What is really going on in Iraq.

[g5man]

We have made significant progress during combat operations against non-compliant forces while continuing the steady improvement in the quality of life for the Iraqi people through civilian-military operations.

____ The former regime elements we have been combating have been brought to their knees._ Capturing Saddam was a major operational and psychological defeat for the enemy._ But a more important result of his capture is the increase in accurate information brought forward by Iraqis allowing us to conduct numerous precise raids to kill or capture financiers, IED-makers, and mid-level leaders of the former regime._ These groups are still a threat, but a fractured, sporadic threat with the leadership destabilized, finances interdicted and no hope of the Ba'athists' return to power.

____ The number of enemy attacks against our forces has been declining since a peak in November during Ramadan._ And now their desperate attacks are targeting civilians; terrorist car bombs have killed innocent civilians and Iraqi police; ambushes attacked civilian supply convoys and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps soldiers, demonstrating the enemy's disdain for peace and prosperity in Iraq and for Iraqis._ The enemy is focused solely on indiscriminate murder and promoting their own cause._

____ The attacks against Iraqi security forces have not deterred brave Iraqis, however, from joining these organizations._ In my area alone we have recruited over 5,000 Iraqi Civil Defense Corps soldiers, 18,000 police officers and 2,000 border police._ These forces are conducting joint patrols with coalition forces as well as independent operations to defeat anti-coalition elements._ Many of these men have given their lives defending the prosperous future Iraqis are building.

____ We're still conducting combat operations._ We continue to focus on extensive civil-military operations._ Over the past 10 months we have completed nearly 2,000 improvement projects valued at $41 million throughout our area of operations. Today we have another 700 projects worth almost $42 million in progress._ We have another -- we have refurbished over 600 schools, 70 mosques, 75 medical facilities, improved over 500 miles of roads, completed hundreds of other projects for children, such as soccer fields and youth centers._ These projects have created over 60,000 jobs and have been a major boost to local economies._

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20040122-1185.html

Those running for President on the Democratic side need to become a little more informed.

[Desertrat]

Lots of bits and pieces of this sort come out, but little play is given in the media. No blood.

I've read that more people have electricity and running water now, than before the invasion...

'Rat

[amnesiac1984]

you can't say this is what is really going on in iraq, this is the military's version of events. If you want to get inforemd about the state of iraq the only way would be to go there and talk to the people.

[Desertrat]

You're right, amnesiac1984. Go, forthwith, and report back! :)

The thing is, the blood and gore is of more interest to the media in general, compared to the mundane chores of restoration of water and electricity and jobs.

Not all positive reports are lies; not all gloom and doom reports are the whole picture...The converse is also true, of course.

'Rat

[amnesiac1984]

i guess my main point is that this article is from a direct military source and is not independent.

[kettle]

Stargate?:p

[numediaman]

Well, I'm glad it was all worth it.

We invaded Iraq to punish the Iraqis for blowing up the twin towers (it was the Iraqis, wasn't it?); we took away all their WMD (at least the ones that the French didn't hide from us); and we were able to capture Osama bin Ladin in the process (we did get him, right?).

Seems worth the price of international isolation, over 500 dead, 3000 wounded, and the huge divide of the country that is clearly reflected on these threads.

Can't wait for the next war. Vote Bush!!

(By the way, before I get flamed, remember, I did not get personal. OK?)

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by numediaman
Well, I'm glad it was all worth it.

We invaded Iraq to punish the Iraqis for blowing up the twin towers (it was the Iraqis, wasn't it?); we took away all their WMD (at least the ones that the French didn't hide from us); and we were able to capture Osama bin Ladin in the process (we did get him, right?).

Seems worth the price of international isolation, over 500 dead, 3000 wounded, and the huge divide of the country that is clearly reflected on these threads.

Can't wait for the next war. Vote Bush!!

(By the way, before I get flamed, remember, I did not get personal. OK?)


While I do agree that their are strong feelings on both sides of the War in Iraq issue in this country I don't think that citing the Macrumors Politics forum is a very accurate example of this division at all. The people who frequent this particular forum are Mac users/enthusiasts<sp?> that are willing/eager to voice their strong political views. I don't think that counts as an accurate cross section of Americans. ;)


Lethal

[Neserk]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
The people who frequent this particular forum are Mac users/enthusiasts<sp?> that are willing/eager to voice their strong political views. I don't think that counts as an accurate cross section of Americans. ;)


Lethal

Except me. I came here for the intelligent discussions on politics. Are MAC users more intelligent than the average person? From my experience, it sure seeems so.

signed: MAC user wanna be (although I do like my XP.)

[Desertrat]

neserk, I think you'll find any narrow-focus website will generally have some pretty bright people posting there. As the interest broadens, you can't help but pick up folks with lesser understanding of issues, regardless of political views.

Me? I could care less what brand of computer or software anybody uses. If folks are happy with what they have, they're doing just fine. I tend to have that attitude about others' clothes, diet, guns, cars and taste in movies, for that matter...

:), 'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

The pollsters and the pundits are telling us we in this forum are a microcosm of voters at large. We may be more interested in discussing them then average, but the nation as a whole is sharply divided over these issues.

[g5man]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
The pollsters and the pundits are telling us we in this forum are a microcosm of voters at large. We may be more interested in discussing them then average, but the nation as a whole is sharply divided over these issues.

These are some very bold statements from you. Please give me some evidence of what pollster or pundit actually even took notice of this forum. Secondly please give me a good poll documenting that the nation as a whole is divided in regards to Iraq.

I actually listened to a pollster from the Cook Report I believe. He said something very interesting. He had a room of 10 people equally devided between liberals and conservatives There were split 50/50 in their views, yet the liberals appeared to have a more vocal and stronger position. In the end the liberals were only speaking so much louder one got the impression everyone in the room was almost in agreement.

In this forum we may have a close to equal representation but the forum comes across extreemly left wing. This is only because the conservatives do not post as much as the liberals.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by g5man
These are some very bold statements from you. Please give me some evidence of what pollster or pundit actually even took notice of this forum. Secondly please give me a good poll documenting that the nation as a whole is divided in regards to Iraq.

Funny that you of all people should demand proof of an idea's popularity, oh ye of the unsupported "the American people believe what I believe and that's why I'm right end of story" rapport gras.

[g5man]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
Funny that you of all people should demand proof of an idea's popularity, oh ye of the unsupported "the American people believe what I believe and that's why I'm right end of story" rapport gras.

Try to be intellectually honest please. The statement I made also pointed out that public opinion was not the the factual basis behind my view. Just the fact that liberals are simply greatly out of touch with those they hope will vote for them, which in itself backs up my landslide view for Bush.

So are you going to offer proof for IJ?

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
The pollsters and the pundits are telling us we in this forum are a microcosm of voters at large. We may be more interested in discussing them then average, but the nation as a whole is sharply divided over these issues.

So, what you are saying, is that the Polictical Discussions & War Discussion forum on Macrumors.com has been verified to represent an accurate cross-section of America?


Neserk,
Not to be a kill joy but intelligent discussions are few and far between here. 8 times outta 10 times threads will go up in flames quicker than CA in September. ;)



Lethal

[DavisBAnimal]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
So, what you are saying, is that the Polictical Discussions & War Discussion forum on Macrumors.com has been verified to represent an accurate cross-section of America?


Is this a serious question?

I don't think he meant any pundits came to Macrumors, read this forum, then deamed it representative of the nation as a whole - just that the divided nature of the debates found here is indicative of the divided political climate of the country, as described by media pundits (rememer that Time magazine cover article with GW - the one that said "Love Him / Hate Him"?).

This may be the case politically - although I agree with g5man that the liberal posts do far outnumber the conservative posts, more so than liberals outnumber conservatives in the country at large (although many polls have demonstrated that Americans lean liberal on most issues - affirmative action, gay rights, gun control and health care - although they remain conservative on such issues as taxes and the death penalty).

Macrumors is one of the most disgustingly unrepresentative forums of idea exchange out there. Admit it - how many people here AREN'T geeky white dudes?

Davis

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by g5man
Try to be intellectually honest please.

That's rich: you asking somone for honesty.

The statement I made also pointed out that public opinion was not the the factual basis behind my view. Just the fact that liberals are simply greatly out of touch with those they hope will vote for them, which in itself backs up my landslide view for Bush.

You deny that you've previously claimed majority public opinion "on your side?"

IIRC, that's been the crux of most of your arguments here.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
So, what you are saying, is that the Polictical Discussions & War Discussion forum on Macrumors.com has been verified to represent an accurate cross-section of America?

No, I said what you quoted back.

[g5man]

Originally posted by pseudobrit

You deny that you've previously claimed majority public opinion "on your side?"



pseudobrit,

Please try to read what I said before responding. I did not deny saying it but not in the context you keep implying. Here is the statement in question.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=673353#post673353

Well you can add the 190 million Americans who are sick right along with me. But I am not using that reasoning to justify my position, but simply to point out how out of touch you guys are in an election year.

[g5man]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
No, I said what you quoted back.

Some how he believes this reply will suffice.

However, it appears he jumped the gun on this one and now he knows he has no way to take it back.

This is not really that important, but it does shed some light in how some people think.

Here is a perfect example among many why I spend time here. I learn each day or a few days why one would have the complete opposite view after looking at the same set of facts.

In this case it may appear the divided nature of this forum mirrors that of the general population. The lesson to be learned after Nov. is never, never underestimate the silent majority.

A good example is Iowa. Every poll had Dean leading. He appeared to be one with the true feelings of a large portion of the Democratic left. Even when he was behind in the tracking polls by 3 points one could safely assume it would be close. He ended up loosing to the moderate democratic vote who went for Kerry and Edwards by a score of 70 to 18. I think you get the picture.

[wwworry]

The Iowa caucuses are not run in the regular way primaries are. It's more about trading and bargaining. I wish people would just wait for us to vote before deciding who has won the general election.

[Desertrat]

OK. Sorry I went off topic in my response to neserk. My only defense is that he appears new (to me) in posting to this forum. But why don't you guys take it to PMs or email when you get personal?

:), 'Rat

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
No, I said what you quoted back.

What's w/the flippant reply? I was just asking for clarification of a seemingly bold statement. If you were being figurative just say so. If you were being literal just say so and provide a link if you can.


DavisBAnimal,
The Q was serious because I didn't know of IJ was being literal or not. I assume he wasn't, but you know what happends when people start assuming things. ;) That's why I asked the Q for clarificaiton. The nation is divided, this forum is divided, but I don't think this forum is an accurate representation of the nation. IMO it's a relevant distiction to make.


Lethal

[K4NN4B15]

Im curious. Do people still think we are fighting baath soilders in Iraq?

[pseudobrit]

Everyone knows who we're fighting in Iraq.

Terrorists.

[and if I may add some Bush buzzwords:

Bad guys.

Thugs.

Killers.

Enemies of freedom!]

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
What's w/the flippant reply? I was just asking for clarification of a seemingly bold statement. If you were being figurative just say so. If you were being literal just say so and provide a link if you can.

I made a clear (and I would have thought, noncontroversial) statement and you imposed your own rather grand interpretation. It wasn't "flippant" of me to direct you back to what I'd said originally. I don't know what kind of a reference would satisfy your curiosity. All the recent national polls I've seen indicate a sharp divide in opinions in the US. The war in particular has created very little middle ground.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
I made a clear (and I would have thought, noncontroversial) statement and you imposed your own rather grand interpretation. It wasn't "flippant" of me to direct you back to what I'd said originally. I don't know what kind of a reference would satisfy your curiosity. All the recent national polls I've seen indicate a sharp divide in opinions in the US. The war in particular has created very little middle ground.

I'm not saying there is no divide, I'm saying that this Macrumors forum is not an accurate cross section of America. Macrumors is no more an accurate representation of politics at large in America than it is of computing at large in America. I did not impose my "...own rather grand interpretation..." on your comment. I asked a question in an attempt to better understand your statement. And instead of answering my Q, or helping me to understand what you said, you rather tartly refered me back to the source of my question. That is why I called your reply "flippant."


Lethal

[Desertrat]

K4NN, the odds are that some Baathists are still shooting. We do know from public statements that Al Qaeda has called for jihadists to go to Iraq to fight the Satanists, and the car-bombing stuff is more likely AQ than Baathists.

Mostly speculation on my part, but the types of targets reflect both groups. The AQ don't seem to care who gets blown up, and to date--stipulating they do most of the car bombing--there have been more Iraqi innocents killed than GIs. They're apparently focussing on disorder and chaos, what with sabotage of facilities and targeting Iraqi officials. I'd further guess it's mostly ex-Army Baathists shooting SAMs at airplanes.

FWIW, 'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I'm not saying there is no divide, I'm saying that this Macrumors forum is not an accurate cross section of America. Macrumors is no more an accurate representation of politics at large in America than it is of computing at large in America. I did not impose my "...own rather grand interpretation..." on your comment. I asked a question in an attempt to better understand your statement. And instead of answering my Q, or helping me to understand what you said, you rather tartly refered me back to the source of my question. That is why I called your reply "flippant."

Nope, you did not ask for clarification. You tried to spin my observation with, "So, what you are saying, is that the Political Discussions & War Discussion forum on Macrumors.com has been verified to represent an accurate cross-section of America?"

Clearly I was generalizing, and I'd said nothing about "verification" or "accuracy," which is why I referred you back to my original post. A bit abruptly, perhaps, and I'm sorry you took offense, but I do get a bit prickly sometimes about having to repeat what seems to be a simple, clear, and in this case, non-controversial statement.

[g5man]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Nope, you did not ask for clarification. You tried to spin my observation with, "So, what you are saying, is that the Political Discussions & War Discussion forum on Macrumors.com has been verified to represent an accurate cross-section of America?"

Clearly I was generalizing, and I'd said nothing about "verification" or "accuracy," which is why I referred you back to my original post. A bit abruptly, perhaps, and I'm sorry you took offense, but I do get a bit prickly sometimes about having to repeat what seems to be a simple, clear, and in this case, non-controversial statement.

lethal,

You might as well drop it since it does not appear he understands the implication of his own statements.

[g5man]

Originally posted by Desertrat
K4NN, the odds are that some Baathists are still shooting. We do know from public statements that Al Qaeda has called for jihadists to go to Iraq to fight the Satanists, and the car-bombing stuff is more likely AQ than Baathists.

Mostly speculation on my part, but the types of targets reflect both groups. The AQ don't seem to care who gets blown up, and to date--stipulating they do most of the car bombing--there have been more Iraqi innocents killed than GIs. They're apparently focussing on disorder and chaos, what with sabotage of facilities and targeting Iraqi officials. I'd further guess it's mostly ex-Army Baathists shooting SAMs at airplanes.

FWIW, 'Rat

We will see an increase in attacks on our troops in the next few months. The reason is that we have a significant increase in millitary traffic as we rotate 108K troops. The new troops are green and will take a few month to get the used to conditions..

Thanks to Saddam's peaceful nature, the country is full of millitary amunition. The number of attackers is decreasing, but given their ample access to weapons I forsee a long road for at least 2 more years.

There is still a great deal of intimidation by the old Baath party security establishment. Until Bush is re-elected many Iraqis are still uncertain that the left in this country will keep the troops in Iraq if they take over the White House in 2005.