Canon 5D MkII Announced!

[Ryox]

Addition of Canon’s EOS Integrated Cleaning System, with a new Fluorine coating on the low-pass filter

Larger 3.0” Clear View LCD with VGA resolution, a 170° angle of view and anti-reflective coatings

Improved menu system including Quick Control Screen for more direct access to common settings

Automatic peripheral illumination correction, utilising detailed EF lens information to optimise JPEG images straight out of the camera

Magnesium alloy construction with additional environmental protection

UDMA memory card compatibility.

New 21.1 Megapixel CMOS sensor with improved EOS Integrated Cleaning System (E.I.C.S.)

New Full HD 1080 resolution movie recording

3.9 frames per second continuous shooting

High performance DIGIC 4 providing superb image quality

Maximum 310 large JPEG images in a single burst with a UDMA card

3.0” VGA (920k dots) Clear View LCD

ISO 100-6400 (expansion from 50 up to 25,600)

9 AF points + 6 Assist AF points

[ksz]

And the price is $2699 in the US. This is just amazing...contingent on the image quality holding up.

A 21MP FF sensor body for $2700!

The last Canon 21MP body was $8000. So much for those who argued that FF sensors would not come down in price any time soon.

If image quality holds up, I will keep my Nikon D200 for DX and purchase the Canon 5D MkII for full frame.

12 minutes of HD video at 30fps (4GB filesize limit), STEREO sound, and MPEG-4.

98% viewfinder.

Will be available end of November.

[Westside guy]

If Canon actually provides a decent ISO 25600 in a 21 MP sensor - good for them! I look forward to the photos from the shoot-outs...

And HD movie mode. I guess I still don't get it, but I'm old. :D

[Chundles]

The Powershot G10 has also been announced - awesome P&S to go with the crazy-good 5D MkII.

[Westside guy]

AF and shutter seem a trifle underwhelming - but that's Canon being Canon, and protecting its high-end cameras from any possible cannibalization in sales.

It'll be interesting, over time, to see if that new fluorine coating makes a big difference regarding dust on the sensor.

[rouxeny]

Sweet!

21 MP, pretty amazing.

The fps is a bit low still, but I guess it's understandable.

Now when's it actually going to be available?

[Lone Deranger]

Aah.... the 5D Mk II at last!!

This camera with the newly announced CZ Distagon T* 2.8/21 (http://www.zeiss.com/C1256A770030BCE0/WebViewAllE/DDF7CD30A02E840BC12574C5004278BF) will make for the ultimate landscape photography kit. :D

[robbieduncan]

Shame the UK price is absolutely ridiculous. £2300! The US price translated to UK with VAT then added is only £1776. I know this is the same gripe as ever but that's a huge markup on the US price.

[Hmac]

I was a little surprised at the specs, especially the AF and shutter, no grip, same faulty mirror mechanism at the 5D, etc. It seems like Canon thinks that when it comes to marketing, megapixels are still the name of the game.

We'll have to see actual images, but spec-wise, this isn't the D700-killer that Canon users were anticipating. Disappointment and apologists are running rampant on the Canon forums.

The 5D MkII being a little "low-level", Nikon has to to be wondering what the follow-on is going to be. I don't think they have to worry about the 5D MkII, but they should be wondering what the Mark IV's are going to be like...

[OreoCookie]

So the rumors were true and Canon did shift the niche of the 5D from low noise to high MP. The D700 and 5D Mark II don't seem to be competitors. It'll be interesting to see what the noise is like with 20+ MP at ISO25,600 … :D

@Hmac
What do you mean by `same faulty mirror mechanism'?

[robbieduncan]

@Hmac
What do you mean by `same faulty mirror mechanism'?

Quite a few 5Ds suffered mirror failure well short of the expected actuations. The mirrors literally fell off. Something to do with the glue used to attach them!

[OreoCookie]

Quite a few 5Ds suffered mirror failure well short of the expected actuations. The mirrors literally fell off. Something to do with the glue used to attach them!
I see.
(Since I'm a Nikon guy, I don't pay so much attention to this.)

So how do we know Canon still uses the same mechanism?

[Col127]

supposed to be end of november for shipping! list price for body is $2699 US

Sweet!

21 MP, pretty amazing.

The fps is a bit low still, but I guess it's understandable.

Now when's it actually going to be available?

yeah that looks amazing :) i wonder how fast it's raw shooting is...

The Powershot G10 has also been announced - awesome P&S to go with the crazy-good 5D MkII.

[Edge100]

The 5D MkII being a little "low-level", Nikon has to to be wondering what the follow-on is going to be. I don't think they have to worry about the 5D MkII, but they should be wondering what the Mark IV's are going to be like...

Exactly. While there is still lots to differentiate between a 5DmkII and a 1Ds mkIII, the price gap is so huge that Canon will be forced for come up with something spectacular for the 1Ds mkIV.

Still, we'll have to see what the noise performance is on this thing. If it's passable at >6400 ISO, that will still be a huge stpe forward for Canon.

EDIT: And let's not forget that FF for $2699MSRP is absolutely ridiculous. Hopefully this drives down the price of used 5Ds even more (although this was already in some ways factored into the current price of used 5Ds), and I'll be able to pick up the mkI for ~$1100 or so.

[andrewdale]

AF and shutter seem a trifle underwhelming - but that's Canon being Canon, and protecting its high-end cameras from any possible cannibalization in sales.

See, and I've heard so many people say that they didn't want to buy the D700 or D3 because of how similar they were in specs but such a gap in price, all for a full-sized body.

Maybe Canon jips on some specs, but it keeps their business running quite well to my ears.

[Digital Skunk]

AF and shutter seem a trifle underwhelming - but that's Canon being Canon, and protecting its high-end cameras from any possible cannibalization in sales.

Agreed. I was upset with the first 5D since it was basically a Rebel with a full frame sensor in it. The update is amazing but that shooting speed and autofocus makes me a bit upset. Also, to those that say the D700 and 5D don't compete, I agree to an extent. The D700 is certainly a much faster camera in AF and shooting speed, great for the journalist/sports shooter and depending on your shooting style a wedding photographer.

It does in a way compete because everyone that can't look beyond the specs will see two full framed cameras and say, "This one's better!" without much thought.

If Canon actually provides a decent ISO 25600 in a 21 MP sensor - good for them! I look forward to the photos from the shoot-outs...

And HD movie mode. I guess I still don't get it, but I'm old. :D

I don't get it on such a high end camera myself. Glad that it's full HD, but it seems to be another gimmicky feature for the pro shooter. Since the biggest thing to watch for in video is sound, and no SLR will have the proper connections for good audio.

The benefit for having HD video in an SLR is the cheap tele and specialty lenses, but with no good audio all we will have are silent films or crappy skate videos with EMO music playing in the background.

[robbieduncan]

Since the biggest thing to watch for in video is sound, and no SLR will have the proper connections for good audio.

The 5DII has an input for external stereo mics...

[miloblithe]

Agreed. I was upset with the first 5D since it was basically a Rebel with a full frame sensor in it.

I understand what you mean, but it's not basically a Rebel. If anything, it's basically a x0D with a full frame sensor in it, which is a significant difference.

$1100 for a 5D Mark 1 is still a long way off, I'd wager. More like $1500 at best. It's still a great camera and still has no competition (sub $2000 full frame). For most people, $1000 is a lot of money.

[Edge100]

$1100 for a 5D Mark 1 is still a long way off, I'd wager. More like $1500 at best. It's still a great camera and still has no competition (sub $2000 full frame). For most people, $1000 is a lot of money.

Yeah, the reduction in the price of used 5Ds has already taken into account the imminent arrival of the mkII. Not sure we'll see a huge cut in price in the near future beyond normal depreciation. Still, $2600 for FF with substantial new features (again, let's see how good it is at ISO6400 and higher) might make a lot of people sell their mkI.

[jessica.]

If Canon actually provides a decent ISO 25600 in a 21 MP sensor - good for them! I look forward to the photos from the shoot-outs...

And HD movie mode. I guess I still don't get it, but I'm old. :DI don't get HD movie mode either. Perhaps on the D90, it being considering a "prosumer" camera. On the 5D? Not so much.

Sweet!

21 MP, pretty amazing.

The fps is a bit low still, but I guess it's understandable.

Now when's it actually going to be available?
How is the FPS being low "understandable"? Though as someone already stated, it is Canon being Canon and they need to ensure they won't cannibalize their pro line.
The 5DII has an input for external stereo mics...
Yeah but please! If you need/want to record in HD you're going to want more than 12 minutes of video and this is a digital still camera. Go out and buy a real HD camera. It's a gimmick ... first Nikon and now Canon. Soon enough I guess we're going to buy all-in-one cameras. I'd rather have say less noise than the option to record in HD for 12 whole minutes.

[robbieduncan]

I'd rather have say less noise than the option to record in HD for 12 whole minutes.

I don't disagree at all. I was simply posting the facts. The 12min thing is due to buffering/write speed on current UDMA flash cards. The actual hard limit is 29 mins 59 seconds. This is because the EU impose a higher rate of import duty on cameras that can record 30 mins or more :rolleyes:

[jessica.]

I don't disagree at all. I was simply posting the facts. The 12min thing is due to buffering/write speed on current UDMA flash cards. The actual hard limit is 29 mins 59 seconds. This is because the EU impose a higher rate of import duty on cameras that can record 30 mins or more :rolleyes:

Oh I know it wasn't an attempt to somehow make the whole HD recording thing more handsome to consumers. I was just saying that it is ridiculous (not your statement the idea of attaching a mic). That said, I had no idea about the import duty deal. That is equally absurd!

[Ryox]

Well I'm buying one :D

[-hh]

So the rumors were true and Canon did shift the niche of the 5D from low noise to high MP. The D700 and 5D Mark II don't seem to be competitors. It'll be interesting to see what the noise is like with 20+ MP at ISO25,600 … :D

Well, at 21MP, it definitely means that the waning horsepower of my 2003 vintage G5 PowerMac also needs to be included in the total 'upgrade' budget.


And HD movie mode. I guess I still don't get it, but I'm old. :D

I find it to be interesting on two fronts. The first is that for my UW photography, I've been debating still-vs-video for several years. With my Nikonos malfunction last November and shooting the Kona Manta Ray night dive with the video mode on a P&S, this internal debate/struggle continues, but the 5Dmk2 has the potential to have my cake and eat it too ... well, assuming that I can find an appropriate lighting system that can also do both; I'll have to send an email off to Ikelite :D

Well I'm buying one :D

Its the event that I've been waiting for before deciding on how to upgrade to my 35mm underwater camera system. At first blush, it looks very promising and real world reviews of its performance will be available before anyone ships an UW housing, so I have the luxury of letting the initial burst of purchases pass.

FWIW, as per dpreview, the body-only prices are: US: $ 2,699, EU: € 2,499, UK: £ 2,299. While the UK price is underwhelming, at the current $-€ exchange rate, the EU version in US Dollars is interestingly $1666.

EDIT: Oops Alert! Got the exchange rate backwards. € 2,499 would be US$ 3,750.

If I were to buy the camera in the EU, I'd probably have a local VAT on top of that, but as I depart, I can file for a refund on that, correct? From there, it looks like I'd have to pay a US Customs Duty of 3% of the amount in excess of the standard $800 deduction, which would be around $25. If this math works, I'm looking for some 'how to' advice on the practicality of buying it during my next business trip to Europe.


-hh

[robbieduncan]

If I were to buy the camera in the EU, I'd probably have a local VAT on top of that

I'm pretty sure that EU prices should include VAT. UK prices certainly do as do shop sticker prices elsewhere in the EU.

[wheezy]

I'm buying one. I've been waiting (like a lot of people) for this to come out. I'm fine with 9 focus points, I'd go nuts having to scroll thru 50 or however many they put on some of those cameras. For what I'll do with this, this camera hits all the right places.

And whoever pre-judged about the same mirror... come on. Seriously? It's a piece of crap because a few 5D had mirror problems, so this one is the same?

PC Magazine is stupid. Here's one paragraph from their article. Who can spot the mistakes?

"Other improvements to the Mark II include a sharp jump from 12.8 to 24 megapixels, plus the inclusion of a Digix 4 processor that allows captures of 3.9 images per second at the highest resolution. To complement its video capture, the camera will have a built in microphone for mono audio recording but will have an audio input to attach microphones. The DSLR will have an HDMI out as simple digital connection for playing back pictures and video on HDTV's." Link (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2330520,00.asp)

[Westside guy]

We'll have to see actual images, but spec-wise, this isn't the D700-killer that Canon users were anticipating. Disappointment and apologists are running rampant on the Canon forums.

People can be a little ridiculous in their expectations (meaning the "Canon forums" you refer to - not you). :D Canon did tease folks a bit with that "eclipsing the competition" advert, admittedly; but what do people expect for $3K and under??

[ksz]

I'm buying one. I've been waiting (like a lot of people) for this to come out. I'm fine with 9 focus points, I'd go nuts having to scroll thru 50 or however many they put on some of those cameras. For what I'll do with this, this camera hits all the right places.

And whoever pre-judged about the same mirror... come on. Seriously? It's a piece of crap because a few 5D had mirror problems, so this one is the same?
I agree. Analyzing my shooting habits over the past 2 years, I've noted the following:

1. I used high FPS on my D200 only once.

2. I don't shoot sports (I prefer to watch it on TV).

3. About 50% of my images are of landscapes and cityscapes. No need to worry about AF flexibility here.

4. About 25% are of family and friends. Face-detect AF is a good addition to the 5D MkII.

5. The remaining 25% are candid shots from lots of business trips. A number of these were taken from a moving vehicle, so high-ISO (in order to use high shutter speed) with low-noise will be welcome.

For those worrying about large file sizes, the 5D MkII has two RAW modes: full 21mp and a smaller 10mp. The 10mp RAW, however, is not taken from the inner 10 megapixels (i.e. crop sensor wanna-be), but from the full frame (at least that's my understanding).

But most of all, it is going to be image quality that wins me over. If Canon's press release is correct in saying that the 5D MkII's image quality is the best of any EOS camera to date, then it's virtually a done deal. Canon has historically had the best noise suppression algorithms (which preserve detail), best per-pixel sharpness, and very pleasing color tones. A jam packed portfolio of features is ultimately self-defeating if image quality is sub-par.

[-hh]

If you need/want to record in HD you're going to want more than 12 minutes of video and this is a digital still camera. Go out and buy a real HD camera. It's a gimmick ... I'd rather have say less noise than the option to record in HD for 12 whole minutes.

YMMV, based on your applications and preferences.

For example, what I noticed about the video mode specifications is that this "12 minutes" is apparently the recording limit for just a single clip. I don't think that anything stops you from hitting stop at 11:59 and then starting another 11:59 long clip virtually immediately.

As such, the question of video practicality is based on if a 12 minute single-shot scene is long enough for you (IMO, I think it is), and the technical questions of if you can buy a large enough capacity CF card for your total duration of recording desires.


Secondly, I think that I might have caught somewhere a technical comment about taking a still image and having video recorded immediately following...?

If I read this correctly, this is very interesting and promising ... and if they did it right, with a buffer loop and variable timing trigger, it has huge "never miss another shot" value in sports-action photography.

Today, the 5Dmk2 might not have this as a feature, but because it clearly has commercial utility ("no more missed shots") and the technology already exists (Vision Research laboratory cameras since at least 2003), this will eventually come about. The only questions are how soon, and if this bridge hybridization of still with video continues.


-hh

[Westside guy]

For those worrying about large file sizes, the 5D MkII has two RAW modes: full 21mp and a smaller 10mp. The 10mp RAW, however, is not taken from the inner 10 megapixels (i.e. crop sensor wanna-be), but from the full frame (at least that's my understanding).

Now THAT'S interesting. Does anyone have more info about that? I wonder what exactly they're doing? Maybe it's a lossy RAW mode?

[-hh]

I'm pretty sure that EU prices should include VAT. UK prices certainly do as do shop sticker prices elsewhere in the EU.

Considering that I got the exchange rate backwards, I think that my inquiry is a moot point...unless the VAT rates are incredibly high (like 30%).


-hh

[robbieduncan]

Now THAT'S interesting. Does anyone have more info about that? I wonder what exactly they're doing? Maybe it's a lossy RAW mode?

My understanding is that sRaw is pixel binned to give a lower pixel count. You get a 10Mp image from a 21Mp sensor. Less pixels = smaller file size. I should also mean lower noise, although you could get the same effect by resizing later. This won't allow more continuous shots in RAW mode though: the camera still needs to read and process (for the binning) all 21Mp.

Considering that I got the exchange rate backwards, I think that my inquiry is a moot point...unless the VAT rates are incredibly high (like 30%).


-hh

Well UK is 17.5%. I think some EU countries are a little higher. I was very surprised at you're USD number...

[cube]

Now the question is: does it autofocus in movie mode?

[dllavaneras]

That is one attractive spec list! I find myself drooling. :P

[Westside guy]

Now the question is: does it autofocus in movie mode?

Rob Galbraith says it does some basic white balancing and "rudimentary" auto focus during movie mode - so definitely a step up from the D90 in that regard.

It also has an external stereo jack for a microphone.

[Digital Skunk]

The 5DII has an input for external stereo mics...

I have read that it has input for external mics, haven't found anywhere that says they are stereo. Either way XLR or at least quarter inch is the way to go, and how would you attach a shotgun to that body?

I understand what you mean, but it's not basically a Rebel. If anything, it's basically a x0D with a full frame sensor in it, which is a significant difference.

Besides the frame, it's essentially a Rebel with a full frame sensor. Not taking anything away from camera's IQ mind you. Also, I am talking about the older 5D, the new one seems a much better improvement.

[dllavaneras]

Besides the frame, it's essentially a Rebel with a full frame sensor.

I'd love my Rebel if if kept its APS-C sensor and gave me all the other options the 5D does ;)

[robbieduncan]

I have read that it has input for external mics, haven't found anywhere that says they are stereo. Either way XLR or at least quarter inch is the way to go, and how would you attach a shotgun to that body?

Mic input shown in a picture here (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/page6.asp). It's a 3.5 jack so not what you want. Rob Galbraith (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-9316-9607) claims it's stereo.

As to where you'd attach it? I dunno? Gaffa tap :p

[Digital Skunk]

Mic input shown in a picture here (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/page6.asp). It's a 3.5 jack so not what you want. Rob Galbraith (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-9316-9607) claims it's stereo.

As to where you'd attach it? I dunno? Gaffa tap :p

Yeah, I saw the input, but Rob was the only one saying it was stereo.

Gaffa tap is definitely the shooters best friend whether it be stills or video. These new SLR won't replace my Panasonic, but they do have some nice features as dual format shooters.

[robbieduncan]

but Rob was the only one saying it was stereo.

Engadget also claim it's stereo (http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/17/21-1-megapixel-canon-eos-5d-mark-ii-with-full-frame-hd-video-ann/). I'm pretty sure I saw claims on other sites too, but I don't really have time to hunt them down :o

[wheezy]

But most of all, it is going to be image quality that wins me over. If Canon's press release is correct in saying that the 5D MkII's image quality is the best of any EOS camera to date, then it's virtually a done deal. Canon has historically had the best noise suppression algorithms (which preserve detail), best per-pixel sharpness, and very pleasing color tones. A jam packed portfolio of features is ultimately self-defeating if image quality is sub-par.

That's the key. All the new features and gimmicks aside, IQ still needs to be the top seller. It supposedly has a better RGB filter in front of the sensor giving it better sensitivity to light and colors, claiming it's the best over all, including their top 1D bodies. You don't make that claim and then deliver a sub-standard product. Canon isn't this season's UCLA Football team.

[lucero1148]

Being able to film a 12 minute clip is a great feature for a photojournalist. I can see where having that feature would be a valuable asset for someone working on a news story and be able to shoot stills then do a quick video clip of an event. You wouldn't use this camera for making a full length feature or documentary film but for video clips with excellent optics. The audio would suck but it would be sufficient for id of what you're taking at the moment or short running commentary. You wouldn't need on site pro audio for situations like this as the clips would most likely be supplemental and dubbed anyway with a studio voice track.

This won't replace video cameras but its a great little tool to add in a photojournalists kit. Possibly wedding photographers would find this useful as well?
Patrick

[Digital Skunk]

.....

Good video needs good audio 99% of the time. For journalists it's a must. The stereo jack helps the 5D but it's nothing that would help a journalist making even a 1 minute clip.

The D90 just won't cut it, but it is a consumer camera. Either way both body's video capabilities are great, but won't be able to handle any professional shooting in the conventional sense.

[miloblithe]

Besides the frame, it's essentially a Rebel with a full frame sensor. Not taking anything away from camera's IQ mind you. Also, I am talking about the older 5D, the new one seems a much better improvement.

Sorry, I don't really get what you're saying. The 5D (and 5D mark II) have a full-frame sensor and a regular size body similar to the x0D series, which is significantly larger than the Rebel series. They lack scene modes, have a top LCD in addition to the back one, have a rear control dial and a control layout similar to the x0D series. They have a far more durable shutter, a pentaprism instead of a pentamirror. They lack a pop-up flash. They have a much greater level of custom settings.

I don't really see what they have in common with the Rebel series at all.

[Digital Skunk]

I don't really see what they have in common with the Rebel series at all.

I mean the shooting speed, autofocus, and lack of weather sealing.

And i just read that they didn't change the AF from the 5D but they did add some weather sealing.

[seenew]

I mean the shooting speed, autofocus, and lack of weather sealing.

And i just read that they didn't change the AF from the 5D but they did add some weather sealing.

in that case it is not 'essentially a Rebel'. It is more similar to the x0d and 1 series than a Rebel. The Rebel series are toys in comparison. (I own both a 350d and a 5d)

[tonie]

man this is a nice camera. i hope the AF is at least two times better than the last or at least like the 1d II focus :)

[bigandy]

Love the sound of this, but the UK price is just horrific.


Mic input shown in a picture here (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/page6.asp). It's a 3.5 jack so not what you want. Rob Galbraith (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-9316-9607) claims it's stereo.

As to where you'd attach it? I dunno? Gaffa tap :p

Potential solution (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=beachtek_dxa-2s)...?

[Over Achiever]

Secondly, I think that I might have caught somewhere a technical comment about taking a still image and having video recorded immediately following...?

If I read this correctly, this is very interesting and promising ... and if they did it right, with a buffer loop and variable timing trigger, it has huge "never miss another shot" value in sports-action photography.

-hhI believe I also read that when one takes a still image during the video, there will be a 1 second gap in the video.

[Kebabselector]

Love the sound of this, but the UK price is just horrific.

It's cheaper than the original 5D was, anyway it'll be sub £2k in 3-4 months.

Why rush into it, let others beta test the camera for you.

[troyhark]

The benefit for having HD video in an SLR is the cheap tele and specialty lenses, but with no good audio all we will have are silent films or crappy skate videos with EMO music playing in the background.The major benefit for many people will be the large capture sensor and the look of resulting image. This is bigger than the RED sensor, though not as high res.

As for sound, if you are serious you normally have someone else capture sound, though being able to record sound directly onto camera is certainly a plus for post.

Potential solution (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=beachtek_dxa-2s)...?
Useful link. Ta.

[wheezy]

The major benefit for many people will be the large capture sensor and the look of resulting image. This is bigger than the RED sensor, though not as high res.

As for sound, if you are serious you normally have someone else capture sound, though being able to record sound directly onto camera is certainly a plus for post.

Don't a lot of Camera Microphones have a 'foot' on them that would slide into the flash hotshoe? I'm just guessing here, but that would allow you to mount a decent mic on there to get better quality sound. Should work better than working it MacGyver style.

[jaduffy108]

I'm "sure" the IQ will be awesome on the 5DII, but it has a slow AF system and 4fps. Since *I* don't print at poster size or larger....going by specs, I would still choose the Nikon D700. The D700 being far richer in terms of features imo. This pixel war thing is out of hand.

[tonie]

hopefully it will be under $2500

[tip]

hopefully it will be under $2500

No, it's $2700.

I think the 5D mk2 is a bit underwhelming, particularly with Nikon's recent offerings.

Still, I'm still happy with my "mk 1" and probably won't upgrade anytime soon.

[volvoben]

Although I didn't like the ergonomics or operation of the 5D, the sensor was really quite amazing...and it appears the mkII is more of the same, assuming the image quality is at or above 1Ds mkIII level.

About 2/3 of the time i'd probably prefer the great ergonomics and speed of a D700, but when on a tripod with some time to set things up and not worry about being spotted or whathaveyou, I'd certainly prefer the extra resolution and sharpness of the 5DmkII.

In any case my D300 will need to last at least another 2-3 years, or at least until I can finally afford a mac pro based system, then save enough to replace the D300, plus normal and ultrawide zoom lenses...

Oh well, really I'm still perfectly happy with the photos taken with my D70, D100, numerous film cameras...and even some cheap p&s digis have made photos whose quality i'm happy to print 20x30 and sell. Everything in perspective as they say.

[Digital Skunk]

...

True, right now the speed of the D700 is keeping it afloat in the FX market. Not that the IQ doesn't hold up, just that 8 fps on an FX body is only capable with the D3 and the D700.

Personally looking to grab either a D700 and D3 or two D700s. Then pickup one of the Canon GX series of P&S cameras for the portability. Hopefully both Nikon and Canon will stop killing us with these 14 MP ultra small sensor bodies, and give us the speed and IQ that EVERYONE wants with bridge cameras and rangefinder "like" cameras.

p.s. having a dedicated audio guy is usually done in film and broadcast TV (sports mainly). Electronic News Gathering and freelance/journalism most audio is collected on camera, or via mics patched into the camera inputs.

[wheezy]

I'm "sure" the IQ will be awesome on the 5DII, but it has a slow AF system and 4fps. Since *I* don't print at poster size or larger....going by specs, I would still choose the Nikon D700. The D700 being far richer in terms of features imo. This pixel war thing is out of hand.

How does the AF system compare to the D700 and what qualifies it as 'Slow'? AFAIK, they've included their new high-sensitivity cross sensors on there, as well as hidden assist points to help with the AI Servo mode. My 3yr Old Canon 20D is plenty fast on the focus with my USM lenses. I'm not trying to argue your point here, I'd like an explanation. I don't know how the D700 AF system works.

I do agree though that the MP war is getting old, and everyone knows it. This thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=565308) points you to a news story where Canon Engineers and Marketing are going different directions, marketing still pushing the MP hype, whereas the Engineers wanted a modest MP jump while adding killer new features:

"The image quality on the 5d1 was so good that it's still as good as the new NikonD700 even though the Nikon is 3 years younger. I was hoping (...) for two new cameras. One would be a 'reheated' 5D1 with a same megapixel count but a slight redesign in sensor combined with new processor and all the gadgets like micro autofocus adjustments, vignetting control, dust reduction, better weather seals and an upgrade to the autofocus."

"The other one would be a 'revolution' 5d, with a completely new sensor design (so it can actually take a lot more megapixels), dual processor for faster frames per second and the gadgets above with a 'near' professional grade autofocus for the sake of protecting the 1D series and model segregation".

On the flip side though, they've had 3 years with this in development, why couldn't they pull off everything they wanted in that time? (Please note, I didn't make the IQ comparison between the 5D and D700, that was an article quote)

[tip]

On the flip side though, they've had 3 years with this in development, why couldn't they pull off everything they wanted in that time?

Different strategy than Nikon.

With Nikon, when you buy a model, you get most of the features of the lesser-priced models (provided they're older (e.g., D90's video is unique)). So I can buy a D700 and not have to worry about missing out on D300 features.

With Canon, it's a bit different. Each model line is treated separately, so a low end xD (e.g., 5D2) has less (okay different) features than a high end xxD (e.g., 50D). So if I bought a 5D2, I still might have to consider getting a 50D for some applications.

I don't know if that marketing article is true; however, until Canon stops overly "protecting" other cameras in their lineup, this will probably continue for years to come. Hopefully it'll be less than another three.

[Digital Skunk]

.....

I get you. That's why I always felt the 5D was more on the lines of a stripped down 30D (Rebel) with a full frame sensor. It was made primarily for IQ, not speed or features.

The 5DII does a better job, even though they only added the weather sealing.

As far as IQ goes, it's been pretty set since the D2x/1DsII for me. I am primarily looking at IQ at extremely low and high ISOs, long exposures, and AF speed and accuracy while shooting at high frame rates.

[jaduffy108]

How does the AF system compare to the D700 and what qualifies it as 'Slow'? AFAIK, they've included their new high-sensitivity cross sensors on there, as well as hidden assist points to help with the AI Servo mode. My 3yr Old Canon 20D is plenty fast on the focus with my USM lenses. I'm not trying to argue your point here, I'd like an explanation. I don't know how the D700 AF system works.

I do agree though that the MP war is getting old, and everyone knows it. This thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=565308) points you to a news story where Canon Engineers and Marketing are going different directions, marketing still pushing the MP hype, whereas the Engineers wanted a modest MP jump while adding killer new features:

"The image quality on the 5d1 was so good that it's still as good as the new NikonD700 even though the Nikon is 3 years younger. I was hoping (...) for two new cameras. One would be a 'reheated' 5D1 with a same megapixel count but a slight redesign in sensor combined with new processor and all the gadgets like micro autofocus adjustments, vignetting control, dust reduction, better weather seals and an upgrade to the autofocus."

"The other one would be a 'revolution' 5d, with a completely new sensor design (so it can actually take a lot more megapixels), dual processor for faster frames per second and the gadgets above with a 'near' professional grade autofocus for the sake of protecting the 1D series and model segregation".

On the flip side though, they've had 3 years with this in development, why couldn't they pull off everything they wanted in that time? (Please note, I didn't make the IQ comparison between the 5D and D700, that was an article quote)

As others have pointed out, the 5dII has the same AF system as the orginal 5d which wasn't anything to celebrate about even three years ago. Now...compared to current Nikon's AF system..c'mon. No contest. Maybe the well publicized AF problems with the newer 1D Canon cams are the reason Canon didn't upgrade the AF system. As you said, you're happy with the 20D AF performance, which tells me, you'd be happy with the 5dII AF performance. I would not be happy with the 5dII's AF system, knowing what the D700 can do for basically the same money.

I suggest you go rent a 1DmkIIn for a day...and you will quickly see what Pro AF is about...and the new Nikon AF system is even better. That Nikon *Pro* AF system is on the D300, btw.

I'm not a Canon hater. I can see people being thrilled with the new 5dII. Do you shoot in a studio? Great choice. Mostly landscapes? Great choice. Super large prints? Great choice. **I** don't do much of the above ....not a great choice for me. Quite a poor choice for me actually. I want a very responsive system for pj/sports/street/ work. I would actually prefer a Nikon D300 over the 5dII. The obvious...what good is the 5dII's extra resolution if I miss the shot??? A D700 gives me a far better set of tools to "get the shot" combined with fantastic resolution, etc. The 5dII appears to have a few great strengths, but also a very significant list of weaknesses such as being quite limited to controlled circumstances.

Bottom line: Nikon's philosophy better matches *my* needs. The new 5dII only reinforces and clarifies the differences in **priorities** between Nikon and Canon. Nikon developed fantastic new sensors that FINALLY equal (or surpass) Canon in terms of noise....combined them with intelligent, efficient ergonomics and an emphasis on camera features/performance (AF speed/accurancy!!). This resulted in cams with a VERY broad set of strengths. Cams that will GET THE JOB DONE in MANY circumstances.

Frankly, *IMO*...Canon has once again chosen to develop a camera that matched their MARKETING STRATEGY (the MP war that you acknowledged), rather than the other way around. If you perceive this, why are you buying into it??? Have a lot invested in Canon L glass?...fine...get a used Canon 1DmkIIn...that's a solid cam and a much better value imo.

As you said and I agree, the IQ of the original 5d is still very good and competitive with current cams from Canon and Nikon...all the more reason NOT to be duped by Canon marketing into buying a 21mp cam with consumer features/performance!!! At the level of cams we talkin', IQ is no longer the issue. Technically, they're *all* capable of producing wonderful images..so this begs the question...what is the criterion for choosing your "tool"? Canon has decided to reinforce the myth that more MP is the way to achieve great photography. Bresson and others are rolling in their graves.

If the 5dII's only real "selling point" is it's resolution and someone rarely if ever prints A1 or larger, the 5dII makes almost ZERO SENSE.

On the other hand, if you make wall sized prints of static objects/scenes...get the 5dII.

I would love to "go off" on a rant 'bout now about how these issues are damaging the ART of photography, but I'll spare you. :)

[valdore]

21 Megapixels is great and all, but unless they've solved this insanity with how the 5D attracts so much dust, debris, and filth to its sensor, then I'm not interested.

A few days ago I spent over three hours cleaning my 5D's sensor, both with the Copper Hill wet solution/swab kit, and also with the Arctic Butterfly from Invisible Dust. And even still at narrow apertures, miscellaneous crap will surface out of nowhere after a quick lens change - and I practice good lens-changing habits. Hell, even with wide apertures I've had photos nearly ruined because the sensor on my 5D was so filthy. I've wanted to take the bloody thing to the top of the parking garage at work and hurl it over the side, that's how frustrating this can be.

[scottydawg]

Hopefully they are dealing with dust, here is what they have to say (look towards the bottom of the features list).

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=ModelTechSpecsTabAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=17662#ModelFeaturesAct

and a direct link:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelFeaturesTabAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=17662&pageno=6

[troyhark]

I'm not a Canon hater. I can see people being thrilled with the new 5dII. Do you shoot in a studio? Great choice. Mostly landscapes? Great choice. Super large prints? Great choice. **I** don't do much of the above ....not a great choice for me. Quite a poor choice for me actually. I don't do much of the above either, yet strangely camera is great for me.:p

I want a very responsive system for pj/street work. I would actually prefer a Nikon D300 over the 5dII. The obvious...what good is the 5dII's extra resolution if I miss the shot??? A D700 gives me a far better set of tools to "get the shot" combined with fantastic resolution, etc. The 5dII appears to have a few great strengths, but also a very significant list of weaknesses such as being quite limited to controlled circumstances. Like just about any item one can buy, so if it doesn't do what you need, buy something that does. I use a 5D is a huge variety of uncontrolled circumstances, yet it still produces some damn fine pics.
Could it be improved - without doubt.


Bottom line: Nikon's philosophy better matches *my* needs. The new 5dII only reinforces and clarifies the differences in **priorities** between Nikon and Canon. Nikon developed fantastic new sensors that FINALLY equal (or surpass) Canon in terms of noise....combined them with intelligent, efficient ergonomics and an emphasis on camera features/performance (AF speed/accurancy!!). This resulted in cams with a VERY broad set of strengths. Cams that will GET THE JOB DONE in MANY circumstances.Only since they got FF sensors, before that Nikon were not even a consideration. Thank god they've got thier act together.
As for ergonomics. I found the Canons very easy to use, without even reading the manual. With Nikons, reading the manual is a must and they always feel clunky, IMO. As for Canon being surpased by Nikon, most tests of the more expensive and three years younger D700 vs the 5D came to the conclusion there wasn't actually much in it.


Frankly, *IMO*...Canon has once again chosen to develop a camera that matched their MARKETING STRATEGY (the MP war that you acknowledged), rather than the other way around. If you perceive this, why are you buying into it??? Have a lot invested in Canon L glass?...fine...get a used Canon 1DmkIIn...that's a solid cam and a much better value imo.
I prefer the handling of the 5D. Never liked the bulk of the 1d[s]s.

As you said and I agree, the IQ of the original 5d is still very good and competitive with current cams from Canon and Nikon...all the more reason NOT to be duped by Canon marketing into buying a 21mp cam with consumer features/performance!!! At the level of cams we talkin', IQ is no longer the issue.Er yes it is! They differ and can still be inproved upon.

Canon has decided to reinforce the myth that more MP is the way to achieve great photography. And will continue to do so as it sells cameras. They are a business not a charity and sadly most people only care about MP, which is particularly stupid as those people are the ones least likely to notice any improvements in cameras IQ anyway.

I've notice a lot of moans in past and of late that the 5D/5DII doesn't shoot 8fps or whatever. Now I do dance photography and find if one takes a single picture at the right moment, then there's no need for a fast fps. Tried with a camera with higher fps a while back and camera always missed the right moment.
Too many machine gun photographers out there. Spray and Pray as it was very accurately described above.

[jaduffy108]

I've notice a lot of moans in past and of late that the 5D/5DII doesn't shoot 8fps or whatever. Now I do dance photography and find if one takes a single picture at the right moment, then there's no need for a fast fps. Tried with a camera with higher fps a while back and camera always missed the right moment.
Too many machine gun photographers out there. Spray and Pray as it was very accurately described above.



It's too bad you didn't take the time to educate yourself before making a purchase, because to buy a 5dII (or 5dmkI) for dance photography is a very poor choice in "tool" and a waste of money. A Canon 20D/30D/40D/50D, combined with fast glass, would have been much better tools for shooting dance performances. A used 1dmkIIn would have been even better.

A Nikon D300 would run circles around your 5d for dance/action photography. Not just the fps either, the AF on the D300 is in another league compared to the 5d.

And you don't make large prints very often?? As in A2, A1, etc? If not...again....the 5d is a poor choice and waste of money.

Am I ragging on the 5d? No, it's a great cam for specific tasks. My ex has one and she does great work with it. Head shots for actors, portraits and product brochures!!! Not dance....geez.

This isn't about Nikon vs Canon...there are some wonderful cameras in both product lines...BUT...the 5d is a niche product. All the more true with the mkII.

For you to promote the 5d as an action camera is irresponsible.

[840quadra]

Wow,

This thread has gone way off topic, and kinda getting personal.

I am somewhat interested in the ability to create HD clips on the fly. There are often moments when pulling out an other camera can be a bit of a pain (or cause you to miss your opportunity). Being able to do high quality video or images in one device is something that will likely become more commonplace as time moves forward.

Nice feature list on paper.

http://forums.macrumors.com/image.php?u=47064&dateline=1165206282&type=profile

[troyhark]

I'm not a 'spray and pray' photographer as I simply take one shot at the correct moment. And rarely miss the shot, so why bother with a motordrive sequence with lots of duff shots, when I can take one good one. Which is what the talent free tend to do.
In a set up I did recently, I had a new idea for a shot, put dancers in position, said go and took just the one shot [see below]. It was exactly as I wanted it without repainting Zebra crossing more evenly, so I didn't see any point in taking any more.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/2875590463_5e62216461_o.jpg

It's too bad you didn't take the time to educate yourself before making a purchase, because to buy a 5dII (or 5dmkI) for dance photography is a very poor choice in "tool" and a waste of money. A Canon 20D/30D/40D/50D, combined with fast glass, would have been much better tools for shooting dance performances. A used 1dmkIIn would have been even better. Nonsense, I have a 20D and funnily enough it's not a patch on my 5D for many reasons and the same things apply to the more recent versions. Don't even like the 1DII.

A Nikon D300 would run circles around your 5d for dance/action photography. Not just the fps either, the AF on the D300 is in another league compared to the 5d.But it's not full frame so completerly and utterly useless for my needs.



And you don't make large prints very often?? As in A2, A1, etc? If not...again....the 5d is a poor choice and waste of money.
Well print size is a minor reason for choosing a FF camera, the look of the image is way more important and the 5d produces beautiful looking images. I cannot stand crop cameras or the focal lengths/fields of view they produce. The 20D however could easlily be considered a waste of money, as it was only used briefly before getting a 5D and it's never been used since. It's now my doorstop, sorry back up camera and I've never needed it.



Am I ragging on the 5d? No, it's a great cam for specific tasks. Actually you are as you don't appreciate how good it is when used well.
My ex has one and she does great work with it. Head shots for actors, portraits and product brochures!!! Not dance....geez.
Well funny how I find it exceptionally good for the job, oh hang on maybe it's not the camera, maybe it's because I'm actually a good photographer. :p BTW newflash for you - It's not the camera that takes pictures, it's the person behind that does so. Could the camera be better, certainly, eye control focus like the EOS 3 would be the greatest single improvement for me.



This isn't about Nikon vs Canon...there are some wonderful cameras in both product lines...BUT...the 5d is a niche product. All the more true with the mkII.
Only a niche if your lack of skills/immagination limit it to a niche.

For you to promote the 5d as an action camera is irresponsible.Irresponsible!!? :confused: Even if I had promoted it as such, which I didn't, that's a ridiculously over the top thing to say.


Besides, people who work in camera shops are not working professionals and from my experience, most know very little about photography or even how to use the cameras they are selling. Oh and photography is my day job. Love and kisses. TH


BTW I'm now trying to decide which of the latest 50/60MP MF DSLRs to get to use in future for my work, including dance photography. And they only do 1fps at best. But according to your thinking, they will be even more useless. So why not write to say Lois Greenfield and tell her how she's been doing it all wrong these years. :D
http://www.loisgreenfield.com

[troyhark]

There are some example shots on DPReview and the quality looks execrable. Though hard to tell if it's user or [beta] camera that is responsible.

[Phrasikleia]

troyhark, that was one well reasoned retort, especially your point about FF cameras being beneficial for more than just large print sizes.

[Kebabselector]

I know the 5D AF isn't 1D standard, but I've not found it to be lacking. As with all cameras technique is required. You have to work with your camera, not shoot away and hope. Though for some instances I know high fps is essential.

[AlaskaMoose]

Well, I agree with troyhark in relation to camera shooting speed. However, please take my comments with a grain of salt, since I am not a sports photographer. Even so, common sense tells me that before 1 or 2 or 10 fps speeds were available to photographers with film and then digital cameras, these were still producing images that to this day can't be equally duplicated with the fastest cameras available. How did such photographers achieve such feats with slow (if that's what we should call them) cameras?

Something else I have noticed is that the best photographers around have no time to argue about cameras and such, or are usually very quiet about it.

[Grimace]

First, the comments regarding the benefits of FF are laughable. Where do you people pick this stuff up??? Defraction, DoF, etc. are the arena of FF. You CANNOT distinguish whether an image is from a cropped vs FF cam from a print. That's insane! Holy-moly.

Please...NAME ONE SINGLE PRO SPORTS Photographer using a 5d(IorII) at a sports or action event. Not ONE...EVER...in my YEARS of work.



I'll pick apart just two bits that stand out.

1. Full Frame does have DoF benefit over cropped cameras as more of the lens is used at the wider end. If the subject is in focus in the middle, more of the out-of-focus parts of the lens (at the periphery) are visible. It makes an image pop more because there can be more variance. You are correct that someone would be hard pressed to pick out from a randomly selected image if the camera was FF or not. The aperture setting on either type of camera could provide results that look like the other. But, to qualify that -- if both types of cameras take a shot at f/2.8 (or f/4 etc.) will look more defined with a FF camera than the same shot, same angle, same everything when taken with a crop camera - only because there is more of the DoF exposed with the lens coverage of a FF camera, as mentioned earlier.

2. Anyone can shoot sports with a 5D (the mkII isn't out yet.) But, any "pro" wedding photographer could use a Rebel XT. That said, you would be hard pressed to find a pro on the sidelines of major sporting events with a 5D (or its successor). It simply isn't the "best" tool for the job. Sports shooting happens in 1000ths of seconds and the 5D won't cut it for much other than maybe golf putts.

Let's stick to discussing the cameras and not let things get too personal!

[Phrasikleia]

He basically said the 5D works for him; I see nothing in his comments about it being the "be-all-end all of cameras", especially since he said he's in the market for a medium format camera.

I think most of us here will agree that dpreview is hardly full of people who want to rip anyone apart. Those forums tend to be just as good-natured as these do.

[wheezy]

As I stated, the AF on my 20D has been great for me, but it's all I know. I'm sure if I used a 1d MkIII with it's fast frame rate and pro-level AF then the 20D suddenly wouldn't cut it; such is the way of upgrading on anything.

I shoot Canon, it's what I started on. I have nothing against Nikon; frankly I don't know enough about Nikon to nit pick and and complain about this feature or that feature. However, I hardly see Canon as a company that has lost it's vision and has no idea what it's doing. I would be floored if the 5D MkII proved to be nothing more than a MkI with a bigger sensor. And I don't expect it to. It shares the same sensor as the 1Ds MkIII, I hardly doubt it's going to be pro-sumer quality at best (especially since Canon is saying it has the best IQ, period, of all their current bodies). The Fast Frame rate and Fast AF are sport qualities for sport bodies, it's obvious that the 5D is NOT a sports body. For what it's been built to do (namely portrait and 'slower' life pictures) it's going to excel. That's what I'm excited about; that's the style of photography I generally take and I'm excited to jump into a FF body instead of a crop.

I don't want to switch to Nikon, and what I've heard from a very professional and award winning (http://www.kennethlinge.com/) portrait photographer, since Nikon has jumped into the FF market, they're discovering that all their new lenses designed around a crop body are having vignetting and fall-off problems when used on the new FX bodies.

So... the 5D MkII for me. And that HD video thing could prove to be quite handy at times (even if the audio sucks)

[Phrasikleia]

So... the 5D MkII for me. And that HD video thing could prove to be quite handy at times (even if the audio sucks)

I'm curious about the HD video and how that differs from fps, especially when frame grabs are as good as Vincent Laforet (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/) says they are.

[jaduffy108]

I really don't want to get into a discussion about whose post displays the most arrogance or what have you.

ok. I just hope my last post helped you understand what I'm so worked up about :)

I do have this one question. Did you look at the link (http://www.loisgreenfield.com/index.html) troyhark posted, because I find Lois Greenfield's work to be truly beautiful, and she is apparently using a medium format camera for those action dance shots.

I'm quite familiar with Lois and her work...having met her many times in NYC. She's been around for many years. She's the real deal...no doubt. Last I heard, she's very focused on studio work. I know a dancer that worked with her..Verena...what a babe. ;) Is she still working with dancers?? I'm not sure if she uses medium format exclusively, but I do know she was using a Hasselblad with a digital back as of late last year. Actually, she would be an ideal candidate for a 5dII :D

Again...with Lois, controlled environment. If your point is...are there exceptions to my posts regarding the 5dII or medium format for action...sure, of course. If you're Lois Greenfiled (!!) .... can afford to dedicate BIG money for gear that's for studio work....AND... can have pro dancers repeat movements over and over and over AND OVER again in attempting to capture the "decisive moment"...sure, go for it. :p

I'll go check out her site...thanks.

[SLC Flyfishing]

Yawn!

I don't know, I'm just underwhelmed by this one. It's like they think that a bunch of extra resolution is the answer. I think it's only to stay even with Sony's new camera in the megapixel race (which a surprisingly large number of canon fans seem to still care about). On another forum, the Canon fans are always talking about how we're getting too much pixel density these days, then this one comes out and 3/4ths of them are swooning.

SLC

[wheezy]

Yawn! I don't know, I'm just underwhelmed by this one. It's like they think that a bunch of extra resolution is the answer. SLC

Why is that the only thing noted on this new build is the MP count? It's moved up from the Digic 2 to the Digic 4, a much broader ISO range to match Nikon, LiveView, 1080p HD, Peripheral Illumination Correction (which is a little gimmicky seeing as it's only for JPG) and a few more things. It's not just more MP.

[jaduffy108]

Why is that the only thing noted on this new build is the MP count? It's moved up from the Digic 2 to the Digic 4, a much broader ISO range to match Nikon, LiveView, 1080p HD, Peripheral Illumination Correction (which is a little gimmicky seeing as it's only for JPG) and a few more things. It's not just more MP.

I believe the "yawn" from SLC Flyfishing and others I've read online...(myself included if I were a average Canon user) is:
The new features of the 5dII, most importantly will not impact my ability to "get the shot" or the final output IQ. Mathematically...yes, the IQ will be better....but in reality...no. If I compare a 50D to a 5dII...the IQ on average size prints up to the occasional A2 will be VERY comparable. So what good is 21 MP to the average photographer? There are people who will be very interested in the 5dII as a studio cam and even a possible medium format replacement. Those people...sorry, but frankly...they won't be asking the questions you're asking...they KNOW what they need and why.

******
Why do you feel a *need* for the 5dII? What does it do that your current cam can not do?

What shots have you missed due to the limitations of your current cam and how does the 5dII fill those needs?

What other issues would a 5dII solve for you?...such as large prints for gallery exhibitions.

Have good, thoughtful answers to those questions? Cool...get the 5dII and enjoy. If not...look for the product that answers those questions. If you don't have any questions that arise from specific needs...then you don't need a new camera!!! Spend the money on a photog training.

******

As has been said before...the 5dII *appears* to have a wonderful sensor and superb ISO performance as usual. Canon chose not to add some *pro* features, but instead added gimicky stuff with the unspoken excuse being not to cannibalize their PRO line of products. Just as the 5dmkI was a Pro quality sensor inside a prosumer body with a prosumer feature set....the 5dII continues that "tradition". It's a GOOD tradition. The original 5d was a breakthrough product on all accounts. Problem is...imo...Nikon finally got their act together and expectations have been raised...significantly. The d300 and D700 represent serious value/performance.

IMO, some of that gimicky stuff in the 5dII is pretty cool regardless, but for *me* it sure doesn't make up for a mediocre AF system, etc inside a $2700 cam...when I can get PRO features from either a used Canon 1D series or a new Nikon D700 for the same or less money. Just watch out with the 1dmkIII.

Do you anticipate exhibiting large prints in a gallery? The 5dII would be awesome for that. Again...landscapes? Awesome choice. Portraits? Awesome. You know where I'm going...I have already suggested it's strengths and weaknesses ... ad nauseam.

This perspective is all over the photog forums online...it's a "common wisdom" perspective amongst PRO photographers.

You wrote you don't want to switch to Nikon...no problem...Canon makes great gear. Just know the problems with Nikkor lens you wrote about aren't as bad as you seem to believe. The 70-200 does have some issues on FX...but the 14-24, 24-70 and others are STELLAR.

Back to the 5dII....if you just "want it", which usually translates into...
"I want bragging rights for owning the 21mp cam"...and that's worth $2700 to you...knock yourself out.

[SLC Flyfishing]

Why is that the only thing noted on this new build is the MP count? It's moved up from the Digic 2 to the Digic 4, a much broader ISO range to match Nikon, LiveView, 1080p HD, Peripheral Illumination Correction (which is a little gimmicky seeing as it's only for JPG) and a few more things. It's not just more MP.

I don't know, I just think that 21 MP may be overkill for more than 90% of the folks out there. I know it gives more room to crop, but I have a 10 MP cam and I don't find myself wanting for more cropping latitude, ever.

I just think that for the price, the new 5D gets way out classed by the Nikon D700, I'm no fanboy (except maybe for Pentax which is what I own and shoot), but for that kind of money I'd like a camera with awesome IQ (which the 5D and the D700 have) Full Frame (which the 5D and D700 have) weather sealing (which the 5D and D700 have) and a fast frame rate and AF system (which apparently only the D700 has).

And I'll be the first to admit that I rarely even make use of the 3 FPS frame rate of the K10D that I own, and it's got slow AF. But even if I wouldn't have a lot of need for those features, for that kind of cash, I certainly don't think it's a stretch to expect them. In the end, the new 5D is way to boring to me to consider dropping $3,000 on it. I'm toying with the idea of buying into a second system this year, now I can rest assured I won't have to consider Canon.

SLC

[wheezy]

Back to the 5dII....if you just "want it", which usually translates into..."I want bragging rights for owning the 21mp cam"...and that's worth $2700 to you...knock yourself out.

I'm pretty sure I said in a previous post (although it could be easily overlooked) I want a FF camera, hence the 'need' to buy a new one. While I'd consider just buying the Mk 1 5D, there are the other features on the MkII that I'm interested in, mainly the extra ISO range (which better actually be worthwhile). I shoot drag racers at the 1/4 mile track out here, and after the sun is gone and the racing continues, all I have to rely on is my 135 f/2 and ISO 3200; yes there is noise but the racers don't care, they want the best shot of their car. If I can bust into 6400 or even 12,800 to allow me to stop my lens down and still get a 1/200 shutter then that helps me sell more prints. I rarely use the 5fps my 20D can do, so 3.9 will be fine. From what I've discovered, my best prints are the split second after the light goes green and the tires are folding around the wheel; that takes perfect 1 shot timing as opposed to a motordrive. (But as you've stated, in other sports, 3.9 doesn't come close to cutting it, but I'm not in that arena of photography)

136210

The 21MP is actually the smallest bit in the 'want' department. I have no care for bragging rights. I've never needed more than the 8.2 that my 20D provides. For what I do, the 5D mkII is a perfect upgrade for me.

[Digital Skunk]

...

That's the same assessment that a lot of photogs may be making too SLC. Not that the 5D isn't a worthy update, just that it was expected and some (myself included) were looking for the few things that the 5DI was missing to be added. We only got weather sealing. The frame rate is still quite slow for journalists looking to go FF with fast rates (which are needed in a tactical way) and for a tougher body.

The AF is still from the previous model which is great, but the speed increase would have been welcomed, especially since the 1DsIII got a faster engine.

I still wanted Canon to make the 5D a true 1DsIII lite like the D700 is a D3 lite but that's just the way the companies work. For a lot of photogs the 5D is welcomed and amazing, (SEE P.S. BELOW) but for some the frame rate and AF won't make it possible to make the switch. Especially since the high ISO would be welcomed for wedding photogs, but the frame rate and AF may turn them off.

p.s. I have seen the sample video files from both the D90 and 5D, very impressed. But the buzz on the web comes from a lot of shooters that don't do video professionally. Audio acquisition and the benefits of having a REAL motion picture HD cam far out way the specs of the 5D and D90.

Not to say that either won't find their uses in the semi pro/pro world in a crunch or for these adrenaline pumped teenage shooters that everyone loves.

[wheezy]

Not to say that either won't find their uses in the semi pro/pro world in a crunch or for these adrenaline pumped teenage shooters that everyone loves.

As long as I can become a YouTube celebrity, that is my goal in life </sarcasm>

[tonyeck]

Not quite sure where the above discussion is going, but just want to say I have just pre-ordered one, mainly after being sold by Vincent Laforet's blog post.

Roll on November!

[Hmac]

AND WE'RE DONE. Moving on... nothing to see here. Quite frankly I'm VERY disappointed in where this thread went, I never see this kind of bickering and b!tching in the photo forums, usually that's seems to be reserved for the design forums where everyone... I'll stop there. And you stop here too.

Whew....don't you ever visit DPR? That place exceeds this one for impolite discourse by a noticeable margin.

But I do agree we can be done. The 5DMkII will work out fine for those whose photography falls into the niche it was designed for. Likewise the D700, the D3, and the 1DMkIII. Canon will survive, Nikon will survive.

[wheezy]

Whew....don't you ever visit DPR? That place exceeds this one for impolite discourse by a noticeable margin.

But I do agree we can be done. The 5DMkII will work out fine for those whose photography falls into the niche it was designed for. Likewise the D700, the D3, and the 1DMkIII. Canon will survive, Nikon will survive.

Nope, I never visit the forums on DPR, being addicted to Macrumors is enough of a time consumer for my work day :) The photo forum on here does me well enough.

[wheezy]

Not quite sure where the above discussion is going, but just want to say I have just pre-ordered one, mainly after being sold by Vincent Laforet's blog post.

Roll on November!

I'm reading his review right now, and he's being pretty bold in his low-light claims. Exactly what I want!

EDIT - I just finished his review, and YES, he's basically a Canon celebrity so of course he'll talk up the camera, but reading that got me very excited now, no more questions. Call me what you want, I'm buying this camera.

[tonyeck]

I'm reading his review right now, and he's being pretty bold in his low-light claims. Exactly what I want!

EDIT - I just finished his review, and YES, he's basically a Canon celebrity so of course he'll talk up the camera, but reading that got me very excited now, no more questions. Call me what you want, I'm buying this camera.

He is a Canon Celebrity, but hell, I was sold by it.

If you want one this year you may need to pre order ASAP. A lot of places have already sold out

[troyhark]

I NEVER RECOMMENDED THE 5D FOR ACTION PHOTOGRAPHY.
You said it was useless for dance. I disagreed as I photograph dancers and funnily enough find it very good, indeed way better than the cameras your 'expertise' recommended over the 5D. The 5D was ideal for my needs. What camera anyone else prefers to use is up to them.
Heck, if everyone else is using 1DsIII/Nikon D3s to capture an event, I may be tempted to use a pinhole camera to get a different image from the rest of the herd. Now where's my aluminium foil and needle? :D


Oh one other thing, the image I "PS'd to death", that's a JPEG straight out of camera - 10secs with clone tool to remove a lamp post, being the only pping done, other than output sharpening after shrinking for web. Didn't see any point tweaking the RAW file as image was simply to show timing. The final look of shot may well end up being nothing like the colour image posted.

[tonie]

man, a 5d and 85L drooooool.......

[harcosparky]

Quite a few 5Ds suffered mirror failure well short of the expected actuations. The mirrors literally fell off. Something to do with the glue used to attach them!


Is it possible? Just possible that the Mechanism is the same, but the ADHESIVE was changed???



Back to the 5dII....if you just "want it", which usually translates into...
"I want bragging rights for owning the 21mp cam"...and that's worth $2700 to you...knock yourself out.

Good statement ... all too often people make a purchase based solely on that reason - to get bragging rights.

[Col127]

check out this link on a review of the mkII by wedding photographers. looks real promising: http://www.bebbblog.com/index.php?category=7&start=0

[troyhark]

A feature where the new 5D will be worth buying for alone for some is the Live View.
A lot of people sneer at it, but I find it very useful with my compact as I can accurately frame shots when I physically cannot get to look through viewfinder, which gives you more options on viewpoints. Plus it means on film sets when you have to shoot during a take, I won't upset the sound guys as the camera doesn't have a clunky mirror banging up and down. I don't like blimps as they turn a modern ergonomic camera into a box brownie. http://www.soundblimp.com/Default.htm
Worth the upgrade all on it's own if you need a quiet FF camera.

[troyhark]

Something else I have noticed is that the best photographers around have no time to argue about cameras and such, or are usually very quiet about it.Depends on the forum. Lots of pros like to find out information germane to their job and when cards are copying to computer or one's images are being rendered/batched, it leaves plenty of time to do research. Though as Bridge CS4 is so much faster that CS3, I've spent an awful lot less time online as a result since using it and I've hardly used LR since testing CS4.

[Phrasikleia]

A feature where the new 5D will be worth buying for alone for some is the Live View.
A lot of people sneer at it, but I find it very useful with my compact as I can accurately frame shots when I physically cannot get to look through viewfinder, which gives you more options on viewpoints. Plus it means on film sets when you have to shoot during a take, I won't upset the sound guys as the camera doesn't have a clunky mirror banging up and down. I don't like blimps as they turn a modern ergonomic camera into a box brownie. http://www.soundblimp.com/Default.htm
Worth the upgrade all on it's own if you need a quiet FF camera.

Does the 5D have some radically different Live View implementation? How could it possibly be more quiet? On my XSi, I still have the mirror clap when shooting in Live View. In fact, I have it twice: once when the mirror flips down to focus, and then again when I press the shutter.

[robbieduncan]

Does the 5D have some radically different Live View implementation? How could it possibly be more quiet? On my XSi, I still have the mirror clap when shooting in Live View. In fact, I have it twice: once when the mirror flips down to focus, and then again when I press the shutter.

As described on this page (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/page11.asp) the 5D, along with the 40D and 50D have a "Silent Shooting" mode with live view. The 450D/XSi lacks this.

[Martin C]

Vincent LaForet posted a short film he made with the 5D MkII movie mode:
http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2086

[Phrasikleia]

As described on this page (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/page11.asp) the 5D, along with the 40D and 50D have a "Silent Shooting" mode with live view. The 450D/XSi lacks this.

Nice! I wonder if the Nikon D90 can do that.

It's a pity they didn't include that feature with the XSi. I draw a lot of attention from the guards in museums with all that clacking going on. Even if they allow photography, it makes the guards hawk eye me intensely and follow me around, which is a bit disconcerting.

[Mike Teezie]

I have one on preorder to replace my 5D. I am interested in the higher ISO performance, and I can't pretend that shooting 1080p videos doesn't get my geek lust going.

This is actually perfect timing for me, now I can replace my 1Ds mkII with a III later in '09, after these new cameras hopefully drive the prices down a little bit.

[tonie]

Mike, where did you pre-order it from? And how much?

[harcosparky]

As described on this page (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/page11.asp) the 5D, along with the 40D and 50D have a "Silent Shooting" mode with live view. The 450D/XSi lacks this.

I bought the 40D for this feature.

Very useful when the camera mounted to the back of a telescope.

Live with with Zoom-In on focus makes for some nice images.

In Live View the mirror comes down o Focus ( AF ) then goes back up. The shot is almost dead silent.

Of course on a telescope I do not use AF so the mirror stays up.

I doubt the 50D or 5D have anything I need. The new display would be nice, but not worth the price of a new camera.

[tonyeck]

I'd be interested to see where people had pre-ordered from. I put my order in at Adorama recently but I don't trust that they will send it out on release as they are still taking pre orders

[troyhark]

It's a pity they didn't include that feature with the XSi. I draw a lot of attention from the guards in museums with all that clacking going on. Even if they allow photography, it makes the guards hawk eye me intensely and follow me around, which is a bit disconcerting.Point + Shoots are good for gallery/museum photography for their silent option. And discreet size. Plus if they do object, they take you less seriously with a 'tourist' camera

[Phrasikleia]

Point + Shoots are good for gallery/museum photography for their silent option. And discreet size. Plus if they do object, they take you less seriously with a 'tourist' camera

Right, but I'm not doing casual, tourist photography. I'm amassing a library of images for teaching and academic publication. They need to be very good.

I tried to get away with PnS shots for years, but museums are very low light settings where tripods are mostly forbidden. Also, I needed more control over DOF, since statues rarely have a nicely uncluttered background (I'm photographing mostly Graeco-Roman sculpture).

A 5D would actually be the perfect camera for me, but I don't have the budget for one (and all the FF glass to go with it) right now. Alas, I don't get paid for any of these photos, so it's pretty tough for me to justify such an investment.

[Grimace]

It would be pretty embarrassing to have a thread in the Photography section locked down. We have always acted as adults so let's keep that up. If you were involved in any part of the previous back-and-forth posts, just let it go so we can move on and talk about this camera.

Personally, I'm loving this 5D update. Image quality in low light to me is more important than a billion AF points on this type of camera.

Also, there are many of us who don't have a great deal of experience working with high-end video cameras. We know our way around a DSLR but don't have the time/$ to invest in motion gear. This should provide us an opportunity to play around with video using our existing gear. That's a pretty cool way to get into it and I'm pumped to try it out. I don't plan on making serious movies, but for traveling or the occasional special moment, it could be valuable to have.

[Over Achiever]

In Live View the mirror comes down o Focus ( AF ) then goes back up. The shot is almost dead silent.

Of course on a telescope I do not use AF so the mirror stays up.

I doubt the 50D or 5D have anything I need. The new display would be nice, but not worth the price of a new camera.Slightly off topic, but how is your telescope set up? I got my degree in astronomy/astrophysics but I haven't been in the field in a while. Is a FF camera a huge improvement over a regular SLR, especially with the larger photodiodes? I'm currently looking at the 5D or the D700 before I invest into a lens system for glass.

[ksz]

I started with a Minolta X-700. It had no autofocus; AF lenses made their debut with the Minolta Maxxum a few years later and I subsequently upgraded to the Maxxum 7. The Canon 5D has a much more advanced version of AF than the old Maxxum. It may not be up to the standards of the 1D or Nikon CAM-1xxx, but it's actually more than I need.

For landscapes, cityscapes, and family/friends, it works quite well.

Regarding 3.9 fps, for me that is more than adequately compensated for by 30fps HD video at full 1920x1080. Whenever I need to capture action, I'll just switch to video and pick individual frames out of the video sequence.

The AF and FPS trade-offs in this camera simply position it for a different audience. If you are someone who depends on AF and FPS, all you need to do is realize the obvious: This camera is not for you.

Don't drop it in the sewer accompanied by endless rants of selfish disappointment coming from a realization that the camera isn't meant for you. Instead, just shop elsewhere. Pricewise, the 1D MkIII is the logical choice. It has enough megapixels and enough speed.

I am as impressed by the 5D MkII today as I was the day it was unveiled. It's still on my short list of goodies to buy. Not going to preorder though; I need to see more samples to judge image quality.

[tonyeck]

So, who has it pre-ordered...

And from where?

[Mike Teezie]

So, who has it pre-ordered...

And from where?

Adorama for me, its my first time ordering with them. I usually shop at B&H or Amazon for all my camera gear. We'll see if I actually get the thing around November.

[tonyeck]

Ah crap, just heard back from Adorama and they have over 750 people on their pre-order list...

That's not looking good!

[wheezy]

I'm going to just pre-order from a local brick'n'mortar store, not that I don't trust Adorama or BH but with the volume they'll have to ship out I doubt they could ever give you any kind of reasonable guess as to when your camera would arrive. And since it's a brand new camera I don't expect they'll be any substantial price difference.

[tonyeck]

I'm going to just pre-order from a local brick'n'mortar store, not that I don't trust Adorama or BH but with the volume they'll have to ship out I doubt they could ever give you any kind of reasonable guess as to when your camera would arrive. And since it's a brand new camera I don't expect they'll be any substantial price difference.

I have to admit, and in fear of sounding cheap when dropping a lot of cash on the 5D, I love not having to pay sales tax when ordering online! Would be an extra $200...

[troyhark]

Right, but I'm not doing casual, tourist photography. I'm amassing a library of images for teaching and academic publication. They need to be very good.I wasn't talking about casual tourtist photography either. Rather about when photography is frowned upon. I happen to like photographing art in the context of galleries and people viewing. Sometimes it's OK, sometimes it isn't. A less serious looking camera is more likely to be ignored.

[Grimace]

Honestly, this is really sickening. If you have been on the photography forum for 20 posts or 2000, it should be known that we don't resort to the childish back-and-forth or OMGLOL!Z kinds of behavior here. This is one of the few photog forums where people know how to behave - and when someone forgets, everyone else is mature enough to let it go so it doesn't turn into a pissing match. If you need to write flame posts, send them privately so we don't have to hear about it. I am almost ready to PM a mod to lock this thread, which would be a bit embarrassing for our crowd.

Just stop it or move along.

[Mike Teezie]

Honestly, this is really sickening. If you have been on the photography forum for 20 posts or 2000, it should be known that we don't resort to the childish back-and-forth or OMGLOL!Z kinds of behavior here. This is one of the few photog forums where people know how to behave - and when someone forgets, everyone else is mature enough to let it go so it doesn't turn into a pissing match. If you need to write flame posts, send them privately so we don't have to hear about it. I am almost ready to PM a mod to lock this thread, which would be a bit embarrassing for our crowd.

Just stop it or move along.

I remember way back in the day, two very prominent members got banned for having a HUGE Canon vs. Nikon pissing match. I couldn't believe what I was seeing - two smart, well thought of guys just hammering each other over brand loyalty.

[xUKHCx]

Mod Note:


This thread is now a lot shorter then it used to be.

Please keep the personal comments/trolling out of discussions thanks.

I imagine it will calm down now.

[FSBW21086]

have it preordered at fotocare and uniquephoto... see who gets it first...