Obama calling McCain John during the debate

[madfresh]

I was debating this with other people, and some people thought Obama was being very disrespectful calling him John. Other people said it made Obama seem even the more friendly to them. What is your guy's perception on it?

[NT1440]

Ill tell you what makes someone seem disrespectful, not even looking them in the eyes then continually and purposefully lying about their policies.

In what world is using someones name disrespectful?

[OttawaGuy]

Seems like he was speaking to an equal and his colleague.

[Peace]

What's wrong with calling a fellow Senator by his first name ?

[pseudobrit]

I was debating this with other people, and some people thought Obama was being very disrespectful calling him John. Other people said it made Obama seem even the more friendly to them. What is your guy's perception on it?

I think confirmation bias will cause people to read way too much into esoteric details.

[avigalante]

I agree that people are reading into this far too much.

It was a professional, yet harmless address to Sen. McCain.

[mactastic]

I actually didn't even notice that Obama had called him "John" while I was watching the debate. :o

[miloblithe]

Do you think that George Bush calling John McCain "John" is disrespectful?

How about Joe Lieberman?

Tom Coburn?

Joe Biden?

[iSaint]

Seems like he was speaking to an equal and his colleague.

If we must consider Obama his equal, they should address each other as Senator. I'm 45 years old and I don't call older people by their first names, especially someone with the life experiences of John McCain.

[miloblithe]

If we must consider Obama his equal, they should address each other as Senator. I'm 45 years old and I don't call older people by their first names, especially someone with the life experiences of John McCain.

That's just bizarre. Do you have any colleagues? I'm 35. I call the president and vice presidents of my company by their first names, even if they're in their 70s.

[NT1440]

If we must consider Obama his equal, they should address each other as Senator. I'm 45 years old and I don't call older people by their first names, especially someone with the life experiences of John McCain.

were playing the POW card on the internet now too????

I beleive all adults can call each other by their first names.

[aethelbert]

Obama saved some of his time, which was restricted. Senator McCain is five syllables, John is one. I'm always supportive of someone saving some spit. I say, who cares? They know each other well enough, they can refer to each other by first name.

[TheAnswer]

I was debating this with other people, and some people thought Obama was being very disrespectful calling him John. Other people said it made Obama seem even the more friendly to them. What is your guy's perception on it?

It seemed perfectly fine to me. It probably did seem more friendly, especially in contrast to John's unwillingness to even acknowledge Barack was in the room.

Your friends that saw it as "very disrespectful" probably meant to use the term "uppity".

[Frisco]

If we must consider Obama his equal, they should address each other as Senator. I'm 45 years old and I don't call older people by their first names, especially someone with the life experiences of John McCain.

Your from Mississippi. No wonder.

[RacerX]

You know it is funny that this is being brought up as just this morning I had breakfast with some clients who are big McCain supporters (who had even met with him during the convention last month) and the debates were the first thing they wanted to talk about.

They had asked who I thought won, which I told them that I didn't watch the debates because it seems a bit too much like reality TV for my tastes, so they quickly jumped in to express their thoughts. The first thing they brought up was that McCain wouldn't look at Obama and seemed to be rigidly staring at the camera. They sighted Obama's use of calling him John as an attempt to get him to engage in a discussion but that McCain seemed unwilling to look at the man.

McCain is losing these people. They absolutely won't vote for Obama, but they were so disheartened by McCain's recent performances that they suggested they might not vote at all.

But yeah, they didn't see it as disrespect, they saw it as Obama almost attempting to help McCain get into the dialog of the debates. I still haven't watched myself (as I'm far more interested in reading what the candidates stand for than to see them in the political equivalent of a chicken fight), but I was surprised by these people's reactions as the right wing talking points on the net since the debate has been that Obama was being disrespectful by referring to someone he knows by his first name. It seems that people not part of that echo chamber didn't see it that way.

[Abstract]

Wow.

I call all my professors by their first name, the head of the department at the hospital by his first name, all radiation oncologists, nurses, therapists, physicists, etc......by their first name, and I don't really even know some of these people. That's how everyone addresses them.

Of all the things to pick on, this is it?

[yg17]

His name is John. He called him John. I don't see what the big deal is.

It's more respectful than some words I've used to refer to John :D

[swingerofbirch]

I think how people treat each other shows respect, not what titles they use. You can say Senator McCain in a disrespectful way and say John in a respectful way. So, it's tone as well.

I think you have to remember that we all grow up in different generations, different parts of the world. When I first went to school in Sweden in 3rd grade I was surprised that all students address their teachers by first name. It's just different. Not better or worse. Of course we prefer what we're used to though, I suppose.

[doug in albq]

he called him TOM, once in the debate.

[Ugg]

If we must consider Obama his equal, they should address each other as Senator. I'm 45 years old and I don't call older people by their first names, especially someone with the life experiences of John McCain.

Since you're from the south, it doesn't surprise me that you don't use first names. I can't remember the last time I used Mr or Mrs when talking to someone.

Respect is in the attitude, not the title.

[mactastic]

Remember last election cycle when one of the more pithy GOP slogans was "Flush the Johns"?

Yep... it's all about respect.

[Abstract]

And besides that, "John" never looked at Obama. If we're going to talk about rudeness, and addressing someone in the appropriate manner, how about looking at someone to at least give him the impression that he exists. It wasn't just "unfriendly". It was downright rude.

Even if you're from the south, surely being called John, your first name, isn't as rude as basically ignoring a man.

[leekohler]

Huh? There have been some silly threads on the debate, but I think this one just might take the cake. Calling someone one works with by their first name is hardly disrespectful. And Obama really could have slammed him a few times. Come on- this is just silly.

[yg17]

Since you're from the south, it doesn't surprise me that you don't use first names. I can't remember the last time I used Mr or Mrs when talking to someone.

Respect is in the attitude, not the title.

I agree. With the exception of college professors (except for the ones who wanted to be called by their first name) and my parents, who I call mom and dad, I call everyone by their first name. And that's how I want people to call me. Partly because no one can ever pronounce my last name right, but mostly because I'm not going to judge someone by what name they use, but rather by what they actually have to say.

[freeny]

Well, it is better then "old fart".

Really, this is what you are finding disrespectful?
Dumbest PRSI thread ever. And I've started some pretty dumb ones.

[IJ Reilly]

Jim Lehrer was trying to get the two of them to talk to each other. Obama's response to Lehrer's request was to direct his comment to McCain and call him "John," as if they already knew each other.

[madfresh]

Well, it is better then "old fart".

Really, this is what you are finding disrespectful?
Dumbest PRSI thread ever. And I've started some pretty dumb ones.

Are you talking to me? If you are, you didn't pay close attention to my original post. Anyway, I personally don't have a problem with him calling McCain John. I just know people at work who spent a good hour at work arguing over this issue, and I wanted to see if they were the only ones who cared.

[leekohler]

Are you talking to me? If you are, you didn't pay close attention to my original post. Anyway, I personally don't have a problem with him calling McCain John. I just know people at work who spent a good hour at work arguing over this issue, and I wanted to see if they were the only ones who cared.

As you may have just learned, they are the only ones who care. ;)

[Beric]

I thought it was disrespectful.

Of course, I've grown up with using proper titles all the time. But calling an older former POW senator 30 years your senior "John" definitely seems too familiar.

[NT1440]

I thought it was disrespectful.

Of course, I've grown up with using proper titles all the time. But calling an older former POW senator 30 years your senior "John" definitely seems too familiar.

so we play the POW card yet again.

Its honestly getting hard to give a damn what the hell happened to him when he and his supporters use it as an excuse for everything.

After all the lying and down right dirty politicking hes done against obama he should consider it a compliment that he even referred to him without using profanity. That speaks volumes to Obamas character in my books.

[Rodimus Prime]

are you talking about that worthless garbage of a debate that was supposed to be on foreign affairs that for over 30 mins was just about the economy and bail out.

yeah I turned it off when I heard the same thing for the 5th time in those 30 mins and all it was about the bail out. Not about foreign affairs which quite frankly needs a lot more work bail out that quite frankly those 2 more than likely have very little part in.

A WORTHLESS debate that told us nothing.

[Cleverboy]

I'm personally stunned by the amount of stupid chatter people think makes a difference in this campaign. Oh, he's calling him "John"! Oh, my!

I'm stunned that this is someone "important".

~ CB

[Peace]

are you talking about that worthless garbage of a debate that was supposed to be on foreign affairs that for over 30 mins was just about the economy and bail out.

yeah I turned it off when I heard the same thing for the 5th time in those 30 mins and all it was about the bail out. Not about foreign affairs which quite frankly needs a lot more work bail out that quite frankly those 2 more than likely have very little part in.

A WORTHLESS debate that told us nothing.

What do you do? copy and paste in different forums ?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=6320904&postcount=6

[IJ Reilly]

I'm personally stunned by the amount of stupid chatter people think makes a difference in this campaign. Oh, he's calling him "John"! Oh, my!

I'm stunned that this is someone "important".

~ CB

You dwell on the trivial and the extraneous when that's all you've got.

[Rodimus Prime]

What do you do? copy and paste in different forums ?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=6320904&postcount=6

yeah because I meant to post it here not where it was. Stupid 4 tabs open at one time.

[it5five]

I didn't find it disrespectful at all. I'm also glad I wasn't raised by ultra-conservative/traditionalist parents who would find calling somebody by their first name to be an offense.

The only people I don't address by their first names are my parents (I call them mom and dad), and some of my professors (a lot of my teachers are doctoral students, whom I all address by their first names).

[Don't panic]

I thought it was disrespectful.

Of course, I've grown up with using proper titles all the time. But calling an older former POW senator 30 years your senior "John" definitely seems too familiar.

'Master' would have been much more appropriate...:rolleyes:

[.Andy]

I thought it was disrespectful.

Of course, I've grown up with using proper titles all the time. But calling an older former POW senator 30 years your senior "John" definitely seems too familiar.
So if we checked your post history you wouldn't have referred to anyone, lets say for instance Albert Gore, by anything but his proper title? After all he's your senior, a former serviceman, and a Nobel Peace Prize laureate. Al would definitely be too familiar right?

[skunk]

'Master' would have been much more appropriate...:rolleyes:"Massa" or "Bwana", I think. Bloody upstarts. Who do they think they are?

[skunk]

If we must consider Obama his equal, they should address each other as Senator. I'm 45 years old and I don't call older people by their first names, especially someone with the life experiences of John McCain.I am astounded. What the hell does "If we must consider Obama his equal" mean? Do you call your father "Sir", too? What has "life experience" - whatever that is - to do with anything?

[yoppie]

LOL @ people thinking Obama was being disrespectful for calling McCain by his first name. Where was all this disrespectful talk when Faux News, the McCain campaign, and the McCain supporters were trying to scare people by using Obama's middle name in ads and such?

It's his name, people. Get a life. :rolleyes:

Better yet, learn some manners and tell McCain to acknowledge the person with whom he is speaking by looking at them (or at least in their direction). That's something you're supposed to learn in grade school. Perhaps he was the second to last student in kindergarten too.

[edesignuk]

LOL @ people thinking Obama was being disrespectful for calling McCain by his first name.Sums up my thoughts exactly I think.

I mean really :rolleyes:

[mrwizardno2]

Sums up my thoughts exactly I think.

I mean really :rolleyes:

Couldn't agree more. Ridiculous.

[Queso]

I'm just wondering whether it's those from a military background, where calling people Sir is pretty much mandatory, are those complaining about this.

[iSaint]

I am astounded. What the hell does "If we must consider Obama his equal" mean? Do you call your father "Sir", too? What has "life experience" - whatever that is - to do with anything?

Lots. You're a pot-smoking hippie. I'm not sure what you do in life, but you're intelligent, though you try to intimidate people on this board. I probably won't call you sir very often.

What McCain has been through deserves respect, and a respectful title.

Your from Mississippi. No wonder.

Sure am. A place where people still respect others for who they are and what they've accomplished. Those who don't, probably not from the south, are the reason our country has someone like Obama in the presidential race. If I met him, I would call him "Senator," which is the title he has earned and deserves.

[yoppie]

Sure am. A place where people still respect others for who they are and what they've accomplished. Those who don't, probably not from the south, are the reason our country has someone like Obama in the presidential race. If I met him, I would call him "Senator," which is the title he has earned and deserves.

Would you look at him while speaking to him? If not, why not?

[arkitect]

Sure am. A place where people still respect others for who they are and what they've accomplished. Those who don't, probably not from the south, are the reason our country has someone like Obama in the presidential race. If I met him, I would call him "Senator," which is the title he has earned and deserves.

What an astonishing post. 1950s Mississippi is alive and well.
:eek:

I'd bet calling Obama "Sir" certainly would stick in your throat…

[edesignuk]

Lots. You're a pot-smoking hippie. I'm not sure what you do in life, but you're intelligent, though you try to intimidate people on this board. I probably won't call you sir very often.

What McCain has been through deserves respect, and a respectful title.Each to their own and all that, but I don't think that because you personally like to show "respect" by addressing people as Mr xxxx/Sir means that others not doing it are deliberately being disrespectful.

There's a lot of people I've respected over the years who are senior to me in every way (age, position) but I've never once called any of them Mr xxxx/Sir.

I cannot fathom why anyone would think that John is somehow superior to Barack, they are both Presidential candidates :rolleyes:

The meaningless drivel you lot can find to pick on is astounding, mountains out of mole hills.
Sure am. A place where people still respect others for who they are and what they've accomplished. Those who don't, probably not from the south, are the reason our country has someone like Obama in the presidential race. If I met him, I would call him "Senator," which is the title he has earned and deserves.Oh
My
God

<dies>

[TheAnswer]

Lots. You're a pot-smoking hippie. I'm not sure what you do in life, but you're intelligent, though you try to intimidate people on this board. I probably won't call you sir very often.

What McCain has been through deserves respect, and a respectful title.

I think this is a cultural thing.

In the UK, the title of Sir is reserved for sexy footballers, aged pot smoking singers, and the interbred upper class. They certainly wouldn't give it to a piss-poor pilot turned politician. They'd provide him with the title of Wanker.

[rdowns]

Sure am. A place where people still respect others for who they are and what they've accomplished. Those who don't, probably not from the south, are the reason our country has someone like Obama in the presidential race. If I met him, I would call him "Senator," which is the title he has earned and deserves.

Can you please clarify what you meant here because I can't believe the racism I am reading here.

[iSaint]

What an astonishing post. 1950s Mississippi is alive and well.
:eek:

I'd bet calling Obama "Sir" certainly would stick in your throat…

No, I probably would call him sir, even though he is my age. He is a Senator. I expect the students I teach to call me sir.

Again, lack of respect for others really contributes to many of the problems ongoing in our country/world.

[yoppie]

Sure am. A place where people still respect others for who they are and what they've accomplished. Those who don't, probably not from the south, are the reason our country has someone like Obama in the presidential race. If I met him, I would call him "Senator," which is the title he has earned and deserves.

How can you say you are from a place that respects others for who they are and what they accomplished, yet in the same sentence disrespect Obama for being a Presidential candidate and for accomplishing the feat when a lot of people said he wouldn't get this far?

FYI, I'm from the south too. :rolleyes:

[iSaint]

Can you please clarify what you meant here because I can't believe the racism I am reading here.

You read racism only because of your preconceived notions. I said I would call Obama sir, and use the title Senator. As in, "Senator Obama." Presidential candidate or not, that's his current position.

[mrwizardno2]

<snip>
They'd provide him with the title of Wanker.

That's about what I think of him, too. Ancient white-haired vulgar liar. Hardly anyone I would want to see in office.

[edesignuk]

Again, lack of respect for others really contributes to many of the problems ongoing in our country/world.Absolutely.

However that's a very different thing on a very different level than we're talking about.

Kids should call their teachers Sir/Mr xxxx. One Presidential candidate to another though? I hardly think it matters.
You read racism only because of your preconceived notions. I said I would call Obama sir, and use the title Senator. As in, "Senator Obama." Presidential candidate or not, that's his current position.I think rdowns was asking about and commenting on your phrasing "someone like Obama".

[rdowns]

Those who don't, probably not from the south, are the reason our country has someone like Obama in the presidential race.

How can anyone read this an anything but racist?

[Queso]

Lots. You're a pot-smoking hippie. I'm not sure what you do in life, but you're intelligent, though you try to intimidate people on this board. I probably won't call you sir very often.
LOL. You honestly think he even wants to be called sir? :D

How can anyone read this an anything but racist?
Don't fall into that one. Lipstick on a Pig wasn't sexism....

[yoppie]

You read racism only because of your preconceived notions. I said I would call Obama sir, and use the title Senator. As in, "Senator Obama." Presidential candidate or not, that's his current position.

Professor, I asked a question about looking someone in the eyes when speaking to them to show your acknowledgement. Can you answer that one for me?

Please don't tell me about other cultures and how they view it as disrespectful to do so. The man in question is an American and is campaigning to be President of the United States of America. He also likes to make it known that he is an American POW so I think it's fair to say that American cultural rules applies for all intents and purposes of this discussion.

Do you consider it to be a sign of a lack of respect when your students (or anyone else for that matter) speak to you without looking at you (or in your direction)?

-----------------------------------------------------------
(Originally a second post...Mitthrawnuruodo edited to make it one since another post 22 minutes later is considered bumping)

Can someone tell me how long I'm supposed to wait for an answer? I don't want to come off rude since I know there are a million other questions on this forum not to mention the happenings of the real world.

Should I continue waiting (perhaps come back later in the week) or should I chop it up to Mississippi ignoring me like McCain did Obama? I asked the question twice. :o

[iSaint]

Absolutely.

However that's a very different thing on a very different level than we're talking about.

Kids should call their teachers Sir/Mr xxxx. One Presidential candidate to another though? I hardly think it matters.
I think rdowns was asking about and commenting on your phrasing "someone like Obama".

Perhaps. But, I meant someone so young with so little life experience compared to McCain.

[iSaint]

Professor, I asked a question about looking someone in the eyes when speaking to them to show your acknowledgement. Can you answer that one for me?

Please don't tell me about other cultures and how they view it as disrespectful to do so. The man in question is an American and is campaigning to be President of the United States of America. He also likes to make it known that he is an American POW so I think it's fair to say that American cultural rules applies for all intents and purposes of this discussion.

Do you consider it to be a sign of a lack of respect when your students (or anyone else for that matter) speak to you without looking at you (or in your direction)?

-----------------------------------------------------------
(Originally a second post...Mitthrawnuruodo edited to make it one since another post 22 minutes later is considered bumping)

Can someone tell me how long I'm supposed to wait for an answer? I don't want to come off rude since I know there are a million other questions on this forum not to mention the happenings of the real world.

Should I continue waiting (perhaps come back later in the week) or should I chop it up to Mississippi ignoring me like McCain did Obama? I asked the question twice. :o

Sorry, but I'm working and don't have time to appease each of your whimsical questions.

[leekohler]

Perhaps. But, I meant someone so young with so little life experience compared to McCain.

Really? Seriously? OK look- enough with this BS. Can we get back to matters of actual consequence? Or is that just way to much to ask?

Sorry, but I'm working and don't have time to appease each of your whimsical questions.

If that's the case, then why are you posting in this thread?

[iSaint]

Really? Seriously? OK look- enough with this BS. Can we get back to matters of actual consequence? Or is that just way to much to ask?



If that's the case, then why are you posting in this thread?

Say, Please, Sir, and I'll consider it.

I fear our marriage is doomed. Religion, politics, money...we don't agree on anything!

[leekohler]

Say, Please, Sir, and I'll consider it.

I fear our marriage is doomed. Religion, politics, money...we don't agree on anything!

I thought you didn't have time for whimsy?

[bobber205]

For status, Obama and McCain are equals. I still have trouble calling some of my professors by their first name. Some of them won't respond to Mr. <last name> so I have to call them by their first name. I understand iSaint's point but he is still wrong imo.

[miloblithe]

iSaint, I see you've avoided my question pointed at you, no doubt because it exposes the weakness of your position.

Once again, do you call any of your colleagues by their first names? You're a teacher right? You must have colleagues of a range of ages. Do you call all of them by their last name if they are older than you?

I dare you to answer this question honestly.

[yoppie]

Sorry, but I'm working and don't have time to appease each of your whimsical questions.

In the time it took for you to write this one line, you could have answered the question. I will just chalk it up and say that you too would not acknowledge Obama's presence in the room. So much for all the hot air you were blowing about showing respect to a person.

The fact that you refused this simple question shows that Mississippi is still backwards.

If it's true that you are a teacher, I hope you are kidding and just saying anything in this moment to show loyalty to your candidate by thinking it's oK to ignore a person with whom you are within arm's length distance. That would be an easier pill to swallow than hearing you really think and believe it's perfectly ok.

I will concede that it would not have hurt Obama to say Senator (although I think John is okay too) but geez you can't be serious in thinking that McCain's behavior wasn't a little rude.

[edesignuk]

Perhaps. But, I meant someone so young with so little life experience compared to McCain.C'mon, if Obama was some 20 year old political graduate that had somehow how got the opportunity to talk to McCain I'd agree and probably expect him to address him as Mr. McCain/Sir, as it is Obama is approaching 50 and is running against him for President. McCain does not "deserve" perceived respect over Obama in the slightest.

[Counterfit]

A place where people still respect others for who they are and what they've accomplished.

Still? That assumes it was the norm before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Summer) too.

[iSaint]

Yep! (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/mar2000/nyc-m22.shtml)

[edesignuk]

Yep! (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/mar2000/nyc-m22.shtml):confused:

[iSaint]

:confused:

(racism is ever-present, so don't throw one historical, though very significant, event at me)

[iSaint]

iSaint, I see you've avoided my question pointed at you, no doubt because it exposes the weakness of your position.

Once again, do you call any of your colleagues by their first names? You're a teacher right? You must have colleagues of a range of ages. Do you call all of them by their last name if they are older than you?

I dare you to answer this question honestly.

I call all of my principals Mr. or Ms. I always address the older teachers by their last names. As a habit, most teachers call each other Mr. or Ms. as a sign of respect, and to show students how we respect each other. Most times I call my students Mr or Miss as a sign of respect. I expect them to do the same.

Not a difficult dare. Give me something else. Like streaking across the highway.

[yg17]

Lots. You're a pot-smoking hippie. I'm not sure what you do in life, but you're intelligent, though you try to intimidate people on this board. I probably won't call you sir very often.

What McCain has been through deserves respect, and a respectful title.



Sure am. A place where people still respect others for who they are and what they've accomplished. Those who don't, probably not from the south, are the reason our country has someone like Obama in the presidential race. If I met him, I would call him "Senator," which is the title he has earned and deserves.

When McCain stops using what he's been through as a political tool and starts respecting it, then maybe I'll respect it. But right now, political tools are fair game.

[yoppie]

(racism is ever-present, so don't throw one historical, though very significant, event at me)

I thought you were supposed to be working and ignoring whimsical questions. Are you in the teacher's lounge eating a stale bagel sandwich for lunch?

I call all of my principals Mr. or Ms. I always address the older teachers by their last names. As a habit, most teachers call each other Mr. or Ms. as a sign of respect, and to show students how we respect each other. Most times I call my students Mr or Miss as a sign of respect. I expect them to do the same.

Not a difficult dare. Give me something else. Like streaking across the highway.

I dare you to answer my whimsical question. I don't want my thought of you to be the incorrect one. Tell me straight up how you feel about the question I asked. Do you talk with your back turned to your principal and colleagues when having a conversation with them?

Streaking across the highway is too easy when some Mississippians streak with relatives.

[yoppie]

Mod please delete. Do not want to be viewed as bumping.

[iSaint]

Yoppie, your personal snipes direct me to ignore your other requests, silly as they are.

[yoppie]

Yoppie, your personal snipes direct me to ignore your other requests, silly as they are.

I will apologize for the personal snipes. I will not attack you anymore since they are silly and immature. Though not a good excuse, I guess I was frustrated with getting you to answer my first question especially when the first few times I did not resort to such tricks/lameness.

I am through with asking you the question for good this time. I take it you don't want to answer it and with cause. Again, I apologize for the poor behavior. Have a good one iSaint, we'll have to agree to disagree on our definition of respect.

[kavika411]

I've only read about a third of the responses in this thread, so my apologies if someone has already said something along these lines, but...

Calling him John, not looking at Obama, etc. are nothing more than public speaking techniques. Assigning concepts such as rudeness or respect or whatever to tactical speaking patterns is odd, at least to me. It's like saying a prosecutor in a criminal trial really meant what he said because he cried in closing arguments, or that Castro can't be messed with because he's always in military garb. Obama was being neither kind, humble, condescending, or whatever by calling McCain by his first name. The same is true of McCain not looking at McCain.

Those are both public speaking tactics, and not very original ones at that. Nothing more. They attempt to elicit from the easily persuadable viewer a specific image of the speaker and/or his opponent.

[yoppie]

I've only read about a third of the responses in this thread, so my apologies if someone has already said something along these lines, but...

Calling him John, not looking at Obama, etc. are nothing more than public speaking techniques. Assigning concepts such as rudeness or respect or whatever to tactical speaking patterns is odd, at least to me. It's like saying a prosecutor in a criminal trial really meant what he said because he cried in closing arguments, or that Castro can't be messed with because he's always in military garb. Obama was being neither kind, humble, condescending, or whatever by calling McCain by his first name. The same is true of McCain not looking at McCain.

Those are both public speaking tactics, and not very original ones at that. Nothing more. They attempt to elicit from the easily persuadable viewer a specific image of the speaker and/or his opponent.

I suppose you are correct in calling this is a tactic. However, there's a reason for said tactic. They do it to give off a certain image/elicit a certain response from the "persuadable." I guess we (the persuadables) are now left to argue whether or not the tactics worked.

One could argue no for both candidates since some people think that Obama was rude for calling McCain John while others (such as myself) thought that McCain's tactic of looking down or elsewhere while talking to Obama was rude.

Another could argue yes, they worked, since McCain's behavior probably appealed to a certain demographic who don't think you should acknowledge Obama's achievements (deserved or undeserved, real or perceived) or that Obama's actions appealed to those that don't see McCain as being this superior, all-powerful, all-worthy guy (deserved or undeserved, real or perceived).

I guess it's whatever the viewers want to see.

Good post though. It presented another look and helps to take away some of the sting of making it personal between the candidates.

[IJ Reilly]

I've only read about a third of the responses in this thread, so my apologies if someone has already said something along these lines, but...

Calling him John, not looking at Obama, etc. are nothing more than public speaking techniques. Assigning concepts such as rudeness or respect or whatever to tactical speaking patterns is odd, at least to me. It's like saying a prosecutor in a criminal trial really meant what he said because he cried in closing arguments, or that Castro can't be messed with because he's always in military garb. Obama was being neither kind, humble, condescending, or whatever by calling McCain by his first name. The same is true of McCain not looking at McCain.

Those are both public speaking tactics, and not very original ones at that. Nothing more. They attempt to elicit from the easily persuadable viewer a specific image of the speaker and/or his opponent.

This and all of the other responses to this somewhat ridiculous question seem to take a wide and very odd diversion around the most important fact, which is that the moderator of this debate implored the two candidates to personalize their exchanges, and talk directly to each other. Obama took him up on the challenge, McCain decidedly did not. If anybody was being rude to anyone else, it was John McCain to Jim Lehrer.

[mactastic]

Perhaps. But, I meant someone so young with so little life experience compared to McCain.
And what of Ms. Palin? I mean, someone so young with so little life experience compared to Biden...

[scotthayes]

This has to be one of the best threads ever, how can you get worked up by somebody calling another person by their given name.

[Peace]

This has to be one of the best threads ever, how can you get worked up by somebody calling another person by their given name.


Ditto on that. I can't believe it's still being discussed.:rolleyes:

[skunk]

Lots. You're a pot-smoking hippie. I'm not sure what you do in life, but you're intelligent, though you try to intimidate people on this board. I probably won't call you sir very often.You know absolutely nothing about me or my habits. Despite my advanced years and enormous life experience I have no desire to be addressed as "Sir" by anyone, least of all you. False respect is sickening.

[IJ Reilly]

You know absolutely nothing about us or our habits. Despite our advanced years and enormous life experience we have no desire to be addressed as "Sir" by anyone, least of all you. False respect is sickening.

Fixed that for you.

[skunk]

Fixed that for you.I am most grateful. Or should that be "we"?

[IJ Reilly]

I am most grateful. Or should that be "we"?

"We are," to be entirely accurate, Your Grace.

[skunk]

"We are," to be entirely accurate, Your Grace.One must always be entirely accurate.

Or should that be "several"?

[TheAnswer]

One must always be entirely accurate.

Or should that be "several"?

One must always be entirely several. Yep. That sounds right.

[skunk]

One must always be entirely several. Yep. That sounds right.Let me write that down, man.

[it5five]

iSaint, I have one very simple question for you. Do you look at your peers when you talk to them? Would you consider it to be disrespectful if someone who was talking to you didn't look at you?

[NT1440]

why is it that everything in this country is based on doing it for the sake of it?

respect just because he was a POW? screw that, I dont care that he was tortured anymore, its tragic yes, but he uses it as a tool. He lies and purposely twists obamas words for a mere power grab. I cannot respect a downright liar who knows he cant win so he has to drag his opponent through the mud in a sad attempt to get in office. Respect for the sake of respect?

sounds like the same principle as blind patriotism to me, and it saddens me.

[Macaddicttt]

You respect the office and call him Senator. However, as many people have already said here, they're colleagues and they can call each other by their first names. It's not like they've never met before. And yes, I understand that they do things differently in the South. Obama's from Chicago and McCain, Arizona. In neither places do colleagues call each other by their title, therefore Obama should not be called "disrespectful" for calling McCain, John.

And as an aside, after living in the South for five years, I found that a lot of people were polite and "respectful" to your face, and then would be merciless behind your back. I'd rather people be straight with me.

[Counterfit]

As a habit, most teachers call each other Mr. or Ms. as a sign of respect, and to show students how we respect each other. Most times I call my students Mr or Miss as a sign of respect. I expect them to do the same.
It sounds like you work in Japan, but everyone speaks English.
Like streaking across the highway.

DO IT!

[Sesshi]

It's now-uncommon courtesy given the general yobbification (sic) of society under the umbrella of meritocratisation (more sic) at large, but it should be extended to those in office by both parties.

It's rather pointless this being a glaring point in either candidate's makeup, but I think you should refer to your political compadres by their title, not 'John' or 'Barack' regardless of whether you know each other well or not. It denotes formal respect.

Especially in the US I think, where the attitude to elected power is much more respectful (too much so even) than say in the UK. You could argue that attitudes like this are indeed, as said by others, bred in in the South, and people expect it.

It won't cost Barack any respect among the yobbified young as perhaps seen here, but it may among others.

[skunk]

It's now-uncommon courtesy given the general yobbification (sic) of society under the umbrella of meritocratisation (more sic) at large, but it should be extended to those in office by both parties.It would be odd to have each of them addressing the other as "Senator", wouldn't it? Would you expect two doctors to continually preface each exchange with "Doctor"? The titles tend to cancel each other out after a while.

Signed:
A Yobbified Youth.

[Sesshi]

It would be odd to have each of them addressing the other as "Senator", wouldn't it? Would you expect two doctors to continually preface each exchange with "Doctor"? The titles tend to cancel each other out after a while.

Signed:
A Yobbified Youth.

No it would not be odd for them to be addressing each other as Senator McCain and Senator Obama.

Signed:
Someone who actually gets invited to functions held by those in office.

[iShater]

Too bad I was on the road and missed the debates. Sounds like there was some "name calling" :p

[skunk]

Signed:
Someone who actually gets invited to functions held by those in office.I am clearly going to have to defer to your exalted social standing, Professor.

[Sesshi]

Indeed, Baldrick.

[IJ Reilly]

It's now-uncommon courtesy given the general yobbification (sic) of society under the umbrella of meritocratisation (more sic) at large, but it should be extended to those in office by both parties.

It's rather pointless this being a glaring point in either candidate's makeup, but I think you should refer to your political compadres by their title, not 'John' or 'Barack' regardless of whether you know each other well or not. It denotes formal respect.

Especially in the US I think, where the attitude to elected power is much more respectful (too much so even) than say in the UK. You could argue that attitudes like this are indeed, as said by others, bred in in the South, and people expect it.

It won't cost Barack any respect among the yobbified young as perhaps seen here, but it may among others.

I thought this had been explained already, but maybe I'm missing something.

This and all of the other responses to this somewhat ridiculous question seem to take a wide and very odd diversion around the most important fact, which is that the moderator of this debate implored the two candidates to personalize their exchanges, and talk directly to each other. Obama took him up on the challenge, McCain decidedly did not. If anybody was being rude to anyone else, it was John McCain to Jim Lehrer.

Or maybe it's not me who is missing something.

[Sesshi]

I thought this had been explained already, but maybe I'm missing something.



Or maybe it's not me who is missing something.

Yes, I believe you are if you're quoting me. 'Personalising' the debate among these classes of candidates is something else altogether.

[IJ Reilly]

Yes, I believe you are. 'Personalising' the debate among these classes of candidates is something else altogether.

You actually watched it then?

[Sesshi]

Oh yes. I've even seen the 'Obamabots' edits.

EDIT:You shouldn't see this as any indication of my opinions regarding the support of each candidate. I am personally in slight disbelief at the McCain-Palin ticket. I'm just saying there is an expected mode of behaviour even now by elected members of a state (i.e. nation state) legislature and those in similar situations.

[IJ Reilly]

Oh yes. I've even seen the 'Obamabots' edits.

Then I would remind you of this exchange,

LEHRER: Do you have something directly to say, Senator Obama, to Senator McCain about what he just said?

OBAMA: Well, I think Senator McCain's absolutely right that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis. I mean, we've had years in which the reigning economic ideology has been what's good for Wall Street, but not what's good for Main Street.

And there are folks out there who've been struggling before this crisis took place. And that's why it's so important, as we solve this short-term problem, that we look at some of the underlying issues that have led to wages and incomes for ordinary Americans to go down, the -- a health care system that is broken, energy policies that are not working, because, you know, 10 days ago, John said that the fundamentals of the economy are sound.

LEHRER: Say it directly to him.

OBAMA: I do not think that they are.

LEHRER: Say it directly to him.

OBAMA: Well, the -- John, 10 days ago, you said that the fundamentals of the economy are sound. And...

MCCAIN: Are you afraid I couldn't hear him?

(LAUGHTER)

LEHRER: I'm just determined to get you all to talk to each other. I'm going to try.

This was actually the second time in the debate where Lehrer attempted to get the candidates to speak to each other instead of the cameras. As I have already said, Obama responded to this request by the moderator by turning to McCain and addressing him directly and personally. McCain didn't respond to this request at all. Throughout he spoke only to the cameras.

Response to your edit: The expectations in the U.S. are different than elsewhere. For better or worse, Americans are positively obsessed with informality.

[spikespike]

also: Please note that he called him "Senator McCain" before he called him John.

[IJ Reilly]

also: Please note that he called him "Senator McCain" before he called him John.

He called him "Senator McCain" 35 times, according to my quick count, and "John" 17 times.

[spikespike]

He called him "Senator McCain" 35 times, according to my quick count, and "John" 17 times.

omg disrespekt

[Sesshi]

Response to your edit: The expectations in the U.S. are different than elsewhere. For better or worse, Americans are positively obsessed with informality.

I'd disagree, in terms of a very broad swathe of the US not around the crinkly edges. That is essentially the crux of what I'm getting at.

[IJ Reilly]

I'd disagree, in terms of a very broad swathe of the US not around the crinkly edges. That is essentially the crux of what I'm getting at.

Sorry, I don't follow this response. What I'm trying to tell you is that Americans generally disdain formality, not just around the "crinkly edges" (whatever that means), but generally. To our ears, two Senators, who presumably are on a first-name basis when they work together in the Senate, expressing that sort of informality in public does not sound so strange. And again, I would point out the moderator's determined efforts to take the two candidates off their lofty perches and down to the level of two people talking to each other. This is a very American concept, one which I see doesn't compute with people who don't live in this culture.

[Sesshi]

No - I'm not talking about casualness of approach with each other in an everyday situation. It is obviously a concept Americans have embraced more than some other cultures. I know you guys really enjoy picking over these sorts of things and I'm not really a huge rebutter by any means, but I'd suggest revisiting my post. The 'yobbification' is a little UK in it's meaning but I was talking more about the attitude to authority held by many Americans.

[IJ Reilly]

No - I'm not talking about casualness of approach with each other in an everyday situation. It is obviously a concept Americans have embraced more than some other cultures. I know you guys really enjoy picking over these sorts of things and I'm not really a huge rebutter by any means, but I'd suggest revisiting my post. The 'yobbification' is a little UK in it's meaning but I was talking more about the attitude to authority held by many Americans.

I have reread your posts, and correct me if I am wrong, but your suggestion is that Americans ought to display formal respect towards our political leaders (in terms of titles, in any event) because that's what Britons do. I don't think transplanting that value makes any particular sense. It's arbitrary at best, because it has more to do with your culture than ours. In fact I believe your suggestion that Americans are more deferential to people in power is probably not correct, but simply expressed in different ways -- for reasons we could discuss.

I'm not very interested in picking this over. I was only making the point that the moderator of the debate was making a determined effort to informalize the proceedings as much as he could. Again, a very American impulse. Obama accepted this challenge in a way I think most Americans understand. I thought the dynamic it created was interesting given that McCain responded by staring icily into the camera the entire time and never even looking at his opponent.

[Wotan31]

That's just bizarre. Do you have any colleagues? I'm 35. I call the president and vice presidents of my company by their first names, even if they're in their 70s.
Perhaps that's why you're not the VP yet. ;)

Although I'll agree that this is a cultural issue. Go to Japan and you won't find anyone calling someone older than themselves by their first name.

[freeny]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

[Mike Teezie]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

Neither can I, but for the record, let me state that I enjoy Obama calling McCain John. It has a humanizing effect that I think works positively for both of them.

[BoyBach]

To all of the Republicans that threw their toys out of the pram over "John": is it okay to call your opponent "That one"?

[mactastic]

And, as expected, crickets.

Come on righties! Where's all that indignation about disrespecting people by not addressing them by their proper title?

Hells bells, at least Obama used John's NAME. McCain couldn't even summon up the respect and decency to use Obama's name. If you truly are concerned about a lack of respect, why so silent?

Is IOKIYAR, again?

It is, isn't it? :p

[atszyman]

He called him "Senator McCain" 35 times, according to my quick count, and "John" 17 times.

And, as expected, crickets.

Come on righties! Where's all that indignation about disrespecting people by not addressing them by their proper title?

Hells bells, at least Obama used John's NAME. McCain couldn't even summon up the respect and decency to use Obama's name. If you truly are concerned about a lack of respect, why so silent?

Is IOKIYAR, again?

It is, isn't it? :p

No, calling your colleague "that guy" only negates 10 of the first-name-over-title slights. McCain gets one more "that guy" and Obama gets 3 more "John" references before it'll be even. Or McCain can call him Barack 7 times.

[abijnk]

No, calling your colleague "that guy" only negates 10 of the first-name-over-title slights. McCain gets one more "that guy" and Obama gets 3 more "John" references before it'll be even. Or McCain can call him Barack 7 times.

Ok, but it wasn't "that guy" it was "that one," so I think you need to refigure the scale. :p

[TheAnswer]

I think I'd rather be "that one" than one of "my fellow prisoners" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mBi7d6e5KI).

[Anuba]

Biden doesn't want to make too much of the "that one" remark, he feels that it's typical McCain in attack mode. When he's on the offense, he has trouble looking his opponent in the eye and calling him by his name.

He talks about it in this interview on ABC... http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5982815
...where he also laughs his head off at Jason Sudekis' Biden impression on SNL.

[iShater]

Looking at some of the photos, link (http://news.aol.com/elections/debates/article/mccains-that-one-line-resonates/199316?icid=100214839x1211213196x1200642827), it seems to me that only one of them even behaves like a president. :cool:

[abijnk]

Looking at some of the photos, link (http://news.aol.com/elections/debates/article/mccains-that-one-line-resonates/199316?icid=100214839x1211213196x1200642827), it seems to me that only one of them even behaves like a president. :cool:

Completely off topic, I think its interesting that both candidates are south-paws. :cool:

[yg17]

Completely off topic, I think its interesting that both candidates are south-paws. :cool:


My mom, who's a lefty (both handedly and politically), saw Obama signing an autograph on TV last night and got excited because he was also a lefty. Then I think I broke her heart when I said "Don't be too excited, McCain's a lefty too"

[Anuba]

My mom, who's a lefty (both handedly and politically), saw Obama signing an autograph on TV last night and got excited because he was also a lefty. Then I think I broke her heart when I said "Don't be too excited, McCain's a lefty too"
Clinton, Bush I, Reagan and Ford were lefties too. Since 1974, lefties have held the presidency for 22 years, righties for 12 (Carter, Bush II... you know, the two 'smart' ones).

I don't know which hand Palin writes with... but Tina Fey is a lefty and I believe she's the smarter of the two. ;)