iTunes Europe Red Tape

[MacRumors]

Forbes reports (http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2004/01/24/rtr1225563.html) that red tape continues to tie up iTunes for european countries:

A maze of licensing contracts, music release dates that differ by country and incompatible billing systems have combined to sidetrack the service, which many recording executives still hope will make its European debut in the first half of 2004

[sickracer2015]

Thread on this already:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57164

[Jeferz]

What about Canada, it has to be a more straight forward approach here. I know they're working on it but it seems forever!

I need the convenience of one click music shopping - MADE FOR THE MAC - verse the option of PureTracks.com for the PC weenies.

But I continue to buy CDs and listen to about 2 of the twelve sounds I bought ;-)

[sethypoo]

That really, really bites.

Music should be for everyone, everywhere.

[AhmedFaisal]

Ok the contract thing I believe but the billing stuff is BS. We have Mastercard, VISA, AmEx and DC here as well, same stick. And if kids don't have one yet, there is gift certificates and parents that have one. Yes we STILL suck at ATM, I admit it but we are not that much in the stone age.
Cheers,

Ahmed

[aftk2]

Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Ok the contract thing I believe but the billing stuff is BS. We have Mastercard, VISA, AmEx and DC here as well, same stick. And if kids don't have one yet, there is gift certificates and parents that have one.

I'm pretty sure it's talking about business-to-business billing problems...rather than consumers using the service. (Did I just reference B2B? Ugh...I'm having dot-com flashbacks..)

[varmit]

The problem probably isn't if they can charge European mastercards or visas. But how much each song will cost, there are exchange rates to think abou here. Because the Euro and Dollor flux would mean that if they stuck with 99 cents per song, then that 99 cents would be worth 1 euro one day and 1.5 the next, that is extreme but get the idea here, and billing Europeans like that would piss people off if they didn't get the lowest price. So they have to create a completely new music store with a set price for Europeans using a set price that is fair, and is fair in the sense of the exchange rate.

[~Shard~]

This is really too bad - there is such a market for iTunes and so much increased revenue opportunities just sitting there, and Apple doens't seem to be able to get things working! Not saying it's Apple's fault of course, I'm sure their hands are tied by regulations, etc. in many areas, but still, it is really too bad they can't seem to get things moving for ITMS on an international front.

I'd still like to see iTunes Canada soon though - surely it can't be that much more complicated than whatever it took to set up the USA ITMS?

[hob]

it's SO stupid! Surely the whole iTunes concept should be destroying traditional conecpts such as release dates and currency issues!!

Hob

[AppleMatt]

:(

Although this seems to make sense, how come other companies have brought it to Europe (or the UK at least)?

AppleMatt

[Photorun]

Hopefully all those whining Euro Macrumorites will now stop bashing Apple like Apple was holding out on them, posts like that were too numerous to count. Like, duh, Apple was holding out, they didn't want your stinking money or something. Note: Believe us, they do! And as an Apple stockholder, I want your money TOO!!!

[pianojoe]

Right now I can't download because the billing address on my credit card statement is outside the U.S. It will be equally easy to implement release dates per country. Since this only applies to some brand new releases, the majority of the songs will not be touched by that issue.

Why not start out with one country, say, Germany, which has the largest market in CD sales in Europe. Then let's see what happens. (I'm sure the record companies will find a way to straighten things out if they HAVE to.)

[whocares]

Originally posted by varmit
The problem probably isn't if they can charge European mastercards or visas. But how much each song will cost, there are exchange rates to think abou here. Because the Euro and Dollor flux would mean that if they stuck with 99 cents per song, then that 99 cents would be worth 1 euro one day and 1.5 the next, that is extreme but get the idea here, and billing Europeans like that would piss people off if they didn't get the lowest price. So they have to create a completely new music store with a set price for Europeans using a set price that is fair, and is fair in the sense of the exchange rate.

Not really. European consumers already purchase music (cds, etc) and have no problems with fluctuating prices. A CD will set you back approx 20€, which is rip-off, but the price is/has been constant. Price of music is controlled by disc companies that are either european (think EMI) or have european branches.

The biggest problems would be different tax rates between different contries and different currencies (the UK, one of the biggest markets, still uses Sterling Pounds...). Remember, only 12 of the 15 countries (soon to be 25) use the Euro.

Another problem is users purchasing music from another country. For eg. a French user bying in Germany. Although this is legal and the whole point of the free market, this will most likely piss off the music companies :rolleyes:

[johnnyjibbs]

CD-Wow.com has just had to concede in a legal battle due to it selling import CDs into the UK rather than ones that were "meant for the UK". The net effect is a £2 rise on all prices from CD-Wow.

I guess internet stores like iTunes have all these legal problems. The UK store, for example, would only be allowed music that was destined for Britain. Those record companies need to get a grip. Supporting online music stores will combat piracy, not endless legal palava!

[denjeff]

the problem is very very complex...

apple should tacle every country one by one. that s the only way i think.

and they should start in Belgium.

the only problem maybe is stability of price. but i think that is easy to solve: €.99 per song (they even get more now because $ is cheap). sometimes you win, sometimes you loose...

[jobberwacky]

Originally posted by pcharles
Considering Europe has two currencies, the Pound and the Euro
You should go out more often, e.g. to far and distant places like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland or to Eastern Europe. Europe has more than a dozen currencies, and even if you only consider the countries for which Apple has a customized online store you've still got five currencies.

Andreas

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Ok the contract thing I believe but the billing stuff is BS. We have Mastercard, VISA, AmEx and DC here as well, same stick. And if kids don't have one yet, there is gift certificates and parents that have one. Yes we STILL suck at ATM, I admit it but we are not that much in the stone age.
Cheers,

Ahmed

Not everyone in Europe uses credit cards. Most of the shops I went into in Germany, didnt take credit cards. I am talking about the big stores like Saturn in Essen and Kassel, not just the small ones.

[applekid]

You think the U.S. version of iTunes will be able to access these "international" stores? I'm hoping we'll get access to Europe, Asia, Canada, and others as they come. It'll give us more musical diversity and perhaps access to those hard to find imports. Here's to hoping they will!

Also, here's to hoping we don't get into politics with this thread. :rolleyes:

[rabatjoie]

Originally posted by applekid
You think the U.S. version of iTunes will be able to access these "international" stores? I'm hoping we'll get access to Europe, Asia, Canada, and others as they come. It'll give us more musical diversity and perhaps access to those hard to find imports. Here's to hoping they will!



i think that's hoping a bit too much. just think about the DVD region codes. why should they open the music stores internationally when they can make more money by controlling and separating the market. apart from that, an opening like you imagine it would just contribute to the vanishing of "hard to find imports" because it would erode the notion of exporting and importing itself.

we have to remember that capitalism's goal has always been and is still to make the most money, nothing more. anything good that comes from it is just a sideproduct. (exaggerating a little :cool: )

[walexx]

Now back to Business. I really dont understand what the problem is. Other companies around the world now have music download services (telstra in australia for example started theres just recently), so if other companies can do it, then why cant Apple ?.

Once again Apple innovates and the others copy and Apple gets left behind. It really p**ses me off.

Thanks to a clever loophole that I have managed to discover, I do have access to ITMS here in Australia and its awesome as I use it alot. I would however prefer to be a registered aussie but if the asia pacific Apple group cant get their ****** together then so be it, I will just use my American access. Im still paying for the privildge just like everyone else, so im not ripping anyone off im just resorting to a measure forced on to me by the greed of the record companies.

[Dippo]

The Music Industry (esp. in Europe) is going to get what's coming to them. Legit online music is the last hope to slow down file trading, and by tying up the process they are dooming themselves!

Too bad we can't just give the artists (singers/song writers/etc) their due without having to feed the evil Recording Industry machine.

[Poff]

Originally posted by jobberwacky
You should go out more often, e.g. to far and distant places like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland or to Eastern Europe. Europe has more than a dozen currencies, and even if you only consider the countries for which Apple has a customized online store you've still got five currencies.

Andreas

you beat me to it. And I know the musicstore is going to be established in these countries as well, the Norwegian industry sais they hope and expect that iTMS will come during the first half of 2004.

And I do not understand why people talk about exchange rates. Who cares what a dollar is worth here? When a song is sold here in Norway for example, iTMS will deal with the norwegian record companies, not the american ones. The transaction will go in NOK from buyer to record companies, since both parts use that currency. When they have set a proper price american only songs (or german only for that part), that has no record company in Norway, will either have to follow the same price (and this might be tricky, I don´t know), or maybe they´ll be given an option to abstain from their song being sold in Norway.

[winmacguy]

Originally posted by walexx


Now back to Business. I really dont understand what the problem is. Other companies around the world now have music download services (telstra in australia for example started theres just recently), so if other companies can do it, then why cant Apple ?.

Once again Apple innovates and the others copy and Apple gets left behind. It really p**ses me off.

Thanks to a clever loophole that I have managed to discover, I do have access to ITMS here in Australia and its awesome as I use it alot. I would however prefer to be a registered aussie but if the asia pacific Apple group cant get their ****** together then so be it, I will just use my American access. Im still paying for the privildge just like everyone else, so im not ripping anyone off im just resorting to a measure forced on to me by the greed of the record companies.



I think your over looking something Walexx, Telstra has its own music store in Australia much like iTMS is only in the US at the moment. Let Telstra decide to launch their music store in France or Korea or somewhere and deal with the billing and legslation in those countries and see what that is like... ( Not saying that Telstra is going to do that or anything)

[PTTP]

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fdata%2Fad-24.01.04-002%2F&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Apple manager Eddy Cue announced the Itunes musictstore in europe for this year.

[winmacguy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by walexx


Thanks to a clever loophole that I have managed to discover, I do have access to ITMS here in Australia and its awesome as I use it alot.

Id love to have access in NZ! As far as I understand you need to have an IP address that would be registered in the US (as well as a billing address) For people who dont live in the US

[ITR 81]

Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Ok the contract thing I believe but the billing stuff is BS. We have Mastercard, VISA, AmEx and DC here as well, same stick. And if kids don't have one yet, there is gift certificates and parents that have one. Yes we STILL suck at ATM, I admit it but we are not that much in the stone age.
Cheers,

Ahmed

Well they do have other CC's then the ones you mention. JSP is big card overseas as well.

[Sabenth]

Just read thru some of this red tape stuff.

from day one it should have been simple till everything got sorted. we should have all been allowed to use the US Based store. Makes perfect sense till each itms is up and running. Lawyers who would have em.. :D

[walexx]

Good point about Telstra winmacguy, I never looked at it like that, so point taken.

As for having access to the ITMS, I recently went on a trip to the U.S. and signed up with AOL for free internet access (they have a 60day free access deal going there) so that I can log online with my powerbook while away. I told the girl that I was from Australia, but she didnt seem to care and registered me as an American user.

Well recently when ITMS was made available to AOL members in the US, I decided to see it I could use it, and it worked, and so I was able to download music. Unfortunately after a few weeks my credit card no longer worked as the billing address of my AOL membership and the billing address of my credit card didnt match. So I now have a friend in the US who sends me gift certificates and that lets me continue to download.

As I said, I would much prefer to be a registered Aussie user and do it all legit, but Im still paying for the music so im not stealing the music. Its the greed of the record companies thats holding everything up, so its their fault that I have to resort to this.

I realise giving out all my details on the net here has made me a sitting duck to lose my access to the ITMS and if that happens so be it. It will only happen because of the greed of others, not because of my willingness to pay for downloading music.

[ITR 81]

Well apparently the record companies are on board as we do have UK, French, German, and Swedish record companies now listed as imports in iTMS.


If they are having problems in other countries Apple should open the store to those countries that are good to go.

The others will soon follow once they see the service take off.

What will be funny is if iTMS Japan kicks off before iTMS Europe.

$.99 is .78 euros
$.99 is .54 p
$.99 is 105.14 yen
$.99 is $1.27 in Aussie dollars
$.99 is $1.30 in Canadian dollars.

[Dippo]

Originally posted by walexx
As I said, I would much prefer to be a registered Aussie user and do it all legit, but Im still paying for the music so im not stealing the music. Its the greed of the record companies thats holding everything up, so its their fault that I have to resort to this.

I realise giving out all my details on the net here has made me a sitting duck to lose my access to the ITMS and if that happens so be it. It will only happen because of the greed of others, not because of my willingness to pay for downloading music.

I wouldn't be surprised if the RIAA tried to sue for illegally downloading legal music.

They sue their own customers and then expect them to pay for their music after the $3000+ settlement!!!

[Dippo]

Maybe we should create an iTunes for that doesn't involve the Record Companies. Artists could just upload their songs for a small fee, and everybody could download them. The artist could be paid on a per download basis.

This makes much more sense then how it is done now.

[MikeH]

My word, western Europe tied up with business politics and backstabbing and indecision? What a suprise...

Seriously, getting organisations - even related ones - to agree in Europe (particually between Britain, France & Germany - old rivalries die hard...) to agree is like like pissing into a force 10 wind and hoping not to get any on yourself. I don't envy the Apple legal team this challenge...

[arsonist]

Considering Europe has two currencies, the Pound and the Euro, I have to wonder which is the problem. My guess is the Euro, but then I am British and bias. Having said that, I debate whether Britain is really part of Europe, we don't even like europeans.

em, OK. that kind of takes the biscuit for the dumbest post I've seen all day.

Europe has many currencies other than the pound and euro, there is the kroner, for example. And I would keep your euro phobia to yourself, most brits I've met don't have a problem with Irish, Swedes, Germans or whatevers.

[winmacguy]

Originally posted by walexx
Good point about Telstra winmacguy, I never looked at it like that, so point taken.

As for having access to the ITMS, I recently went on a trip to the U.S. and signed up with AOL for free internet access (they have a 60day free access deal going there) so that I can log online with my powerbook while away. I told the girl that I was from Australia, but she didnt seem to care and registered me as an American user.

Well recently when ITMS was made available to AOL members in the US, I decided to see it I could use it, and it worked, and so I was able to download music. Unfortunately after a few weeks my credit card no longer worked as the billing address of my AOL membership and the billing address of my credit card didnt match. So I now have a friend in the US who sends me gift certificates and that lets me continue to download.

As I said, I would much prefer to be a registered Aussie user and do it all legit, but Im still paying for the music so im not stealing the music. Its the greed of the record companies thats holding everything up, so its their fault that I have to resort to this.

I realise giving out all my details on the net here has made me a sitting duck to lose my access to the ITMS and if that happens so be it. It will only happen because of the greed of others, not because of my willingness to pay for downloading music.

I dont think that could get you in too much trouble Walexx since you did have a US account and billing address which is all that is asked for and you are legitimately paying for downloaded music. All I can say is You lucky guy!

Us kiwis are unable to by from Destra music online for the same reasons. It is going to be interesting to see how the availablity of music works on iTMS when it finally becomes available. I would expect that there would be songs that I would want to by from other countries that may not necesarily be available on the NZ market but available on iTMS UK for example... will have to see how that pans out.

On the other hand in terms of .99c US a track. Since the US dollar is traded internationally and all other currencies currently convert either up or down depending on the strength of the Green Back. For example if your travelling through Indonesia (Bali markets) and buying some shoes or a shirt they will tell you that it is 2.50US or 75 Baht (I dont know what the name of the the local Indonesian currency is ) and you negotiate from there. So for .99 cent tracks on iTMS they should go for the equivalent in Francs or DM or Sterling which would not necessarily be .99P unless of course Apple puts a premium on its European iTMS which I gather they currently do for Apple UK etc.

I can understand that the back end IT billing systems would vary between countries compared to what Apple uses which is obviously something Apple is having to set up so that they can be universal through out. I know accounting taxation and auditing systems and processes vary between counties as do the finacial times of the year when end of year finacial reporting has to be done by global corporates.

[winmacguy]

Originally posted by Dippo
Maybe we should create an iTunes for that doesn't involve the Record Companies. Artists could just upload their songs for a small fee, and everybody could download them. The artist could be paid on a per download basis.

This makes much more sense then how it is done now.

Maybe that could be iTMS V2.0:D

[rjwill246]

Originally posted by whocares


The biggest problems would be different tax rates between different contries and different currencies (the UK, one of the biggest markets, still uses Sterling Pounds...). Remember, only 12 of the 15 countries (soon to be 25) use the Euro.

Another problem is users purchasing music from another country. For eg. a French user buying in Germany. Although this is legal and the whole point of the free market, this will most likely piss off the music companies :rolleyes:

Alright everyone: go read this post. What he says is an excellent summary of the whole problem. All these issues have been clearly stated in many other in depth anaylses of this whole mess.

Summary: Apple is not to blame for a modicum of the problem. Music companies and government regulations (that includes taxes) are entirely responsible for all folk outside the US not having the ITMS.

[splashman]

Originally posted by rdowns
His speech after losing in Iowa is now known as the Blue Screen of Political Death.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call it "The Blue Scream of Political Death"?

:)

[ThomasJefferson]

Quick! Is it too late to blame this on the French too?

[splashman]

Originally posted by numediaman
And as someone who drank a gorgeous bottle of Cote Rotie tonight, I say God Bless the French.

Hmmm. "God bless" a country who officially denies his existence, and wants to ban the public display of any religious symbols?

Not trying to pick a fight -- I just thought the choice of words was funny, in a tragic sorta way . . .

[singletrack]

Originally posted by rjwill246
Alright everyone: go read this post. What he says is an excellent summary of the whole problem. All these issues have been clearly stated in many other in depth anaylses of this whole mess.

Summary: Apple is not to blame for a modicum of the problem. Music companies and government regulations (that includes taxes) are entirely responsible for all folk outside the US not having the ITMS.

Bull.

It's got nothing to do with exchange rates or taxes in each European state or even record companies in each restricting music sales to a territory.

1) It's not rocket science to implement a shopping cart system that presents a price in multiple currencies and taxes. Websites do this day in, day out. Go look at Amazon for instance. Different prices and taxes in each zone.

2) If you know the country the user is in from their billing address, you can restrict content to that area. This is already done for the USA with iTMS. I guess they need extra staff writing country specific editorial so European's don't get US rubbish like Country Music, but how hard is that to do? Hey, just banning any artist with names like 'Garth' or hyphenated first names like 'Billy-Bob' and 'Betty-Lou' gets rid of most of the rubbish. ;-)

I don't know why Apple aren't releasing their Euro iTMS country by country as they get agreements with each record company and area but technical or geographical issues are not it. There are already a number of online music stores that are available in several European countries such as Microsoft's OD2.com

They sensibly took a pragmatic approach and instead of waiting for a Europe wide agreement, have been adding countries and artists as they go and have been online since last August. Apple are taking a big risk waiting.

[whocares]

Originally posted by splashman
Hmmm. "God bless" a country who officially denies his existence, and wants to ban the public display of any religious symbols?

Not trying to pick a fight -- I just thought the choice of words was funny, in a tragic sorta way . . .

Let's not turn this into a political discussion. Especially with this very sensitive issue. Go "not pick" a fight about this in the Political/War forums. I would be more than pleased to discuss this with you. :rolleyes:

-singletrack
You raise an interesting question there. I think an answer could be found in my previous post: bying music from a different country. If Apple wants to cut a real sweet deal with the record companies, they need to get it right.

Opening a store in say France, and France only, will allow users from the EU to purchase the music too, even from countries where Apple hasen't yet secured a deal. I think that would potentially piss off the record industry.

Also, European music industries are cranking up against illegal downloads, so this may be slowing the process...

[singletrack]

Originally posted by whocares
You raise an interesting question there. I think an answer could be found in my previous post: bying music from a different country. If Apple wants to cut a real sweet deal with the record companies, they need to get it right.

Opening a store in say France, and France only, will allow users from the EU to purchase the music too, even from countries where Apple hasen't yet secured a deal. I think that would potentially piss off the record industry.

The whole point behind the EU is free trade between member states. It's illegal for a company to refuse to sell an item to a purchaser from another member state.

If I, in the UK, wanted to buy a CD from France or Germany then I'm perfectly entitled to do so and the tax is paid at the rate of the country I purchase it from. I've done this a couple of times already for some artists that I can't get in the UK.

The problem though is that each country has it's own record companies or divisions with their own music that are important to it. What's the point in a European store if all the music was German? There are almost no German records sold in the UK because we generally don't like German music. I'd guess the same would be true of each country with the possible exception being English language bands as English is a more common second language.

I just think that Apple trying to go Europe wide is a daft strategy and others are beating them to important markets by hitting at a country wide level first.

[numediaman]

I think splashman needs to go buy himself a Dell.

I choose not to hate the French. (Any place that grows grapes can't be all bad. I keep that in mind everytime I speak to my sister -- who lives in Texas.:eek: )

[whocares]

Originally posted by singletrack
If I, in the UK, wanted to buy a CD from France or Germany then I'm perfectly entitled to do so and the tax is paid at the rate of the country I purchase it from. I've done this a couple of times already for some artists that I can't get in the UK.

I fully understand and agree. But my point is the Record companies don't want this and are thus giving Apple a hard time.

[whocares]

Originally posted by mhouse
1. Europe is not a united region, they don't have a common language, common federal system, and only recently (and partially) have they developed a common currency.

Alleluia!
Finally someone from across the pond who understands Europe :p

[whooleytoo]

Originally posted by mhouse
1. Europe is not a united region, they don't have a common language, common federal system, and only recently (and partially) have they developed a common currency.

I don't think language is much of an issue; almost every app in OSX is localized on release. And the song titles themselves shouldn't need to be localized, I'd imagine.

The currency could be a problem, if Apple charged 99 (euro) cents per song, then the euro plunged against the dollar or the pound, would they have take the hit? Then again, they already face this problem selling through their various online stores.

[whocares]

Originally posted by whooley
The currency could be a problem, if Apple charged 99 (euro) cents per song, then the euro plunged against the dollar or the pound, would they have take the hit? Then again, they already face this problem selling through their various online stores.

Which brings up a new question: does Apple really care about the dollar/euro rate? They licensing the music from European companies/branches, thus they should be paying in Euros and selling in Euros. It's not like hardware, you know, 'real' stuff that has to be bought in foreign countries and shipped around, it's intellectual property (although I feel that most of the stuff isn't so intellectual anymore :rolleyes: ).

[splashman]

Originally posted by numediaman
I think splashman needs to go buy himself a Dell.

I choose not to hate the French. (Any place that grows grapes can't be all bad. I keep that in mind everytime I speak to my sister -- who lives in Texas.:eek: )

Go buy a Dell yourself. I merely mentioned an ironic juxtaposition. I don't hate the French any more than I hate you. I'm just happy I don't live there. One can express a preference, and disagree without hating, correct?

[wilco]

Originally posted by splashman
Hmmm. "God bless" a country who officially denies his existence, and wants to ban the public display of any religious symbols?

Not trying to pick a fight -- I just thought the choice of words was funny, in a tragic sorta way . . .

The only thing tragic is your pathetic need to let everyone know your religious views.

Isn't your "faith" enough? Shut the ***** up.

[splashman]

Originally posted by wilco
The only thing tragic is your pathetic need to let everyone know your religious views.

Isn't your "faith" enough? Shut the ***** up.

Heh heh. Gotta love it.

[Rower_CPU]

This flamefest is over. Make sure you all have read the rules (http://forums.macrumors.com/announcement.php?s=&forumid=4) before posting again.