Why get a Blu-Ray Disc drive for a Mac Pro when it's not supported in OS X?

[UltraNEO*]

I'm a little curious.

Why are there so many people installing Blu-Ray drives on their MacPro's knowing full well the
OS doesn't support it? You know it's not gonna play any movies - what so ever!!! Don't you?
You did do some research prior to buying the hardware, no?

So, one can only assume your installing them, so you can use them as cheap mass storage
device perhaps, for backup and maybe film production? I sure do hope so.. cause burning to
BR is somewhat limited for now.

Sorry, I've read so many thread on those forums recently about people who've installed
BR drives only to discover they can't play movies or burn BR disks via the OS... and in
a way, it's funny!!


BR Drives on the Mac is for Cheap Mass Storage and maybe Film production only.
Mac's don't have HDCP compliance and most users don't want it. Me included.

[Tallest Skil]

There's a little thing called data.

HDCP movies are worthless, correct.

OS X supports Blu-ray data. Some people like being able to back up their data.

[UltraNEO*]

There's a little thing called data.

HDCP movies are worthless, correct.

OS X supports Blu-ray data. Some people like being able to back up their data.

Sorry I should of used the term "cheap mass storage data backup". If that's the case then
it's nice to see so many active users whiling to backup their data...

However, for some of the threads, that isn't the case, people are moaning cause OSX isn't
BR compatible. For the regulars here, we know this, cause Apple hasn't jumped on that road yet.

:rolleyes:

[m1stake]

I'd just buy a few hard drive for the price of the burner.

[UltraNEO*]

I'd just buy a few hard drive for the price of the burner.

Yeah... I hear you here, it make much more sense in some respects. How much are burners overseas, I'm in Japan. they're getting cheap by the week!!

However, when your sending work away, a few HD's is just not cost effective considering the weight and all.... Usually I send work via optical fibre but there's a huge problem when your client ain't on fibre!

[noushy]

The MacOS does not support HDCP, the hardware other than the Apple Cinema Display does as far as HD protected content goes. Can boot into vista or winxp and play movies if you wish. I am sure that once the new Cinema Displays are out, Apple will add BD support for movies as well. The 8800GT card clearly supports HDCP, and any core2 chip is more than powerful enough. The problem lies in no player and having to use a 3rd party monitor for HDCP.

Peace,
Noushy

[nanofrog]

However, when your sending work away, a few HD's is just not cost effective considering the weight and all.... Usually I send work via optical fibre but there's a huge problem when your client ain't on fibre!
Hmm...$2.00USD to ship BR/DVD disk vs. $20.00USD to ship an HDD*. :rolleyes:
Of course they don't have fibre. Cheap bastards. :D :p

So long as someone has an HDCP compliant monitor, they can use Boot Camp and run windows for full BR compatibility. :eek: :D

* All prices are approximate, and likely to go skyward in the current economy. ;)

[UltraNEO*]

The MacOS does not support HDCP, the hardware other than the Apple Cinema Display does as far as HD protected content goes. Can boot into vista or winxp and play movies if you wish. I am sure that once the new Cinema Displays are out, Apple will add BD support for movies as well. The 8800GT card clearly supports HDCP, and any core2 chip is more than powerful enough. The problem lies in no player and having to use a 3rd party monitor for HDCP.

Peace,
Noushy

That's not the only problem...

If you dig deeper, you'll know the lower optical drive slot only has a IDE connector. There are two Odd SATA ports on the logic board but as per usual Apple doesn't supply cables (so, the user will have to buy and route them in yourselves).

Oh... as default they're not easily enabled under the Windows environment but the important thing is they work perfectly find under Mac.. Yay!! Atleast Apple got that part right! :D

[m1stake]

However, when your sending work away, a few HD's is just not cost effective considering the weight and al

WRONG! :p I don't know what the policies are in Japan, but in the US we have media rates that make "media" shipping CHEAP. Don't ask why, but I've sent a few HDD's to relatives. I had to argue for it a little bit, but the USPS people don't care. And if they do, just put a few cheap books ontop of it (At garage sales or used book stores) and you can get the rate that way also. Even with the extra weight of the books you still save a bundle.

I love media rate.

[UltraNEO*]

WRONG! :p I don't know what the policies are in Japan, but in the US we have media rates that make "media" shipping CHEAP. Don't ask why, but I've sent a few HDD's to relatives. I had to argue for it a little bit, but the USPS people don't care. And if they do, just put a few cheap books ontop of it (At garage sales or used book stores) and you can get the rate that way also. Even with the extra weight of the books you still save a bundle.

I love media rate.

Er... What? Media Rates.. :o
Does that apply to International destinations too or just domestic? And is that 24/48hours before 10am delivery?

[Rankrotten]

So long as someone has an HDCP compliant monitor, they can use Boot Camp and run windows for full BR compatibility. :eek: :D


Indeed. I've just run the BD Advisor which comes with the LG drive and it tells me my HDCP chain is good to go. Good except the internal SATA port is not (yet) seen by Vista.

(LG Blu-Ray / Int SATA) > MacPro > Radeon HD3870x2 > DVI > Samsung 244T display. ;)

Of course the BD burner is for backing up my Canon RAW files onto Delkin Gold BD-R archival disks rated at 200 years longevity. No way a hard drive will last 20.

[nanofrog]

Er... What? Media Rates.. :o
Does that apply to International destinations too or just domestic? And is that 24/48hours before 10am delivery?
Media rates are a classification offered by the US Postal Service. Domestic only, and similar to first class mail, so no 24/48 hr delivery. :(

Out of curiosity, I checked the cost of a 8 oz. large envelope to Japan. $6.80USD First Class, and just shy of $39.00USD overnight. Ouch! :eek:

[ChemiosMurphy]

I use Encore to author HD independent films onto Blu-Ray.

[Lord Zedd]

BR is not a "cheap mass storage data backup". BR disks still cost $0.28-0.30/GB while a 1TB HD costs only $0.14/GB, takes very little time to copy large volumes of data, is endlessly rewritable, and takes up much less space than 40 BD-R discs.

[Cubit]

I have installed BD drives for some friends in the media industry because; a) (as others have already mentioned) it is much cheaper to ship optical media, certainly in the UK anyway, than an HDD and it is less likely to get damaged, and, b) as some of you may be aware, some parts of england have a strong tendency to flood. In these situations optical media stands up much better than magnetic. Although the one company that was affect had plenty of other backup systems in place, it is far better to be safe than sorry.

[Ludacrisvp]

That's not the only problem...

If you dig deeper, you'll know the lower optical drive slot only has a IDE connector. There are two Odd SATA ports on the logic board but as per usual Apple doesn't supply cables (so, the user will have to buy and route them in yourselves).

Oh... as default they're not easily enabled under the Windows environment but the important thing is they work perfectly find under Mac.. Yay!! Atleast Apple got that part right! :D

So are you saying that someone actually got the ODD_SATA ports to work under windows?
If so please point me in the direction of how.
I was trying for a while to use my 2 SATA Samsung drives that are better than the Optiarc crap "SuperDrive" but no use in Windows made me go back to the Optiarc.

[nanofrog]

So are you saying that someone actually got the ODD_SATA ports to work under windows?
If so please point me in the direction of how.
I was trying for a while to use my 2 SATA Samsung drives that are better than the Optiarc crap "SuperDrive" but no use in Windows made me go back to the Optiarc.
Perhaps this may help. :)
Got the GGW-H20L installed in my Mac Pro 1,1 in the lower optical bay using the ODD SATA port on the motherboard. When I say installed I really mean with much scraping of knuckles and cursing as the connector is not user friendly.

Being an 06 Mac Pro the ODD ports work fine in OSX - except for Toast BD burning which has been mentioned above. However I need some help with Bootcamp as the ODD SATA ports 5 + 6 are not working in Vista as previously reported.

In Vista's device manager it lists the ATA/ATAPI controllers as:
"Intel(R) 631xESB/6321ESB/3100 Chipset Serial ATA Storage Controller - 2680" The chipset driver should read "SATA AHCI Controller" 2681 for ports 5+6 to be active in AHCI mode.

Intel has the AHCI drivers for the Mac Pro's motherboard on their site
http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?agr=Y&Inst=Yes&ProductID=2308&DwnldID=14494&strOSs=All&OSFullName=All%20Operating%20Systems&lang=eng
but I cannot find a way to install it as there is no real BIOS on Bootcamp.

Could someone give me a runthrough as to installing GRUB as a bootloader in this scenario if it is the only way to enable it.
This thread (http://forum.onmac.net/showthread.php?t=2739) (different forum) may also help. Gives some detail on the subject (AHCI for a Mac Pro).
If you try this, and it's successful, please post. It could definitely help other members. :D

[noushy]

The two lower ports work fine, both under windows and mac. Just need to install intel drivers (chipset driver, latest package recognizes 5400B and ESB southbridge). My macpro came with a pioneer drive, they are typically decent, but it is pata.

Noushy

[Rankrotten]

Any special way of installing the chipset driver?

[TheStrudel]

The fact that so many are bemused by the interest in a BD-R drive for OS X shows how few around here are buying the Mac Pros to edit video. If I've shot and edited a project for a client in HD, I only have two realistic choices for delivery if they want HD: An H.264 quicktime movie playable on their computers, compatible media devices (H.264, PS3, TV, etc.), or a Blu-ray disc. And mailing a HDD is laughable for this kind of thing. Generally, when people pay for video services, they expect to get a disc they can use out of it. HDDs are also unsuitable for disseminating copies of something for consumption by multiple people.

That said, I want DVD Studio Pro to support BDs; I want Toast to support the LG GGW-H20L (or at least the GBW-H20L...anybody know if that works with it? Free of the driver issues people had with the GGW?) for burning video BDs out through the motherboard SATA port. When these conditions are filled, I have every reason to buy into Blu-ray. Until then...I'm holding out as long as I can. In the meantime, I'm hoping nobody asks me for an HD disc, because that'll be lost sales, unless I somehow scraped the cash together or tack on a large enough premium to buy me the requisite hardware.

[CaptainChunk]

BR is not a "cheap mass storage data backup". BR disks still cost $0.28-0.30/GB while a 1TB HD costs only $0.14/GB, takes very little time to copy large volumes of data, is endlessly rewritable, and takes up much less space than 40 BD-R discs.

Okay, perhaps this is a fair argument for someone that doesn't do professional media work.

When you have to ship very large image sequences and raw footage to post houses for color correction, VFX work, online, etc., hard drives are often impractical for two reasons: 1) they're mechanical devices prone to failure; and 2) they cost a lot more to ship, especially when you need to overnight stuff. (yeah, that doesn't happen in our industry... :rolleyes:)

DVD-Rs (even the dual-layer variety) are becoming less and less useful to me. I run into a lot of situations where an uncompressed file will exceed the 7.8GB of binary data you can realistically write to a DVD+R DL. So yes, there are times when I wish I had a BD-R drive, but then there's the issue of whether the recipient of the disc can actually read it. You can get single-write BD-Rs for around $7 each now, or $0.28 per GB. It doesn't seem that cost effective at first glance, but if I can prevent overnight shipping a hard drive (which can easily cost over $100), it's a cost ratio I'm willing to deal with.

BD-Rs would also prove useful for footage archival. I have a hard time trusting a mechanical device with data that valuable to me. So, you have to look into alternatives. You can back up to tape (painfully SLOW process, but it works), but optical disc is surely a lot more convenient. So say you have 100GB of raw footage to archive. Would you rather do that on 4 single-layer BD-Rs or 12 DVD+R DLs? The last film I worked on had about 1.6TB of raw footage... I'm not about to archive that onto DVDs.

[Lord Zedd]

Honestly, I'd trust backup to an external dedicated hard drive over tape any day.

If a drive fails, you can easily get it repaired by any one of the data restore companies. If a component fails, they can replace it in their clean room and get it back. They can even put the platters into a new drive (Very $$$$$ for platter swaps though!)

If a tape gets unraveled, you're SOL.

[CaptainChunk]

If a drive fails, you can easily get it repaired by any one of the data restore companies. If a component fails, they can replace it in their clean room and get it back. They can even put the platters into a new drive (Very $$$$$ for platter swaps though!)


I realize that this is possible, but...

Do you have any clue how incredibly expensive hard disk repair and low-level data recovery actually is? Most places charge per megabyte, it isn't always 100% successful and you'll get charged an arm and a leg either way.

Properly stored/handled tapes and optical media will far outlast any mechanical hard drive.

[bbq2k]

Just wading into the fray over HDD vs BR vs tape. As I see it, with per GB savings at 50% and steadily rising, it makes more sense to use HDDs and double them for redundancy. I edit video, so my storage needs are massive. BR for data storage has been too slow out of the gate to capture the market--it's still too expensive and not ubiquitous. Also, let's face it, 50GB is next year's Zip Drive. It's just not sufficiently robust, (size, speed, price) to be a serious player in the storage market. Even though it appears to be the future of video distribution, I doubt that we'll be using plastic disks at all in five years, thank goodness.

[Lord Zedd]

Yes, Sony wants BR's lifespan to be 10years. I'd bet that before Sony's 10 year point we'll be seeing 300-500GB holographic data storage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_memory) discs becoming cheap enough for average consumers. There is already a company selling discs and burners, although the drive costs $16,000 right now (As did CD, DVD and BR burners when they emerged).

http://geekswithblogs.net/images/geekswithblogs_net/kit/4223/r_holographic%20disc.jpg

[TheStrudel]

Just wading into the fray over HDD vs BR vs tape. As I see it, with per GB savings at 50% and steadily rising, it makes more sense to use HDDs and double them for redundancy. I edit video, so my storage needs are massive. BR for data storage has been too slow out of the gate to capture the market--it's still too expensive and not ubiquitous. Also, let's face it, 50GB is next year's Zip Drive. It's just not sufficiently robust, (size, speed, price) to be a serious player in the storage market. Even though it appears to be the future of video distribution, I doubt that we'll be using plastic disks at all in five years, thank goodness.

I disagree. Blu-ray is intended as a format for consumption of HD video, first of all. Its data use is a secondary (though welcome) consideration. Second, TDK & co. have already boosted Blu-ray discs to 200 GB. And as mentioned, shipping out a bunch of HDDs to 20-30 people is a lousy way to move footage to them. And, as it has been mentioned several times, BDs have been adopted at a rate that far outstrips how long it took DVDs to get a foot in the door. Speaking as an editor myself, I think it would be more convenient to back a whole (SD) completed project up to a single BD-R and leave it at that than it would be to have a rack of HDDs in the back of my limited space to poke through every time I need something. Once the drive is paid for, the cost of discs isn't that much. After all, miniDV tapes run $2.50 per for 13.6 GB of storage. You're up to $7.50 for tapes rated for HDV. BD seems increasingly reasonable in the face of these costs and it's dropping consistently.

[PowerFullMac]

Snow Leopard will support Blu-ray films... Preparing for the future is always good.

[Lord Zedd]

Snow Leopard will support Blu-ray films

Nope, there is ZERO evidence of that. Everyone thought Leopard would finally support BR, everyone thought 10.5.1 would finally support BR, everyone thought 10.5.2 would finally support BR, everyone thought 10.5.3 would finally support BR and everyone thought 10.5.4 would finally support BR. Guess what? At this rate, its not likely going to happen. Apple dropped the ball big time on that and they aren't eager to bend over and pick it up.

[PowerFullMac]

Nope, there is ZERO evidence of that. Everyone thought Leopard would finally support BR, everyone thought 10.5.1 would finally support BR, everyone thought 10.5.2 would finally support BR, everyone thought 10.5.3 would finally support BR and everyone thought 10.5.4 would finally support BR. Guess what? At this rate, its not likely going to happen. Apple dropped the ball big time on that and they aren't eager to bend over and pick it up.

Seeing as Apple has connections with Blu-ray (people on the board of directors) I am sure they will bring it out sometime, and they cant just refuse to offer it forever, could they? Not when Vista supports it and I can buy a laptop with Blu-ray for £100 less then a entry-level MacBook from PC World.

[kabunaru]

It would be nice to watch Blu-ray films on a Mac.

[krye]

I know movie playback isn't supported, but I couldn't care less about Blu Ray movies at this point. I'm interested in 50G backups. So you're saying that if I were to install a Blu Ray drive today with 10.5.5 I would totally be able to burn a Blu Ray data disk with OSX and/or Toast w/o a problem?

[Tallest Skil]

Seeing as Apple has connections with Blu-ray (people on the board of directors) I am sure they will bring it out sometime, and they cant just refuse to offer it forever, could they?

Apple's been on the Blu-ray board since its inception. Heck, I think that I remember them being on the board back when it was called Blue-ray (they had to drop the "e" because you can't copyright a color, apparently...)

And yes, they can refuse to offer it. They don't care about Blu-ray movies because Apple doesn't like DRM. HDCP is the worst incarnation thereof yet.

[nanofrog]

I know movie playback isn't supported, but I couldn't care less about Blu Ray movies at this point. I'm interested in 50G backups. So you're saying that if I were to install a Blu Ray drive today with 10.5.5 I would totally be able to burn a Blu Ray data disk with OSX and/or Toast w/o a problem?
Yes. :)
Toast has a Blu-ray add-on component for burning BD-R data.

[PowerFullMac]

Apple's been on the Blu-ray board since its inception. Heck, I think that I remember them being on the board back when it was called Blue-ray (they had to drop the "e" because you can't copyright a color, apparently...)

And yes, they can refuse to offer it. They don't care about Blu-ray movies because Apple doesn't like DRM. HDCP is the worst incarnation thereof yet.

They would loose a lot of business for essentially no reason.

Its like Apple not offering speakers or DVD reader drives on any of their computers... It will become a bear minimum standard.

[CaptainChunk]

They would loose a lot of business for essentially no reason.

Well, it's a little more complicated than that...

If Apple were to all of sudden embrace HDCP compliance in say, Snow Leopard, this would force current Mac Pro owners to buy new video cards and possibly new displays (some 3rd-party monitors are already HDCP compliant but ACDs are not). Everyone else (Mac Mini, iMac, Macbooks) would need to buy entirely new machines just to watch a stinking Blu-ray movie. An owner of a 1-year old iMac certainly wouldn't be happy about that. So that could even NEGATIVELY affect future sales.

Steve Jobs' denial about something he can't really change (DRM) has caused Apple to lose their window of opportunity (i.e. minimizing consumer uproar) with this over a year ago. Now, it's too late. Apple isn't HDCP compliant yet with no signs of changing, as everyone else has been for a while now.

Its like Apple not offering speakers or DVD reader drives on any of their computers... It will become a bear minimum standard.

I can care less about the cheap speakers that get packaged with most off the shelf PCs. But I'm a little confused with your DVD reader comment. Just about every Mac shipped within the last few years had DVD read support.