scratches when sitting face down on a surface, since the front would be rounded it would rest on the apex of the curve and the screen would remain elevated from the surface it was sitting on. Only the left and right edge of the screen would be flush with the front of the casing than.

[archurban]

this iTouch conversation is still going?

get a life?

why do you ask that? are you actually excited to argue on it, do you? just ignore whatever....

[Detlev]

physical volume buttons are a nice addon to the touch... though I wonder why they had to make it slightly thicker to accommodate that.

Perhaps they needed more room in the case to house 64 gigs + a bigger battery?

I wonder if the addition of the buttons imply external speakers. One of the beauties of the iPhone is the ability of playback without having to use ear buds.

I must say I am disappointed in Apple's ability to maintain secrecy, as they once did. The events have been anti-climatic as of late because of all the leaks.

[Apple Ink]

I wonder if the addition of the buttons imply external speakers. One of the beauties of the iPhone is the ability of playback without having to use ear buds.

I must say I am disappointed in Apple's ability to maintain secrecy, as they once did. The events have been anti-climatic as of late because of all the leaks.

Seriously the speakers in iPhone are nothing short of average at best and Apple is better off preserving the iPod line up as iPod (which have always been without speakers)

Apple is growing (and exponentially at that). Now that it manufactures products in huge magnitudes than before.... its power over the Asian assemblers is dissolving! Also people are waking up to Apple... there are many more people poking in now than before!
Simply put.... there are way too many people to control now and many many more observant eyes than before! And in this regard, I'm very surprised to see that leaks are coming up just a couple of days before the public unveiling!

[C64]

iTouch or no iTouch...

I'm going to pick me up a nice fatty Nano today now I still can.

Who's with me?

Ha! Got one of the last black ones after 3 stores.

This thing is freakin' awesome. Glad I'm all set — no new non-fatty Nano for me!

[SadieLovatt]

Deal breaker for me is an internal speaker. I want to be able to sit and watch quick video content on my iPod touch without having to connect headphones... I don't care about the sound quality for a YouTube clip or video short, etc. External volume controls are very good addition, though.

You wouldn't be one of those insensitive individuals who "don't care" that the rest of the world don't want to hear what they are listening to either as well would you?

I travel to work on the bus and the most irritating thing aspect of the journey is the tinny squealing that comes out of (typically teenagers) mobile phone speakers. Music (if you can call it that), which I don't particularly want to hear but unless I put headphones on to blank out the racket, I have no choice.

Maybe Apple acknowledge that there is a demographic that don't care what other people think and as they don't want the Apple image to tarnished (as in 'those noisy iPods') decide not to waste their money on internal speakers.

If only the mobile phone companies would do the same, or at least limit the time the internal speaker could be used to the time it takes to go to voicemail.

Just put some headphones on, its a better sound and you would be being far more considerate to others.

Sadie.

[paola105]

I hope the new iPod Touch will be cheaper than the current one.
I will definitely get one! :cool:

[nitro230]

^^

I agree with you...slightly. Yes, I think you should be considerate to others when using any external speakers, but I do not think that a few people should be allowed to ruin it for everyone else. When I am in my own home or in a car with friends, and I want to share a song or a youtube video with them without having to play it 5 times cause of headphones, I feel that I should be able to. But more importantly, now that I can play games on the iPod Touch, I want it to be no different than my nintendo DS, which means that I should not have to plug in headphones everytime I want to play a quick game of Super Monkey Ball. Today, the majority of the public has some sort of external speakers on them whether its a cell phone or something else, but you only see a couple of inconsiderate people blasting it in public. Those few are going to do that whether or not the new Touch has external speakers, so it shouldnt even be an issue.

[SadieLovatt]

^^
...I do not think that a few people should be allowed to ruin it for everyone else. ...But more importantly, now that I can play games on the iPod Touch, I want it to be no different than my nintendo DS, which means that I should not have to plug in headphones everytime I want to play a quick game of Super Monkey Ball...

To be honest, I'm with you here as I've got a DS, something I've used on the bus with the volume down low (or off depending on how many people are around). The thing is, the DS is an interactive toy, whereas music is passive and its not ususual to see someone standing on a crowded bus with the thing blaring away... something you don't see with a games machine.

^^
Today, the majority of the public has some sort of external speakers on them whether its a cell phone or something else, but you only see a couple of inconsiderate people blasting it in public.

Back to my last point, an in-built speaker on a phone should really only be for ringtones and as for there being only "a couple of inconsiderate users"... this depends on the area and where I travel, in the past 4 months you can count the days on one hand where there hasn't been AT LEAST 1 insensitive idiot with his/her mobile blaring away.

Sadie.

[Ubuntu]

It's iPod TOuch not iTouch that really makes me mad when people say iTouch they sound like idiots who don't know anything about technology.

It's actually iPod touch, not iPod TOuch.

Seriously, grow up. Go get yourself a shrink or something.

[Lesser Evets]

About this "rounded screen" crap. Isn't it more likely the Nano is rounded on it's casing, but the screen itself is still flat?
I've been saying this for a week.

[Ubuntu]

Why would you get mad at what somebody calls an iPod?

I've no idea. Some people need to get out more, I guess.

[Lyra]

iTouch, you Touch we ALL Touch... late at night... :p

The fact is that the whole 'i' thing is getting to be a bit too much.

For me personally I still hate MacBook Pro or the MacPro...

Somehow it all sounded so much natural to say PowerMac and PowerBook.

Yet it's not the way the dice rolled when they chose these new names.

iBook is still better than MacBook. And AirBook just doesn't sound right at all.

Maybe they should have called it iSlice n' Dice! while they're at it. ;)

Who here agrees it's time for Apple to change names on their 'i' based products? Keep the iTunes and iPods... they work... it's a brand on their own. Keep iMac cause it's still if anyone remembers what the i stood for, just that. i originally stood for INTERNET MAC. Then it was associated with school etc... then it just exploded... now everything is iSomething....

Personally iDon't Care....

But iWant the current black Nano... or is it iNano... probably wouldn't work for a big guy... ;)

[kwk1]

Well if these measurements are correct, it's hardly any bigger.

You're talking 1mm in length, and .4 mm in thickness.

A dime is 1mm thick, so how can everybody be saying it's way bigger and thicker?

Of course, I'm refering to to Touch here.



So if Im reading this correctly:

New iPod nano: Height: 3.57 inches (90.75mm), Width 1.53 inches (38.75mm), Depth 0.24 inches (6.08mm) Total Volume: 1.311
Current iPod nano: Height: 2.75 inches (69.8 mm), Width: 2.06 inches (52.3 mm), Depth: 0.26 inch (6.5 mm) Total Volume: 1.473

New iPod touch: Height : 4.37 inches (111mm), Width: 2.43 inches (61.80mm), Depth 0.33 inches (8.40mm) Total Volume: 3.504
Current iPod touch: Height: 4.3 inches (110 mm), Width: 2.4 inches (61.8 mm), Depth: 0.31 inch (8 mm) Total Volume: 3.199

[Apple Ink]

I've been saying this for a week.

That'd be a tough call.... Apple doesnt usually prefer depressed portable screens! I take pleasure in iLounge's claim that there'll be no 'rounded' body frame! The nano is far too slim (both depth and breadth {considering we believe the rumor}) to carry such a thing off!

[gboss]

I actually hate earbuds in general. In additional to the disgust I find in actually putting them into your ear, earbuds provide worse sound quality, and are the main cause of damage to our ears. Open-ear-type headphones, which incidentally provide the best sound quality out there, also allow the sound to disperse a little more into the air, severely limiting any damage to your ears.

You've obviously never had the pleasure of using a high quality earbud.
I have the Shure e4c with the isolating triple flange tips. The sound quality is fantastic and since they isolate, I can listen at much lower volumes and save my hearing.

[ddTaylor]

As has been said earlier, it could use it because it slows an n network down to g speeds for all devices on that network.

I did realize that but fogot it - and I must admit I did not read the entire post or I would have seen that. I guess my question is this: how often does someone use the Touch or iPhone at the same time massive data transfers are occurring? I know - it happens sometimes but there is no Internet connection that can tax the theoretical maximum of the N or even G protocol. Unless you are doing video sharing through a home network or massive web-hosting or massive back-ups I just think it is overkill for N to be on the Touch. Not to mention the extra cost versus the overall demand for this addition.

I DO understnad WHY people might want N on the iPhone and Touch but it must be so small that Apple has chosen NOT to include that feature based on cost versus demand. Maybe next generation - I still have the original iPhone and I will keep it until the next major revision as the new iPhone is not much different in any respect including hardware, save for the GPS and 3G (which may be major to most - but here in Big 10 land there is no 3G until late '09).

Anyway - thanks for the heads-up. I did realize that but failed to recall it at the correct moment.

D

[Redline13]

A 32gb touch for $300 gets my money. Make it happen!

[turtlebud]

I was checking out the link for possible new ipod nano photo at alibaba and found some cases for a 2nd generation ipod touch. There looks like there's a little hole on the top left corner in the front of the case - i can only hope that it's for a camera (though it would make it a little hard to take pictures without using the screen as a viewfinder). either that or maybe it's an external speaker.

what else could it be (assuming these are actually real cases for the 2nd gen ipod touch)?

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/208809625/silicone_cases_for_iPod_Touch_2nd/showimage.html?

[Jack Flash]

I was checking out the link for possible new ipod nano photo at alibaba and found some cases for a 2nd generation ipod touch. There looks like there's a little hole on the top left corner in the front of the case - i can only hope that it's for a camera (though it would make it a little hard to take pictures without using the screen as a viewfinder). either that or maybe it's an external speaker.

what else could it be (assuming these are actually real cases for the 2nd gen ipod touch)?

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/208809625/silicone_cases_for_iPod_Touch_2nd/showimage.html?

The hole would be for the ambient light sensor. The larger hole on the right could be for a speaker.

[funnyfish7]

Looks entirely credible. Looking forward to the iTouch.

5 Easy to follow steps:

If it's and Apple product, and it starts with an "I", the second letter is upper case while the first letter is lower case. (e.g. iPod, iMac)

There is no hyphens in the word "iPod" whatsoever (e.g. I-pod :confused:)

If you ever see "i" and "Touch" together please immediately put a "Pod " in between (e.g. iTouch -> iPod Touch)

You may refer to an Apple product by changing the iPod prefix to "The" if "it" would also be appropriate in the same place. (e.g. Lets talk about my new iPod Touch. The Touch is a great device.)

If you have ever typed or written the word "I-touch" please refrain from using the internet.

:apple:

[mooreman]

It's iPod TOuch not iTouch that really makes me mad when people say iTouch they sound like idiots who don't know anything about technology.

iTouch, iTouch, iTouch, iTouch,iTouch, iTouch, iTouch, iTouch... (he says, looking toward the horizon for the inevitable mushroom cloud....)

[Lyra]

iTouch, iTouch, iTouch, iTouch,iTouch, iTouch, iTouch, iTouch... (he says, looking toward the horizon for the inevitable mushroom cloud....)

YOU PERV!!!

;)

[abercrombie]

this is good news. i'm still on ipod nano g2 and was trying to save money for g3 or an ipod touch but could never get around to buying one. i'm really crossing my fingers that there really is going to be some kind of announcement next week. :apple:

[ryanwarsaw]

5 Easy to follow steps:

If it's and Apple product, and it starts with an "I", the second letter is upper case while the first letter is lower case. (e.g. iPod, iMac)

There is no hyphens in the word "iPod" whatsoever (e.g. I-pod :confused:)

If you ever see "i" and "Touch" together please immediately put a "Pod " in between (e.g. iTouch -> iPod Touch)

You may refer to an Apple product by changing the iPod prefix to "The" if "it" would also be appropriate in the same place. (e.g. Lets talk about my new iPod Touch. The Touch is a great device.)

If you have ever typed or written the word "I-touch" please refrain from using the internet.

:apple:

If you are going to give tutorials, get it right at least. The letter that immediately follows iPod is never capitalized. It is the iPod touch. Even whoever wrote the article for this thread got that wrong.

If you don't believe me here is a site for your reference: www.apple.com

[iNassar]

how reliable are this things?

[SeaFox]

how reliable are this things?
Don't you love vague questions? ^^

How reliable are iPods?

How reliable are these rumors?

How reliable are vBulletin message boards?

[MrSEC]

well most the people i know who call it an iTouch are around 13-15 years old... so theres your answer...


Get off your high horse, Chrissy.;)

[sam10685]

please let the touch have 80GB or more. if they can fit 80GB into the classic and keep it nice and thin they can do it with the touch too. i'll be so excited if it's atleast 80GB.

HAH! not going to happen for years.