The brand new Pentax at Photokina 2008

[SLC Flyfishing]

Looks like Pentax is taking a page out of Canon and Nikon's playbook and giving us a super low end enty level camera ala Rebel XS or D40.

It's called the Pentax K-M (M signifying 1000 in roman numerals, a throwback to the hugely popular K1000 of yester-year) it's supposed to have the image sensor and processing engine of the K200D, weather sealing, a 96% coverage pentamirror viewfinder, shake reduction, and is the smallest DSLR with in-body shake reduction available anywhere. The worst part is that the real Canon copying move is that it will have a flouro-plastic lens coupling, and Pentax will begin to release some entry level lenses with flouro-plastic lens mounts. This is all to save weight and cost I'm sure, and with all the features as long as newbies don't get hung up on the Canon or Nikon stigma I don't see this camera being beat in it's price segment.

While I'm personally not interested in this camera, I think it's probably a smart move, no doubt it's all the plastic fantastic rebel's that make cameras like the 1D series from Canon possible.

SLC

[mrgreen4242]

Most important question is how much? I'm going to feel pretty stupid if it's insanely cheap, since I just ordered a D40 last night... :p

Looks like Pentax is taking a page out of Canon and Nikon's playbook and giving us a super low end enty level camera ala Rebel XS or D40.

It's called the Pentax K-M (M signifying 1000 in roman numerals, a throwback to the hugely popular K1000 of yester-year) it's supposed to have the image sensor and processing engine of the K200D, weather sealing, a 96% coverage pentamirror viewfinder, shake reduction, and is the smallest DSLR with in-body shake reduction available anywhere. The worst part is that the real Canon copying move is that it will have a flouro-plastic lens coupling, and Pentax will begin to release some entry level lenses with flouro-plastic lens mounts. This is all to save weight and cost I'm sure, and with all the features as long as newbies don't get hung up on the Canon or Nikon stigma I don't see this camera being beat in it's price segment.

While I'm personally not interested in this camera, I think it's probably a smart move, no doubt it's all the plastic fantastic rebel's that make cameras like the 1D series from Canon possible.

SLC

[SLC Flyfishing]

Most important question is how much? I'm going to feel pretty stupid if it's insanely cheap, since I just ordered a D40 last night... :p


I'm not entirely certain about that, but I heard some speculation of a 2 lens kit (18-55 and 50-200) for just under $700. Don't quote me on that.

Pentax has offered price competitive alternatives to Nikon and Canon's entry level for years, but this is the first time that they've lowered quality to Canon and Nikon levels so I wouldn't be surprised to see it much cheaper than a rebel or D40/D60. Plus it's got weather sealing, which the others certainly don't.

SLC

[Phrasikleia]

It's an interesting move to add the weather sealing and take away the metal lens coupling. Brilliant marketing decision there, since people will see the former, but mostly be oblivious to the latter.

I found some more info on it. Here's a photo:

http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00Q/00Qu4V-71979584.jpg

And the pricing:

PENTAX Km with the DA L 18-55 mm: 499 EUR
with the DA 18-55 mm L and L DA 50-200 mm: 599 EUR

Available in November.

[Phrasikleia]

Oh, and they've also just announced a forthcoming DA 15mm Limited lens!

[SolracSelbor]

hopefully this creates new customers for Pentax.

Besides the k-m they are also releasing:

DA* 60-250 mm / 4,0 ED [IF] SDM = 1299 Euro, before Christmas at selected dealers

smc DA* 55 mm / 1,4 SDM = 549 Euro, before Christmas at selected dealers

AF160FC - ring flash = 399 Euro, at before Christmas at most dealers
----------------
to be seen at Photokina, no dates (spring/summer 2009 tentative) nor prices yet:
DA 15 / 4 Limited
DA 1.4x SDM rear converter

[Phrasikleia]

I hope this batch of releases will put some of the Pentax doomsayers on ice for a while. Clearly, Hoya is committed to growing the brand.

[gnd]

An interesting pic (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/bd74a536a1.jpg) :D

[Westside guy]

Well, other than the name it doesn't have a lot in common with the K1000 (I've still got one of those somewhere, gathering dust). In-camera shake reduction, auto focus. BAH! HUMBUG! :p

I suppose that, given the cost of the sensor is such a significant part of the camera's cost, it wouldn't be possible to have a "Digital K1000". If it were possible, I think it would be a great camera for learning photography - but then again, as I've mentioned before... I'm old. :D

[kwajo.com]

It's an interesting move to add the weather sealing and take away the metal lens coupling. Brilliant marketing decision there, since people will see the former, but mostly be oblivious to the latter.



The lens mount on the camera body is still going to be metal, it's the new 'DA-L' lenses that will have plastic mounts.

[Phrasikleia]

The lens mount on the camera body is still going to be metal, it's the new 'DA-L' lenses that will have plastic mounts.

Ah. That's not bad at all, then. If the specs and IQ pan out as rumored elsewhere, this camera will be a real contender.

[SLC Flyfishing]

And the pricing:

PENTAX Km with the DA L 18-55 mm: 499 EUR
with the DA 18-55 mm L and L DA 50-200 mm: 599 EUR

Available in November.

We'll have to see what the U.S. prices are like when they are announced.

SLC

[gnd]

And the pricing:
PENTAX Km with the DA L 18-55 mm: 499 EUR
with the DA 18-55 mm L and L DA 50-200 mm: 599 EUR


We'll have to see what the U.S. prices are like when they are announced.

My guess, 399 USD and 499 USD ...
It seems like everyone makes US prices by changing EUR to USD and dropping a hundred :rolleyes:

[mrgreen4242]

Hm, hope I'm not looking at my D40 in a month or two asking myself why I paid so much for it... seems like such a good deal now! Of course, we don't really know anything about this camera yet, since there's none out there for people to really test. Maybe it'll be areally great buy, or maybe it'll be a deal where you can spend a little more and get a better camera.

[mrgreen4242]

My guess, 399 USD and 499 USD ...
It seems like everyone makes US prices by changing EUR to USD and dropping a hundred :rolleyes:

I'm going to bet on the other way - $599 and $699. That's EU499/599, minus VAT, converted directy into USD ($1.44 for EU1.00). It's a decent price for a new model camera in that range, and it won't make me feel bad about getting a D40. :P (I paid $400 for mine, so even if the Pentax is nicer, it's not likely $200 better).

[gnd]

I'm going to bet on the other way - $599 and $699. That's EU499/599, minus VAT, converted directy into USD ($1.44 for EU1.00). It's a decent price for a new model camera in that range, and it won't make me feel bad about getting a D40. :P (I paid $400 for mine, so even if the Pentax is nicer, it's not likely $200 better).

Well, since it's kind of a stripped down K200D, and K200D with a kit lens can be had for just under 600$ this one has to be less. I should revise my guess to somewhere between 450$ and 500$.
I'm hoping the price for a K20D would come down a bit too, so I can get one :)

[SLC Flyfishing]

I'm going to guess it'll be $549 at release with the DA 18-55 f3.5-5.6 and the 50-200 f/4-5.6. Remember that this is a stripped down version of the K200D (though it doesn't exactly look like it on paper), and those two lenses in the package will be the new ones. My guess is that if they've brought plastic to the lens mount to save money, they've probably tried to save money elsewhere too. (I really think this camera is going to go straight for the throat of the Canon Rebel and Nikon D40/60, even to the point of stooping to their level of quality in the kit lenses). Has anyone ever seen the Canon EF 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 III (without USM)? It's a nightmare, and I'll bet the build quality of the new plastic mount lenses from Pentax won't be far off, you can get one of those Canon lenses for something like $150 right now.

SLC

[Phrasikleia]

I really think this camera is going to go straight for the throat of the Canon Rebel and Nikon D40/60, even to the point of stooping to their level of quality in the kit lenses

I hope that's not the case, but the plastic bayonet doesn't bode well. Pentax lenses are so uniformly excellent, it would be a real pity for them to sully the line like that. Now if these new lenses turn out to be optically great and merely of cheaper build quality (à la Canon's Nifty Fifty), then that's not such a bad thing.

[SLC Flyfishing]

I hope that's not the case, but the plastic bayonet doesn't bode well. Pentax lenses are so uniformly excellent, it would be a real pity for them to sully the line like that. Now if these new lenses turn out to be optically great and merely of cheaper build quality (à la Canon's Nifty Fifty), then that's not such a bad thing.

I can't see them degrading the optics since they've already had these two lenses in production for a number of years, it would cost money for them to redesign the optics. The existing 18-55 and 50-200 are optically good (the 18-55 got the highest kit lens score from DPreview). I think it would make more sense for them to simply degrade the materials that the lens bodies are made from to save some cash, but keep the existing glass in them. These lenses are both very inexpensive as is (before the downgrade), they will be a steal in their new form. Keep in mind that they will still continue to make the 18-55 and 50-200 with a metal mount and the traditional better than average construction as well, there will simply be two versions of each lens.

Also, the K-M will have SDM support for pro grade lenses as well, I think Pentax is going this way from now on with all bodies.

SLC

[theblueone]

Any idea when the official announcement will be? I've seen stuff at a few websites (here, dpreview and pentaxforums) about the K-m, but no real clue on when it'll be official.

[Phrasikleia]

There has been an official announcement from Pentax, but it came as a brief press release and only in German. Photokina starts next week, so we can expect a real set of specs and maybe even US pricing to be out by the end of the month.

[Buschmaster]

It's not on Amazon yet... but look here:
http://www.amazon.com/Pentax-10-2MP-Digital-Camera-Reduction/dp/tech-data/B0012QAXNA/ref=de_a_smtd

The K200D is ~$550. So if it is a lower end model... $450? $500 at most?

I didn't know the K200D could be had this cheap already! I might have to snag one here pretty soon!

[Buschmaster]

Few more thoughts...

Looks like the K-m will have a metal mount from everything I'm hearing. It's only the cheaper kit lenses that will now have plastic mounts to save money and weight.

It's my impression that the K-m is the low end model so it should be around $500 if not cheaper if it's offered as body only. I'm talking street prices, by the way.

Also, there's supposed to be some pretty neat features that are unique to this camera.

[Phrasikleia]

Few more thoughts...

Looks like the K-m will have a metal mount from everything I'm hearing. It's only the cheaper kit lenses that will now have plastic mounts to save money and weight.

It's my impression that the K-m is the low end model so it should be around $500 if not cheaper if it's offered as body only. I'm talking street prices, by the way.

Also, there's supposed to be some pretty neat features that are unique to this camera.

Yeah, as kwajo.com posted earlier (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=6267778&postcount=10) in this thread, the camera itself will have a metal mount.

What unique features is it supposed to have?

[Buschmaster]

Yeah, as kwajo.com posted earlier (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=6267778&postcount=10) in this thread, the camera itself will have a metal mount.

What unique features is it supposed to have?
The rumors are just something with autofocus. Also, this appears to be the fastest FPS pentax thus far. Makes you wonder what they're going to do for their higher end cameras. Go up even higher?

[Phrasikleia]

The rumors are just something with autofocus. Also, this appears to be the fastest FPS pentax thus far. Makes you wonder what they're going to do for their higher end cameras. Go up even higher?

Well, introducing a FF camera would be a good start.

[Buschmaster]

Well, introducing a FF camera would be a good start.
Part of the problem is that they faded a lot with the digital camera. They used to be just as big as the others but now they're not.

So they need to try and get more money from young users. If they can get them onboard by having the best value starter camera they'll create a bigger need for FF cameras. Who knows, they might get a FF camera out there during photokina yet. They also have the 645D in the wings which would be quite the beast of a camera.

[Phrasikleia]

Part of the problem is that they faded a lot with the digital camera. They used to be just as big as the others but now they're not.

So they need to try and get more money from young users. If they can get them onboard by having the best value starter camera they'll create a bigger need for FF cameras.

I'm sure that's precisely why the K-m is coming out. They need to build their user base back up, and the entry level is the key starting point.

This is on Wikipedia: "The K1000's extraordinary longevity makes it a historically significant camera, despite its very ordinary design. Although the K1000 was already obsolete when it was first released, its inexpensive simplicity was a great virtue and earned it an unrivaled popularity as a basic but sturdy workhorse, particularly suited to educating inexperienced photographers. The Pentax K1000 eventually sold over three million units."

Pentax is of course hoping the K-m can be a replay of that success.

[Buschmaster]

I'm sure that's precisely why the K-m is coming out. They need to build their user base back up, and the entry level is the key starting point.

This is on Wikipedia: "The K1000's extraordinary longevity makes it a historically significant camera, despite its very ordinary design. Although the K1000 was already obsolete when it was first released, its inexpensive simplicity was a great virtue and earned it an unrivaled popularity as a basic but sturdy workhorse, particularly suited to educating inexperienced photographers. The Pentax K1000 eventually sold over three million units."

Pentax is of course hoping the K-m can be a replay of that success.
That'd be great if that were the case. Hopefully it can take P&S users and turn them into SLR photographers

[theblueone]

Wha-huh?
Yvon Bourque(http://pentaxdslrs.blogspot.com/) shows (as of 00:33 AZ time) this camera as the K2000. The press release he has also says that that the new lenses "offer the same optical design, construction and compatibility as the current smc PENTAX DA 18-55mm II and smc PENTAX DA 50-200mm lenses." Does this mean the bayonets are not plastic?I'm excited, in a way. It's great that Pentax is making this leap downmarket, where a lot of the R&D money comes from. However, I'm a little dismayed that this camera is, in a lot of ways, equal to how I use my K10D, in a smaller and (likely) much cheaper package.

Edit. Dpreview.com shows it as the K-m. Apparently, after I re-read the article, Bourque said that the K2000 is available outside the U.S. as K-m. The K2000 will be available in November with the DA L 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AL lens and PENTAX AF200FG flash for $699. USD. It appears that the K2000 kit with the 18-55 and the 50-200 will be available beginning in early 2009.
Further edit: Whether or not Bourque meant that the bayonets were, as I interpreted them, metal, dpreview has said that they'll be plastic. Darn me and my excited reading.

[Abstract]

The downside of Pentax isn't price. The K200D is good enough. A smaller size won't help them either.

The problem with Pentax is that they're not taken seriously as a photography company. They have no "great" pro cameras, and seem to be aiming squarely at the low end. Nobody wants to invest in a loser. Make and publicize some good, massive zooms with their super-sonic motor, and make it fit full frame cameras. Then make a full frame camera to go with it. ;)

According to marketers, the past 10 years has been characterized by a lack of brand loyalty, which is very unlike the 10 years prior to that. The camera market is no different. People who haven't heard of Pentax look at the product lineup and think it's a joke (having more models on the shelf simply looks better), while people who are thinking ahead don't see any new lenses that they may want.

I liked the K10D, but you always want to feel that the DSLR brand you're with creates products that are well beyond your potential -- something that better photographers spend loads of money on. If the rather low-priced K20D owners look up and don't see a better camera, they're simply not going to be swept away. Even Sony can enter the DSLR market and do well while companies like Samsung cannot, despite having higher brand value than Sony (and pretty much every other consumer electronics company). Why? Because regardless of how much people like and instantly recognize a Samsung product, they're not going to buy a Samsung-branded DSLR if it's a piece of ****, or if it's the only thing on offer.


And sorry, but this is coming from someone who recommends Pentax cameras if someone asks me what to buy.

[SLC Flyfishing]

The downside of Pentax isn't price. The K200D is good enough. A smaller size won't help them either.

The problem with Pentax is that they're not taken seriously as a photography company. They have no "great" pro cameras, and seem to be aiming squarely at the low end.

I fear that you are partially right. However, I'm still glad to see them being realistic. Sony has the cash on hand to do pretty much anything they want. Olympus has a lot of things going besides just cameras so they have some financial basis to create an upscale camera. But Pentax is the only brand that hasn't got that ability just yet. I think that if they were to create a nice FF camera right now they'd bleed themselves dry doing it, and then the Canon and Nikon fanboys would poo-poo it into the ground and they'd likely go bankrupt as a result.

They're realistic about what they can support right now, and if this K-M catches on even a fourth of the way the K1000 did in the past, they will move rapidly forward on that cash inflow.

And I learned something interesting, apparently Samsung is likely going to go solo with DSLR production. They'll still use the K mount for lenses, but rumor is that they will no longer be re-badging Pentax DSLR's. That's certainly not going to help as much as it could.

SLC

[Col127]

wow, that sounds amazing :) can't wait to see the specs on that. in-body VR and weather sealing is amazing

Looks like Pentax is taking a page out of Canon and Nikon's playbook and giving us a super low end enty level camera ala Rebel XS or D40.

It's called the Pentax K-M (M signifying 1000 in roman numerals, a throwback to the hugely popular K1000 of yester-year) it's supposed to have the image sensor and processing engine of the K200D, weather sealing, a 96% coverage pentamirror viewfinder, shake reduction, and is the smallest DSLR with in-body shake reduction available anywhere. The worst part is that the real Canon copying move is that it will have a flouro-plastic lens coupling, and Pentax will begin to release some entry level lenses with flouro-plastic lens mounts. This is all to save weight and cost I'm sure, and with all the features as long as newbies don't get hung up on the Canon or Nikon stigma I don't see this camera being beat in it's price segment.

While I'm personally not interested in this camera, I think it's probably a smart move, no doubt it's all the plastic fantastic rebel's that make cameras like the 1D series from Canon possible.

SLC

[Buschmaster]

Apparently it's going to be the Pentax K2000 everywhere but Europe. But will be the K-m in Europe.


I'm guessing Samsung won't go out on their own, if anything else they'd throw money at Pentax or help them develop things. Why would they custom make sensors for the K20D if they didn't want to work with Pentax? I feel like they're probably pretty committed.

[Phrasikleia]

Apparently it's going to be the Pentax K2000 everywhere but Europe. But will be the K-m in Europe.

OK, so K-MM in Roman numerals, or "K-Mmmm Mmmm" for those who were waiting for Pentax to release this! :)

[Buschmaster]

OK, so K-MM in Roman numerals, or "K-Mmmm Mmmm" for those who were waiting for Pentax to release this! :)
Why not, right? ;)

[MaddMacs]

Well, on Monday I ordered the k200d, the price, just over $500 body only, a day later the price jumped to $550, maybe as a result of the reveal of the K2000, which according to Dpreview offers little improvement to the k200d: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/pentaxkm/
I personally would choose better weather sealing, than a higher ISO, and am glad I jumped when I did. :)

[ChrisA]

Hm, hope I'm not looking at my D40 in a month or two asking myself why I paid so much for it...

You mean you would have selected Pentax over Nikon had Pentax's entry level SLR body been $100 cheaper than Nikon's. Saving $100 is a short sighted way to select a brand because you will be committed to that brand for a long time as you buy lenses flash units and upgrade/replace the SLR body several times over the years.

But yes I know. many people do select a brand based solely on the price of the entry level camera body. Nikon and Canon should sell the bodies at zero mark up just to snag new customers

[gnd]

You mean you would have selected Pentax over Nikon had Pentax's entry level SLR body been $100 cheaper than Nikon's. Saving $100 is a short sighted way to select a brand because you will be committed to that brand for a long time as you buy lenses flash units and upgrade/replace the SLR body several times over the years.

But yes I know. many people do select a brand based solely on the price of the entry level camera body. Nikon and Canon should sell the bodies at zero mark up just to snag new customers

Also, a lot of people just buy the DSLR with the one or two kit lenses and don't ever buy any other lenses. This goes especially for the entry level cameras.

[SLC Flyfishing]

You mean you would have selected Pentax over Nikon had Pentax's entry level SLR body been $100 cheaper than Nikon's. Saving $100 is a short sighted way to select a brand because you will be committed to that brand for a long time as you buy lenses flash units and upgrade/replace the SLR body several times over the years.

But yes I know. many people do select a brand based solely on the price of the entry level camera body. Nikon and Canon should sell the bodies at zero mark up just to snag new customers

I bought into Pentax because of the system. You can't get anything like those FA limited prime lenses from Canon or Nikon. Not everyone who takes their photography needs to have a Canon or a Nikon, but every time you post this response you seem to imply that.

And I need to ask why you feel that once you pick a brand for your first DSLR you will remain committed to that brand forever? I have plans to add a D700 to my arsenal soon, but I can't stick my favorite lenses on it so I'll be keeping the Pentax gear when I do. I'll maintain two systems, and each will have it's strong points and it's weak points.

I have a buddy that shoots Pentax for his all around camera, has a Nikon that's IR converted, and a Canon solely for shooting through that MPE-65 1-5x macro that only Canon makes.

He doesn't seem to have a problem supporting 3 systems and he's no wealthy man.

SLC

[Buschmaster]

Not everyone who takes their photography needs to have a Canon or a Nikon, but every time you post this response you seem to imply that.
Isn't that how it is?;)

I bought into the Pentax system because of the lenses as well. I got a 50mm quick little lens for $30. Simply because its old, but still works just the same!

[TheReef]

Looks like there will be a "beginners" kit including Flash.
Not sure about pricing for the kit.
From http://www.pentaxslr.com/bodies/k2000

[Phrasikleia]

Looks like there will be a "beginners" kit including Flash.
Not sure about pricing for the kit.
From http://www.pentaxslr.com/bodies/k2000

Nice! :)

I'm just now noticing that the camera has no pop-up flash. Or am I just not seeing it?

[job]

Well, introducing a FF camera would be a good start.

I was at Photokina and there was talk from several high-ups in the Pentax Corp. about NOT producing a FF camera and instead going forward with the 645D project (medium format) instead. It wasn't an official announcement per say, but it definitely had some legitimacy behind it. And it makes sense too - Pentax has a legacy line of medium format lenses that could easily be used for a digital medium format. Additionally, the replacement for the K200D and the K20D are expected to be announced spring of 2009 - both with new sensors that may or may not be from Samsung - and are expected to remain APS-C. Pentax thinks it can hit FF image quality with APS-C and undercut the until now extremely expensive digital medium format market with the 645D. Can you imagine a $3000 MF Pentax?

See here for more info: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1036&thread=29487291

Nice! :)

I'm just now noticing that the camera has no pop-up flash. Or am I just not seeing it?

It's got one. You posted the picture on page 1 of this thread that showed it! :p :)

FWIW I think the K-M will do quite well - especially with those who are just moving up from P&S. The only thing that I can really see hurting it is the lack of Liveview.

[Phrasikleia]

It's got one. You posted the picture on page 1 of this thread that showed it! :p :)

Doh! Uh...I was just testing you...really. ;) :D

[marclapierre13]

Interesting, vvvvvery interesting.
My questions are this, what are all the differences between the K-M, and K200D. I am wondering how much smaller it will be. Without the metail coupling, it will need quite a bit more to make up for that loss. I think a kit flash would be a neat idea as well. I think the camera sounds like it has some good potential, if priced right, and doesnt lose tons of features from the k200d.
I gotta say I love the name as well, K-M :D

[TheReef]

I was at Photokina and there was talk from several high-ups in the Pentax Corp. about NOT producing a FF camera and instead going forward with the 645D project (medium format) instead. It wasn't an official announcement per say, but it definitely had some legitimacy behind it. And it makes sense too - Pentax has a legacy line of medium format lenses that could easily be used for a digital medium format. Additionally, the replacement for the K200D and the K20D are expected to be announced spring of 2009 - both with new sensors that may or may not be from Samsung - and are expected to remain APS-C. Pentax thinks it can hit FF image quality with APS-C and undercut the until now extremely expensive digital medium format market with the 645D. Can you imagine a $3000 MF Pentax?

See here for more info: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1036&thread=29487291

Thanks for the info! Sure sounds like some exciting new stuff is coming out of from Pentax. Now all I need is some spare cash for that new newly released DA* 55mm f1.4 :o

Hopefully the K2000 will improve Pentax's image, you'd be hard pressed to find any Pentax dSLR in an electronics stores down here.