Apple Entering Projector Market? [Archive]

AlanAudio

Jan 21, 2004, 06:19 AM

In the Forum referred to, there was a lot of speculation about what sort of non-standard connector Apple might use.

My money would be on them using no connector at all - except as a fall-back option.

AirPort would be such a cool way to connect to a device like that and all modern Macs are able to use AirPort. It's widely used on the Dark side too, so you instantly get cross-platform opearation.

It would be so much better to just turn up and wirelessly log into the projector rather than to have to mess with leads, extensions and adapters.

Projectors are often located some distance from the person doing the presentation, so wireless offers significant safety and convenience advantages.

Having said that, I have my doubts about whether a video projector is really the right sort of product for Apple. They would have to come up with something amazing in order to differentiate it from the many others that are available.

lind0834

Jan 21, 2004, 06:28 AM

Get the thing to be completely integrated with Keynote.. might be interesting to see what a company that makes presentation software do with device made specifically for presentations...

though I doubt if this would ever see the light of day.

CalfCanuck

Jan 21, 2004, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by lind0834
though I doubt if this would ever see the light of day.
Yeah, I also hope that Apple wouldn't lose it's focus and devote too much of it's energy to this market. While sales of expensive projectors have picked up quite a bit, it's quite a competitive market. You can make a decent markup on the units, but you only sell one to an entire workgroup, rather than one for every user.

Better to focus their energy on their current product line and where they are severely lacking (still shipping G4's!), or else add a high end display that can sell to multiple users within a workgroup. (Wasn't there a rumor of a 30" LCD floating around?)

Only way this would make sense to Apple is if one of the main projector companies approached Apple about rebranding an existing model - maybe Apple could give design advice for the "box" it comes in, and spec out the connectors for Macs, but merely serve as the "distibutor" and not get into inventory or manufacturing issues. (Hey, sort of like HP and the iPod ...:rolleyes: )

Steven1621

Jan 21, 2004, 06:47 AM

though certainly viable field to go into, i question if apple would really devote time and engery to projectors. it would seem that it would be more profitable to further work on the ipod line, which is where they make considerable profit.

Squire

Jan 21, 2004, 07:44 AM

If this is true, how much do you want to bet that Steve's been demoing it for the past year? If they did get into this market, it would be nice if they came out with a consumer model, too.

Squire

Vroem

Jan 21, 2004, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by AlanAudio
AirPort would be such a cool way to connect to a device like that
If this would be possible it would exist. But it's impossible: the bandwith and speed needed by a monitor or projector is a magnitude larger than Airport or even gigabit ethernet (not to mention the latencies.)

McMike

Jan 21, 2004, 08:14 AM

First of all: doesn't HP make projectors? I think they do, so maybe it's part of an exchange for the iPod! I just hope it won't be just a change of the case color... white instead of blue :(

And now the dream-part:
If you have a projector with a quite high resolution you can use it as your prime display. Apple makes bluetooth keyboard and mouse, so no problem with wires!
Of course a projector would also be your TV/home cinema, so you need a stylish case so it can fit in your living room... That leads me to the 20th Anniversary Mac 2 - 'There's one small thing more: The NEW Apple Cube G5 with integrated Superdrive, TV card, multichannel soundcard and a bluetooth vr!'
Says who? Says SJ!

That's just a thought... Or maybe wishfull thinking :p

However I would love SJ for something like this! As a conterpart to Gates' house the iHouse, by Apple

:D

But as we all know Apple won't make something for our living-rooms because 'you work on your mac only a few inches away but you watch TV from far'.

;)

pkradd

Jan 21, 2004, 08:18 AM

You know, saying Apple should not get into digital projectors (or any other digital lifestyle products) is silly. They spend money on R&D and any company worth its' salt will pursue all areas that may bring them profits. The market is fairly new in the consumer field and it would be great if Apple has developed something unique and different then what's out there at the moment. Indeed they have an obligation to their shareholders to bring out new and better products if they can. The fact right now is that the PC market is slowing way down. Double digit growth has become single digit. You can't stand still. Apple will not survive with a limited amount of products. They have enough resources to work on many things. Of course this whole matter may not be true, but time will tell.

desdomg

Jan 21, 2004, 08:20 AM

What if it isn't just limited to presentations? What if it will also interface with your TV/satellite tuner as well as your Mac?

A hight quality projector for the rest of us? Would be a lot better than an entire wall LCD ....

Here is a quote from one of the members of that forum:

"If this proves true I can't help but see this as a stimulus to the industry at at large. Not many know about front projection home theater, but most people know about Apple. Apple introduced a lot of people to MP3 players and downloadable music, because the gadget freaks bought 'em first and everyone else saw them and said "that's cool, I gotta get me one o' dem." Maybe they can do the same for home theater. If they do it will benefit all of us with a larger, more competitive market."

ogminlo

Jan 21, 2004, 08:27 AM

DV is about the highest bitrate you could push over WiFi unless you are running 802.11g and you are close-up enough to get maximum bandwidth. But DV might be all they're looking for. I'm just thinking that DV blown up on a nice projector would really accentuate the lossiness of the codec.

This may be an extension of Apple's relationship with Samsung. Apple could have a first-rights thing with some killer new projection technology. This isn't out of the question.

I'm just puzzled as to how this fits in with the rest of their products... The projector market can't be as widespread as the digital music player market... Can it? Or would this product make it wide like the iPod did?

And what will they call it??

Interesting...

Trowaman

Jan 21, 2004, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by lind0834
though I doubt if this would ever see the light of day.

it will be released this June with the iWalk. Newton 2, and G6 cube (that's right, I said G6). :D

Sol

Jan 21, 2004, 09:11 AM

The forum that started this rumour seems full of people who think "Macs are too expensive" but at least one person had the common sense to point out that the Apple Displays are very cheap compared to competing products.

Now, what if this projector is integrated with its own computer? I am thinking an iMac of projectors but one that we could plug into other computers and AV peripherals like DVD players and consoles. Surelly the guts of an eMac would not add too much to the cost of building a projector.

Dont Hurt Me

Jan 21, 2004, 09:17 AM

i doubt the way to increase your allready dismal selling consumer line is to add a projector to imac, if anything it would kill the line. think of what those projectors cost plus a computer. no a better idea is a consumer tower with the g5 in it half the size of a protower. how many people would want a projector imac and afford it? i wouldnt want one.

hughdogg

Jan 21, 2004, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by ogminlo

I'm just puzzled as to how this fits in with the rest of their products...

Could have some real potential in the Education marketplace if it is priced correctly. Especally Higher Ed, lots of classrooms are being fitted with this sort of technology, lots of potential for bundling this projector with iBooks, etc...

Just a thought, cheers,
hughdogg

penguin

Jan 21, 2004, 09:29 AM

I think I see where this is going.

When Apple addressed digital music they built the Music Store and the best AND coolest device to play MP3s on.

So in the future when Apple addresses downloadable movies we will have the Apple Movie Store and the iProjector to display your movies the way movies were intended to be viewed. BIG.
Front projectors will soon be THE coolest way to watch your movie. I think many a geek (including me) use cheap <$800 LCD projectors for movie night. Even though you need a dark room and the picture isn't as perfect as a TV, size matters and watching a big movie is so fun in itself. Try it.

rtype

Jan 21, 2004, 09:30 AM

DLP front projectors look better than anything else on the market for video as far as I'm converned and easily go up to 120". This strikes me as a good thing if you're interested in video and accuracy. People are so eager to pay $3k for a 30" LCD and I wonder if they've even considered a projector. (I have a projector--can you tell?)

I doubt Apple would go with HP despite their existing relationship. When Apple gets something OEM from someone else, they usually go with the best. HP is clearly not the best. Infocus and Marantz would be the two to consider.

crenz

Jan 21, 2004, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by rtype
People are so eager to pay $3k for a 30" LCD and I wonder if they've even considered a projector.

But the LCD can not only be used for videos, but also for serious work :)... so if you spend money, might as well spend it on something that has more than one use. (Unless you need to do a lot of presentations.)

Centurion

Jan 21, 2004, 09:47 AM

OK. Here’s the scoop…it really isn’t a DV stand-alone projector, but rather a revision of the G4 Cube, with a built-in projector. It’s a combination projector and computer! This is the 20th Anniversary device. It also has a 1.6 GHZ G5 processor. Wait till Saturday, you’ll see.

Dont Hurt Me

Jan 21, 2004, 10:00 AM

I doubt it, Apple needs a real consumer product hit. another expensive cube with a expensive projector isnt going to help them. a plasma tv or even a large crt is still way better then a projector. apple has to focus on the consumer line and what the consumer wants. projector isnt on many lists that i have seen.

stingerman

Jan 21, 2004, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
i doubt the way to increase your allready dismal selling consumer line is to add a projector to imac, if anything it would kill the line. think of what those projectors cost plus a computer. no a better idea is a consumer tower with the g5 in it half the size of a protower. how many people would want a projector imac and afford it? i wouldnt want one.

A projector fits into the Notebook ecology. Especially for businessmen who carry a projector along with their Notebook. If you are an Exec on the road a lot and giving presentations regularly, than it would be a perfect fit. An Apple Notebook, Keynote and thin and light hi res projector. It would make the perfect executive kit. If you include iLife to allow you to make sophisticated presentations with iPhoto and iMovie effects it really makes for an awesome combination. Apple is all about creating ecologies of products.

Dont Hurt Me

Jan 21, 2004, 10:11 AM

that me be a valid point but i still think apple has to get back to the masses and the current consumer line doesnt have people in line to buy. consumers out number those pros' 10000-1 yet apple is going after that 1 instead of those 100000.

desdomg

Jan 21, 2004, 10:20 AM

Reading on the forum that started this rumor it appears projectors are massively overpriced - could Apple come in with the xserve of DPs?

the_mole1314

Jan 21, 2004, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by penguin
I think I see where this is going.

When Apple addressed digital music they built the Music Store and the best AND coolest device to play MP3s on.

So in the future when Apple addresses downloadable movies we will have the Apple Movie Store and the iProjector to display your movies the way movies were intended to be viewed. BIG.
Front projectors will soon be THE coolest way to watch your movie. I think many a geek (including me) use cheap <$800 LCD projectors for movie night. Even though you need a dark room and the picture isn't as perfect as a TV, size matters and watching a big movie is so fun in itself. Try it.

Well, downloading songs if infinatly more faster than downloading movies. It takes hours on a standard DSL/Cable connection, while songs take seconds, or a minute.

I think rumor is crazy and odd enough to be true. It's not like someone can make this stuff up, like new cinima displays, or the iBox.

rtype

Jan 21, 2004, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by crenz
But the LCD can not only be used for videos, but also for serious work :)... so if you spend money, might as well spend it on something that has more than one use. (Unless you need to do a lot of presentations.)
And projectors don't have more than one use? I use one for computer applications, home theater and video games. One of the primary uses of laptops in business is presentation. Sales people often travel with a laptop and projector.

Projectors are a growth industry and the prices of projectors are falling rapidly. I'm not a rumor informant or anything but logically speaking, it would very much make sense for an Apple branded OEM projector to appear on the market.

Dont Hurt Me

Jan 21, 2004, 10:35 AM

there was a rumor about a new form factor imac and a display that was as different to the Lcd imac as it was from the crt imac. my guess would be a wireless display?or a seperated display from the imac which would be a new form factor for imac. a new projector line with computer is to soon, you know how long it takes to download anything even on dsl. this is page 2.

bcstanding

Jan 21, 2004, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
I doubt it, Apple needs a real consumer product hit. another expensive cube with a expensive projector isnt going to help them. a plasma tv or even a large crt is still way better then a projector. apple has to focus on the consumer line and what the consumer wants. projector isnt on many lists that i have seen.

I'd have to disagree with the comment about a plasma tv or a large crt being way better than a projector. If you have a light controlled, decent sized room (like a family room in a basement), a projector is an excellent option.

Also, a projector isn't on many lists I've seen either, but couldn't you have said the same thing about an MP3 player before the iPod?

J-Ray1000

Jan 21, 2004, 11:07 AM

What if this new projector is the projector equivalent of the iPod? Meaning, it simply has a hard-disk in it?

The most viable option for this is uploading Keynote presentations to be shown on the road. Or iPhoto slides-shows. Or movies even ripped through a new Quicktime that's more like iTunes.

At home, it could be like an integrated tivo to store movies and play them back. I doubt it would stream from Airport, but it may simply download them wirelessly onto its own disk.

I don't think the market is there for this kind of thing, but hey, no one thought the iPod had one either. Of course, why have this integrated with a projector instead of simply a stand alone hard disk recorder?

Dont Hurt Me

Jan 21, 2004, 11:08 AM

you still have people moving in front of it plus it sucks up a lot of power. big flat screens to me are the way. just hang one where ever you want it. with a projector you still need the viewing surface and a mounting for the projector. If apple did this it would be a product looking for a market.

rtype

Jan 21, 2004, 11:16 AM

CalfCanuck

Jan 21, 2004, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by J-Ray1000
What if this new projector is the projector equivalent of the iPod? Meaning, it simply has a hard-disk in it?

The most viable option for this is uploading Keynote presentations to be shown on the road. Or iPhoto slides-shows. Or movies even ripped through a new Quicktime that's more like iTunes.

At home, it could be like an integrated tivo to store movies and play them back. I doubt it would stream from Airport, but it may simply download them wirelessly onto its own disk.

I don't think the market is there for this kind of thing, but hey, no one thought the iPod had one either. Of course, why have this integrated with a projector instead of simply a stand alone hard disk recorder?
There already are several out there that have some sort of Flash Ram, but the biggest problem out there is procrastination. Most speakers out on the road are hammering out changes at their laptops and dropping these into Powerpoint until right before their presentation.

If someone is travelling away from the office for a presentation, there's a lot of money and time involved, esp if it's in another city. Most would not sacrifice the 9 lbs savings of travelling without their laptop only to screw up their presentation. Or if they did, they'd never do it a second time.

CalfCanuck

Jan 21, 2004, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
If apple did this it would be a product looking for a market.
Absolutely. Why do I always have to agree with you?:D

People talk about how great projectors are, and how they might displace LCD's. But what about the cost of bulbs? These ain't cheap - often pushing $300 for the ones rated at thousands of hours (about 20 cents an hour). The cheaper bulbs often have rated lives of as little as 150 hours. So would a desktop user want to drop $50 every month to replace bulbs?

On the strategic level, since this is a market that Apple is currently not involved in, it would take a LOT of resouces to let people know about this. There are entire magazines (and web sites - that's were this rumor came from) dedicated to this market, and while the margins are high, so are the sales costs. That means Apple would have to start advertising from scratch, in a market already awash with products. Bring out those $$$$$$

If true, this is bad for us mainstream Mac folks. As I noted earlier, you sell these one at a time, because workgroups only need one, so Apple would have to devote a lot of resources to finding each of those sales. With CPUs, if you get your foot into a work group, you can sell a bunch of units, along with displays, software, etc. Look at the supercomputer - sold over a 1000 units, and now others will follow given the Xserve.

The only way it wouldn't be a major distraction is if Apple just dropped it on it's web site as another display option when you were buying a CPU and didn't try to push it with marketing. But if that was the case, why bother?

bcstanding

Jan 21, 2004, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
you still have people moving in front of it plus it sucks up a lot of power. big flat screens to me are the way. just hang one where ever you want it. with a projector you still need the viewing surface and a mounting for the projector. If apple did this it would be a product looking for a market.

How much do you have to spend? :) Like I said, a projector is great under certain conditions. I'm looking forward to getting one when I build a family room in my basement next summer...

I have to agree though that this doesn't make sense for Apple to do this unless they're doing something different that what other projector products are. If it's just a me-too projector, that seems rather pointless.

Tux Kapono

Jan 21, 2004, 11:39 AM

I must be the only one here who doesn't know what FP stands for.

Flynnstone

Jan 21, 2004, 11:42 AM

rtype

Jan 21, 2004, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Tux Kapono
I must be the only one here who doesn't know what FP stands for.
Context. :) Front Projection

neilw

Jan 21, 2004, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Flynnstone
It's not impossible. It's actually quite possible.
Goto www.infocus.com , they sell projectors and a accessory called LiteShow.
It is limited by bandwidth.

That sort of thing works for slow-moving business presentations, but is not practical or intended for home theater, which is what the original poster was saying. There definitely seems to be some confusion whether the rumored product is geared for home or business use. The original posting in AVS forum suggests home theater use.

I can envision a home theater projector with built-in airport, that could act as a client for a Mac serving images from iPhoto or iMovie (in addition to fulfilling its primary purpose via DVI input.) However, it just doesn't seem like a particularly profitable avenue for Apple to pursue.

I could more easily believe them going into the business projector market, though I'm not sure exactly why they'd go there either.

Frankly, if Apple entered this market without first (or at least simultaneously) addressing the problems with its consumer Mac line-up, I'd really have to start wondering what they're thinking.

Originally posted by Sol
The forum that started this rumour seems full of people who think "Macs are too expensive" but at least one person had the common sense to point out that the Apple Displays are very cheap compared to competing products.

Most people think "Macs are too expensive", including a lot of Mac owners.

DaveGee

Jan 21, 2004, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by Centurion
OK. Here’s the scoop…it really isn’t a DV stand-alone projector, but rather a revision of the G4 Cube, with a built-in projector. It’s a combination projector and computer! This is the 20th Anniversary device. It also has a 1.6 GHZ G5 processor. Wait till Saturday, you’ll see.

Heh... too funny...

The heat of a 1.6 GHz PowerMac system (CPU, HD, etc) and you wanna add the heat of a projector bulb?!?!?!?

The freakin box would melt! :p

All kidding aside.. heat really is a major problem tho.

Unless that is you had some SERIOUS fans at work - FAN NOISE and projectors are not a good mix... Just ask any home theater geek (like me). I have an 8' screen with a DLP projector... thank you very much! :D but it's been outta action since the bulb died and it'll cost me $450 for a new one...

Dave

IJ Reilly

Jan 21, 2004, 12:59 PM

The last time these peripheral rumors got started, they turned out to be new Belkin products (announced by Apple, and sold through the Apple Store, but not Apple products). In fact, custom add-ons for Apple products built by others seems like a bit of a trend lately. So if you ask me, Apple will most likely begin selling a high-end projector through the Apple store, possibly exclusively, but it will probably be made by somebody else. Samsung would be a good bet.

IJ Reilly

Jan 21, 2004, 01:28 PM

Another thought: What about a projector with an ADC connector? If the projector could be powered from the Mac (don't know if that's feasible), it would cut down the number of line cords to one, and possibly none for shorter presentations. Apple could offer this projector in a bundle with a 12" PB, Keynote, a Bluetooth remote, and a custom-designed bag from Brenthaven. Somebody who does a lot of dog-and-pony shows might find that combo to be irresistible.

Jonnod III

Jan 21, 2004, 01:42 PM

Well, in the UK you get good tax relief on computer hardware. Strikes me that a projector from the Home Cinema room that occasionally goes out to do presentations would qualify for tax relief....

DaveGee

Jan 21, 2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Another thought: What about a projector with an ADC connector? If the projector could be powered from the Mac (don't know if that's feasible), it would cut down the number of line cords to one, and possibly none for shorter presentations. Apple could offer this projector in a bundle with a 12" PB, Keynote, a Bluetooth remote, and a custom-designed bag from Brenthaven. Somebody who does a lot of dog-and-pony shows might find that combo to be irresistible.

Two problems...

1 - Todays projectors draw a fair bit of power for the special bulbs maybe more than ADC can provide.

2 - Laptops (most common device connected to a projector) don't have ADC at all.

Dave

CalfCanuck

Jan 21, 2004, 01:57 PM

No matter how you slice it, this market is never going to be that huge for Apple. Most projectors sales are for Windows PC's, and few of those would even know that Apple had a projector (if this thread is true), let alone seriously consider it.

While a small minority of Mac users might want an Apple device, most Apple users shopping for a projector would consider all manufacturers, not just Apple's. So any successful unit would have to be better than what's currently out there - and that's a pretty saturated market, and one constantly changing.

Of course Apple could go path of least resistance and just rebox an existing unit, but that adds the least value for Apple (as well as for Mac users).

With so many other PRESSING demands that would really add to their bottom line, I just hope this isn't a true rumor.

penguin

Jan 21, 2004, 02:08 PM

Has anyone ever made a projector using white leds instead of bulbs? No bulb replacement cost and it would run cool. Then hook it up with the same wireless technology that sony's new TV anywhere is using. Maybe even dock it into an optional rear projection box. Sounds good to me.

jettredmont

Jan 21, 2004, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Tux Kapono
I must be the only one here who doesn't know what FP stands for.

Front Projector, in the current context.

As opposed to "Rear Projection" (most non-flat-panel big-screen TVs).

It also stands for "Flat Panel", which could be the source of some confusion (when jargons attack ...) Possibly even the source of this rumor ("Apple is working on a new FP display." "A new FP?" "Yup, a new FP. Awesome specs, too." --> "Hey, folks, Apple's working on this awesome new Front Projector that's going to blow away the competition!" ...)

AndrewMT

Jan 21, 2004, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Superdrive
Great maybe a Powerbook G5 is in this new line :D

Samsung announced its ultra-thin 56" DLP projector screen at CES. DLPs are far superior to plasma and now they can be the same size! Not to mention, DLPs are usually half the cost of plasmas. Doesn't Samsung supply Apple with most of its displays?

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ts/ces/2004/ps/Samsung_HLP5685W_300.gif

boskie

Jan 21, 2004, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Vroem
If this would be possible it would exist. But it's impossible: the bandwith and speed needed by a monitor or projector is a magnitude larger than Airport or even gigabit ethernet (not to mention the latencies.)

This is not impossible:

http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/wirelessprojectors.htm

And,

http://www.projectorcentral.com/wi-fi.htm

Clearly show that there are products already available and viable for presenting both presentations and MPEG2 (7-8Mbps - DVD Spec quality) over bluetooth and 802.11b (11MBps) respectively. With the advent of 802.11g (54MBps) and the non-ratified other extensions of the Wi-Fi certification will bring MPEG2 HD hopefully up to full res.

If Apple comes out with a product like this i Will get of my ass and finish my Home Theatre Loft conversion!

Bring it on.

neilw

Jan 21, 2004, 02:44 PM

Neat. I am a huge fan of DLP rear-projectors, finding their picture to be notably superior to plasma. I'm waiting for the price to come down a bit before diving in.

Still don't know how Apple would fit into all this...

Has anyone ever made a projector using white leds instead of bulbs? No bulb replacement cost and it would run cool. Then hook it up with the same wireless technology that sony's new TV anywhere is using. Maybe even dock it into an optional rear projection box. Sounds good to me.

I don't think white LEDs (even groups of them) could come anywhere *near* the intensity of the bulbs they use in projectors. I'm sure that if/when they become suitable for such use, manufacturers will try to use them. The expense and longevity of the bulb is one of the negatives of projectors (both front and rear) right now...

AndrewMT

Jan 21, 2004, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by neilw

Still don't know how Apple would fit into all this...

An Apple branded and designed DLP with an iBox could be successful in the media center market where other's have failed (i.e. Gateway).

IJ Reilly

Jan 21, 2004, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by DaveGee
Two problems...

1 - Todays projectors draw a fair bit of power for the special bulbs maybe more than ADC can provide.

2 - Laptops (most common device connected to a projector) don't have ADC at all.

Dave

I don't know how much power the ADC connector can handle, but I suspect it's more dependent on the Mac it's connected to then any inherent limit on ADC. But you are right -- I thought the most recent crop of PBs had ADC, but it turns out they've only got DVI. Of course Apple could always release a new line of PBs with ADC...

denjeff

Jan 21, 2004, 04:03 PM

Everyone sais downloading a movie on cable is too slow... I have a cable line and if I downlaod stuff from an Apple server, I get speeds up to 800 KB/sec (now most people will say "whow :eek:" :D ). My point is, it would take only 10 minutes to download high quality movies... That s less then going to a shop to buy a DVD (even if you know I live in a quite big city).

They could have a market for movies, especially with their very compressed wavlet implementation named pixlet... And Steve has rather good contacts in the movie world. I would say "go for it!!!"... An iBeam would kick ass!!!

AndrewMT

Jan 21, 2004, 04:19 PM

jettredmont

Jan 21, 2004, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by neilw
I don't think white LEDs (even groups of them) could come anywhere *near* the intensity of the bulbs they use in projectors. I'm sure that if/when they become suitable for such use, manufacturers will try to use them. The expense and longevity of the bulb is one of the negatives of projectors (both front and rear) right now...

LED's can be made to be extremely bright, specifically because of the low heat generation.

The problem with white LEDs is that they're new and relatively expensive to make (at high brightnesses). And, they still have a noticeable bluish tinge to them.

Granted, most TV sets you buy will be pre-configured with a bluish tinge (and 75%+ of all consumers won't change it or even notice it), but "white" LED's are even moreso ...

But, yes, the bulb issue is the primary problem with FP systems today. Along with, of course, the fan noise necessary to just keep the housing cool enough so it doesn't melt or burn down your house ...

7on

Jan 21, 2004, 05:55 PM

I love projectors and one will probably grace a future home. However, Apple releasing a projector is kinda far-fetched. I can see Samsung licensing a projector for Apple to sell in stores, but other than that there is 0% possiblity of an Apple projectors. The main reason is when I watch movies, I NEED the room pitch black. Same requirements as projectors. However, I'm the only person I've met who does this (probably other than the other projector-philes here). Apple would have a hard time selling these unless they agreed to build a windowsless (excuse the pun) room to house the projector in.

desdomg

Jan 21, 2004, 05:56 PM

Sounds like a projector from Apple could be quite nice, and another spoke to the digital hub . They already make excellent video production software. Would make sense to produce some video playback hardware too. Personally, FPs caught my eye a few years ago when I saw several folks in the loft building I lived in then had them. But at several $1000 for a decent one they were, sadly, out of my league. So bring on the Apple FP. Although, hang on, that rumor is posted in the $3500 and above forum!! Ouch.

backdrifter

Jan 21, 2004, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by denjeff
Everyone sais downloading a movie on cable is too slow... I have a cable line and if I downlaod stuff from an Apple server, I get speeds up to 800 KB/sec (now most people will say "whow :eek:" :D ). My point is, it would take only 10 minutes to download high quality movies... That s less then going to a shop to buy a DVD (even if you know I live in a quite big city).

They could have a market for movies, especially with their very compressed wavlet implementation named pixlet... And Steve has rather good contacts in the movie world. I would say "go for it!!!"... An iBeam would kick ass!!!

I can't believe people still bring up Pixlet in the context of downloaded movies. Both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 achieve more compression than Pixlet. Pixlet is meant as an intra-studio or inter-studio movie exchange format, where quality needs to be maintained, but even a little compression is good.

Any download format would likely distribute movies in MPEG-4, which achieves the best compression to quality ratio. That being said, about the smallest file size you could achieve for an average movie would be 750 MB while still maintaining acceptable quality. What you get on your cable modem is is 800 Kbps, as in bits not bytes. So, lets do a calculation:

750 MB = 750000000 B = 6000000000 b (bits) / 800000 bps = 7500 seconds = 125 minutes ~ 2 hours

Now, that is assuming a near utopia. Distributing movies that will pass for acceptable on a home theater system, will likely mean at least double the quality of my example (4 hours to download). In addition, the majority of the population would be lucky to achieve average d/l rates of 200 kbps (16 hours to download).

So, if Apple were to sell movies for download, this 16 hour download figure would be about average for a standard definition movie given todays broadband figures. High definition movies would take 3-4 times as long. This will pretty much saturate your broadband connection as well, slowing down any other Internet activities you may be doing.

In short, while it could be done, a quality movie download service is very cumbersome to do correctly today. There are corners to cut in order to achieve better percieved performance, but all things considered a trip to Blockbuster or a Netflix account is probably a better experience.

Edit: Miswrote bytes instead of bits. Corrected.

mkrishnan

Jan 21, 2004, 06:28 PM

I don't suppose anyone here has used the InFocus projector which the LiteShow wireless adaptor? IIRC, it's even Mac-patible.

Anyway, it's expensive, but it sounds like fun. It'd be way cool to mount one on the ceiling in the living room and then run it from an iBook. ;)

gooddog

Jan 21, 2004, 07:34 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CalfCanuck You can make a decent markup on the units, but you only sell one to an entire workgroup, rather than one for every user.

*******

Teachers, CalfCanuck, t-e-a-c-h-e-r-s ....
that's 80 or 90 units sold per school.

And then ... iBooks, etc.

These things cost less than an iBook now.

gooddog

Jan 21, 2004, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by Vroem
If this would be possible it would exist. But it's impossible: the bandwith and speed needed by a monitor or projector is a magnitude larger than Airport or even gigabit ethernet (not to mention the latencies.)

*****

I have already seen a VERY compact digital projector that can be had with a wireless adaptor !!!! :)

AND GUESS WHO MAKES IT :) :) :)

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2003/030602g.html

---gooddog

TheFish

Jan 21, 2004, 08:38 PM

i wonder when apple enter in to the juice market? BU DUM CH!

mstur

Jan 22, 2004, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by Vroem
If this would be possible it would exist. But it's impossible: the bandwith and speed needed by a monitor or projector is a magnitude larger than Airport or even gigabit ethernet (not to mention the latencies.)

Projekctors which can be used in a wireless LAN have been on the market now for at least two years by Sharp and NEC. Toshiba even offers a projectors with Bluetooth connection !

Thus, would be not first for Apple anyway...

CalfCanuck

Jan 22, 2004, 07:01 AM

Teachers, CalfCanuck, t-e-a-c-h-e-r-s ....
that's 80 or 90 units sold per school.

And then ... iBooks, etc.

These things cost less than an iBook now.
Of all the people on this forum, I haven't forgotten teachers - the irony is that for the last 5 years I been working on educational software.

But I for one know how price sensative the educational market is. While some schools might buy projectors in those numbers, there are already MANY different models to chose from, from many diffrerent vendors. All of these companies would love an order for 80 or 90 units. Apple would have to have a product that is feature AND price competitive, no small order.

But my main point was that Apple needs to address the CORE of their product line in 2004, not be distracted by these incidentals.

When looking at education, if Apple came out with a great new replacement for the eMac (just as one example), they would sell 500,000 of their own products rather than 2000 repackaged projectors made by someone else. And try to gain back some of the market share of education that they've lost these last 3-4 years.

Jerry Spoon

Jan 22, 2004, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by ogminlo
I'm just puzzled as to how this fits in with the rest of their products... The projector market can't be as widespread as the digital music player market... Can it? Or would this product make it wide like the iPod did?

I don't know about the impact, but I just bought an Infocus X1 for just under a grand for work. That model and Epson's PowerLite (for about the same price) are totally geared towards consumer markets. I remember one of their brochures shows a bunch of kids playing playstation with the image projected on this huge wall.

There are people out there who would buy this in addition to or instead of their big $1500 ++ tv they're buying. And if Apple can offer some type of integration of the computer and the home entertainment system, maybe all the better.

tny

Jan 22, 2004, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by AlanAudio
In the Forum referred to, there was a lot of speculation about what sort of non-standard connector Apple might use.

My money would be on them using no connector at all - except as a fall-back option.

AirPort would be such a cool way to connect to a device like that and all modern Macs are able to use AirPort. It's widely used on the Dark side too, so you instantly get cross-platform opearation.

It would be so much better to just turn up and wirelessly log into the projector rather than to have to mess with leads, extensions and adapters.

Projectors are often located some distance from the person doing the presentation, so wireless offers significant safety and convenience advantages.

Having said that, I have my doubts about whether a video projector is really the right sort of product for Apple. They would have to come up with something amazing in order to differentiate it from the many others that are available.

We've got a wireless video projector here already. A pain to set up, though.

tny

Jan 22, 2004, 03:41 PM

AlanAudio

Jan 22, 2004, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by tny
We've got a wireless video projector here already. A pain to set up, though.

Quite - but it's not an Apple one !

Apple pride themselves on making things easy that were previously considered difficult.

Also, they don't always approach things in the obvious, conventional way.

If this actually is an Apple product, I can't imagine it being remotely like any other projector.

However it could be a third party product with Apple dedicated features. That's something that I think would be significantly less groung-breaking.

SiliconAddict

Jan 22, 2004, 05:31 PM

Hmm. Apple projectors. Assuming they aren't going to outrageously bloat the price and it’s competitive to Dell's projectors I'd get one for a home theater system.

Peyote

Jan 22, 2004, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by jettredmont
LED's can be made to be extremely bright, specifically because of the low heat generation.

The problem with white LEDs is that they're new and relatively expensive to make (at high brightnesses). And, they still have a noticeable bluish tinge to them.

Granted, most TV sets you buy will be pre-configured with a bluish tinge (and 75%+ of all consumers won't change it or even notice it), but "white" LED's are even moreso ...

But, yes, the bulb issue is the primary problem with FP systems today. Along with, of course, the fan noise necessary to just keep the housing cool enough so it doesn't melt or burn down your house ...

I don't know about the kelvin tempature of these LED's, but a company in the link below is manufacturing a lighting setup for Audi's A8 that uses 5 LED's as a dytime running lamp and a nighttime positioning lamp. From the picture, the light seems to be very white to me, but it's hard to tell. Regardless, I would expect this same technology to make it into projectors in the near future.

link: http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/audi_news/article_602.shtml

Squire

Jan 22, 2004, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by gooddog
Teachers, CalfCanuck, t-e-a-c-h-e-r-s ....
that's 80 or 90 units sold per school.

And then ... iBooks, etc.

These things cost less than an iBook now.

Would a school buy one for every teacher? I don't think so. They'd buy a few, put them in an A/V lab, and let the teachers sign them out when they were needed. (At least that's what they used to do with A/V equipment when I was in school.) Unless the curriculum was set up so that the teachers did most of their work on a computer-projector combo or the school had a surplus of funds, I can't see schools buying more than a handful of these.

Squire

mian

Jan 22, 2004, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Vroem
If this would be possible it would exist. But it's impossible: the bandwith and speed needed by a monitor or projector is a magnitude larger than Airport or even gigabit ethernet (not to mention the latencies.)

This might address the wireless speed issue.

http://www.1394ta.org/Press/2003Press/december/12.08.a.htm

Waluigi

Jan 22, 2004, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by Squire
Would a school buy one for every teacher?

Nope! However, most new schools that are built today put a projector into every classroom these days. In a new school, the budjet for technology is enourmous, and it is here where apple selling projectors could make them as much money as selling iPods. This is no joke.

My school district built a new school a few years ago, and they spent over 100 grand just to have gateway install the 300 machines! Money is no matter there since I could have gotten a few kids to do it for 1 grand! But the board of ed makes the decisions, and I have no say, they have to spend all of the money. Anyway, there was about 40 or so class rooms, which all had projectors that cost about 3 grand, and also really expensive projectors were bought for the library, and what not.

Point being, if apple taps into this market, even if it is only a few schools, they could hit the jack pot, espically since the most teachers are perfer apple, and it would be mac-friendly, easy system.

--Waluigi

Squire

Jan 22, 2004, 08:35 PM

Well that's a good thing. I guess it's a positive statement about the educational system. Go for it, then, Apple.

Squire

instantypo

Jan 23, 2004, 07:14 AM

The idea of a projector with built in HD is fantastic, I believe.

The "iBeam" could offer a hassle free set up for those who do presentations on the road. You loose the extra connection wires. You would still need your laptop which is OK because if you make any last changes in Keynote, then just upload or sync it through FireWire to the iBeam and you're all set to beam wirelessly.

But Apple would not forget the home users. Remember that Steve Jobs said that a video iPod is a bad idea since we appreciate video differently than audio. A little iPod in your ears can offer a BIG audio experience. A videoPod would always be inferior. That's why they might like the iBeam. Video needs to be watched BIG.

So, at home you would be able to import your DVD's, iDVD projects, iPhoto's, iMovies on to the iBeam using some sort of Codec and watch it everywhere and watch it BIG. You control it through a Bluetooth remote.

Ok, I would like this product a lot! And who knows what Airport Extreme would mean for such a product?

Rob

FriarTuck

Jan 23, 2004, 09:53 AM

Maybe Apple is just having some projectors custom built for the Apple stores. A little birdie told me they have not been happy with the installs at some locations....

encro

Jan 23, 2004, 09:53 AM

MPEG4, 802.11g, Rendezvous = Feasible Apple Projector

MCCFR

Jan 23, 2004, 10:29 AM

Just some thoughts:

Assuming that most people consider DVD to be sufficient quality, we should note that most DVDs never get close to exploiting the 8mb/sec theoretical maximum of the DVD-Video spec.

For the most part, most commercial titles appear to exploit around 50% of the bandwidth - i.e. 4mbits/sec - which equates to 500KB/sec.

Even with 1 megabit broadband, it's going to take 7 hours to download a movie - in other words, you'd have to decide before going to bed on Friday night what you wanted to watch on Saturday, and if you want a second movie - not unreasonble - you'd have to kick off that download just after breakfast.

So assuming that asking an audience to plan ahead rather than seek instant gratification is a viable model, you could - when megabit broadband is pervasive and cost-effective - launch an iMedia Store.

However, the key word is 'WHEN', which is not 'NOW' - so what would be the behind an Apple reinvention of the DLP projector.

This question needs a wider focus, namely would Apple consider a re-invention of the AV market - whether domestic or commercial - as a viable market and, if so, what might they set as design/functionality goals?

What if Apple chose its 20th anniversary to finally demonstrate how all of its technology works togther in a truly seamless way.

The glue to all of this is not Airport as some have said, but the rather more prosaic Firewire. 1394b (or what we call Firewire 800) has the ability to deliver the equivalent of around 20 typical DVD-quality streams (100 mbits) over standard CAT5 cabling to a distance of 100m. Using plastic optical fiber, you can send 40 streams to a distance of 50m without a repeater.

Firewire is the basis for other technologies such as the HAVi initiative, and is capable of acting as TCP/IP-capable wiring media. The former gives AV components the ability to network and present a virtual Java-based interface through a controller such as a television, which IP over Firewire effectively delivers the ability to create an Internet-enabled private AV network.

By using a combination of HAVi, Firewire and Airport Extreme, it would be possible for Apple to build a complete AV solutions family, including: -

A multi-tuner set-top box/DVR combo unit, capable of showing or recording upto 4 streams simultaneously: there is a market for such a device, and Sky (the Newscorp-owned satellite broadcaster for the UK) will release such a unit for SkyPlus shortly.

A 4 disk mini-RAID array, delivering 750GB of 'real' storage, or around 185 full-length movies based on DVD-quality and probably 3x/4x that figure based on satellite or analog quality.A truly genre-defining product; imagine a multi-person (Mom, Pop, 2.2 kids) where each person gets to have a personal media library (including iTMS/iTunes assets) and a personal EPG based on their viewing preferences. Imagine a Washington lobbying firm recording C-SPAN, CNN, BBC News 24 and Fox News so that the week's soundbites can be replayed and analysed ad nauseum.

A range of THX-certified DTS/Dolby EX decoder/amplifiers, for every budget/room size, with the option to link to Firewire-cabled digital speakers: Home cinema nirvana, easy cabling + a pure digital signal path until a DAC built into the speaker. Design one really clever decoder, and you could probably drive four or five separate 5.1/6.1 streams to different rooms.

And finally, either a 30" LCD for the kids, a DLP projector for the home cinema or a 50" plasma for those in between.

That's what I call an announcement.

mbs

Jan 23, 2004, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by backdrifter
Any download format would likely distribute movies in MPEG-4, which achieves the best compression to quality ratio. That being said, about the smallest file size you could achieve for an average movie would be 750 MB while still maintaining acceptable quality. What you get on your cable modem is is 800 Kbps, as in bits not bytes. So, lets do a calculation:

750 MB = 750000000 B = 6000000000 b (bits) / 800000 bps = 7500 seconds = 125 minutes ~ 2 hours

Now, that is assuming a near utopia. Distributing movies that will pass for acceptable on a home theater system, will likely mean at least double the quality of my example (4 hours to download). In addition, the majority of the population would be lucky to achieve average d/l rates of 200 kbps (16 hours to download).

(...)

Edit: Miswrote bytes instead of bits. Corrected. [/B]

Assume the 2 hours download for a 2 hour film would be reasonable: Why then not use streaming from a streaming server - the iVideo store? Say for the price you pay for lending a DVD you can view a streamed video, which can't be stored - the film industry would also be happy ... and you get instantaneous access at the time you want to see the movie.

Mac Dummy

Jan 23, 2004, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Macrumors
This AVSForum post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=354755) claims that Apple will be entering the high-end projector market.

Hey, great since Apple is big in the graphical design and entertainment field (ie: support design artists and recording artists with their professional tools). I hope they are able to bring a model to market costs $999 or less. Along with their higher end projectors.:)

MCCFR

Jan 23, 2004, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by mbs
Assume the 2 hours download for a 2 hour film would be reasonable: Why then not use streaming from a streaming server - the iVideo store? Say for the price you pay for lending a DVD you can view a streamed video, which can't be stored - the film industry would also be happy ... and you get instantaneous access at the time you want to see the movie.

But then you're back to the old Holy Grail of the entertainment industry, namely interactive television.

Every ITV model to date has been a failure, because the cost/stream equation just doesn't work using today's (i.e. any technology available between the mid-nineties and today) technology and bandwidth.

Far better to develop a 'fabric'-based approach to downloads - similar to Poisoned - and use a variable DRM model (48 hrs=$1.99, 5 days=$4.99, Perpetual=$14.99) to manage the consumer's usage so that you download the content (hundreds of megabytes) once, but download a DRM wrapper (hundreds of kilobytes) as many times as you need.

This means the consumer invests in the infrastructure rather than Akamai or whomever, and it also means that the consumer gets the ability to 'PVR' the content of their choice off-air.

The thing we really need to see is the next quantum shift in home network i.e. the move from megabit broadband (500kb to 1mb) to pervasive multi-megabit (>2mb) broadband within what I call the developed economies (i.e. the USA, Canada, Western Europe, Japan, Australia, New Zealand plus certain Asian economies like Singapore, South Korea and the like).

However, even then, I would still favour a multi-tier distribution mechanism with infrastructure companies like Akamai partnering with local telecoms providers to create highly available, highly localised pools of 'smart' storage (several terabytes) acting as content caches in every major telephone exchange, and several hundred gigabytes available in every CLEC/PTT wiring closet.

Is your content in the closet? No, well go to the exchange and see if its there. If not, go to the full content library on the net.

Awimoway

Jan 23, 2004, 04:35 PM

I thought this was a particularly good post from the source forum:

Clean Slate

As someone involved with both Apple and home theater, I think I can crystal ball this with some good guesses.

First, I guarantee this wont be a high end projector. It absolutely will not cost more than $2995. More likely this is a $1495 unit.

This is not a projector for home theater. Go back to Apple's pain points. What do you think Steve Jobs does every day? Watch Keynote.app presentations on crappy third-party projectors which universally have (1) the worst user interfaces for configuration known to man even on the very best of these beasts, (2) horrible industrial design vis a vis shoddy casing, shoddy lenses, shoddy video sync, and millions of complex options hidden away in inaccessible menus that require calling your IT person to fix, (3) neither DVI nor ADC nor any other acceptable connector according to Apple. The PAIN POINT is that everybody with an Apple laptop walks around and needs a funky adapter to hookup to these shoddy projectors. What better way to fix that problem than taking a 10 ton club and pounding these losers out of the market. At worst, it will make the competition sit up and start paying attention to their products.

Really, this low-mid range business projector market is quite ripe for the picking. Like MP3 players years ago, it is inhabited only by companies that couldn't care less about creating an insanely great product and simply add another few irrelevant features every year packed into their badly integrated products.

Apple already has a display division (unlike the printer division they nuked years ago, they're quite serious about displays). These engineers haven't got much to do. They're already years ahead of the competition. Dell's best computer display is a mediocre 20" LCD (ignoring their OEM LCD television nonsense). Apple has a 23" 1080p resolution reference quality graphic design screen that sells like hotcakes.

So what do these people do? OK, they can take the same displays and put them in aluminum cases to handle the latest fad, but these are serious and top notch industrial engineers. You think they're spinning wheels? I think not. So about a year ago (again I'm just hypothesizing here) Apple assigned a group of them to work on an Apple Cinema Projector. Crushing the entire low-mid range business projector market, it would feature 1280x1024 LCD resolution with very high brightness, one ADC port, one DVI port, one VGA port for old-timers, and finally a set of HD component inputs to hook it up to your average home theater setup. All of this packaged in a small, sturdy, aluminum casing.

At $1500, Apple gets 60% market share in 12 months by which time they introduce the version with the iPod dock integrated which plays video effects synchronized to your iPod and integrating with a remote control for both projector and iPod.

The remainder of the market cowers in fear and runs away leaving the entire $800- $3K projector market to Apple.

Apple will never ever enter the true low end projector market, nor would they enter the high end home theater market.

These and other devices would be introduced on February 3 in a special 20th anniversary press event.

Reminder: I don't know anything. But I'd sure like all the above to be true.

(crazy "what if" side idea: put all the guts into the small aluminum case and put the projection eye and lamp onto a metal snake perhaps even suitable for mounting on the top of a laptop screen like the iSight. Think of the Pixar light for instance -- this is the Pixar light productized into a projector. And Ives will get another gold star.)

backdrifter

Jan 23, 2004, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by mbs
Assume the 2 hours download for a 2 hour film would be reasonable: Why then not use streaming from a streaming server - the iVideo store? Say for the price you pay for lending a DVD you can view a streamed video, which can't be stored - the film industry would also be happy ... and you get instantaneous access at the time you want to see the movie.

Streaming would work in that situation, but that situation is the exception, not the norm. That was quoted at 800 Kbps average download rate. The norm would be more around 200 for broadband users, so the download would take 8 hours. If you did a streaming solution in this scenario, you would have to wait 6 hours for enough content to watch the movie with no interruptions or rebuffering.

So, the broadband data rates are a very limiting factor for distributing movies at decent quality/resolution levels. It may get there in a few years, but its not there today.

Another thing to note would be the cost factor. As iTunes stands today, it makes very little profit from the download business. Running a video download service would be exponentially more costly than music. With music, each persons download time for a song or album is in the seconds to minutes range. However, for a high volume movie store, you would have to sustain each individual connection for hours at a time. In the music store, each connection is opened and closed fairly quickly, eliminating most of the load on the servers. Due to the fact that movie download times are longer, the number of simultaneous connections to a given server would be far larger. This, in turn, means the bandwidth of the server needs to be much greater, as it has to serve data to more clients at a time. The solutions for these problems are not easy or cheap.

Mord

Jan 23, 2004, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by AndrewMT
Samsung announced its ultra-thin 56" DLP projector screen at CES. DLPs are far superior to plasma and now they can be the same size! Not to mention, DLPs are usually half the cost of plasmas. Doesn't Samsung supply Apple with most of its displays?

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ts/ces/2004/ps/Samsung_HLP5685W_300.gif

No lg supplys the lcd's in studio displays

Mord

Jan 23, 2004, 05:13 PM

on the subject of HD projectors there is no way that that is possible I was part of the staff of a HD sceminar and they had a jvc HD projector and that cost £100,000!!!! the next one up could only be run by a rack of xserves the reolution was so high but for realisticly priced projectors 1024x768 is the limit that is the reason that I will be investing in two 30" apple studio displays for my g4 cube as soon as apple announces them

Squire

Jan 23, 2004, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Hector
No lg supplys the lcd's in studio displays

LG may, in fact, supply Apple with some LCDs but so does Samsung. According to this MacWorld article (August 17, 2000), Apple invested $100 million in Samsung's LCD division. The monitor sitting in front of me (iMac 17") is, I believe, exactly the same monitor sold by Samsung.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_news.cfm?NewsID=1725

Squire

blackcrayon

Jan 23, 2004, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by backdrifter
Streaming would work in that situation, but that situation is the exception, not the norm. That was quoted at 800 Kbps average download rate. The norm would be more around 200 for broadband users, so the download would take 8 hours. If you did a streaming solution in this scenario, you would have to wait 6 hours for enough content to watch the movie with no interruptions or rebuffering.

For most broadband users yes, but the original poster meant 800KiloBYTES per second, not kilobit... I have gotten up to 1.2 megabytes per second with my broadband service (cable modem).. I understand it is very rare (Cablevision/Optimum Online is one of the fastest ISPs in the country however).. At approx 1 megabyte per second, downloading a decent mpeg 4 movie *would* only take 20 minutes or so... Wild to be able to download at faster than you could get data off of a CD-ROM a few years ago ;)

But the point remains that so few people have that much download bandwidth, that it's just not practical yet to start a service based on it...

rainman::|:|

Jan 24, 2004, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by Hector
on the subject of HD projectors there is no way that that is possible I was part of the staff of a HD sceminar and they had a jvc HD projector and that cost £100,000!!!! the next one up could only be run by a rack of xserves the reolution was so high but for realisticly priced projectors 1024x768 is the limit that is the reason that I will be investing in two 30" apple studio displays for my g4 cube as soon as apple announces them

high-definition projectors are currently on the market by several vendors. In fact, the projector I'm considering for my home theater is HDTV-ready, which is an incidental feature (i have little interest in HD). this is a $1500 projector.

paul

mkrishnan

Jan 24, 2004, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by paulwhannel
high-definition projectors are currently on the market by several vendors. In fact, the projector I'm considering for my home theater is HDTV-ready, which is an incidental feature (i have little interest in HD). this is a $1500 projector.

paul

Are HDTV-ready projectors ones that run at 1280x1024 and rescan images, or do they actually run at 1080P?

ClimbingTheLog

Jan 24, 2004, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Peyote
From the picture, the light seems to be very white to me, but it's hard to tell. Regardless, I would expect this same technology to make it into projectors in the near future.

Indeed, better color gamut than NTSC:

http://lumileds.com/solutions/LCD/lcd_index.html

Verrry interesting.

AlanAudio

Jan 24, 2004, 06:39 PM

What sort of intensity is possible with these LED systems ?

Seeing how current projectors typically offer something like 1,000 to 2,000 Lumens, LEDs would presumably need offer comparable brightness.

Are they up to it yet ?

rtype

Jan 25, 2004, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by mkrishnan
Are HDTV-ready projectors ones that run at 1280x1024 and rescan images, or do they actually run at 1080P?
All projectors are progressive by nature. Most will convert to progressive if fed an interlaced signal--some do this better than others. Most of the consumer ones use the same deinterlacer that is found in popular progressive DVD players... and I've found this to be not nearly as good as can be achieved with a cheap PC running dScaler (open source deinterlacer). This is always limited to the resolution of the projector, however. Most projectors will accept a variety of formats but will ultimately only convert to their native resolution--and again, some do this better than others. I use the same computer (running dScaler) to also do the scaling by running it in the resolution that is native to my projector. This way, the projector only has to actually project the video which is kindof its core competence. Higher resolution projectors of the same quality tend to cost more.

mkrishnan

Jan 25, 2004, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by rtype
All projectors are progressive by nature. Most will convert to progressive if fed an interlaced signal--some do this better than others. Most of the consumer ones use the same deinterlacer that is found in popular progressive DVD players...

Sorry, I meant to ask if it's actually 1080P native. I know they get very close. A lot of consumer flat panel TVs have this issue too....

So are you actually able to receive TV in real time, pipe it through the de-interlacer, and put it on the projector, and if so, does it work pretty well?

BTW, are you "rtype" because of cars or video games? :) I'm a radiant silvergun fan myself....

rtype

Jan 25, 2004, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by mkrishnan
Sorry, I meant to ask if it's actually 1080P native. I know they get very close. A lot of consumer flat panel TVs have this issue too....

So are you actually able to receive TV in real time, pipe it through the de-interlacer, and put it on the projector, and if so, does it work pretty well?

BTW, are you "rtype" because of cars or video games? :) I'm a radiant silvergun fan myself....
Yes, there are projectors that do 1080P natively so you either have to feed it a 1080P signal or let it upconvert whatever you do feed it to 1080P. I only have the Infocus X1 which does 640x480P native, which is great for standard resolution TV and DVD.

And yeah, it's from the Irem game. I'm a Silvergun fan too, though--I've always loved Treasure.

alandail

Jan 25, 2004, 03:22 PM

As a mac user who also has a home theater

http://homepage.mac.com/alandail/Theater/PhotoAlbum32.html

it's funny seeing how how many people on the AVS forum don't understand Apple and on the Apple and how many people here don't understand home theater.

If the AVS source of this rumor is Alan Gouger, it should be a main page rumor and not a page 2 rumor. As a long time AVS reader, Alan Gouger wouldn't post the rumor unless he was confident in his sources.

And the speculation that Apple would develop a FP for the business market only is absurd. Remember, Steve Jobs is head of Pixar and Apple is the company that dominates the consumer music market with the iPod and iTunes. There's not a chance that Apple does a front projector that doesn't target home theater. Why even bother if it's just for business?

My expectation is Apple will target home theater and will bring innovation that expands the home theater market. There is a difference between watching something like Friends on a television and watching something like Star Wars or Finding Nemo at a theater. A FP brings that theater experience home.

Look at it this way, for the $2500 you get a 42" plasma screen from gateway that doesn't even do HDTV. For the same price I got a FP that gives me a 12 foot wide screen HDTV movie theater. Movies are supposed to immerse you. To get immersed, the video needs to fill your field of vision. You can't get that with a 42" plasma (or any plasma or widescreen television).

I, for one, can't wait to see what Apple comes up with.

rtype

Jan 25, 2004, 03:50 PM

Home theater and business use are not mutual exclusives. The biggest growth section of the projector market is in the crossover projectors--small projectors that are small enough to be portable presentation projectors that also perform well in home theater. What would be silly would be to ignore *either* viable market.

mkrishnan

Jan 25, 2004, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by rtype
Home theater and business use are not mutual exclusives. The biggest growth section of the projector market is in the crossover projectors--small projectors that are small enough to be portable presentation projectors that also perform well in home theater. What would be silly would be to ignore *either* viable market.

Totally agree. DLP was huge for accomplishing both ends. This is definitely on my want list.

What about bulb life....is the projector your main TV, and are you worried about it burning out? I know this was also the question in an earlier thread about flat-panels, but I've seen a lot more burnt out projectors than FPs. On paper, it doesn't seem a big issue, but TV's get turned off and on so much more than computers....

(Oh, BTW, I hear there's a new R-Type game coming out for GBA... Mmmmm.... :D)

LethalWolfe

Jan 25, 2004, 05:56 PM

ogminlo
I would wager that DV is higher quality than what these projects usually get. DV is a broadcast quality format. Now will you get b'cast quality from a $500 consumer camera? Of course not, but use a 3-chip pro/prosumer camera and you will.

MCCFR,
There is no theoretical limit for MPEG-2 used for DVDs. The limit is 10mb/s. The rule of thumb, though, is try not to go above 8mb/s because that can cause some DVD players to choke and not display the video correctly.

Lethal

DaveGee

Jan 25, 2004, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by alandail
As a mac user who also has a home theater ... If the AVS source of this rumor is Alan Gouger, it should be a main page rumor and not a page 2 rumor. As a long time AVS reader, Alan Gouger wouldn't post the rumor unless he was confident in his sources.

Agreed 1000%!

Dave

windowsblowsass

Jan 25, 2004, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by Mason
I'm confused. By projectors do you mean like DLP televisions or am I completely missing it?
its talking about digital multimedia type projectors like epson makes

rtype

Jan 26, 2004, 12:06 AM

Bulbs burn out over time. Not buying a projector because the bulb will eventually burn out is kinda like deciding not to buy a lamp. I expect to get to about a year and a half on my first bulb and then spend $300. Your mileage will vary with usage.

I watch tv exclusively in the living room in the home theater system.

DaveGee

Jan 26, 2004, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by rtype
Bulbs burn out over time. Not buying a projector because the bulb will eventually burn out is kinda like deciding not to buy a lamp. I expect to get to about a year and a half on my first bulb and then spend $300. Your mileage will vary with usage.

I watch tv exclusively in the living room in the home theater system.

Exactly...

LCD burnout
Plasmas burnout
Rear Projection Bulbs burnout
Front Projection Bulbs burnout

It's the way of the world, nuthin but burnouts... :D

Dave

Squire

Jan 26, 2004, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by DaveGee
Exactly...

LCD burnout
Plasmas burnout
Rear Projection Bulbs burnout
Front Projection Bulbs burnout

It's the way of the world, nuthin but burnouts... :D

Dave

At least bulbs don't fade away. I think burning out is better. ;)

Squire

Wonder Boy

Jan 27, 2004, 11:58 AM

sos how much sense would it make to use a projector as your monitor? why get a 23 inch monitor for 2500 when i can get a screen as large as my wall for the same price?

CalfCanuck

Jan 27, 2004, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by Wonder Boy
sos how much sense would it make to use a projector as your monitor? why get a 23 inch monitor for 2500 when i can get a screen as large as my wall for the same price?
Not too much sense - this was my original discussion (5 pages ago) about bulbs, among other issues.

If the cost of these bulbs works out at about 20 cents an hour, that is pretty insignificant for a large entertainment system that will accomidate 10-20 people and provide a high impact viewing. Same goes for a class room or a professional presentation environment.

But for day to day, intensive use with a personal computer, that works out at $500 - 600 a year for bulbs, BEYOND the price of buying the unit and the NOISE of the fan running. (If you think CPU's are noisy, listen to one of these "turbojets".)

Finally, the resolution and total pixel count compared to a 23 inch LCD would be HORRIBLE. The 23" Apple is 1920 x 1200 pixels, for a total of about 2.3 million sq. pixels, for about $2000.

An projector at a similar $2000 price range is XGA (1024 x 768), or just over one third the number of pixels. Colors would be washed out as well.

While many are excited about the news in this thread, I still maintain that Apple would be better spending it's time in those areas it currently is selling (i.e. education) but where it's outdated product line is allowing sales to slip. It will take a LOT of cash to develop this projector market from scratch.

Keep focusing on it's core products and bring them up to date, then worry about the cream at the edge.

Wonder Boy

Jan 27, 2004, 12:32 PM

thats what i figured. thanks.

fluidfilm

Jan 27, 2004, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Centurion
OK. Here’s the scoop…it really isn’t a DV stand-alone projector, but rather a revision of the G4 Cube, with a built-in projector. It’s a combination projector and computer! This is the 20th Anniversary device. It also has a 1.6 GHZ G5 processor. Wait till Saturday, you’ll see.
I've spent $1K and $8K on video projectors for educational presentations, multi-media performances, and movie nights.

I have to say a little $3K G5 Cube with a spankin' new video projector smushed in there would be a hot DVD-player/Power Point (ahem, sorry, Keynote)/Gaming/Video fun box for everyone.

The only problem is that the 2 most intense heat-producing things on planet Earth besides volcanoes are a Mac Cube and a Video Projector. You'd need an aluminum heat sink the size of a server rack to run that sucker. :(

Darth Twinkie

Jan 28, 2004, 02:54 PM

The Moderator of AVS forum, Alan Grounger(I think that's the spelling), who was the first to post about this supposed Projector, posted another tidbit saying that the Projector will be introduced/announced in March or April.

mkrishnan

Jan 30, 2004, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by fluidfilm
I have to say a little $3K G5 Cube with a spankin' new video projector smushed in there would be a hot DVD-player/Power Point (ahem, sorry, Keynote)/Gaming/Video fun box for everyone.

The only problem is that the 2 most intense heat-producing things on planet Earth besides volcanoes are a Mac Cube and a Video Projector. You'd need an aluminum heat sink the size of a server rack to run that sucker. :(

Maybe you can put them in a small refrigerator? The only thing hotter than a DVD-player/Powerpoint/Gaming/Video fun box is a DVD-player/Powerpoint/Gaming/Video/Beer fun box. :D

But if you mounted that cube + projector on the ceiling and ran it off a wireless mouse and keyboard, that would be pretty slammin'.

Now, all you need is a converter for the Nintendo Wavebird to the cube, and a Wavebird in Mac clear plastic and white....

gooddog

Jan 30, 2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by CalfCanuck
Of all the people on this forum, I haven't forgotten teachers - the irony is that for the last 5 years I been working on educational software.

But I for one know how price sensative the educational market is. While some schools might buy projectors in those numbers, there are already MANY different models to chose from, from many diffrerent vendors. All of these companies would love an order for 80 or 90 units. Apple would have to have a product that is feature AND price competitive, no small order.

But my main point was that Apple needs to address the CORE of their product line in 2004, not be distracted by these incidentals.

When looking at education, if Apple came out with a great new replacement for the eMac (just as one example), they would sell 500,000 of their own products rather than 2000 repackaged projectors made by someone else. And try to gain back some of the market share of education that they've lost these last 3-4 years.

*****************************

True, true --- I agree,

BUT there is a madness to his method :)

( And thank you for your work in edsw ! )

Sadly, the funds are not lacking.

Our District just put four new winbox systems in each classroom.

Most teachers find them a nuisance because with only four vs. 37 kids in a room that is packed elbow-to-elbow, the question of who gets to use them creates more wasted time/effort than learning. Also, they came with no ed. software and license issues take forever at my school.

Also, teachers now have to watch/process vandalism, porno access, illegal downloads, viruses by the bushel, theft,...

Why not collect them into a lab ?
Because then we lose the idiot bumper-sticker : "Computers In Every Classroom" .

*** Just two of those systems would pay for a Toshiba TLP-S30 and a loaded iBook,
APC UPS, WACOM tablet. ******

New teachers are sucked dry of cash and energy by the Universities' racket : Emergency Credential course work.

---------

In my school, I was first to break down and dish out my own cash for my own system.

Word-of-mouth from my kids was awesome.

Next semester, 3 more teachers were emulating me, despite University vampire racket.

Now, as a big turnaround, my supervisor says he wishes he had known how useful projector/laptop sets are -- would have ordered some as I had SUGGESTED vehemently.

(1) So, the market is there for this.
(2) Every projector will sell a laptop.
(3) Apple makes great iBooks.

... I think SJ knows what he is doing:

As with ITMS & iPods , the real profits come from the *other* (iPod : iBook) associated sale.

--- see ???? :)

*********************************

rtype

Jan 30, 2004, 06:35 PM

Stupid question I know but...

Do iBooks have the same ability to display conenct to a "second screen" that Powerbooks have? Any laptop can display the same content on a monitor as on the laptop display, but I always thought a great advantage to the Powerbook is its ability to run "dual head" with a monitor. If iBooks can do this too, then I see why iBook+projector would be a valuable (and affordable) teaching combination.

Awimoway

Jan 30, 2004, 07:21 PM

alandail

Jan 30, 2004, 07:54 PM

From the Apple iBook G4 spec page

Get the big picture
The iBook features a video output port that displays VGA, S-Video and composite video signals, and it supports both NTSC and PAL formats. In other words, modesty is about the only thing that will keep you from showing your movies and presentations on a projector or big-screen TV. (1)

rtype

Jan 30, 2004, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by alandail
From the Apple iBook G4 spec page
That didn't answer the question at all.

gooddog

Jan 30, 2004, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by rtype
Stupid question I know but...

Do iBooks have the same ability to display conenct to a "second screen" that Powerbooks have? Any laptop can display the same content on a monitor as on the laptop display, but I always thought a great advantage to the Powerbook is its ability to run "dual head" with a monitor. If iBooks can do this too, then I see why iBook+projector would be a valuable (and affordable) teaching combination.

*****************************

rtype,

Most (newer) iBooks CAN be made to display "extended desktop" or "screen spanning" or "dual-head" *IF* they have the newer graphics card.

Google "dual head iBook" and you will find a hack that can be keyed into open firmware to un-cripple the iBook so that it will support dual head.

This may well void your warranty.

The person who wrote the hack has since folded it into an installer ( some people were not following his instructions and had trouble re-booting ).

I discovered that you must be using the
A/C adaptor ( NOT THE BATTERY ) power when keying in the hack -- else one of the commands will not be recognized and will be treated as text only, and the hack won't execute. But when I connected to the wall via the Apple A/C adaptor, it worked great.
YOU MUST BE VERY CAREFULL WHEN KEYING INTO OPEN FIRMWARE.

I finally did it by hand ( before the installer was developed) and it works just great.

It can be removed by zapping the PRAM ( see apple.com knowledge databse page to learn how to zap the PRAM or "reset volatile memory" etc.).

There is a temporary hack version that automatically disappears when you restart -- to try it out once.

I use my Dual USB 800 MHz iBook with a Toshiba TLP-S30 digital projector -- the dual head feature is GREAT !!! Most useful thing in the world.

Newer iMac's can also be hacked the same way.

JUST MAKE SURE YOU CHECK THAT YOU HAVE THE CORRECT GRAPHICS CARD --- READ CAREFULLY ALL OF HIS WEB PAGE.

Enjoy ---

alandail

Jan 31, 2004, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by rtype
That didn't answer the question at all.

oh - sorry, misread the question.

stingerman

Feb 8, 2004, 05:16 PM

Hate to add something to this rumor but I can't help myself:

While a front projector would be cool for the businessman I suspect that Apple is looking at it from the rear as well. That is, rear projector. A new chipset from TI, HD2+ DLP chip, is being used not only in front projector market but it makes for awesome rear projector TV's that put Plasma displays to shame. Not only are they brighter, they have up to a 4000:1 contrast. The biggest problem has been depth size and with this new chip set, we are talking 6" deep! That is as good as the Plasma display of the same size. And resolution is a very nice SD quality of 1280X720p (progressive, so it should be able to show 1080i as well with a simple conversion) with excellent black and richer color.

These TV's should be significantly cheaper than Plasma and LCD of the same size, and I dare say would eventually come down to CRT prices. If Apple were to integrate DVR and Rendezvous to access other computers and apps like iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie and iChat AV, etc. It would be a nice addition to the Digital lifestyle push.