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MacRumors
Jan 15, 2004, 03:14 PM
MakeMusic.com (http://www.makemusic.com/) has announced that Finale 2004 for Mac OS X (http://www.finalemusic.com/finale/mac-commitment.asp) is complete and expected to ship on January 16th, 2004.

The Mac OS X native version of the popular music notation software has been long anticipated, with an initial announcement (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/08/20030806172430.shtml) of release back in October 2003, but was met with delays.

The new version will be Mac OS X only, with a version of OS 9 support coming in the future.

trptdude
Jan 15, 2004, 03:19 PM
my last classic app.....<tear>


death to os9!

:D

Fuchal
Jan 15, 2004, 03:21 PM
Now there are virtually zero software reasons not to make the jump to OS X!

Whee!

Grimace
Jan 15, 2004, 03:40 PM
Finale is the worst music notation software!!!

Sibelius is far more powerful and 50x easy to use.

http://www.sibelius.com

JohnGillilan
Jan 15, 2004, 03:41 PM
it's about time -- that took way too long

thepannist
Jan 15, 2004, 04:13 PM
While I agree that Sibelius is incredibly easy to use, it has no where near the power of finale. As a professional copyist, my company has every version of Finale and Sibelius on hand, but the one we use 99% of the time is Finale (2002, cause 2003 sucked).

Maybe in the next release Sibelius will be up to Finale's power, but as of now it is just not there.

I will agree, though, that for 90% of the people who need a music notation software (students, churches), Sibelius is the better choice because it is so easy.

I am very excited for 2004. Now I can finally get rid of my Dual 867 and get a new powerbook.

Grimace
Jan 15, 2004, 04:14 PM
Sibelius 3 beats Finale. Maybe not the Original sibelius.

sparkleytone
Jan 15, 2004, 04:18 PM
its about damn time. i have been so upset with makemusic/finalemusic/codamusic/lateassmusic for their failure to meet deadlines. i use sibelius for my own projects more and more, but the fact is that most of the music i receive from people is .MUS, which Sibelius doesn't take to very well. even an ETF file from Finale gets all screwed up in Sibelius.

dmazzoni
Jan 15, 2004, 04:21 PM
I and many other musicians and composers I know have a love/hate relationship with Finale. We hate how much they charge for upgrades, we hate how they've gone back on so many promises (they promised an OS X version years ago), we hate how the file format is proprietary, we hate how you have to go to convoluted dialog boxes and fiddle with numbers in order to tweak everything to get it to look just right.

But we still love Finale, because it can do anything. If you're just composing a short folk song for piano or guitar, it doesn't matter what music notation software you use; they're all good. But when you are trying to arrange for an orchestra (20+ parts) or jazz big band (16+ parts), all of a sudden none of the other programs, including Sibelius, stack up. Finale might be really confusing and poorly organized, but it simply has hundreds of features that none of the other tools have.

It's kind of like Microsoft Office. Other programs are cheaper, easier to use, and better in other ways, but everyone else already uses Microsoft Office, you already know how to use it, and no single other program can replace all of its features that you use.

Omad0n
Jan 15, 2004, 04:22 PM
I'm quite happy to see Finale on OSX. Though I do agree it took too long. At least I won't have to use os9 anymore. it's certainly a program worth learning to use to its full potential. Particulalrly when you're composing something that requires many different instruments.

kinless
Jan 15, 2004, 04:38 PM
There's always another alternative, Encore 4.5.4. Yes, it is STILL around, contrary to a lot of people thinking the company went under.

Been using Encore for 10 years. Can't think of using anything else right now. Find it at www.gvox.com (http://www.gvox.com) .

It's also Carbonized, so it'll work either OS9 or OSX.

Squire
Jan 15, 2004, 04:44 PM
Cool. I was reading about the upgrade a short while ago. It's nice to see that they're shipping.

So, assuming money isn't a problem, I'll try Garage Band, the check out Finale 2004, and then grab myself a copy of Logic Express.

Then get an agent. ;)

Squire

Rex44
Jan 15, 2004, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by dmazzoni
It's kind of like Microsoft Office. Other programs are cheaper, easier to use, and better in other ways, but everyone else already uses Microsoft Office, you already know how to use it, and no single other program can replace all of its features that you use.

I think the Office analogy (and just about everything else you said) is spot on. Mind you I have a pretty old version of Finale, and am not terribly up to speed with exactly where all the current alternatives are at.

Does anybody know how Logic's notating capabilities compare with current versions of Finale, Sibelius and the others? I'm thinking of updating all my legacy music apps all at once this year, and today's announcement of the imminent Logic Pro integrated solution does sort of call out to me.

macomposer
Jan 15, 2004, 07:27 PM
I'll believe the Finale upgrade is actually ready when I see the box show up. They've BSed and jerked us around so much on this upgrade that I remain skeptical that it is actually on the way. It's interesting that for so many of us, Finale remains our last OS9/Classic app.

I've used Finale since 1991, but was getting ready to consider a switch to Sibelius. I've stuck with Finale because it does so well with the problems encountered in avant-garde notation, including flexible customizations and ability to import a broad variety of graphics.

Like most of you, I have a love-hate relationship with Finale.

masterjedi73
Jan 15, 2004, 07:55 PM
Will Sibelius 2.1 work on OS X?

mbeard829
Jan 15, 2004, 10:18 PM
I gave up on Finale last year after a long wait and bought Sibelius 3. It is a great program and I will not go back to Finale.

Michael

ericdano
Jan 16, 2004, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by trptdude
my last classic app.....<tear>


death to os9!

:D

My last OS 9 app too. And about time. I hate having to deal with it in Classic mode.......

ericdano
Jan 16, 2004, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by carletonmusic
Finale is the worst music notation software!!!

Sibelius is far more powerful and 50x easy to use.

http://www.sibelius.com

Easy, perhaps, as powerful. Not even close. Finale is the program to notate music. Deal with it.

ericdano
Jan 16, 2004, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by thepannist
While I agree that Sibelius is incredibly easy to use, it has no where near the power of finale. As a professional copyist, my company has every version of Finale and Sibelius on hand, but the one we use 99% of the time is Finale (2002, cause 2003 sucked).

Maybe in the next release Sibelius will be up to Finale's power, but as of now it is just not there.

I will agree, though, that for 90% of the people who need a music notation software (students, churches), Sibelius is the better choice because it is so easy.

I am very excited for 2004. Now I can finally get rid of my Dual 867 and get a new powerbook.

Yeah, I haven't read a chart yet that looks good on Sibelius. They all have formatting problems, and things that just don't happen with Finale.

Selling your dual G4? Hmm, how much? ;-)

thepannist
Jan 16, 2004, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by ericdano
Yeah, I haven't read a chart yet that looks good on Sibelius. They all have formatting problems, and things that just don't happen with Finale.

Selling your dual G4? Hmm, how much? ;-)

I think they are going for about 1000 on ebay, but that is a topic for another thread and another day.

mahermusic
Jan 16, 2004, 08:04 AM
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mahermusic
Jan 16, 2004, 08:08 AM
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mahermusic
Jan 16, 2004, 08:13 AM
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masterjedi73
Jan 16, 2004, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by mahermusic
Sibelius 2.1 has been able to work on OS X for, a year and a half now? I forgot when I received my copies, but I've written at LEAST two of my shows on it.

Nice. I have it for Windows right now, but want to upgrade to mac. Does it run well?

Also, what kind of shows do you write?

Squire
Jan 16, 2004, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by mahermusic
Sorry.. not in a LONG SHOT. As a professional music arranger/orchestrator, SIBELIUS is the only acceptable application.

1- More powerful

2- Much easier to use

3- Has been carbonized for OS X for around TWO YEARS.

From someone in the business... There's Sibelius, and then there's nothing.

Some guy named Wynton Marsalis seems to think otherwise. ;) From the Finale site:
--------------------------
"We use Finale because it's the best. Enough said."

Wynton Marsalis
Musician, Composer, Band leader, Pulitzer Prize and Grammy Winner

<edit: Just kidding. I'm sure Sibelius is a great program, too. I'll make sure I try them both before I make a decision. Thanks for the recommendation. By the way, I do know who Marsalis is.>

mahermusic
Jan 16, 2004, 08:34 AM
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masterjedi73
Jan 16, 2004, 08:40 AM
Nice. I do some of the same things on Sibelius, and actually work close to you! I'm the percussion director at Watchung Hills in Warren, NJ. I use Sibelius mostly for my middle school band and choir arrangements, though. It worked great last year when we wrote out instrument parts for Godspell. An unbelievable program! I would never switch to Finale at this point.

Thanks for the info. I had heard some people complain about how Sibelius ran on their mac.

mahermusic
Jan 16, 2004, 08:40 AM
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Squire
Jan 16, 2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by mahermusic
"I have found Sibelius a powerful and effective tool"

Michael Tilson Thomas
conductor & composer


Um.... I'd put a little more weight behind Thomas, then ..... Marsalis :-)

"I have found Windows XP a powerful and effective tool."

Squire
MacRumors member


Hey, just kidding. What's wrong? Don't you dig Wynton? All jokes aside, I appreciate the comments. Hopefully, I'll be able to give Sibelius a go.

Squire

mahermusic
Jan 16, 2004, 11:03 AM
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trptdude
Jan 16, 2004, 01:26 PM
Marsalis? .....oh, he's just some dude who won a Pulitzer for composition and plays circles around just about everyone.. not dissing MTT, just saying that it's about the final product, not the tool (except where macs are concerned) :)


BTW, when Sib. gets a scroll view, I'll take a second look, til then I gotta stick w/ Finale and pay the forced upgrade fee every year (I do a lot of collaborative work and all it takes is one person getting the upgrade to force everyone else to fork over the cash)

TTFN

mahermusic
Jan 16, 2004, 01:34 PM
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ericdano
Jan 16, 2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by mahermusic
"I have found Sibelius a powerful and effective tool"

Michael Tilson Thomas
conductor & composer


Um.... I'd put a little more weight behind Thomas, then ..... Marsalis :-)

And I'd put a little more weight behind Warner Brothers and Berklee School of music who use Finale.

mahermusic
Jan 16, 2004, 05:22 PM
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ericdano
Jan 16, 2004, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by mahermusic
Its Berklee COLLEGE of Music, and I'd put more weight behind Temple University's Esther Boyer College of Music over Berklee ANY DAY.

Temple, by the way, uses Sibelius.


Who the heck has ever hear of Temple....???!?!?

Oh, and PLEASE don't start with Warner Bros. I can tell they use Finale with all the mistakes in their scores and parts. Ives' "Second Symphony" and "The Wizard of Oz" are so chock full of lovelies that I have to stop a rehearsal just to fix notation errors.

Notation errors have NOTHING to do with the program used.

mahermusic
Jan 17, 2004, 12:19 AM
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trptdude
Jan 17, 2004, 01:04 AM
"never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig"

folks, if we take a poll of people who make their living PRIMARILY from composition or orchestration, Finale is the clear market leader.... doesn't mean it's a superior app, but let's not make this a Sibelius infomercial..... there's enough of that drivel to wade through in the Finale forums.

BTW, Finale is still the superior app because of it's abiliy to do anything that you an think up to put on a page (sometime in a confusing, yet accurate, way)

IMHO, FWIW, etc.

Squire
Jan 17, 2004, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by mahermusic
Silly person, here are your answers:

1- Never heard of Temple University? You're only embarassing yourself. I'll let you alone on that one. (Might want to double-check your spelling of "heard". They teach College Composition at Temple as well...)

...You're out of your league on this one, buddy. Goodbye.

I once read that it is petty to point out spelling or grammatical errors on these forums. Even so, I have to admit, it is tempting at times. ;) I always hold back, though, because I know that everybody is bound to make the odd mistake. I suggest you exercise the same restraint for the same reason. (See below.)

Originally posted by mahermusic
Um.... I'd put a little more weight behind Thomas, then ..... Marsalis :-)

At any rate, we all seem to be getting off topic. Ah, Finale 2004 for the Mac...right. So it seems that some people feel it's a good product while others swear by the rival program, Sibelius. I guess most people will have to demo both of them and decide which one they like better. That's what I plan on doing.

Have a great weekend.

Squire

mahermusic
Jan 17, 2004, 01:10 AM
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ericdano
Jan 17, 2004, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by mahermusic
Yes, it MUST be IYHO, because, not only do we understand that Sibelius is FAR SUPERIOR to finale, Sibelius was carbonized for OS X a full TWO YEARS before finale.

"Dreamers never achieve"

PLEASE don't talk to us about finale being superior... in its OS 9 state. Not only is it making you look silly, but the reason Sibelius is on top is because finale STILL has not released a OS X version.

Reality hurts.

Oh please. True, Finale is late getting to OS X, but that is not what it is all about. Being able to do WHATEVER you want with your music is what it is about.

I still know people using Protools on OS 9. In fact, I recorded in a studio using Protools on a Mac 9500 under OS 9 this past MAY. Does it mean Protools sucks or is inferior because it doesn't run on OS X? Not at all.

I tried Sibelius in October when Coda missed their ship date. I found it lacking to Finale, and it was damn slow. It's ability to read midi files from Digital Performer was worse than Finale (I didn't think that was possible, but it is), and generating parts was a pain. Finale and TGTools is heaven for anyone serious about being productive. I can't see any way to get Sibelius to do what Finale does.

trptdude
Jan 17, 2004, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by mahermusic
Yes, it MUST be IYHO, because, not only do we understand that Sibelius is FAR SUPERIOR to finale, Sibelius was carbonized for OS X a full TWO YEARS before finale.

"Dreamers never achieve"

PLEASE don't talk to us about finale being superior... in its OS 9 state. Not only is it making you look silly, but the reason Sibelius is on top is because finale STILL has not released a OS X version.

Reality hurts.

so does Temple U offer any training in social skills..... I didn't think so....

Squire
Jan 17, 2004, 05:55 AM
It looks like the demo for Finale will be available next month. I'm looking forward to giving it a try.

<Off topic: Hey, ericdano, do you mind if I send you a PM? I came across your name in a web search and I want to get your opinion on something.>

Squire

mahermusic
Jan 17, 2004, 08:37 AM
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mahermusic
Jan 17, 2004, 08:39 AM
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Squire
Jan 17, 2004, 08:55 AM
After you've written something, does Sibelius let you go back and edit it? Mac Forums does. ;) Bottom right corner.

You seem quite passionate about the program so I checked out their website. One thing I noticed was that you could only input via a MIDI device whereas Finale lets a brass or woodwind player input from a mic. So I have 2 questions:

1) Is there a way to have your notation entered as you play a brass or woodwind instrument?

2) Have you (or anyone, for that matter) heard about the accuracy of this feature in Finale 2004? (It's called MicNotator.)

Thanks,

Squire

mahermusic
Jan 17, 2004, 10:02 AM
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rrr
Jan 17, 2004, 11:04 AM
I still know people using Protools on OS 9. In fact, I recorded in a studio using Protools on a Mac 9500 under OS 9 this past MAY. Does it mean Protools sucks or is inferior because it doesn't run on OS X? Not at all.


ProTools does run on OS X.

http://www.digidesign.com

ericdano
Jan 17, 2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by mahermusic
Tough, ain't it? See, now when I brought home a demo copy of finale at MENC this past year, things were so awkward, and slow, that I found it counter-productive. I understood why all of the Music Colleges up in my area switched over to Sibelius. Sending the parts that I wrote to my .Mac website was faster (for some reason... should be the same), and the overall feel of finale was uninspiring. Sibelius reminds me more of the Mac itself... I can do ANYTHING that I need it to do, easier and faster!!!

Wait, you come off as the "authority" in previous posts, then now admit you had a DEMO copy. How long did you use it? 10 Minutes? Try the manual? Watch the demo videos? Didn't think so.

I own BOTH. Sibelius is collection virtual dust on my Hard Drive.

When you actually TRY to use Finale, then maybe you can come back and state your opinions. I tried to use Sibelius. I have 2 charts I wrote in it. And that was it. I was fighting the program left and right. I couldn't get it to format right, articulations were not right, etc. It was back to Finale after that.

masterjedi73
Jan 17, 2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by ericdano
Wait, you come off as the "authority" in previous posts, then now admit you had a DEMO copy. How long did you use it? 10 Minutes? Try the manual? Watch the demo videos? Didn't think so.

I own BOTH. Sibelius is collection virtual dust on my Hard Drive.

When you actually TRY to use Finale, then maybe you can come back and state your opinions. I tried to use Sibelius. I have 2 charts I wrote in it. And that was it. I was fighting the program left and right. I couldn't get it to format right, articulations were not right, etc. It was back to Finale after that.

I think what it comes down to is personal preference. At this point I don't think we can really say that one is better than the other. I used to use Finale, but switched when Sibelius 2 came out. I find the interface to be much easier and user friendly, and it does more than what I need it to do. Notation using either midi input or QWERTY keyboard is very simple and fast. But I have friends who swear by Finale, so it just depends on what you like, I guess. I do agree with the previous poster that using Sibelius is a lot like using a Mac. Very simple.

mahermusic
Jan 17, 2004, 02:44 PM
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mahermusic
Jan 17, 2004, 02:46 PM
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ericdano
Jan 17, 2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by masterjedi73
I think what it comes down to is personal preference. At this point I don't think we can really say that one is better than the other. I used to use Finale, but switched when Sibelius 2 came out. I find the interface to be much easier and user friendly, and it does more than what I need it to do. Notation using either midi input or QWERTY keyboard is very simple and fast. But I have friends who swear by Finale, so it just depends on what you like, I guess. I do agree with the previous poster that using Sibelius is a lot like using a Mac. Very simple.

I suppose. The deal killer for me is that they don't have SCROLL view in Sibelius.

ericdano
Jan 17, 2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by mahermusic
Sorry, you lose again (as usual, getting to be common here in this forum with you) I TRIED using finale for three months, not ten minutes, but I admit... that was cute. 10 minutes. You must've been up late thinking that cute one up.

Actually, any SMART person..... will try out or demo a program before purchasing it. The four orchestrations I wrote at school using finale were some of the most grueling experiences I had EVER had, with ANY program, on a computer. Not only is the program slow, dynamics would never register or appear on the extracted parts. There is no reason for this, and it never happened on Sibelius, which, by the way, is MUCH FASTER and powerful.
finale is WAY overbloated with options that, unfortunately, just don't work. Reminds me of Windows!

Switched to Sibelius (along with all the schools and universities around here, and never looked back.)

Thanks for purchasing a copy of Sibelius, though! At least I didn't have to waste money on finale.

You Lose... Game Over!

Whatever guy. Perhaps you need to get banned from here. Have fun using Sibelius at Temple U or where ever the hell you use it.

Grimace
Jan 17, 2004, 05:06 PM
Finale vs. Sibelius is like PC vs. Mac

People who don't know any better use Finale. Once you switch over (or even testdrive) Sibelius - no one ever goes back. It's innovative and simple - yet very powerful....just like Macs.

gotbrett
Jan 17, 2004, 05:50 PM
I'm a music education student about to go student teaching. I have used Finale for the past 7 years or so pretty regularly (since most of high school).

I have done very "normal" notation as well as a great deal of "funky" notation for projects for professors.

However, the high school teacher I will be working with this Spring during my student teaching uses Sibelius for playback/note learning for his students. He does this instead of being behind the piano during rehearsals and it seems to work great during my observations.

What's nice about Sibelius that makes it a very interesting tool for this purpose is that you can actually do volume adjustments for the individual parts in playback and not just off/on. This is very useful when you want to play all parts perhaps, but really bring out the alto part when working on their notes, or play the piano full volume but only have their parts played *SLIGHTLY* to help a little?

Human playback (including proper ritardations and dynamic changes) is also existent in Siblelius. Supposedly it's now included in Finale but it's a "new" feature and I suspect will not be great in the first iteration. It works pretty damn well from what I've seen in Sibelius.

This right there is the reason I will be looking at Sibelius instead of Finale for the future.

Brett

Squire
Jan 17, 2004, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by masterjedi73
I think what it comes down to is personal preference.

Amen.

No one has used Finale 2004 on a Mac yet (correct?) so I guess time will tell how it stacks up.

Squire

mahermusic
Jan 17, 2004, 08:36 PM
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mahermusic
Jan 17, 2004, 08:37 PM
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habibbijan
Jan 17, 2004, 11:21 PM
I would like to quietly observe that I've never met a REAL composer/arranger that felt inhibited by his/her personal choice of notation program. Livid arguments about which is better are usually perpetuated by people whose composition skills don't quite match up with their arguing skills, so they use the latter to bluff and bluster the former.

Yes, it is a shame that it took Finale this long to finally carbonize. It has frustrated and disappointed many users, including your's truly. However, it is finished, and I look forward to using it.

Finale is not inferior. Neither is it superior. Sibelius is also a respectable program. I really think the choice has much more to do with your working style, and whether or not you are comfortable with a given platform already.

In any case, there are a whole lot of composers doing fine work on each platform, and it's an interesting sidenote that the better composers are generally too inundated with real notation work to have time to develop pissing matches about programs.

gotbrett
Jan 17, 2004, 11:40 PM
>Finale is not inferior. Neither is it superior. Sibelius is also a >respectable program. I really think the choice has much more to >do with your working style, and whether or not you are >comfortable with a given platform already.

From what I've heard and seen Sibelius has always been the "easier" program and Finale the more "complete."

Now the look of Finale for OS X (at least the screenshots, as I don't think any of us has actually seem a running copy yet) appears to take a lot of the look and feel of Sibelius. Perhaps edging it closer to the "ease-of-use" of Sibelius.

Sibelius on the other hand, appears to slowly be adding more and more feature parity with Finale...

Seems like competition is doing the right thing, and we will be getting two better products.

DrGruv1
Jan 18, 2004, 12:09 AM
I took a summer course with Doug Hicks from Akron (great person by the way). We spent half the course on Finale and the second half on Sibelius.

I am a long time finale user.

I was able to work MUCH faster on Sibelius with the speedy note entry.

Finale saw the writing on the wall and fixed their program to work EXACTLY like Sibelius - VERY SWEET

Through competition, Finale HAD to make their program better.

I have been disappointed by delays and am waitting for my finale copy to arrive...

mahermusic
Jan 18, 2004, 08:54 AM
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Squire
Jan 18, 2004, 09:21 AM
habibbijan,

Nice first post. Welcome to the MacRumors forums.

Squire

Oirectine
Jan 20, 2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by ericdano
And I'd put a little more weight behind Warner Brothers and Berklee School of music who use Finale.


Hey, I go to Berklee, and I can tell you, Finale is the most convoluted, confusing program I've ever used. I've never tried Sibilius but I would not be surprised to find that I liked it much more.

I'm no idiot. I can usually figure out what I want to do on computers, whatever it is (I compile stuff regularly, write shell scripts, read /. every day, etc). I picked up other programs, like Reason, in no time. However, when it takes me a half hour to figure out how to copy a single bar of a drum groove, or I have to ask the guy at the front desk of the computer lab how to add a legato mark to my melody, there is definitely a problem. Finale is a freaking LESSON in horrible UI design. It's a nightmare to use, and I know many people here who agree with me.

But anywho, just because Berklee uses a program doesn't make it better. We have Digital Performer 4 on all our computer labs. Does that make it better than Protools, Logic, Cubase? No. There's simply a need to standardize such programs for the entire school, for classes and such. Berklee also uses the imperial system of weights and measures. Is that superior to the metric system?

Also, there is no one notation program that can be all things to all musicians. Depending on your needs, preferences, the way you work, people are obviously going to have different opinions, and they're all correct. I thought that was obvious but apparently some people are religious about their notation software.

Heh, this thread is pretty old, I wonder if anybody will actually read this.

mahermusic
Jan 20, 2004, 04:48 PM
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