Obama Calls for Military Draft & Required Service

[Aranince]

http://wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/obam-s13.shtml


In remarks that clearly pointed toward the restoration of the military draft under an Obama administration, the Democratic candidate said Thursday night that his job as president would include demanding that the American people recognize an “obligation” for military service. “If we are going into war, then all of us go, not just some,” Senator Barack Obama declared.

http://www.hithimagain.com/2008/02/02/the-federal-plantation/


Obama’s pitch was even less reassuring (happens at about 5:40 into the video): “. . . one of the things that I’ve proposed, for example, is that I will give a $4000 tuition credit - every student, every year - so that they are not being loaded up with enormous debts, uh, but there will be a community service - a national service component. The military could be one way for you to get this $4000 tuition credit. Another way would be to work in an under-served school that needs help. Another way would be to work in an under-served hospital or a homeless shelter, or a veterans home. The point is, I think it is important for young people to serve.” This is apparently how he spins his platform of “Requir[ing] 100 Hours of Service in College . . .”

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/service/


Expand Service-Learning in Our Nation's Schools: Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year. They will develop national guidelines for service- learning and will give schools better tools both to develop programs and to document student experience. Green Job Corps: Obama and Biden will create an energy-focused youth jobs program to provide disadvantaged youth with service opportunities weatherizing buildings and getting practical experience in fast-growing career fields.
...
Require 100 Hours of Service in College: Obama and Biden will establish a new American Opportunity Tax Credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year.



Which goes against...

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Service hours are great. I fully encourage people to volunteer their time to the government or to organizations. I am an Eagle Scout and a lot of what we do is volunteer to help out. What I don't like is the federal government forcing people to volunteer their time. Yes, every school does require students to have service hours(AFAIK), but that is a requirement the school sets, not the government.

Not to mention I have absolutely no idea where he is going to get $4,000 for every student for college...oh wait...taxes.

[Peace]

Please read what you just wrote. If you can't comprehend what he said I'd recommend a course in remedial english comprehension.

There's a difference between involuntary servitude and incentive programs.

[Aranince]

Please read what you just wrote. If you can't comprehend what he said I'd recommend a course in remedial english comprehension.

There's a difference between involuntary servitude and incentive programs.

You mean...?


Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year...

EDIT: ah, I see what your saying.

[madfresh]

I think you're understanding this wrong. It sounds as if you get rewards/incentives in return for service, not government forcing one to serve.

[scotthayes]

why not, let's see how many wars they start when it's the rich folks kids having to go and fight them.

[Aranince]

I think you're understanding this wrong. It sounds as if you get rewards/exchange in return for service, not government forcing one to serve.

Well it says require 100 hours, but you get $4k in exchange. Its still required by the government, whether you get something or not.

[Peace]

why not, let's see how many wars they start when it's the rich folks kids having to go and fight them.

Exactly!

[yoppie]

Reading is fundamental. :rolleyes:

[leekohler]

I think you're understanding this wrong. It sounds as if you get rewards/exchange in return for service, not government forcing one to serve.

Well- when you can't run on the issues, make something up! :)

[yoppie]

Well it says require 100 hours, but you get $4k in exchange. Its still required by the government, whether you get something or not.

You switched the order. He's saying that he is willing to give students a $4,000 tuition credit to keep their loan debt low. But in order to get it, you have to get off your lazy ass and volunteer someplace or go into the military. He's not going to hand it to you for free.

You don't want the credit, fine, sit at home and rack up student loan debt or better yet pay for it without loans.

[Aranince]

You switched the order. He's saying that he is willing to give students a $4,000 tuition credit to keep their loan debt low. But in order to get it, you have to get off your lazy ass and volunteer someplace or go into the military. He's not going to hand it to you for free.

You don't want the credit, fine, sit at home and rack up student loan debt or better yet pay for it without loans.

I understand what your saying. If that' true(in which I would agree), he should change the headline or whatever its called to not say "Require 100 Hours of Service in College."


Anyway, at least I tried and cited sources...if it counts for anything. :rolleyes:

[Raid]

Well the details are a little sparse in all the quotes, a student getting $40/hour probably sounds pretty good for a student. Also these jobs (arguably) add to the level of service in needy public institutions; which would at least partial offset the tax increase to cover the program. There's also the added benefit of increasing access to higher learning.

The draft program quote really seems incomplete. The quote above makes it sound like Obama would start a draft program, however there's this nasty little "If" at the start of that sentence that indicates there's something more in his thinking that wasn't provided here. :rolleyes:

But whatever, it's not like I think I'm actually going to change anyone's mind by pointing out the obvious.

[Peace]

Although it's been seen as wrong by many generations there are a lot of western countries that require military service.

I personally believe in military service being a veteran. Or if you choose to not do military service do something else to help YOUR country..

In this time of world-wide turmoil citizens need to get off their asses and help instead of being afraid.

[yoppie]

I understand what your saying. If that' true(in which I would agree), he should change the headline or whatever its called to not say "Require 100 Hours of Service in College."


Anyway, at least I tried and cited sources...if it counts for anything. :rolleyes:

Providing sources is good but it's not enough. You need to also read and comprehend beyond the headline.

The 100 hours of service will be required for those who take advantage of the American Opportunity Tax Credit. If you want the credit, you will be required to volunteer. Nothing difficult to understand about that.

Require 100 Hours of Service in College: Obama and Biden will establish a new American Opportunity Tax Credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year.

It's like your boss saying I will pay you X amount for X hours of work. If you want to get paid, you need to work.

[leekohler]

I take it this would also do away with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?

[Aranince]

Providing sources is good but it's not enough. You need to also read and comprehend.

The 100 hours of service will be required for those who take advantage of the American Opportunity Tax Credit. If you want the credit, you will be required to volunteer. Nothing difficult to understand about that.

Require 100 Hours of Service in College: Obama and Biden will establish a new American Opportunity Tax Credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year.

It's like your boss saying I will pay you X amount for X hours of work. If you want to get paid, you need to work.

Ok, I understand. But hey...all this is teaching me is to do better research before I come to the table.

[dukebound85]

isnt this discrimination by class in effect


what im saying is that this program has nooooo incentive to those well off as they dont need the money for school and what not but rather aims at those lower in class standing were it seems like a good deal


reminds me of that thread about LA offering to tie tubes for free and how members there were outraged at it being aimed at african americans since they were poor:rolleyes:

[hobbbz]

Basically I understand it as this: a better GI bill that you can also qualify for without serving in the military. You serve your community in another way to get the money.

[Ugg]

isnt this discrimination by class in effect

what im saying is that this program has nooooo incentive to those well off as they dont need the money for school and what not but rather aims at those lower in class standing were it seems like a good deal


Who is going to pass up free money? Maybe the 4% of Americans who, at least until recently, held the vast majority of the nation's wealth?

In other words, this targets 96% of the population. Hardly discriminatory.

[mactastic]

Which goes against...
So the Vietnam draft was unconstitutional, and all those who evaded it were the real patriots?

Not to mention I have absolutely no idea where he is going to get $4,000 for every student for college...oh wait...taxes.
Taxes are where ALL government spending comes from. Except for the stuff we borrow, but even that has to get paid back with taxes eventually. How is McCain going to pay for the next 100 or 1000 years of the Iraq war... oh wait... taxes! How are we funding the war in Iraq right now? Oh wait... taxes! How is Sarah Palin going to fund her bridge to nowhere? Oh wait... taxes! Where is $700,000,000,000 going to come from to bail out Wall Street? Oh wait... borrowing, then taxes! And so on and so forth...

[abijnk]

reminds me of that thread about LA offering to tie tubes for free and how members there were outraged at it being aimed at african americans since they were poor:rolleyes:

When volunteering in the community results in people being sterilized get back to me... :rolleyes:

[tMac85]

Although it's been seen as wrong by many generations there are a lot of western countries that require military service.

I personally believe in military service being a veteran. Or if you choose to not do military service do something else to help YOUR country..

In this time of world-wide turmoil citizens need to get off their asses and help instead of being afraid.

please....

yeah get off our asses? Like all of us are just sitting here? With out us there would be no need for a president or war. WE are running this nation. The President is just telling us how to.

Just because someone doesnt want to risk their life for others makes them no less of a person. I would never tell anyone i care about/ family member to go risk their life on behalf of mine. i would rather spend every moment with them completely miserable then not at all.

however i completely appreciate the men and women that do. they do things i could never do, and i respect them greatly.

[Cleverboy]

I read the thread title and thought, "What?" Then I noticed all the same policies I'd been reading for the last several months, being severely misunderstood and taken out of context. Sigh. I can't imagine all the other forums stories like this get posted at, that don't have as communicative, well-informed and thoughtful posters to debunk them clearly and correctly.

I was just reading about the money going into an e-mail effort to smear Obama as a radical Muslim... then I see stories like this spread by, I assume, misguided alarmists... and I'm not surprised this election is so close.

~ CB

[.Andy]

isnt this discrimination by class in effect

what im saying is that this program has nooooo incentive to those well off as they dont need the money for school and what not but rather aims at those lower in class standing were it seems like a good deal
I'm rich and I couldn't agree more. I regularly drop $1500 on dinner and a bottle of wine. There's no way I would make my kid do community service for a mere $4000 off his tuition fees. I'd just pay up front for his degree with with cash.

[Cleverboy]

I read the thread title and thought, "What?" Then I noticed all the same policies I'd been reading for the last several months, being severely misunderstood and taken out of context. Sigh. I can't imagine all the other forums stories like this get posted at, that don't have as communicative, well-informed and thoughtful posters to debunk them clearly and correctly.

I was just reading about the money going into an e-mail effort to smear Obama as a radical Muslim... then I see stories like this spread by, I assume, misguided alarmists... and I'm not surprised this election is so close. Although it's been seen as wrong by many generations there are a lot of western countries that require military service.

I personally believe in military service being a veteran. Or if you choose to not do military service do something else to help YOUR country..

In this time of world-wide turmoil citizens need to get off their asses and help instead of being afraid.Bravo. I'm stung by the amount of people that call themselves "patriots" for trafficing in smears and lies about people different from them. I'm irritated by those that don't show any real interest in pitching in to making this country great. I'm just as happy for McCain volunteers as Obama volunteers, at least in principle. I agree with Obama's comment that our Democracy is strongest when we have the most participation in how we elect our leaders.
please....

yeah get off our asses? Like all of us are just sitting here? With out us there would be no need for a president or war. WE are running this nation. The President is just telling us how to.

Just because someone doesnt want to risk their life for others makes them no less of a person. I would never tell anyone i care about/ family member to go risk their life on behalf of mine. i would rather spend every moment with them completely miserable then not at all.

however i completely appreciate the men and women that do. they do things i could never do, and i respect them greatly. You don't "respect" them by sitting ON YOUR ASS. You "respect" them by playing your own part, whatever form that may take. Unless "respect" takes on physical form, it is an empty platitude. Even "faith" (never mind "respect") without works is DEAD.

~ CB

[Sky Blue]

I read the thread title and thought, "What?" Then I noticed all the same policies I'd been reading for the last several months, being severely misunderstood and taken out of context. Sigh.

me too, lol.

I'm thinking to myself "He does? I've never heard him say that??" then I saw "100 hours of service" and could see what the OP was spinning.

[tMac85]

I read the thread title and thought, "What?" Then I noticed all the same policies I'd been reading for the last several months, being severely misunderstood and taken out of context. Sigh. I can't imagine all the other forums stories like this get posted at, that don't have as communicative, well-informed and thoughtful posters to debunk them clearly and correctly.

I was just reading about the money going into an e-mail effort to smear Obama as a radical Muslim... then I see stories like this spread by, I assume, misguided alarmists... and I'm not surprised this election is so close. Bravo. I'm stung by the amount of people that call themselves "patriots" for trafficing in smears and lies about people different from them. I'm irritated by those that don't show any real interest in pitching in to making this country great. I'm just as happy for McCain volunteers as Obama volunteers, at least in principle. I agree with Obama's comment that our Democracy is strongest when we have the most participation in how we elect our leaders.
You don't "respect" them by sitting ON YOUR ASS. You "respect" them by playing your own part, whatever form that may take. Unless "respect" takes on physical form, it is an empty platitude. Even "faith" (never mind "respect") without works is DEAD.

~ CB


There are millions of us here working our ASSES off provide technology, shelter, clothing, food, jobs, equipment for those troops. Im not sure you know the difference between respect and SUPPORT. yes they go hand and hand. but are different.

so you tell me. If i am not respecting them What AM I DOING?

[abijnk]

There are millions of us here working our ASSES off provide technology, shelter, clothing, food, jobs, equipment for those troops. Im not sure you know the difference between respect and SUPPORT. yes they go hand and hand. but are different.

so you tell me. If i am not respecting them What AM I DOING?

What the hell are you getting all hot and bothered for? :confused:

No one ever said "everyone should be a soldier or they are a horrible person." Take a chill pill. If you are in defense work, providing supplies to troops, working with USO, volunteering in the community or in any other way contributing to this country then you have absolutely no reason to be so offended. But, like it or not, there are A LOT of people in this country that are completely apathetic to what goes on around them. They are SITTING ON THEIR ASSES.

[MacNut]

They are SITTING ON THEIR FAT ASSES.Fixed that for you.:p

[tMac85]

What the hell are you getting all hot and bothered for? :confused:

No one ever said "everyone should be a soldier or they are a horrible person." Take a chill pill. If you are in defense work, providing supplies to troops, working with USO, volunteering in the community or in any other way contributing to this country then you have absolutely no reason to be so offended. But, like it or not, there are A LOT of people in this country that are completely apathetic to what goes on around them. They are SITTING ON THEIR ASSES.

im getting hot and bothered at the individual who quoted my post and responded. not you. im not mad, i just dont like when people tell me that I should get off my ass and "stop being afraid" no one should ever have to risk their life if they dont want to. that is why i am getting a little upset. no one is shouting here.

"everyone should be a soldier or they are a horrible person."
never said they said that nor did i respond to it like that.

[abijnk]

im getting hot and bothered at the individual who quoted my post and responded. not you. im not mad, i just dont like when people tell me that I should get off my ass and "stop being afraid" no one should ever have to risk their life if they dont want to. that is why i am getting a little upset. no one is shouting here.

"everyone should be a soldier or they are a horrible person."
never said they said that nor did i respond to it like that.

Well, its a public forum, so I've been able to pay attention to the conversation. No one ever said you were sitting on your ass, or that you should put your neck on the line for anyone. Even the original post you responded to contained a qualifying statement:


Or if you choose to not do military service do something else to help YOUR country..


:confused:

[OutThere]

I'm generally very liberal in my views...but I also feel that a draft is just what this country needs. Without a draft people have no reason to pay attention to what the government does, or any reason to care what we do overseas. Today war is squeezed, filtered, concentrated and served to Americans—if they care for it—lightly chilled. Would there be a pointless war in Iraq right now if the sons (and daughters?) of the wealthiest and most powerful Americans were at stake? Doubtful.

I'm an Eagle Scout as well...if we're going to play the posturing game.

[tMac85]

Well, its a public forum, so I've been able to pay attention to the conversation. No one ever said you were sitting on your ass, or that you should put your neck on the line for anyone. Even the original post you responded to contained a qualifying statement:



:confused:

look man thanks, but I never said I was offended. I was simply speaking for the general population. sorry for sticking up for folks.
moving on...

[spikespike]

I'm rich and I couldn't agree more. I regularly drop $1500 on dinner and a bottle of wine. There's no way I would make my kid do community service for a mere $4000 off his tuition fees. I'd just pay up front for his degree with with cash.

Clearly. And I'd pay it while sitting in my SUV idling the engine while my blonde wife buys things on her iPhone.

[abijnk]

look man thanks, but I never said I was offended. I was simply speaking for the general population. sorry for sticking up for folks.

I really was more interested in the heart of your objection. What is wrong with thinking that those apathetic to the goings on in this country should do more (whether it be in the military or any other form of volunteerism)?

[tMac85]

I really was more interested in the heart of your objection. What is wrong with thinking that those apathetic to the goings on in this country should do more (whether it be in the military or any other form of volunteerism)?

i dont see a problem with that. At all. I dont think they should be made to go into the military, but yes they should do some form of community service. The hard part is figuring out who should and who shouldnt HAVE to. I do think the super rich should give more, however coming from a well off family ( no not super rich) i do work hard, my father works hard and we give back a lot. Its just hard to weed out the lazy.

[Mackilroy]

look man thanks, but I never said I was offended. I was simply speaking for the general population. sorry for sticking up for folks.
moving on...
abiyng87 is a girl, actually. ;) Anyhow, you never said you were offended, but from your tone it seemed clear to me that you felt offended.

That said, it's interesting to me that Obama is offering a $4k credit, and I wonder if McCain would do anything similar were he to be elected President.

[abijnk]

abiyng87 is a girl, actually. ;) A

The Disney kissing avatar doesn't even give it away. :o

[Cleverboy]

There are millions of us here working our ASSES off provide technology, shelter, clothing, food, jobs, equipment for those troops. Im not sure you know the difference between respect and SUPPORT. yes they go hand and hand. but are different. So, you say you're respecting the troops by what, paying taxes?
so you tell me. If i am not respecting them What AM I DOING?It sounds like you're paying taxes. You can say you "respect" something without taking any meaningful real action yourself. In that case, I'd say that person's respect seems empty to me.

For instance... I respect the troops, but I feel my "respect" is a bit hollow, because even though I have family that has served, I've never taken action to contribute my voice toward issues that matter to our servicemen and women. I haven't demonstrated against the war, asking to bring them home... I haven't used my talents to fashion of tribute, I haven't volunteered at a homeless veterans shelter, I haven't written my senator regarding veteran's benefits and the passage of policies that affect them. So, I rightfully feel my "respect" is somewhat hollow, and I hope to correct that someday. I'm not inclined to ever serve myself, but its not really an excuse for sitting ON MY ASS.

If it doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't. Just because a sentence has the word "YOUR" in it, doesn't mean the person is accusing you of anything, or claims to know you. Sometimes its just an invitation for you to examine your own life and see if a statement rings true.

~ CB

[tMac85]

So, you say you're respecting the troops by what, paying taxes?
It sounds like you're paying taxes. You can say you "respect" something without taking any meaningful real action yourself. In that case, I'd say that person's respect seems empty to me.

For instance... I respect the troops, but I feel my "respect" is a bit hollow, because even though I have family that has served, I've never taken action to contribute my voice toward issues that matter to our servicemen and women. I haven't demonstrated against the war, asking to bring them home... I haven't used my talents to fashion of tribute, I haven't volunteered at a homeless veterans shelter, I haven't written my senator regarding veteran's benefits and the passage of policies that affect them. So, I rightfully feel my "respect" is somewhat hollow, and I hope to correct that someday. I'm not inclined to ever serve myself, but its not really an excuse for sitting ON MY ASS.

If it doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't. Just because a sentence has the word "YOUR" in it, doesn't mean the person is accusing you of anything, or claims to know you. Sometimes its just an invitation for you to examine your own life and see if a statement rings true.

~ CB


really dude? how old are you? Taxes? Really? Did you read any of my post? Especially my last one? Like I said before, im not talking about my self, but the general population as a whole. good god. back off.

[NT1440]

That said, it's interesting to me that Obama is offering a $4k credit, and I wonder if McCain would do anything similar were he to be elected President.

Well, hes offering a $5k tax credit....which should really help with the national debt.....

just like a gas tax holidy was really going help people out......


is it just me or is his campaign just one big gimmick?

[Cleverboy]

really dude? how old are you? Taxes? Really? Did you read any of my post? Especially my last one? Like I said before, im not talking about my self, but the general population as a whole. good god. back off.Um... OK. And, Yes... specifically that last one. Although, I was only responding to the post that was responding to mine. :: Looks around sheepishly, wanders out of thread ::

~ CB

[benlee]

isnt this discrimination by class in effect


what im saying is that this program has nooooo incentive to those well off as they dont need the money for school and what not but rather aims at those lower in class standing were it seems like a good deal


reminds me of that thread about LA offering to tie tubes for free and how members there were outraged at it being aimed at african americans since they were poor:rolleyes:

I don't see how an incentive like this is discriminatory. Could you please explain how this even makes sense?

If you don't want the $4000 then you don't do the community service. Not all spending is going to benefit EVERYONE. The constitution only requires it be for the "general welfare." (see Steward Machine Co. v. Davis and South Dakota v. Dole) both Supreme Court cases.

It is impossible to have an incentive program that pertains to every class. And if $4000 isn't worth anything to "those well off" then it shouldn't be of concern.



I'm rich and I couldn't agree more. I regularly drop $1500 on dinner and a bottle of wine. There's no way I would make my kid do community service for a mere $4000 off his tuition fees. I'd just pay up front for his degree with with cash.

I'm sure your child will grow up with a strong work ethic, no entitlement issues and a great sense of community.

[donga]

Well it says require 100 hours, but you get $4k in exchange. Its still required by the government, whether you get something or not.

learn how to read. if you want $4000, you need to serve 100 hours. you don't want $4000, you don't need to. you are not required to do anything against your will.

Anyway, at least I tried and cited sources...

...all this is teaching me is to do better research before I come to the table.

i can't find any better evidence of being a dittohead and speaking before thinking.

your thread title is incredibly misleading, you admit you're wrong, and you still don't change it?

[Peace]

im getting hot and bothered at the individual who quoted my post and responded. not you. im not mad, i just dont like when people tell me that I should get off my ass and "stop being afraid" no one should ever have to risk their life if they dont want to. that is why i am getting a little upset. no one is shouting here.

"everyone should be a soldier or they are a horrible person."
never said they said that nor did i respond to it like that.

My reply to your post wasn't directed at you personally. It was directed at the general state of affairs in the United States right now.

I have no idea what you do to help out and never meant to imply you didn't do anything.

But a vast majority of people in this country actually do nothing to help others and this country other than talk.
As an earlier poster said. Faith without works is useless. It produces nothing. Except in the beholders mind.

And I might add the very title of this discussion is meant to spread confusion and twisted logic. That is a hallmark of the Republican way.

[bobber205]

This thread is hilarious.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Zp0cFoAaIFHbwM:http://www.getentrepreneurial.com/images/laugh.gif

[Don't panic]

isnt this discrimination by class in effect


what im saying is that this program has nooooo incentive to those well off as they dont need the money for school and what not but rather aims at those lower in class standing were it seems like a good deal


in the same way that working is discrimination by class in effect.
if my dad is so rich that i don't have to work, i don't have to work.

[Don't panic]

i wouldn't oppose a draft as long as it was posed as an option between doing armed or civil service and entailing equal commitment and treatment (including economic one).

i think it is a good idea that young people give something to the country, if they are able.