What doesn't MacBook come in 15 inch monitor?

[CrimsonTider]

I know the MacBook Pro does but there is no way I am putting $2000 into a laptop.

I honestly feel the $1099 or higher is too high for the MacBooks as well.

A tech guy I work with just paid $449 for a new Dell that has 2GB Ram and 160 hard drive. It has a 15.4 screen.

I would rather have a Mac product with what I feel like I know but I just don't see paying twice the price.

Can someone enlighten me?

I have always used Windows based products and truthfully don't have problems except with getting viruses and having to have speed burning spyware and anti virus programs running constantly. I have Windows XP and my desktop is 5 years old. I had a Windows ME edition before that which crashed all of the time.

I run a business through ebay and spend lots of time on it but mainly have 3 or 4 mail programs open, along with eBay and sometimes 1 or 2 other tabs working but that is it. For certain things the speed slows down pretty good but I only have 512k memory.

I got the iPhone 3G when they came out and have been considering getting an iMac and a Mac laptop. Any help or comments would be appreciated.

[TEG]

I know the MacBook Pro does but there is no way I am putting $2000 into a laptop.

I honestly feel the $1099 or higher is too high for the MacBooks as well.

A tech guy I work with just paid $449 for a new Dell that has 2GB Ram and 160 hard drive. It has a 15.4 screen.

That Dell does not use the current technology, that is why it is so cheap. If you want a 15" Mac for that price, get an older revision.

TEG

[hogfaninga]

Because Jobs said he doesn't want it in the Macbook. The 13 inch is perfect for me and for portability. If you want a cheap laptop stick with PC's. You get what you pay for in life.

[TEG]

Because Jobs said he doesn't want it in the Macbook. The 13 inch is perfect for me and for portability. If you want a cheap laptop stick with PC's. You get what you pay for in life.

True. $500 PC Laptop, useless in 2 years. $1000 Mac laptop, useful beyond 4 years. I have what was a $2800 Mac laptop, and it is still kicking and quite useful after 7 years and another one that is 6 years.

TEG

[skubish]

I know the MacBook Pro does but there is no way I am putting $2000 into a laptop.

I honestly feel the $1099 or higher is too high for the MacBooks as well.

A tech guy I work with just paid $449 for a new Dell that has 2GB Ram and 160 hard drive. It has a 15.4 screen.

I would rather have a Mac product with what I feel like I know but I just don't see paying twice the price.

Can someone enlighten me?


If you can't see the difference, then just buy a Dell. You will be quite happy and you don't need to know what is on the other side of the fence. Also without know the specs on the Dell, we really can't compare them.

[iMacmatician]

What's the resolution of the Dell's 15.4"? It's probably 1280·800, the same as the 13.3" MacBook.

[christiemp]

Why would you want a bigger monitor? Macbook is much more portable. No wayyy @ 15.4 in!!!!

[fedup flyer]

Most of those cheap laptop that I have seen are more akin to a doorstop than a portable computer. Ever seen a Compaq from the 80's, it was a luggable, about the size of a carry-on bag.

[kalex]

Don't buy new. get a refurb macbook or used and save alot of money that way.

those budget laptops are not that great. usually u get crappy resolution and substandard components and once you start loading them with options they don't become that much cheaper than macbook

[mosx]

I haven't had the opportunity to post here in awhile. Unfortunately the other thread was closed for no reason. So I'll make my return here ;)

That Dell does not use the current technology, that is why it is so cheap. If you want a 15" Mac for that price, get an older revision.

How do you know this? Actually, if you go to the Dell site, you'll see that the Inspiron 1525 (likely the model the OP is referring to) uses the same Santa Rosa chipset and Penryn based processors the MacBook does.

So they're both using out-dated chipsets and Penryn processors.

You can actually get a 13.3" Inspiron with the same specs as the $1299 MacBook for less than the entry MacBook ;)

DVD writer is standard.

True. $500 PC Laptop, useless in 2 years. $1000 Mac laptop, useful beyond 4 years.

Not true.

The cheapest Apple notebook ships with the X3100, which already performs worse than the generation before it making it outdated already, and it does not even ship with a DVD writer or an optical drive that could be upgraded by the user.

Not to mention the MacBooks (and Pros) lack standard connectivity options, like HDMI and eSATA.

Apple and OS X developers also have a knack for throwing CPU cycles at applications rather than optimizing them for speed, so those "fast" Core 2 Duos are not running at peak efficiency the way they would under Windows.

I mean, really, any notebook that ships with integrated Intel graphics is outdated by default. The current X4500 runs at 1/3 the speed of previous generation dedicated graphics when paired with the same CPU, and Apple's Intel GPU drivers have always been downright terrible, except for the GMA 950 (thanks to the way the GMA 950 works in hardware).

those budget laptops are not that great. usually u get crappy resolution and substandard components and once you start loading them with options they don't become that much cheaper than macbook

Apple's components are "quality"? The MacBook cracks on the palmrest thanks to the magentic latch, it cracks on the bottom due to heat thanks to the cooling system, it cracks on the back around the vents thanks to the heat, it discolors due to heat, the optical drives die left and right and you can't replace them!

An $800 HP will be built better than a MacBook and have graphics that outperform it by a large margin, along with the ability to play blu-ray movies (with an upgrade) and even modern games!

[Tallest Skil]

...[lacks] an optical drive that could be upgraded by the user.

Not to mention the MacBooks (and Pros) lack standard connectivity options, like HDMI and eSATA.

An unintelligent end-user. Anyone can get in there and replace anything.

Since when have HDMI and eSATA been standard?

[mosx]

An unintelligent end-user. Anyone can get in there and replace anything.

Since when have HDMI and eSATA been standard?

Unintelligent? Please. More like stupid design on Apple's part. Why should I have to perform surgery and pull the entire system apart to replace the optical drive? On PC notebooks you just power down, remove the battery, loosen a single screw and pull the drive out.

HDMI has been standard on PC notebooks for a couple of years now. It was part of the Santa Rosa spec even on the PC side.

eSATA has been standard for about all of this year. eSATA is in more PCs outside of the Mac world than Firewire outside of the Mac world.

[JoeDRC]

Unintelligent? Please. More like stupid design on Apple's part. Why should I have to perform surgery and pull the entire system apart to replace the optical drive? On PC notebooks you just power down, remove the battery, loosen a single screw and pull the drive out.



On any brand of PC notebook? I doubt it.
If someone wants to fiddle with the innards of their notebook, i'm pretty sure they're certain its not going to be as simple as you describe on any decent notebook

[mosx]

On any brand of PC notebook? I doubt it.
If someone wants to fiddle with the innards of their notebook, i'm pretty sure they're certain its not going to be as simple as you describe on any decent notebook

Yes on any brand.

You just showed your complete lack of experience with non-Apple systems ;)

Most well built PCs conform to certain standards.

Replacing the optical drive consists of loosening a single screw on the bottom and simply pulling the drive out. Compared the complete system surgery required by a Mac.

Replacing the HDD on a PC generally requires removing two screws and lifting up a cover, giving you full access to the drive. You pull the tab lifting the drive out. Unlike Macs, the casing is held on by standard screws and not some obscure Torx size that can only be found in expensive tool kits.

Upgrading the RAM is the same as the HDD. You generally use your fingernail to lift the metal tabs to the sides and the RAM pops out. Re-inserting the RAM is usually a simple process of sliding in and pushing down.

To remove the battery for all of these procedures you just need to slide a lock on the bottom to the side. No need for getting a coin out and using it. You just drop the battery back in and it locks back in place.

[donga]

to OP: you get what you pay for. compare specs on that $500 dell and the low end macbook, then decide what you want to do. i personally think it's worth the premium for the general lack of viruses and spyware, ease of use, etc. plus you can spread that cost over years if/when it does last longer than many cheap PCs out there

[polaris20]

I know the MacBook Pro does but there is no way I am putting $2000 into a laptop.

I honestly feel the $1099 or higher is too high for the MacBooks as well.

A tech guy I work with just paid $449 for a new Dell that has 2GB Ram and 160 hard drive. It has a 15.4 screen.

I would rather have a Mac product with what I feel like I know but I just don't see paying twice the price.

Can someone enlighten me?

I have always used Windows based products and truthfully don't have problems except with getting viruses and having to have speed burning spyware and anti virus programs running constantly. I have Windows XP and my desktop is 5 years old. I had a Windows ME edition before that which crashed all of the time.

I run a business through ebay and spend lots of time on it but mainly have 3 or 4 mail programs open, along with eBay and sometimes 1 or 2 other tabs working but that is it. For certain things the speed slows down pretty good but I only have 512k memory.

I got the iPhone 3G when they came out and have been considering getting an iMac and a Mac laptop. Any help or comments would be appreciated.

Honestly when people start saying "I can get Brand X computer for $300 less than an Apple the Macs are overpriced" they should just stop considering Apple right then and there.

Maybe I'm jaded because I'm a Windows/Linux admin by trade and am just now getting a Mac, but really the main benefits are the OS and resulting speed and stability.

I've been running an old beat up 400mhz TiBook with Tiger, and for its age it's just an amazing machine. I'm tired of running Windows personally, just too many things can and do go wrong.

[nick9191]

I can get a Dell the same specs as a Macbook Pro for hundreds less. Do I care? Hell no. Any Mac is worth 10 times what Apple charge for them.

No additional software needed (you can't do anything with Windows out of the box). An equivalent suite of software to do what iLife does costs hundreds.

A far more productive OS that can potentially save you thousands over a course of several years (simplicity, logic, and ease of use).

Real Multi tasking.

I don't mean to sound like a fanboy, I'm not, I just think Windows is a joke, and I laugh at people who compare Macs to PC's.

[CrimsonTider]

I haven't had the opportunity to post here in awhile. Unfortunately the other thread was closed for no reason. So I'll make my return here ;)



How do you know this? Actually, if you go to the Dell site, you'll see that the Inspiron 1525 (likely the model the OP is referring to) uses the same Santa Rosa chipset and Penryn based processors the MacBook does.

So they're both using out-dated chipsets and Penryn processors.

You can actually get a 13.3" Inspiron with the same specs as the $1299 MacBook for less than the entry MacBook ;)

DVD writer is standard.



Not true.

The cheapest Apple notebook ships with the X3100, which already performs worse than the generation before it making it outdated already, and it does not even ship with a DVD writer or an optical drive that could be upgraded by the user.

Not to mention the MacBooks (and Pros) lack standard connectivity options, like HDMI and eSATA.

Apple and OS X developers also have a knack for throwing CPU cycles at applications rather than optimizing them for speed, so those "fast" Core 2 Duos are not running at peak efficiency the way they would under Windows.

I mean, really, any notebook that ships with integrated Intel graphics is outdated by default. The current X4500 runs at 1/3 the speed of previous generation dedicated graphics when paired with the same CPU, and Apple's Intel GPU drivers have always been downright terrible, except for the GMA 950 (thanks to the way the GMA 950 works in hardware).



Apple's components are "quality"? The MacBook cracks on the palmrest thanks to the magentic latch, it cracks on the bottom due to heat thanks to the cooling system, it cracks on the back around the vents thanks to the heat, it discolors due to heat, the optical drives die left and right and you can't replace them!

An $800 HP will be built better than a MacBook and have graphics that outperform it by a large margin, along with the ability to play blu-ray movies (with an upgrade) and even modern games!


Now that is the type of information I was looking for. Very good info.

I don't see how it would make such a huge difference in "portability" between having a 13.3 or 15.4 in a bag to carry with me. But I do see a big difference when looking at a 13.3 and 15.4 screen. If I was concerned with portability, I would just use my iPhone for everything or get a 8.9 inch portable which is the size of a book.

[hogfaninga]

Now that is the type of information I was looking for. Very good info.

I don't see how it would make such a huge difference in "portability" between having a 13.3 or 15.4 in a bag to carry with me. But I do see a big difference when looking at a 13.3 and 15.4 screen. If I was concerned with portability, I would just use my iPhone for everything or get a 8.9 inch portable which is the size of a book.

It was easy to see where you were headed with your original post. Get the PC.

BTW I have had a 15'4 and a 13'3 and personally I can tell a substantial difference. But if portability isn't a big deal to you then go for the big 17 incher. In the PC of course.

[11800506]

Now that is the type of information I was looking for. Very good info.

I don't see how it would make such a huge difference in "portability" between having a 13.3 or 15.4 in a bag to carry with me. But I do see a big difference when looking at a 13.3 and 15.4 screen. If I was concerned with portability, I would just use my iPhone for everything or get a 8.9 inch portable which is the size of a book.

As others have said, that 15.4" screen most likely has the same resolution as the Macbook so you really don't gain very much of an advantage. Also, I don't think it's really correct compare a Macbook to an Inspiron. To get a more proper comparison it would be better to compare a Macbook to an XPS m1330 in which case the Macbook is often slightly cheaper or around the same price. The Macbook is considered a premium computer and as such it should be compared to premium computers. I don't want to start a flame war so I'll leave it at that, but if want a $500 Dell, by all means buy one.

And it's pretty clear that mosx is a troll...

[wesg]

Ah, the old versus thread. The MacBook doesn't come in a 15" monitor because Apple didn't want them to because the MacBook Pro has a 15" monitor. The MacBook is geared more towards the mobile users who are willing to have less screen but still retain power.

Now, if the MacBook would come with a dedicated graphics card, we'd be all set.

[CrimsonTider]

I am a big believer in that. The only problem is that I don't see the big difference in quality for the $449 and the entry $1099 that I mentioned.

Why doesn't Apple offer a longer warranty if they last so much longer? Like I said, I have had my desktop HP Windows XP for 5 years. It still works and doesn't really slow down until I get more than 2 heavy sites open at once and it is still a minimal drop off in speed. So all of this about them lasting for 2 years is bogus.

Someone mentioned the additional programs I need to buy for a Windows machine. The only other software I really "need" would be Word since it is the dominant player in the computer world and makes sending things easier on my end. I can get the student edition with Word, Excel and Power Point for $79 so I am still paying half of what I would for the MacBook.

[Skeletal-dæmon]

Not to mention the MacBooks (and Pros) lack standard connectivity options, like HDMI and eSATA.

So whats that eSATA-looky-like thingy on the MacBook pro? Okay so Apple calls it an 'Expansion Port' but the guy in the Apple Store says its an eSata port.

[wesg]

So whats that eSATA-looky-like thingy on the MacBook pro? Okay so Apple calls it an 'Expansion Port' but the guy in the Apple Store says its an eSata port.

It's not an eSATA port.

[Tallest Skil]

So whats that eSATA-looky-like thingy on the MacBook pro? Okay so Apple calls it an 'Expansion Port' but the guy in the Apple Store says its an eSata port.

The guy needs to be fired or penalized. It's called ExpressCard/34, and it's for telecommunication broadband cards, eSATA cards, FireWire cards, or whatever else.

[benlangdon]

So whats that eSATA-looky-like thingy on the MacBook pro? Okay so Apple calls it an 'Expansion Port' but the guy in the Apple Store says its an eSata port.
its an express card slot

which you can buy an esata card that goes into and has two esata ports that you can use.
which i have, and its beautiful.

[aristobrat]

Unintelligent? Please. More like stupid design on Apple's part. Why should I have to perform surgery and pull the entire system apart to replace the optical drive? On PC notebooks you just power down, remove the battery, loosen a single screw and pull the drive out.
By "stupid design", you appear to be talking about slot-loading drives vs. tray-loading drives.

Oddly enough, PC notebooks just now seem to be moving towards this "stupid design" that Apple notebooks have had for the last umpteen years.

My roommates' $2000 new Dell Studio XPS whatever has a slot-loading drive, and guess what? You have to perform surgery and pull the entire system apart to replace the optical drive.

HDMI has been standard on PC notebooks for a couple of years now. It was part of the Santa Rosa spec even on the PC side.
Standard? If you walk into a Best Buy or Circuit City and look at the rows of PC notebooks there, it's still the exception to find one with HDMI. :rolleyes:

[Eidorian]

Yes on any brand.

You just showed your complete lack of experience with non-Apple systems ;)

Most well built PCs conform to certain standards.

Replacing the optical drive consists of loosening a single screw on the bottom and simply pulling the drive out. Compared the complete system surgery required by a Mac.

Replacing the HDD on a PC generally requires removing two screws and lifting up a cover, giving you full access to the drive. You pull the tab lifting the drive out. Unlike Macs, the casing is held on by standard screws and not some obscure Torx size that can only be found in expensive tool kits.

Upgrading the RAM is the same as the HDD. You generally use your fingernail to lift the metal tabs to the sides and the RAM pops out. Re-inserting the RAM is usually a simple process of sliding in and pushing down.

To remove the battery for all of these procedures you just need to slide a lock on the bottom to the side. No need for getting a coin out and using it. You just drop the battery back in and it locks back in place.Sounds like every Dell I've had to fix. I can't even touch the Apple laptops.

It's depressing when nearly every PC laptop comes with HDMI or an ExpressCard slot.

[11800506]

I am a big believer in that. The only problem is that I don't see the big difference in quality for the $449 and the entry $1099 that I mentioned.

Why doesn't Apple offer a longer warranty if they last so much longer? Like I said, I have had my desktop HP Windows XP for 5 years. It still works and doesn't really slow down until I get more than 2 heavy sites open at once and it is still a minimal drop off in speed. So all of this about them lasting for 2 years is bogus.

Someone mentioned the additional programs I need to buy for a Windows machine. The only other software I really "need" would be Word since it is the dominant player in the computer world and makes sending things easier on my end. I can get the student edition with Word, Excel and Power Point for $79 so I am still paying half of what I would for the MacBook.

The difference between them is the fact that the Dell machine comes with an out of date Celeron processor, a screen with the same resolution as the Macbook but bigger in size, only 1 GB or Ram, only Wireless G, no Bluetooth, and Vista Home Basic which is quite spartan, a smaller battery, plus the lack of in store support, etc, lack of software such as iLife and depending on the machine, worse quality often times.

You have to decide for yourself if you feel those upgrades are justified by the higher price. Also, you can get Office for $125 and if you are interested in a getting a Mac, you should probably heavily consider refurrbs which are just like new, but products that have been returned. Apple then conducts an inspection to make sure everything is working and then the savings are passed on to you. They're very good deals as well. As I said, only you can decide if the upgrades are worth it.

[OllyW]

Any Mac is worth 10 times what Apple charge for them.

So you wouldn't mind paying over $10,000 for a MacBook? :rolleyes:

[rpaloalto]

Well it looks like all the facts, are pointing you. In the direction of the dell.
So go on and buy it.
Your beginning to smell like a troll

[Eidorian]

Well it looks like all the facts, are pointing you. In the direction of the dell.
So go on and buy it.Wait buying non-Apple logo hardware is a bad thing? :D

[Skeletal-dæmon]

It's not an eSATA port.

Is it not? Hmm. Wouldn't be the first time an Apple employee was wrong I suppose.

[airjuggernaut]

Oh mosx, just when I thought you had finally gotten hit by a car and left us Apple Fanboys to dwell in our pretentiousness, you have come back to turn this simple 1 page thread into a soon 15 page monster "Mac Vs PC" thread.

Oh how I loathe you.

By "stupid design", you appear to be talking about slot-loading drives vs. tray-loading drives.

Oddly enough, PC notebooks just now seem to be moving towards this "stupid design" that Apple notebooks have had for the last umpteen years.

My roommates' $2000 new Dell Studio XPS whatever has a slot-loading drive, and guess what? You have to perform surgery and pull the entire system apart to replace the optical drive.


Standard? If you walk into a Best Buy or Circuit City and look at the rows of PC notebooks there, it's still the exception to find one with HDMI. :rolleyes:

Both things are extremely true. Right on the dot, correctemundo.

Except the HDMI thing is partially right, it's true that it's not as standard as MOSX think but at the same time they're not extremely hard to find.

Anyways, moving on...

PC manufacturers use Slot-Loading drives too, not as much as apple, but most of their "Stylish" and "Chic" looking laptops do like the Dell Studio Laptops and the XPS lines.

Can you remind me what Apple also HAPPENS to strive for in the looks department? :eek:

And since you like "proof" so much MOSX

Here are all the "chic" Dells that use Slot-Loading Drives:
http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop_studio_15?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn

http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop_studio_17?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn

http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1330?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn

http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1530?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn

LOOK EVEN INSPIRONS!
http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop-inspiron-13?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn

OH AND LOOK AT THE SERVICE MANUALS FOR ONE OF THE SLOT-LOADING LAPTOPS! http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/xpsM1330/en/sm/optical.htm#wp999869
Ha look not just one screw and a pull out. More like 2 hours of tearing the bitch apart and then replacing it.

Oh, just watch how fast he turns this into the "DELL DOESN'T ACCURATELY REPRESENT ALL PC MANUFACTURERS" just like how he kinda did with that Vista survey on that forums which only had 800 people vote, rather than the 203492384093289 (mosx excellent estimation skills) MILLION that use Vista.
Go read up about what a survey does, buddy, because I think your thinking census and I'm thinking Arby's. :)

And yes the MBP lacks connections like HDMI, eSata,ect. But we all know Apple's been milking the design for years now, and a complete overhaul of the MBP is imminent, along with the MB, so lets see what comes out of the redesign :cool:

[Eidorian]

Oh mosx, just when I thought you had finally gotten hit by a car and left us Apple Fanboys to dwell in our pretentiousness, you have come back to turn this simple 1 page thread into a soon 15 page monster "Mac Vs PC" thread.

Oh how I loathe you.



Both things are extremely true. Right on the dot, correctemundo.

Except the HDMI thing is partially right, it's true that it's not as standard as MOSX think but at the same time they're not extremely hard to find.

Anyways, moving on...

PC manufacturers use Slot-Loading drives too, not as much as apple, but most of their "Stylish" and "Chic" looking laptops do like the Dell Studio Laptops and the XPS lines.

Can you remind me what Apple also HAPPENS to strive for in the looks department? :eek:

And since you like "proof" so much MOSX

Here are all the "chic" Dells that use Slot-Loading Drives:
http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop_studio_15?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn

http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop_studio_17?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn

http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1330?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn

http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1530?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn

LOOK EVEN INSPIRONS!
http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop-inspiron-13?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn

OH AND LOOK AT THE SERVICE MANUALS FOR ONE OF THE SLOT-LOADING LAPTOPS! http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/xpsM1330/en/sm/optical.htm#wp999869
Ha look not just one screw and a pull out. More like 2 hours of tearing the bitch apart and then replacing it.

Oh, just watch how fast he turns this into the "DELL DOESN'T ACCURATELY REPRESENT ALL PC MANUFACTURERS" just like how he kinda did with that Vista survey on that forums which only had 800 people vote, rather than the 203492384093289 (mosx excellent estimation skills) MILLION that use Vista.
Go read up about what a survey does, buddy, because I think your thinking census and I'm thinking Arby's. :)

And yes the MBP lacks connections like HDMI, eSata,ect. But we all know Apple's been milking the design for years now, and a complete overhaul of the MBP is imminent, along with the MB, so lets see what comes out of the redesign :cool:I hope you haven't forgotten the Pismo.

[alphaod]

So whats that eSATA-looky-like thingy on the MacBook pro? Okay so Apple calls it an 'Expansion Port' but the guy in the Apple Store says its an eSata port.

Well the guy in the Apple Store should start looking for a new job.

[hogfaninga]

I am a big believer in that. The only problem is that I don't see the big difference in quality for the $449 and the entry $1099 that I mentioned.

Why doesn't Apple offer a longer warranty if they last so much longer? Like I said, I have had my desktop HP Windows XP for 5 years. It still works and doesn't really slow down until I get more than 2 heavy sites open at once and it is still a minimal drop off in speed. So all of this about them lasting for 2 years is bogus.

Someone mentioned the additional programs I need to buy for a Windows machine. The only other software I really "need" would be Word since it is the dominant player in the computer world and makes sending things easier on my end. I can get the student edition with Word, Excel and Power Point for $79 so I am still paying half of what I would for the MacBook.

Then go buy a Dell. Why keep telling us how great the price is and how much the Macbook is a ripoff? Thanks for the info.. Now go to Best Buy and get that Dell. You don't have to convince us why the Dell is such a great bargain. I'm sure most don't care.

[polaris20]

I haven't had the opportunity to post here in awhile. Unfortunately the other thread was closed for no reason. So I'll make my return here ;)



How do you know this? Actually, if you go to the Dell site, you'll see that the Inspiron 1525 (likely the model the OP is referring to) uses the same Santa Rosa chipset and Penryn based processors the MacBook does.

So they're both using out-dated chipsets and Penryn processors.

You can actually get a 13.3" Inspiron with the same specs as the $1299 MacBook for less than the entry MacBook ;)

DVD writer is standard.



Not true.

The cheapest Apple notebook ships with the X3100, which already performs worse than the generation before it making it outdated already, and it does not even ship with a DVD writer or an optical drive that could be upgraded by the user.

Not to mention the MacBooks (and Pros) lack standard connectivity options, like HDMI and eSATA.

Apple and OS X developers also have a knack for throwing CPU cycles at applications rather than optimizing them for speed, so those "fast" Core 2 Duos are not running at peak efficiency the way they would under Windows.

I mean, really, any notebook that ships with integrated Intel graphics is outdated by default. The current X4500 runs at 1/3 the speed of previous generation dedicated graphics when paired with the same CPU, and Apple's Intel GPU drivers have always been downright terrible, except for the GMA 950 (thanks to the way the GMA 950 works in hardware).



Apple's components are "quality"? The MacBook cracks on the palmrest thanks to the magentic latch, it cracks on the bottom due to heat thanks to the cooling system, it cracks on the back around the vents thanks to the heat, it discolors due to heat, the optical drives die left and right and you can't replace them!

An $800 HP will be built better than a MacBook and have graphics that outperform it by a large margin, along with the ability to play blu-ray movies (with an upgrade) and even modern games!

While I think Lenovo Thinkpads are great pieces of gear, pretty much every other PC manufacturer is quite lacking in build quality and reliability. Over the past 5 years I've worked on/with Gateway, HP, Dell, and IBM/Thinkpad. These are business class btw, not the cheap crap you buy at Best Buy.

None of them come close to the build quality of Apples, except the Thinkpads.

As far as the C2D's not running as efficiently under OSX as they do in Windows; have you read any benchmarks? Better yet, have you performed any? I have. OSX is faster than Vista. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. Even on the same exact machine. It's also generally faster (again, on the same hardware) than XP is.

I haven't been here very long, but have many years logged in the PC world. It's clear to see why the other posters here seem to generally dislike you. You're not remotely constructive or helpful, and are at best a poor troll. Why is that? PPC hold out fan boy? Or Windows fanboy?

[Beric]

-snip-

Yay, mosx is back! :)

BTW, I'm currently considering this laptop, for all of you Macbook lovers. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8892825&type=product&id=1211587727985 For $1450, it has a 17" screen, and its graphics card leaves the 17" MBP in the dust. 1920 x 1200 resolution, 4GB ram standard, 7200 RPM HDD, ect. It's a Gateway, and yet it has positive reviews everywhere.

Macs are underspecced, period. I can get all those specs for the price of a top-of-the-line Macbook. Who cares about how thin and light the Macbook is? You can't use it on your lap, or you'll lose your fertility and get second-degree burns. So weight doesn't really matter. Right now, I'm looking at an undervolting program called coolbook (http://www.coolbook.se/CoolBook.html) which will do what Apple's engineers couldn't - make my Macbook cooler by reducing voltage (and therefore power consumption) to its actual stable minimum. It's amazing that an independent developer could do something better than Apple - or maybe not.

[hogfaninga]

Yay, mosx is back! :)

BTW, I'm currently considering this laptop, for all of you Macbook lovers. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8892825&type=product&id=1211587727985 For $1450, it has a 17" screen, and its graphics card leaves the 17" MBP in the dust. 1920 x 1200 resolution, 4GB ram standard, 7200 RPM HDD, ect. It's a Gateway, and yet it has positive reviews everywhere.

Macs are underspecced, period. I can get all those specs for the price of a top-of-the-line Macbook. Who cares about how thin and light the Macbook is? You can't use it on your lap, or you'll lose your fertility and get second-degree burns. So weight doesn't really matter. Right now, I'm looking at an undervolting program called coolbook (http://www.coolbook.se/CoolBook.html) which will do what Apple's engineers couldn't - make my Macbook cooler by reducing voltage (and therefore power consumption) to its actual stable minimum. It's amazing that an independent developer could do something better than Apple - or maybe not.

Well aren't you special. Maybe you can join a Gateway board now.

[airjuggernaut]

I hope you haven't forgotten the Pismo.
Huh?:confused:

[aristobrat]

Who cares about how thin and light the MacBook is?
Just people that have to haul it from work to home or school.

[Adamo]

And how stream-lined it is in comparison to any Dell I've used. Don't get me wrong, Dell machines are alright, but they're chunky in comparison.

I appreciate my MacBook so much more, simply because it's on a specifically put together system so it'll work. Time Machine is a godsend, even though I've never had to make use of it - my use of Windows has made me thankful for having a constant back-up available.

No viruses, iWork (well, pages) is just what I need, iLife is great to have available to me, FCE I will make more use of, and all the programs I normally used on XP are available, Skype, MSN, torrents, iTunes, Last.fm, plus many more. I've no reason to go back, it's taken me a while, but I have no need for another machine anymore - I have a games console, I'm sorted. The OS is enjoyable to use, it's not fiddly, it's just right.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Go read up about what a survey does, buddy, because I think your thinking census and I'm thinking Arby's. :)\:

You have made my day.

[polaris20]

Yay, mosx is back! :)

BTW, I'm currently considering this laptop, for all of you Macbook lovers. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8892825&type=product&id=1211587727985 For $1450, it has a 17" screen, and its graphics card leaves the 17" MBP in the dust. 1920 x 1200 resolution, 4GB ram standard, 7200 RPM HDD, ect. It's a Gateway, and yet it has positive reviews everywhere.

Macs are underspecced, period. I can get all those specs for the price of a top-of-the-line Macbook. Who cares about how thin and light the Macbook is? You can't use it on your lap, or you'll lose your fertility and get second-degree burns. So weight doesn't really matter. Right now, I'm looking at an undervolting program called coolbook (http://www.coolbook.se/CoolBook.html) which will do what Apple's engineers couldn't - make my Macbook cooler by reducing voltage (and therefore power consumption) to its actual stable minimum. It's amazing that an independent developer could do something better than Apple - or maybe not.

You'll need specs that high just to run Vista. :D

[benlangdon]

Just people that have to haul it from work to home or school.

ya i can vouch for that one.
my backpack with my calc, english, architecture and notebook (wich is a good 3in filled with papers) weighs im guessing 20lb's. with my mbp its like another 5lbs.

im pretty sure its more than 25 because people try and pick it up and they can't and have to get a good hold and good position,
man i hate these books (they are huge).

[mosx]

No additional software needed (you can't do anything with Windows out of the box). An equivalent suite of software to do what iLife does costs hundreds.

Not true.

iTunes and iPhoto are the only useful apps in the iLife suite. iTunes on Windows is definitely lacking and slow thanks to Apple's shoddy Windows software porting division. Vista has built-in photo organizing software that is every bit as good as iPhoto. You can also get freeware alternatives like Picassa, which many regard as better than iPhoto. You can also get HP's free "Photosmart Essentials" which does everything iPhoto does, including the "photo books" and all of that. But with the added benefit of being able to print out those photo books on YOUR OWN paper and in your own styles! You buy the book and insert the pages.

iMovie '08 is not very good at all. iDVD is okay, but generally people don't care about fancy menus and such. In fact, I have yet to talk to someone in a real world situation (even in an Apple store) that likes DVD menus.

Garageband is essentially useless. If you're recording instruments you want higher quality and more capable software anyway.

A far more productive OS that can potentially save you thousands over a course of several years (simplicity, logic, and ease of use).

Neither Vista nor Leopard is easier to use than the other. They're both equal in terms of "ease of use". Leopard is not "more simple". On the surface, Leopard seems to have some advantages. Such as easier software installs. But uninstalling software in Leopard generally leaves behind a mess of .plist files in various folders that you have to hunt down and destroy, even if you do use AppDelete or AppZappper.

I also find Windows to be far more "logical" than OS X in some instances. Alt-Tab for instance. In Windows it takes you directly to the window you want. In OS X it just takes you to the application, then you have to use another keyboard combination/shortcut to get to the desired window.

I don't mean to sound like a fanboy, I'm not, I just think Windows is a joke, and I laugh at people who compare Macs to PC's.

And I laugh at people who think Windows is a joke. OS X is far behind Windows in many aspects. Let me know when OS X has system wide hardware acceleration for video please. Something Windows has had in various forms since the 1990s.

Heh, Windows had that before Mac OS had pre-emptive multi-tasking. Kind of funny ;)

Now that is the type of information I was looking for. Very good info.

I don't see how it would make such a huge difference in "portability" between having a 13.3 or 15.4 in a bag to carry with me. But I do see a big difference when looking at a 13.3 and 15.4 screen. If I was concerned with portability, I would just use my iPhone for everything or get a 8.9 inch portable which is the size of a book.

The MacBook isn't as much smaller as a PC as the Apple faithful would like you to believe. I have a "fat" 15.4" HP and the MacBook. The MacBook weighs 5lbs and is only a cm or so smaller in each direction than the HP. The HP weighs 6lbs (with the higher capacity, but not bigger, battery and dedicated graphics). When I have it in a bag (most bags are designed for 15.4" anyway) I can't tell the difference between the two.

When I'm using it on my lap, the HP has a HUGE advantage in terms of heat. All Macs lack efficient cooling. As a result, the bottom of the case can COOK. Its amazing how hot it gets even with reduced performance settings and not doing anything other than chatting and browsing. The HP stays cool though, thanks to the fan on the bottom pulling air up and pushing it out the back, compared to the MacBook's exhaust only fan with no circulation and no vents in the casing except around the fan.

To get a more proper comparison it would be better to compare a Macbook to an XPS m1330 in which case the Macbook is often slightly cheaper or around the same price

Sigh. Its always ridiculous when people try to bring up this argument. Its completely inaccurate. The XPS is a system you buy because you care about vanity and because you want a portable.

The MacBook is generally the most popular MacBook and the one people buy because its the ONLY Apple notebook they can afford. As I've said many times before, nearly all people do not walk into an Apple store and see the MacBook and think "hmm its cheaper AND smaller" they look at the 15.4" and say "wow I can't afford this. But I can afford the smaller one".

Its perfectly reasonable to compare a standard notebook PC to a MacBook because, again, people are not buying it for its size. They are buying it because it is all they can afford.

And for $50 more than the middle MacBook, you get dedicated graphics with the XPS anyway. So its still well ahead of the MacBook.

The Macbook is considered a premium computer and as such it should be compared to premium computers.

Oh please. Whats premium about the MacBook? It's lacking standard connectivity (HDMI, eSATA, VGA/S-Video without adapters, full size ExpressCard, memory card readers), the casing is prone to cracking from regular use and heat, its prone to discoloring due to regular use and heat, and it uses integrated graphics. No "premium" computer would EVER have integrated graphics. Even the old last generation iBook still has better graphics than the current MacBook!

And it's pretty clear that mosx is a troll...

Don't resort to school yard insults just because you don't like hearing the truth.

By "stupid design", you appear to be talking about slot-loading drives vs. tray-loading drives.

Oddly enough, PC notebooks just now seem to be moving towards this "stupid design" that Apple notebooks have had for the last umpteen years.

My roommates' $2000 new Dell Studio XPS whatever has a slot-loading drive, and guess what? You have to perform surgery and pull the entire system apart to replace the optical drive.

Dell and their "premium" designs are the only ones that use slot loaders.

Every one else, including Dell's "regular" notebooks, HP, Gateway, custom makers, Asus, etc. all use standard tray loaders that can be replaced by the end user.

Standard? If you walk into a Best Buy or Circuit City and look at the rows of PC notebooks there, it's still the exception to find one with HDMI

Not true. Any PC in Best Buy, CC, Fry's, etc. with dedicated graphics will have HDMI outputs. You can even pick up a $750 HP with integrated graphics (ATI 3200) with an HDMI output and blu-ray. Again, HDMI was part of the Santa Rosa spec. It was up to the manufacturers to opt out of including it.

The difference between them is the fact that the Dell machine comes with an out of date Celeron processor, a screen with the same resolution as the Macbook but bigger in size, only 1 GB or Ram, only Wireless G, no Bluetooth, and Vista Home Basic which is quite spartan, a smaller battery, plus the lack of in store support, etc, lack of software such as iLife and depending on the machine, worse quality often times.

Two things. First, at least Dell gives you the option of buying a system at that price. What if that is all someone needs or all they can afford? At least PC manufacturers give you the choice of being able to pick and choose what hardware you want for what price. With Apple you either have to buy an expensive system that is not worth it (entry MacBook) or go up to a level ($1299) where you can get what could be considered a gaming PC.

At least Dell, HP, Gateway, and many others offer systems at all price ranges. Theres no reason for someone to spend $1100 on a computer if they only want to do a small amount of things. With integrated graphics, 1GB of RAM, and no DVD writer, that entry level MacBook is no better than that $450 Dell anyway. Except the Dell WOULD have a DVD writer!

Second thing, why bring up iLife? Again, iLife is essentially useless. iTunes is good in OS X, but not in Windows (Apple's fault). iPhoto is good, but there are better and free alternatives out there for Windows. Most people will never use iMovie, iDVD, or Garageband outside of opening it up and seeing what it looks like. I personally rather have the option of paying $100 less and not having iDVD, iMovie, and Garageband installed. Or let me spend $200 less and have NO iLIfe apps. Let me download iTunes for free and spend $25 to get iPhoto.

Most people still don't live around an Apple store either. I live in southern California and the closest Apple store is a good 70 mile round trip.

With PCs, however, you do get 24/7 support. It doesn't close on the weekends.

Except the HDMI thing is partially right, it's true that it's not as standard as MOSX think but at the same time they're not extremely hard to find.

You'd be hard pressed to find a system with dedicated graphics that does NOT have HDMI output and is a current generation model.

PC manufacturers use Slot-Loading drives too, not as much as apple, but most of their "Stylish" and "Chic" looking laptops do like the Dell Studio Laptops and the XPS lines.

Can you remind me what Apple also HAPPENS to strive for in the looks department?

And since you like "proof" so much MOSX

I already said that Dell and their "premium" lines are using slot loaders. No other respectable manufacturer does.

Oh, just watch how fast he turns this into the "DELL DOESN'T ACCURATELY REPRESENT ALL PC MANUFACTURERS" just like how he kinda did with that Vista survey on that forums which only had 800 people vote, rather than the 203492384093289 (mosx excellent estimation skills) MILLION that use Vista.
Go read up about what a survey does, buddy, because I think your thinking census and I'm thinking Arby's

Of all of Dell's sales, how many XPS and Studio systems are sold?

Exactly. I bet Dell sells less XPS and Studio systems than Apple sells Macs

Oh and 800 people voting on a survey does not represent the tens of millions of Vista users ;)

None of them come close to the build quality of Apples, except the Thinkpads.

Heh, you think Apple's build quality is good? THen tell me, why does the MacBook Pro have yellowing screen issues still? Why does it still have sound issues (electronic sounds coming out of the headphone/speaker jack)? Why does it warp from heat? Why does it bend and scratch? Why does the case start to separate due to heat? Why does the MacBook still have cracking issues on the palmrest? Why does the MacBook crack on the bottom due to heat? Why does it crack around the vent due to heat? Why does it turn yellow on the bottom due to heat? Why does it turn yellow around the vents due to heat?

As far as the C2D's not running as efficiently under OSX as they do in Windows; have you read any benchmarks? Better yet, have you performed any? I have. OSX is faster than Vista. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. Even on the same exact machine. It's also generally faster (again, on the same hardware) than XP is.

Have you watched your CPU use at all? Play a DVD in OS X versus Windows. Browse the web and watch Firefox or Safari's CPU use in OS X versus Windows. Look at Flash performance in OS X versus Windows.

ANd yes, I have run benchmarks. First of all, games. Even on the pathetic GPUs that Apple includes in the MacBooks, games tend to run twice as fast in Windows versus OS X. I've run Handbrake on both my HP and my Mac. MacBook: 2.16GHz Core 2 Duo 3GB of RAM. HP: 2GHz Core 2 Duo, 3GB of RAM. Handbrake finished faster on the HP by a few seconds.

But I'm not just talking about raw speed (its painfully obvious to anyone who monitors CPU usage that OS X and 3rd party OS X software eats up more CPU cycles than Windows), I'm talking about application loading time as well. Thanks to the way Windows Vista works, all of my most frequently used software loads instantly on a fresh boot. I click the FF icon and its there. I click AIM and its there. I click MSN and its there. Even iTunes. I click it and it opens nearly instantly. In OS X after a fresh boot I have to wait several seconds for each application to open.

I haven't been here very long, but have many years logged in the PC world. It's clear to see why the other posters here seem to generally dislike you. You're not remotely constructive or helpful, and are at best a poor troll. Why is that? PPC hold out fan boy? Or Windows fanboy?

Its funny when Apple fans resort to school yard insults when they can't handle hearing the truth.

I was actually an Apple fanboy. I loved my Mac. Then I started experiencing OS X's crashing problems. Then about 3 months after I got my first MacBook I noticed that, for half the price, I could have gotten something with a similar processor, 17" screen, twice the memory, twice the HDD space, and a GeForce Go 7600. My MacBook couldn't even choke out a good 30fps in a then 3 year old game at medium settings at 800x600, yet a system costing half as much could run the same game (UT2k4) at native display resolution, max settings, solid 60fps. I realized then that I was a fool for buying into the Apple Hype and that I made a huge mistake buying my MacBook. I should have taken that refund that Apple offered.

Yay, mosx is back!

Yup ;) Had family visiting and was busy.

BTW, I'm currently considering this laptop, for all of you Macbook lovers. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1211587727985 For $1450, it has a 17" screen, and its graphics card leaves the 17" MBP in the dust. 1920 x 1200 resolution, 4GB ram standard, 7200 RPM HDD, ect. It's a Gateway, and yet it has positive reviews everywhere.

Thats an awesome system. I'd buy it if I was in the market right now. That just blows away all of the Macs out there and it costs half as much as the MacBook Pro 17"!

I can get all those specs for the price of a top-of-the-line Macbook. Who cares about how thin and light the Macbook is? You can't use it on your lap, or you'll lose your fertility and get second-degree burns.

Heh heh I like that.

[craigsharp@spym]

I was actually an Apple fanboy. I loved my Mac. Then I started experiencing OS X's crashing problems. Then about 3 months after I got my first MacBook I noticed that, for half the price, I could have gotten something with a similar processor, 17" screen, twice the memory, twice the HDD space, and a GeForce Go 7600. My MacBook couldn't even choke out a good 30fps in a then 3 year old game at medium settings at 800x600, yet a system costing half as much could run the same game (UT2k4) at native display resolution, max settings, solid 60fps. I realized then that I was a fool for buying into the Apple Hype and that I made a huge mistake buying my MacBook. I should have taken that refund that Apple offered.


Right............ Please tell me where I can get a 17" laptop with 320gb HDD with 4gb Ram with a dedicated video card for $650. Congratulations on finding the "deal of a lifetime"!

[aristobrat]

iMovie '08 is not very good at all. iDVD is okay, but generally people don't care about fancy menus and such. In fact, I have yet to talk to someone in a real world situation (even in an Apple store) that likes DVD menus.
Here are two real world situations:

1. My world is digital, but I have to interact with older family members that don't have a computer (and have zero interest in getting one). About 2x a year, I spend about 15 minutes making an iDVD of all of the iPhoto galleries and iMovies I've made and shared with the rest of the family via MobileMe.

The menus come in handy because it'd be pretty crappy to go "here's a DVD with 600 pictures from 23 different events that happened over the last 6 months -- all lumped together because I didn't understand how easy it was to keep them divided up so you could easily browse through them by event".

2. Our CIO videotaped us moving our data center, used iMovie to edit it down to on 10 minute long movie, and then used iDVD to burn a copy for each of us to get at the project celebration dinner.

But uninstalling software in Leopard generally leaves behind a mess of .plist files in various folders that you have to hunt down and destroy, even if you do use AppDelete or AppZappper.
And this is different from the mess left in the Windows registry how? At least OS X system doesn't load each orphaned .plist into memory every time the system boots like Windows does with the registry.

The MacBook isn't as much smaller as a PC as the Apple faithful would like you to believe. I have a "fat" 15.4" HP and the MacBook. The MacBook weighs 5lbs and is only a cm or so smaller in each direction than the HP. The HP weighs 6lbs (with the higher capacity, but not bigger, battery and dedicated graphics).
I think it's great that HP and Dell are finally making notebooks as thin and light as Apple has been doing for the last 5 years. :)

the casing is prone to cracking from regular use and heat, its prone to discoloring due to regular use and heat, and it uses integrated graphics.
Hmmm. That was a complaint heard frequently during the first generation of MacBooks (and Apple replaced the discolored cases). Haven't heard mass complaints of that in the last year or so.

Dell and their "premium" designs are the only ones that use slot loaders.
You might want to check out Sony's VAIO CR series and Gateway's T Series. In addition to Dell, they appear to be using Apple's "stupid design".

Side note, is Vostro one of Dell's "premium designs"? They have them too.

Not true. Any PC in Best Buy, CC, Fry's, etc. with dedicated graphics will have HDMI outputs. You can even pick up a $750 HP with integrated graphics (ATI 3200) with an HDMI output and blu-ray. Again, HDMI was part of the Santa Rosa spec. It was up to the manufacturers to opt out of including it.
Having just walked thru Best Buy with a friend about a week ago, looking at laptops, I can tell you that more than 50% of PC laptops on display DO NOT HAVE HDMI on them.

[hogfaninga]

I was in Best Buy a few hours ago and saw this person/poster(get a life) claim most laptops at Best Buy have HDMI. That is another lie by this guy. I even asked a sales guy there and he said nope only a few of the laptops they carry have HDMI in the store, but they can order anything I wanted. I told him I was happy with my Mac and he said he was a Mac user also. BTW those PC's are god awful ugly(I know you shouldn't buy a computer for the looks, but dang).

[Eidorian]

Is there something wrong with wanting a Mac to have hardware that PC competitors have available? :confused:

[m1stake]

"I like Macs. I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I have my opinions set in stone. I make sweeping generalizations and half truths that benefit my argument. I make fun of Vista even though I've never used it."

"I like PCs. I'm fairly knowledgeable. I also make sweeping generalizations and half truths that benefit my argument. I enjoy arguing on Apple sites in my spare time."

Old argument, let other people think and say whatever they want because there isn't much you can do about it.

Is there something wrong with wanting a Mac to have hardware features that PC competitors have available? :confused:

Absolutely NOT. Apples' competition has some very good products, and Apple would benefit by using some of those features. The inverse is also true, of course.

[mosx]

Right............ Please tell me where I can get a 17" laptop with 320gb HDD with 4gb Ram with a dedicated video card for $650. Congratulations on finding the "deal of a lifetime"!

Uh as I said before, that was after I had gotten my first MacBook. That was a year and a half ago (notice the GeForce Go 7600? well, maybe not since Apple uses low-end hardware).

It was between $700 and $800 (can't remember) and my MacBook was $1406 after taxes.

It had a similar processor, GeForce Go 7600, 2GB of RAM, 160GB HDD, 17" screen, etc. It was on newegg.

My world is digital, but I have to interact with older family members that don't have a computer (and have zero interest in getting one). About 2x a year, I spend about 15 minutes making an iDVD of all of the iPhoto galleries and iMovies I've made and shared with the rest of the family via MobileMe.

The menus come in handy because it'd be pretty crappy to go "here's a DVD with 600 pictures from 23 different events that happened over the last 6 months -- all lumped together because I didn't understand how easy it was to keep them divided up so you could easily browse through them by event".

Photo slideshows burned to DVD? I tried that with iDVD. Bored me and everyone else I know to death.

And I was referring to the fact of how hard it is to set up DVD menus in iDVD (compared to freeware alternatives on Windows, iDVD is easy but not anywhere near as easy as it should be). Freeware alternatives on Windows can set up a basic menu with all you need in just a few seconds.

2. Our CIO videotaped us moving our data center, used iMovie to edit it down to on 10 minute long movie, and then used iDVD to burn a copy for each of us to get at the project celebration dinner.

This and what you described above can be done with freeware. Faster in Windows as well as with higher quality video encoders and more basic menus that are both easier to setup and easier to navigate.

And this is different from the mess left in the Windows registry how? At least OS X system doesn't load each orphaned .plist into memory every time the system boots like Windows does with the registry.

Most software deletes their registry entries upon uninstall. For those small number of really old apps that don't theres always ccleaner. Simple, free (unlike most OS X software), and fast. Helps keep a system running like new.

Before you try to say anything about having to use software like that, Onyx should be built-in to OS X considering how much its needed.

I think it's great that HP and Dell are finally making notebooks as thin and light as Apple has been doing for the last 5 years.

All of my HPs over the years have weighed 6lbs. And didn't you notice I said it was "fat"? It is thicker than my MacBook. But it has a proper cooling system, unlike the MacBook. So I can actually use it on my lap without having to worry about my fertility.

I don't ever want a computer as thin as a MacBook or MacBook Pro again. I want a computer with a proper cooling system that won't cause the casing to get too hot and discolor or break as a result. I want to be able to use it on a warm day without worrying about heat. I want user serviceable parts. I also want dedicated graphics.

Hmmm. That was a complaint heard frequently during the first generation of MacBooks (and Apple replaced the discolored cases). Haven't heard mass complaints of that in the last year or so.

What you're referring to is the top case/palm rest discoloring due to a reaction with skin oils. That still exists to an extent. But the real problem now is yellowing from heat.

You might want to check out Sony's VAIO CR series and Gateway's T Series. In addition to Dell, they appear to be using Apple's "stupid design".

Side note, is Vostro one of Dell's "premium designs"? They have them too.

Well, Sony's junk is generally just that. Junk. They use low quality components like Apple and then bump up the price to Apple-like heights.

Gateway's T Series does? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8892861&type=product&id=1211587728253 hmm not there it doesn't.

Some do some don't. You have an OPTION *gasp*. But I know you Apple fan's can't grasp the concept of "options" in a computer ;)

However, on the ONE T series I did see with a slot loader, it looked like it was user replaceable. It was NOT integrated into the system the same way it is on a MacBook.

Dell's "Vostro" is basically the business version of the Inspiron, but with slot loading drives on a few.

One thing to consider, however, is that the Vostro is built FAR BETTER than a MacBook and Dell offers on-site supprot for $20 on top of the base warranty that is included. For $99 you get a 3 year warranty with 3 year next business day on-site support.

In that case, the problems presented by an integrated slot-loader drive are irrelevant because of the fact that you can call Dell and have someone out the NEXT DAY to fix it.

Not like what happened with my MacBook when the DVD writer went bad. Had to send it in. Got it back, case was practically destroyed and the DVD drive was untouched. Sent it back out, service center performed a re-alignment that made things worse, sent it back with a newly destroyed new case. Apple finally replaced it. I was without a Mac for 3 weeks.

Having just walked thru Best Buy with a friend about a week ago, looking at laptops, I can tell you that more than 50% of PC laptops on display DO NOT HAVE HDMI on them.

Here in Southern California they do ;) Even without HDMI, at least I don't have to pay for expensive adapters to connect to VGA or S-Video. Why is it that my $900 HP has standard display ports built-in (HDMI, VGA, S-Video) but my MacBook requires me to buy $60 worth of adapters if I want to use all 3?

I was in Best Buy a few hours ago and saw this person/poster(get a life) claim most laptops at Best Buy have HDMI. That is another lie by this guy. I even asked a sales guy there and he said nope only a few of the laptops they carry have HDMI in the store, but they can order anything I wanted. I told him I was happy with my Mac and he said he was a Mac user also. BTW those PC's are god awful ugly(I know you shouldn't buy a computer for the looks, but dang).

As I said, here in Southern California they do.

My $900 HP does.

As I said before, its better to at least have built-in VGA and S-Video than having to buy expensive adapters for everything. Why doesn't Apple include the adapters in the box any more like they did with the iBook?

If you want to see an ugly laptop, take a look at the MacBook Pro ;) The grill designs over the speakers look like its right out of the 70s.

[frogcat]

Not true.

iTunes and iPhoto are the only useful apps in the iLife suite. iTunes on Windows is definitely lacking and slow thanks to Apple's shoddy Windows software porting division. Vista has built-in photo organizing software that is every bit as good as iPhoto. You can also get freeware alternatives like Picassa, which many regard as better than iPhoto. You can also get HP's free "Photosmart Essentials" which does everything iPhoto does, including the "photo books" and all of that. But with the added benefit of being able to print out those photo books on YOUR OWN paper and in your own styles! You buy the book and insert the pages.

iMovie '08 is not very good at all. iDVD is okay, but generally people don't care about fancy menus and such. In fact, I have yet to talk to someone in a real world situation (even in an Apple store) that likes DVD menus.

Garageband is essentially useless. If you're recording instruments you want higher quality and more capable software anyway.



Neither Vista nor Leopard is easier to use than the other. They're both equal in terms of "ease of use". Leopard is not "more simple". On the surface, Leopard seems to have some advantages. Such as easier software installs. But uninstalling software in Leopard generally leaves behind a mess of .plist files in various folders that you have to hunt down and destroy, even if you do use AppDelete or AppZappper.

I also find Windows to be far more "logical" than OS X in some instances. Alt-Tab for instance. In Windows it takes you directly to the window you want. In OS X it just takes you to the application, then you have to use another keyboard combination/shortcut to get to the desired window.



And I laugh at people who think Windows is a joke. OS X is far behind Windows in many aspects. Let me know when OS X has system wide hardware acceleration for video please. Something Windows has had in various forms since the 1990s.

Heh, Windows had that before Mac OS had pre-emptive multi-tasking. Kind of funny ;)



The MacBook isn't as much smaller as a PC as the Apple faithful would like you to believe. I have a "fat" 15.4" HP and the MacBook. The MacBook weighs 5lbs and is only a cm or so smaller in each direction than the HP. The HP weighs 6lbs (with the higher capacity, but not bigger, battery and dedicated graphics). When I have it in a bag (most bags are designed for 15.4" anyway) I can't tell the difference between the two.

When I'm using it on my lap, the HP has a HUGE advantage in terms of heat. All Macs lack efficient cooling. As a result, the bottom of the case can COOK. Its amazing how hot it gets even with reduced performance settings and not doing anything other than chatting and browsing. The HP stays cool though, thanks to the fan on the bottom pulling air up and pushing it out the back, compared to the MacBook's exhaust only fan with no circulation and no vents in the casing except around the fan.



Sigh. Its always ridiculous when people try to bring up this argument. Its completely inaccurate. The XPS is a system you buy because you care about vanity and because you want a portable.

The MacBook is generally the most popular MacBook and the one people buy because its the ONLY Apple notebook they can afford. As I've said many times before, nearly all people do not walk into an Apple store and see the MacBook and think "hmm its cheaper AND smaller" they look at the 15.4" and say "wow I can't afford this. But I can afford the smaller one".

Its perfectly reasonable to compare a standard notebook PC to a MacBook because, again, people are not buying it for its size. They are buying it because it is all they can afford.

And for $50 more than the middle MacBook, you get dedicated graphics with the XPS anyway. So its still well ahead of the MacBook.



Oh please. Whats premium about the MacBook? It's lacking standard connectivity (HDMI, eSATA, VGA/S-Video without adapters, full size ExpressCard, memory card readers), the casing is prone to cracking from regular use and heat, its prone to discoloring due to regular use and heat, and it uses integrated graphics. No "premium" computer would EVER have integrated graphics. Even the old last generation iBook still has better graphics than the current MacBook!



Don't resort to school yard insults just because you don't like hearing the truth.



Dell and their "premium" designs are the only ones that use slot loaders.

Every one else, including Dell's "regular" notebooks, HP, Gateway, custom makers, Asus, etc. all use standard tray loaders that can be replaced by the end user.



Not true. Any PC in Best Buy, CC, Fry's, etc. with dedicated graphics will have HDMI outputs. You can even pick up a $750 HP with integrated graphics (ATI 3200) with an HDMI output and blu-ray. Again, HDMI was part of the Santa Rosa spec. It was up to the manufacturers to opt out of including it.



Two things. First, at least Dell gives you the option of buying a system at that price. What if that is all someone needs or all they can afford? At least PC manufacturers give you the choice of being able to pick and choose what hardware you want for what price. With Apple you either have to buy an expensive system that is not worth it (entry MacBook) or go up to a level ($1299) where you can get what could be considered a gaming PC.

At least Dell, HP, Gateway, and many others offer systems at all price ranges. Theres no reason for someone to spend $1100 on a computer if they only want to do a small amount of things. With integrated graphics, 1GB of RAM, and no DVD writer, that entry level MacBook is no better than that $450 Dell anyway. Except the Dell WOULD have a DVD writer!

Second thing, why bring up iLife? Again, iLife is essentially useless. iTunes is good in OS X, but not in Windows (Apple's fault). iPhoto is good, but there are better and free alternatives out there for Windows. Most people will never use iMovie, iDVD, or Garageband outside of opening it up and seeing what it looks like. I personally rather have the option of paying $100 less and not having iDVD, iMovie, and Garageband installed. Or let me spend $200 less and have NO iLIfe apps. Let me download iTunes for free and spend $25 to get iPhoto.

Most people still don't live around an Apple store either. I live in southern California and the closest Apple store is a good 70 mile round trip.

With PCs, however, you do get 24/7 support. It doesn't close on the weekends.



You'd be hard pressed to find a system with dedicated graphics that does NOT have HDMI output and is a current generation model.



I already said that Dell and their "premium" lines are using slot loaders. No other respectable manufacturer does.



Of all of Dell's sales, how many XPS and Studio systems are sold?

Exactly. I bet Dell sells less XPS and Studio systems than Apple sells Macs

Oh and 800 people voting on a survey does not represent the tens of millions of Vista users ;)



Heh, you think Apple's build quality is good? THen tell me, why does the MacBook Pro have yellowing screen issues still? Why does it still have sound issues (electronic sounds coming out of the headphone/speaker jack)? Why does it warp from heat? Why does it bend and scratch? Why does the case start to separate due to heat? Why does the MacBook still have cracking issues on the palmrest? Why does the MacBook crack on the bottom due to heat? Why does it crack around the vent due to heat? Why does it turn yellow on the bottom due to heat? Why does it turn yellow around the vents due to heat?



Have you watched your CPU use at all? Play a DVD in OS X versus Windows. Browse the web and watch Firefox or Safari's CPU use in OS X versus Windows. Look at Flash performance in OS X versus Windows.

ANd yes, I have run benchmarks. First of all, games. Even on the pathetic GPUs that Apple includes in the MacBooks, games tend to run twice as fast in Windows versus OS X. I've run Handbrake on both my HP and my Mac. MacBook: 2.16GHz Core 2 Duo 3GB of RAM. HP: 2GHz Core 2 Duo, 3GB of RAM. Handbrake finished faster on the HP by a few seconds.

But I'm not just talking about raw speed (its painfully obvious to anyone who monitors CPU usage that OS X and 3rd party OS X software eats up more CPU cycles than Windows), I'm talking about application loading time as well. Thanks to the way Windows Vista works, all of my most frequently used software loads instantly on a fresh boot. I click the FF icon and its there. I click AIM and its there. I click MSN and its there. Even iTunes. I click it and it opens nearly instantly. In OS X after a fresh boot I have to wait several seconds for each application to open.



Its funny when Apple fans resort to school yard insults when they can't handle hearing the truth.

I was actually an Apple fanboy. I loved my Mac. Then I started experiencing OS X's crashing problems. Then about 3 months after I got my first MacBook I noticed that, for half the price, I could have gotten something with a similar processor, 17" screen, twice the memory, twice the HDD space, and a GeForce Go 7600. My MacBook couldn't even choke out a good 30fps in a then 3 year old game at medium settings at 800x600, yet a system costing half as much could run the same game (UT2k4) at native display resolution, max settings, solid 60fps. I realized then that I was a fool for buying into the Apple Hype and that I made a huge mistake buying my MacBook. I should have taken that refund that Apple offered.



Yup ;) Had family visiting and was busy.



Thats an awesome system. I'd buy it if I was in the market right now. That just blows away all of the Macs out there and it costs half as much as the MacBook Pro 17"!



Heh heh I like that.

What is going on here? Are threads lockable in Macrumors? Do it now. This is a terrible waste of space.

We're in a macrumors forum, where people love macs. Mosx, what is your deal? I understand you had a bad time with your macbook, but chill out. Time has passed. Be happy with your PC. Go spread your joy with other PC lovers. And man, stop mentioning price. That's your decision to buy, and you should have researched the risk of buying your mac. I researched PC, and it wasn't for me. Life sucks for you cause you made a bad decision for yourself.

People have different experiences than you do man. My last 3 macs worked fine: a powerbook, and 2 macbooks. My PC's they shot straight to hell in 2 years. I am a reckless University student that cares ***** about maintaining my computer. I am the same with my macs, and they are wonderful. My 1.5Ghz powerbook (4 years)...had a geekbench of 740. My 1.6Ghz Core duo (2 years) Thinkpad had over twice that score. Windows killed my PC to unworkable, and oh yeah my fan broke down in that laptop. My powerbook...all it had was faulty bluetooth. I sold that for $800. Wow, macs even make me some money after 4 years. I also had a Dell with batteries that literally fell out while using them. Oh, and my vaio that had billions of bloatware that i never used. I sold that too.

I now use my mac to write applications for windows....go figure. And that software that you keep burning; Apple's software is about the most user friendly software I had ever used. Sure it isn't the best out there, but it beats the hell out of Windows software that looks boring and technical. Its for all the people that hate dealing with computer speak, tech jargon, and don't want to look. If you hate that, then don't use it. Yes you are better than all of us cause you can read and use Vista.

I hate to do this but Mosx, please tell us something you like about Apple, so you gain some credibility. You really do sound like a troll...praising PC's for all its worth in a Mac forum.

P.S. This is the best mac forum. Don't ruin it for these helpful people, by tainting this place with your negativity. That's what Engadget is for.

People here are just looking for Mac advice, and some don't even know what a Core Duo is.

[Tallest Skil]

What is going on here?... ...This is a terrible waste of space.

You're right. WHY would you quote his whole worthless, gigantic post?!

End this argument now with this:

HDMI would be nice. Apple doesn't do it yet, and they're not releasing an update JUST for it. In all probability, Apple will go with DisplayPort for their next line of connectors. Should this happen, it will happen in this order: Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, iMac, MacBook, Mac Mini.

DisplayPort is small enough to not require a proprietary "mini-DisplayPort" like Apple's mini- and micro-DVI solutions.

And to shut people up about it, Blu-ray is compatible with OS X. Blu-ray movies that use HDCP are the only form of Blu-ray media that is not. Apple does not like DRM, and HDCP is its worst incarnation yet. The adoption of Blu-ray will be in the aforementioned order if Apple chooses to give its computers Blu-ray drives at all.

Thread over... please.

[Dybbuk]

The Apple community could use more people who aren't going to simply praise everything that comes out of Cupertino, and I write this message from my MacBook, my only computer. The fact of the matter is, everything mosx says is true. You can still love Apple's products, you can still love your Macs, but it's important to not become media illiterate and be able to see the forest through the trees.

I love my MacBook, but not as much as I did before I bought there. There were some harsh realities I had to accept as time went on with this machine, and mosx chronicled a lot of it.

I don't plan to switch back, but I wouldn't rule it out. If Apple knows that can put out whatever the hell they want and we'll love it, where's the incentive to improve?

[polaris20]

Not true.

iTunes and iPhoto are the only useful apps in the iLife suite. iTunes on Windows is definitely lacking and slow thanks to Apple's shoddy Windows software porting division.

You forgot GarageBand, iMovie, and iDVD, all very useful. GB is used all over the place. Check sevenstring.org and Harmony-Central, there are a lot of users, and it's a great program for recording now that it does 24-bit multitrack recording.

Vista has built-in photo organizing software that is every bit as good as iPhoto. You can also get freeware alternatives like Picassa, which many regard as better than iPhoto. You can also get HP's free "Photosmart Essentials" which does everything iPhoto does, including the "photo books" and all of that. But with the added benefit of being able to print out those photo books on YOUR OWN paper and in your own styles! You buy the book and insert the pages.

iMovie '08 is not very good at all. iDVD is okay, but generally people don't care about fancy menus and such. In fact, I have yet to talk to someone in a real world situation (even in an Apple store) that likes DVD menus.

What's "not very good about it"? It works very well, and is easy to use. What am I missing? :confused:

Garageband is essentially useless. If you're recording instruments you want higher quality and more capable software anyway.

See above. Obviously you're commenting on something you know nothing about once again, because the quality in GB is great. You do know that much of the quality of a recording has to do with converters, right? The summing in GB might not be as good as Logic or others, but it does a damn good job.

Neither Vista nor Leopard is easier to use than the other. They're both equal in terms of "ease of use". Leopard is not "more simple". On the surface, Leopard seems to have some advantages. Such as easier software installs. But uninstalling software in Leopard generally leaves behind a mess of .plist files in various folders that you have to hunt down and destroy, even if you do use AppDelete or AppZappper.

I also find Windows to be far more "logical" than OS X in some instances. Alt-Tab for instance. In Windows it takes you directly to the window you want. In OS X it just takes you to the application, then you have to use another keyboard combination/shortcut to get to the desired window.

That's your personal preference, not a fact.

And I laugh at people who think Windows is a joke. OS X is far behind Windows in many aspects. Let me know when OS X has system wide hardware acceleration for video please. Something Windows has had in various forms since the 1990s.

Heh, Windows had that before Mac OS had pre-emptive multi-tasking. Kind of funny ;)



The MacBook isn't as much smaller as a PC as the Apple faithful would like you to believe. I have a "fat" 15.4" HP and the MacBook. The MacBook weighs 5lbs and is only a cm or so smaller in each direction than the HP. The HP weighs 6lbs (with the higher capacity, but not bigger, battery and dedicated graphics). When I have it in a bag (most bags are designed for 15.4" anyway) I can't tell the difference between the two.

When I'm using it on my lap, the HP has a HUGE advantage in terms of heat. All Macs lack efficient cooling. As a result, the bottom of the case can COOK. Its amazing how hot it gets even with reduced performance settings and not doing anything other than chatting and browsing. The HP stays cool though, thanks to the fan on the bottom pulling air up and pushing it out the back, compared to the MacBook's exhaust only fan with no circulation and no vents in the casing except around the fan.



Sigh. Its always ridiculous when people try to bring up this argument. Its completely inaccurate. The XPS is a system you buy because you care about vanity and because you want a portable.

The MacBook is generally the most popular MacBook and the one people buy because its the ONLY Apple notebook they can afford. As I've said many times before, nearly all people do not walk into an Apple store and see the MacBook and think "hmm its cheaper AND smaller" they look at the 15.4" and say "wow I can't afford this. But I can afford the smaller one".

Its perfectly reasonable to compare a standard notebook PC to a MacBook because, again, people are not buying it for its size. They are buying it because it is all they can afford.

And for $50 more than the middle MacBook, you get dedicated graphics with the XPS anyway. So its still well ahead of the MacBook.



Oh please. Whats premium about the MacBook? It's lacking standard connectivity (HDMI, eSATA, VGA/S-Video without adapters, full size ExpressCard, memory card readers), the casing is prone to cracking from regular use and heat, its prone to discoloring due to regular use and heat, and it uses integrated graphics. No "premium" computer would EVER have integrated graphics. Even the old last generation iBook still has better graphics than the current MacBook!



Don't resort to school yard insults just because you don't like hearing the truth.



Dell and their "premium" designs are the only ones that use slot loaders.

Every one else, including Dell's "regular" notebooks, HP, Gateway, custom makers, Asus, etc. all use standard tray loaders that can be replaced by the end user.



Not true. Any PC in Best Buy, CC, Fry's, etc. with dedicated graphics will have HDMI outputs. You can even pick up a $750 HP with integrated graphics (ATI 3200) with an HDMI output and blu-ray. Again, HDMI was part of the Santa Rosa spec. It was up to the manufacturers to opt out of including it.



Two things. First, at least Dell gives you the option of buying a system at that price. What if that is all someone needs or all they can afford? At least PC manufacturers give you the choice of being able to pick and choose what hardware you want for what price. With Apple you either have to buy an expensive system that is not worth it (entry MacBook) or go up to a level ($1299) where you can get what could be considered a gaming PC.

At least Dell, HP, Gateway, and many others offer systems at all price ranges. Theres no reason for someone to spend $1100 on a computer if they only want to do a small amount of things. With integrated graphics, 1GB of RAM, and no DVD writer, that entry level MacBook is no better than that $450 Dell anyway. Except the Dell WOULD have a DVD writer!

Second thing, why bring up iLife? Again, iLife is essentially useless. iTunes is good in OS X, but not in Windows (Apple's fault). iPhoto is good, but there are better and free alternatives out there for Windows. Most people will never use iMovie, iDVD, or Garageband outside of opening it up and seeing what it looks like. I personally rather have the option of paying $100 less and not having iDVD, iMovie, and Garageband installed. Or let me spend $200 less and have NO iLIfe apps. Let me download iTunes for free and spend $25 to get iPhoto.

Most people still don't live around an Apple store either. I live in southern California and the closest Apple store is a good 70 mile round trip.

With PCs, however, you do get 24/7 support. It doesn't close on the weekends.

As someone who deals with HP on a nearly daily basis, HP service sucks dogshit. Absolutely the worst in the industry. Getting anything fixed through them is like pulling teeth. A lot of it is because they can't understand what you're saying, and vice versa, because you're always calling overseas. Even for business support. It's not until you call for a server problem that you get to someone that speaks English as their first language.

You'd be hard pressed to find a system with dedicated graphics that does NOT have HDMI output and is a current generation model.



I already said that Dell and their "premium" lines are using slot loaders. No other respectable manufacturer does.



Of all of Dell's sales, how many XPS and Studio systems are sold?

Exactly. I bet Dell sells less XPS and Studio systems than Apple sells Macs

Oh and 800 people voting on a survey does not represent the tens of millions of Vista users ;)



Heh, you think Apple's build quality is good? THen tell me, why does the MacBook Pro have yellowing screen issues still? Why does it still have sound issues (electronic sounds coming out of the headphone/speaker jack)? Why does it warp from heat? Why does it bend and scratch? Why does the case start to separate due to heat? Why does the MacBook still have cracking issues on the palmrest? Why does the MacBook crack on the bottom due to heat? Why does it crack around the vent due to heat? Why does it turn yellow on the bottom due to heat? Why does it turn yellow around the vents due to heat?



Have you watched your CPU use at all? Play a DVD in OS X versus Windows. Browse the web and watch Firefox or Safari's CPU use in OS X versus Windows. Look at Flash performance in OS X versus Windows.

ANd yes, I have run benchmarks. First of all, games. Even on the pathetic GPUs that Apple includes in the MacBooks, games tend to run twice as fast in Windows versus OS X. I've run Handbrake on both my HP and my Mac. MacBook: 2.16GHz Core 2 Duo 3GB of RAM. HP: 2GHz Core 2 Duo, 3GB of RAM. Handbrake finished faster on the HP by a few seconds.

But I'm not just talking about raw speed (its painfully obvious to anyone who monitors CPU usage that OS X and 3rd party OS X software eats up more CPU cycles than Windows), I'm talking about application loading time as well. Thanks to the way Windows Vista works, all of my most frequently used software loads instantly on a fresh boot. I click the FF icon and its there. I click AIM and its there. I click MSN and its there. Even iTunes. I click it and it opens nearly instantly. In OS X after a fresh boot I have to wait several seconds for each application to open.

Sounds like you're doing something wrong, because Vista is always slower than OSX on identical hardware in actual benchmarking, not sitting there saying "ooh it feels faster" as your description reads.

On my 400Mhz TiBook, everything pops right up; it's just there. Very fast boot time, very responsive. Not quite sure what you could have done to make your MacBook slow; I guess it is possible for a user to screw it up.

Its funny when Apple fans resort to school yard insults when they can't handle hearing the truth.

The problem is, there's not a whole helluva lot of truth in what you're saying. To me you're just some typical user who doesn't know what they're doing, doesn't know what they're talking about, and then slagging a company for it on a web forum.

I was actually an Apple fanboy. I loved my Mac. Then I started experiencing OS X's crashing problems. Then about 3 months after I got my first MacBook I noticed that, for half the price, I could have gotten something with a similar processor, 17" screen, twice the memory, twice the HDD space, and a GeForce Go 7600. My MacBook couldn't even choke out a good 30fps in a then 3 year old game at medium settings at 800x600, yet a system costing half as much could run the same game (UT2k4) at native display resolution, max settings, solid 60fps. I realized then that I was a fool for buying into the Apple Hype and that I made a huge mistake buying my MacBook. I should have taken that refund that Apple offered.



Yup ;) Had family visiting and was busy.



Thats an awesome system. I'd buy it if I was in the market right now. That just blows away all of the Macs out there and it costs half as much as the MacBook Pro 17"!



Heh heh I like that.

Again, people who judge a computer based solely on the specs of the computer should just go out and buy their ****** consumer laptop at Best Buy. Enjoy their crappy support, enjoy the bloatware it has installed, and be happy.

As someone who's worked with computers for a living, it's absolutely painful to read posts from guys like you, because some people actually believe your ********, and it's dismaying. It's worse than going to Tigerdirect and listening to the dipshit salespeople there tell customers the wrong information.

[Chappers]

mosx.

You often ask for proof - you are given it, in the form of of surveys. One survey polled 800 people the other 3000. I think these polls surveyed more people than the evidence of "mosx and everyone he knows".

There have been approx 260 million Vista licenses sold (and a number of those are actually not using Vista but XP) - but that's less than a 20% uptake rate of total users. Looks like Jerry's got his work cut out. Maybe he can drop by Intel first and convince them - it appears they're sticking with XP until Windows 7 comes out. If Vista is so good and cuts all of the security and compatibility problems - business would be running to it with open arms. It would be saving them so much money. Maybe they can keep delaying 7 until everyone has finally given up as they did with XP.

You even ask me to prove your arguments for you. You say the iLife apps are not used and are useless, then ask me to come up with the information to prove you right.

Normally when a person make a statement as fact they can usually follow it up with some evidence.


Too sum up.

1. You proved for me that Vista does not have a full set of of iLife comparable apps pre-installed.

2. You have been unable to prove that people don't use iWeb and Garageband. You did in fact twist my original comment that these apps were available at start up and could do the job. The number of user groups and forums for these apps prove you wrong. Not forgetting that Oasis and Justice use GB and a Radiohead song is for sale on iTunes that is provided with a code that allows users to tinker with it in Garageband. You lose twice (once for twisting my argument and once for just being wrong)


3. You have now agreed that lots of people have basic video cameras (thats after telling me they didn't) and obviously they could use iMovie to edit them.
Then you told me no one edits these movies but then contradict yourself by saying people use VirtualDub to edit (like trimming the ends and adding sound I guess). So you lost the argument about possession of video cameras and then lose the argument about editing.

4. You have not proved iWeb and Garageband are useless. (see number 2). Obviously it will be difficult to prove seeing as not only are there user groups all over the world but professional musicians who are using Garageband too.

5. You have agreed that Vista doesn't ship with DVD decoders on all versions built in. Can you prove they all come with some third party compatible suite and that it has no compatibility problems?

6. You state that Mac users are elitist, foolish and look down on people and Apple fanboys and some PC users are they are just as ignorant as the average Mac user. These comments are designed to stir up an off topic emotional response and are therefore - trolling. The fact that you keep doing it - and getting the same response means you are aware you are doing it.

7. You implied that Windows pre-installed apps were inferior when you said "its just not publicized because, quite honestly, nobody uses them". You only implied - so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you that one.
Where as people really are using iApps.

8. I showed that lots of people have downgraded from Vista, you showed a continued lack of knowledge for how surveys work.

9. I quote you a survey about people downgrading - thus OEMs continue to offer XP on a range of machines up to 2.5 years after Vista was released. I even quoted your beloved HP on this who said they were offering it on a range of machines not just business PCs. It's a supply and demand thing. Lots of people downgrading meant OEM's exploit a loophole in their MS contracts and sell XP but under a Vista license (LOL).

10. Companies with monopolistic convictions are not offering choice. Thats why they have been convicted.
People are not choosing XP because they think how lucky that MS gave them the choice .... They're choosing it because they think Vista is crap or not worth the upgrade. Now that is laughable. This is another argument that you tried to twist but I'm afraid you lose again.

11. You did not to prove that Vista runs faster than XP. (don't forget to ask all 260 million licenses)

12. You agree that you didn't do much research (playing in an Apple store and buying into hype isn't research). And I still say - considering features that were important to you - like a large screen, card reader and games. I can understand you not noticing one of these - but all of them.

13. You admit you were stupid and in your opinion made a mistake. That's fair enough we all make them.

14. Viruses etc are still a major problem - otherwise they wouldn't exist. Just because you've never had one doesn't mean it's not true. If I google Vista viruses well over 3,00,000 web pages about it, are indexed. Apparently malware is down 60% on Vista - but that's still a lot of malware.

On a side note I was just reading reviews (very recent) of Vista. One person acclaimed Vista for being great, he'd had no problems what so ever installing. He had been forced however to turned off "User Account Control" as it had stopped Outlook working but otherwise everything was dandy.


Regarding price - You continue to be an evangelist on price when we all know this. We knew it before you came and we continue to know it.

Build quality - has Apple got it wrong with the MB - yes it looks like it has. Apple make mistakes (like everyone) - this is not news. Do I wish the world was perfect - yes - but its not.
Although I spoke to my brother-in-law about his HP pavillion laptop - its about 6 months old. Apparently he doesn't like to leave it on his lap for long because it gets too hot. He says it is far better on a table. Although he did say it improved since he downgraded to XP.

[aristobrat]

Is there something wrong with wanting a Mac to have hardware that PC competitors have available? :confused:
Not at all. I'd guess that almost every Mac owner would be happy to see some of the features that are slowly becoming mainstream on PCs start to be included with Macs.

Photo slideshows burned to DVD? I tried that with iDVD. Bored me and everyone else I know to death.
You said "In fact, I have yet to talk to someone in a real world situation (even in an Apple store) that likes DVD menus." I was simply giving you a real world situation of people that liked DVD menus. ;)

And I was referring to the fact of how hard it is to set up DVD menus in iDVD (compared to freeware alternatives on Windows, iDVD is easy but not anywhere near as easy as it should be). Freeware alternatives on Windows can set up a basic menu with all you need in just a few seconds.
Can you please cite a freeware example of what you're talking about. I've found menus so easy to create in iDVD that I'd love to see a Windows freeware program that does it easier and creates as professional of a result. ;)

Most software deletes their registry entries upon uninstall.
You said "But uninstalling software in Leopard generally leaves behind a mess of .plist files in various folders that you have to hunt down and destroy". What you didn't say that Windows acts the exact same way (where the responsibility of removing user preferences upon uninstall is left to the application), and in addition, those orphaned preferences consume system memory. ;)

That you're referring to is the top case/palm rest discoloring due to a reaction with skin oils. That still exists to an extent. But the real problem now is yellowing from heat.
Anecdotal. My anecdotal response is that when there is a "real problem" with Apple equipment, the forums here and elsewhere are full of busy threads complaining about the issues. The MacBook forums show none of that activity currently, so I wouldn't call that a current real problem. What criteria are you using to call it a real problem. ;)

Well, Sony's junk is generally just that. Junk. They use low quality components like Apple and then bump up the price to Apple-like heights.

Gateway's T Series does? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8892861&type=product&id=1211587728253 hmm not there it doesn't.

Some do some don't. You have an OPTION *gasp*. But I know you Apple fan's can't grasp the concept of "options" in a computer ;)
The point wasn't whether or not there was an option. ;) The point was your unqualified statement that "On PC notebooks you just power down, remove the battery, loosen a single screw and pull the drive out", and that Apple's design is "stupid", but you fail to mention that the same "stupid" design is just now starting to be adopted by some high-end PC notebook manufacturers. ;)

Threads with you are fun. You start out making very broad statements that are typically not totally accurate, and as people start to point out in the inaccuracies, you spin. ;)

The best spins are when you reply to a fact with your subjective opinion and then precede to act like everyone else on the fact of the planet shares your thoughts. ;)

:D

[Hawkeye411]

I've got the MacBook and I absolutely LOVE it. The screen size and quality is fine and it's very portable. However, my parents just bought a 15" Laptop (PC) and I was impressed with that particular size. Seems quite a bit larger than my 13" but it's not huge and heavy like most 17" laptops.

If you really want a Mac and your worried about price, go with the MacBook.

Cheers.
:):apple:

[smooth]

I've had my MacBook for almost a year now and I must say, I absolutely love this machine. I've had limited experience with computers. This is only my 3rd personal machine, previously sharing one Dell desktop and one E-Machine desktop with my wife and working with one Dell desktop and one IBM desktop with my employers. Of the 5 computers, I experienced a rapid decline in quality in 3 of them - my MacBook and current work IBM still working great (the IBM is only 6 months old). Two years from now, if my MacBook is still running as it is now and I'm not changing laundry or doing dishes while waiting for it to power up or for anything to load, then I will truly be sold on Apple's quality and longevity.

It's not a true complaint, but my only beef with Apple would be the screensize. The MBP is just too much machine for me to pay the money for bigger screen. So I "settled" for a 13.3" MacBook. Obviously it's not a huge issue since I made the switch. I really appreciate Apple for keeping their line-up simple and their base models I've seen are comparable to any other company's mid-level models. While not a huge market for it, I think Apple may be able to win over a few more souls if they offered a 15'4" and possibly even 17" "prosumers" models as well as a 13.3" MBP.

[mosx]

I hate to do this but Mosx, please tell us something you like about Apple, so you gain some credibility. You really do sound like a troll...praising PC's for all its worth in a Mac forum.

I only sound like a troll to those who can't stand hearing the truth ;)

I've already said that I love my iPhone and my iPods. Its just that Apple's computers are not where they should be, spec wise.

I would like Apple's computers if they were priced more appropriately. For example, the $1099 MacBook should not even exist. The $1299 MacBook should be $999 WITH dedicated graphics on par with a GeForce 8400M GT (not GS any more) or 9300M GS or ATI's Radeon 3450.

Blu-ray movies that use HDCP are the only form of Blu-ray media that is not. Apple does not like DRM, and HDCP is its worst incarnation yet. The adoption of Blu-ray will be in the aforementioned order if Apple chooses to give its computers Blu-ray drives at all.

Apple doesn't like DRM? Heh. You've never heard of the iTunes Music Store, right? More DRM than any other music store or source of music on the planet. How about the App Store, where Apple rejects apps for whatever reason they wish?

Or how about Apple's strict rules with DVD Player? They add DRM into that app that is not even required by the DVD Forum or to obtain a CSS license.

The fact of the matter is, everything mosx says is true.

Thank you ;) Good to see someone else with some common sense.

You forgot GarageBand, iMovie, and iDVD, all very useful.

No I didn't. You just didn't read the rest of my post ;)

GB is used all over the place. Check sevenstring.org and Harmony-Central, there are a lot of users, and it's a great program for recording now that it does 24-bit multitrack recording.

All of the musicians I know laugh at Garageband and wouldn't touch it. These are professional musicians that perform live shows and sell professionally pressed CDs.

They all rely on PCs with professional level soundcards and more advanced software and equipment. Any musician that records music with an integrated sound processor shouldn't be allowed to make music.

For the cost of a MacBook with a DVD writer, you can get yourself a PC setup with some very nice professional level audio equipment. You can't deny that.

What's "not very good about it"? It works very well, and is easy to use. What am I missing?

Never used the previous version of iMovie? There was a huge outcry here and at other Apple forums when iMovie '08 was released. So much so that it forced Apple to make the previous version available for download for all who wanted ot use it.

See above. Obviously you're commenting on something you know nothing about once again, because the quality in GB is great. You do know that much of the quality of a recording has to do with converters, right? The summing in GB might not be as good as Logic or others, but it does a damn good job.

If someone cares about quality, they are NOT going to use Garageband and their MacBook's (or any Mac) integrated sound processor. They're going to want an E-mu or M-Audio soundcard along with Pro Tools Software.

And as I said before, you can build a desktop PC with a good E-mu or M-Audio card plus the Pro Tools HD Software package for less than the cost of a MacBook with a DVD writer.

That's your personal preference, not a fact.

So somehow using two separate keyboard shortcuts is better than using one?

As someone who deals with HP on a nearly daily basis, HP service sucks dogshit. Absolutely the worst in the industry. Getting anything fixed through them is like pulling teeth. A lot of it is because they can't understand what you're saying, and vice versa, because you're always calling overseas. Even for business support. It's not until you call for a server problem that you get to someone that speaks English as their first language.

I've had mixed results with both companies. With Apple I've had people who obviously speak Spanish as a first language (which makes me wonder if they're in this country legally) and with HP I've sometimes been connected with someone in the US on the first try. It's about 50/50 with both companies.

The great thing is that I can set up a repair on a Saturday night with HP, while Apple I have to wait until Monday morning.

Sounds like you're doing something wrong, because Vista is always slower than OSX on identical hardware in actual benchmarking, not sitting there saying "ooh it feels faster" as your description reads.

Good job ignoring everything I said.

First of all, I pointed out that Handbrake and other video encoders finished faster in Vista than in OS X. Same software, similar hardware.

Secondly, I pointing out CPU usage. Care to show me that iTunes, Safari, Firefox, Mail, and others don't use more CPU use on OS X than their Vista counterparts when my experience is the exact opposite?

Do you also have PROOF of your claims of OS X being faster? I don't mean year and a half old benchmarks either. Benchmarks that test the final released to customers version of Service Pack 1 for Vista as well as modern drivers for the chipset and GPU (drivers that were updated for and released after SP1).

On my 400Mhz TiBook, everything pops right up; it's just there. Very fast boot time, very responsive. Not quite sure what you could have done to make your MacBook slow; I guess it is possible for a user to screw it up.

Heheh. Of course. It's NEVER Apple or OS X's fault. Just like OS X locking up on me is somehow MY fault. You know, somehow my emptying the Trash of jpg files or even moving my mouse, or not doing anything at all causes OS X to lock up while WIndows runs rock solid on the same hardware.

Your 400MHz PowerBook? Please. You can't even run modern software on it. So of course all of that older software will launch faster.

I'm simply stating a fact, that software opens faster on Vista thanks to the way its designed than OS X.

To me you're just some typical user who doesn't know what they're doing, doesn't know what they're talking about, and then slagging a company for it on a web forum.

rofl, yeah. Someone who has been building PCs from the ground up for more than a decade and using computers longer than most people in this forum, dating back to the DOS days, somehow doesn't know what he is doing. Right.

Again, Apple's problems are NEVER their fault. They're perfect. They're just short of God status. It's always the users fault.

Again, people who judge a computer based solely on the specs of the computer should just go out and buy their ****** consumer laptop at Best Buy. Enjoy their crappy support, enjoy the bloatware it has installed, and be happy.

What bloatware? My HP came with a Norton trial and thats it. My MacBook came with an Office trial, an iWork trial, and a bunch of board games, printer drivers (over 1GB!) and language translations that I did not need.

Apple's support is good? Really? Then why can't I call them on the weekends or after 6PM local time? Why, within the first year, do I have to pay $60 a call for software support after 90 days?

If Apple's support is so good, why did I have the experience I did? First, my MacBook was sent in for a dead DVD writer and the typical Apple Build Quality issues. It was yellowing from heat and the case was separating around the vents due to heat. Sent the notebook in to Flextronics, Apple's contracted repair facility for MacBooks at that time. It came back with the DVD drive untouched. But the new case was scratched to all hell and back. Sent it back out. DVD drive was rendered essentially useless (it could at least mount and read discs before, but not burn them), and the new case was scratched to all hell again. Now on to the replacement MacBook. Again, build quality issues. Case started separating. Palm rest, lower right corner. Battery started to warp as well. Sent it in. Comes back with a new case. Scratched to all hell again. Battery not replaced but scratched. Sent it back out again. Repeat, but this time it has a new battery that is also scratched up. Third time it went out and the Apple customer relations person told them to leave the plastics on so they didn't scratch it. What a concept! It finally came back repaired properly. Out of the 18 months I've had a MacBook it has been in Apple's hands for 1.5 of them. Oh want to know something even better? When everything started with my second MacBook I received a call from Ken Bell, one of Apple's executive customer relations. He basically accused me of being out to take Apple for a ride and get my money back as well as acting like an all around jerk. Yeah, that's quality customer support right there.

As someone who's worked with computers for a living, it's absolutely painful to read posts from guys like you, because some people actually believe your ********, and it's dismaying. It's worse than going to Tigerdirect and listening to the dipshit salespeople there tell customers the wrong information.

So you "work with computers for a living", right? If you're recommending people use a MacBook with Garageband and the MacBook's own sound hardware for recording then.. well, that basically says it all.

You often ask for proof - you are given it, in the form of of surveys. One survey polled 800 people the other 3000. I think these polls surveyed more people than the evidence of "mosx and everyone he knows".

Polling 800 or 3,000 people doesn't represent everyone as a whole. That's sort of like going to some backwater town in the south populated by say.. 5,000 people and asking them who they think will win the election and then every news organization out there using those poll results to say that the one candidate WILL win.

That small amount of people does NOT represent the tens of millions of people voting this November the same way that those 800 or 3,000 people do NOT represent the tens of millions of people who have bought Vista or Vista loaded PCs.

There have been approx 260 million Vista licenses sold (and a number of those are actually not using Vista but XP) - but that's less than a 20% uptake rate of total users.

You're referring to the fact that there are well over 1 billion Windows PCs in the world.

Which is kind of an idiotic thing to do.

You're completely overlooking the fact that the majority of those PCs are in countries where the people simply cannot afford to upgrade their hardware to a level that can run Vista. Nearly all of these PCs are running hardware that was high end around the time XP was launched, maybe even weaker.

It's completely idiotic to make that kind of comparison when the vast majority of those PCs simply cannot run Vista (nor would an equally as old Mac be able to run Leopard) and those PCs are generally in areas where they cannot be upgraded because of economic/money issues.

What about the people who are perfectly happy with what they have? You know, even though Apple is the definition of capitalism and the diehard fans support them by buying every single new product they release, some people are perfectly happy with buying a computer and then using it for several years. I know that concept is hard to grasp for an Apple fan. But there are people who are happy with what they have and don't see a reason to upgrade. Their computer still works good enough for them, the software they need still works for them.. if it all works the way they both want it to and need it to, why upgrade?

Maybe he can drop by Intel first and convince them - it appears they're sticking with XP until Windows 7 comes out. If Vista is so good and cuts all of the security and compatibility problems - business would be running to it with open arms. It would be saving them so much money.

Do you have any idea how businesses work?

First of all, theres the cost of upgrading. What if their PCs need upgrading? Then you have not only the cost of upgrading the software (as well as acquiring new and updated versions of software to run within that new OS), then you have the cost of upgrading the hardware. Upgrading the hardware and software comes with two price tags. The initial cost of buying the products and then paying the people who install it. Then if things look or work slightly differently, theres the cost of retraining the staff that uses it as well as the cost of retraining the IT staff to learn the ins and outs of the new products.

And like I said before, if the software and hardware are both working the way the business needs and wants them to, why upgrade? Unless you're in content creation and need the latest and greatest hardware, Office really isn't going to run any "better" now than on older hardware. You can still make basic presentations, spreadsheets, pie charts, and type up reports just as good on Office XP as you can on Office 2007. So I say again, if everything is working the way you want it to and need it to, why upgrade?

If you're a small business owner in this economy, every dollar you spend counts. So why should a small business owner spend thousands of dollars upgrading hardware, software, and retraining everyone for what really amounts to no real world productivity increases and no real world profit increases? All mission critical software still runs on XP.

1. You proved for me that Vista does not have a full set of of iLife comparable apps pre-installed.

Because it doesn't have iWeb or Garageband? Well, as I proved, iWeb is useless without Mobile Me. Show me websites not hosted by Mobile Me that were made with iWeb. Respectable sites.

And as I said earlier in my post, Garageband is useless. If you're someone who wants to record podcasts, Audacity is designed for recording and editing. It's freeware, it's lightweight, has MANY more ADVANCED features that Garageband does not.

If you're a musician who uses Garageband then you need a good slap from reality. For less than the cost of a MacBook with a DVD writer you can have professional level equipment on the PC side along with a PC that will be comparable to a Mac Pro in terms of overall processing power.

You have been unable to prove that people don't use iWeb and Garageband. You did in fact twist my original comment that these apps were available at start up and could do the job. The number of user groups and forums for these apps prove you wrong. Not forgetting that Oasis and Justice use GB and a Radiohead song is for sale on iTunes that is provided with a code that allows users to tinker with it in Garageband. You lose twice (once for twisting my argument and once for just being wrong)

Radiohead, Oasis, and Justice. Three bands that have had their careers either go downhill greatly over the last decade or are completely unknown. That basically proves MY point. Besides that song for "Romeo + Juliet" 12 years ago, what else has Radiohead ever been known for? What has Oasis ever been known for?

By pointing them out, you prove my point perfectly.

No respectable musician uses Garageband. Even indie bands (many I know of here in southern California and in the Las Vegas area) will not even go near Garageband. Even the hobbyists I know won't go near Garageband.

Again, show me respectable sites outside of Mobile Me that were made using iWeb.

You have now agreed that lots of people have basic video cameras (thats after telling me they didn't) and obviously they could use iMovie to edit them.
Then you told me no one edits these movies but then contradict yourself by saying people use VirtualDub to edit (like trimming the ends and adding sound I guess). So you lost the argument about possession of video cameras and then lose the argument about editing.

rofl, nice way to try twist things around.

I said that a lot of people do have video functionality on their digital cameras or cellphones. And that people do NOT edit those because they are generally quick and low quality clips. And I did clearly state that the editing done is generally just putting in flying text or something like that to describe the video on youtube.

iMovie was originally geared towards full blown video cameras. Not low quality video taken by digital still cameras and cellphones.

My point stands that the majority of people DO NOT own those types of cameras. And my point still stands that the majority of video from digital still cameras and cellphones is NOT edited in any form or fashion. You want proof? Go spend 5 minutes at youtube.

I mean, honestly, this part of your post did have me literally laughing out loud. Your attempt at trying to twist my argument is every bit as idiotic as your statement about Windows users not upgrading.

[mosx]

You have not proved iWeb and Garageband are useless. (see number 2). Obviously it will be difficult to prove seeing as not only are there user groups all over the world but professional musicians who are using Garageband too.

Heh, prove it. Not some washed up 1 hit wonder band from the 90s either. You can drive around southern California or Las Vegas and find more bands with indie contracts or their own professionally pressed CDs with large followings that will NOT touch Garageband than those "professional musicians" who do use Garageband.

As I said before, for less than the cost of a MacBook with a DVD writer, you can get professional level equipment and a PC comparable to a Mac Pro.

You have agreed that Vista doesn't ship with DVD decoders on all versions built in. Can you prove they all come with some third party compatible suite and that it has no compatibility problems?

You're ignoring other things I said. Again, twisting the details in ridiculously stupid fashion.

Every version of Vista that a home user would want ships with a DVD decoder. As for computers loaded with Home Basic, every computer I see with Home Basic on newegg.com and walmart.com currently ships with a DVD player of some sort. For Vista Business, that is up to the manufacturer to include one. Generally, Dell and HP include full multi-media suites for their business line because they know that there are a large number of people who travel with those computers.

Also, every modern piece of DVD playing software on Windows is now DXVA compatible ;) So even if you go pick up a cheap $399 notebook from Wal-Mart and it has nvidia or AMD/ATI integrated graphics, you get full hardware support out of your video playback.

Please explain to me how a 3rd party DVD player can cause compatibility issues? haha. I find that funny. If 3rd party DVD players caused problems, Cyberlink, Intervideo/Corel, and many others would have been out of business way back in the 90s. I've never heard of or seen a 3rd party DVD player causing problems. Never.

You state that Mac users are elitist, foolish and look down on people and Apple fanboys and some PC users are they are just as ignorant as the average Mac user. These comments are designed to stir up an off topic emotional response and are therefore - trolling. The fact that you keep doing it - and getting the same response means you are aware you are doing it.

Stating a fact is not trolling.

You implied that Windows pre-installed apps were inferior when you said "its just not publicized because, quite honestly, nobody uses them". You only implied - so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you that one.
Where as people really are using iApps.

Again, you're twisting things and completely ignoring many things I said.

Once again, people DO NOT use the "iApps". Prove that they do.

Second, you ignored a very significant point that I made. When it comes to video editing, any respectable digital video camera WILL ship with editing software that is far superior to iMovie and iDVD. It will ship with the FULL version and it will be FREE. As I pointed out, even my now 4 year old PCI TV tuner that I had used in desktops shipped with full versions of uLead video editing and DVD making software. Full versions. And that card was only $60 back in 2004.

So, as I said and you ignored, why would people use low quality built-in apps like iMovie or iDVD or DVD Maker or Movie Maker when their DV cam ships with higher quality software?

Why would someone use iWeb to make a website when you have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get it to work on host that is NOT Mobile Me?

Why would a respectable musician who cares about the quality of their music (sound quality and overall quality) buy a MacBook for Garageband when, for less than the cost of that MacBook, they could get a professional level setup?

I showed that lots of people have downgraded from Vista, you showed a continued lack of knowledge for how surveys work.

You showed that a handful of people on a forum or two downgraded. You didn't show any real evidence that a large number of people downgraded. Even if that outrageously large and inaccurate number of 30% downgraded, that still leaves 182m (of that 260m figure you gave) using Vista. Thats still more than 7x as many people using Vista than there are using Macs total (according to the last time Apple gave the number of Mac owners out there).

You can make fun of people downgrading Vista all you want. It makes Apple look foolish when they do that and it makes the people who quote those statistics look foolish. Why? Because as much as you make fun of Microsoft "failing" when 30% of people want to use XP (not a real number anyway) over Vista, that does NOT change the fact that for every ONE Mac user there is SEVEN people using Vista.

I quote you a survey about people downgrading - thus OEMs continue to offer XP on a range of machines up to 2.5 years after Vista was released. I even quoted your beloved HP on this who said they were offering it on a range of machines not just business PCs. It's a supply and demand thing. Lots of people downgrading meant OEM's exploit a loophole in their MS contracts and sell XP but under a Vista license (LOL).

Yeah. You quoted HP as saying they still offered XP on their gaming systems. At the time that person supposedly made those remarks, HP only offered XP on one very low-end consumer notebook (that cost around $400) and one very low-end consumer desktop.

They only offer XP on a small number of business units now.

Very few companies offer XP on a very small number of systems.

And again, as I said, using this kind of argument "against" Vista is absolutely hilarious and makes those who use it look extremely foolish. Even if that high number was accurate, that still does not change the fact that there are 7 Vista users for every one Mac user.

Companies with monopolistic convictions are not offering choice. Thats why they have been convicted.
People are not choosing XP because they think how lucky that MS gave them the choice .... They're choosing it because they think Vista is crap or not worth the upgrade. Now that is laughable. This is another argument that you tried to twist but I'm afraid you lose again.

Again, this is silly. You're trying to say Vista is crap because some rogue forum or website claims 30% of people "downgraded" to XP? Are you serious?

I hate to sound like a broken record here, but that doesn't change the fact that there are more than 7x as many people using Vista than there are Mac users total.

When you sell 260m of something, there are bound to be people who don't like it no matter what. It's human nature.

Even when you sell Apple's numbers, there are bound to be people who don't like it. The difference is that Apple's followers are VERY vocal and like to silence those who speak out against Apple.

Anyway, you're not in any position to call Microsoft a monopoly considering Apple's recent moves. Look at how they treat apps on the App Store. Look how they still lock music from iTunes into the iPod and how they've locked the iPod and iPhone into iTunes. Look how they actively lock the iPhone, against US laws, into a service agreement with AT&T. Apple is more controlling and monopolistic than Microsoft ever was.

The difference here is that the Apple fans applaud it. If Apple had the same marketshare as Microsoft and tried to use these tactics, I can guarantee you Apple would have already run into at least the same legal trouble. Microsoft got in trouble for bundling IE. With Apple's lock-in tactics, can you imagine how much trouble they would be in? It's only a matter of time before someone with money, whether it be a private user or a group of businesses or content creators, someone will step up and challenge Apple's ways of locking people, devices, and material in (or out of the App Store).

You did not to prove that Vista runs faster than XP. (don't forget to ask all 260 million licenses)

So somehow, benchmarks performed by respectable websites with links I provided are not valid?

You agree that you didn't do much research (playing in an Apple store and buying into hype isn't research). And I still say - considering features that were important to you - like a large screen, card reader and games. I can understand you not noticing one of these - but all of them.

Sigh. Again, you're twisting things I said and ignoring others.

I used Macs all throughout junior high and high school in the 90s. I have several friends who have Macs. Outside of school, I easily logged 100 hours or so of use with OS X dating back from 10.0 (my girlfriend at that time had an iBook with it) all the way up to Tiger when I bought my MacBook.

What turned me off to the Mac was the fact that OS X DOES randomly crash (I didn't get enough individual use on systems to see this for myself, though I read a lot about it online.. but those posts and remarks were always silenced by Apple fanboys as someone doing something wrong, so I believed that). After I realized OS X wasn't as good as everyone made it out to be, thats when I realized I got ripped off on the hardware.

I bought my MacBook thinking that I was going to be getting this fantastic software experience that was second to none. I had good experiences with OS X up to that point and every Apple fanboy out there makes their voice heard above the naysayers, so you only hear good things.

Then I found out the harsh reality and realized just how much better hardware I could have gotten, seeing as how the software truly wasn't any better than Windows.

Why buy for software when the software really isn't that good? Better to buy better hardware.

You admit you were stupid and in your opinion made a mistake. That's fair enough we all make them.

Buying a Mac for OS X and the included software is a mistake. Thats a fact. Not an opinion.

Viruses etc are still a major problem - otherwise they wouldn't exist. Just because you've never had one doesn't mean it's not true. If I google Vista viruses well over 3,00,000 web pages about it, are indexed. Apparently malware is down 60% on Vista - but that's still a lot of malware.

Because using a general term to google represents the overall number of real threats?

I can google "Mac Crash" and get 800,000 results. What does that tell you? Absolutely nothing considering nearly all of the results I had were completely unrelated to Macs crashing. Much the same way nearly all of the results for "Vista Viruses" lead to people asking questions about potential virus threats under Vista. Nice try and fail though.

On a side note I was just reading reviews (very recent) of Vista. One person acclaimed Vista for being great, he'd had no problems what so ever installing. He had been forced however to turned off "User Account Control" as it had stopped Outlook working but otherwise everything was dandy.

In reply to this and the previous reply:

Since you're in a googling mood, you might want to google that story about how UAC blocked every single "Rootkit" installation attempt.

The only way you can get a virus or any form of malware on Vista or XP SP2/3 is to go to a malicious site, actively download the file against all of the warnings Windows/IE/FF give you, install it despite the warnings from Windows, and run it while overriding all of the security in Windows.

If you say otherwise then you prove that you do not have any experience with Windows.

Although I spoke to my brother-in-law about his HP pavillion laptop - its about 6 months old. Apparently he doesn't like to leave it on his lap for long because it gets too hot. He says it is far better on a table. Although he did say it improved since he downgraded to XP.

Thats funny, because Vista has better built-in hardware controls. It's better about running the CPU and other components at lower clock speeds which result in lower heat.

IT also has proper cooling. Meaning it takes air in at the hottest point and blows it out the back. There is literally no spot for it to get as hot as a MacBook or MacBook Pro or MacBook Air does.

Considering your other comments in this thread and others, as well as your methods of twisting arguments and downright complete dishonesty, I question the honesty of this remark.

Can you please cite a freeware example of what you're talking about. I've found menus so easy to create in iDVD that I'd love to see a Windows freeware program that does it easier and creates as professional of a result.

Heh. No offense, but if you think iDVD produces professional results then your standards are quite low. ;)

What you didn't say that Windows acts the exact same way (where the responsibility of removing user preferences upon uninstall is left to the application), and in addition, those orphaned preferences consume system memory.

So I'm assuming the last time you used Windows was uh.. 1993? Applications fully uninstall themselves these days. Sometimes a rogue registry entry will get left behind. But ccleaner takes care of that.

The MacBook forums show none of that activity currently, so I wouldn't call that a current real problem. What criteria are you using to call it a real problem.

Haven't been to www.apple.com/support lately?

Likewise, you're ignoring the multi-thread page here in this forum thats relatively new and talking about palmrest cracking.

The point was your unqualified statement that "On PC notebooks you just power down, remove the battery, loosen a single screw and pull the drive out", and that Apple's design is "stupid", but you fail to mention that the same "stupid" design is just now starting to be adopted by some high-end PC notebook manufacturers.

Ah but see, you're still missing the point.

If you go look at those PCs with slot loaders, like the Gateway T Series, it is still user serviceable. It can still be removed by the user by loosening a screw or two. It is NOT integrated into the case.

My point still stands that VERY FEW PCs actually have their slot loading drives integrated into the case.

The majority of PCs that do use slot loaders have it set up the same way as they do their tray loaders. The user can replace it without performing surgery.

Threads with you are fun. You start out making very broad statements that are typically not totally accurate, and as people start to point out in the inaccuracies, you spin

I don't spin anything. It's generally the Mac users who don't like hearing the truth. Or they go off on dishonest rants and ignore facts and spin facts such as the post above yours.

The best spins are when you reply to a fact with your subjective opinion and then precede to act like everyone else on the fact of the planet shares your thoughts.

I post no opinion.

Everything I say, like Vista software using less CPU time than OS X software, or Vista being faster, or Windows in general having technology that OS X doesn't.. thats a fact.

[Dybbuk]

Serious question, mosx; are you a Mac user? While you do speak a lot of truth, there is a little bit of trolling in your posts. ;)

[frogcat]

X

[frogcat]

Mosx I just want to point out two things that you're getting wrong. Otherwise, your other arguments I don't want to reply because I like PC's.

(1) A lot of these "facts" about the iLife software are still subjective. Your professional media friends love their windows software because it's what they are familiar with. There are teenagers that work on garageband and love it. They very well might be the next greatest musicians. Garageband is a start, and that's all it is. If Apple wanted to market that to professional musicans, then they would not be promoting Logic or Live. It's the same for iMovie: man, there's Final Cut Pro. And also, those professional programs your friends use; those are thousands of dollars. I have Acid Pro 5 and 6 for my windows machine, and they cost me a grand. Garageband comes with the mac, user-friendly, and pretty too. (Personally, I use Reason on my mac).

(2) Another "fact" to you that is subjective is the short-cut keys. I find Apple's implementation of the alt-tab key more "logical." In windows you use it to flip through the windows of each application. However, in OSX, it logically breaks it down for you:

Whereas Cmd-Tab is to move through each application,

Then Cmd~ is to move through the windows of the open application.

It makes common sense to separate two completely different functions.

[andyr2120]

Radiohead, Oasis, and Justice. Three bands that have had their careers either go downhill greatly over the last decade or are completely unknown. That basically proves MY point. Besides that song for "Romeo + Juliet" 12 years ago, what else has Radiohead ever been known for? What has Oasis ever been known for?


Radiohead is widely considered to be the best band in the world, even though that would be a ridiculous claim to argue in this forum (any forum, really). You might want to turn the lights down, grab a tasty beverage and give them a listen one day. Surely your Zune has enough space for a few more tracks?

[Drumjim85]

mosx- all of your musician friends use emu or m-audio hardware with protools hd??
Please tell me which emu interface can run any version of protools..
And which m-audio interface can run HD (or even LE for that matter)

[andrewdale]

Don't feel like quoting it, but PCs are not the industry standard for professional audio recording.

The greats of the industry know and understand that Pro Tools HD runs at its best on a Mac Pro. Using a laptop to run Pro Tools is like using a skillet to make tea. (Maybe not quite, but you get the point.)

REAL professional recording engineers aren't going to use M-Audio or EMU.

Just no. The fidelity is just terrible.

[Drumjim85]

Don't feel like quoting it, but PCs are not the industry standard for professional audio recording.

The greats of the industry know and understand that Pro Tools HD runs at its best on a Mac Pro. Using a laptop to run Pro Tools is like using a skillet to make tea. (Maybe not quite, but you get the point.)

REAL professional recording engineers aren't going to use M-Audio or EMU.

Just no. The fidelity is just terrible.

laptops can run protools just fine... but its impossible to get a laptop to run HD.. (unless theres an express slot adapter that allows you to hook up PCIe cards)

and yes, real professionals aren't going to be using converters that cost $500

[Chappers]

Heh, prove it. Not some washed up 1 hit wonder band from the 90s either. You can drive around southern California or Las Vegas and find more bands with indie contracts or their own professionally pressed CDs with large followings that will NOT touch Garageband than those "professional musicians" who do use Garageband.
I have and will continue to do so.

You're ignoring other things I said. Again, twisting the details in ridiculously stupid fashion. I'm twisting nothing. I originally asked you if all versions of Vista had a DVD player pre-installed.
You said they don't. Asking about compatibility of third party players seems to be the logical thing to do - its called research. If I ever upgrade my XP machine or replace it - I want to make the right choice. ;).


Stating a fact is not trolling.
You once said
Theres no "bashing" or "trolling" going on when you're simply stating facts. If i was "trolling" or "bashing" I would be saying things like "haha Mac OS X SUCKS". But you don't see me doing that, do you?
Calling mac users elitist, idiots and fools who look down on people is therefore trolling. (and thats not the complete list of insults you've used here).

Again, you're twisting things and completely ignoring many things I said.
How can I be twisting things when I'm basically agreeing with you
Quote: Chappers
You implied that Windows pre-installed apps were inferior when you said "its just not publicized because, quite honestly, nobody uses them". You only implied - so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you that one.
.

Once again, people DO NOT use the "iApps". Prove that they do.
I have - user groups for both iWeb and GB around the world, professional bands, photographer etc etc and no you don't need MobileMe. Apple even explains how to publish your iWebsite without it, and its not difficult.

Second, you ignored a very significant point that I made. When it comes to video editing, any respectable digital video camera WILL ship with editing software that is far superior to iMovie and iDVD. It will ship with the FULL version and it will be FREE. As I pointed out, even my now 4 year old PCI TV tuner that I had used in desktops shipped with full versions of uLead video editing and DVD making software. Full versions. And that card was only $60 back in 2004.
I didn't ignore this point for any other reason than it is irrelevant to the fact that you can use iMovie. Its all part of the integrated suite thing. They are compatible with each other. If a user however choses to use other software they can of course.

So, as I said and you ignored, why would people use low quality built-in apps like iMovie or iDVD or DVD Maker or Movie Maker when their DV cam ships with higher quality software?
Personal choice I guess

Why would someone use iWeb to make a website when you have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get it to work on host that is NOT Mobile Me?
Explain the hoops to me and back them up - please don't tell me that you and all your friends know there are hoops.

]Why would a respectable musician who cares about the quality of their music (sound quality and overall quality) buy a MacBook for Garageband when, for less than the cost of that MacBook, they could get a professional level setup?
I've never said anyone would use a MB and GB. Please don't twist that. I would say that Oasis and Radiohead with combined album sales of 75 million fit the "respectable" musician part but I don't know what Macs they use.

You showed that a handful of people on a forum or two downgraded. You didn't show any real evidence that a large number of people downgraded. Even if that outrageously large and inaccurate number of 30% downgraded, that still leaves 182m (of that 260m figure you gave) using Vista. Thats still more than 7x as many people using Vista than there are using Macs total (according to the last time Apple gave the number of Mac owners out there).
Just because there are more Vista users than Mac users - didn't prove you right last month and nothing has changed this month. I also didn't quote forums (another twist from you) I quoted PC websites. You have quoted you and your friends and nothing else.

You can make fun of people downgrading Vista all you want. It makes Apple look foolish when they do that and it makes the people who quote those statistics look foolish. Why? Because as much as you make fun of Microsoft "failing" when 30% of people want to use XP (not a real number anyway) over Vista, that does NOT change the fact that for every ONE Mac user there is SEVEN people using Vista.
I am not making fun of people downgrading - I think it's sad to be honest.
Repeating the "more Vista than Mac users" argument still doesn't prove your argument.

Yeah. You quoted HP as saying they still offered XP on their gaming systems. At the time that person supposedly made those remarks, HP only offered XP on one very low-end consumer notebook (that cost around $400) and one very low-end consumer desktop.
When you don't know when the comment was made by HP and by whom (you don't even know if its a man or woman) - how can you possibly know what they were selling at the time.

They only offer XP on a small number of business units now.
Still offering it in a loophole - good news.

Very few companies offer XP on a very small number of systems.
More good news

And again, as I said, using this kind of argument "against" Vista is absolutely hilarious and makes those who use it look extremely foolish. Even if that high number was accurate, that still does not change the fact that there are 7 Vista users for every one Mac user.
Its still not proving your point. People aren't happy - MS have admitted they're worried by this. Must be very worried - $300 million advertising campaign.

Again, this is silly. You're trying to say Vista is crap because some rogue forum or website claims 30% of people "downgraded" to XP? Are you serious?
I quoted a source - it explained its article and the survey. Of course you believe you and your friends.

I hate to sound like a broken record here, but that doesn't change the fact that there are more than 7x as many people using Vista than there are Mac users total.
That is the forth time and guess what - you still haven't proved your argument.

When you sell 260m of something, there are bound to be people who don't like it no matter what. It's human nature.
Obviously - and its enough to worry MS

Even when you sell Apple's numbers, there are bound to be people who don't like it. The difference is that Apple's followers are VERY vocal and like to silence those who speak out against Apple.
Hypocrite ;) That one did make me smile.

Anyway, you're not in any position to call Microsoft a monopoly considering Apple's recent moves. Look at how they treat apps on the App Store. Look how they still lock music from iTunes into the iPod and how they've locked the iPod and iPhone into iTunes. Look how they actively lock the iPhone, against US laws, into a service agreement with AT&T. Apple is more controlling and monopolistic than Microsoft ever was.
Have Apple done anything illegal - no. I can put music from any number of sources on the iPod. As for the rest of the argument - I know nothing of American law. I hate to sound sarcastic - you seem to know everything about how business works (from large corps - to small business) - The music industry and now law (and this aspect of law is highly complex and specialised)


The difference here is that the Apple fans applaud it. If Apple had the same marketshare as Microsoft and tried to use these tactics, I can guarantee you Apple would have already run into at least the same legal trouble. Microsoft got in trouble for bundling IE. With Apple's lock-in tactics, can you imagine how much trouble they would be in? It's only a matter of time before someone with money, whether it be a private user or a group of businesses or content creators, someone will step up and challenge Apple's ways of locking people, devices, and material in (or out of the App Store).
Obviously you know something that others do not.

So somehow, benchmarks performed by respectable websites with links I provided are not valid?
Checked your posts in response to my arguments - you have never posted any links. You do quote "you - your friends and everyone you know"


Sigh. Again, you're twisting things I said and ignoring others.
I used Macs all throughout junior high and high school in the 90s. I have several friends who have Macs. Outside of school, I easily logged 100 hours or so of use with OS X dating back from 10.0 (my girlfriend at that time had an iBook with it) all the way up to Tiger when I bought my MacBook.
Most people are not experiencing these crashes you talk about - I used to under MACOS 9 etc but not now. Sorry but people would flock away not to Mac if you were right.

Then I found out the harsh reality and realized just how much better hardware I could have gotten, seeing as how the software truly wasn't any better than Windows.
Why buy for software when the software really isn't that good? Better to buy better hardware.
Personal choice and opinion - nothing wrong with that.

Because using a general term to google represents the overall number of real threats?
I can google "Mac Crash" and get 800,000 results. What does that tell you? Absolutely nothing considering nearly all of the results I had were completely unrelated to Macs crashing. Much the same way nearly all of the results for "Vista Viruses" lead to people asking questions about potential virus threats under Vista. Nice try and fail though.
Can't argue with that - but those virus's are still there for your system and enough people are unwise enough to get fed up with the quirks of Vista's questions and turn off the system that is designed to protect them.


Thats funny, because Vista has better built-in hardware controls. It's better about running the CPU and other components at lower clock speeds which result in lower heat.
IT also has proper cooling. Meaning it takes air in at the hottest point and blows it out the back. There is literally no spot for it to get as hot as a MacBook or MacBook Pro or MacBook Air does.
Considering your other comments in this thread and others, as well as your methods of twisting arguments and downright complete dishonesty, I question the honesty of this remark.
He said his leg gets hot - when he comes home again - I'll have a play with his HP.

Don't get personal and nasty - it's not very polite.

[polaris20]

Mosx, I am not going to quote your windbag of a post, but the GarageBand thing? I was referring using interfaces such as Apogee, M-Audio, or Echo, not the onboard sound. There are plenty of pro musicians that use it for demoing. No, it's not the final product. But it's a far cry from "useless". To say otherwise is ridiculous. Also, please show me where I recommend using the internal sound card. I don't.

I have been doing audio recording on computers for over 10 years now, and I do believe I know a thing or two about it. I've used Cubase, Sonar (back to when it was still Cakewalk Pro Audio 7), Tracktion, and Reaper. GarageBand is a great tool, and sounds great with a good interface.

The TiBook; actually I am running Tracktion on it, as well as Office. Is that modern enough for you?

Because it doesn't have iWeb or Garageband? Well, as I proved, iWeb is useless without Mobile Me. Show me websites not hosted by Mobile Me that were made with iWeb. Respectable sites.

That's hysterical. You didn't prove *****.
iWeb is fine for family websites, and you can post it to any FTP site. You do know what FTP is, right? Therefore, not useless.

Support: HP has taken up to 6 weeks on repairs, and still not gotten it right. I've sent out over 30 laptops in the past 2 years. How many have you sent out? Dell; I had 5 RAID cards in servers go bad in 1 year (spread out over 3 clients), how many did you deal with? Twice as many failed SCSI drives. It also took them 4 visits to fix a tower with their "Gold Support". Yes, Apple is better in support too. You had a bad experience, it happens. But you're one person, with one or two computers. I've dealt with the other manufacturers on a far bigger scale than you have.

PCs built: I've built in the realm of 60 or so; how about you? I go back to DOS days as well. Let me know when the pissing match is over.

As for the install base of Vista that goes back to XP; for God sakes man; read the IT/computer news sites. Vista sucks. It's a flop. Nobody here is gonna spoon feed a troll like you when the information is a Google search away. It's painfully obvious.

Apple is not perfect. Obviously there are problems in certain areas, and they need to be fixed. But what it comes down to is that people here like OSX, and still like Macs. If they don't, and they continue to post here and try to prove everyone wrong all the time, guess what? They just look like trolls. Especially when someone like you starts posting opinions as facts, which is absolute laughable crap.

But continue posting, Mosx. I have fun reading your posts, because at least you're a funny troll. :D

[polaris20]

Percentage of users downgrading from Vista to XP:

http://weblog.infoworld.com/sentinel/archives/2008/08/bursting_the_vi.html

And the remainder probably just don't know they can downgrade, or don't know how (average home users).

As for the benchmarks, I'd be happy to provide you with a comprehensive test once I get my MacBook, Vista vs. XP vs. OSX vs. Ubuntu vs. SuSe vs. Fedora. What apps would you like me to use?

I'll be getting the book as soon as the new ones come out. Please let me know, Mosx.

Otherwise, do a search of the Geekbench db for current benchmarks.

[Chappers]

I only sound like a troll to those who can't stand hearing the truth ;)

You're a troll because you are deliberately rude to people as you have been to a number of people and that has nothing to do with anything but your rudeness.

Apple doesn't like DRM? Heh. You've never heard of the iTunes Music Store, right? More DRM than any other music store or source of music on the planet. How about the App Store, where Apple rejects apps for whatever reason they wish?

I think you're getting desperate now - are you the only person in the universe who doesn't know the history of this.

Never used the previous version of iMovie? There was a huge outcry here and at other Apple forums when iMovie '08 was released. So much so that it forced Apple to make the previous version available for download for all who wanted ot use it.

Old news there - so they listened to their customers and provided old iMovie.

I've had mixed results with both companies. With Apple I've had people who obviously speak Spanish as a first language (which makes me wonder if they're in this country legally) and with HP I've sometimes been connected with someone in the US on the first try. It's about 50/50 with both companies.

You are finally showing your true colours. With this type of ignorant bigoted posting you embarrass yourself.


You're completely overlooking the fact that the majority of those PCs are in countries where the people simply cannot afford to upgrade their hardware to a level that can run Vista. Nearly all of these PCs are running hardware that was high end around the time XP was launched, maybe even weaker.

It's completely idiotic to make that kind of comparison when the vast majority of those PCs simply cannot run Vista (nor would an equally as old Mac be able to run Leopard) and those PCs are generally in areas where they cannot be upgraded because of economic/money issues.

This is patronising at best but continues the ignorance theme quite nicely.



And like I said before, if the software and hardware are both working the way the business needs and wants them to, why upgrade? Unless you're in content creation and need the latest and greatest hardware, Office really isn't going to run any "better" now than on older hardware. You can still make basic presentations, spreadsheets, pie charts, and type up reports just as good on Office XP as you can on Office 2007. So I say again, if everything is working the way you want it to and need it to, why upgrade?

If you're a small business owner in this economy, every dollar you spend counts. So why should a small business owner spend thousands of dollars upgrading hardware, software, and retraining everyone for what really amounts to no real world productivity increases and no real world profit increases? All mission critical software still runs on XP.

I couldn't agree more. Obviously microsoft haven't provided a compelling enough reason to upgrade.


Because it doesn't have iWeb or Garageband? Well, as I proved, iWeb is useless without Mobile Me. Show me websites not hosted by Mobile Me that were made with iWeb. Respectable sites.

You gave your opinion on iWeb/Garageband but it continues not to prove your argument. Respectable ? Don't make me give you a list of websites made by "respectable" people. I'm happy too - but it's getting embarrassing.

Radiohead, Oasis, and Justice. Three bands that have had their careers either go downhill greatly over the last decade or are completely unknown. That basically proves MY point. Besides that song for "Romeo + Juliet" 12 years ago, what else has Radiohead ever been known for? What has Oasis ever been known for?
By pointing them out, you prove my point perfectly.

Radiohead - 25 million albums sold worldwide. Last album in Rainbows Charted number 1 in USA (Jan 2008)
Oasis - 50 million albums - Resigned with Sony due to popularity resurgence. Last I heard they were on tour in Canada
You so lose that one.

No respectable musician uses Garageband. Even indie bands (many I know of here in southern California and in the Las Vegas area) will not even go near Garageband. Even the hobbyists I know won't go near Garageband.
More of mosx and everyone he knows.

Again, show me respectable sites outside of Mobile Me that were made using iWeb.
Define respectable. iWeb is designed for the home user.

rofl, nice way to try twist things around.
I said that a lot of people do have video functionality on their digital cameras or cellphones. And that people do NOT edit those because they are generally quick and low quality clips. And I did clearly state that the editing done is generally just putting in flying text or something like that to describe the video on youtube.

Its strange that you were so sarcastic over me saying people could use iMovie to edit their movies- you actually said
Because everyone has a video camera, right? Everyone makes home movies all of the time, right?

To which I replied "Actually a huge percentage of people do have video cameras these days (almost all digitals come with one) not forgetting phone video as well" and that you could use iMovie to edit. You bought Virtualdub and YouTube to the table as a defense for not noticing the wide spread access to video. You actually said EVERY video on youtube that has been edited was done by Virtualdub. Clearly not true. You lose again.



iMovie was originally geared towards full blown video cameras. Not low quality video taken by digital still cameras and cellphones.
Thats because when it was created not everyone had video capability as they do today. Learn your history - you lose that too

My point stands that the majority of people DO NOT own those types of cameras. And my point still stands that the majority of video from digital still cameras and cellphones is NOT edited in any form or fashion. You want proof? Go spend 5 minutes at youtube.
This doesn't alter the fact that iMovie can be used. In fact during that 5 minutes I saw many very well edited movies on YouTube. Looks like you're wrong again

I mean, honestly, this part of your post did have me literally laughing out loud. Your attempt at trying to twist my argument is every bit as idiotic as your statement about Windows users not upgrading.

As I have shown I haven't twisted anything - please continue laughing and being rude. I am sad only in that you feel the need to to make unpleasant comments. Not only to you make these comments about me and Mac users in general you have now made nasty comments about a Hispanic person who was trying to help you on a helpline.
So being rude and saying "everyone I know" haven't won you any arguments and keep telling everyone that PC's are cheaper isn't exactly news (we know). It's one hell of a compulsion you have there.

[Dybbuk]

i can't believe how small my scrollbar is

EDIT: of course this would be on a new page

[Cheffy Dave]

All I can say is, I bought a refurbed BMB 2.2 and put 4GB of RAM in it. It IS and has been, the "best" computer I have ever used. It just plain works. IMHO, the 13" MB is the best bang for the buck, and no matter what iteration it appears in, I will always have one by my side. I love the little bugger.:D

[Cheffy Dave]

This isn't worth it, this guy has more issues with things, other than Apple:rolleyes:

[JoeDRC]

Radiohead, Oasis, and Justice. Three bands that have had their careers either go downhill greatly over the last decade or are completely unknown. That basically proves MY point. Besides that song for "Romeo + Juliet" 12 years ago, what else has Radiohead ever been known for? What has Oasis ever been known for?

By pointing them out, you prove my point perfectly.

No respectable musician uses Garageband. Even indie bands (many I know of here in southern California and in the Las Vegas area) will not even go near Garageband. Even the hobbyists I know won't go near Garageband.




ohhhh you didn't just insult justice did you!

[iMacmatician]

BTW, I'm currently considering this laptop, for all of you Macbook lovers. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8892825&type=product&id=1211587727985 For $1450, it has a 17" screen, and its graphics card leaves the 17" MBP in the dust. 1920 x 1200 resolution, 4GB ram standard, 7200 RPM HDD, ect. It's a Gateway, and yet it has positive reviews everywhere.

Macs are underspecced, period. I can get all those specs for the price of a top-of-the-line Macbook. Who cares about how thin and light the Macbook is? But the MacBook Pro is only one inch thick! That's the definition of a MacBook Pro!!! I don't want a thick and clunky notebook, I want a slim notebook! Because thinness beats specs! In fact, I don't care that the MacBook Pro would lag behind the Gateway, when I can just admire the nice case design while I wait for it to finish a task! The MBP's specs are enough for 99% of pro users, so not only is the MacBook Pro not actually underspecced, but the extra specs of the Gateway are USELESS! HA!

(sarcasm)

[xraydoc]

+1 for post count.

Can we lock this thread now? Its been more derailed than an L.A. commuter train.

[Chappers]

This isn't worth it, this guy has more issues with things, other than Apple:rolleyes:

You are right.

I'm happy with having a discussion but yes you are right.

[mosx]

Here we go again.

This thread needs to be locked. The Apple apologists are getting desperate and are bordering on lying in many instances.

I have and will continue to do so.

You haven't proved anything.

I'm twisting nothing. I originally asked you if all versions of Vista had a DVD player pre-installed.
You said they don't. Asking about compatibility of third party players seems to be the logical thing to do - its called research. If I ever upgrade my XP machine or replace it - I want to make the right choice.

You've deliberately twisted other statements of mine and flat out lied about things I've said. It's truly sad.

As is asking about compatibility issues with third party DVD players. Thats just another very cheap attempt at making Windows look bad. Compatibility issues are essentially a thing of the past. I haven't had any kind of "compatibility issues" since... well, honestly I never had in Windows. I've never heard of any true compatibility issues like those the Apple fans and Apple itself try to bring up. Like a couple of years ago at WWDC "PC" mentioned something about compatibility issues in the video before the keynote speech. What compatibility issues? Let's not forget Leopard's blue screen of death at launch thanks to a third party app. Thats a real compatibility issue ;)

Calling mac users elitist, idiots and fools who look down on people is therefore trolling. (and thats not the complete list of insults you've used here).

You're free to believe whatever you wish, even if it is false.

I have - user groups for both iWeb and GB around the world, professional bands, photographer etc etc and no you don't need MobileMe. Apple even explains how to publish your iWebsite without it, and its not difficult.

Your "iWebsite"?

I have yet to see any respectable sites not hosted by Mobile Me/.mac that were made and published with iWeb.

I also have yet to see any respectable musician, professional or otherwise, use Garageband. So you still have yet to prove your points.

I didn't ignore this point for any other reason than it is irrelevant to the fact that you can use iMovie. Its all part of the integrated suite thing. They are compatible with each other. If a user however choses to use other software they can of course.

Why would anyone choose to use iMovie over a superior product? Why would any logical person switch to a Mac for the iLife apps when the Windows apps that ship with their DV cam, photo printers, and other products are superior to those in the iLife suite?

Explain the hoops to me and back them up - please don't tell me that you and all your friends know there are hoops.

Going in and modifying the code to publish on a different server. iWeb is all about the one click publishing to Mobile Me. When you don't use that you have to go in and edit the code to be able to work with a different host. You have to first publish the site to a folder and then go in and upload everything manually and change the code to reflect the directory listings and host you're using.

I've never said anyone would use a MB and GB. Please don't twist that.

All Macs use the same integrated sound processors based of the Intel HD Audio spec, so it doesn't really matter if its a MacBook or Mac Pro.

I would say that Oasis and Radiohead with combined album sales of 75 million fit the "respectable" musician part but I don't know what Macs they use.

So I guess Britney Spears is a respectable musician? I mean, she did sell over 80 million albums worldwide.

The thing with music is that its ridiculously cheap ($10 CD) and any idiot can make something that appeals to a mass of people. That doesn't make them good or "respectable".

By your logic, 50 Cent is a respectable musician as well.

Just because there are more Vista users than Mac users - didn't prove you right last month and nothing has changed this month. I also didn't quote forums (another twist from you) I quoted PC websites. You have quoted you and your friends and nothing else.

You didn't quote anything respectable. And quite honestly, every single thing you've said has been nothing more than typical Mac user drivel that any PC user with common sense knows is false.

I am not making fun of people downgrading - I think it's sad to be honest.
Repeating the "more Vista than Mac users" argument still doesn't prove your argument.

Why is it sad? People are using what they want and need. At least they have the choice of what software to run on the hardware they want. They can buy whatever hardware fits their needs and run whatever software fits their needs. They're not told they have to buy THIS hardware with THIS software or nothing.

When you don't know when the comment was made by HP and by whom (you don't even know if its a man or woman) - how can you possibly know what they were selling at the time.

How can I possibly know what HP was selling? Well, because I help several people per week buy new computer hardware so I regularly check sites like hp.com, Dell.com, gateway.com, ibuypower.com, newegg.com, etc. Ever since Vista was released, HP has ONLY sold XP on very low end hardware and not until well after Vista was released. They never sold it on high end hardware and they never sold it on their mainstream consumer lines after Vista's release. Their business line only has it on a limited number of machines with very few options.

But again, at least they have that choice.

Still offering it in a loophole - good news.

If it was a true loophole that Microsoft was so "scared" of, don't you think they would have closed it by now? All EULAs have wording that state that the agreement can change at any time. So Microsoft really could change their agreements and contracts. It's not that difficult.

But unlike Apple, Microsoft sees that its actually a good thing to offer customers what they want.

Its still not proving your point. People aren't happy - MS have admitted they're worried by this. Must be very worried - $300 million advertising campaign.

The $300m advertising campaign is to repair their image. Their image has been damaged mostly by ignorant media outlets and fans alternative products who really don't know what they're talking about.

I quoted a source - it explained its article and the survey. Of course you believe you and your friends.

Because, again, 800 or 3,000 people somehow represent hundreds of millions?

That is the forth time and guess what - you still haven't proved your argument.

Only in your eyes have I not proven my argument.

Using the "downgrade" argument against Vista is just flat out stupid. People have legitimate reasons for wanting XP over Vista, as I explained in my previous posts. Trying to say Vista is bad because people prefer something else is just flat out stupid and trying to use that argument against Vista is, again, stupid. Especially considering that there are more than 7x the people using Vista than there are Macs in total.

You know what else is funny? I've read here and at other forums "people only use Vista because they weren't given a choice". I find that funny because I've seen quite a few posts here and at Apple's support forums asking how to install Tiger on new hardware. People aren't given a choice on Macs at all. But at least you can go buy a Vista PC and install whatever software on it you want.

Hypocrite That one did make me smile.

Heh, excuse me? See, this is just getting stupid. I didn't contradict myself in any way. There are always bound to be people who don't like things no matter what. There are people at this forum who do not like Leopard (one major poster that goes by the name of "Cassie" if I remember correctly). But there are those who would want Tiger for legitimate purposes. The same way people want XP for legitimate purposes.

Please stop being foolish.

Have Apple done anything illegal - no. I can put music from any number of sources on the iPod. As for the rest of the argument - I know nothing of American law. I hate to sound sarcastic - you seem to know everything about how business works (from large corps - to small business) - The music industry and now law (and this aspect of law is highly complex and specialised)

Microsoft got in trouble for integrating IE into Windows 98. Thats all they got in trouble for.

Let's look at what Apple has done, shall we? Sure you can take music from any number of sources and put it on the iPod, as long as its unencrypted or purchased from iTunes. But you can't manage it with other software any more. Every iPod that is capable of playing video released in 2007 and beyond requires video accessories that have special authentication chips that have to be purchased from Apple. They essentially broke thousands of video accessories that were made for the last two years prior to that move. So you're locked in to buying Apple made or authorized accessories.

Now the big one. The iPhone. Under the DMCA it is LEGAL to unlock a phone to be able to use it on whatever carrier you wish. Apple, however, fights these LEGAL efforts to keep the phone locked to a single carrier with over priced plans and forcing users into multi-year agreements.

Theres also other little things Apple has done. Look at the Leopard EULA. Can only be installed on an Apple branded computer? Hah. Look at what they did with the iPod games too. Prior to last years iPod revisions, if you had bought any iPod games you had to go and repurchase the new point revision (1.0 to 1.1) to be able to use them on your new hardware. Ridiculous.

Heres another one I like. Apple likes to twist and interpret laws in ways they were not meant to be used to charge users for upgrades. For example, the iPod touch upgrades. There is not a single law on the books that says they have to charge for the iPod touch upgrades. Microsoft and Sony give free software upgrades to PSP, PS3, and Xbox360 owners. You could buy any one of their consoles and you'd get free upgrades even if you never bought a game or subscribed to anything. Yet Apple tries to say they have to charge. Better yet, the Zune (even the old 30GB now) gets major software upgrades for free. Last year the original Zune got the same software features as the then new Zune. Wireless syncing (why don't the iPod touch and the iPhone have this) and a completely new UI. Now, the original Zune and last years Zune get another major upgrade that brings even more new features to the table. All of it free. What does Apple do? You want new features you buy the new hardware or pay for the software upgrade. They only do it because they can, not because they have to. I see no reason why my 80GB 5.5G iPod couldn't have gotten that UI revision last year. It was only 6 months old by that time. Or why couldn't that same iPod plus my barely 1 year old 3G 8GB iPod nano get the "Genius" features? Microsoft would have given it to me. In fact, Microsoft DID give that feature to their Zune buyers. But if you want it in an iPod you have to pay one way or another.

Long story short, Apple is more monopolistic than Microsoft ever was.

Most people are not experiencing these crashes you talk about - I used to under MACOS 9 etc but not now. Sorry but people would flock away not to Mac if you were right.

Oh no they wouldn't. Look at the problems people here have. People deal with all kinds of stupid things here. I've read stories of people going through 3 or 4 motherboard replacements in their MacBook Pro and then after its all done "I'd still rather have this than a PC!".

The Apple fanboys will take whatever Apple gives them.

Can't argue with that - but those virus's are still there for your system and enough people are unwise enough to get fed up with the quirks of Vista's questions and turn off the system that is designed to protect them.

Someone who has actually had experience with Vista will tell you that UAC only shows itself as often as the password prompt in OS X. People won't get tired of something they hardly ever see.

Support: HP has taken up to 6 weeks on repairs, and still not gotten it right. I've sent out over 30 laptops in the past 2 years. How many have you sent out?

I've dealt with 3 HPs of my own and 2 MacBooks. I've had to send 2 of those HPs out for repair and both MacBooks.

HP? First one went out for repair. Less than a week after sending it out I had the replacement in my hand. Same with the second one. Both MacBooks took 3 weeks each and a combined total of 5 trips out to the facility to finally get things done right.

Yes, Apple is better in support too.

Sure they are. Thats why their phone support closes in a few minutes versus HP's being open 24/7.

Percentage of users downgrading from Vista to XP:

http://weblog.infoworld.com/sentinel...ng_the_vi.html

Good job posting a link to an article that does absolutely nothing to show how they got that number.

As for the benchmarks, I'd be happy to provide you with a comprehensive test once I get my MacBook, Vista vs. XP vs. OSX vs. Ubuntu vs. SuSe vs. Fedora. What apps would you like me to use?

I'll be getting the book as soon as the new ones come out. Please let me know, Mosx.

Feel free to do whatever you wish. I've already tested my MacBook. OS X versus Windows on the same hardware, as well as OS X versus Windows on my HP's hardware.

And the remainder probably just don't know they can downgrade, or don't know how (average home users).

Why wouldn't they know how? Because the average user is stupid?

I think you're getting desperate now - are you the only person in the universe who doesn't know the history of this

History of what? Apple CHOOSES to be the gate keeper with the App Store.

With music DRM, people can blame the record labels all they want. If Apple wanted DRM to be gone on their music it would be gone. But it locks people into the iPod. People aren't just going to walk away to another player if they've spent even $100 on music at iTunes.

You are finally showing your true colours. With this type of ignorant bigoted posting you embarrass yourself.

Heh, I embarrass myself? Funny, I thought I was the only one who could say how I feel. The only thing I'm embarrassed about is the fact that owning a Mac associates me with people like you.

If you don't like what I have to say then click the ignore button. I'm sorry, but if I call a company and their phone support is located within the US and the person I'm speaking to has a very thick Spanish accent and can barely understand what I'm saying, then I am going to question whether that person is here legally or not. If they are not here legally then they should be sent home. If you don't like that then that is too bad.

This is patronising at best but continues the ignorance theme quite nicely.

Nice way of saying you've lost and you know it.

Obviously microsoft haven't provided a compelling enough reason to upgrade.

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

You know, not everyone has to run out and buy something new all the time. Not everyone thinks the way Apple wants them to or the way Apple fans do. When something new is released you don't have to run out and buy it to have the latest and greatest.

You know, most people in the world actually buy what they NEED and not want they always WANT.

I say again, stop being foolish.

You gave your opinion on iWeb/Garageband but it continues not to prove your argument. Respectable ? Don't make me give you a list of websites made by "respectable" people. I'm happy too - but it's getting embarrassing.

Yes, the way you're acting is getting quite embarrassing. You're giving Mac owners a bad name and, quite frankly, you need to quit.

So feel free to show me some sites that were made with iWeb that are not hosted by Mobile Me.

Radiohead - 25 million albums sold worldwide. Last album in Rainbows Charted number 1 in USA (Jan 2008)
Oasis - 50 million albums - Resigned with Sony due to popularity resurgence. Last I heard they were on tour in Canada
You so lose that one.

And as I said before, going by your logic, Britney Spears is more respectable than either one because she has sold far more than both combined.

You bought Virtualdub and YouTube to the table as a defense for not noticing the wide spread access to video. You actually said EVERY video on youtube that has been edited was done by Virtualdub. Clearly not true. You lose again.

Yet another example of you hearing what you want to hear and choosing to ignore the entire story. I said nearly every user made video on youtube. Not every. You can go and see for yourself. The edits, text, etc. all prove what videos were edited with virtualdub.

I'm sorry you can't accept the truth. But you picking and choosing what you want to hear and trying to put that forward as fact is getting both old and foolish.

Thats because when it was created not everyone had video capability as they do today. Learn your history - you lose that too

Now you're just getting funny. And if everyone wanted iMovie in its current form, there wouldn't have been such a backlash forcing Apple to release that older version, right?

This doesn't alter the fact that iMovie can be used. In fact during that 5 minutes I saw many very well edited movies on YouTube. Looks like you're wrong again

I like how you keep saying "you're wrong". It's becoming painfully obvious that you're just trying to convince yourself that you're right.

Let's ask those uploaders how many of those movies were edited by iMovie, shall we?

Not only to you make these comments about me and Mac users in general you have now made nasty comments about a Hispanic person who was trying to help you on a helpline.

I have nothing against a race of people in general, especially considering I am of mixed background. I do have a problem with someone illegally coming to a country, not paying taxes, and generally living off the fruits of legal residents labor. If you want to come to this country you must do it legally. My ancestors did it and so should they.

And I most certainly did not pay $1406 for a "premium" computer so that part of the profit I have paid the manufacturer can go to fund paychecks of illegal immigrants. I may not like "Indian tech support" but at least they're doing their job legally.

[m1stake]

+1 for post count.

Can we lock this thread now? Its been more derailed than an L.A. commuter train.

Destroyed in the face.

[NT1440]

Can we just wait for the updates before we get into a debate about brand new non apple computers vs the aging pro??

[Drumjim85]

mosx - you totally forget this comment (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=6246923&postcount=69)

care to argue with that?

[TheReef]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidorian
I hope you haven't forgotten the Pismo.

--------
Originally Posted by airjuggernaut
Huh?

The PowerBook G3 Firewire (aka Pismo), had removable drive bays. If your drive dies you can just pull the leaver and the drive slots right out. I wish they continued that feature for todays MacBook Pros.
It also let you install two batteries at once - such a great feature.
I thought about upgrading my PowerBooks drive, as it turns out the drive is the last thing that comes out of the computer haha. Yep, the very last thing, even the body chassis and logic board come out before it.


Apples laptops are "lagging" spec : price wise compared to the competition (but haven't they always:)). It's something I don't really mind, since Dell sell in such high volume they can probably afford it.
I do like how all (cough Air) Macbooks include Firewire, but an express card slot 'would' be really useful especially since rock bottom budget notebooks these days from officeworks seem to have them.

But, the rumours on upcoming competitive pricing sound promising, as NT1440 says no use debating over such issues now, wait and see how things pan out. We may be in for a pleasant surprise as it's been so long since substantial updates.

[mosx]

mosx - you totally forget this comment (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=6246923&postcount=69)

care to argue with that?

Another example of a Mac fan deliberately twisting my words because they don't like hearing the truth.

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=35&langid=100&itemid=4901 thats an interesting product by the way ;)

To all the Apple fans who don't like me:

You may not like what I have to say, and thats fine. Some people just can't stand hearing the truth about products they enjoy or things they support. But just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can deliberately twist words, ignore facts and statements, and do other foolish things to try to "win" the argument and come out on top in a debate. All it does is drag you down and make you look foolish. So stop.

[NT1440]

Another example of a Mac fan deliberately twisting my words because they don't like hearing the truth.

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=35&langid=100&itemid=4901 thats an interesting product by the way ;)

To all the Apple fans who don't like me:

You may not like what I have to say, and thats fine. Some people just can't stand hearing the truth about products they enjoy or things they support. But just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can deliberately twist words, ignore facts and statements, and do other foolish things to try to "win" the argument and come out on top in a debate. All it does is drag you down and make you look foolish. So stop.

I dont know you at all, but let me say this. While you do have some good points as well as some not so good, you do come off as a holier than though i have seen the truth and let me preach it snob. State your business, but do it in a way that doesnt seem like an insult to everyone on these boards.

The same can be said for other members as well, so this isnt a personal attack.


Me personally, i quite enjoy the macbook form factor, but I like what I like.

[iMacmatician]

I dont know you at all, but let me say this. While you do have some good points as well as some not so good, you do come off as a holier than though i have seen the truth and let me preach it snob. State your business, but do it in a way that doesnt seem like an insult to everyone on these boards.But you really can't argue with facts.

[mosx]

I dont know you at all, but let me say this. While you do have some good points as well as some not so good, you do come off as a holier than though i have seen the truth and let me preach it snob. State your business, but do it in a way that doesnt seem like an insult to everyone on these boards.

The same can be said for other members as well, so this isnt a personal attack.


Me personally, i quite enjoy the macbook form factor, but I like what I like.

I don't try to be holier than thou or insult anyone. I just treat people the way they treat me. If someone treats me like crap and then accuses me of doing it, then I'm going to have my way with their argument and prove them wrong.

I do like the MacBook form factor too. The only thing I don't like is that it doesn't have dedicated graphics. If it had dedicated graphics that kept up with what similar PCs were offering, I wouldn't have any real issues with it other than OS X randomly crashing.

[NT1440]

But you really can't argue with facts.

I can request that they (if they are facts) are delivered in a civil way that doesnt reek of the im right and your wrong period tone.

[NT1440]

I don't try to be holier than thou or insult anyone. I just treat people the way they treat me. If someone treats me like crap and then accuses me of doing it, then I'm going to have my way with their argument and prove them wrong.




Can we not be role models and have a turn the other cheek attitude and just continue the discussion in the civilized manner I expect from this forum?


This isnt PRSI, there is no reason for ANYONE to get hostile with each other merely from exchanging their views. (thats to everyone.)

[mosx]

Can we not be role models and have a turn the other cheek attitude and just continue the discussion in the civilized manner I expect from this forum?


This isnt PRSI, there is no reason for ANYONE to get hostile with each other merely from exchanging their views. (thats to everyone.)

I don't get hostile. But if someone is being stupid and acting foolish I'll tell them. Theres no reason to ever hold back what you're thinking and not speak what is on your mind, especially if what you are thinking is either the truth or painfully obvious.

Can the thread be locked now?

[Drumjim85]

And as I said before, you can build a desktop PC with a good E-mu or M-Audio card plus the Pro Tools HD Software package for less than the cost of a MacBook with a DVD writer.



Another example of a Mac fan deliberately twisting my words because they don't like hearing the truth.

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=35&langid=100&itemid=4901 thats an interesting product by the way ;)

To all the Apple fans who don't like me:

You may not like what I have to say, and thats fine. Some people just can't stand hearing the truth about products they enjoy or things they support. But just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can deliberately twist words, ignore facts and statements, and do other foolish things to try to "win" the argument and come out on top in a debate. All it does is drag you down and make you look foolish. So stop.

what did i twist? ...
sure, you can run m-audio products with m-powered protools (but you strictly said HD). and what about EMU? ... you CANT use protools with EMU soundcards.

and what does ANY of this have to do with apple or not?

----
and just for the record, the lowest PT HD system (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PTCoreHD1/) will run you around $7000

[mosx]

what did i twist? ...
sure, you can run m-audio products with m-powered protools (but you strictly said HD). and what about EMU? ... you CANT use protools with EMU soundcards.

and what does ANY of this have to do with apple or not?

----
and just for the record, the lowest PT HD system (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PTCoreHD1/) will run you around $7000

Why don't you link directly to the digidesign site?

Oh you don't want people to see that I'm right?

Pathetic :rolleyes:

Can we please have this thread locked? This is getting sad.

This has to do with Apple based on the fact that you can get professional level equipment and a PC for less than a Mac. Thats what this has to do with Apple.

I'm still waiting for where I supposedly specifically said you use Pro Tools HD with E-Mu or M-Audio.

So please enlighten me.

[Drumjim85]

Why don't you link directly to the digidesign site?

Oh you don't want people to see that I'm right?

Pathetic :rolleyes:

ok fine ... $8000 (http://digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=100&navid=86&itemid=4886)

Can we please have this thread locked? This is getting sad.

This has to do with Apple based on the fact that you can get professional level equipment and a PC for less than a Mac. Thats what this has to do with Apple.

I'm still waiting for where I supposedly specifically said you use Pro Tools HD with E-Mu or M-Audio.

So please enlighten me.


didn't i just quote you a few posts back?

I'm still waiting for you to show me how to get a EMU soundcard to work with any version of PT.

[mosx]

ok fine ... $8000 (http://digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=100&navid=86&itemid=4886)



didn't i just quote you a few posts back?

I'm still waiting for you to show me how to get a EMU soundcard to work with any version of PT.

And what does that link prove? IT has nothing to do with what I said.

I'm still waiting for you to show me where I said that and not your own mis-interpretation of what I said.

[Drumjim85]

And what does that link prove? IT has nothing to do with what I said.

It proves that you can't build a pc, buy a sound card, and get Protools HD for cheaper than a Macbook, or a mac pro for that matter.

[mosx]

It proves that you can't build a pc, buy a sound card, and get Protools HD for cheaper than a Macbook, or a mac pro for that matter.

Guess you skipped over the word "or" in my post you tried to twist to your advantage, eh?

None of this changes the fact that any respectable musician would use a Mac with Garageband. As someone who claims to be an audio engineer, you shouldn't even be on the defending side of Apple. The audio engineers I know won't even go near a Mac.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/SessionwithFastTrackUSB.html

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FastTrackPro.html Thank you for allowing me to prove my point.

[bstreiff]

Yes on any brand.

Not so much.

Replacing the optical drive consists of loosening a single screw on the bottom and simply pulling the drive out. Compared the complete system surgery required by a Mac.

Replacing the optical drive on my Sony Vaio required removing the keyboard (two screws), the top plate (another ten screws), a plate on top of the optical drive (three screws), and then the optical drive from a housing (four screws). In fact, I've never seen a PC laptop that lets you get the optical drive out in just one screw (most have you unscrew a plate to get at that one screw).

Replacing the HDD on a PC generally requires removing two screws and lifting up a cover, giving you full access to the drive. You pull the tab lifting the drive out. Unlike Macs, the casing is held on by standard screws and not some obscure Torx size that can only be found in expensive tool kits.

On the Macbook, it's three phillips-head screws to get to the pull-tabs. On my Vaio, you'd have to do just as much disassembly as you would to get to the optical drive. (I had to do it more than once.)

Upgrading the RAM is the same as the HDD. You generally use your fingernail to lift the metal tabs to the sides and the RAM pops out. Re-inserting the RAM is usually a simple process of sliding in and pushing down.

My roommate had an Acer Ferrari on which you could replace one stick of RAM by lifting off the keyboard and unscrewing a plate. To replace the other stick of RAM you had to disassemble the machine to the point that you were able to remove the motherboard.

Never bothered upgrading the RAM on my Vaio: It used DDR MicroDIMMs, which were 5x the cost of equivalent SO-DIMMs. Hadn't realized that until a while after I bought the machine. **** you, Sony.

To remove the battery for all of these procedures you just need to slide a lock on the bottom to the side. No need for getting a coin out and using it. You just drop the battery back in and it locks back in place.

My Vaio had such a lock. Spring-loaded locks like that easily loosen in a backpack. I ended up having to tape my battery in place in order to use suspend-to-RAM. I'd rather have the rotating lock; I've never needed to change out batteries that often.

I've seen a couple other laptops where the batteries can fall out pretty easily, especially when using a larger high-capacity battery.

So, no, not all PC laptops have the rosy hardware design that you seem to have in mind.

[mosx]

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Session.html

Thats a neat little product too. $50, better than Garageband, works with higher end interfaces and equipment.

Replacing the optical drive on my Sony Vaio required removing the keyboard (two screws), the top plate (another ten screws), a plate on top of the optical drive (three screws), and then the optical drive from a housing (four screws). In fact, I've never seen a PC laptop that lets you get the optical drive out in just one screw (most have you unscrew a plate to get at that one screw).

Well, you are talking about Sony. Sony is essentially Apple of the Windows world. Bad design, low quality components, much higher price tag than the rest.

Every laptop I've ever owned, including HP, is a one screw deal. Loosen the screw on the bottom, pull the drive out, push the new one in, tighten the screw.

On the Macbook, it's three phillips-head screws to get to the pull-tabs. On my Vaio, you'd have to do just as much disassembly as you would to get to the optical drive. (I had to do it more than once.)

You forgot the Torx screws I mentioned. To replace the HDD on the MacBook you have to get a coin to remove the battery, loosen the 3 Philips screws on the "RAM shield", remove that, pull the drive out by the tab, and then you need the odd-sized torx head to remove the screws that hold the metal casing on the HDD. Then after you've swapped the casing, you need to push the drive back in, use a non-magnetic card to slide the tab back in place, put the "RAM shield" back in place, tighten the screws a little, use same card to push the cushions down, fully tighten screws, replace battery using coin to tighten lock. On all of the HPs I've had: Remove battery by sliding lock, remove two screws on a plastic case, lift case, pull HDD out by tab, remove metal casing using standard small Philips screw driver.

My roommate had an Acer Ferrari on which you could replace one stick of RAM by lifting off the keyboard and unscrewing a plate. To replace the other stick of RAM you had to disassemble the machine to the point that you were able to remove the motherboard.

An Acer Ferrari doesn't represent the entire Acer line or the majority of PCs. Currently, the Ferrari line represents their "ultra-portable" line. Its a well known fact that ultra-portables don't follow general standards. The current Ferrari also DOES follow standards.

My Vaio had such a lock. Spring-loaded locks like that easily loosen in a backpack. I ended up having to tape my battery in place in order to use suspend-to-RAM. I'd rather have the rotating lock; I've never needed to change out batteries that often.

I've seen a couple other laptops where the batteries can fall out pretty easily, especially when using a larger high-capacity battery.

So, no, not all PC laptops have the rosy hardware design that you seem to have in mind.

Again, you're talking about Sony. The Apple of the PC world. Bad design, low quality components, overpriced.

All of the notebooks I've had needed a decent amount of force to push the locking switch over the few inches it needed to be to release the battery. Certainly not something that could be done by accident.

[gr8ful]

It is always quite interesting listening to the never ending debate of which is better Mac or PC. Which would you prefer, BMW or Kia? Both get you from point A to B. Have heat and air. Let you listen to your tunes. So why would anyone buy a BMW when they could own a Kia for so much less?

Some find that the additional features, creature comforts, ease of use items, etc. worth the difference and they can afford it. If you don't believe these things are worth the money, there are plenty of dealers who are glad to sell you a Kia. No need to hate on those who choose to make a different choice.

This is a link to Mac vs PC notebook comparison:
---> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/apple-mac-leopard-windows-vista,1985.html

When you compare a Mac feature for feature with a comparable PC notebook from a mainstream manufacturer, the Mac is more expensive but not significantly. Mac or PC? BMW or Kia? Buy/drive what you like and can afford and let's stop the hate. All that really matters in the end is ... are you happy with the choice YOU made.

my$.02

[thechidz]

PLEEEEEASE change the title of this thread so it makes sense???? I cant take it anymore:p

[TheReef]

It is always quite interesting listening to the never ending debate of which is better Mac or PC. Which would you prefer, BMW or Kia? Both get you from point A to B. Have heat and air. Let you listen to your tunes. So why would anyone buy a BMW when they could own a Kia for so much less?

Some find that the additional features, creature comforts, ease of use items, etc. worth the difference and they can afford it. If you don't believe these things are worth the money, there are plenty of dealers who are glad to sell you a Kia. No need to hate on those who choose to make a different choice.

This is a link to Mac vs PC notebook comparison:
---> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/apple-mac-leopard-windows-vista,1985.html

When you compare a Mac feature for feature with a comparable PC notebook from a mainstream manufacturer, the Mac is more expensive but not significantly. Mac or PC? BMW or Kia? Buy/drive what you like and can afford and let's stop the hate. All that really matters in the end is ... are you happy with the choice YOU made.

my$.02

Good post.
Different users have different tastes.
Different users will find value in different things.
Different users are different users, of which all users should understand.

To the OP, go into the Apple store and try a Mac out, then try a HP running Vista from somewhere else (If your considering a new PC), see what you like best. Look at iLife, then look at whatever HP (for example) gives you. Keep in mind Apple are updating their notebooks soon so if you choose to go Mac wait until then.

For your purposes either platform would work fine. Linux would. I think the Mac offers a better user experience, it lets me get the work done with least problems, there will be those disagree, there is no right answer.

[mikefly]

first off, this endless war is too funny -- if only jerry seinfeld was here to help the debate.

Secondly, I just explained this to my mom who bought a $500 laptop with a low-end processor (less than my 2006 macbook) with 3gb ram and 250gb hardrive (3x what i got speced in mine).

I said "The brain of your computer is slow, but it has very strong arms"

At this point, (to the best of my knowledge) the bottom of line mac offers a better processor than **MOST** PCs -- to get an equivalent processor, you need to buy a top-end PC laptop -- at which point (as a previous poster mentioned) - they are similarly priced. --- The difference -- the Mac for whatever reasons (cashgrab?) comes with wussy arms.

That said, by the time the memory becomes an issue, it will be super cheap to replace it -- I'm upgrading RAM 1.5 years after buying my computer - for a tiny fraction of what it cost then -- and it's only now that I notice a slowdown.

----

With regards to swapping out hardware and how many screws it takes -- no one cares! -- 99.9% of computer users will never open their machine even once. (I remember this from the days of internal 2400bps modems)

--

Surely this must be the definitive posting on the subject, and no more discussion will be needed. Surely.

[someone say ISWYDT]

[Eidorian]

first off, this endless war is too funny -- if only jerry seinfeld was here to help the debate.

Secondly, I just explained this to my mom who bought a $500 laptop with a low-end processor (less than my 2006 macbook) with 3gb ram and 250gb hardrive (3x what i got speced in mine).

I said "The brain of your computer is slow, but it has very strong arms"

At this point, (to the best of my knowledge) the bottom of line mac offers a better processor than **MOST** PCs -- to get an equivalent processor, you need to buy a top-end PC laptop -- at which point (as a previous poster mentioned) - they are similarly priced. --- The difference -- the Mac for whatever reasons (cashgrab?) comes with wussy arms.

That said, by the time the memory becomes an issue, it will be super cheap to replace it -- I'm upgrading RAM 1.5 years after buying my computer - for a tiny fraction of what it cost then -- and it's only now that I notice a slowdown.

----

With regards to swapping out hardware and how many screws it takes -- no one cares! -- 99.9% of computer users will never open their machine even once. (I remember this from the days of internal 2400bps modems)

--

Surely this must be the definitive posting on the subject, and no more discussion will be needed. Surely.

[someone say ISWYDT]I guess you haven't met the Macbook users that would sacrifice a clock speed multiplier or two for a better GPU solution.

[mosx]

This is a link to Mac vs PC notebook comparison:
---> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ista,1985.html

The link to the article you posted has a lot of things wrong. A whole lot.

First I want to point out that Toms Hardware's credibility among hardware enthusiasts has essentially vanished. They went down hill big time in the late 90s and have been at rock bottom ever since. Nobody who knows hardware takes them seriously any more.

But as far as things they got wrong. Well, on the first page they try to say that the Dell XPS has shared memory? A GeForce 8700M GT with shared memory? The baseline XPS M1730 ships with a GeForce 8700M GT with 256MB of GDDR3 memory. For an extra $300 you get dual GPUs running in SLI. To get the XPS M1730 up to the same price as the 17" MacBook Pro you get dual GPUs, Blu-ray, dual HDDs running in RAID 0 400GB. Tom's Hardware mentions the fact that the XPS is 2" thick while the 15.4" MacBook Pro they compare it to is 1" thick. They fail to mention the fact that the MacBook Pro has a metal case and improper cooling, making the system a room heater. They also mention MagSafe being an advantage while not mentioning that its a literal fire hazard and prone to failure.

And why the XPS M1730? Why not a regular consumer notebook? Why do Apple fans always try to compare to the XPS? Because the XPS is more expensive? Stupid. Compare it to a real notebook. Go to HP. The dv7t, 64-bit Vista Home Premium (don't try to say you need ultimate), 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, glass screen, 3GB of RAM, 512MB GeForce 9600M GT, 320GB (2x160) HDD, blu-ray for $1729.99. Similar specs in 15.4" w/blu-ray for $1,452. Get rid of the glass screen and blu-ray on the 15.4" and its $1200.

On the second page they try to build a desktop PC to compare to the Mac Pro. Why are they using a $429 motherboard and $1100 Xeon processors? The Xeon processor is a "workstation" processor that is primarily geared towards SERVER work! A $100 Core 2 motherboard and a 2.83GHz Core 2 Quad would be far faster for nearly all uses. Why are they using $134 RAM? Because its error correcting? You can get it cheaper than that. Plus nearly all people don't need slower ECC RAM anyway. Why include Firewire? eSATA is everywhere these days and the only devices that did use Firewire heavily, dv cams, now use USB 2.0 instead. Why a $320 power supply? You don't need a $320 power supply or a $40 keyboard. You DO NOT need Vista Ultimate either. OS X is not even on the same level as Vista Home Premium.

The next page says what we all know about manufacturers charging more for extra options.

Same for the page after that.

Then theres a page that implies OS X versus Windows. All we hear is that OS X "continues to refine itself" and that it doesn't have a registry and its built off UNIX. Okay, no real information and it sounded more like a sales pitch than something written by someone with more than 90 minutes of experience with OS X.

On the page after that we hear about OS X's interface being drawn by OpenGL and no mention of the fact that Aero users Pixel Shader 2.0. One sided much?

Then we hear about how you can run X11 applications. Who cares?

I like how the author brings up Front Row but doesn't mention how severely crippleid it is compared to Media Center in Vista.

Then after that we hear the author go on and on about how great OS X is and how Vista is "nice".

Even the comments responding to the article blast the author for being one sided and not telling the whole story. That article is written more like an Apple sales pitch than real comparison. As one commenter said, they cherry picked over priced PCs and compared them. Not real systems. Someone in the comments even points out the same HP system I did!

Secondly, I just explained this to my mom who bought a $500 laptop with a low-end processor (less than my 2006 macbook) with 3gb ram and 250gb hardrive (3x what i got speced in mine).

I said "The brain of your computer is slow, but it has very strong arms"

At this point, (to the best of my knowledge) the bottom of line mac offers a better processor than **MOST** PCs -- to get an equivalent processor, you need to buy a top-end PC laptop -- at which point (as a previous poster mentioned) - they are similarly priced. --- The difference -- the Mac for whatever reasons (cashgrab?) comes with wussy arms.

Processor speed isn't everything. Unlike OS X, which does everything in software, Vista takes advantage of the hardware for specific tasks. Playing a video? GPU does it. Playing audio? Sound processor does it.

OS X and other OS X software are also very very inefficient with CPU cycles. Throw Windows on your MacBook and watch the difference in how the very same software eats up CPU cycles. Overall task speed is the same in Windows and OS X, but in OS X it eats up more CPU time. Just look at how much CPU time Safari or Firefox or iTunes eats up in OS X compared to Windows. I sometimes see Firefox in OS X eating up 60% TOTAL CPU time, thats BOTH cores being used. Same goes for Safari. In Windows? never even half of one core.

You have to buy a top-end PC to match a Mac in terms of CPU speed? Not at all. When I got this MacBook I have now, 2.16GHz Core 2 Duo, my $900 HP shipped with a 2GHz Core 2 Duo. Now for $1200 you can get a PC with the same processor and much faster GPU than the MacBook Pro.

CPU speed means very little when talking about overall system speed. CPU speed only matters so much in OS X because it is very inefficient and it as well as other applications in OS X eat up ridiculous amounts of CPU time rather than being optimized.

[daniel.ord]

The link to the article you posted has a lot of things wrong. A whole lot.

First I want to point out that Toms Hardware's credibility among hardware enthusiasts has essentially vanished. They went down hill big time in the late 90s and have been at rock bottom ever since. Nobody who knows hardware takes them seriously any more.

(snip snip)

CPU speed means very little when talking about overall system speed. CPU speed only matters so much in OS X because it is very inefficient and it as well as other applications in OS X eat up ridiculous amounts of CPU time rather than being optimized.

Thanks for a great post. I hate how we can't all get along. None of the systems are perfect, and both have ups and downs. People seem to forget that a lot.

[Chappers]

You haven't proved anything.
You originally said
Show me musicians that use Garageband seriously. Real musicians.
So apart from
Oasis
Justice
Radiohead
plus a few other established musicians
Courtney Love, Limp Bizkit, Panic! At The Disco and Scout Niblett
Nine Inch Nails
Erasure
Rihanna
Kate Nash

Dave 'Deptford' Pine, (head of Point Blank music college, whose CV includes work with The Smiths, Massive Attack and Leftfield.)

Fall Out Boy
Mountain Mirrors 

Phantom Music Box 

Draz 

Cricket Rumor Mill 

Blue James Band 

Rantings of EVA 

CM4TBLY NUMB 

Imaginary Maps 

Seven Reasons 

Lo Mass Republic
I realise that you will say none of the above are respectable - but you lose.

You've deliberately twisted other statements of mine and flat out lied about things I've said. It's truly sad.
As is asking about compatibility issues with third party DVD players. Thats just another very cheap attempt at making Windows look bad. Compatibility issues are essentially a thing of the past. I haven't had any kind of "compatibility issues" since... well, honestly I never had in Windows. I've never heard of any true compatibility issues like those the Apple fans and Apple itself try to bring up. Like a couple of years ago at WWDC "PC" mentioned something about compatibility issues in the video before the keynote speech. What compatibility issues? Let's not forget Leopard's blue screen of death at launch thanks to a third party app. Thats a real compatibility issue ;)

Still no twisting. I asked two direct questions - do all versions of Vista have DVD decoders and are the third party ones compatible. Considering you keep ranting at me about this means I am unlikely to ask your advice when I try and decide if to upgrade or replace my XP box. How is asking two straight forward questions a cheap attempt at making Windows look bad, and how is it twisting your statement?
Please don't call me a liar - that's not polite either.

You're free to believe whatever you wish, even if it is false.
If you had an argument with evidence you would not need to resort to name calling.
You just called me a liar and the following are some of what you've have said recently
idiotic Apple fanboy
elitest Mac owner
I see most Mac owners as foolish people

I have yet to see any respectable sites not hosted by Mobile Me/.mac that were made and published with iWeb.
http://www.aaronbonine.com
http://www.andrewmuto.com
http://andrew-smothers.adsportal.org
http://www.andyhoffner.com
http://www.athwang.com
http://www.audioeric.com
http://www.bobbymeeks.com/bObByMeEKs/oPEN.html
http://www.boisypitre.com/
http://bradclark.co.uk/bc/about_Brad_Clark.html
http://www.butterflyink.us/
http://kcassam.free.fr/cassamchenai/Bienvenue.html
http://www.chicagolarry.com/ChicagoLarry/Home.html
http://www.chrisnesbit.com/Chris_Nesbit/Home.html
I would post more but I got bored. There are 13 there which is considered unlucky for some - in this case - you.

I also have yet to see any respectable musician, professional or otherwise, use Garageband. So you still have yet to prove your points.
See list above - point proven

Why would anyone choose to use iMovie over a superior product? Why would any logical person switch to a Mac for the iLife apps when the Windows apps that ship with their DV cam, photo printers, and other products are superior to those in the iLife suite?
Its still personal choice - you advocate choice - here it is in action.

Going in and modifying the code to publish on a different server. iWeb is all about the one click publishing to Mobile Me. When you don't use that you have to go in and edit the code to be able to work with a different host. You have to first publish the site to a folder and then go in and upload everything manually and change the code to reflect the directory listings and host you're using.
Upload site to FTP client - it isn't difficult.

So I guess Britney Spears is a respectable musician? I mean, she did sell over 80 million albums worldwide.
The thing with music is that its ridiculously cheap ($10 CD) and any idiot can make something that appeals to a mass of people. That doesn't make them good or "respectable".
By your logic, 50 Cent is a respectable musician as well.
Obviously I realise that only bands that you consider to be "respectable" can qualify but I posted a list above - there's even some Indie bands on it.
You so lost this argument a long time ago

You didn't quote anything respectable. And quite honestly, every single thing you've said has been nothing more than typical Mac user drivel that any PC user with common sense knows is false.
Your "respectable" clause yet again. Your friends and everyone you know ran out of steam - so you have the "respectable clause. I posted a PC friendly website - they said where they got their data from. You gave only your opinion. And you're still being rude.

Why is it sad? People are using what they want and need. At least they have the choice of what software to run on the hardware they want. They can buy whatever hardware fits their needs and run whatever software fits their needs. They're not told they have to buy THIS hardware with THIS software or nothing.
It's all about choice either way. Choice between PC or Mac - if the user is happy then no problem. My brother-in-law is happy with his PC - I am happy with my Mac. We both had a choice and we're both happy, which is nice.

How can I possibly know what HP was selling? Well, because I help several people per week buy new computer hardware so I regularly check sites like hp.com, Dell.com, gateway.com, ibuypower.com, newegg.com, etc. Ever since Vista was released, HP has ONLY sold XP on very low end hardware and not until well after Vista was released. They never sold it on high end hardware and they never sold it on their mainstream consumer lines after Vista's release. Their business line only has it on a limited number of machines with very few options.
I should have known that you field of expertise would expand to cover computer salesman for HP. Did you ever ask for XP instead of Vista? No don't answer that question - I already know the answer.

If it was a true loophole that Microsoft was so "scared" of, don't you think they would have closed it by now? All EULAs have wording that state that the agreement can change at any time. So Microsoft really could change their agreements and contracts. It's not that difficult.
MS noticed people weren't buying Vista at any great rate - so still allow a downgrade loophole to continue to keep up sales and still gain a Vista license sale. Seems fair enough. I can't blame them for that.

The $300m advertising campaign is to repair their image. Their image has been damaged mostly by ignorant media outlets and fans alternative products who really don't know what they're talking about.
Of course it can't be MS's fault they botched it up in the first place. It has to be everyone else's fault.

Because, again, 800 or 3,000 people somehow represent hundreds of millions?
Only in your eyes have I not proven my argument.
Let me know when your opinion along with everyone you know - proves your argument. I quoted pages who quoted their source - you did not. In a game of numbers my 800/3000 beats you and your friends.

Using the "downgrade" argument against Vista is just flat out stupid. People have legitimate reasons for wanting XP over Vista, as I explained in my previous posts. Trying to say Vista is bad because people prefer something else is just flat out stupid and trying to use that argument against Vista is, again, stupid. Especially considering that there are more than 7x the people using Vista than there are Macs in total.
There you go again another insult followed by the "There are more Vista users than Mac users so my argument is correct" statement. Still no evidence so your still wrong.

Microsoft got in trouble for integrating IE into Windows 98. Thats all they got in trouble for.
Not in the back waters of the EU - they've recently been fined heavily over Vista and anti-competitive practices and its on going.
Sorry I've trimmed out the body of you post, because it was rambling a bit about your opinion on Apple. If they are breaking the law then they will be punished.

History of what? Apple CHOOSES to be the gate keeper with the App Store.
I should hope so - its their shop.

With music DRM, people can blame the record labels all they want. If Apple wanted DRM to be gone on their music it would be gone. But it locks people into the iPod. People aren't just going to walk away to another player if they've spent even $100 on music at iTunes.
Steve wanted it dropped - some agreed some didn't. Apple don't own the music and they cannot sell it as they want.

I'm sorry, but if I call a company and their phone support is located within the US and the person I'm speaking to has a very thick Spanish accent and can barely understand what I'm saying, then I am going to question whether that person is here legally or not. If they are not here legally then they should be sent home. If you don't like that then that is too bad.
The fact that you first thought is - "they must be an illegal immigrant because they have a thick Spanish accent" speaks volumes. This is a bigoted thought process. You are also basically assuming Apple would employ illegal immigrants.

Nice way of saying you've lost and you know it.
Really?
Just to re-quote you
You're referring to the fact that there are well over 1 billion Windows PCs in the world.

Which is kind of an idiotic thing to do.

You're completely overlooking the fact that the majority of those PCs are in countries where the people simply cannot afford to upgrade their hardware to a level that can run Vista. Nearly all of these PCs are running hardware that was high end around the time XP was launched, maybe even weaker.

It's completely idiotic to make that kind of comparison when the vast majority of those PCs simply cannot run Vista (nor would an equally as old Mac be able to run Leopard) and those PCs are generally in areas where they cannot be upgraded because of economic/money issues.

So what you are saying here is that Microsoft put Vista out into the world knowing that out of the "over a billion" Windows users (1.25 billion actually) the vast majority would not be able to use it because it was all to expensive. MS have a global presence and do market research. Are you seriously suggesting they would do this. Basically - lock out the vast majority of their user base because they are poor. This ignores your preaching about how cheap it all is to buy PC and Windows because you're contradicting yourself then.

Yes, the way you're acting is getting quite embarrassing. You're giving Mac owners a bad name and, quite frankly, you need to quit.
I will when I'm ready - not when you would like me too.

So feel free to show me some sites that were made with iWeb that are not hosted by Mobile Me.
I have - I doubt they are respectable enough by your unknown standards but I put a few up anyway.

And as I said before, going by your logic, Britney Spears is more respectable than either one because she has sold far more than both combined.
I have no opinion on Ms. Spears and her respectability.

Yet another example of you hearing what you want to hear and choosing to ignore the entire story. I said nearly every user made video on youtube. Not every. You can go and see for yourself. The edits, text, etc. all prove what videos were edited with virtualdub.
What you said was from post http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=549348&page=5 post number 109
Have you ever watched youtube? Every edited movie on there is done by VirtualDub (freeware) and its almost always just text and music edited in.
I have underlined "every" so you can't miss it.

I'm sorry you can't accept the truth. But you picking and choosing what you want to hear and trying to put that forward as fact is getting both old and foolish.
See above post

Now you're just getting funny. And if everyone wanted iMovie in its current form, there wouldn't have been such a backlash forcing Apple to release that older version, right?
Didn't I just say that. Customers not happy. Apple re-issue old version to make them happy. Apple listened to customers. Doh.

I like how you keep saying "you're wrong". It's becoming painfully obvious that you're just trying to convince yourself that you're right.
Considering you still haven't backed up anything you've said with any quotable figures its very difficult to state otherwise.

Let's ask those uploaders how many of those movies were edited by iMovie, shall we?
Please do - get back to me with your results. Obviously you feel YouTube is the respectable site to gain opinion on.

I have nothing against a race of people in general, especially considering I am of mixed background. I do have a problem with someone illegally coming to a country, not paying taxes, and generally living off the fruits of legal residents labor. If you want to come to this country you must do it legally. My ancestors did it and so should they.
Please don't try and hide your bigotry by saying you're of mixed race - anyone can be a bigot. You decided that this person must be an illegal immigrant without any evidence other than the fact they had a thick accent.

And I most certainly did not pay $1406 for a "premium" computer so that part of the profit I have paid the manufacturer can go to fund paychecks of illegal immigrants. I may not like "Indian tech support" but at least they're doing their job legally.
And so you now directly accuse Apple of employing illegal immigrants.

I will no longer continue to discuss these topics with you, not because in anyway do I concede any argument I have put forward but because you have shown yourself to be a bigot and also made unbelievable claims about Apples employment practices.
It is these claims added to the unsubstantiated claims you've made in discussion with me and the constant insults and insulting comments that I feel no need to discuss anything further with you.

[kabunaru]

The only thing I don't like is that it doesn't have dedicated graphics. If it had dedicated graphics that kept up with what similar PCs were offering, I wouldn't have any real issues with it other than OS X randomly crashing.

I think the three biggest new things about the next MacBook will be:
1. Aluminium
2. LED-display
3. Dedicated Video card

That is what I think is going to happen.

[mosx]

Courtney Love

Somebody with no real musical talent. Just living off of the fact that she was married to Kurt Cobain.

Limp Bizkit

Oh please. My dog has more musical talent than Fred Durst. The fact that he got a record contract shows that the recording industry needs to be killed off and restarted.

Panic! At The Disco

Heh, who? Yes I know who they are but thats what most people will say.

Nine Inch Nails

If "Closer" was their one hit, then "The Perfect Drug" was their famous B Side and Trent Reznor has done nothing good since then (and Garageband wasn't around then!) other than speak out against the Big 4.

Erasure

As I said above "who?" heh. They sound like an 80s pop group that can't let the 80s go.

With that kind of sound its not difficult to believe they would use Garageband.

Rihanna

Because she makes her own music right? I mean she writes the music, plays the instruments, records them, etc.

Oh and shes not famous just because shes a sex symbol. She has actual "talent", right? And her music isn't just repetitive techno beats that people have been pumping out on their MIDI soundcards since the 90s, right?

Kate Nash

Seriously, you think shes a "respectable" musician? Her and the rest of the bands you listed are... well, more proof that the recording industry needs reworked.

But it is good to see you can come up with a list of one hit wonders and celebrities living off of someone elses celebrity. That really speaks volumes about the quality of Garageband ;)

How is asking two straight forward questions a cheap attempt at making Windows look bad, and how is it twisting your statement?

Because it wasn't a straight forward question. It was an in-direct attempt to make Windows look bad. Anyone with a shred of common sense knows that third party DVD players do not cause issues, especially someone who supposedly runs Windows already, and asking such a question is just a pathetic attempt at a cheap shot at the OS.

If you had an argument with evidence you would not need to resort to name calling.
You just called me a liar and the following are some of what you've have said recently
idiotic Apple fanboy
elitest Mac owner
I see most Mac owners as foolish people

If somebody lies then I call them a liar. Thats how the world works.

Whats this about "an argument with evidence"? You're the one making claims saying that iWeb is useful, that Garageband is used by respectable musicians. But what have you shown so far? You post links to peoples blogs and they generally all look the same with only very minor differences between them. The list of musicians you make is well.... Let's say I was an aspiring musician myself. If I came here and read this and saw Courtney Love, NIN, and Kate Nash were using Garageband, I'd stay about as far away from that software as I could.

Better yet, your argument for Windows being bad is based on small forum and website polls. You somehow claim that 800 people represents 260m. Thats just one of the stupid things I've ever heard.

I would post more but I got bored. There are 13 there which is considered unlucky for some - in this case - you.

How so? None of those sites are "respectable". They're all blogs and personal sites. Stuff nobody cares about. Give me REAL websites. I don't care about what people have to say or some random guys pictures I've never met and don't care to meet. Show me some REAL WEBSITES.

Whats even worse about those websites is how generic they look. They all share common traits. They all look like they're using mass produced graphics and templates, which of course they are. I mean, it honestly looks like one single person designed every site. Despite the differences, they all generally look the same in one way or another. Now I know Apple fans don't mind everything looking the same as the other, but most people DO want individuality and that makes iWeb even more useless. Why would any right minded person want to make a site that looks like everyone elses? They want it to look like its theirs.

All you just did was prove my point about iWeb being useless and you proved that iWeb, overall, isn't very good when it is used. Who wants a generic site? Who wants their site to look like everyone elses site? Not me.

Obviously I realise that only bands that you consider to be "respectable" can qualify but I posted a list above - there's even some Indie bands on it.
You so lost this argument a long time ago

How did I lose this argument again? You posted bands that are or were one hit wonders, one musician living off of her dead husband, and some very atrocious music in general.

So you have yet to show me any respectable bands using Garageband. If Nine Inch Nails and Courtney Love are the best you can do for your argument supporting Garageband, then you just made an even better argument AGAINST Garageband.

By the way, wheres your proof that Courtney Love uses Garageband? I just want to make sure of it. Because I just did a google search for "Courtney Love Garageband" and all it turns up is results to the site garageband.com and her name being mentioned. Thats it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/oct/18/news.apple is that your proof? You better have more than that, because all it says is that 3 of the bands you listed "plugged their mic into their Mac and recorded instant demos" in so many words. Which brings us back to the point I made. Anyone who uses their Mac's integrated soundcard and relies on it to produce quality doesn't know anything about sound quality or, really, what they're doing in general. And of course it brings up the point that we all know, that Nine Inch Nails only released the files so people could edit songs in Garageband. Not that they use it to make their own music. Even though their music is bad enough that one might suggest that they really do use it to produce their music..

Your "respectable" clause yet again. Your friends and everyone you know ran out of steam - so you have the "respectable clause. I posted a PC friendly website - they said where they got their data from. You gave only your opinion. And you're still being rude.

And where did they get their data from? Forum users? A poll of people visiting their site? Where are the numbers from the OEMs?

And, again, 800 people, 3,000 people, not even 100,000 people represent the feelings of those who bought 260m licenses. There is no way you can ever twist that argument to work in your favor.

I should have known that you field of expertise would expand to cover computer salesman for HP. Did you ever ask for XP instead of Vista? No don't answer that question - I already know the answer.

I deal with all brands ;) Stop twisting my words.

Of all the people who wanted XP over Vista thanks to Apple's ads.. when I let them play with Vista for a little bit, they wanted to know how Apple got away with lying the way they do.

MS noticed people weren't buying Vista at any great rate - so still allow a downgrade loophole to continue to keep up sales and still gain a Vista license sale. Seems fair enough. I can't blame them for that.

Oh please. Vista wasn't selling "at any great rate"? The adoption rate for Vista was higher than XP, even though some foolish Apple related sites tried to spin that with "percentages". Whats even funnier is how Steve Jobs got up on stage and made fun of Vista sales, even though Vista had already surpassed the total number of Mac users by that point.

Its absolutely hilarious when Apple and the fans try to use this. Even with you now. "Oh haha Vista isn't selling well!" Yeah, it's sold 10x the number of Mac users total. Thats somehow bad! How well has Leopard sold so far? How well CAN it sell? How fast can Leopard reach 260m sold? Vista did it in a year and a half. Leopard is less than a year old so it has plenty of time left to reach that number.

Of course it can't be MS's fault they botched it up in the first place. It has to be everyone else's fault.

Oh? And what did Microsoft do to their own reputation?

Let me know when your opinion along with everyone you know - proves your argument. I quoted pages who quoted their source - you did not. In a game of numbers my 800/3000 beats you and your friends.

So are you a stand-up comedian or something?

800 or 3,000 people DO NOT represent 260m licenses sold.

Thats like saying California represents the US as a whole. Come on. Stop being ridiculous. Somehow, the rest of the 299m people in the country want to be like the 1m in LA. Right.

There you go again another insult followed by the "There are more Vista users than Mac users so my argument is correct" statement. Still no evidence so your still wrong.

Wheres your evidence that Vista is "bad"? Wheres your evidence that people are switching to XP from Vista in LARGE NUMBERS? Eh? Come on, let's see some real proof. Not just the opinions of a small number of people.

Not in the back waters of the EU - they've recently been fined heavily over Vista and anti-competitive practices and its on going.

In the EU they got in trouble for bundling Media Player. Real realized that nobody was downloading their software. They ignored the fact that Real Player is awful in general and thats why nobody likes it, and went to the EU and cried.

Microsoft had the guts to stand up and say the whole thing was stupid and thats why its still on-going.

Sorry I've trimmed out the body of you post, because it was rambling a bit about your opinion on Apple. If they are breaking the law then they will be punished.

Of course you trimmed my post. Because you don't want to have to reply to the points I made about Apple breaking US law and breaking the DMCA they love to use oh so much against other people.

I should hope so - its their shop.

And its not a monopoly at all. You know, I think you're the first person out of all of the Apple sites I visit that actually said something remotely positive about Apple's grip on the App Store.

Steve wanted it dropped - some agreed some didn't. Apple don't own the music and they cannot sell it as they want.

Oh please. If he really wanted it gone he'd have it gone by now. iTunes sells more music than anyone else in the US. If Jobs wanted the DRM gone he could go to the record companies and say that they will not sell their music unless its DRM free. Do you really think the record companies want to lose their biggest source of money that continues to grow? Of course not. They'd bend in a heartbeat at the thought of losing their music. A few years ago, I remember reading an interview with a record exec that said he was afraid of Wal-Mart shrinking their CD sales section if the record companies didn't lower their wholesale prices.

But heres the thing. We all know that Apple loves to nickel and dime people to death. They can continue to sell DRM'ed low quality music until the sales do start to slow. At that point they can make iTunes Plus storewide and charge everyone for the song upgrades. Even though Napster and others give their customers free upgrades, Apple can and already does charge users for their upgrades.

But why give people DRM free when they continue to be happy with being locked in when they really just don't know yet that they're locked in?

The fact that you first thought is - "they must be an illegal immigrant because they have a thick Spanish accent" speaks volumes. This is a bigoted thought process. You are also basically assuming Apple would employ illegal immigrants.

Well, to legally work in this country your English skills have to be somewhat fluent and you have to be able to understand other people well. The outsourced tech support of HP has a better time understanding their customers than the person I'm referring to at Apple.

And how does it speak volumes? Honestly, this is going beyond stupid now. You're trying to use something thats common sense against me to make me look bad. All its doing is backfiring on you and making you look incredibly foolish. If you lived in the US you'd know that the majority of people here greatly dislike illegal immigrants and when we hear or see or know of a situation where an illegal worker is taking the spot of a legal resident, we get upset.

So what you are saying here is that Microsoft put Vista out into the world knowing that out of the "over a billion" Windows users (1.25 billion actually) the vast majority would not be able to use it because it was all to expensive. MS have a global presence and do market research. Are you seriously suggesting they would do this. Basically - lock out the vast majority of their user base because they are poor. This ignores your preaching about how cheap it all is to buy PC and Windows because you're contradicting yourself then.

This has gone well beyond stupid now.

You ignore the fact that XP is still being sold in developing countries. It's not a matter of Vista being too expensive so much as it is that the hardware being used there is generally older, or its too expensive for people there to buy new hardware to be able to run the new OS.

Computer hardware is actually more expensive in developing countries. Buying a computer there that is considered low-end here in the US would generally require a full 3 months of an average salary on those countries.

It's not that Microsoft is locking out people in these countries. They can buy Vista if they want to, theres even cheaper versions of Vista available in those countries. It's the simple fact of the matter that the economic situations in those countries prevents people from buying what we consider "modern" hardware that Vista (and Leopard) is optimized for.

You're also ignoring the fact (I'm so tired of saying that) that Microsoft offers CHOICES for the people in those countries. Microsoft still makes XP available to them because they know that the hardware that is actually affordable will run XP beautifully. But they make all forms of Vista, including those made for those countries, available.

Looking at those countries, wheres Apple at? I see iPods and iPhones in Africa, but where is Apple advertising their computers?

Let's look at the Philippines for a minute. Not a poor country but not exactly rich either. I see all major PC manufacturers there offering their "low-end" products all the way up to their high end notebooks with dedicated graphics. I see the iPhone there. I see iPods. But where are the Macs?

You want to accuse Microsoft of locking people out because they can't afford the product, but its actually quite the opposite. Microsoft not only makes standard versions of XP and Vista available in nearly all regions, but they have tailored made copies of the OS available as well that are significantly cheaper. Microsoft makes software available in these countries that, again, can actually run on the hardware that the people can afford.

All while Apple does what? You accuse Microsoft of locking people out who can't afford their product, but in reality, Apple, beyond the iPod and iPhone, is nowhere to be found. Apple is the company locking customers out because they can't afford their products.

You see Microsoft, Dell, HP, Acer, Asus, and many others making products for these developing countries all while Apple snubs them because they can't afford to spend 4 or 5 months salary on an entry level MacBook. But others are willing to recognize the potential of the people and the markets so they make products that these people can buy and can use. But Apple won't do it because that would mean *gasp* no longer pricing their units 2 to 3x above the cost of an equivalent PC.

This kind of stuff makes me sick. People accuse Microsoft of all of these bad things, like snubbing developing markets, or just being evil in general. All while Apple completely ignores the markets simply because they can't afford their overpriced hardware. Instead of bringing hardware prices down to reasonable levels and jumping on the opportunity to overtake Microsoft and Linux in these markets, Apple snubs them and continues their nickel and diming ways. Apple continues to do things like illegally locking the iPhone or pretending to be the champion of DRM free music while still using it as their best tool to maintain their monopoly on the iPods.

When people make comments about Microsoft and PC manufacturers being bad, while they're attempting to bring developing countries into the modern market and Apple and Jobs sit by and count their profits, it shows how ignorant the person who is who made that comment.

I have underlined "every" so you can't miss it.

Nice way to take a generalization literally. But I guess you were too busy thinking about how great Apple and thinking poorly of Microsoft to realize it was a generalization, right?

[mosx]

Didn't I just say that. Customers not happy. Apple re-issue old version to make them happy. Apple listened to customers. Doh.

Other than this one time, when has Apple ever listened to the customers? The iPhone refund? Please. Why don't we have dedicated graphics in the MacBook yet? Why are Mac prices still 2-3x higher than PC prices? Why don't we have copy and paste on the iPhone and iPod touch? Why don't older iPods get software updates with new features like the Zune and every other MP3 player? Why don't we have standard video ports on the MacBook yet? I could go on and on. Apple doesn't listen to customers. They listen to shareholders and whatever makes a profit.

Considering you still haven't backed up anything you've said with any quotable figures its very difficult to state otherwise.

Says the one who thinks 800 people represent 260m.

Please don't try and hide your bigotry by saying you're of mixed race - anyone can be a bigot. You decided that this person must be an illegal immigrant without any evidence other than the fact they had a thick accent.

Oh please. This thread has gotten about as stupid as it can now. I don't think it could possibly get any more stupid.

Just quit. You're embarrassing the decent people who own Macs.

Any right minded person who isn't afraid to say what they think or try to remain politically correct would think the same thing when they hear someone with an incredibly thick accent that can barely speak English and has even more trouble understanding well spoken English.

Seriously, just quit with this. There isn't a word in the English dictionary that can describe just how stupid this is and how stupid it is for your to continue on with this.

I will no longer continue to discuss these topics with you, not because in anyway do I concede any argument I have put forward but because you have shown yourself to be a bigot and also made unbelievable claims about Apples employment practices.
It is these claims added to the unsubstantiated claims you've made in discussion with me and the constant insults and insulting comments that I feel no need to discuss anything further with you.

It would be nice to see you not reply any more. You bring nothing to the debate. Your tactics of accusing me of "bigotry" basically put you below school yard insults. Basically, everything you say drags down the entire community of people who do like their Mac. If people saw you and thought the entire Mac community was anything like you, then Apple's marketshare would drop significantly. No right minded person would want to be associated with someone who would resort to such childish tactics and insults.

People like you are one of the reasons I got fed up with my Mac. I generally don't care what people think of me, but being associated with someone like you because of the fact that I own a Mac is something I don't want hovering over my head. Even if I was still an Apple supporter, I'd do everything possible to distance myself from people like you.

I think the three biggest new things about the next MacBook will be:
1. Aluminium
2. LED-display
3. Dedicated Video card

That is what I think is going to happen.

That'd be great. Dedicated graphics should have been in there all along. It's too bad Apple doesn't have an upgrade program like other manufacturers do. That way those of us who have MacBooks now could at least get a significant discount on the new hardware.

[kabunaru]

Mosx, what do you think about Logic Pro? Do you think more people use it than GarageBand?

[ZiggyPastorius]

I'd like to clarify that Trent Reznor (Nine Inch Nails) uses Pro Tools, not Garageband. I'd also like to point out, mosx, that your opinion of an artist does not decide whether they are respectable or not. If you think Closer and The Perfect Drug are Trent's best songs, or you think they're the most popular, or that that has any bearing on anything, then you have a seriously ****ed up view of music. Pretty Hate Machine and the tracks contained on it is the most famous work Trent's ever done, not because it sold 500 million albums (which it didn't), but because it built onto a genre that was just starting to take notice in the underground, and helped it to grow into something great and quite original. Skinny Puppy and Nine Inch Nails are perhaps the biggest shapers of the sound of an entire genre, more than one could say for many bands. One thing you've also seemed to forget is that when the record industry was plagued with crap like Limp Bizkit, Trent took his sweet time to do something with The Fragile that was important - actually make music that meant something, more for himself than anyone else. That's more than one can say about most bands, especially nowadays. Also the fact that I've been to two Nine Inch Nails shows in my life, one recently and one a few years ago after the release of what many consider his worst album, and both times they were sold out at large venues (Joe Louis Arena and the Palace of Auburn Hills), tells me that you're a bit wrong about Nine Inch Nails being a "one-hit wonder band." One-hit-wonders generally don't continue to sell out shows twenty years after they begin.

Now, of course, I know this won't be considered deprimental to your argument, as only bands that you like are "respectable," by your standards, but I figured I'd say something.

Oh, and by the way, what do you think of Berklee College of Music, in Boston? One of the most well-known and best music colleges in the world. Guess what kinds of computers they use?

;)

[NT1440]

sooo yea, how bout those 15" monitors guys?

mosx and that other guy need to stop fighting, or take it to a different thread. (but it is clear who is based off facts and who is just blind hatred.)

[m1stake]

Enough trolling, this guy went from having a different viewpoint to making himself look like an over opinionated tool.

[NT1440]

Apple doesn't listen to customers. They listen to shareholders and whatever makes a profit.


uh, just like every other major company out there??:confused:

[Eidorian]

sooo yea, how bout those 15" monitors guys?

mosx and that other guy need to stop fighting, or take it to a different thread. (but it is clear who is based off facts and who is just blind hatred.)The 15" MacBook rumor isn't anything new.

[polaris20]

Enough trolling, this guy went from having a different viewpoint to making himself look like an over opinionated tool.

It's pretty clear this forum has absolutely zero moderation when a nutjob troll like Mosx runs wild.

I wish I could go around spouting utter BS in the real world without a shred of anything to back it up. How's that working out for you, Mosx? When someone differs in opinion, do you correct them because it doesn't fall in line with yours? Is "your friends don't like it" a valid reasoning method where you work?

Gotta run. I've gotta go fire off an e-mail to Radiohead and all those other bands and let them know they're irrelevant according to some guy on an internet forum, so they know it's time to throw in the towel. :D

[likemyorbs]

"because you touch yourself at night"

LMAO. If only Seth Macfarlane were on there boards...

[Tensakun]

Just catching up on this thread after a rush job kept me up most the night.

Whew! Seems like some people really have a LOT of free time...or they very highly prioritize debating PC vs. Mac issues.:p

[Yooper39]

X

[Yooper39]

New user and this is my first post. I hope I'm getting it back on topic but just wanted to share my experience between a Sony Viao CR-390 and the new Blackbook I just bought. Specs below:

Sony Viao: Intel T7250@2 Ghz/2GB RAM/250 GB SATA HDD/DVD Burner /Vista Home Premium(DVD burner is tray loaded)

Apple Mac (Black): Intel T8300@2.4 Ghz/2 GB RAM/250 GB/Superdrive/Leopard

The Sony was great for about 2 months until I started getting BSODs, long shutdown times, inability to use the wireless connection for no apparent reason, extremely slow performance, etc. Battery life sucked at barely 2 hours. Vista was pleasant to use but it crashed all the time and was terribly slow. And that was even after I installed Service Pack One via One Care. Using the computer became such a PITA that I said "to hell with it" and bought the Macbook.

I have yet to experience a crash and this Mac just works, period. The OS is logical and intuitive for me. Wireless hookup is effortless and works every time. No troubleshooting and messing around every day to get things to work. It just works right the first time. Applications run much faster and are much more stable. Installs are a breeze. I've been using Windows for 20 years and (had it not been for Vista) would still be using it because XP, for the most part is trouble free and gets the job done. So far I like this Mac. Build quaity seems on par with the Sony Viao but ergonomics are better and I like the Mac's cleaner design.

A good analogy between using the Sony (PC) and the Mac is like the difference between driving my wife's Jeep and driving my VW. The VW feels more solid, more stable, no rattles or check engine lights and goes where I point it--kinda like the Mac. Efficient, solid, smooth, and hassle-free.

As for the Sony, I downgraded it to XP and it runs like a champ. It will be my wife's new computer. My other two older PCs are running XP which is fine for the kids.

This has been an entertaining forum to read. In my own personal opinion and experience, Vista is the worst OS MS ever came up with (I had Windows ME back in the day and I had fewer problems with 1 1/2 years of ME than I did in 6 miserable months of using Vista). It's buggy, slow, hogs resources, and really offers no additional functionality over XP. My Mac has XP installed under Parallels and guess what--it runs faster on the Mac as a virtual machine than it does on the Sony!

If MS comes up with an OS that's worth a damn replacing Vista maybe I'll once again own a new Windows machine. However for me this Mac does everything my PCs do...only faster and better. Don't get me wrong: Microsoft's has made some great products like XP, Office, One Care, Hotmail, Windows 98 SE, Windows 95, etc--used them for years and loved 'em. But they also laid a few eggs and Vista is a notable example right alongside Microsoft BOB, Windows ME, and the craptastic Internet Explorer.

I say get whatever works for you--but for me I'm glad I bought this Macbook and don't miss the daily Vista headaches, system lock ups, BSODs, and calls to Sony tech support. For me it's the Macbook and XP on my PCs--works for me.

[Digital Skunk]

So whats that eSATA-looky-like thingy on the MacBook pro? Okay so Apple calls it an 'Expansion Port' but the guy in the Apple Store says its an eSata port.

Nobody at the Apple Store said it was an eSata port unless everyone in your area is a moron.

I really think that you just heard that it was an eSata port or your mind just told you something different.

I honestly feel the $1099 or higher is too high for the MacBooks as well.

A tech guy I work with just paid $449 for a new Dell that has 2GB Ram and 160 hard drive. It has a 15.4 screen.

I would rather have a Mac product with what I feel like I know but I just don't see paying twice the price.

So you are preaching the classic: "I want this therefore it should be in my price range and affordable for me." type of argument.

I couldn't afford my first Mac brand new either, so I bought refurbished. Stop being a:

[alphaod]

Holy macro these mulitquote replies are ridiculous.

And with regard to the topic at hand: It comes in one size only because when you buy think of a MacBook, Apple wants only two images to come to mind, not a zillion different sizes and colors.

[mosx]

I'd like to clarify that Trent Reznor (Nine Inch Nails) uses Pro Tools, not Garageband. I'd also like to point out, mosx, that your opinion of an artist does not decide whether they are respectable or not. If you think Closer and The Perfect Drug are Trent's best songs, or you think they're the most popular, or that that has any bearing on anything, then you have a seriously ****ed up view of music. Pretty Hate Machine and the tracks contained on it is the most famous work Trent's ever done, not because it sold 500 million albums (which it didn't), but because it built onto a genre that was just starting to take notice in the underground, and helped it to grow into something great and quite original. Skinny Puppy and Nine Inch Nails are perhaps the biggest shapers of the sound of an entire genre, more than one could say for many bands. One thing you've also seemed to forget is that when the record industry was plagued with crap like Limp Bizkit, Trent took his sweet time to do something with The Fragile that was important - actually make music that meant something, more for himself than anyone else. That's more than one can say about most bands, especially nowadays. Also the fact that I've been to two Nine Inch Nails shows in my life, one recently and one a few years ago after the release of what many consider his worst album, and both times they were sold out at large venues (Joe Louis Arena and the Palace of Auburn Hills), tells me that you're a bit wrong about Nine Inch Nails being a "one-hit wonder band." One-hit-wonders generally don't continue to sell out shows twenty years after they begin.

Now, of course, I know this won't be considered deprimental to your argument, as only bands that you like are "respectable," by your standards, but I figured I'd say something.

Oh, and by the way, what do you think of Berklee College of Music, in Boston? One of the most well-known and best music colleges in the world. Guess what kinds of computers they use?

;)

OOh please, Nine Inch Nails?

You really think they did something worth while?

For the most part, Nine Inch Nails is nothing more than a guy sitting behind a computer making music that sounds like it was made on a computer.

All Nine Inch Nails ever did was become popular with the Goth teens in the 90s. NIN, like Marilyn Manson, proved that angsty teenagers will buy any music that supports their negative outlook on life. Much the same way emo bands do now.

Which leads me to say thatThe Fragile was worse than Load in the 90s and The Slip is worse than St. Anger. I remember ALL the hype surrounding The Fragile. Everybody thought it was going to be the next big thing. But when it came out all it did was prove, like the new Manson album, that the angsty teens of the 90s were becoming adults and didn't care for that kind of music any more.

I remember when "With Teeth" came out. That single "The Hand That Feeds".. yeah, that song got old fast. It was mastered and mixed so bad as if it was trying to hide the fact that it was a bad song.

Nine Inch Nail's peak was The Downward Spiral. That was the beginning of 1990s teenage angst with that sort of music taking center stage.

I hope you realize that people sometimes to go concerts just to go. I know I've gone to a few for bands I didn't care for or to music festivals for genres I'm not big on just because its a music event and its a good excuse to get out of the house after a long day.

I wish I could go around spouting utter BS in the real world without a shred of anything to back it up. How's that working out for you, Mosx? When someone differs in opinion, do you correct them because it doesn't fall in line with yours? Is "your friends don't like it" a valid reasoning method where you work?

Heh, spouting BS? Explain that one to me please. I'd really like to know what BS i'm "spouting". Is it the fact that 800 people don't represent 260m? Is it the fact that Macs are way behind PCs in hardware? Or is it the fact that OS X still doesn't have technologies that Windows had a decade ago and are now available even on Linux?

This has been an entertaining forum to read. In my own personal opinion and experience, Vista is the worst OS MS ever came up with (I had Windows ME back in the day and I had fewer problems with 2 years of ME than I did in 6 miserable months of using Vista). 6 months of user experience led me to the conclusion that Vista sucks. It's buggy, slow, hogs resources, and really offers no additional functionality over XP.

I say get whatever works for you--but for me I'm glad I bought this Macbook and don't miss the daily Vista headaches, system lock ups, BSODs, and calls to Sony tech support. For me it's the Macbook and XP on my PCs--works for me.

You have hardware issues.

Heres how things really work with Vista:

I've been using it on multiple computers now for a year and a half. Never a single crash. Never a BSOD. Never any kind of problem whatsoever. Thanks to Service Pack 1 it is now faster than XP on the same hardware. My games run better, my OS itself runs better, applications launch faster, CPU intensive apps run faster in Vista than in OS X. My videos look and run better.

If you're having constant blue screens and lockups then your system is faulty. Send it back to Sony. In fact, don't buy Sony in the first place. They make junk and mark it up. Get a Dell or an HP if you want a well built and reasonably priced notebook.

Oh yeah, heres how wireless setup goes in Vista: After system boot the little bubble pops up saying "Networks are available". You click it, select the network, type in a password if needed, and you're done. If you leave the "Remember this network" box checked then it will automatically log in to that network each time you're around it.

Such a headache.

[polaris20]

Just catching up on this thread after a rush job kept me up most the night.

Whew! Seems like some people really have a LOT of free time...or they very highly prioritize debating PC vs. Mac issues.:p

No, I just find it really funny to read Mosx's posts. Although now I'm starting to feel sorry for him, because it appears he might actually have some mental issues he needs to work through.

Heh, spouting BS? Explain that one to me please. I'd really like to know what BS i'm "spouting". Is it the fact that 800 people don't represent 260m? Is it the fact that Macs are way behind PCs in hardware? Or is it the fact that OS X still doesn't have technologies that Windows had a decade ago and are now available even on Linux?

Well, I'd quote everything in this thread, but I simply don't have the time. And in case you're wondering about a couple things, allow me to post links to clear something up:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fact

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion

Yours are the latter, not the former. It seems you're a little confused. We're also still waiting on something a little more than your 4 laptops and "your friends" for backing up these opinions.

Oh and since you're apparently the authority on music, should I pick up the new Metallica? Is it any good? Doesn't matter if you've actually heard it or not, I'm sure you just know.

I do find it amusing that you said the article I posted didn't show how they arrived at the numbers (35% downgrade from Vista to XP) yet they actually do, about a 1/3 of the way down. That just shows that you're not actually reading anything posted, and really are just here to argue and troll. Either that or you have a serious reading comprehension problem. Ah, maybe both. :D

Another question; why do you even come here? If you don't like Apple or their products anymore, why bother? Are you really that pathetic that you feel the need to come here and slag them and their products? Really? I'm sure there's an HP forum to hang out at.

Seriously dude, it's like if I were to spend my time at the Chevy forum when I actually drive a Honda, and just sit there and say how crappy Chevy is.

http://communitiesonline.homestead.com/files/troll_2.jpg

[polaris20]

Here's some actual benchmarks from Vista vs. XP. Now Mosx, you've got to actually read the article this time, we're on the honor system! :D

http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/03/17/12TC-vista-versus-xp_1.html
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1332&page=6
http://news.cnet.com/Windows-XP-outshines-Vista-in-benchmarking-test/2100-1016_3-6220201.html

Mosx, I know you are smarter than infoworld, but how about the other two? Eh, I don't know why I try with actual proof Vista is slower! You're such a smart guy you obviously know more!

[polaris20]

Here's some actual benchmarks from Vista vs. XP. Now Mosx, you've got to actually read the article this time, we're on the honor system! :D

http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/03/17/12TC-vista-versus-xp_1.html
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1332&page=6
http://news.cnet.com/Windows-XP-outshines-Vista-in-benchmarking-test/2100-1016_3-6220201.html
http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/11/vista-sp1-performance-dud.html

Mosx, I know you are smarter than infoworld, but how about the other three? Eh, I don't know why I try with actual proof Vista is slower! You're such a smart guy you obviously know more!

EDIT

Here's some more benchmarks, this time Vista vs. OS X:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/reviews/4258725.html?page=4

[CrimsonTider]

Intel� Core™2 Duo mobile processor with 800MHz frontside bus, 3MB shared L2 cache and 2.1GHz processor speed
1GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM for multitasking power, expandable to 4GB
Slot-loading DVD-ROM/CD-RW combo drive
The next-generation Intel® Core™2 Duo processor is based on the innovative Intel� Core™ microarchitecture, so it runs faster and is more energy-efficient for cooler, quieter operation
13.3" widescreen TFT-LCD display with 1280 x 800 resolution
120GB Serial ATA hard drive (5400 rpm)
Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 graphics with up to 144MB DDR2 SDRAM shared video memory; mini DVI output with support for DVI, VGA, S-video and composite video outputs (requires optional adapters; not included)
FireWire port (400 Mbps) and 2 high-speed USB 2.0 ports; built-in Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR (Enhanced Data Rate) wireless interface
Built-in AirPort Extreme wireless network connection (802.11n); 10/100/1000Base-T Gigabit Ethernet LAN
Built-in iSight Web cam, stereo speakers and omnidirectional microphone
Solid-state trackpad with two-finger scrolling, tap, double-tap and drag capabilities
Weighs 5 lbs. and measures only 1.1" thin for easy portability; lithium-polymer battery for up to 4.5 hours of battery life
Mac OS X 10.5 "Leopard" preinstalled; software package included with Time Machine, Spotlight, iChat, Safari, iCal, DVD Player, Front Row, Photo Booth, Xcode Developer Tools, iLife '08 (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, iWeb, GarageBand) and more


Intel® Pentium® Dual-Core mobile processor T2390 with 1MB L2 cache and 1.86GHz processor speed
2GB DDR2 memory for multitasking power, expandable to 4GB
Multiformat DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer support records up to 8.5GB of data or 4 hours of video using compatible media
Glossy 15.4" WXGA high-definition widescreen display with TrueLife technology and 1280 x 800 resolution
160GB Serial ATA hard drive (5400 rpm)
Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 integrated graphics with up to 256MB as allocated by Windows Vista; high-definition 2.0 audio; S-video output
Top-side media buttons to easily play, pause, stop, fast-forward and rewind at the touch of a button
8-in-1 digital media reader supports Secure Digital, Secure Digital High Density, Secure Digital High Capacity, MultiMediaCard, Memory Stick, Memory Stick PRO, xD-Picture Card and SDIO formats
IEEE 1394 (FireWire) interface and 4 high-speed USB 2.0 ports for fast digital video, audio and data transfer
Built-in Dell 1395 wireless networking mini-card (802.11b/g); Dell's advanced antenna design features 3 antennas to find and connect to networks with ease, delivering enhanced wireless reception; standard Wi-Fi Catcher to quickly locate wireless hotspots
Integrated 10/100 Ethernet network card; 56 Kbps modem
Weighs 6.2 lbs. and measures 1"–1.5" thin for portable power; 6-cell lithium-ion battery
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium operating system with Service Pack 1 (SP1) preinstalled; software package included with Microsoft Works 8 and Roxio

[CrimsonTider]

Intel® Core™2 Duo mobile processor T8100 with 2 processing cores, 800MHz system bus, 3MB cache and 2.1GHz processor speed per core
4GB DDR2 memory for multitasking power
Slot-loading DVD±RW/CD-RW drive
From our expanded online assortment; not available in all Best Buy stores
The next-generation Intel® Core™2 Duo processor is based on the innovative Intel® Core™ microarchitecture, so it runs faster and is more energy-efficient for cooler, quieter operation
15.4" WXGA+ widescreen display with TrueLife technology
320GB SATA hard drive (5400 rpm)
Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 with up to 358MB of shared video memory; Intel High Definition audio 2.0; HDMI connector
Built-in 2.0-megapixel webcam with microphone makes it easy to chat with and send video mail to family and friends
8-in-1 media reader supports Secure Digital, SDIO, Secure Digital High Density, Secure Digital High Capacity, Memory Stick, Memory Stick PRO, MultiMediaCard and xD-Picture Card
IEEE 1394 (FireWire) interface and 4 high-speed USB 2.0 ports for fast digital video, audio and data transfer
Built-in Bluetooth; Dell 1397 wireless networking mini-card (802.11b/g); 10/100/1000 Ethernet LAN with RJ-45 connector
Weighs 6.1 lbs. and measures 1.3" thin for portable power; 6-cell lithium-ion battery
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Edition 64-bit operating system preinstalled; software package included with Microsoft Works 9.0, Adobe Reader 8.1 and Roxio Creator 10 Dell Edition

[Cheffy Dave]

My Daughters 15' Toshiba refurb just went belly up after a year and a half of use and $1130, bad MOBO, (second one)

I'm putting this one in. My friends all have MB refurbs 3 & 4 years old. Still going strong. You get what you pay for:rolleyes:

[polaris20]

You have fun with those Dells, Crimson Rider. Be sure to get their Gold Support for when they break. Also, get them with the XP downgrade option (usually free) so that you actually get the processing speed you're paying for.

[hogfaninga]

You have fun with those Dells, Crimson Rider. Be sure to get their Gold Support for when they break. Also, get them with the XP downgrade option (usually free) so that you actually get the processing speed you're paying for.

I agree. Go buy it. We don't care. There are PC boards that will be more than happy to give you advice on the Dell or any PC.

[polaris20]

I agree. Go buy it. We don't care. There are PC boards that will be more than happy to give you advice on the Dell or any PC.

Oh no, they (Crimson and Mosx) won't leave. Much more fun to troll the Mac forums instead.

Excuse me, I've gotta go visit some country music forums. I hate country, but I thought I'd go let them know how much better metal is. :D

[Digital Skunk]

.... blah blah blah... :mad:

...blah blah blah... :mad:

Dude, it doesn't matter. You will either have to pick a Macbook at 13.3" or any other machine at 15.4" or you can hackintosh it, or grab a $2000 Macbook Pro.

Take your pick and stop comparing.

You think we didn't have the same concerns when we switched? Although I did switch with the 14.1" iBook, same fights man.

Honestly, there are a few PCs out there that have peeked my interests, the Sony TZ being one of them. I am not going to blast the forums with comparisons of the MacBook Air and Sony TZ and piss people off just to get them angry and PISSED OFF, I will do my own comparisons and take my pick.

p.s. The PC market will always have more choices and better specs when compared to the Macintosh. Always been that way. You choose the Mac for something that the PC doesn't offer that you REALLY need. If you don't need anything but a machine, go with the PC... like the Dell Mini 9 that may be in my bag soon.

[ayeying]

Intel® Core™2 Duo mobile processor T8100 with 2 processing cores, 800MHz system bus, 3MB cache and 2.1GHz processor speed per core
4GB DDR2 memory for multitasking power
Slot-loading DVD±RW/CD-RW drive
From our expanded online assortment; not available in all Best Buy stores
The next-generation Intel® Core™2 Duo processor is based on the innovative Intel® Core™ microarchitecture, so it runs faster and is more energy-efficient for cooler, quieter operation
15.4" WXGA+ widescreen display with TrueLife technology
320GB SATA hard drive (5400 rpm)
Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 with up to 358MB of shared video memory; Intel High Definition audio 2.0; HDMI connector
Built-in 2.0-megapixel webcam with microphone makes it easy to chat with and send video mail to family and friends
8-in-1 media reader supports Secure Digital, SDIO, Secure Digital High Density, Secure Digital High Capacity, Memory Stick, Memory Stick PRO, MultiMediaCard and xD-Picture Card
IEEE 1394 (FireWire) interface and 4 high-speed USB 2.0 ports for fast digital video, audio and data transfer
Built-in Bluetooth; Dell 1397 wireless networking mini-card (802.11b/g); 10/100/1000 Ethernet LAN with RJ-45 connector
Weighs 6.1 lbs. and measures 1.3" thin for portable power; 6-cell lithium-ion battery
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Edition 64-bit operating system preinstalled; software package included with Microsoft Works 9.0, Adobe Reader 8.1 and Roxio Creator 10 Dell Edition

Here's my little review of my Dell Inspiron 1525, dude, you don't know until you have it side by side. I have a Dell Inspiron 1525 right next to me right now, I'll give you the specs too btw:

2.0GHz Core 2 Duo T5750 (667MHz/2MB L2 Cache)
3.0GB DDR2-667MHz Ram
250GB @ 5400RPM
X3100 Video Card
DVD +/- RW w/o DL Drive
2.0MP WebCam
6-Cell Battery

I can say at first hand, this thing has bad build quality. The monitor literally shakes if the table is shaking. Comparing that to my MacBook Pro, the quality on the dell is cheap.

The keyboard is slightly offset, not much difference between my MBP and the Dell. The keyboard is somewhat the same between the two imo.

The touchpad on the dell is EXTREMELY small. I miss nearly 80% of any type of taps or points. The touchpad itself is made out of the same plastic as the rest of the casing. It has somewhat of a matte feel while the MBP has a smooth feel.

The screen is EXTREMELY inferior to the LED backlit on the MBP. The MBP screen is brighter, virtually no light leakage and extremely good viewing angles. The Dell, has the opposite of all of that. Its extremely dim even at max brightness. The glossy makes it even crappier then what I had on my 2nd Generation MacBook or MacBook Air. Furthermore, it uses 1280x800 which is okay, makes things bigger, but its blurrier even at native compared to teh 1440x900 on the MBP.

The system gets mildly hot. Unlike the MBP which the casing is made out of aluminum, the dell is plastic. The heat isn't that noticable except the fan likes to turn on after a while regardless of what I'm doing. I'll just be listening to music on WMP and the fan decides to turn on. The fan isn't quiet either, its rather loud, similar to 5000 rpm on the Penryn MBP's.

The webcam, for being 2.0MP is extremely bad quality vs the iSight. I've noticed it, my dad noticed it. It may have a 2.0MP pixel quality, but comparing a 2.0MP on the laptop and 2.0MP on my dad's cellphone, the cellphone has a MUCH better quality then the webcam nearly 10-20 times better.

The processor is slow. I personally never used this slow of a processor yet. My old macbook had a T7200 @ 2.0GHz, 4MB L2 Cache and 667MHz FSB and it was extremely faster then this even under Windows Vista. I don't know why its slow but it just is.

The speakers are extremely quiet. The last time I heard this quiet of speakers are from the 2nd generation MacBook. If anyone has owned that generation, you'll know its really quiet even at max volume.

Vista is just slow on this system. It stalls, it lags, it has random reasons for not working. I have no idea why. This system is "Designed for Windows Vista" and it has trouble running vista with all the updates and nothing else installed but drivers/updates.

Overall, comparing to the MBP, I can see the justification of paying more, A LOT more for A LOT better system. Even paying for a MacBook at 1499 retail price, I can see the justification. It is just better.

Furthermore, the price on the dell was $599 + tax/shipping/enviromental fee. It came out to be $686 all together.

Edit: Stop comparing specs and look at build quality. Dells are notorious for bad build quality. Seriously, after switching to Mac Laptops, the dell laptops seems cheap to me. Even at the XPS line, which is a step up from the Inspirons I've owned.

[Tallest Skil]

Mac OS X 10.5 "Leopard" preinstalled; software package included with Time Machine, Spotlight, iChat, Safari, iCal, DVD Player, Front Row, Photo Booth, Xcode Developer Tools, iLife '08 (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, iWeb, GarageBand) and more

Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium operating system with Service Pack 1 (SP1) preinstalled; software package included with Microsoft Works 8 and Roxio

End of argument. I don't even need to say anything.

[frogcat]

Mosx, you sure are pretentious. I mean that's not a bad thing, but people do have their own tastes, and versions of what "respectable" means.

You are shooting down every artist thrown at you, and every mac argument. You definitely have massive bias. First off, art is subjective. Second, you can't compare respectability across genre's. You can't say that Led Zepplin is a better band than say...Bjork, or that Jeff Buckley is worse than Tupac. They are all respectable, but saying one is worse than the other, is saying that you don't know enough about that genre.
This in case, that means people should stop arguing music/garageband = respectable. You are throwing out random bands that mosx will likely say sucks. Plus, come on guys, professional musicians are not using garageband. IT IS A STARTER KIT FOR THE AMATEUR MUSICIAN!

Second, the Philippines has Mac users. There are complete forums for that. Mac may not be open to all Filipinos, but Windows also has LARGER market power, that some businesses view as an industry barrier. The fact that Apple is one of the only companies to challenge Windows makes them a respectable company. They help drive innovation in the industry.

Apple is just gaining in market, so give the company time. Their software is already provided to college students at less than half costs. I bought leopard for 27.99. That means their is hope for third world companies as well.

STOP beating people up for loving the underdog companies, and underdog bands. You're like that parent in the 30's who couldn't listen to JAZZ, the devil's music. I mean that's what you sound like. Radiohead revolutionized their genre, and sound in general. Music is sweeter because of them. That's resepectable. Now, panic at the disco...not so much:) haha

[polaris20]

Mosx, you sure are pretentious. I mean that's not a bad thing, but people do have their own tastes, and versions of what "respectable" means.

You are shooting down every artist thrown at you, and every mac argument. You definitely have massive bias. First off, art is subjective. Second, you can't compare respectability across genre's. You can't say that Led Zepplin is a better band than say...Bjork, or that Jeff Buckley is worse than Tupac. They are all respectable, but saying one is worse than the other, is saying that you don't know enough about that genre.
This in case, that means people should stop arguing music/garageband = respectable. You are throwing out random bands that mosx will likely say sucks. Plus, come on guys, professional musicians are not using garageband. IT IS A STARTER KIT FOR THE AMATEUR MUSICIAN!

Second, the Philippines has Mac users. There are complete forums for that. Mac may not be open to all Filipinos, but Windows also has LARGER market power, that some businesses view as an industry barrier. The fact that Apple is one of the only companies to challenge Windows makes them a respectable company. They help drive innovation in the industry.

Apple is just gaining in market, so give the company time. Their software is already provided to college students at less than half costs. I bought leopard for 27.99. That means their is hope for third world companies as well.

STOP beating people up for loving the underdog companies, and underdog bands. You're like that parent in the 30's who couldn't listen to JAZZ, the devil's music. I mean that's what you sound like. Radiohead revolutionized their genre, and sound in general. Music is sweeter because of them. That's resepectable. Now, panic at the disco...not so much:) haha

None of this is front page news, but that's not likely to stop the trolls from squawking.

[frogcat]

It wasn't aimed at stopping a troll. More like setting opinions in that could possibly instill knowledge in a less aggressive manner.

I don't think answering each one of his sentences with bitter argument will stop mosx either. That just causes jihad (for lack of better term).

[polaris20]

It wasn't aimed at stopping a troll. More like setting opinions in that could possibly instill knowledge in a less aggressive manner.

I don't think answering each one of his sentences with bitter argument will stop mosx either. That just causes jihad (for lack of better term).

Eh, you're right.

[Digital Skunk]

End of argument. I don't even need to say anything.

Good find.

Most users don't realize that they ruin their arguments when they post specs of both a PC and equivalent Mac.

They also ignore the benefits of BOTH systems because they mainly want to concentrate on those few things they need.

The OP should have just gotten a 15" dell or hp and left well enough alone.

[polaris20]

Good find.

Most users don't realize that they ruin their arguments when they post specs of both a PC and equivalent Mac.

They also ignore the benefits of BOTH systems because they mainly want to concentrate on those few things they need.

The OP should have just gotten a 15" dell or hp and left well enough alone.

What it really comes down to is this: is the user wanting to purchase based on hardware specs, or the applications they need? What's important to them?

I use an operating system, not a computer. The computer is useless if the operating system doesn't suit my needs, or doesn't make me more productive. It doesn't matter if I have a quad core Xeon proc if it's running Windows and I want to run Logic 8. To me, the computer doesn't suit my needs.

If Windows Vista does all you want it to and you're fine with the lower speed compared to XP and OSX, then by all means, have at it. If you're intelligent, you'll at least get a Thinkpad, which you'll be getting a high quality PC. But it's not going to cost you $499.

[polaris20]

Interesting to see benchmarks with Macs running OS X and Vista:

Vista:
http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/77641

OS X:
http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/77815

Note that I got a 2691 score off of my Thinkpad, with a T7700 C2D and 3GB of RAM.

[ZiggyPastorius]

OOh please, Nine Inch Nails?

You really think they did something worth while?

For the most part, Nine Inch Nails is nothing more than a guy sitting behind a computer making music that sounds like it was made on a computer.

All Nine Inch Nails ever did was become popular with the Goth teens in the 90s. NIN, like Marilyn Manson, proved that angsty teenagers will buy any music that supports their negative outlook on life. Much the same way emo bands do now.

Which leads me to say thatThe Fragile was worse than Load in the 90s and The Slip is worse than St. Anger. I remember ALL the hype surrounding The Fragile. Everybody thought it was going to be the next big thing. But when it came out all it did was prove, like the new Manson album, that the angsty teens of the 90s were becoming adults and didn't care for that kind of music any more.

I remember when "With Teeth" came out. That single "The Hand That Feeds".. yeah, that song got old fast. It was mastered and mixed so bad as if it was trying to hide the fact that it was a bad song.

Nine Inch Nail's peak was The Downward Spiral. That was the beginning of 1990s teenage angst with that sort of music taking center stage.

I hope you realize that people sometimes to go concerts just to go. I know I've gone to a few for bands I didn't care for or to music festivals for genres I'm not big on just because its a music event and its a good excuse to get out of the house after a long day.

For your information, all that music "made by a computer" is actually made on synthesisers, guitars, basses, marimbas, and plenty of other real instruments. When's the last time you went to an Industrial or Rock concert, and had them break out Marimbas, upright basses, grand pianos, mandolins, and a bunch of random stuff and play beautiful instrumental pieces for a while? Trent Reznor is not the greatest musician in the world, but he plays many instruments, and writes all of this music by himself. No computers, all real instruments, so, think about that before you reply with your know-nothing comments about computer generated music.

Also, I'd like to point out to you (since I'm sure you've never been to a Nine Inch Nails concert, and I'm sure you know nothing about the music besides a couple of songs) that being "Goth," whatever the hell that means, has nothing to do with liking a certain type of music. The second you bring stupid generalisations into stuff like this is the second you lose the argument. There is no validity in saying **** like "Only [insert vague classification of a group of people that I don't like and can twist the definition of to benefit my own argument] listen to this band, therefore they suck."

Also, I'd like to point out that Emo is a sub-genre of hardcore punk that hasn't been active since the late 1990's. It started in the 1970's, and I'd be curious to hear your personal heartfelt definition of the genre.

Not much I can say about this next paragraph. Basically, your argument is "I hated The Fragile, so Nine Inch Nails sucks." Wrong. And do you have any idea how many adults listen to Nine Inch Nails? Of course not, but even if the number was greater than the kids who do, you'd just ignore that fact.

You should probably re-familiarise yourself with Nine Inch Nails' music, as last time I checked, concept albums that detail a fictional world of artistic opression and the detriment to the first amendment of the United States constitution are not just a "sad outlook on life." They must be, though, because you said it's true...I guess I'll remember that next time I decide to read a book like 1984, as that's obviously just a book for whiny emo teenagers.

Okay.

Are you sure you're not thinking about Nirvana? Last time I checked, Grunge was the popular genre of the 1990's that exemplified angst, not Industrial Metal.

Oh, please. If you spend $70 to go to concerts of bands you don't like, then you have too much goddamn money.

The essence of this argument is a disagreeance. If I list a band you don't like and say they use Macs, you say, "That band sucks. That just proves only sucky bands use Macs." If I list a band that you like that uses Macs, you just say "Well, that's just one of a couple. More good artists use Windows than ones who use Macs." It's like writing "I know you are, but what am I?" on a wall, and arguing with it.

Edit: By the way, I'm waiting for your comments about Berklee.

[mosx]

No, I just find it really funny to read Mosx's posts. Although now I'm starting to feel sorry for him, because it appears he might actually have some mental issues he needs to work through.

Oh come on. How old are you? If you're over the age of 18 please try to act it.

Yours are the latter, not the former. It seems you're a little confused. We're also still waiting on something a little more than your 4 laptops and "your friends" for backing up these opinions.

What "opinions"? It's a fact that 800 people do not represent 260m. It's a fact that you can buy a PC and, for less than the cost of a Mac, you can get MUCH better hardware. $1299 on a MacBook will get you a 13.3" screen, integrated graphics, 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, 2GB of RAM, etc. $1200 on an HP will get you the same processor, RAM, and HDD (sometimes 250GB), but you'll get dedicated graphics that put the MacBook Pro to shame, a larger 15.4" display with a resolution of 1680x1050, and other things like ExpressCard slot, memory card reader, HDMI output, VGA, S-Video, etc. etc.

And no Apple apologist here has proven their argument. Nobody has proven that iWeb is useful. The only links provided to back up the iWeb argument so far have been to personal blogs and such, and they all look generic and share far too many characteristics. They generally look the same. They're all blogs and sites that nobody cares about, indicated by the counters on some of the sites.

Nobody has proven that real musicians use Garageband either. Opening Garageband to record a vocal doesn't count as using it to make REAL MUSIC. No real musician worthy of the label musician is going to use a recording made from an integrated soundcard.

Oh and since you're apparently the authority on music, should I pick up the new Metallica? Is it any good? Doesn't matter if you've actually heard it or not, I'm sure you just know.

I have heard it. It'd be a fantastic album if it wasn't brickwalled. The mastering is so bad that it sounds like it was recorded with a MacBook using Garageband ;) Theres clipping everywhere and absolutely no dynamic range. It's funny that theres hundreds of posts on the official Metallica site talking about how much better the Guitar Hero 3 version sounds, because its not brickwalled.

I do find it amusing that you said the article I posted didn't show how they arrived at the numbers (35% downgrade from Vista to XP) yet they actually do, about a 1/3 of the way down. That just shows that you're not actually reading anything posted, and really are just here to argue and troll. Either that or you have a serious reading comprehension problem. Ah, maybe both

Again, if you're over the age of 18, please try to act like an adult.

And you're referring to their use of the "Windows Sentinel Monitoring Tool" to get their data? And their "two other exo.repository data points". So, again, how does this prove that people are downgrading? They're using Spyware to check? As I said before, how does this prove anything?

And as I've said before, how do 3,000 people represent 260,000,000?

Like I said before, thats like saying all of California represents the entire US. It doesn't. Such a small number of people on a tech site primarily geared towards the more tech savvy does NOT represent the entire group of users as a whole.

And, again, what are their reasons for downgrading? Maybe they simply liked XP but don't have any irrational Apple-style hate of Vista? Thats always a possibility. Maybe they need XP for work.

It's amazing how people make fun of others downgrading. But at least they have the CHOICE of what operating system to use.

Another question; why do you even come here? If you don't like Apple or their products anymore, why bother? Are you really that pathetic that you feel the need to come here and slag them and their products? Really? I'm sure there's an HP forum to hang out at.

Well, if you actually read my posts you'd know that I love my iPods and iPhone. I have 4 iPods and I have the original 4GB iPhone. They're all great devices.

The only problem I have with Macs would be the fact that their hardware is WAY behind where it should be. When the MacBook was first released 2.5 years ago, it was priced in-line with PCs at that time with a slight premium. Now, 2.5 years later, you have $750 15.4" AMD based notebooks being sold in big box retailers that have integrated graphics that perform on-par with previous generation dedicated graphics, blu-ray, 3GB of RAM, etc. For less than a MacBook with a "SuperDrive" you can get a 15.4" notebook PC that is a more powerful gaming machine than the Xbox360 and especially the PS3.

You have integrated graphics out there now that are just as fast as previous generation dedicated solutions, yet Apple still chooses to go with the slowest of the slow integrated GPUs. Chips that are slower than the dedicated solutions included with the now 3 year old iBook solution.

Apple should have moved to dedicated graphics when they upgraded the MacBooks to Core 2 Duos. At that time the GeForce Go 7400 would have been perfect and kept it in-line with PCs at that time. Then the move up to 8400M GS would have kept it in-line with 13.3" PCs. Now it would be up to the 9300M. The Apple TV gets dedicated graphics. Why can't the MacBook?

That is my only real problem with Macs. If Apple kept their hardware in-line with the price you pay and what other PCs in the same price range offer as far as hardware goes, I wouldn't have a problem. But as of now, you're paying nearly double for the same hardware just because it has an Apple logo on it. The MacBook is about $600 overpriced while the MacBook Pro is literally double the price of an equivalent PC.

http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/...rsus-xp_1.html
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1332&page=6
http://news.cnet.com/Windows-XP-outs...3-6220201.html

Mosx, I know you are smarter than infoworld, but how about the other two? Eh, I don't know why I try with actual proof Vista is slower! You're such a smart guy you obviously know more!

Sigh. Please act like an adult.

Anyway, the first article is a bunch of.. well, I can't think of a polite word to describe it. It's just a guy going on about how he thinks Vista is ugly, that the UI is "bloated" and takes too many CPU cycles, and that UAC pops up too much.

First, hes wrong about the UI. If you're using Aero, it's all being drawn by the GPU. Second, UAC only pops up as frequently as the password prompt in OS X. So I guess he'd hate OS X too, right? In one page he supposedly runs a benchmark, where he talks about old Pentium 3s and Pentium 4s. He goes on and on about how third party solutions to XP are better than built-in system level security solutions in Vista. When he talks about reliability, he goes on about how stable XP is but doesn't mention any of the "under the hood" changes to Vista. He doesn't even mention caching that speeds up your day to day use.

I like the one line he uses too! "Vista addresses problems most customers weren't aware even existed, let alone needed fixing". So what? Microsoft should have just let them go unnoticed until they NEEDED to be fixed? How stupid is this guy?

And back to the performance page. Where he already mis-stated that Vista's UI uses CPU resources, hes trying to say that Vista is 40% slower. Then the benchmark he links to doesn't even have benchmark results? Come on. This entire article is written for someone who hates Vista and wants to convince themselves that their hate is not misplaced. It's ridiculous.

On the hardware compatibility page, he says hes waiting for a "feature complete video driver for his XPS M1710". I guess hes never been to support.dell.com? Because it took me less than 10 seconds to get to the page to download an nVidia driver dated 3/18/2008, version 174.31. He's never heard of laptopvideo2go either? Even the MacBook Pro owners here who run Windows know about that. Thats the best place to get nvidia drivers for notebooks. If he has an ATI GPU, then he can blame AMD/ATI for not providing a driver. It's not up to Microsoft to provide support for all the hardware in the world.

Then he complains about his old Laserjet not working on Vista? If you go to support.hp.com you see that the printer has drivers as far back as Windows 3.1. They also have drivers for Vista.

Then he rambles on about how theres no reason for Microsoft to not support new software on XP. The rest of the article is really just rambling about how he loves XP so much. Ridiculous.

The second link you posted to zdnet uses hardware that very few people have (Pentium D? Come on, nobody bought those) and it doesn't list any real hardware specifications. What motherboard was he using in those benchmarks? What GPU? What drivers was he using? Was it an Intel chipset? If it was, did he have the SATA controller drivers installed?

No real information and, at the time that article was written, the final version of SP1 wasn't available to consumers.

He posts links to two other benchmarks. One, again, gives no hardware information. The second benchmark gives hardware information, but NO driver information! Better yet, he was using a processor at that time that was KNOWN to be defective with a defect that could cause its performance to be cut by half. Lovely.

The third link you posted was to a cnet article that is dated nearly a year old. Not using SP1, not using modern drivers. Better yet, they try to use a very very beta version of SP1, call it "another setback for Vista", and they test on a system with 1GB of RAM!

Here's some more benchmarks, this time Vista vs. OS X:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...25.html?page=4

I like how you don't link to the other pages in the article that show what a joke of an article it is. You link to the page with synthetic benchmarks. You do know that synthetic benchmarks do not reflect real world performance, right? And you realize that Geekbench has alwas primarily been an OS X application, right?

And now for the best part. What version of Geekbench are they running? If they're running the Leopard version then they're comparing a 64-bit app to the 32-bit Windows version! Of course a synthetic benchmark is going to run faster in a 64-bit environment versus a 32-bit environment. Not like a real world application, which would really only benefit from the ability to access more memory.

Whats even funnier about that synthetic benchmark is that they're comparing Macs with physically faster processors to PCs with slower processors.

Oh gee, a computer with a faster processor running a 64-bit synthetic benchmark scored higher than the computer with a slower processor running the slower version of the synthetic test. I wonder why that is!

Seriously, where is the common sense here people?

Where are the REAL WORLD BENCHMARKS? Huh? Let's see REAL WORLD APPLICATION PERFORMANCE on EQUAL hardware. Let's see Handbrake encoding results on both, let's see ffmpeg results on both, let's see Photoshop performance on both, let's see iTunes encoding results on both (though those results could be skewed). Let's see some benchmarks where hardware comes into play, like video playback or audio playback. Let's see some native OpenGL game performance.

Let's see some real benchmarks of real world applications, not of a single synthetic benchmark that is written to heavily favor one OS over the other while being tested on a system with a faster processor and equally paired memory.

If this is all the Apple fans have to prove that OS X is faster than Vista, then they have absolutely no credibility.

Those Geekbench scores don't even give driver information or full configuration information. And the Gateway is using unpaired RAM, so its not running in dual-channel mode. And the scores of geekbench running on the Mac show that theres a configuration issue with the Windows systems.

This is what happens when you have Apple fans who know nothing of hardware or software configuration running benchmarks trying to prove their system is faster.

My friends all have MB refurbs 3 & 4 years old. Still going strong. You get what you pay for

Your friends have 3 and 4 year old refurbished MacBooks?

Wow, so they were able to get MacBooks almost a full 2 years before they were made available? Amazing! Can they get me a 2010 model MacBook now? They seem to have great connections within Apple!

You have fun with those Dells, Crimson Rider. Be sure to get their Gold Support for when they break. Also, get them with the XP downgrade option (usually free) so that you actually get the processing speed you're paying for.

Got some real proof to backup that statement?

The monitor literally shakes if the table is shaking.

My MacBook monitor moves if I move the desk or surface its sitting on.

Comparing that to my MacBook Pro, the quality on the dell is cheap.

Haven't had your MBP warp because of heat yet, have you?

Stop comparing specs and look at build quality. Dells are notorious for bad build quality. Seriously, after switching to Mac Laptops, the dell laptops seems cheap to me. Even at the XPS line, which is a step up from the Inspirons I've owned.

To me, the MacBook and MacBook Pro are a step down from the HPs I've owned. But I'm done with notebooks. This MacBook and the HP I have now will be the last notebooks I own. My next computer will be a custom built PC.

You can't say that Led Zepplin is a better band than say...Bjork, or that Jeff Buckley is worse than Tupac. They are all respectable, but saying one is worse than the other, is saying that you don't know enough about that genre.

Tupac? Theres nothing respectable about rap. Tupac had a couple of good messages in a couple of songs, but for the most part, rap is not even worth listening to. I don't need to hear someone talk about how rich they are, how they degrade women, how they'll beat you up if you disrespect them. Stupid.

Bjork is actually involved with the making of her music. Unlike some of the artists the Mac fans listed ;)

Second, the Philippines has Mac users. There are complete forums for that. Mac may not be open to all Filipinos, but Windows also has LARGER market power, that some businesses view as an industry barrier. The fact that Apple is one of the only companies to challenge Windows makes them a respectable company. They help drive innovation in the industry.

Yes I'm well aware of the fact that the Philippines has Mac users. I was using it at as an example of a relatively good economy that Apple ignores because of the fact that the majority of residents there cannot afford a Mac, or those that can choose not to because of the high price. Even those that are considered "upper middle class" in the Philippines would still have to put out more than a months worth of salary just for the entry level MacBook. So what does Apple do? Lower prices so those who want Macs there can afford them? Or just ignore the market all together because they would have to lower prices and go from ridiculous profits down to good profits?

Apple is just gaining in market, so give the company time. Their software is already provided to college students at less than half costs. I bought leopard for 27.99. That means their is hope for third world companies as well

Apple only gives those discounts for a couple of reasons. First they gamble with the fact that students will see these discounts and buy and become life long customers. Second, they can give those discounts because they have more regular buyers than student/discounted buyers and can maintain their ridiculous profit margins that way.

Radiohead revolutionized their genre, and sound in general. Music is sweeter because of them.

Radiohead didn't do anything. They had one famous song that was in a movie that was only famous because it starred the teen heart-throb at the time! They weren't even truly famous until their music was in "Romeo + Juliet" in 1996. Before that hardly anyone knew them and they almost became one hit wonders.

[mosx]

Interesting to see benchmarks with Macs running OS X and Vista:

Vista:
http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/77641

OS X:
http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/77815


More proof that synthetic benchmarks don't mean anything. If you knew anything about hardware, software, and drivers, you'd know this. Real hardware enthusiasts stopped caring about synthetic benchmarks way back in the Windows 98 days with 3DMark. They don't represent real world performance and they can be easily manipulated. Real world performance tests are the best option.

When's the last time you went to an Industrial or Rock concert, and had them break out Marimbas, upright basses, grand pianos, mandolins, and a bunch of random stuff and play beautiful instrumental pieces for a while?

Every Fear Factory concert I've been to has had real instruments.

Also, I'd like to point out to you (since I'm sure you've never been to a Nine Inch Nails concert, and I'm sure you know nothing about the music besides a couple of songs) that being "Goth," whatever the hell that means, has nothing to do with liking a certain type of music. The second you bring stupid generalisations into stuff like this is the second you lose the argument. There is no validity in saying **** like "Only [insert vague classification of a group of people that I don't like and can twist the definition of to benefit my own argument] listen to this band, therefore they suck."

Sigh. "You lose the argument because you bring up the truth! Shame on you!" Please.

I was a teenager in the 90s. I remember the ONLY people who liked Nine Inch Nails (and Marilyn Manson) were the goth kids who stuck to themselves. While everyone else had universal taste in music.

Also, I'd like to point out that Emo is a sub-genre of hardcore punk that hasn't been active since the late 1990's. It started in the 1970's, and I'd be curious to hear your personal heartfelt definition of the genre.

Today emo is nothing more than whiney people or whiney teenagers who need a slap upside the head from common sense.

Not much I can say about this next paragraph. Basically, your argument is "I hated The Fragile, so Nine Inch Nails sucks." Wrong. And do you have any idea how many adults listen to Nine Inch Nails? Of course not, but even if the number was greater than the kids who do, you'd just ignore that fact.

So thats why The Fragile and every album since The Downward Spiral has been a relative commercial flop?

You should probably re-familiarise yourself with Nine Inch Nails' music, as last time I checked, concept albums that detail a fictional world of artistic opression and the detriment to the first amendment of the United States constitution are not just a "sad outlook on life." They must be, though, because you said it's true...I guess I'll remember that next time I decide to read a book like 1984, as that's obviously just a book for whiny emo teenagers.

Downloaded "The Slip". Twice in fact. Got the MP3s and the FLAC copy just because I could from their website. LIstened to the FLAC copy. Deleted both immediately afterwards.

"Concept album"? Please, don't even try to bring Nine Inch Nails into the same genre as Pink Floyd.

Are you sure you're not thinking about Nirvana? Last time I checked, Grunge was the popular genre of the 1990's that exemplified angst, not Industrial Metal.

At least Nirvana was a real band with real instruments being played.

Oh, please. If you spend $70 to go to concerts of bands you don't like, then you have too much goddamn money.

Who pays $70 for a concert ticket? I know I sure don't.

Around here in southern California, concert tickets cost less than a dinner at Sizzler.

The essence of this argument is a disagreeance. If I list a band you don't like and say they use Macs, you say, "That band sucks. That just proves only sucky bands use Macs." If I list a band that you like that uses Macs, you just say "Well, that's just one of a couple. More good artists use Windows than ones who use Macs." It's like writing "I know you are, but what am I?" on a wall, and arguing with it.

Well, the only bad I like that i know uses Macs would be Fear Factory. But they use Pro Tools so the platform of choice is irrelevant. They could do the same thing on Windows as on OS X. However, if I remember correctly, the one member of the band that does use a Mac has or at least had a 12" PowerBook. At that time that was a legitimate hardware choice.

Edit: By the way, I'm waiting for your comments about Berklee.

I honestly don't know much about Berklee. If they're using Pro Tools then the platform it runs on makes no difference. Just like how Brook's Institute of Photography uses Macs, but they all use Photoshop. The tools work the same on both platforms.

If they're using Apple specific tools then we're in for even worse music in the future than we've had in the last 8 years or so.

[polaris20]

EDIT

I'm done. This guy's got no proof, nothing but opinion delivered in an arrogant, pretentious tone, and clearly knows absolutely nothing about the computer industry. When presented with examples and links, not only does he dismiss them when they don't line up with his OPINION, but he offers no other proof except for his 4 computers and his "friends".

[mosx]

EDIT

I'm done. This guy's got no proof, nothing but opinion delivered in an arrogant, pretentious tone, and clearly knows absolutely nothing about the computer industry. When presented with examples and links, not only does he dismiss them when they don't line up with his OPINION, but he offers no other proof except for his 4 computers and his "friends".


rofl

You post articles with outdated and inaccurate information, some guy rambling on about how ugly he thinks a UI is an inaccurately describing it as a CPU resource hog when it has nothing to do with the CPU, another article that compares unbalanced hardware using a synthetic benchmark with out any real details of hardware and software configurations (not specs) and their own synthetic benchmark was not only unbalanced as well, but it showed different results on the same hardware!

You post BS articles that are just that, filled with BS. Yet somehow I don't know anything? I've been building computers longer than most people at this forum have even owned one.

The links you posted and your reaction to finding out the articles were wrong is THE example of why average people don't like Apple users or Apple itself. People don't like liars and people who act like children when they were exposed as such.

When the articles were proven wrong you should have reacted in a mature manner. Something along the lines of "oh you're right, they didn't give any details" Or "oh they are using older and outdated software and drivers".

Not "OMG THIS GUY IS SO STUPID HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING" because, if that were true, you wouldn't have reacted in such a childish way.

But thanks for playing. This thread will be much better without articles written by people who are trying to convince themselves that XP is better, or benchmarks comparing unbalanced hardware. It's not the first time Apple or the fans have tried to use unbalanced benchmarks though. I remember back in 1999 Apple was trying to say the PowerMacs were faster gaming machines by comparing them with dedicated graphics to low-end Compaqs with integrated graphics.

[Eidorian]

EDIT

I'm done. This guy's got no proof, nothing but opinion delivered in an arrogant, pretentious tone, and clearly knows absolutely nothing about the computer industry. When presented with examples and links, not only does he dismiss them when they don't line up with his OPINION, but he offers no other proof except for his 4 computers and his "friends".
I'm glad you edited down your "I Win" post.

[ayeying]

My MacBook monitor moves if I move the desk or surface its sitting on.

Well, I'm comparing to the two systems I have on my desk right now. The Dell's monitor shakes due to weaker hinges while the MBP is stable with more stronger hinges.

Haven't had your MBP warp because of heat yet, have you?

The system gets hot, but its not to boiling the aluminum. Warping it requires rapid cooling from hot to cold which is nearly impossible to get unless you suddenly pour liquid nitrogen on it. (I'm not a physics major so correct me if I'm wrong)

To me, the MacBook and MacBook Pro are a step down from the HPs I've owned. But I'm done with notebooks. This MacBook and the HP I have now will be the last notebooks I own. My next computer will be a custom built PC.

I don't see how its a step down but thats your opinion.

[Digital Skunk]

People really are taking this whole thread WAY out of proportion.

Not that I am any different when it comes to which camera body/OS/HD ENG Camcorder to use, but after a while it's really not that necessary to beat each and every point/difference between two products down to see which is better.

I haven't found a notebook built tougher than the Panasonic ToughBooks, (yes I have touched one ;) and yes you can drop them and they will still keep on ticking) and the book that is right under those is the MacBook Air (but you can't drop it).

The MacBook's and MacBook Pro's build quality are on par with the PCs I have used. I have never had warping on the MBP from heat or crooked keyboards, and I have never had anything other than slightly larger plastic PCs.

Build quality and longevity in notebooks actually stem from user handling. I don't baby my $h!t and I have NEVER had a computer just fall apart on me.

Once again, I reiterate my original point. To the OP, you CANNOT assume that something should be affordable only because YOU WANT one.

[ayeying]

Build quality and longevity in notebooks actually stem from user handling. I don't baby my $h!t and I have NEVER had a computer just fall apart on me.

I've had. My Compaq Tablet PC literally fell apart for no reason. Never dropped it or what not.

My Dell Laptop had screws falling off for no apparent reason. Had them replaced by dell but they kept falling off after a few months

My 2nd Dell laptop was the best in terms of build quality, didn't fall apart, worked great. The plastic did warp a little near the end of its life (the lid closed at a odd angle, one side would touch the base, the other had a 1mm gap)

All of these 3 systems were used for less than 2 years before I got rid of them

[Eidorian]

I've had. My Compaq Tablet PC literally fell apart for no reason. Never dropped it or what not.

My Dell Laptop had screws falling off for no apparent reason. Had them replaced by dell but they kept falling off after a few months

My 2nd Dell laptop was the best in terms of build quality, didn't fall apart, worked great. The plastic did warp a little near the end of its life (the lid closed at a odd angle, one side would touch the base, the other had a 1mm gap)

All of these 3 systems were used for less than 2 years before I got rid of themThe only hardware I've seen fall apart is when the user treats it badly. Keep in mind I have around 300 users here. The majority of the computers are Dells that I helped order.

[ayeying]

The only hardware I've seen fall apart is when the user treats it badly. Keep in mind I have around 300 users here. The majority of the computers are Dells that I helped order.

I guess I just had bad luck with them. Normally, I expect using a system for about 3 years before changing, like my Compaq Desktop I've used for 3 years before switching, worked great, besides some cosmetic issues, never fell apart, bsod, whatnot.

I don't baby my stuff but I don't abuse them. Don't drop electronics, always put them in a protective back pack or whatnot, almost never use them on bed, etc.

I'm not saying I'll never buy a dell ever again, I just think the build could be a bit better for a more happier (me) customer.

[Eidorian]

I guess I just had bad luck with them. Normally, I expect using a system for about 3 years before changing, like my Compaq Desktop I've used for 3 years before switching, worked great, besides some cosmetic issues, never fell apart, bsod, whatnot.

I don't baby my stuff but I don't abuse them. Don't drop electronics, always put them in a protective back pack or whatnot, almost never use them on bed, etc.

I'm not saying I'll never buy a dell ever again, I just think the build could be a bit better for a more happier (me) customer.It seems that a lot of users have bad luck with hardware around. It's something that I've noticed.

The latest casualty around here was a circa 2000 Compaq Presario that had a dead hard drive. 7-8 years is good for a computer right? Otherwise I'm sending off Dell XPS systems from 1999 of to salvage.

I wonder why a lot of members here expect Windows machines to BSOD at random or with age.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Every Fear Factory concert I've been to has had real instruments.

So does Nine Inch Nails. My point wasn't that no other band does that, my point was that Trent plays 10+ instruments and plays them well, as well as existing as the sole person in charge of the creative future and past of the "band."'

Sigh. "You lose the argument because you bring up the truth! Shame on you!" Please.

I was a teenager in the 90s. I remember the ONLY people who liked Nine Inch Nails (and Marilyn Manson) were the goth kids who stuck to themselves. While everyone else had universal taste in music.

Oh, right, I forgot. You not liking NIN means they're a bad band.

Guess what? I have a universal taste in music. Guess what else? I use Logic. I play the electric bass, mainly in jazz with a combo and my school jazz band, and I have a very advanced grasp of music theory for my age group. I like rock, jazz, industrial, electronic, orchestral, and I do compositions for bands, string orchestras, as well as near-full orchestras. I'm not an expert in music and indeed, that's not my argument. My point is that I like NIN, I'm not a "Goth" kid (Again, I'd like you to define that for me, as even the supposed "Goths" can't define what it means in anything except a historical sense), I don't stick to myself, and I am working to be a college professor in music. What does this all have to do with Nine Inch Nails? Nothing. However, considering the fact that the majority of people who listen to Nine Inch Nails are not kids, but adults, and that most of them do not fit your description, you are wrong there, and no matter how much you claim it, your dislike of NIN doesn't make Trent Reznor an objectively bad musician.

Today emo is nothing more than whiney people or whiney teenagers who need a slap upside the head from common sense.

Emo today is a style. The Emo genre of music is not what you say it is, nor was it ever. What people call "emo" today is actually not Emo music, but instead is an arbitrary classification for obnoxious bands started by 19 year olds that make it to mainstream.



So thats why The Fragile and every album since The Downward Spiral has been a relative commercial flop?

Says the person whose argument before mainly consisted of claiming that someone's mainstream popularity has nothing to do with how good of a band they are?

Downloaded "The Slip". Twice in fact. Got the MP3s and the FLAC copy just because I could from their website. LIstened to the FLAC copy. Deleted both immediately afterwards.

All this says is that you didn't like The Slip. So what? I didn't like it as much as the Fragile, The Downward Spiral, Pretty Hate Machine, or Year Zero, but my or your opinion doesn't objectively define the strengths of a person's music. It wasn't a strong album, musically. Most popular bands don't write strong music. What is important is that it's music that Trent made simply to share (thus being free), and for the sake of artistic expression.

"Concept album"? Please, don't even try to bring Nine Inch Nails into the same genre as Pink Floyd.

Year Zero was indeed a concept album. In fact, it went beyond the music. Heat the CD of year zero and you found a URL to a website which was a piece of an alternate reality game that Trent created and spread through the internet, with fake forums, videos, audio files, and puzzles meant to immerse the fans in the world of Year Zero. You want concept albums? **** Pink Floyd, listen to David Bowie.

At least Nirvana was a real band with real instruments being played.

So is Nine Inch Nails? Where do you get this idea that Trent Reznor doesn't play real instruments? There is no strictly computer-generated instruments in his music. None. And who the hell cares? Legion of Rock Stars (look them up) are a real band that plays real gigs and plays real instruments, but no one's claiming they are musically superior to anybody, let alone Trent Reznor. I'd challenge you to say they are, keeping this in mind: Your argument here only works if every band that plays real instruments is better than Nine Inch Nails (also meaning that Nine Inch Nails is better than Nine Inch Nails). (Legion of Rock stars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2CrF_yXH0k), by the way).

Also, comparing Nirvana, in all their four-power-chordy goodness to any band that is good, is an insult.

Who pays $70 for a concert ticket? I know I sure don't.

Around here in southern California, concert tickets cost less than a dinner at Sizzler.

Concert tickets where? No artist I've ever been to see live has cost less than a dinner, except maybe Dimmu Borgir at Harpos.

Well, the only bad I like that i know uses Macs would be Fear Factory. But they use Pro Tools so the platform of choice is irrelevant. They could do the same thing on Windows as on OS X. However, if I remember correctly, the one member of the band that does use a Mac has or at least had a 12" PowerBook. At that time that was a legitimate hardware choice.

The same computer Trent uses.

I honestly don't know much about Berklee. If they're using Pro Tools then the platform it runs on makes no difference. Just like how Brook's Institute of Photography uses Macs, but they all use Photoshop. The tools work the same on both platforms.

If they're using Apple specific tools then we're in for even worse music in the future than we've had in the last 8 years or so.

It does indeed make a difference. Berklee's FAQ's state that they require an Apple Macintosh computer because the platform is the most widely used in the music industry, and as their goal is to provide students with the resources necessary to prepare them for music in the real world, they wish to use that which will most likely be applicable. It's really nothing special, but your opinion that Macs suck at everything, and no one uses Macs for music if they're a real band or institution is blown seriously out of proportion.

-

[logicsuggests]

The justifications in this thread are so pathetic, it's no wonder apple gear is always overpriced. People should stop defending a company that sells outdated/weak technology in a price bracket where other laptops wipe the floor with them in terms of hardware performance.

The excuses are always oh no "cheap laptop x doesn't have that so the macbook doesn't either"

Integrated graphics "oh I don't play games so I don't need that"

Lame excuses.

[hogfaninga]

The justifications in this thread are so pathetic, it's no wonder apple gear is always overpriced. People should stop defending a company that sells outdated/weak technology in a price bracket that other laptops wipe the floor with them in hardware performance.

The excuses are always oh no "cheap laptop x doesn’t have that so the macbook doesn’t either"

Integrated graphics "oh I don't play games so I don't need that"

Lame excuses.

Thanks for the advice. Now go back and brag on whatever PC site you came from how you put us in our place.

[Digital Skunk]

....

I would have to say that you make the most sense I have heard in a long time.

I guess I am going to have to give up my Final Cut workflow and all my Macs and switch back to PCs based on your trolling statement. :rolleyes:

Seriously, they aren't excuses, they are reasons. Just like many people's reason to grab a PC since they don't need the bells and whistles of a Mac.

What is your problem anyway?

[NT1440]

can we wait a few weeks and THEN bitch about what they dont have?

we all know what the macbooks have and dont have, but seeing as everyone knows a new model is coming out, its old tech. Wait for the new one then complain.


And when you prove something, use fact instead of opinion, and dont talk about the popularity of some band as it has nothing to do with wat software they use.

[logicsuggests]

I would have to say that you make the most sense I have heard in a long time.

I guess I am going to have to give up my Final Cut workflow and all my Macs and switch back to PCs based on your trolling statement. :rolleyes:

Seriously, they aren't excuses, they are reasons. Just like many people's reason to grab a PC since they don't need the bells and whistles of a Mac.

What is your problem anyway?


I have no problem with the operating system as I've mentioned before, my problem is trying wrap my head on peoples complacency with mediocre hardware and the fact that they are willing to defend it based on what exactly? Just because the operating systems good? Yeah we've established that.

I'm not demanding people change their OS, I'm asking why people on these forums are making excuses for poor hardware under the guise of 'reasons' based on some mythical grand apple vision.

[ayeying]

I have no problem with the operating system as I've mentioned before, my problem is trying wrap my head on peoples complacency with mediocre hardware and the fact that they are willing to defend it based on what exactly? Just because the operating systems good? Yeah we've established that.

I'm not demanding people change their OS, I'm asking why people on these forums are making excuses for poor hardware under the guise of 'reasons' based on some mythical grand apple vision.

Mediocre hardware? Apple normally chooses the 2nd to 3rd highest hardware on the list. Dell is what provides Mediocre, still selling a Pentium Dual Core.

[Eidorian]

Mediocre hardware? Apple normally chooses the 2nd to 3rd highest hardware on the list. Dell is what provides Mediocre, still selling a Pentium Dual Core.Is there a problem with selling a Pentium Dual Core on a budget laptop?

Would a consumer benefit more from a faster processor or discrete graphics solution?

[macbooker15]

I've been on these forums, looking at these wars between chappers and mosx. One, I'm sick of it, and two, im a little apple biased. I was reading mosx's posts and was kinda starting to believe him, at least until my mom got her new vista laptop. She got the Toshiba for a little under 800 bucks with a good warranty. I gotta admit, for the price it has great specs. 2.1ghz AMD processor, 4 gigs of RAM, ATI Radeon Graphics, and a 250gb HDD. From what mosx says, based on specs, this should be awesome right? Not precisely.

What I first noticed after setup was the pure amount of bloatware, around 20-25 programs. Most of them were giving me startup prompts. As my mom really wanted to use it, I just deleted their startup entries. LO AND BEHOLD, they come back next time, and some of them have a disabled x button. (Norton) I also dont really have the time to take them off either, between high school and homework. Also, vista is unexceptably laggy. Slow startup, slow shutdown, slow programs. Firefox takes ~7-10 seconds on this macbook C2D second rev. w/2gb of ram. On moms computer, 15~20 secs. Just tested. And dont try and tell me its hardware either mosx, you use that excuse way too much. And speaking of hardware, it came with a bad Audio out port on the motherboard.

And if you can resist, dont use the experience arguement against me. I have been working on computers for serious things for 6 years. I own my own business fixing computers, and im currently building my own:D. Its a work in progress :rolleyes:. My website is currently under construction, but its forums are up: HERE (http://forums.zsecure.biz/).

I would say more, but its really late, and I need to get some sleep.

[Chappers]

Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Edition 64-bit operating system preinstalled; software package included with Microsoft Works 9.0, Adobe Reader 8.1 and Roxio Creator 10 Dell Edition

Can you tell me what other software it comes with. I am considering moving over to Vista with my XP machine. This would be an upgrade - so what does Vista home premium come with. I know someone here won't believe me but I inherited it from my brother-in-law.

I have looked around - even Amazon UK is vague about what you get. Although Amazon often is vague.:)

I did find one thing that more amused me than helped. It seems from the comparison that I can only have more fun with your PC on Home premium or Ultimate.

Regarding bigger screens - its a difficult one. Apple seems to make people happy with the small screen (I like mine). It seems they (Apple) want to cover a range of sizes.

[Digital Skunk]

I'm asking why people on these forums are making excuses for poor hardware under the guise of 'reasons' based on some mythical grand apple vision.

We can ask the same for those who do the same exact thing for a "poor" OS or other poor software or devices. There will always be something that drives users to use something inferior when they could have better.

Price, usability, availability, portability, etc.

My signature shows that I wan a fat 2" thick Apple 17" laptop with sick graphics and expandability... which Apple will never make. I could $4000 on a Dell XPS M1730 and cut in Avid or Media 100 but I have been spoiled by software integration on the Mac. My Aperture library is accessed from all the apps I use, and I can even export entire projects from it to Final Cut with transitions and edits for sound-slides.

I just can't get that anywhere else, so that is my reason. For others it may be Logic, or iLife, or a number of things.

I do understand where you are coming from though. The blind logic that many Mac users have is hard to escape around here. Especially the iPhone forums.

Mediocre hardware? Apple normally chooses the 2nd to 3rd highest hardware on the list. Dell is what provides Mediocre, still selling a Pentium Dual Core.

As Eidorian said, it would be GREAT if Apple did sell a budget machine on the laptop and iMac side of things. Surprisingly, most people buy the $1299 Mac Book or the $1499 iMac, so making cheaper machines won't cut into Apple's sales. Apple will probably cripple them so much that it would basically be a netbook/educational machine as well.

Giving users the ability to have limited (cheaper) processors and better specs somewhere else would be great. Some users just need a laptop to do very simple, and very basic stuff. Even pro shooters need something they can just dump photos and video to while out in the field, then make a copy to an external drive. The processor and features don't need to be heavy for those simple tasks.

[iMacmatician]

EDIT

I'm done. This guy's got no proof, nothing but opinion delivered in an arrogant, pretentious tone, and clearly knows absolutely nothing about the computer industry. When presented with examples and links, not only does he dismiss them when they don't line up with his OPINION, but he offers no other proof except for his 4 computers and his "friends".So if his arguments are so weak then why can't people here refute them? And don't say they have, since if so, mosx wouldn't be able to argue further.

Would a consumer benefit more from a faster processor or discrete graphics solution?Depends on the consumer.

Mediocre hardware? Apple normally chooses the 2nd to 3rd highest hardware on the list. Dell is what provides Mediocre, still selling a Pentium Dual Core.Apple used to use the 1st and 2nd best regular 35 W CPUs for the MacBook Pro and 2nd and 3rd best for the MacBook, but in late 2007 they moved one down to 2nd and 3rd, and 3rd and 4th (in other words, 2nd and 1st lowest) respectively.

[hogfaninga]

Why argue with people who obviously hate Macs? They aren't worth the time or effort. Best to ignore them. They must have sad lives if they get their jollies by telling us how bad our systems are.

[heatmiser]

Why argue with people who obviously hate Macs?

I don't think anyone here hates Macs. It's more than possible to use a system while acknowledging its shortcomings. I do think it's silly for Apple to require the purchase of a $2000 computer to use a 15" screen or something better than 1280x800 on a laptop.

[Digital Skunk]

I don't think anyone here hates Macs. It's more than possible to use a system while acknowledging its shortcomings. I do think it's silly for Apple to require the purchase of a $2000 computer to use a 15" screen or something better than 1280x800 on a laptop.

Amen to that.

Not to mention feel that the lineup is a bit lacking in options when it comes to certain tasks... like gaming or internal storage.

However, it's not okay to want something that a certain brand or company doesn't offer, then think that it's one of the company's/brand's fault/shortcomings for not offering it.

[hogfaninga]

I don't think anyone here hates Macs. It's more than possible to use a system while acknowledging its shortcomings. I do think it's silly for Apple to require the purchase of a $2000 computer to use a 15" screen or something better than 1280x800 on a laptop.

Sure there are people here who hate Macs. That is obvious. Well obvious to many people I guess.

[polaris20]

You post articles with outdated and inaccurate information, some guy rambling on about how ugly he thinks a UI is an inaccurately describing it as a CPU resource hog when it has nothing to do with the CPU, another article that compares unbalanced hardware using a synthetic benchmark without any real details of hardware and software configurations (not specs) and their own synthetic benchmark was not only unbalanced as well, but it showed different results on the same hardware!
You post BS articles that are just that, filled with BS. Yet somehow I don't know anything?

While I find it a bit "bold" and more than a little amusing for you to think you know more than the folks at InfoWorld, ZDNet, CNet, and Popular Mechanics, I guess that's your prerogative. Everyone’s entitled to an opinion, right?

The links you posted and your reaction to finding out the articles were wrong is THE example of why average people don't like Apple users or Apple itself. People don't like liars and people who act like children when they were exposed as such.

Actually, I didn’t have a reaction to them being “wrong”, because I don’t feel that they are wrong, nor do I feel the information is old, because all of them were written with Vista SP1 being a factor.

I've been building computers longer than most people at this forum have even owned one.

I’ve been building computers for awhile too. In fact, somewhere in the realm of 50-60 in the last 8 years, anywhere from a standard desktop to an 8-core server, all of which are still running quite nicely today. I’ve used boards all the way back to the AMD760 and Via KT133a chipsets for AMD, and D815 for Intel.

I’ve been in IT for the last 7 years, and currently work in the Chicago Loop area doing a mixture of Windows administration (2000, 2003, and now 2008), Linux administration (Ubuntu, SuSe, RedHat) as well as using open source or free applications such as Untangle (network security/routing/ firewall/intrusion detection/VPN appliance distro based on Debian) and FreeNAS (network attached storage based on FreeBSD), and even VMWare ESXi, which recently has become a free download.

I’ve tested Vista on no less than 6 different laptop models (Intel Graphics, ATI, nVidia Quadro, GeForce), 4 different desktops up to an XW8600 8-core, and even a little Asus netbook. All up to date with SP1. These were dual booted with XP Pro SP3. At no time did Vista ever perform better than XP Pro in frames per second for video, 3D rendering, video encoding, audio recording, file transfer time, boot up time,program start up time, etc.
This is the basis for my opinion. I feel that while XP Pro (and 2000 Pro before it) is a great OS, I think Vista is definitely a step in the wrong direction. Sadly I don’t think Windows 7 will be much better if at all in terms of performance, because it certainly is not a re-write, but rather building upon Vista.

When MS bought the company that makes Virtual PC, I and many others were hoping for a stripped down complete re-write of Windows, to remove all the bloat that comes with backwards compatibility, and use the virtualization technology to maintain that backwards compatibility. Sadly, it didn’t turn out that way.

Let’s address some of the other points you have brought up, namely the iLife suite. By the very existence of the many forums dedicated to GarageBand, it is not “useless”. By definition “useless” is having or being of no use. If that were the case with GarageBand, all of the bands Chappers listed would not be using it. They indeed find it “useful”.

As far as quality is concerned, while some of it has to do with the internal summing of the application as well as its ability to dither down from higher bitrates and sample rates, quality is largely determined by the interface you’re using for recording. Being a musician myself, I use a Presonus Firebox and an L6 Toneport (for quick and dirty demos). Both are 24-bit 96Khz, so basically DVD quality sound.

Both do quite fine whether you’re talking a free application like Audacity to a higher cost app like Sonar, Cubase, or Samplitude. Of course something from Apogee or RME would be even nicer, you’re talking more money. When it comes to audio interfaces, you generally get what you pay for. I’m not quite sure what you find so terrible about GarageBand while taking into account interface quality. I can understand it if you don’t like its interface and the resulting workflow.

DAW apps are very personal, and everyone has their preferences. I’ve been using Tracktion from Mackie for quite awhile now, and its UI is considered very different from the more mainstream apps.
iWeb is also useful for many people. While it would never be used by a professional web developer, it does indeed suit its intended purpose, that of a simplified way of families designing a website for personal usage. The sites posted by Chappers show that people are using it, therefore it’s not “useless” by definition.

iMovie and iDVD. Currently I use Vegas and DVD Architect for video editing off of a hard drive-based HD camcorder. While I will most likely get FCE eventually for more serious editing, iMovie definitely accomplishes a lot of my needs for video, especially as it applies to my personal life. With camcorders as cheap as $200 these days, many people are using computers to edit their video for DVD, and iMovie and iDVD are a very easy way to do that.

Let’s address the bands we were all talking about. NIN and Radiohead are very interesting bands, and very relevant to this day, I think. Both have a long history of maintaining their artistic credibility while still being commercially viable. Both have done some very interesting things in terms of marketing their music on the web, and being successful while doing it. I can understand if you don’t like their music, and that’s fine, that’s your opinion. I myself don’t like all of NIN’s work, and pretty much like one song from Radiohead.

But to say that those bands are irrelevant is a tad short-sighted.
Let’s talk about system specs. While it is of course true that you can get a PC (laptop or desktop) far cheaper with higher hardware specs than an Apple, I don’t think that’s really the sole factor for buying a computer. Having dealt with Dell, HP, IBM (and now Lenovo), and Gateway, I think build quality and service are enormously important. While Dell Gold Support has always been quick to respond, in my experience they have to respond to often, i.e. their equipment fails too often. Bad drives, bad RAID cards, motherboards, all happening on servers. Bad drives, LCDs, motherboards etc. on laptops.

While HP’s servers, desktops, and workstations have been pretty good, their laptops, in my experience, have been atrocious in terms of reliability. Like I said before, I’ve had to send out a ridiculous amount of them over the past two years. Service has always been very difficult with HP, especially compared to Dell.

Again, this is all in my individual experience as an IT guy for the past few years. Everyone has their preferences.

Apple has always lagged behind in raw speed, for the most part. It is no different now than it was in 2000, and frankly I’m surprised people are still arguing about it. But the fact of the matter is, if someone wants OS X, they have to find a computer in Apple’s product line and buy it. Even now I think Apple has some gaping holes in their product line, namely a lower priced “headless” desktop that can be expanded a bit more than the iMac is capable. But Apple calls the shots, and if you want OS X, that’s the way it is.

I look forward to your response, Mosx. I truly hope you can provide more insight into your background with computers, as well as some links or something to back up your opinions. While it’s fantastic everyone has an opinion, it’s always nice to know what they’re based on in the real world. ;)

[mosx]

Finally, something worth replying too. Its funny how polaris decides to reply here after several days of me not being around. Hoping I won't see it and trying to get the last word perhaps?

While I find it a bit "bold" and more than a little amusing for you to think you know more than the folks at InfoWorld, ZDNet, CNet, and Popular Mechanics, I guess that's your prerogative. Everyone’s entitled to an opinion, right?

As I said, the articles posted were outdated or based on nothing. One article had the guy rambling on and on and on about how much better XP was because you could use 3rd party products to tack on extra features that Vista has built-in. Or how he hated Vista for being "bloated" by using "CPU cycles" to draw the "bloated UI" when the CPU has nothing to do with the UI, its all done by the GPU. He went on and on about not being able to find a "feature complete" driver for his XPS GPU, showing his inability to browse to support.dell.com or www.nvidia.com or www.laptopvideo2go.com.

Other articles compared imbalanced hardware with vastly different versions of software, without giving any configuration or driver information.

Another article used a Pentium D as a test platform, ignoring the fact that the Pentium D was just a dual-core Pentium 4 and was just Intel's band-aid on the problem of getting their butt kicked by AMD at that time. The Pentium D was never modern and should not have been used. Not only that, but no driver or configuration information was given regarding the tests!

IT was that way with all of the articles. And not a single one used the full final version of SP1 with updated drivers for SP1.

So its not a matter of me "knowing more" than other people, its a matter that those who wrote the articles were ignorant or flat out stupid.

Actually, I didn’t have a reaction to them being “wrong”, because I don’t feel that they are wrong, nor do I feel the information is old, because all of them were written with Vista SP1 being a factor.

Not SP1 final. And, again, no driver, configuration, or other type of in detailed information was given. Greatly differing hardware was used in more than one occasion, as well as greatly different versions of software. And you had one guy who complained about not being able to find drivers for his XPS that have been available on support.dell.com ever since Vista was made available.

I’ve been building computers for awhile too. In fact, somewhere in the realm of 50-60 in the last 8 years, anywhere from a standard desktop to an 8-core server, all of which are still running quite nicely today. I’ve used boards all the way back to the AMD760 and Via KT133a chipsets for AMD, and D815 for Intel.

How convenient that you bring that up NOW.

I’ve tested Vista on no less than 6 different laptop models (Intel Graphics, ATI, nVidia Quadro, GeForce), 4 different desktops up to an XW8600 8-core, and even a little Asus netbook. All up to date with SP1. These were dual booted with XP Pro SP3. At no time did Vista ever perform better than XP Pro in frames per second for video, 3D rendering, video encoding, audio recording, file transfer time, boot up time,program start up time, etc.

System configurations? Driver information? How long had Vista been installed? Don't give me that "fresh install" crap either, Vista is made around the idea that you install it and use it for long periods of time. Therefore a fresh install actually performs worse than one that has been used regularly for even two weeks.

If you didn't get better frame-rates in your games, then you did something wrong. Plain and simple. My frame-rates have double in Vista versus XP (pre-Vista SP1) on the same hardware using SP1 and the "Forceware" 177.74 drivers. Compared to XP SP3, my frame-rates are all a good 10-15% higher than XP. Which goes in-line with every single benchmark out there.

What software did you use for 3D rendering? What driver configuration? What processor? Same goes for video encoding. What software, drivers, processor, etc.

File transfer time can't really improve, considering thats generally limited by chip controllers and the speed of the device itself, so tis stupid to mention that.

Boot time on my HP with Vista SP1 and all of my drivers and such installed is about 45 seconds. XP always averaged about 80 seconds on any system I ever had it installed on. My MacBook boots up in 33 seconds. You saw no improvement with application launching? Now i know you either didn't run any tests or you simply threw Vista on there, installed the apps, launched them, and thats it.

As I said, Vista is built around the fact that you're going to use it and use it often. An install of Vista that is a month old will perform significantly faster than one that is a day old. Why? Because it knows your usage habits and it knows what to cache for you.

This is the basis for my opinion. I feel that while XP Pro (and 2000 Pro before it) is a great OS, I think Vista is definitely a step in the wrong direction. Sadly I don’t think Windows 7 will be much better if at all in terms of performance, because it certainly is not a re-write, but rather building upon Vista.

Because of your flaw testing? Its obvious you either didn't perform the testing or you did it completely wrong (as I said, fresh install of Vista will NOT perform as well as a used install).

When MS bought the company that makes Virtual PC, I and many others were hoping for a stripped down complete re-write of Windows, to remove all the bloat that comes with backwards compatibility, and use the virtualization technology to maintain that backwards compatibility. Sadly, it didn’t turn out that way.

What bloat? You want to talk about bloat, let's look at Mac OS X. How many gigabytes of printer drivers and language translations are installed by default? Core processes take up more memory and resources in OS X. Apple's answer for speeding up applications is to throw more CPU cycles at them rather than actually optimizing code. I'm not the only one who complains about this. I was listening to the September 7th podcast of TWiT and Patrick Norton was complaining about how Safari eats up CPU cycles for no real reason. You don't see IE or Firefox doing that.

Let’s address some of the other points you have brought up, namely the iLife suite. By the very existence of the many forums dedicated to GarageBand, it is not “useless”. By definition “useless” is having or being of no use. If that were the case with GarageBand, all of the bands Chappers listed would not be using it. They indeed find it “useful”.

I'm still waiting for those respectable bands. Also, having googled what those particular bands used it for, all they did was use it to record some quick vocals. Why not use Audacity? It's smaller, faster, freeware, and uses significantly fewer system resources while having more advanced options.

As far as quality is concerned, while some of it has to do with the internal summing of the application as well as its ability to dither down from higher bitrates and sample rates, quality is largely determined by the interface you’re using for recording. Being a musician myself, I use a Presonus Firebox and an L6 Toneport (for quick and dirty demos). Both are 24-bit 96Khz, so basically DVD quality sound.

Anyone who is into audio knows theres no such thing as "DVD quality sound". DVDs carry a variety of formats. "DVD quality" could be the uncompressed PCM running at 16-bit 48KHz you find on concert/music DVD Video discs. Or the 16-bit 48KHz 448Kbps AC-3 you find on DVD-A along with the 24-bit 96KHz 5.1 MLP audio track, or 24-bit 192KHz stereo MLP track. Or how about the 1-bit 2.2MHz SACD track? SACDs were actually DVDs after all.

Both do quite fine whether you’re talking a free application like Audacity to a higher cost app like Sonar, Cubase, or Samplitude. Of course something from Apogee or RME would be even nicer, you’re talking more money. When it comes to audio interfaces, you generally get what you pay for. I’m not quite sure what you find so terrible about GarageBand while taking into account interface quality. I can understand it if you don’t like its interface and the resulting workflow.

The main problem I have with Garageband is that people act as if its a "Godsend" and buy into Jobs proclaiming that its "professional quality" when its not. It's fine for hobbyists who just want to play around. But its certainly not a "Godsend" and it certainly isn't professional quality. And its certainly not any better than the $50 app you can get from M-Audio for any Windows PC.

Realistically, considering how over-priced Macs are and how low-end the hardware is for the price, anyone who is even remotely interested in making or recording music is better off buying a significantly cheaper PC (or significantly more powerful for the same price) and buying that $50 M-Audio package.

The other problem I have with Garageband is why do I have to pay for it? Apple fans think its just fantastic that Macs ship with all of this stuff. But I, like most people, don't use any of the iLife apps aside from iPhoto and iTunes. Why do I have to pay for Garageband, iMovie, iWeb, and iDVD? They're all useless to me. Why can't I buy a Mac without them? At least the "bloatware" on PCs (which most don't ship with any more, other than a Norton trial) helps keep the cost of the system low. I'm not paying for that software, it's helping me pay for the system. Plus I can use a free Windows Anytime Upgrade DVD to do a fresh install of Vista without any of it and still benefit from the fact that it was on the system (lower price). But the iLife suite? I have to pay for all of this stuff that I don't need. Why can't I buy a Mac without it? I'd rather have dedicated graphics and a unit thats $200 cheaper than one that comes with an entire software suite that I won't use. Sure I can delete the apps or reinstall without them, but I still paid for them.

iWeb is also useful for many people. While it would never be used by a professional web developer, it does indeed suit its intended purpose, that of a simplified way of families designing a website for personal usage. The sites posted by Chappers show that people are using it, therefore it’s not “useless” by definition.

I asked for him to post sites that were not personal blogs or any kind of personal site. He failed to do so, proving my point that iWeb is useless for anything "real". And he never was able to counter the point that you have to jump through hoops to get it posted to a site that is not Mobile Me.

With camcorders as cheap as $200 these days, many people are using computers to edit their video for DVD, and iMovie and iDVD are a very easy way to do that.

That doesn't change the fact that nearly all camcorders ship with full version software that is higher quality than iMovie and iDVD.

Both have a long history of maintaining their artistic credibility while still being commercially viable. Both have done some very interesting things in terms of marketing their music on the web, and being successful while doing it. I can understand if you don’t like their music, and that’s fine, that’s your opinion. I myself don’t like all of NIN’s work, and pretty much like one song from Radiohead.

But to say that those bands are irrelevant is a tad short-sighted.

The only good thing either band has ever truly done is put music up on the web and made it available the way it should be in this modern age. They haven't done anything else relevant.

Having dealt with Dell, HP, IBM (and now Lenovo), and Gateway, I think build quality and service are enormously important. While Dell Gold Support has always been quick to respond, in my experience they have to respond to often, i.e. their equipment fails too often. Bad drives, bad RAID cards, motherboards, all happening on servers. Bad drives, LCDs, motherboards etc. on laptops.[/quote[

Drives, such as HDDs and optical drives, happen. Thats not a fault of Dell or HP. Thats comes back to Western Digital, Seagate, etc.

Apple, Dell, HP, etc. all buy their LCD screens from the same manufacturers.

Apparently you haven't been around this forum or Apple's own forum long enough to realize that Apple's motherboard.. oh sorry, "Logicboard" failure rate is extremely high as well. If you don't have AppleCare, like me, then you need to cross your fingers and hope that it lasts.

[quote]While HP’s servers, desktops, and workstations have been pretty good, their laptops, in my experience, have been atrocious in terms of reliability. Like I said before, I’ve had to send out a ridiculous amount of them over the past two years. Service has always been very difficult with HP, especially compared to Dell.

HP has been great to me. Each time I had a problem with a notebook they simply replaced it with an upgraded system. No questions asked, no hassle.

Apple, on the other hand, was a complete nightmare to deal with. Heres my story again: MacBook had standard build quality issues. It was discoloring from heat and use, as well as case separation due to heat around the vent, and the optical drive couldn't write DVDs. Send it out for repair. Get it back a week later. Optical drive is untouched, case is new but scratched to all hell. Send it back. A week later I get it back. Optical drive is rendered useless and the case has, again, been replaced and scratched to all hell. Apple agrees to replace it. A total of 3 weeks without a Mac. Replacement MacBook starts to have build quality issues. Battery starts to warp and the case on the palmrest/topcase is separating. Send it out. A week later it comes back all scratched. Send it back out, repeat. Third times a charm. Took 3 weeks. Thats a total of 6 weeks without a Mac in 9 months of owning one. Its too bad all of those trips couldn't change the fact that OS X randomly locks up while Windows does not (on the same hardware of course).

But Apple calls the shots, and if you want OS X, that’s the way it is.

And, quite frankly, OS X isn't worth it. OS X isn't nearly as good as its made out to be. In fact, Apple should be sued for calling it "The World's Most Advanced Operating System" because it certainly is not. Like most people, I'd rather have GOOD hardware ($750 15.4" notebook, 1680x1050 screen, integrated graphics as good as the last generation of dedicated, blu-ray, HDMI) and my own choice of software. I don't want to be forced to pay for low-end hardware (at high end prices) and pay for a bunch of software I will never use. I made that mistake once in buying a Mac and I will not make that mistake again.

All of this was typed on my MacBook.

[NT1440]

And, quite frankly, OS X isn't worth it. OS X isn't nearly as good as its made out to be. In fact, Apple should be sued for calling it "The World's Most Advanced Operating System" because it certainly is not. Like most people, I'd rather have GOOD hardware ($750 15.4" notebook, 1680x1050 screen, integrated graphics as good as the last generation of dedicated, blu-ray, HDMI) and my own choice of software. I don't want to be forced to pay for low-end hardware (at high end prices) and pay for a bunch of software I will never use. I made that mistake once in buying a Mac and I will not make that mistake again.

All of this was typed on my MacBook.

jesus man, do you ever NOT deal in your personal opinion and assumptions?

[kabunaru]

I made that mistake once in buying a Mac and I will not make that mistake again.


Unless Apple released the new Macs with the specs you want to see and then you might consider buying a Mac again, right?

[iWaldo]

Call me crazy, but I'd rather see a 13" MacBook Pro than a 15" MacBook. I like the MB's smaller size, but a more powerful laptop in that size would be super-awesome.

[hogfaninga]

jesus man, do you ever NOT deal in your personal opinion and assumptions?

I hate to defend the guy, but most of the posts here are personal opinions and assumptions. Heck there is literally dozens of threads active right now with kids (see I made an assumption) talking about what the new Macbooks will bring. Please, I can't wait anymore, I think it will be Sept ---, no it will be Oct ---. It will be aluminum with -------------. I find it rather humorous ( when I need a laugh I read those threads), but without opinions why have a message board?

[NT1440]

I hate to defend the guy, but most of the posts here are personal opinions and assumptions. Heck there is literally dozens of thread active right now with kids (see I made an assumption) about what the new Macbooks will bring. Please, I can't wait anymore. It will be aluminum with -------------. I find it rather humorous ( when I need a laugh I read those threads), but without opinions why have a message board?

I just dont like that he states his opinions as fact. And he goes off on completely irrelevent tangents. Mosx, no one cares what you consider "real" music, it doesnt change that it is music.

[iFanaddic]

I dont own a mac (yet!) but everytime I come across an Apple store I play half an hour with them and just before leaving I tell myself: "that computer was freaken fast" I look at the specs and there the same I have at home on my brand new pc. Maybe Apple is late hardware wise, but they do much better with what they have.. But thats my opinion, you dont have to agree!

[hogfaninga]

I just dont like that he states his opinions as fact. And he goes off on completely irrelevent tangents. Mosx, no one cares what you consider "real" music, it doesnt change that it is music.

You just described many of the posts by people here. They sound authoritaritive when addressing the supposed new lineup of Macs when in reality they don't know anything. Most threads, as you know, become irrelevant tangents.

Once again I'm not trying to defend him. I think he can handle things in a more civil matter. That is my opinion.

[Digital Skunk]

Call me crazy, but I'd rather see a 13" MacBook Pro than a 15" MacBook. I like the MB's smaller size, but a more powerful laptop in that size would be super-awesome.

This is what Apple truly needs.

15" Mac Book could take a hike.

13" MacBook with dedicated GPU or 13" MacBook Pro with dedicated GPU and backlit keyboard come to daddy.

[kabunaru]

This is what Apple truly needs.

15" Mac Book could take a hike.

13" MacBook with dedicated GPU or 13" MacBook Pro with dedicated GPU and backlit keyboard come to daddy.

Would not a 15" MacBook or 13" MacBook Pro cannibalise 13" MacBook sales? :confused:

[mosx]

I've been on these forums, looking at these wars between chappers and mosx. One, I'm sick of it, and two, im a little apple biased. I was reading mosx's posts and was kinda starting to believe him, at least until my mom got her new vista laptop. She got the Toshiba for a little under 800 bucks with a good warranty. I gotta admit, for the price it has great specs. 2.1ghz AMD processor, 4 gigs of RAM, ATI Radeon Graphics, and a 250gb HDD. From what mosx says, based on specs, this should be awesome right? Not precisely.

What I first noticed after setup was the pure amount of bloatware, around 20-25 programs. Most of them were giving me startup prompts. As my mom really wanted to use it, I just deleted their startup entries. LO AND BEHOLD, they come back next time, and some of them have a disabled x button. (Norton) I also dont really have the time to take them off either, between high school and homework. Also, vista is unexceptably laggy. Slow startup, slow shutdown, slow programs. Firefox takes ~7-10 seconds on this macbook C2D second rev. w/2gb of ram. On moms computer, 15~20 secs. Just tested. And dont try and tell me its hardware either mosx, you use that excuse way too much. And speaking of hardware, it came with a bad Audio out port on the motherboard.

And if you can resist, dont use the experience arguement against me. I have been working on computers for serious things for 6 years. I own my own business fixing computers, and im currently building my own:D. Its a work in progress :rolleyes:. My website is currently under construction, but its forums are up: HERE (http://forums.zsecure.biz/).

I would say more, but its really late, and I need to get some sleep.

First off, why did she buy a Toshiba? Toshiba is known to be junk as well as being famous for including that bloatware. HP, Dell, and others only include a trial of Norton and a full install of MS Works.

You should search for something called "Norton removal Tool". Norton makes it and it removes any trials or full versions completely with nothing left behind.

Then uninstall the other software and run ccleaner when you're done to clean up the files and registry.

The hardware specs are fine. The problem is that Toshiba is known for their terrible build quality, not honoring warranties, and dropping product support when it becomes clear the product line is problematic. She should return it and get a refund and buy from a better manufacturer, like Dell, HP, Gateway, Asus, or even custom build one online.

You can also blame Toshiba for the preloaded software. No other manufacturer does that. On all of the HPs and Dells I've dealt with, all you have to do is uninstall Norton, delete the desktop shortcuts (all lead to websites) and run ccleaner and its as good as a fresh install.

And like I've said a million times in this thread, don't judge Vista's speed if its rarely been used. Firefox opens instantly on my HP after a fresh boot (which only takes 45 seconds).

[Eidorian]

Would not a 15" MacBook or 13" MacBook Pro cannibalise 13" MacBook sales? :confused:What's with the worry that "X Apple Product" will cannibalize "Y Apple Product"?

[ayeying]

First off, why did she buy a Toshiba? Toshiba is known to be junk as well as being famous for including that bloatware. HP, Dell, and others only include a trial of Norton and a full install of MS Works.

You should search for something called "Norton removal Tool". Norton makes it and it removes any trials or full versions completely with nothing left behind.

Then uninstall the other software and run ccleaner when you're done to clean up the files and registry.

The hardware specs are fine. The problem is that Toshiba is known for their terrible build quality, not honoring warranties, and dropping product support when it becomes clear the product line is problematic. She should return it and get a refund and buy from a better manufacturer, like Dell, HP, Gateway, Asus, or even custom build one online.

You can also blame Toshiba for the preloaded software. No other manufacturer does that. On all of the HPs and Dells I've dealt with, all you have to do is uninstall Norton, delete the desktop shortcuts (all lead to websites) and run ccleaner and its as good as a fresh install.

And like I've said a million times in this thread, don't judge Vista's speed if its rarely been used. Firefox opens instantly on my HP after a fresh boot (which only takes 45 seconds).

Hardware is hardware regardless of which company puts them together. You're pretty much saying that one brand is better then the other but in the PC world, ALL brands use the same hardware. Even apple uses the same hardware as PCs now.

I don't judge vista on how its being used in 10 minutes. I judge vista on a long term use (1+ week at least) and compared to OSX, there is many more flaws in vista then what I see in OSX. Thats MY opinion. Yours is reversed from most of the other posts I've read. While thats fine we agree on different terms, you're severely going off topic stating about the specs and hardware.

From my OPINION on the Dell Inspiron 1525 I've bought for $599, while its cheap, its slow as ******. At 2.0GHz T5750 processor, 3GB DDR2-667 ram, a 250GB @ 5400RPM hard drive and X3100 integrated video card, I expect this thing to run FASTER then my previous MacBook Air with FAR LESS specs. Yet even in a clean install, it still runs slow as ****** even with more ram, more cpu cycles, more hard drive speed.

Many average users don't care for specs. The specs they do care about is the number. They think a 3.0GHz processor is better then a 2.0GHz without realizing an older generation at 3.0GHz runs slower then 2.0GHz current. Same with memory. They think 4 GB is better then 2 GB (while this part is true in many aspects).

[Brien]

Mosx, are you running Vista 32 or 64? I've noticed 64 to be far more fast, stable, and overall, better than XP ever was.

[mosx]

Hardware is hardware regardless of which company puts them together. You're pretty much saying that one brand is better then the other but in the PC world, ALL brands use the same hardware. Even apple uses the same hardware as PCs now.

The hardware can be the best in the world. But it doesn't matter if its not put together well. The MacBook is a case in point example. The case falls apart, the case discolors due to heat, the case design makes things run even hotter than they should, the optical drive and HDD will die premature deaths because of the case design and how its put together. It's a known fact that the people who put together the MB, MBP, and MBA all put too much thermal grease on the CPUs and cooling system, which results in even higher temperatures, leading to higher internal and case temps, which leads to premature component failures.

So the quality of the hardware doesn't matter when its not well built. Apple's entire line of computers are all the proof you need of that.

I don't judge vista on how its being used in 10 minutes. I judge vista on a long term use (1+ week at least) and compared to OSX, there is many more flaws in vista then what I see in OSX. Thats MY opinion. Yours is reversed from most of the other posts I've read. While thats fine we agree on different terms, you're severely going off topic stating about the specs and hardware.

I see far more flaws in OS X. Vista could be improved in a few ways, but OS X has far more things it needs fixed. Like I've asked before, why doesn't OS X have some sort of system wide hardware acceleration for video? This is 90s technology after all. So why doesn't "the worlds most advanced operating system" have something that Microsoft was building into Windows 10 years ago?

From my OPINION on the Dell Inspiron 1525 I've bought for $599, while its cheap, its slow as ******. At 2.0GHz T5750 processor, 3GB DDR2-667 ram, a 250GB @ 5400RPM hard drive and X3100 integrated video card, I expect this thing to run FASTER then my previous MacBook Air with FAR LESS specs. Yet even in a clean install, it still runs slow as ****** even with more ram, more cpu cycles, more hard drive speed.

Then, quite honestly, you're doing something wrong. Keep your drivers updated, keep Windows updated, etc. Theres NO REASON it should be slow. None at all. My HP has a 2GHz Core 2 Duo and it runs circles around my MacBook with a 2.16GHz Core 2 Duo (both have 3GB of RAM).

Many average users don't care for specs. The specs they do care about is the number. They think a 3.0GHz processor is better then a 2.0GHz without realizing an older generation at 3.0GHz runs slower then 2.0GHz current. Same with memory. They think 4 GB is better then 2 GB (while this part is true in many aspects).

Which makes Macs perfect for the ignorant ;) High prices and "cool" designs make them think they're getting the best, despite the fact that you can get something more powerful than the $1,999 MacBook Pro for ~$1200

Mosx, are you running Vista 32 or 64? I've noticed 64 to be far more fast, stable, and overall, better than XP ever was.

I'm running Vista 32. Its what shipped with my HP. It's rock solid for me and faster than XP on the same hardware. Faster than OS X on my MacBook with a faster CPU. While I want Vista 64, I can't justify the upgrade cost just for 1GB more of RAM.

[Brien]

The hardware can be the best in the world. But it doesn't matter if its not put together well. The MacBook is a case in point example. The case falls apart, the case discolors due to heat, the case design makes things run even hotter than they should, the optical drive and HDD will die premature deaths because of the case design and how its put together. It's a known fact that the people who put together the MB, MBP, and MBA all put too much thermal grease on the CPUs and cooling system, which results in even higher temperatures, leading to higher internal and case temps, which leads to premature component failures.
They have to be doing something wrong. Sony seems to be able to squeeze things into cases just as small (or smaller) than the MacBook and I rarely see as many failure issues as I have (my BlackBook was a total lemon).

I got an OEM copy of 64 because Maya 2008 runs quite a bit better under 64bit and to me was worth the cost of the upgrade. I didn't use Vista when it first came out so I never got caught in the driver issues, I haven't had a problem with it, it's a lot like XP but prettier and faster for (most) things - some older programs run slower but I think that might be the 32-bit virtualization. Spore, Sims 2, etc. all run just as fast as they did under XP.

Personally, while I love Mac OS X, I prefer to do any serious 3d work under Vista. The OS X ports of Maya have always had MAJOR stability issues and it's worth it to reboot into Vista then to spend half an hour figuring out why the Channel Control box won't work. (OT: The Mac Pros at school, under 10.5.5, render slower with their 6GB of RAM then an HP with 2GB of RAM under XP. Terrible!)

[mosx]

They have to be doing something wrong. Sony seems to be able to squeeze things into cases just as small (or smaller) than the MacBook and I rarely see as many failure issues as I have (my BlackBook was a total lemon).

I got an OEM copy of 64 because Maya 2008 runs quite a bit better under 64bit and to me was worth the cost of the upgrade. I didn't use Vista when it first came out so I never got caught in the driver issues, I haven't had a problem with it, it's a lot like XP but prettier and faster for (most) things - some older programs run slower but I think that might be the 32-bit virtualization. Spore, Sims 2, etc. all run just as fast as they did under XP.

Personally, while I love Mac OS X, I prefer to do any serious 3d work under Vista. The OS X ports of Maya have always had MAJOR stability issues and it's worth it to reboot into Vista then to spend half an hour figuring out why the Channel Control box won't work. (OT: The Mac Pros at school, under 10.5.5, render slower with their 6GB of RAM then an HP with 2GB of RAM under XP. Terrible!)

Apple's definitely doing something wrong. I've seen more Apple failures in my time than any other brand. Every person I know with a Mac of some sort (shrinking number these days) has had a major failure, aside from HDD or optical drives. While I know of 10 year old low-end AMD-based Compaqs that still function. Its crazy.

I'd love to go 64-bit. I definitely will next year when I upgrade.

Thats quite amusing about those Mac Pros ;)

[Digital Skunk]

Apple's definitely doing something wrong. I've seen more Apple failures in my time than any other brand. Every person I know with a Mac of some sort (shrinking number these days)

You're quite alone in this assesment. Unfortunately for the Apple user that benefits from the hardware and software, the number is growing rapidly. And now when I was able to just walk into the Genius Bar and get an appointment I can't. I have to wait in line behind the tard that can't reset their iPod.

Either way, I see that no one here does any multimedia work, so I will throw my two cents in. Vista and XP suck when it comes to running multiple media apps at one time, and Avid is garbage to run under XP and Vista. Avid editors either go to the Mac, which does render and perform faster than XP and Vista with HD, or they buy a dedicated Avid system.

I understand that certain applications perform better in other OSes, but it's not a general case. No need to bash either one IMHO, since both get work done for someone somewhere.

As for build quality. YES it has suffered. Mainly because Apple's market is growing not shrinking. These cheap keyboards and MM are driving me crazy and I crave for a heavy lifting Mac Book Pro and a tower that is smaller than the Mac Pro... but such is life.

I loved Apple when it was the underdog company, not the fad that it has become.

[Tingaling]

Lots of opinions in the thread, but there is one part of mosx's argument that I agree with. OSX is not the most advanced operating system, most linuxes are. As people say that windows copies mac every year, the same can be said for mac on linux.

However, Digital Skunk provides FAR more valid arguments than mosx, and personally I currently run a macbook pro and a custom built machine dual booted between XP SP3 and ubuntu 8.04. I have a 3.0 ghz E8400 Intel dual core in my tower, 4 gigs of ram, with an 8800 Ultra (planeed on SLIing, but never got the cash to get the second card)

[ayeying]

I wish I was doing something wrong with that Inspiron but I wasn't. I've installed XP after using Vista for 4 days running painfully slow. I'd figured XP running on those spec hardware would be pretty snappy since my workstation at work (3.0GHz P4 w/HT, 2GB DDR1, 250GB @ 7200RPM, Intel Extreme Integrated Vid Card) has several generation old hardware and it was snapper then the Inspiron in Vista... but it isn't. The workstation at work is FASTER then the Inspiron 1525 even under XP w/ nothing but Drivers installed. Even during the XP/Vista installs, its extremely slower then most systems I've used, including the MacBook Air installing the SAME XP or Vista disk.

For the "World's Most Advanced Operating System", that statement can be debated in many ways. I find OSX to be "advanced" vs the Windows or Linux OSes because it is more simple, easier to use and less fuss with drivers and making hardware to work (At least for me, all my cameras, printers, cameras, monitors, whatever. works when plugged in). In Windows, I'd have to wait for driver install, thats the good part, sometimes, it won't find the driver and I have to go redownload the driver and yadadada. Linux is slightly better, but I'm still a newbie in Linux, its similar to Windows, I'd still have to download drivers if they were not included with the OS itself. In OSX, the massive install size has advantages for the average joe user. I know people who have trouble clicking a few "Next" buttons and have windows find the driver itself and install it.

I wouldn't even come close to say OSX is perfect and windows is not, because OSX is not perfect. There might be some backend stuff, like the hardware video acceleration, but I hardly use it or notice that I use it. I get fussed with OSX's features sometimes, same in Vista. However, I still stay in OSX more then I do in Windows because its productive for me. The applications that comes with OSX integrates my files, information. In windows, Vista is probably the only OS that even comes close to what I regularly use in OSX but Vista's still new imo while OSX has matured quite a bit. There's always room for improvement regardless if its OSX, Windows or Linux.

[polaris20]

Finally, something worth replying too. Its funny how polaris decides to reply here after several days of me not being around. Hoping I won't see it and trying to get the last word perhaps?

I don't know about you, but I get a summary each day by default of what threads I participate have been responded to. I knew full well you'd see my reply, and as I said, I expected you to reply. ;) Also, I posted that message back before noon Tuesday.

How convenient that you bring that up NOW.

You're right. Perhaps I should just list my resume in my sig so that it makes my opinion just as valid as yours. :D

System configurations? Driver information? How long had Vista been installed? Don't give me that "fresh install" crap either, Vista is made around the idea that you install it and use it for long periods of time. Therefore a fresh install actually performs worse than one that has been used regularly for even two weeks.

If you didn't get better frame-rates in your games, then you did something wrong. Plain and simple. My frame-rates have double in Vista versus XP (pre-Vista SP1) on the same hardware using SP1 and the "Forceware" 177.74 drivers. Compared to XP SP3, my frame-rates are all a good 10-15% higher than XP. Which goes in-line with every single benchmark out there.

Machines were used over a test period of 3 months, updating drivers to the most recent as they became available (if relevant). While I'd love to list the configuration of every machine we tested, I simply don't have the time to list every spec detail for that many models.

But they were all C2D 2.2Ghz or greater (up to quad core Xeon 3Ghz) and 2GB or more RAM. As I said in my last post, it was a mixture of all graphics cards that we're currently using.

Of the machines we had duplicates of, we used vLite on a couple of them, to see if slipstreaming had a positive effect on it. It did, a little bit. Not enough to use it globally though. nLite had a much more profound effect on the performance of XP than vLite does Vista.

What software did you use for 3D rendering? What driver configuration? What processor? Same goes for video encoding. What software, drivers, processor, etc.

AutoDesk 3DS Max. drivers varied obviously because it was tested on multiple machines, but they were using the most up to date drivers available. Processors varied, as I've already said.

Video was Sony Vegas. Audio was Tracktion 3 and Reaper, the latter running quite well in Ubuntu 8.04LTS via WINE, which was interesting because Reaper under Linux performed as well (track count with stock plug-ins) as XP did, and performance was definitely better, i.e. higher track counts at the same sample rate/bit rate using the same plugs than it was in Vista.


File transfer time can't really improve, considering thats generally limited by chip controllers and the speed of the device itself, so tis stupid to mention that.

That's funny, because it was faster in XP. This just shows a fundamental misunderstanding of networking on your part.

Boot time on my HP with Vista SP1 and all of my drivers and such installed is about 45 seconds. XP always averaged about 80 seconds on any system I ever had it installed on. My MacBook boots up in 33 seconds. You saw no improvement with application launching? Now i know you either didn't run any tests or you simply threw Vista on there, installed the apps, launched them, and thats it.

It's good to see I'm back to being a liar or an idiot. :) But I most definitely ran the tests, because it's apart of my job.

Because of your flaw testing? Its obvious you either didn't perform the testing or you did it completely wrong (as I said, fresh install of Vista will NOT perform as well as a used install).

I'm sorry, how many machines did you test it on again? 2, 3, 4? Wow, that's comprehensive! :rolleyes:

What bloat? You want to talk about bloat, let's look at Mac OS X. How many gigabytes of printer drivers and language translations are installed by default? Core processes take up more memory and resources in OS X. Apple's answer for speeding up applications is to throw more CPU cycles at them rather than actually optimizing code. I'm not the only one who complains about this. I was listening to the September 7th podcast of TWiT and Patrick Norton was complaining about how Safari eats up CPU cycles for no real reason. You don't see IE or Firefox doing that.

What bloat? Hello! You are the only one in the world that I've seen that thinks Vista isn't bloated. There's so much crap code devoted to backwards compatibility it's insane.

And why is it that Tiger runs great on a 400Mhz G4 with a gig of RAM, Leopard runs fantastic on a 1.25Ghz G4 with 1.25GB of RAM, yet Vista is simply unusable on a 2.8Ghz Pentium 4? Just because modern chips run Vista comfortably doesn't make it as efficient as XP.

I'm still waiting for those respectable bands.

They've already been posted.

Also, having googled what those particular bands used it for, all they did was use it to record some quick vocals. Why not use Audacity? It's smaller, faster, freeware, and uses significantly fewer system resources while having more advanced options.

rofl this is getting really funny. Audacity? For someone who bashes GB so readily, you're really showing your very limited knowledge of DAW applications. Audacity is any nothing more than a .wav editor at best, and is far too limiting to do anything worthwhile, even for a quick demo. It doesn't support ASIO necessary for low latency, doesn't support VSTi's, and doesn't support loop files, which are very handy for scratch tracks.

Anyone who is into audio knows theres no such thing as "DVD quality sound". DVDs carry a variety of formats. "DVD quality" could be the uncompressed PCM running at 16-bit 48KHz you find on concert/music DVD Video discs. Or the 16-bit 48KHz 448Kbps AC-3 you find on DVD-A along with the 24-bit 96KHz 5.1 MLP audio track, or 24-bit 192KHz stereo MLP track. Or how about the 1-bit 2.2MHz SACD track? SACDs were actually DVDs after all.


It's true there is no single standard, which is partly why the higher bit rate/sample rates haven't been successful in the market, namely DVD-A and SACD. However if you frequented any recording forums, you'd see that when DVD quality sound is referenced, it's generally 24-bit/96Khz surround.

The main problem I have with Garageband is that people act as if its a "Godsend" and buy into Jobs proclaiming that its "professional quality" when its not. It's fine for hobbyists who just want to play around. But its certainly not a "Godsend" and it certainly isn't professional quality. And its certainly not any better than the $50 app you can get from M-Audio for any Windows PC.

What people? GarageBand never was and never will be marketed as a professional level application. That's what Logic (and DP, and PT) are for. And how much have you used Sessions? Here's a hint; it's crap. If you only want to spend $50 on an audio app, you should be using Reaper.

Realistically, considering how over-priced Macs are and how low-end the hardware is for the price, anyone who is even remotely interested in making or recording music is better off buying a significantly cheaper PC (or significantly more powerful for the same price) and buying that $50 M-Audio package.

Yeah you're right; buy a PC and buy a horrible application for $50, or use the app that came with their computer (GB) of which the files can easily be migrated to Logic Express or Logic Pro when they outgrow GB. :rolleyes:

The other problem I have with Garageband is why do I have to pay for it? Apple fans think its just fantastic that Macs ship with all of this stuff. But I, like most people, don't use any of the iLife apps aside from iPhoto and iTunes. Why do I have to pay for Garageband, iMovie, iWeb, and iDVD? They're all useless to me. Why can't I buy a Mac without them?

At least the "bloatware" on PCs (which most don't ship with any more, other than a Norton trial) helps keep the cost of the system low. I'm not paying for that software, it's helping me pay for the system. Plus I can use a free Windows Anytime Upgrade DVD to do a fresh install of Vista without any of it and still benefit from the fact that it was on the system (lower price). But the iLife suite? I have to pay for all of this stuff that I don't need. Why can't I buy a Mac without it? I'd rather have dedicated graphics and a unit thats $200 cheaper than one that comes with an entire software suite that I won't use. Sure I can delete the apps or reinstall without them, but I still paid for them.

It's quite naive to think that iLife plays a significant part in the cost of a Mac. It's the same as the Linux guys complaining because they buy a PC with Windows on it only to reformat it with their free OS. The OEM pays so little for Windows anyway that removing it would have little effect on the bottom line. It's the same for Apple, especially given they're the manufacturer of both the hardware and the software.

I asked for him to post sites that were not personal blogs or any kind of personal site. He failed to do so, proving my point that iWeb is useless for anything "real". And he never was able to counter the point that you have to jump through hoops to get it posted to a site that is not Mobile Me.

iWeb is not meant for anything BUTpersonal use. A real developer isn't even going to use Dreamweaver, they're going to use Eclipse, VIM, Ultra Edit, or any other text editor. You're quite obviously missing the entire point of iLife.

And Chappers did counter your point about "jumping through hoops". Load it via FTP. You do know how to use FTP, right?

That doesn't change the fact that nearly all camcorders ship with full version software that is higher quality than iMovie and iDVD.

That's not true either. What "full featured" software is included? I asked my friend who's been a salesman at Wolf Camera for 10 years how good the software is, and he said that 90% of the customers end up coming back for either Vegas Movie Studio ($80) or Adobe Premiere Elements (also about $80) because the software included is useless for any real editing. And by real editing I mean anything beyond getting your video into the computer.

My Sony DCR-SR40 came with a really crappy app from some no name company. Not what I consider "full featured".

Drives, such as HDDs and optical drives, happen. Thats not a fault of Dell or HP. Thats comes back to Western Digital, Seagate, etc.

What about the RAID cards and motherboards? Who's fault is that? That's been a bigger problem, and much more of a "white knuckle" event, because they BIOS on the boards/RAID cards have to match what the OS is looking for, otherwise you'll have issues.

HP has been great to me. Each time I had a problem with a notebook they simply replaced it with an upgraded system. No questions asked, no hassle.

Apple, on the other hand, was a complete nightmare to deal with. Heres my story again: {snip}

And yet I ask again; how many computers have you dealt with service-wise? 4 laptops? Drop. In. The. Bucket.

And, quite frankly, OS X isn't worth it. OS X isn't nearly as good as its made out to be

That's your OPINION (bolded because I'm still not entirely sure you understand the difference) and you're entitled to it.

Also, I'm still waiting on some of your background information and something to back up your opinions beyond the 4 computers and your friends.

What was it you said you did for a living? :confused:

Also, how long do you want to keep this going before you figure out what I already know, and that's that we're not going to change each other's opinions?

The funny thing is that I really quite like Windows XP; it's a great OS. I also really like Linux, Ubuntu in particular. Fan boys of all factions annoy me greatly, because they really can't see the relevance of "the best tool for the job".

[Tingaling]

That's not true either. What "full featured" software is included? I asked my friend who's been a salesman at Wolf Camera for 10 years how good the software is, and he said that 90% of the customers end up coming back for either Vegas Movie Studio ($80) or Adobe Premiere Elements (also about $80) because the software included is useless for any real editing. And by real editing I mean anything beyond getting your video into the computer.

Good counter to his point. Most cameras come either with a random noname software, a ****** brandname one, or a 1 month trial of a good one. I (personally) use Adobe products for most of my stuff (i like how they work on the mac, and I'm not too advanced to care about pro editing) Mosx, you do have some decent points, but plaris and Digital Skunk show so much more experience and insight in Mac, windows and Linux than you that I would rather listen to them debate about it.


My Sony DCR-SR40 came with a really crappy app from some no name company. Not what I consider "full featured".
The funny thing is that I really quite like Windows XP; it's a great OS. I also really like Linux, Ubuntu in particular. Fan boys of all factions annoy me greatly, because they really can't see the relevance of "the best tool for the job".

I love this. I can't explain how true this is. Each operating system has it's merits, and like you, I use all three (ubuntu!) I hope not to fanboy about things, because I do like apple products, and I do like Windows XP, but I use ubuntu for so many things because I just like it's feel. I think that you NEED to have XP for some of the programs that run on it, and it's productivity, and I would love to always have a mac just because of the user interface. I love using all three OS's, dont see why other people dont

[polaris20]

Good counter to his point. Most cameras come either with a random noname software, a ****** brandname one, or a 1 month trial of a good one. I (personally) use Adobe products for most of my stuff (i like how they work on the mac, and I'm not too advanced to care about pro editing) Mosx, you do have some decent points, but plaris and Digital Skunk show so much more experience and insight in Mac, windows and Linux than you that I would rather listen to them debate about it.



I love this. I can't explain how true this is. Each operating system has it's merits, and like you, I use all three (ubuntu!) I hope not to fanboy about things, because I do like apple products, and I do like Windows XP, but I use ubuntu for so many things because I just like it's feel. I think that you NEED to have XP for some of the programs that run on it, and it's productivity, and I would love to always have a mac just because of the user interface. I love using all three OS's, dont see why other people dont

I don't know why either. Windows Server is an outstanding directory services platform, mail/collaboration platform, and terminal services platform. Linux, however, kills it for database and web. OS X server doesn't really offer anything over the other two, other than its obvious simplicity for configuration.

The thing with the client OS's as that they tend to overlap more in terms of functionality. Hence the heated debate. :D

[Shagrat]

This is the most entertaining thread I have seen in a long time! In much the same way as a train wreck, or a motorway ("freeway" to you guys in the US) multiple crash.

MOSX will continue in this vein until the cows come home.

Why feed the troll???

Just ignore him, and he will go away. There must be plenty of WinXP/Vista/HP/ (whateva!) Fanboy forums he can go to to slag off Macs and all things Apple.

We don't need these tedious in the extreme posts here all the time.

Criticism is fine, but really!!!!

[polaris20]

This is the most entertaining thread I have seen in a long time! In much the same way as a train wreck, or a motorway ("freeway" to you guys in the US) multiple crash.

MOSX will continue in this vein until the cows come home.

Why feed the troll???

Just ignore him, and he will go away. There must be plenty of WinXP/Vista/HP/ (whateva!) Fanboy forums he can go to to slag off Macs and all things Apple.

We don't need these tedious in the extreme posts here all the time.

Criticism is fine, but really!!!!

I really don't think he's a troll, despite me calling him one previously. The more I think about it, the more I think that he really believes what he's saying.

It's just that I (and many others) disagree with him. And we've yet to reach the point where we can agree to disagree.

[Tingaling]

I really don't think he's a troll, despite me calling him one previously. The more I think about it, the more I think that he really believes what he's saying.

It's just that I (and many others) disagree with him. And we've yet to reach the point where we can agree to disagree.

In his defense, he is acting just like alot of people in this thread. He believes that he is right, and UNLIKE the others that just post "ur stupid! mac rulez!" he is backing it up with semivalid arguments. He is a windows fanboy, just like all of the apple fanboys (which by percentages of OS users, there are WAY more of than windows fanboys) He's just outspoken and has napoleon complex right now.

EDIT: oh happy day! post 200, this debate is very long

EDIT2: Looking back over the thread I noticed a very disturbing trend. A mention of "preinstalled" software. Arguments against this is: 1) you have to ask for iWork to be on, along with aperature and the works. 2) Ever heard of CDW? It's a very successful company that makes money by selling computers (mac's and PC's) with preinstalled software (It is usually used for buisnesses) CDW also removes alot of bloatware 3) You can get so many apps preinstalled from different manufacturers that it really shouldn't be a factor 4) How much work does it really take to download/install something? Really, i want to know how hard it is to do that. Someone prove to me that it is extremely hard to do and I will listen to them.

As you can see, I am not arguing either side, merely stating my opinions and not trashing anyone else's (except mosx's, but he's not really sane)

[Cygo]

Radiohead, Oasis, and Justice. Three bands that have had their careers either go downhill greatly over the last decade or are completely unknown. That basically proves MY point. Besides that song for "Romeo + Juliet" 12 years ago, what else has Radiohead ever been known for? What has Oasis ever been known for?

mosx you make some decent points, but man this point makes you sound like an idiot.


All of these 3 bands have had their careers grow. ESPECIALLY radiohead. its apparent you don't keep up with things like this, and just spew babble. like many of your points

[alphaod]

Okay people, this thread is getting off-topic and flaming is starting to appear predominantly.

Chill out peeps.

[polaris20]

Okay people, this thread is getting off-topic and flaming is starting to appear predominantly.

Chill out peeps.

lol that's an understatement!