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cleo
May 29, 2002, 09:17 AM
OK, so I'm designing a web site for this guy that works with my dad, and he wants to know about "cost parameters." He sent me a list of sites that are for people doing approximately what he does, but wasn't terribly specific about what he actually wants, thus far. At any rate, how (hourly? flat rate?) and how much would you to charge to develop something like <http://www.obcci.com/> (which is about in the midrange of the ones he sent me)? (Of course, I wouldn't pay *anyone* to make something that ugly, but you get the idea). The only sites I've developed have been for departments at school, and they pay me crappy minimum wage, so I'm kind of clueless.

Ensign Paris
May 29, 2002, 09:22 AM
I would charge half of my listed prices at:

http://www.brooklineuk.com/services.html

Ensign

Mr. Anderson
May 29, 2002, 09:29 AM
Well, if he can't give you specifics, you might want to charge by the hour, that way you don't get locked into a price and end up getting screwed because he can't make up his mind about what he likes or wants. Find out what the hourly rate for a web designer is in your neck of the woods and factor in you're a student and come up with a reasonable rate.

jelloshotsrule
May 29, 2002, 09:45 AM
i too would recommend charging by the hour (though it's tough to "prove" how many hours you worked... but that's how it works in this biz)...

i agreed to do a "simple" animation for a producer last winter. i figured it'd be like 2 weeks work or something. we agreed to 500 bucks.... not great, but i realized i was a student and needed to get whatever work i could.

well, i did the animation. and many many revisions, self recorded audio, scanning many documents, etc later.... i realized 500 was too little, even for a student...

so do it hourly. or get many more specifics... or make it clear that "you are asking for this, you pay this- if you add more you pay more..."

as for what to charge... i got no clue!

eyelikeart
May 29, 2002, 09:48 AM
I would recomend an hourly rate...

If u know exactly what to do and won't be having a lot of time where u are trying to figure out how to do it...it's probably your best bet...

I don't do websites, but when I freelance...I'll charge depending upon what the job is. Sometimes I charge a flat rate if I know it'll only take me 2 hours or so of work...and others I charge by the hour knowing it'll take me several hours of work. I've found the flat rate works best in most cases, but hourly can make it much more worth your while... ;)

iGav
May 29, 2002, 10:16 AM
I normally go on an hourly rate, but it does depend on the client......

My hourly rate is high, so for some work it becomes unfeasible to charge on an hourly rate as the overall site cost will just spiral....... and the client WILL go to someone else........

For the site that you supplied the URL to.... I imagine it took less than a day to design and build so you aren't looking at the biggest of pay days if you did it on an hourly rate..... and in my opinion would probably get more money for flat rate......

Discuss the site with the client, and discuss needs etc. then you'll be able to come up with a better solution both interms of the budget and the work involved.......

Mr. Anderson
May 29, 2002, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by iGAV
For the site that you supplied the URL to.... I imagine it took less than a day to design and build so you aren't looking at the biggest of pay days if you did it on an hourly rate..... and in my opinion would probably get more money for flat rate......

Discuss the site with the client, and discuss needs etc. then you'll be able to come up with a better solution both interms of the budget and the work involved.......

A flat rate is good if you know what the job will be, from what she's said he has an idea, but no specifics. I've had to deal with this before and if you don't go to a hourly rate you're just asking for trouble, cause if he's not sure now, you'll be lucky to get out of it with just a few changes. And he'll settle on a design and idea if he realizes its going cost more every time he changes his mind.

cleo
May 29, 2002, 10:53 AM
Thanks for all the input. I emailed the guy back and told him that we need to get together to discuss specifics, and also asked him some specific questions (how many pages, does he already have a logo, etc). Hopefully I'll be able to pin him down a bit to get a better handle on what I'm getting myself into. I also think I'm going to ask for an hourly rate (probably $9/hr) unless he offers me a flat rate I can't refuse. Anyway, thanks again for all the input... I'll probably be asking more questions as this plays out. :)

Mr. Anderson
May 29, 2002, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by cleo
I also think I'm going to ask for an hourly rate (probably $9/hr) unless he offers me a flat rate I can't refuse.

That might be a little low, do you have any other work out there? That always helps. But it might be good to make a deal with him this time and start to build a portfolio so you can get more money in long run. Besides, it is word of mouth that got you the job, right? It might do you well to consider this an investment that will pay you back in more clients....

iGav
May 29, 2002, 11:01 AM
Cleo, the other way to approach it maybe, is that when you're discussing it with him, ask what his total budget is for the site and what he expects for that budget, then you can calculate how long it'll take you etc. to produce the site........ and the determining factors like what you said, does he have existing content, does he require media etc etc.... and can inform him as to whether his brief can be match his budget.......

Mr. Anderson
May 29, 2002, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by iGAV
and the determining factors like what you said, does he have existing content, does he require media etc etc.... and can inform him as to whether his brief can be match his budget.......

Good points, if you keep doing freelance, you're going to need to learn how to manage your clients, it can be a pain sometimes, but its always best to be up front with them.

cleo
May 29, 2002, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet


That might be a little low, do you have any other work out there? That always helps. But it might be good to make a deal with him this time and start to build a portfolio so you can get more money in long run. Besides, it is word of mouth that got you the job, right? It might do you well to consider this an investment that will pay you back in more clients....

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. The thing is, the sites I've done are either on the (password-protected) intranet of my school, or are awful (aesthetically, not technically, and due to the requests of the clients, not my skills - it's amazing how much people like ugly stuff). So it would be nice to do this, probably rather quickly, and have something good to point other people to. There are a couple of other subcontractors of my father's who have expressed interest in having websites, so if I do this one well I might have some more opportunities to do some more for a bit more money, we'll see.

Also, this guy has known me since I was 4, so I don't want to push my luck - he might just laugh at me. :D

jefhatfield
May 29, 2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
Well, if he can't give you specifics, you might want to charge by the hour, that way you don't get locked into a price and end up getting screwed because he can't make up his mind about what he likes or wants. Find out what the hourly rate for a web designer is in your neck of the woods and factor in you're a student and come up with a reasonable rate.

billable hours baby!

imagine a doctor who billed by the job and patient satisfaction and the patient was a hypo who never was satisfied

agreenster
May 29, 2002, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by cleo
(probably $9/hr)

YIKES!! Are you kidding? Thats very low. Unless you live in po-dunk ville and your cost of living is astronmically low.

Plus, the 'higher' the design, the higher you should charge. For a site that you showed us, I wouldnt charge a whole lot. But for a site like www.2advanced.com or a more fancy site, you could charge 20+ and hour.

Try to estimate how long it will take to design each element, page, workflow, etc. Present it to him/her in a clear manner and explain how long it takes, and why it costs this amount. They key to not getting raped is to keep your hour/payment system organzed, and always charge for every hour you work.

Try to stick to your estimate, but make sure you have an up-front policy on last-minute client changes or updates after the site is launched.

iGav
May 29, 2002, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by cleo
(aesthetically, not technically, and due to the requests of the clients, not my skills - it's amazing how much people like ugly stuff).

Heh heh... it's your job as a designer to educate those with bad taste...... :D

I'd go for more than $9 an hour.... that sounds really, really low, just because you're new to the game, doesn't mean you need to charge so little..... this is where portfolios come in......... so you can demonstrate exactly what your skills and experience are....

cleo
May 29, 2002, 11:30 AM
See, this is what happens when you do work-study for too long... you begin to think that $7/hr is good pay. :D

jefhatfield
May 29, 2002, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by agreenster


YIKES!! Are you kidding? Thats very low. Unless you live in po-dunk ville and your cost of living is astronmically low.


i live in monterey county, just south of silicon valley and those five counties and even though i am close to all the silicon action, the pay is very low

the same goes for some outlying areas near san francisco even though the city itself pays well

good techies (many with degrees and/or certs) make over 100 an hour in san jose, but the outlying area techies charge a half or third of that because that is what the market will bear

the highest paid graphics people in usa are in nyc and los angeles...charge what you can but do not surpass those rates for what you do

with techies, one can almost charge anything one wants but there is a ceiling somewhere but this field is new so some take advantage of it

one techie put in two pcs with cash registers attached on them, probided the software and setup, and his 40 hours of setup plus gear came out to 10,000 dollars...to me that sounded kind of high

but very few techies know computers, proprietary commerce software, and POS stuff so he was able to make over 200 an hour for his efforts...not bad for a week's work

jelloshotsrule
May 29, 2002, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by agreenster
Try to stick to your estimate, but make sure you have an up-front policy on last-minute client changes or updates after the site is launched.

that's what kicked me in the arse. the experience was still worth the low pay in my case... but you have to let them know that you are agreeing to said price for said work. and anything after that, even if they didn't really foresee it, is more... after a certain point at least...

i'd think you easily (and very fairly) ask for say 12/hour... or more. but the key is the budget and what it's used for.

if he/she's gonna make money off the site, then it's more valuable to them and thus so is your work... the thing i made was attached to every reel the producer sent out and so i could've easily gotten more..... that said, you know the guy, so just talk to him...

Mr. Anderson
May 29, 2002, 11:40 AM
But one thing more, don't let friendship get in the way of business, it won't be good. I've had to deal with that and regret it to this day.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

jefhatfield
May 29, 2002, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
But one thing more, don't let friendship get in the way of business, it won't be good. I've had to deal with that and regret it to this day.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

words of wisdom...try to keep the two separate and if you do work for friends, then don't expect to make a lot of money that way...there are plenty of regular customers that you can build a reputation on

i also don't have techie friends because when i relax, i don't want to see a computer with computer issues or even talk about it...does a network techie want to sit there and talk about punchdown tools and half duplex when hanging out...not unless you have a sick mind...

:p

teabgs
May 29, 2002, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by cleo
See, this is what happens when you do work-study for too long... you begin to think that $7/hr is good pay. :D

ah man.....I hear that! next year I'll get a raise to 7/hr :( boy do low paying school jobs suck.....well, the job doesnt, just the pay...

Good experience though....landed me two (unpaid) internships this summer...

Mr. Anderson
May 29, 2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by teabgs
ah man.....I hear that! next year I'll get a raise to 7/hr :( boy do low paying school jobs suck.....well, the job doesnt, just the pay...

Good experience though....landed me two (unpaid) internships this summer...

but thats how it goes, you pay your dues and someday you'll be able to offer those internships to the slave labor force.....

mymemory
May 29, 2002, 12:56 PM
I would charge from $500 to $800 for that site. I would make it in a week (actually in a day or two).

The client have to give me the entire material before I start doing anything (logos, pictures, text).

I always ask for a catalog or something. The hell of doing a site is that the client have to give you all the information, usually they do a bussiness but they do not have everything in a papera yet, so, it may take them about a week to really find out what their bussiness is about.

If you have to create some logo, find them a good graphic designer.

The web designer works as a paper, "you are gonna place what you client gives you", start from there.

Calculate the ammount for a production and then for a week of fixes.

Remember that the hosting and domain are not include in the payment, neither the registration of the web site in the search engines.

teabgs
May 29, 2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet


but thats how it goes, you pay your dues and someday you'll be able to offer those internships to the slave labor force.....


mmmmm......slave labor force.....

Mr. Anderson
May 29, 2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by teabgs



mmmmm......slave labor force.....

that's a nice fantasy, huh? Think of all the work you might be able to do if you had a few eager souls at your disposal....

I think unpaid internships aren't very fair, you should be able to get some value out of it other than connections and experience - aid you in the short term instead of just the long term.

jelloshotsrule
May 29, 2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
that's a nice fantasy, huh? Think of all the work you might be able to do if you had a few eager souls at your disposal....

I think unpaid internships aren't very fair, you should be able to get some value out of it other than connections and experience - aid you in the short term instead of just the long term.

yeah, i hit the jackpot by getting 100/week no matter how much i worked... in the summer it was about 30-40, then during school it was like 15!...

plus. 6 credits...

plus the experience/connections...

i scored big.

but, didn't add to my portfolio too much, though i did do that animation for the producer.. word.

teabgs
May 29, 2002, 09:49 PM
the thing I hate is that I always am forced to say "one day" this and that. but I have to be poor and tired until that day.

When is "that day" going to be here? It's up in the air and not as dependant on my talent but sometimes on connections and timing.

jelloshotsrule
May 29, 2002, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by teabgs
the thing I hate is that I always am forced to say "one day" this and that. but I have to be poor and tired until that day.

When is "that day" going to be here? It's up in the air and not as dependant on my talent but sometimes on connections and timing.

nah.... not "sometimes" on connections and timing.... but "usually"...

with art, talent is not always so obvious.... that's the price you/we pay... heck, i don't even know if i'm "talented"....

Mr. Anderson
May 29, 2002, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
nah.... not "sometimes" on connections and timing.... but "usually"...

with art, talent is not always so obvious.... that's the price you/we pay... heck, i don't even know if i'm "talented"....

Its a pretty tricky little game, no matter how you look at it. I took the techie road, found out I really enjoyed the art better and changed heading I'd say 5 years or so ago. I would have liked to have done things differently, but its all 20/20 hindsight.

Pay your dues now, it will be worth it. The internet and media aspect associated with it will be huge in the future, no question about it. Imagine trying to tell someone 10 years ago you'd be able to download movies from the internet....

Just think what another ten years will do:cool:

teabgs
May 29, 2002, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet


Its a pretty tricky little game, no matter how you look at it. I took the techie road, found out I really enjoyed the art better and changed heading I'd say 5 years or so ago. I would have liked to have done things differently, but its all 20/20 hindsight.

Pay your dues now, it will be worth it. The internet and media aspect associated with it will be huge in the future, no question about it. Imagine trying to tell someone 10 years ago you'd be able to download movies from the internet....

Just think what another ten years will do:cool:

Such great words os wisdom. You are right...Though it doesnt make it any easier for me now. I do like the path I'm on though. Which is whats important.

I decided a few years ago that being happy with my work is whats most important to me. As long as I can pay the bills and eat if I like my work then thats all I need.

Thanks for your sagely advice Duke.


ALL HAIL DUKE.....ALL HAIL DUKE.....:rolleyes:

Mr. Anderson
May 29, 2002, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by teabgs
I decided a few years ago that being happy with my work is whats most important to me.

That is the most important thing by far. I've met so many people, friends, coworkers and strangers who are always looking for something better and have no real idea what would make them happy at work.

I love doing what I do, if I won 100 million in lotto tomorrow, I'd still be doing it. Just keep the faith you have in your path and you'll find it will take care of itself....

teabgs
May 29, 2002, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet

Just keep the faith you have in your path and you'll find it will take care of itself....

my path full of deadend sidetracks for the sake of the $$$. ;)

It'd be much easier to stay on my path without having to repay Uncle Sam so much money....to think that they money i'll owe in 2 years could buy me a house.....

jelloshotsrule
May 29, 2002, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by teabgs


my path full of deadend sidetracks for the sake of the $$$. ;)

It'd be much easier to stay on my path without having to repay Uncle Sam so much money....to think that they money i'll owe in 2 years could buy me a house.....

dang, you must be making a boatload of money then.... 2 years of taxes enough to buy a house????/ hot damn! send some my way.

ps. our taxes are nothing compared to elsewhere...

teabgs
May 29, 2002, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


dang, you must be making a boatload of money then.... 2 years of taxes enough to buy a house????/ hot damn! send some my way.

ps. our taxes are nothing compared to elsewhere...

hehe...silly Jello...:p

I was referring to my student loans...not taxes.

Damn, I wish I was paying taxes that high! ;)

Why do you think when I "go out to eat" I goto Mercato to get the $3 deal?

my a$$ is ever falling into debt by goin to school

jelloshotsrule
May 29, 2002, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by teabgs
hehe...silly Jello...:p

I was referring to my student loans...not taxes.

Damn, I wish I was paying taxes that high! ;)

Why do you think when I "go out to eat" I goto Mercato to get the $3 deal?

my a$$ is ever falling into debt by goin to school

ahhhhhhh!!!! it must be the booze....

now it's coming together... now.... it is...

word up.

iGav
May 30, 2002, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
I love doing what I do, if I won 100 million in lotto tomorrow, I'd still be doing it. Just keep the faith you have in your path and you'll find it will take care of itself....

I absolutely agree with you duke......... I can't imagine not being creative, or not working with creative people........ some of the people I know do JOBS..... you know the kind, the 9 to 5 thing, and they're happy with their lot...... come home and switch off....... me...... if I'm not doing commercial work, then I'm doing my own stuff..... and if I can't do neither at a particular time... then I wish I was doing it...... my (non-creative) friends just don't understand how at weekends I work.... maybe on commercial projects, or maybe devloping my own stuff, always creating.... tweaking, developing and learning....... but most of all enjoying it...... :)

I consider myself so lucky that I work in an area where it simply doesn't feel like a job....... that it isn't just 9 to 5...... and that I work with some of the most fantastic people in the world.........

If I won the lotto tomorrow....... I still be doing what I do now... it'd just be on the latest hardware....... that's all:D

kishba
May 30, 2002, 07:58 AM
before i started reading this thread i was content (and by that i mean i accepted it) with my minimum wage tech job where i do some web design

but this is just adding to my feeling of frustration... the only freelance job i have is screwing me over and my parents won't let me get a different summer job... any suggestions for finding some (any) freelance web work?

i would kill for a job that paid anything more than minimum wage...

iGav
May 30, 2002, 08:08 AM
What's the minimum wage in the US??

kishba
May 30, 2002, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by iGAV
What's the minimum wage in the US??


$5.15.... but i admit i get $5.25

Mr. Anderson
May 30, 2002, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by kishba
before i started reading this thread i was content (and by that i mean i accepted it) with my minimum wage tech job where i do some web design

but this is just adding to my feeling of frustration... the only freelance job i have is screwing me over and my parents won't let me get a different summer job... any suggestions for finding some (any) freelance web work?


That might be a tough one, I'm assuming your high school or maybe college, and it gets back to the 'slave labor' issue of interns (see above). If you can find someone who's going to pay you to do a website, you're going to need a portfolio, period. And you're going to have to sell yourself to get the work. As student you would be cheaper than professional firms, so you have that as an advantage.

But why don't you tell us what you do now, what're your skills, etc. and what resources do you have to do freelance.

Grokgod
May 30, 2002, 11:12 AM
I have a few words to contribute on this subject.

Dont undervalue yourself. Standard pay rate for a professional web designer is about 45 $ an hour. You must value yourself or the client will not!

Start with a flat rate of $1500. with an hourly rate for changes or monthly updates.

If the site he wants is ugly then he doesnt understand what isnt or what he wants. You must educate him and that is part of what he is paying for! If he wants it done badly then he can go elsewhere cant he? There are plenty of people that will be willing to charge him too much and do a bad job of it.
You are doing him a service by educating his perceptions.
that takes time and time equals money, or so they say.

logos and original art work are additional costs.

Break the work up into parts or sessions.
consultation.
mockups, which lead to approval by client.
final pages
setting it all up on the web

Break down the costs and make certain he is aware of the progress and take half the payment up front! Always half up front, if they cant pay that then they are not serious or have no intention of ever paying you.

If he is a friend and you think that your doing him a favor then reduce the above proces by the ratio of friendship that you feel for him.

Costs divided by friendship equals final price.

Fight for the better design of the site because its a site that you want to be able to show to others at some point with pride.

cleo
May 30, 2002, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Grokgod
Dont undervalue yourself. Standard pay rate for a professional web designer is about 45 $ an hour. You must value yourself or the client will not!

Start with a flat rate of $1500. with an hourly rate for changes or monthly updates.


Holy crap. I was thinking I'd be lucky to get $250. Isn't $1500 a bit high for 10 pages with some simple image maps?!?

(Still waiting to hear, by the way, on the specifics of what this client wants.)

iGav
May 30, 2002, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by cleo


Holy crap. I was thinking I'd be lucky to get $250. Isn't $1500 a bit high for 10 pages with some simple image maps?!?

(Still waiting to hear, by the way, on the specifics of what this client wants.)

I'd say it's alot....... :p a site like the one you gave as an example..... looks like a $200 job........

That said..... if he'd agree to $1500 for something similar...... don't argue!!!

Take the money and run......... :p

Grokgod
May 30, 2002, 05:01 PM
Holy too much work, cleo!

Did you say 10 feakin pages, wow

Better double the price!

It isnt that much at all really.
If you take into consideration that it is a specialized field and that it involves
design and art work. That isnt very much at all.

This company site that you posted was done very badly for a company that states they produce the best in 3d graphic etc!

If the company wants to make money then their web presence must reflect their abilities in the design and computer field!

If they want to look bad and make nothing, then they can continue with what they have or get someone that is not willing to accept the responsibilty of creating a proper site that will generate work for them.

1500, is nothing! I assure you. For 10 pages done well with a design template and fresh images it should actually cost 3,000.00 MIN!

Then the additionals in monthly updates etc.

You have to ask yourself, is it worth it to work to create 10 great pages for a measly price and be abused and used by a client, while you lower the value of what all artists generate doing freelance work.

If he is a friend then $1000 is good i think, quite low~!

Make it a great job and all will go well.

Mr. Anderson
May 30, 2002, 05:48 PM
Cleo, what Grokgod is saying could be ok, if this wasn't your first website. It is your first paying site, right? So don't worry so much about the money, don't ask too much and see how it goes. Figure you're going to have to resolve issues and stay with an hourly rate. Once you get a decent freelance business going, then you can go for the big bucks. Don't price yourself out of a job.

kishba
May 30, 2002, 05:56 PM
$3000 min eh?

well i'm current working on a site for an orchard for $100

Features:

1) Free hosting by me
2) Very clean design
3) However much labor required by me for that price
4) PHP dynamically created page (for simple header includes for simple modification)
5) MYSQL database and administration pages (with input error detection and simple interface)
6) I'm taking some of the pictures for them and scanned their logo & such

check it out so far (front page is waiting for their approval and their photo of the orchard they want on the front page) http://orchard.kishba.com

of note this isn't my first web site i've created... besides http://www.kishba.com I've created:

http://www.mindnet.org (early, early design... forgive its hideous look)

http://merps.k12.mi.us/ (it also has a cool admin center - by the way i don't go to school here, but get minimum wage as a technician)

http://focus.mhs.mps.k12.mi.us (my high school paper's web site... i'm the webmaster forced to convert the monthly paper to html... no fancy coding behind it)

http://bpa2002.merps.k12.mi.us (site i worked on in a team of four and it took 1st in the nation for a Business Professionals of America web design contest... it also took 1st @ regionals & states... it's way cool with nifty user prefs & a tracking system for monitoring where visitors go... I created all the videos on the site and its database... it includes a store, resource center, flash game, etc -- definitely check it out... ok design, awesome programming)

anyways... i can't any freelance jobs for some reason and i'm being forced to work @ my father's school district during the summer for crappy minimum wage... freelancing is the only way i'll be able to afford a car & college (and any mac equipment)

any suggestions?? thanks for all your help... i'm really shocked at the prices you all charge...

cleo
May 30, 2002, 06:57 PM
Damn, I feel mediocre now. :D Just kidding - those are some great sites, though!

I was just wondering if you could give me a 5-minute lesson on "php" and "mysql." Dynamic pages sounds cool, but what exactly goes into it? Can you do it by hand, or do you have to have special programs? Do all web hosts support it?

That orchard site, btw, is gorgeous!

kishba
May 30, 2002, 07:46 PM
ok... here's a quick run down on each of them:

PHP = This is basically an application running on the server that "interprets" pages that you usually code manually... when someone requests a page (like on macrumors) that ends in ".php", the program goes through and changes the code to regular html... here's an example:

i have several "template" files (named "header.php" and "footer.php") that i insert the code:

"<? include("header.php"); ?>"

This places the content of the file into the web page... you can do cool stuff with the time and date...etc

MYSQL = another program on the server only it is a database program. basically information is stored in a database and, using PHP, it is retrieved by the PHP pages... here's a description of an example:

i store the events on the orchard site in database so everytime you visit the events page, the listing is dynamically "pulled" and formatted into that pretty list

i also use PHP & MYSQL to make admin pages that allow me or other users to change the events and other important info (with forms)

they're really powerful but not all webhosts provide them... i use phpwebhosting.com (and pay $9.99 a month) for a service with both

i hope you consider doing some cool coding for the site (something else to charge for)... design isn't EVERYTHING, although it is the most important (besides good content)

php & mysql isn't extremely easy to pick up, but once you use more & more you being to "get it"... i've worked with it for almost 7 months now and i try to use it everywhere possible... my goal is to build sites that i don't have to charge for content updates (call me crazy)

alas i can't find many people in my community willing to pay for ANY web design... they'd rather go to the large web firm around here (who charges ridiculous amounts for significantly less)... i would consider working there, but again my dad is making me work with him

anyways, good luck with the site and if you need any help let me know :)

cleo
May 30, 2002, 07:52 PM
OMG. I hand-coded a site about a year ago that consisted of over 100 hundred individual pages with information for service organizations - contact person, phone number, address, what they need, etc. This would have been SO perfect.

If you do this database bit (assuming the server supports it), is the (relatively idiotic when it comes to computers) client able to update the database on their own (for example, change a phone number), or is still something you would do?

Wow, I'm so excited! Now if I could just pay off my iMac so I can get Dreamweaver...

cleo
May 30, 2002, 07:56 PM
There's a site called www.elance.com where people post projects and you bid on them. I've never used it, and I don't know what the specific fees are like, but it looks like it could make you a lot of money if you're ambitious enough.

kishba
May 30, 2002, 07:57 PM
as long as you create the form that "talks" to the database then anything can be updated :)

it's REALLY power and REALLY cool

i can understand why you'd want dreamweaver because it's a nice gui editor but if you can just use the demo that macromedia offers and then get bbedit

coding is just much cooler at times... especially if you're working with php & mysql. dreamweaver supposedly works well with php now but i have yet to have much luck with it... dreamweaver just lacks.... something (i don't know what though)

do you have aim? if so you can im me @ kishba03 for anymore questions you have :)

it'd be pretty bad to have this turn into just an "im log" hehehehe

kishba
May 30, 2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by cleo
There's a site called www.elance.com where people post projects and you bid on them. I've never used it, and I don't know what the specific fees are like, but it looks like it could make you a lot of money if you're ambitious enough.

thanks for the link... i'll definitely look into it !!

Macette
May 31, 2002, 04:13 AM
I just found this thread... but it's right up my alley.

Everybody's suggestions about pricing etc have been really good.

I've done a few sites, and the way I started getting jobs was to volunteer to an organisation called Ethical Business Network (http://www.ethicalbusiness.com.au), whose principles I kinda liked. I said 'I'll do your website for nothin', but I want you to help me out with: a) my web access fee ($200Aus a year); b) cover me for the books I want to buy to help me learn (Quickstart guides etc) and c) tell your friends about me.' So I got some more work that way. A good way to get work is to find a local company whose site hasn't been updated for a while, ring them up and say 'hey - i notice your site hasn't been updated for a while.. need a hand?.

A couple of months ago, I noticed that my favourite music-makers, the Australian Art Orchestra (kind of jazz-meet-symphony-meets-world-meets-electronica) hadn't updated their site for a while. (It's at http://www.aao.com.au). So I rang them and asked if I could help, and now they're paying me to do an overhaul - which i'm working on (http://www.alphalink.com.au/~virg). It'll be done pretty soon I think. (any feedback??)

Just put yourself out there, and slowly but surely you'll get results. Then, as you get more experience, you can up your prices and soon you'll be... A MILLIONAIRE. Mwah ha ha.

iGav
May 31, 2002, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by kishba

i can understand why you'd want dreamweaver because it's a nice gui editor but if you can just use the demo that macromedia offers and then get bbedit

coding is just much cooler at times... especially if you're working with php & mysql. dreamweaver supposedly works well with php now but i have yet to have much luck with it... dreamweaver just lacks.... something (i don't know what though)


That's why I use GoLive and BBedit...... it's so much better...... :) but you can't beat a good web developer........ :D

Mr. Anderson
May 31, 2002, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by cleo
There's a site called www.elance.com where people post projects and you bid on them. I've never used it, and I don't know what the specific fees are like, but it looks like it could make you a lot of money if you're ambitious enough.

wow, I got all excited, but then when I went to the site and took a look at some of the jobs, ouch. Pretty tough competition, small margin for profit. And not only that, you have to pay to play - something like $360 up front for a year. I guess if you were serious about doing the freelance you might be able to justify it, but competing against all the other firms (and we're talking groups of people, not just guys going solo) its a bit intimidating.

cleo
May 31, 2002, 09:19 AM
Ouch. Yeah, $360 seems pretty steep just to get in the game. Macette, I really like your idea of bartering for books, web hosting costs, etc. I really wish I could devote myself to this kind of stuff full-time, because I know of dozens of local businesses that have really outdated websites. Unfortunately, I still have school for another year, minimum, so I have to kind of restrain my enthusiasm. At this point I think I'm just going to ask the guy for cash, and help him set up his hosting and stuff so he'll pay it directly... I don't want to get myself too caught up in web stuff when I still have real work to do... :(

(Yes, I'm feeling rather pessimistic today. Blah. Must be the weather. It's not supposed to be cloudy in Florida!)

kishba
May 31, 2002, 02:23 PM
i too was excited about elance

but there's no chance i'll be able to put $300 up front with only the hope that i'll win a bid without any previous winning bids (everyone on the site has a bunch)

plus there are real firms with reputable names (i assume) that are bidding for the jobs

i have no chance :(

Mr. Anderson
May 31, 2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by kishba
i too was excited about elance

but there's no chance i'll be able to put $300 up front with only the hope that i'll win a bid without any previous winning bids (everyone on the site has a bunch)

plus there are real firms with reputable names (i assume) that are bidding for the jobs

i have no chance :(
That's exactly how I felt. I like the whole concept and I don't think the lowest bidder should get the job (I don't think that happens, not sure though). But if you have good portfolio you could bid and see what happens, because a lot of times clients would be looking for a certain look or feel and not everyone has the same style.

I just think I would end up spending a lot of time trying to get any gig that I'd never have time to do the actual work.