VP debate thread... [Archive]

scotthayes

Oct 2, 2008, 09:03 PM

Can't believe I'm up at 2am

"Can I call you Joe" :rolleyes:

Oh, and here's the VP drinking game.

* references how you can see Russia from Alaska and calls it "experience"

* winks or gives a thumbs up to the audience

* says a world leader's name, two drinks if it's pronounced correctly.

* says any of these words/phrases: Alaska, Bridge to Nowhere, job creation, Washington elite/establishment, media elite, corporate greed, pitbull, lipstick, or maverick

* leaves off a trailing "g" - takin', leavin', changin', etc.

* Any time Palin answers a question, and someone at your party blurts out "WTF is she talking about?"

* When Palin claims that Washington's problems can be solved by small town know how and common sense: Drink a Labatts Blue as you read up on how to become a Canadian citizen.
(BTW, Wasilla is the "meth capital of Alaska")

* When Palin claims she said "Thanks but no thanks" to the Bridge to Nowhere: Demand a new drink from your hosts, say "thanks but no thanks," and then when no one's looking, take it anyway, then claim you never wanted it.

* When Palin recounts putting the governor's jet on eBay: Auction off a beer to your friends

* When Palin insists that governing a small town in Alaska is in fact experience: Give your friend a shot glass of beer when he/she asks for a pint and insist it's the same thing.

* When Palin talks about being the most popular governor in the country: Go to a room by yourself, realize you're the most popular person in the room, then finish your drink.

* For every sentence that makes no sense, drink. Twice for paragraph-length nonsequiturs, eg. "That's why I say I, like every American I'm speaking with, we're ill about this position that we have been put in where it is the taxpayers looking to bailout. But ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health care reform that is needed to help shore up the economy - Helping the - Oh, it's got to be about job creation too. Shoring up our economy and putting it back on the right track. So health care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions and tax relief for Americans. And trade, we've got to see trade as opportunity, not as a competitive scary thing. But 1 in 5 jobs being created in the trade sector today. We've got to look at that as more opportunity. All those things under the umbrella of job creation. This bailout is a part of that." DRINK, BABY, DRINK. (Yeah, I know that's really Tina Fey's impression of her, but still...)

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:04 PM

Ugh, trying to get the Flip4Mac client.

She asked him if she could call him Joe, nice move :D

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:07 PM

Ummm .... oversight? ummm.... hello? i thought she is for no regulation?

Suspended the campaign?! :eek:

CorvusCamenarum

Oct 2, 2008, 09:09 PM

Ugh, trying to get the Flip4Mac client.

She asked him if she could call him Joe, nice move :D

Probably planned in advance, but hopefully we won't end up with a 90 page thread about it. ;)

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:09 PM

Probably planned in advance, but hopefully we won't end up with a 90 page thread about it. ;)

No, we will redo that for the "American worker", "Maverick", etc. ;)

Ok, I am starting to think she is for regulation, which party is she working for again?

MBX

Oct 2, 2008, 09:10 PM

WTF.

They're reading from cards and all seems like scripted. They knew the answers upfront? Both are constantly looking down at the cards.

Am i missing something?

Oh and Palin definitely has the biggest american flag pin i've seen.

scotthayes

Oct 2, 2008, 09:11 PM

who the hell is this "Joe/Jo six-pack" and what about all those "Joe/Jo Beer Guts"

aethelbert

Oct 2, 2008, 09:14 PM

Oh and Palin definitely has the biggest american flag pin i've seen.
The BBC's footnotes are blocking her pin. I wanna see it.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:16 PM

WTF!!! Did she say she didn't want to follow the debate rules? :eek:

scotthayes

Oct 2, 2008, 09:19 PM

I didn't know she was a mayor and a governor :D

Any one got a clue what question they are answering, it isn't the one asked by the moderator.

Ugg

Oct 2, 2008, 09:27 PM

WTF!!! Did she say she didn't want to follow the debate rules? :eek:

Yep, she sure did. She obviously thinks she's above it all.

She just spent a minute braying about her success in Alaska and totally avoided the question about what she would cut from the budget. And then went on about how regulations are needed. WTF!!!And then said she'd only been in the race for five weeks and had so far made no promises.

dual64bit

Oct 2, 2008, 09:28 PM

How does the qualities as a mayor correlate to the qualities needed as a VP?

My dad could have been the mayor of small town alaska, does that make him a good candidate as vp?

scotthayes

Oct 2, 2008, 09:30 PM

What the *******. Her answer to everything seems to be about energy.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:31 PM

$700 billion for energy is BS.

Our top oil partners:
1) Canada
2) Mexico
3) Venezuela
4) Nigeria

There is no such thing as ENERGY INDEPENDENCE. We are a global economy, EVERYBODY and everything is tied.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:31 PM

What the *******. Her answer to everything seems to be about energy.

No, her history in Alaska is the answer to everything.

avigalante

Oct 2, 2008, 09:31 PM

Energy?!

She just dodged the question - completely!

Ugg

Oct 2, 2008, 09:32 PM

How many times has she said "energy independent" so far?

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:33 PM

She doesn't want to deal with the causes, only the symptoms? :confused:

NT1440

Oct 2, 2008, 09:33 PM

CalBoy

Oct 2, 2008, 09:34 PM

Well 30 minutes in and so far no major gaffes.

With the way the McCain camp has been spinning her all week, this means people will say she "won" the debate. :rolleyes:

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:34 PM

scotthayes

Oct 2, 2008, 09:34 PM

How many times has she said "energy independent" so far?

I can't count that high :D

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:35 PM

Clean green natural gas? :)

Senator "Obiden?!?!" :eek:

Lord Blackadder

Oct 2, 2008, 09:36 PM

Oh ****, she said nuke-U-lar. :rolleyes::mad:

Like master, like servant.

Senator "Obiden?!?!" :eek:

I prefer Joebama.

She is dancing around a little on the gay rights stuff...

freeny

Oct 2, 2008, 09:36 PM

Cnn has a cool graph that is tapped to an audience of Reps, Dems and Independents that lets you know if they are reacting positively or negatively to the answers

Ugg

Oct 2, 2008, 09:37 PM

Clean green natural gas? :)

Senator "Obiden?!?!" :eek:

Unbelievable!

Does she think that because he's closer to Ireland than she is that he's Irish?

aethelbert

Oct 2, 2008, 09:37 PM

She just dodged the question - completely!
She? Or they?

freeny

Oct 2, 2008, 09:37 PM

Well 30 minutes in and so far no major gaffes.

With the way the McCain camp has been spinning her all week, this means people will say she "won" the debate. :rolleyes:

I will accept "survived" the debate

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:37 PM

She? Or they?

I am sure they both are doing dodging, but she said "i'm instead going to talk about ..." :D

NT1440

Oct 2, 2008, 09:39 PM

i think its sad that no one supports gay marriage... is the country still that discriminate?

sad.

freeny

Oct 2, 2008, 09:39 PM

Glad to hear she will allow same sex couples visit each other in the hospital.

Anuba

Oct 2, 2008, 09:40 PM

ive only been watching for ten minutes or so. So far it seems like shes been taught not to look a fool. Her answers so far still have no substance, but shes no all over the board yet.

It scars me that she might be a good actress.
Yep. As I suspected, she's actually doing well so far. It's semi-scripted in that she's been pumped full of prepackaged answers, and as long she plays safe, she'll ride this one out.

4 out of 6 analysts on CNN have her as the clear winner so far, and the voters in Ohio who are rating debate performances in realtime generally give her higher points. Especially the independents.

avigalante

Oct 2, 2008, 09:41 PM

She? Or they?

Point taken; but see below -

I am sure they both are doing dodging, but she said "i'm instead going to talk about ..." :D

Yep.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:41 PM

woo hoo! We are back to pre-surge numbers ... umm ... hold on ... so we are back to that?

Dang it, i need to go pee, but don't want to miss the action! :eek: :p

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:43 PM

She just got stumped and had to read from a card? :eek:

Lord Blackadder

Oct 2, 2008, 09:43 PM

i think its sad that no one supports gay marriage... is the country still that discriminate?

Biden said he supported gay civil unions, Palin said she would tolerate them.

NT1440

Oct 2, 2008, 09:44 PM

oh here we go, victory is the important thing in Iraq. We are we so wrapped up in honor? The honorable thing would be to stop the madness we created.

Anuba

Oct 2, 2008, 09:44 PM

Oops... and we're onto foreign policy, and suddenly the independents rating on CNN are giving Biden a curve that's through the roof while giving Palin two thumbs down.

MBX

Oct 2, 2008, 09:45 PM

But people! They're reading from cards!!!

WTF!

Do you honestly believe she'd be that well-spoken?

Can anyone explain to me why they're reading off from cards? Is this pre-scripted?

scotthayes

Oct 2, 2008, 09:45 PM

She has been very very well prepped.

NT1440

Oct 2, 2008, 09:45 PM

Biden said he supported gay civil unions, Palin said she would tolerate them.

No im not talking about that civil union crap. If we are going to even use the civil union label then all marriage should be called that in stead of just homosexual ones.

Lord Blackadder

Oct 2, 2008, 09:47 PM

Can anyone explain to me why they're reading off from cards? Is this pre-scripted?

They have notes, and have been prepped to deal with the expected topics, but nothing's "scripted".

To be fair, this debate is less scripted than any "reality" show (which isn't saying all that much :D).

If we are going to even use the civil union label then all marriage should be called that in stead of just homosexual ones.

I agree. But I'd rather be able to get all couples equal treatment than get over-concerned about what we call it.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:47 PM

Can someone tell Biden that "madrasah" means school? :eek:

Misquoting Ahmadenijad? calling a foreign leader all them names? Castro brothers? wow, that is one way to change the word.

Nativi-tay?

freeny

Oct 2, 2008, 09:48 PM

But people! They're reading from cards!!!

WTF!

Do you honestly believe she'd be that well-spoken?

Can anyone explain to me why they're reading off from cards? Is this pre-scripted?

The rules to this debate were that they would know the talking points before hand. This was mandatory from the McCain camp.

So yes, they were allowed to prep for questions that although they did not know the specific question, they did know the subject.

Ugg

Oct 2, 2008, 09:48 PM

ahkmadinuhjad???????

yojitani

Oct 2, 2008, 09:48 PM

Can someone tell Palin that Iran and Iraq are not I-ran and I-rack!!

Incidentally, this isn't a debate. The two candidates aren't even communicating.

detz

Oct 2, 2008, 09:48 PM

nuculear,nuculear,nuculear,nuculear,nuculear :D:(:confused::eek:

Anuba

Oct 2, 2008, 09:49 PM

But people! They're reading from cards!!!

WTF!

Do you honestly believe she'd be that well-spoken?

Can anyone explain to me why they're reading off from cards? Is this pre-scripted?
They probably brought short lists of talking points, but it's not scripted as such.

Sometimes they're reading from notes they wrote down while the other one was speaking.

Clearly, though, foreign policy issues make her very nervous.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:50 PM

She wants to engage with diplomacy? but not talk to anybody?

They hate America? no ma'am, ********* up American foreign policy.

PlaceofDis

Oct 2, 2008, 09:50 PM

so just because people don't like us we can't meet them and talk to them?

thats called being diplomatic. its needed more.

CorvusCamenarum

Oct 2, 2008, 09:51 PM

nuculear,nuculear,nuculear,nuculear,nuculear :D:(:confused::eek:

They're both mispronouncing things, but I am hearing it more from Palin.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:51 PM

Biden, we only listen to one "ally", Israel.

We hate Spain too :p

edit:
Holocaust?
Please name ONE thing Israel has done for the US? Thanks.
Peace-seeking?

I think I should stop listening. :rolleyes:

avigalante

Oct 2, 2008, 09:53 PM

Can someone tell Biden that "madrasah" means school? :eek:

+1

'Madrasah' is the term used for religious school.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:54 PM

+1

'Madrasah' is the term used for religious school.

actually it just means "school", however, in this context you are correct.

Of course, in those poor areas where education is neglected by the state, it is the same. Just like Catholic School :)

thejadedmonkey

Oct 2, 2008, 09:54 PM

Biden, we only listen to one "ally", Israel.

We hate Spain too :p

That's only because they don't have bagels or peanutbutter :p

And Israel's given us the Core 2 Duo that's powering your mac :)

fivepoint

Oct 2, 2008, 09:55 PM

oh here we go, victory is the important thing in Iraq. We are we so wrapped up in honor? The honorable thing would be to stop the madness we created.

Victory isn't important? Leaving Iraq stable with a strong self-sufficient government isn't important? Leaving Iraq capable of defending itself from outsiders and insiders who seek the destruction of the state isn't important?

I'm a bit unsure how you think simply "stopping the madness" cold-turkey would be best for the Iraqis... :confused:

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:55 PM

That's only because they don't have bagels or peanutbutter :p

And Israel's given us the Core 2 Duo that's powering your mac :)

Hehehe, yes, Nehalim, etc. ;)

I'm glad they both love Israel, God forbid one of them strays from the path. :rolleyes:

Ugg

Oct 2, 2008, 09:57 PM

She's really trashed bushco.

Lord Blackadder

Oct 2, 2008, 09:57 PM

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:58 PM

Last time I checked, North Korea is using nukes as a deterrent to American aggression. So I guess we and NK have the same doctrine.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 09:59 PM

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:01 PM

Can someone remind her that those leaders in Afghanistan have been "doing things" that have not worked there since like 2001? :rolleyes:

avigalante

Oct 2, 2008, 10:02 PM

actually it just means "school", however, in this context you are correct.

Of course, in those poor areas where education is neglected by the state, it is the same. Just like Catholic School :)

Indeed I was referring to the term in contextual means.

avigalante

Oct 2, 2008, 10:04 PM

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:05 PM

I never thought I'd hear someone admit this...

Have you not been reading these forums? ;)

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:07 PM

How does John know how to win the war when he has been voting with Bush all the time?

Because he was a POW? :confused:

PlaceofDis

Oct 2, 2008, 10:07 PM

and the POW card has been played.

avigalante

Oct 2, 2008, 10:09 PM

and the POW card has been played.

...to the 10th degree; incredibly desperate.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:10 PM

Palin should say "yesss!!!" me president ... mowahahahaha. :p

We are all mavericks, we agree to disagree? so you guys are not on the same page?

Government regulation again?

Wasila main street? chains on the tires?

thejadedmonkey

Oct 2, 2008, 10:11 PM

...to the 10th degree; incredibly desperate.

Yeah.. but I feel like she's doing a better job.:confused:

Lord Blackadder

Oct 2, 2008, 10:11 PM

If she says "maverick" one more freaking time....

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:11 PM

Has she been anywhere other than Wasila? :confused:

Dog what?

dual64bit

Oct 2, 2008, 10:12 PM

John McCain doesn't disagree with anything from Bush, that is exactly right. Does the american's like bush? The same answer should be used to vote.

Palin wants to "bang bang" shoot 'em up with joe six pack. I think she didn't graduate high school.

scotthayes

Oct 2, 2008, 10:13 PM

"Here's a shout out!" is this a rock concert?

dual64bit

Oct 2, 2008, 10:13 PM

No Child left behind.. did that really work, think about it, think about it...

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:13 PM

More money for education, more regulation, etc.

Ummm, who's ticket is she running on??

Ugg

Oct 2, 2008, 10:13 PM

What does she think this is? Does she realize that she's running for the VP of the United States and not the school board of Wasila?

If she thinks she's going to pull in any votes for giving the third grade extra credit, she's bonkers.

PlaceofDis

Oct 2, 2008, 10:13 PM

nice shout out there. :rolleyes:

avigalante

Oct 2, 2008, 10:14 PM

A shout-out?!

How unprofessional!

NT1440

Oct 2, 2008, 10:14 PM

oh jeez trying to play off the what does a VP do "joke".

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:15 PM

oh jeez trying to play off the what does a VP do "joke".

That was funny :D

Ugg

Oct 2, 2008, 10:16 PM

She just played the subservient housewife, big mistake.

aethelbert

Oct 2, 2008, 10:16 PM

"Here's a shout out!" is this a rock concert?
No, it's a debate. Where nothing really gets debated. Haven't you ever heard of American politics?

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:17 PM

She lost me. Is she saying that the VP is free from oversight?

dual64bit

Oct 2, 2008, 10:18 PM

I thought she was saying something about her needing to go pick her kids up from soccer practice. She has no reason to be there, she reminds me of a first grade student at a six grade spelling bee. Does she really think she blends in?

Anuba

Oct 2, 2008, 10:19 PM

What's with the winking? Is she in high school?

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:20 PM

Experience :D

Explain to her that Alaska is far from the heartland.

You pay for the tuition bills with your per diem maam.

Oh, and universal healthcare would help you with health insurance.

The US as a force of good in the world. Yaaaaaay.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:20 PM

What's with the winking? Is she in high school?

You missed the inside joke. ;)

.Andy

Oct 2, 2008, 10:22 PM

Us mavericks...

thejadedmonkey

Oct 2, 2008, 10:22 PM

If she says "maverick" one more freaking time....

You now have permission to scream. twice. :p

Lord Blackadder

Oct 2, 2008, 10:22 PM

Did Biden just choke up talking about his kids? or was he just burping up the FunYuns he ate before the debate? :D

You now have permission to scream. twice. :p

Bloody Hell.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:23 PM

She said McCain is the man we need to "leave". I 100% agree with her. :D

NT1440

Oct 2, 2008, 10:23 PM

so i suppose maverick is going to be the buzz word for the next week......:rolleyes:

can you really be a maverick simply by calling yourself a maverick?:rolleyes:

atszyman

Oct 2, 2008, 10:24 PM

I prefer MIT's debate drinking game (http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N43/drinkinggame.html).

Blue Team Rules

¶ For every mention of Scranton, Pennsylvania: Take a sip.

¶ When Biden begins the “I take the train home everyday story” being drinking. Don’t stop ’till he finishes.

¶ When Biden questions Palin’s inexperience: Drink something you’ve never had before

¶ When Biden makes an obvious gaffe: Spill your neighbor’s drink

¶ When Biden uses X words when Y will do: Drink X-Y seconds

¶ When Biden patronizes or self identifies with the working class: Down some brew (Bonus points if you use Miller Highlife)

¶ When Biden lambastes Washington Insiders: Make a toast to his 35 years of experience in the United States Senate

The Joe Biden checklist. If he mentions all of the following, finish your drinks: Blue Collar, Golden Parachute, Little Guy, Washington Insider, Working Class, Clean

Red Team Rules

¶ Every time Palin cites Alaska’s proximity to Russia as “foreign policy experience”: Take a shot of vodka

¶ When Palin claims she said “Thanks but no thanks” to the Bridge to Nowhere: Demand a new drink from your hosts, say “thanks but no thanks,” and then when no one’s looking, take it anyway, then claim you never wanted it.

¶ When Palin recounts putting the governor’s jet on eBay: Auction off a beer to your friends

¶ When Palin insists that governing a small town in Alaska is in fact experience: Give your friend a shot glass of beer when he/she asks for a pint and insist it’s the same thing.

¶ When Palin points out that Biden thought Obama was too inexperienced for the job: Finish your drink and say, “Oh Snap!” If you’re a democrat, follow this by crying.

¶ When Palin claims that Washington’s problems can be solved by small town know how and common sense: Drink a Labatt Blue as you read up on how to become a Canadian citizen.

¶ When Palin talks about being the most popular governor in the country: Go to a room by yourself, realize you’re the most popular person in the room, then finish your drink.

The Sarah Palin checklist. If she mentions all of the following, finish your drinks: Bush Doctrine, Snow Machine, Moose, Lipstick, Hockey Mom, Family Values

And the CNN opinion tracker "Maverick" doesn't seem to play well when Palin repeats it repeatedly, again, and again, all redundant like... Maverick.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:24 PM

so i suppose maverick is going to be the buzz word for the next week......:rolleyes:

can you really be a maverick simply by calling yourself a maverick?:rolleyes:

I dunno let me try it.

I am a maverick.

Yep, seems to work. :cool:

avigalante

Oct 2, 2008, 10:24 PM

She said McCain is the man we need to "leave". I 100% agree with her. :D

HA! I was about to say the same; and I agree, he needs to leave.

Anuba

Oct 2, 2008, 10:24 PM

You missed the inside joke. ;)
Joke... or jokes? She winked to the camera like ten times.

Does she really think she can win voters with that "sucky sucky five dolla" winking?

newappleboy

Oct 2, 2008, 10:25 PM

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:27 PM

Did she answer this current question? :confused:

Joke... or jokes? She winked to the camera like ten times.

Does she really think she can win voters with that "sucky sucky five dolla" winking?

I dunno, I missed all her jokes. :p

NT1440

Oct 2, 2008, 10:28 PM

whoa did u guys hear?? ishaters a maverick now too! that means he fills the requirements for president.:rolleyes:

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:29 PM

whoa did u guys hear?? ishaters a maverick now too! that means he fills the requirements for president.:rolleyes:

LMAO! :D

I choose Tina Fey as my VP. ;)

avigalante

Oct 2, 2008, 10:29 PM

I dunno let me try it.

I am a maverick.

Yep, seems to work. :cool:

whoa did u guys hear?? ishaters a maverick now too! that means he fills the requirements for president.:rolleyes:

'Maverick he is not' :cool:

at least on the important issues

newappleboy

Oct 2, 2008, 10:30 PM

I prefer MIT's debate drinking game (http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N43/drinkinggame.html).

[snip awesome drinking game rules]

And the CNN opinion tracker "Maverick" doesn't seem to play well when Palin repeats it repeatedly, again, and again, all redundant like... Maverick.

If you add to that "take a drink whenever one candidate ignores a question proposed by the moderator to address a comment their opponent made, then uses all their time on that instead of the question at hand", you'd be drunk within the first 10 minutes of the debate. :p

fivepoint

Oct 2, 2008, 10:31 PM

Just popping in real quick to give my two cents. I've watched off and on tonight, never for very long. I watched the first half hour and decided that was more than enough. I don't want to pull conversation from this thread because I definitely enjoy the MR conversation aspect, but I also blogged about it (see signature) and would love further insight from others there if you take the few moments out to read. :cool:

I suggest you don't base who you vote for based on how they pronounce the word Nuclear. And for the record, pronunciations of words is largely based on geography... not intelligence as you so profoundly suggested. ;)

Other than that, I agree about the squabbling and acting like children... but alas, this is the state of things. The situation is that the two parties are so similar any more... you're voting for A or a. They really need to get some third parties in these debates to make things a bit more interesting.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:31 PM

She will fight for average every day Americans ... who make over $250,000 a year ... yep ...

Protect freedom by reducing civil liberties.

Ok, she is reading a book now?

dual64bit

Oct 2, 2008, 10:32 PM

The book must be called "Mavericks"

scotthayes

Oct 2, 2008, 10:32 PM

well, she didn't completely screw up so I guess that's a debate win for her :rolleyes:

Iscariot

Oct 2, 2008, 10:32 PM

I'd vote for Maverick.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3852/111903-34571-maverick_large.jpg

Anuba

Oct 2, 2008, 10:33 PM

Well, as much as we dislike Palin around these parts, sadly I think the verdict will be "game changer", "triumphant comeback" etc. After all, people pretty much expected her to say something infinitely stupid, start crying and then throw up and pee her pants at the same time. Considering those rock bottom expectations, this was a stellar performance. She definitely connected with Joe Sixpack, especially if four of those six cans are empty.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:33 PM

well, she didn't completely screw up so I guess that's a debate win for her :rolleyes:

You set the bar very low eh? :D

I have to admit I expected Biden to not be able to respond to everything, but he did pretty well.

She repeated too many talking points, and didn't seem to respond to questions.

yojitani

Oct 2, 2008, 10:34 PM

Oh dear. What a sham that all was.

newappleboy

Oct 2, 2008, 10:34 PM

I suggest you don't base who you vote for based on how they pronounce the word Nuclear. And for the record, pronunciations of words is largely based on geography... not intelligence as you so profoundly suggested. ;)

Other than that, I agree about the squabbling and acting like children... but alas, this is the state of things. The situation is that the two parties are so similar any more... you're voting for A or a. They really need to get some third parties in these debates to make things a bit more interesting.

Thank you for the insight as to geography. Hadn't really considered that, but it's funny that she's from Alaska (far north) and Bush is from Texas (the deep south) and they both pronounce it the same.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:35 PM

Thank you for the insight as to geography. Hadn't really considered that, but it's funny that she's from Alaska (far north) and Bush is from Texas (the deep south) and they both pronounce it the same.

Actually I think he is a fake Texan, he came from New England.

Edit: wrong, he moved when he was 2.

dual64bit

Oct 2, 2008, 10:35 PM

Cleverboy

Oct 2, 2008, 10:35 PM

I can't believe it... Gwen Ifill wouldn't get up to shake Sarah Palin's hand!!!

~ CB

newappleboy

Oct 2, 2008, 10:36 PM

Actually I think he is a fake Texas, he came from New England.

You mean we Texans don't have to claim him?!? *rejoices*

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:37 PM

I can't believe it... Gwen Ifill wouldn't get up to shake Sarah Palin's hand!!!

~ CB

Could it be that "i will not follow your rules" comment?

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:37 PM

You mean we Texans don't have to claim him?!? *rejoices*

Alas my friends who moved to Texas do. So looks like it's a 50/50 thing over there.

scotthayes

Oct 2, 2008, 10:37 PM

You set the bar very low eh? :D

I have to admit I expected Biden to not be able to respond to everything, but he did pretty well.

She repeated too many talking points, and didn't seem to respond to questions.

To be honest, the bar was so low it would have been impossible not to come out with a positive.

PlaceofDis

Oct 2, 2008, 10:38 PM

I can't believe it... Gwen Ifill wouldn't get up to shake Sarah Palin's hand!!!

~ CB

didn't get up for Biden either.

i thought i heard her say that she couldn't or something. :confused::confused:

Anuba

Oct 2, 2008, 10:40 PM

Far from stellar, like I said she's a first grader at a sx grader's spelling bee. She doesn't belong there.
Oh, in terms of competence she's a fish out of water. Sadly that isn't what matters. That folksy nature can win more idiot voters than you can count, and those are the guys who determine the outcome.

iShater

Oct 2, 2008, 10:44 PM

Well, one thing for sure, AIPAC is very pleased with both performances. :rolleyes:

avigalante

Oct 2, 2008, 10:44 PM

Oh, in terms of competence she's a fish out of water. Sadly that isn't what matters. That folksy nature can win more idiot voters than you can count, and those are the guys who determine the outcome.

I agree; remember Americans elected George Bush primarily because they could 'have a beer with him'...

Lord Blackadder

Oct 2, 2008, 10:44 PM

Hopefully Palin's folksy speaking style will get old quick for most voters.

I thought Biden did well.

fivepoint

Oct 2, 2008, 10:47 PM

I agree; remember Americans elected George Bush primarily because they could 'have a beer with him'.

A bigger reason may have been that the alternative was a elitist arrogant gas bag who one of the most liberal members of the senate with known socialist ideologies.

Assuming you're talking about 2004... ;)

newappleboy

Oct 2, 2008, 10:47 PM

Hopefully Palin's folksy speaking style will get old quick for most voters.

I thought Biden did well.

It always amuses me when the wealthy associate themselves with the middle-class Americans. How long ago was it that she was in my shoes? If ever? lol Her accent is another thing entirely, but that amused me well. The references to soccer moms and all that was just a big push to gain sympathy with the everyday voter. We'll see who falls for it.

KingYaba

Oct 2, 2008, 10:48 PM

Actually I think he is a fake Texan, he came from New England.

The phrase is "all hat and no cattle."

I thought Mrs. Palin didn't botch the debate, but many of her answers lacked substance. At the beginning of the debate she was pulling out all the talking points from the McCain campaign. Senator Biden, on the other hand, I disagree vehemently with most if not all of his wacky economics at least gave full answers. Sen. Biden won in my opinion.

fivepoint

Oct 2, 2008, 10:49 PM

Hopefully Palin's folksy speaking style will get old quick for most voters.

I thought Biden did well.

I also thought Biden did well. He, and Palin, are much more powerful when they stop attacking the other side with voting records and speak more from the gut. Telling us what they think from deep down, in their heart about specific issues. It gives me a much better feeling of their character, and less of a sick stomach hearing them repeat talking points over and over.

3rdpath

Oct 2, 2008, 10:51 PM

Palin came across as a wide-eyed 12 year old running in a scholastic mock-election.

no need for specifics, just sheer " everything's gonna be just dog-gone peachy" perkiness.

fivepoint

Oct 2, 2008, 10:52 PM

It always amuses me when the wealthy associate themselves with the middle-class Americans. How long ago was it that she was in my shoes? If ever? lol Her accent is another thing entirely, but that amused me well. The references to soccer moms and all that was just a big push to gain sympathy with the everyday voter. We'll see who falls for it.

Do you know anything about her history? She has lived in VERY normal circumstances for the majority of her life. Only in the last 5-10 years has she started getting more wealthy than average. I honestly don't even care, I'm not voting for either of these tickets... but I wanted to make sure you knew this, so you didn't claim the same thing elsewhere.

There are plenty of things to pick on her about... but that isn't one of them. She is far more down-to-earth than 90% of politicians. She is far more middle-class than McCain, Obama, or Biden are.

Thomas Veil

Oct 2, 2008, 10:56 PM

I have to admit, Palin did better than I expected her to. She wasn't particularly good, but she did manage to avoid that deer-in-the-headlights look that Katie Couric knows so well.

She did, however, smile an awful lot, particularly at weird times. Biden did too, but Palin did it almost constantly, as if someone told her, "Remember now, smile!" without telling her when she was supposed to stop.

She also relied a lot on packaged answers. Again, Biden did it a bit too, but hers were typically vague and general, whereas Biden was in command of a lot of facts and figures. He certainly came across as more knowledgeable. Palin, OTOH, kept dodging questions. There must have been at least four or five questions Ifill asked her that had nothing to do with energy, but Palin kept circling back to that subject, because as we know, that's her comfort zone.

Given all the above, I'm surprised anybody except Republican partisans felt she "won" the debate. Biden came off a whole lot more experienced and intelligent.

Lord Blackadder

Oct 2, 2008, 10:58 PM

The main reason that the "folksy" approach doesn't work with me is that, let's face it, Congress is for all intents and purposes a millionaire's club. For these people to affect an "aw shucks" regular 'ol "joe sixpack" attitude comes across, to me (as a person with a tenth of their income), as false and out of touch.

It's insulting. I'd have much more respect for a politician who admits they're rich and doesn't try to shoehorn themselves into the middle class in order to claim some phony-baloney solidarity.

newappleboy

Oct 2, 2008, 11:00 PM

Do you know anything about her history? She has lived in VERY normal circumstances for the majority of her life. Only in the last 5-10 years has she started getting more wealthy than average. I honestly don't even care, I'm not voting for either of these tickets... but I wanted to make sure you knew this, so you didn't claim the same thing elsewhere.

There are plenty of things to pick on her about... but that isn't one of them. She is far more down-to-earth than 90% of politicians. She is far more middle-class than McCain, Obama, or Biden are.

I appreciate the clarification, and readily admit I know next to nothing about these candidates. My question was genuine, not sarcastic. Most politicians were either born into money, wed into money, or have had it for quite some time leading into running for any public office. She's definitely an exception and I won't argue that in the least. I mentioned in my blog about the debate that I've avoided keeping up with this kind of stuff for the exact reason of what happened tonight - you can get swept up in the bickering and lose sight of the big picture.

Cracked me up when one of the commentators after the debate said something to the effect of "you can't come away from this not having gained even more respect for both candidates", and I couldn't disagree more. :cool:

yg17

Oct 2, 2008, 11:01 PM

The most important moment of the night?

MSNBC got rick rolled!

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g122/yg17/photo-1-1.jpg

Anuba

Oct 2, 2008, 11:01 PM

I have to admit, Palin did better than I expected her to. She wasn't particularly good, but she did manage to avoid that deer-in-the-headlights look that Katie Couric knows so well.

She did, however, smile an awful lot, particularly at weird times. Biden did too, but Palin did it almost constantly, as if someone told her, "Remember now, smile!" without telling her when she was supposed to stop.

She also relied a lot on packaged answers. Again, Biden did it a bit too, but hers were typically vague and general, whereas Biden was in command of a lot of facts and figures. He certainly came across as more knowledgeable. Palin, OTOH, kept dodging questions. There must have been at least four or five questions Ifill asked her that had nothing to do with energy, but Palin kept circling back to that subject, because as we know, that's her comfort zone.
I agree with that analysis. She turned the folksy factor up to 11 and there was just a little too much winking and smiling going on (Tina Fey will have a field day with that).

It's too bad she did the Couric interviews first, otherwise she hadn't been this well prepped. There were some split seconds there, though, when it looked like she was going to crack. She was millimeters from making an @ss of herself on several occasions, but she managed to keep going.

Prof.

Oct 2, 2008, 11:02 PM

IMO, it was a draw - neither side won or lost.

Cleverboy

Oct 2, 2008, 11:03 PM

didn't get up for Biden either.
i thought i heard her say that she couldn't or something. :confused::confused: I'm just kidding... her ankle was broken preparing debate research material.

~ CB

Lord Blackadder

Oct 2, 2008, 11:04 PM

Given all the above, I'm surprised anybody except Republican partisans felt she "won" the debate. Biden came off a whole lot more experienced and intelligent.

What happened is that the Republicans changed the conditions under which Palin could claim victory.

Everybody knew that Biden had the tools to beat Palin; therefore the Republicans sought to lower the bar - as long as Palin avoided a repeat of the Couric interview in terms of hesitation and body language, it could be called a victory.

And so it happened.

IMO, it was draw - neither side won or lost.

As I see it, these debates are very hard to win, but relatively easy to lose. A draw is the default result when both candidates avoid gaffes.

ZachsMacDaddy

Oct 2, 2008, 11:05 PM

didn't get up for Biden either.

i thought i heard her say that she couldn't or something. :confused::confused:

Earlier there were some shots of her being brought on stage in a wheelchair because of an accident she had earlier this week.

She really couldn't get up, it was not a snub to Palin.

Abstract

Oct 2, 2008, 11:09 PM

So Biden made all the valid points, and Palin didn't **** up, and the debate is considered a draw? :confused:

ErikCLDR

Oct 2, 2008, 11:09 PM

Although I am supporting McCain, in my mind Biden did a much better job- he was more knowledgeable, more precise, and obviously a better debater. I think we all know that. However, to the average person, especially compared to Palin, he looked like an arrogant jerk. Just his demeanor and repeating of phrases as if we couldn't understand them, really did it. Not to mention it just seemed like he was frustrated in debating Palin, some one who has in 5 weeks time jumped from governor of Alaska to a VP candidate.

Palin I really think will draw people in because she seems like an ordinary person up there on the stage. I do think it would be absurd to see the conflicting "cultures" of a Washington Politician and Palin's little cutesy phrases and winks. That said I think she has the potential to become a good vice president.

All the news stations seem to be praising Palin, I think they're over doing it but I'm no expert. I guess she had to do what she had to do- reinforce McCains platform and make herself look like a worthy candidate.

newappleboy

Oct 2, 2008, 11:10 PM

IMO, it was a draw - neither side won or lost.

It's funny you should phrase it like that. I was just telling a friend earlier tonight that when it comes to things like this, neither party wins, one just tends to lose a little less.

donga

Oct 2, 2008, 11:17 PM

I can't believe it... Gwen Ifill wouldn't get up to shake Sarah Palin's hand!!!

~ CB

Could it be that "i will not follow your rules" comment?

didn't get up for Biden either.

i thought i heard her say that she couldn't or something. :confused::confused:

Gwen Ifill broke her ankle (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us:g/8-0&fp=48e574454cb51bff&ei=Y47lSJeUMY_6lQTEuO1E&url=http%3A//ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gU_vF8rFEcc1p-sK4_QND4MgdCUQD93HAM600&cid=1252745578&usg=AFQjCNHtENbfqjFITMDW8_BY6eFeh_8hKA) the other day. That's why she stayed in her chair and everyone else walked up to her.

newappleboy

Oct 2, 2008, 11:19 PM

Gwen Ifill broke her ankle (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us:g/8-0&fp=48e574454cb51bff&ei=Y47lSJeUMY_6lQTEuO1E&url=http%3A//ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gU_vF8rFEcc1p-sK4_QND4MgdCUQD93HAM600&cid=1252745578&usg=AFQjCNHtENbfqjFITMDW8_BY6eFeh_8hKA) the other day. That's why she stayed in her chair and everyone else walked up to her.

I could understand your tone if this was one of the VP candidates in question, but this was just the moderator. By no means big news that the nation would all hear about. I had no clue, but didn't really give it a second thought when she didn't stand either. I don't think this is a big deal that needs to turn into name calling.

Ugg

Oct 2, 2008, 11:22 PM

Palin I really think will draw people in because she seems like an ordinary person up there on the stage. I do think it would be absurd to see the conflicting "cultures" of a Washington Politician and Palin's little cutesy phrases and winks. That said I think she has the potential to become a good vice president.

That's an extremely elitist attitude.

The "ordinary" people ( did you actually mean to write "little people") are generally more intelligent than you give them credit for. The fact that she continually lost the thread of the question and that she had nothing other than limbaugh talking points to spew, shows that she's only good at rote memorization.

People know a good speaker when they hear one, and while her little winkies seemed to engage the audience, her "mavericks" and the fact that all she could talk about was Alaska, shows through.

She is not and will never be ready for public office.

Iscariot

Oct 2, 2008, 11:23 PM

The most important moment of the night?

MSNBC got rick rolled!

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g122/yg17/photo-1-1.jpg

That's the best thing I ever saw.

balamw

Oct 2, 2008, 11:31 PM

The "ordinary" people ( did you actually mean to write "little people") are generally more intelligent than you give them credit for. The fact that she continually lost the thread of the question and that she had nothing other than limbaugh talking points to spew, shows that she's only good at rote memorization.

Just like the presidential debate it seems that though many decided voters saw it as a tie, undecideds lean more towards Obama/Biden.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/02/biden-dominates-debate-ac_n_131455.html

I guess these ordinary people really can see through the non-answers and talking points. This at least measured by those undecideds who cliam to have made up their minds....

B

Peace

Oct 2, 2008, 11:33 PM

Biden gave answers.
Palin gave none.

That's the difference.

David G.

Oct 2, 2008, 11:39 PM

That's the best thing I ever saw.
Agree 100%

Aranince

Oct 2, 2008, 11:39 PM

Just like the presidential debate it seems that though many decided voters saw it as a tie, undecideds lean more towards Obama/Biden.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/02/biden-dominates-debate-ac_n_131455.html

I guess these ordinary people really can see through the non-answers and talking points. This at least measured by those undecideds who cliam to have made up their minds....

B

Huffpo? Rofl. Can't get more biased then that.

I thought both sides did excellent, I am leaning towards Biden a little if I had to choose a winner.

freeny

Oct 2, 2008, 11:41 PM

Just like the presidential debate it seems that though many decided voters saw it as a tie, undecideds lean more towards Obama/Biden.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/02/biden-dominates-debate-ac_n_131455.html

I guess these ordinary people really can see through the non-answers and talking points. This at least measured by those undecideds who cliam to have made up their minds....

B
The huffington post is a left leaning platform. while i like those results i will wait till the morning and get the average of all the results.

DakotaGuy

Oct 2, 2008, 11:51 PM

Well I think Palin did fine for the standards that are were set for her. If you look at her performance with a wider view then it was only a mediocre effort. She dodged many questions and stuck to her scripted talking points. I did not feel any more comfortable then before about her being one heart beat away from the Presidency. I felt that Joe Biden did fine. He had good answers and showed that he is ready to be President at any moment.

Cleverboy

Oct 2, 2008, 11:57 PM

I can't believe it... Gwen Ifill wouldn't get up to shake Sarah Palin's hand!!!I'm just kidding... her ankle was broken preparing debate research material.Gwen Ifill broke her ankle (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us:g/8-0&fp=48e574454cb51bff&ei=Y47lSJeUMY_6lQTEuO1E&url=http%3A//ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gU_vF8rFEcc1p-sK4_QND4MgdCUQD93HAM600&cid=1252745578&usg=AFQjCNHtENbfqjFITMDW8_BY6eFeh_8hKA) the other day. That's why she stayed in her chair and everyone else walked up to her.
While it may have no bearing on whether I'm an idiot, I would draw your attention to the thread I created yesterday:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=573295
--in which I noted:
Ifill recently made the news for breaking her ankle during an instance in which she was carrying exhorbitant amounts of debate prep material.I was engaging in satire, but like Palin and Biden, I suppose there are some jokes that don't go over so well. :) I'm not really a fan of Andy Kaufman, but every now and then I can't bring myself to draw clear lines of distinction.

~ CB

joepunk

Oct 3, 2008, 12:00 AM

That's an extremely elitist attitude.

The "ordinary" people ...

Don't you mean "Joe Six-Pack" ;) :eek:

hulugu

Oct 3, 2008, 12:03 AM

Both candidates are cooing about their "love" for Israel.

This is one of the most FUBAR things in US politics....

...no matter what political leanings you have, IF you are a US politician you are required to fawn over Israel. We keep putting all the responsibility of the Palestine question on the backs of the Palestinians, as if they are the only problem.

We also fail, when talking about Iran's nuke-u-lar program, to bring up the fact that Israel is the ONLY nuclear power in the Middle East, but that's OK....

Shh. We don't talk about Fight Club.

The fawning over Israel is outright bizarre sometimes. As is the notion that immediately upon successfully building a nuclear weapon, the Iranians will chuck it at Israel. The Iranians know, probably as well as the CIA, that the Israelis have the capability and will to strike back.

So Biden made all the valid points, and Palin didn't **** up, and the debate is considered a draw? :confused:

Yes. It's akin to watching a high school baseball team play against the Yankees. You know the Yankees are holding back, and yet because the little league team scores a few runs, you're supposed to consider it a draw.

hulugu

Oct 3, 2008, 12:09 AM

Don't you mean "Joe Six-Pack" ;) :eek:

It's funny, while Palin seems to think that "Joe Six-pack" is a mark of distinction, I've always understood the phrase to be a barb, similar to "unwashed masses" or "hoi polloi." You don't want to be "Joe Six-pack" or "Joe Blow" because he's a schmuck.

Thomas Veil

Oct 3, 2008, 12:09 AM

There were some split seconds there, though, when it looked like she was going to crack. She was millimeters from making an @ss of herself on several occasions, but she managed to keep going.You noticed that too, huh?

hulugu

Oct 3, 2008, 12:24 AM

Slate already has a number of articles and posts about the VP debates, but I thought this one (http://www.slate.com/id/2201510/) was most apropos:

So, Gov. Sarah Palin can speak spontaneously in complete and coherent sentences.
Let's judge her, then, as we would a presumptively seasoned and competent political leader. By that standard, on issues of foreign policy, she was outgunned by Sen. Joe Biden at every turn....

Finally, when Biden said the Bush administration's foreign policy has been an "abject failure," and proceeded to list the many ways in which that was so, Palin's only reply was to smile and say, "Enough playing the blame game." If Obama and Biden talk so much about change, she added (as if this were really a clever point), why do they spend so much time looking backward?
To which Biden replied, with uncharacteristic pith, "Past is prologue." And so it is. At another point, he noted, "Facts matter." And so they do....

joepunk

Oct 3, 2008, 12:25 AM

It's funny, while Palin seems to think that "Joe Six-pack" is a mark of distinction, I've always understood the phrase to be a barb, similar to "unwashed masses" or "hoi polloi." You don't want to be "Joe Six-pack" or "Joe Blow" because he's a schmuck.

Could she have meant Joe Six-Pack Abs :D

And yea, I find it very insulting that she was referring to people as a six-packer. Which I am not one.

Oh, wait. I did finish a six-packer while watching the debate. Cr*p, I am one :o :p

mgguy

Oct 3, 2008, 12:36 AM

I think Biden looked emotionally shaken by many of Palin's responses and retorts. He seemed to be stunned by her effectiveness and smooth delivery. He probably expected that she would just wilt in the presence of his self-assumed superior intellect. Didn't happen though.

hulugu

Oct 3, 2008, 12:38 AM

Could she have meant Joe Six-Pack Abs. And yea, I find it very insulting that she was referring to people as a six-packer. Which I am not one.

Oh, wait. I did finish a six-packer while watching the debate. Cr*p, I am one :o :p

But is your name really Joe?

Henceforth, I shall be known as Joe Whole-bottle-of-tequila.

I think Biden looked emotionally shaken by many of Palin's responses and retorts. He seemed to be stunned by her effectiveness and smooth delivery. He probably expected that she would just wilt in the presence of his self-assumed superior intellect. Didn't happen though.

I'll admit to being a complete partisan, but don't you think this comment might be framed by Palin-colored glasses.

mgguy

Oct 3, 2008, 01:05 AM

It's surprising that Biden didn't do better, considering his 36 years of exercising his debating skills in the Senate. He must have just been tired. :rolleyes:

CalBoy

Oct 3, 2008, 01:13 AM

Could it be that "i will not follow your rules" comment?
I've been searching far and wide but haven't been able to find a clip of that.

Would anyone please link it for me? :o Thanks. :)
It's surprising that Biden didn't do better, considering his 36 years of exercising his debating skills in the Senate. He must have just been tired. :rolleyes:

Make no mistake, if Biden had been facing an honorable female politician (the likes of which we find in Clinton or Maggie Thatcher), there would have been a real debate, as opposed to the prepackaged script we got to see play out today.

Biden had to hold is tongue on more than one occasion because if he had treated her as he would his peers in the Senate, people would have called him "harsh."

Sexism at its finest. :rolleyes:

63dot

Oct 3, 2008, 01:22 AM

They both exceeded expectations.

Biden didn't get too lengthy as he is known for and that was a victory for him.

Palin spoke in complete sentences and made arguments with a beginning, middle, and an end. That's great for a first timer on national television outside of the safety of a convention.

Biden was more on point and stuck with the topics and Palin dodged them and thus lost the debate. That being said, Palin was smooth in how she got off topic and was able to push the GOP agenda across in the most moderate sounding way to not offend anybody. She probably did better in this debate than anything we have heard her say before and it was the high point of her career. The context of going from small town mayor, to governor, to VP candidate and then hold one's composure in a high stakes debate is more than most could do on such amazingly short notice.

People expected Palin to be wiped out, but most national polls only gave it to Biden by a few points. Some gave it to Biden by a margin of 2 to 1, but I expected a total meltdown for Palin in the context of who she was and where she was.

It was like a prize fight with no clear knockout, but where Palin didn't land a single punch but somehow was standing at the end of the bell. But Biden didn't even break a sweat.

yojitani

Oct 3, 2008, 01:59 AM

It's surprising that Biden didn't do better, considering his 36 years of exercising his debating skills in the Senate. He must have just been tired. :rolleyes:

No. It wasn't a debate. It was worse than the soapbox platforms given to Obama and McCain. These 'appearances' should really be seen for what they are: an affront to democracy. If the demos is informed by manufactured half truths and unchallenged smears at every turn, it is no wonder so called democracies are 'governed' as they are.

mactastic

Oct 3, 2008, 02:25 AM

Cnn has a cool graph that is tapped to an audience of Reps, Dems and Independents that lets you know if they are reacting positively or negatively to the answers
I had to stop myself from watching that damn thing... it was almost hypnotic.

Anyway, interesting debate. As I predicted, Palin easily exceeded expectations. People expecting to see Biden seriously outclass her in this kind of situation were bound to be mistaken. She was well prepared, and was able to dodge any tricky questions and pivot back to familiar territory -- such as Alaska's energy policy, and her penchant for cutting taxes.

She was thoroughly classless when it came to Biden's kids though, although I suppose that could be chalked up to just not knowing Biden's story. Challenging Biden on raising kids was a stupid thing to do.

Biden handily won the debate on the merits, but Palin did what she needed to do -- which was prove that she isn't the Tina Fey caricature. No game-changing moments, which means that Team Obama comes out the winner by default.

I'm guessing that once we start seeing post-debate polling, the all-important independents will see Biden as the winner though.

balamw

Oct 3, 2008, 02:29 AM

The huffington post is a left leaning platform.

Huffpo? Rofl. Can't get more biased then that.

Duh.

In this case I posted the HuffPo link only as an aggregator of three such insta-polls of undecided voters run by CNN, CBS, and Fox News.

Personally, and as an Obama decided voter, I think Palin exceeded expectations and would not have expected the debate to sway an undecided voter. Then again, I listened to most of the debate on NPR in the car and did not see either candidate's demeanor until the last 20 minutes or so.

However, the initial results of the insta-polls seem very similar to those conducted during the first presidential debate, which were also a surprise to me, where ~20% of "undecideds" who watched the debate with CNN and CBS claimed to have left the debate "decided" for Obama, and fewer of them ~5-10% "decided" for McCain.

This does NOT seem to be good news for McCain, when early voting is already open in battlegrounds like Ohio.

Here's the detailed CBS link.

CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/02/politics/horserace/entry4497035.shtml

Eighteen percent of previously uncommitted percent say they are now committed to the Obama-Biden ticket. Ten percent say they are now committed to McCain-Palin. Seventy-one percent are still uncommitted.

Of course, now you're going to tell me that all the MSM including Fox News :rolleyes:, CBS and CNN are left leaning so you can't believe anything they say.

We're not going to see the real impact of this debate, if it has any, in the polls until next week when the second presidential debate is scheduled to take place.

B

Ntombi

Oct 3, 2008, 02:51 AM

I watched the debate live, listened to the pundits on MSNBC, and then watched the replay of the whole debate with the CNN tracking squiggles on CNN, then watched the CNN pundits.

I wasn't shocked by Palin's performance, but she did do better than I expected; more like what I've seen of her debates in Alaska. Biden did very well too, and I thought he won, but with her exceeding expectations, that's a win of a sort.

I was most disappointed in Gwen Ifill's performance, hut that's mostly attributable to the stifling "debate" format that the republicans insisted on. I would *love* to see a real, no holds barred, debate between those two. :p

Regardless, it was a net positive for Obama/Biden, so I'm satisfied.

scotthayes

Oct 3, 2008, 03:03 AM

Now I've managed to get a few hours sleep (the debate started at 2am over here and I was drinking a lot of coffee) I've looked through the transcripts, this was one of the WTF!?!?! moments.

Palin "...You mentioned education and I'm glad you did. I know education you are passionate about with your wife being a teacher for 30 years, and god bless her. Her reward is in heaven, right? ..."

Counterfit

Oct 3, 2008, 04:26 AM

I'd vote for Maverick.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3852/111903-34571-maverick_large.jpg
Pfff, this Maverick is a much better candidate.
http://www.solarnavigator.net/films_movies_actors/actors_films_images/top_gun_maverick_tom_cruise_suited.jpg
Actually I think he is a fake Texan, he came from New England.

You mean we Texans don't have to claim him?!? *rejoices*
No way, he's all yours. He pronounces too many R's to be a real New Englandah.
I agree; remember Americans elected George Bush primarily because they could 'have a beer with him'...
Hasn't he been sober for over a decade? :confused:
It's akin to watching a high school baseball team play against the Yankees. You know the Yankees are holding back, and yet because the little league team scores a few runs, you're supposed to consider it a draw.

Actually, they weren't holding back. Carl Pavano was pitching.

Wait, am I supposed to have actual substance in this post?:o

SMM

Oct 3, 2008, 05:11 AM

As we read the republican demands, changes, demands, changes for the debate, this was really the only way this could have gone. There was not going to be any debate. It was going to be a carefully scripted series of stump speeches (if this subject comes up, go to answer 142, even if it does not fit the question. With only 60 second response times, Biden was not going to waste them, drawing her back to the question. She would just repeat what she said, and Biden would then have nothing to show.

For republicans, this greatly exceeded their expectations. Privately, it is known that her stock has fallen sharply amongst many of them. This should b enough to keep her on the ticket. Most of the national polls have her losing a considerable percentage (well over 10 percent). I must confess, the yardstick was set so low, I only made a couple cameo appearances. The rest of the time
was spent watching reruns of "my mother the car"

arkitect

Oct 3, 2008, 05:55 AM

Just watching the re-run on CNN this morning:

Palin's got the "nucular" down pat I hear…

Also why do both feel the need to invoke God every second sentence?
God bless this… God support that…

And all this mutual respect! Blahhh.
"I respect you for acknowledging that." WTF?

Where's Paxo when you need him?

I have a hard time getting to grips with US politics.

:D

scotthayes

Oct 3, 2008, 06:13 AM

Where's Paxo when you need him?

:D

Could you imagine what would happen if he got to interview them :D

arkitect

Oct 3, 2008, 06:15 AM

Could you imagine what would happen if he got to interview them :D

Oh yes! :D

*Wrings hands in anticipation*

takao

Oct 3, 2008, 07:14 AM

i watched it live on CNN (minus the after debate stuff ... it was already past 4:30 AM) and those graphs sure were hypnotic

i found that Palin hold her ok in the beginning thanks to her prepared answers and dodging (Biden could have been much harder on the and was quite OK in the end with the "down to earth" talk ... she can do that better than Biden

on the other side:
Palin essentially screwed big up on foreign policy ... especially the diplomacy talking point
Palin bringing up voting records of the senat over and over again despite Biden being well on his own ground in terms of getting facts straight there (and repeating maverick while he actually isn't ? not played well from "Goose")

overall i would rather say that Biden won with a small but safe margin ... while he had some screw ups (million/billion early on for example) he was always quick to correct himself and simply sounded more competent on average throughout the topics ... and outclassing Palin on foreign policy (a bonus point for pointing out that Ahmadinejad isn't Iran's actual leader .. if he could have named Ali Khamenei he would have gotten another one)

Palin had a moral victory since she did better than expected.. but she wouldn't have survived an open confrontation like it is done in other countries

(we just had elections ourselves here in austria last sunday so i have been treated to discussion after discussion on the TV .. and compared to those this US VP debate has been more or less a pillow fight where it isn't allowed to hit the other guy)

yg17

Oct 3, 2008, 07:49 AM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3091/2909496470_d751e8a3dc.jpg?v=0

Cleverboy

Oct 3, 2008, 08:04 AM

Overall, I agree with comments that Palin began to repeat her talking points aftert the 45 minute mark, whenever she ran into areas she was uncomfortable with. She often declined to address issues, instead suggesting things she WANTED to talk about (and quite blatantly too). Were the debate format even slightly more open, she'd have been in much more of a world of hurt.

Instead, she was able to skimp along with cardboard answers. Ahe had about ONE really good response that Biden chose to ignore (regarding his empathic comments about whether commanders on the ground supported the "surge strategy" or not). Biden chose to gravitate to greener pastures, rather than get into semantics, which it seemed clear they were both getting into. The fact that the comments happened earlier that day, seemed to be a point he was strongly hoping, she was unprepared for... but was disappointed she was.

Overall, she was the platitude machine she's always been, and continues to appear unqualified for the office of the President (though perfectly fine for many other administration positions). Her initial outburst of "folksiness" was embarrassingly irrelevant and transparent. Biden avoided any tremendous gaffes, and generally appeared much more responsive to questions. He even seemed overwhelmingly charming to Palin as they shook hands at the end, you could almost hear her blushing (and stammering) under the affect of his genuine, personable nature.

At the end of the day, I call it as a net positive for the Dems, and a "live to see another day" for the GOP. I think, however, her performance underscored the stark difference of real-solutions for America's problems and "platitudes" and "lies". It was striking how many times she pushed them, even when they were clearly refuted on-stage... and true to her comment (though perhaps not how she'd thought) the FACT-checkers pounced soon after (voting records, ), and exposed many of her debunked and inaccurate charges (with Biden getting corrected mostly on just his "clean coal" slip-up).

More annoying... more Couric interview:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/02/palin_picks_ferraro_as_favorit.html
Palin, knowingly picks Geraldine Ferraro as her favorite "Vice President" (even though she was only a candidate). WTF. It would have been more daming if she didn't know she was only a candidate, but considering she never served in that position and Palin had nothing specific to say on her character or values, the pick seemed pathetic as her usual answers continue to be.

~ CB

yellow

Oct 3, 2008, 08:17 AM

I watched until Palin said "Nuculer". NUCULER!

Then I was done. Sooooo done. :rolleyes:

newappleboy

Oct 3, 2008, 08:27 AM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3091/2909496470_d751e8a3dc.jpg?v=0

As the wonderful Karen Walker would say, "It's funny cuz it's true."

I watched until Palin said "Nuculer". NUCULER!

Then I was done. Sooooo done. :rolleyes:

Ditto. :p

yellow

Oct 3, 2008, 08:38 AM

I have never been a big Pailin fan, but I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt. I TRIED, I really did! But that was just too much for me.

As the wonderful Karen Walker would say, "It's funny cuz it's true."

Great find, btw!

yrsonicdeath

Oct 3, 2008, 09:06 AM

I've noticed a few people have mentioned they watched the debate on CNN, strange graph and all. Did anyone happen to catch any of the afterwards stuff? There was one pretty humorous moment when they caught a McCain/Palin supporter off guard by asking them why they thought She "Won the debate." It must be floating around the internet somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.

yojitani

Oct 3, 2008, 09:24 AM

Oh yes! :D

*Wrings hands in anticipation*

I've often hoped for this too. He would absolutely decimate most American politicians.

For Americans who don't know who this is, have a look at this infamous interview of Michael Howard. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwlsd8RAoqI)

nbs2

Oct 3, 2008, 10:08 AM

I watched until Palin said "Nuculer". NUCULER!

Then I was done. Sooooo done. :rolleyes:

Not that I would ever accuse Palin of having won that debate (or at least the 2 minutes that I could stand watching before I gave up), but I do take issue with this condemnation (just as I did eight years ago).

There are a fair number of bright folk out in the intermountain west, and a good number of them would say nuculer. The problem is just the accent that they grew up with - I expect Palin has it as a result of her Idahoan parents. All along that corridor people talk kind of funny. Not that she doesn't sound funny - the thicker, the funnier.

I find it tragic that intelligent comments would be so easily discarded because of a native accent.

63dot

Oct 3, 2008, 10:15 AM

yrsonicdeath

Oct 3, 2008, 10:16 AM

I know some people, not from the west coast, call Oregon, "Oh-Ray-Gun". What if I called Illinois, "Eely-Noys"?

Eely-Noise goes better with Oh-Ray-Gun. :)

63dot

Oct 3, 2008, 10:18 AM

Eely-Noise goes better with Oh-Ray-Gun. :)

and collyfornia is another good one, but only their governor says that

atszyman

Oct 3, 2008, 10:22 AM

Not that I would ever accuse Palin of having won that debate (or at least the 2 minutes that I could stand watching before I gave up), but I do take issue with this condemnation (just as I did eight years ago).

There are a fair number of bright folk out in the intermountain west, and a good number of them would say nuculer. The problem is just the accent that they grew up with - I expect Palin has it as a result of her Idahoan parents. All along that corridor people talk kind of funny. Not that she doesn't sound funny - the thicker, the funnier.

I find it tragic that intelligent comments would be so easily discarded because of a native accent.

I'm sorry but I find this to be a poor excuse.

dropping Hs, adding Rs, harsher consonants are accents. "Nu-cyoo-lar" is a mispronunciation plain and simple. I may have grown up around a lot of people who say it that way, that does not make the pronunciation correct. Nuclear isn't even close to how it would be spelled if that were the proper pronunciation.

I will accept "New clear" and "Nu-clee-ah" as accent driven, but the minute you stick a vowel between the c and l you've gone beyond accent and into mispronunciation.

I agree it's not a sign of intelligence (unless it continues after being corrected) but you'd think that given the grief that Bush has gotten from that pronunciation, they would have worked with Palin on helping her fix her pronunciation and while many very intelligent people mispronounce many words, repeatedly mispronouncing a word that has been the source of ridicule for our current President will not help improve peoples' opinion of her intelligence.

I don't necessarily hold the pronunciation against her, but it does make me cringe every time I hear "Nu-cu-lar". It also doesn't help the McCain campaign in distancing itself from Bush since every time it's said that way it reminds many of Bush.

iShater

Oct 3, 2008, 10:29 AM

Aaaah, good morning y'all. I had this nightmare that there was this debate and Palin spoke in tongues and said stuff like ... "big shout to ..." and "joe-six pack ... " and to "3rd graders in ... " ....

glad I woke up ....

what? that was real? she IS that bad? it is not just an act? :eek: :p

Anuba

Oct 3, 2008, 10:29 AM

As much as I hate the "nucular" pronunciation, the fact is that many dictionaries now recognize it. It seems that if enough uneducated Americans pronounce something inaccurately or spell it wrong, they are "right". Nuclear - nucular, aluminium - aluminum, etc. Give it a few more years, and the dictionaries will recognize "foilage", "could/would/should of" and "for all intensive purposes".

yrsonicdeath

Oct 3, 2008, 10:32 AM

I'm sorry but I find this to be a poor excuse.

dropping Hs, adding Rs, harsher consonants are accents. "Nu-cyoo-lar" is a mispronunciation plain and simple. I may have grown up around a lot of people who say it that way, that does not make the pronunciation correct. Nuclear isn't even close to how it would be spelled if that were the proper pronunciation.

I will accept "New clear" and "Nu-clee-ah" as accent driven, but the minute you stick a vowel between the c and l you've gone beyond accent and into mispronunciation.

I agree it's not a sign of intelligence (unless it continues after being corrected) but you'd think that given the grief that Bush has gotten from that pronunciation, they would have worked with Palin on helping her fix her pronunciation and while many very intelligent people mispronounce many words, repeatedly mispronouncing a word that has been the source of ridicule for our current President will not help improve peoples' opinion of her intelligence.

I don't necessarily hold the pronunciation against her, but it does make me cringe every time I hear "Nu-cu-lar". It also doesn't help the McCain campaign in distancing itself from Bush since every time it's said that way it reminds many of Bush.

I was going to agree with you and cite nucleus as an example, but it occurred to me that someone who mispronounced nuclear would probably also mispronounce nucleus. Oh well, I still agree with you.

yellow

Oct 3, 2008, 10:32 AM

There are a fair number of bright folk out in the intermountain west, and a good number of them would say nuculer. The problem is just the accent that they grew up with - I expect Palin has it as a result of her Idahoan parents. All along that corridor people talk kind of funny. Not that she doesn't sound funny - the thicker, the funnier.

I find it tragic that intelligent comments would be so easily discarded because of a native accent.

I never said she wasn't bright.

But please, it's not an issue with accents. It's just plain wrong. Call me a nitpicker, I don't mind. It bugs me just as much as "MAC" bugs me. It's wrong. Hell, T. Boone Pickens sounds like a hillbilly, and he's vastly smarter (and richer) than most Americans. But if he said "nucular" (and he may), my respect for him would fall just a bit.

However, this isn't mispronouncing or misemphasizing a word, such as Iraq (apparently it's actually "EYE-RACK", and not "EE-RAUK" as some actual Iraqi collegues pronounce it). It's totally incorrect.

Did she slip an "irregardless" or a "for all intensive purposes" in there? I don't think so.

I know some people, not from the west coast, call Oregon, "Oh-Ray-Gun".

My wife is from Oregon. I'm from Rhode Island. I pronounced it "Ore-A-Gaahn" until I met her (and was corrected).
Guess what? I was able to learn how to say it correctly, as well as re-educate people I meet who still pronounce it incorrectly. It's possible. I know she could do it. :)

newappleboy

Oct 3, 2008, 10:33 AM

I'm sorry but I find this to be a poor excuse.

dropping Hs, adding Rs, harsher consonants are accents. "Nu-cyoo-lar" is a mispronunciation plain and simple. I may have grown up around a lot of people who say it that way, that does not make the pronunciation correct. Nuclear isn't even close to how it would be spelled if that were the proper pronunciation.

I will accept "New clear" and "Nu-clee-ah" as accent driven, but the minute you stick a vowel between the c and l you've gone beyond accent and into mispronunciation.

I agree it's not a sign of intelligence (unless it continues after being corrected) but you'd think that given the grief that Bush has gotten from that pronunciation, they would have worked with Palin on helping her fix her pronunciation and while many very intelligent people mispronounce many words, repeatedly mispronouncing a word that has been the source of ridicule for our current President will not help improve peoples' opinion of her intelligence.

I don't necessarily hold the pronunciation against her, but it does make me cringe every time I hear "Nu-cu-lar". It also doesn't help the McCain campaign in distancing itself from Bush since every time it's said that way it reminds many of Bush.

Very well said and I agree whole heartedly. Using an accent as an excuse can only be accepted for so long. Just like people who say "can I axe you a question?" instead of "ask". There's a difference between an accent and a blatant disregard for saying things properly.

yellow

Oct 3, 2008, 10:38 AM

It also doesn't help the McCain campaign in distancing itself from Bush since every time it's said that way it reminds many of Bush.

Excellent observation. I most definitely immediately associated it with Bush, and not hard to see where the rest of it might go.

Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice... ;)

obeygiant

Oct 3, 2008, 10:46 AM

However, this isn't mispronouncing or misemphasizing a word, such as Iraq (apparently it's actually "EYE-RACK", and not "EE-RAUK" as some actual Iraqi collegues pronounce it). It's totally incorrect.

Actually it's pronounced "ear-ran" or "ear-rock".

You can hear the pronunciation here:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/iraq
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/iran

One of the things I've learned from Christiane Amanpour.

yellow

Oct 3, 2008, 11:04 AM

Actually it's pronounced "ear-ran" or "ear-rock".

Well, I'm not so hot at phonetic spelling. That pronunciation is the Anglicized version, yes. But actual Iraqis pronounce it a bit differently.

"Eye-Rack" is still ****ing wrong.

Anuba

Oct 3, 2008, 11:09 AM

I don't think it's fair to read that much into the accent.
Bill Clinton's accent made him sound like an illiterate pig farmer, but I've never heard anyone question his intelligence.

newappleboy

Oct 3, 2008, 11:24 AM

I don't think it's fair to read that much into the accent.
Bill Clinton's accent made him sound like an illiterate pig farmer, but I've never heard anyone question his intelligence.

That's because you don't know me. I stand firm that accents for the most part can be avoided, at least sometimes. I have lived in Texas all my life and have no country twang or anything you might expect from a cowboy. However, people will hear Texas and assume accent. Same can be said of many regions of the states, let alone the world. The fact that not everybody exhibits these accents is proof that those that do just don't care enough to worry about it.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying people with accents are stupid or lazy. Just that when it comes to accents, that's one thing, but when you're saying words wrong (especially in as public a light as being a president or vice president candidate), you need to make a conscious effort to make a change.

Ugg

Oct 3, 2008, 11:38 AM

I stand firm that accents for the most part can be avoided, at least sometimes.

Palin's accent is clearly an affectation, just like bush's accent is.

The growth of "I'm proud to be a Redneck" jokes and sales of "country" style magazines extolling the virtues of living a "simple" life are clearly connected. It's not a modern phenomenon either. The "heartland" has always been distrustful of intellectualism. Being stupid has actually become a desirable trait for many people.

Being stupid has nothing to do with how much money you make, rather the more you sound like Forrest Gump, the more of a "real" person you are.

Anuba

Oct 3, 2008, 11:49 AM

That's because you don't know me. I stand firm that accents for the most part can be avoided, at least sometimes. I have lived in Texas all my life and have no country twang or anything you might expect from a cowboy. However, people will hear Texas and assume accent. Same can be said of many regions of the states, let alone the world. The fact that not everybody exhibits these accents is proof that those that do just don't care enough to worry about it.
Trust me, I know all about changing accents. Here in Sweden we have a dialectal 'map' that's very much like its American counterpart, with roughly 20 distinguishable accents ranging from posh city accent to country twang. I could do all those accents when I was about 7 years old and when our family moved around during my school years I always took up whatever accent the locals had. When I talk to North Americans they often think I'm pulling their leg when I insist that I'm Swedish, because my American accent is 95% authentic.

But the thing is, the ability to switch accents has little to do with intelligence, it's a talent that's closely related to musicality. And as you know, there are some incredibly dumb people who are brilliant musicians. An African Grey parrot can mimic just about any sound, it's like a biological tape recorder, but can it solve complex mathematical problems? No. It's fairly adept at basic problem solving like 'how do I open this cage door', but that's about it.

People who are secure in their identity and/or lack this particular talent aren't going to bother trying to suppress their original accent. It's not a sign of lack of ambition, IMO.

Delta608

Oct 3, 2008, 12:40 PM

i think its sad that no one supports gay marriage... is the country still that discriminate?

sad.

Yes.......Although we don't see it that way...That is beauty of this nation..

i think its sad that no one supports gay marriage... is the country still that discriminate?

sad.

Biden, we only listen to one "ally", Israel.

We hate Spain too :p

edit:
Holocaust?
Please name ONE thing Israel has done for the US? Thanks.
Peace-seeking?

I think I should stop listening. :rolleyes:

That's only because they don't have bagels or peanutbutter :p

And Israel's given us the Core 2 Duo that's powering your mac :)

Nextels and some pretty hot women.....

mactastic

Oct 3, 2008, 01:16 PM

@ Sarah Palin: If you're going to wink at me that much, you better buy me a drink...

yojitani

Oct 3, 2008, 01:19 PM

Palin's accent is clearly an affectation, just like bush's accent is.

The growth of "I'm proud to be a Redneck" jokes and sales of "country" style magazines extolling the virtues of living a "simple" life are clearly connected. It's not a modern phenomenon either. The "heartland" has always been distrustful of intellectualism. Being stupid has actually become a desirable trait for many people.

Being stupid has nothing to do with how much money you make, rather the more you sound like Forrest Gump, the more of a "real" person you are.

This is absolutely correct. I don't know what brings the accent and dialect police out - as if there is a such thing as 'the right way to speak' - but the reaction I'm sure is warmly welcomed by the republicans who have shaped the last 60 years of american politics by substituting the real concerns of working people with a simulacrum of their identity. The opprobrium directed against the accent is, in republican speak (and technically not wrong, even though I doubt most real republicans believe it) the arrogance of northerners and the elite.

Palin speaking like that, just as it was with Bush, insinuates some sense of shared identity. Criticizing it, simply confirms that hollow view of shared identity.

BoyBach

Oct 3, 2008, 01:37 PM

Where's Paxo when you need him?

:D

Could you imagine what would happen if he got to interview them :D

Oh yes! :D

*Wrings hands in anticipation*

Raises eyebrow, "Yeeeeeeeeeeees!" :D

However, this isn't mispronouncing or misemphasizing a word, such as Iraq (apparently it's actually "EYE-RACK", and not "EE-RAUK" as some actual Iraqi collegues pronounce it). It's totally incorrect.

Actually it's pronounced "ear-ran" or "ear-rock".

I thought they were pronounced "I rack" and "I ruin"? :p

MacNut

Oct 3, 2008, 03:33 PM

Something Biden wants to confess.
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/10/3/128675356421155642.jpg
:p

joepunk

Oct 3, 2008, 11:54 PM

i would like to present normal Joe six-pack American

powerbuddy

Oct 4, 2008, 12:01 AM

Biden clearly won the debate. :)

63dot

Oct 4, 2008, 02:39 AM

Biden clearly won the debate. :)

The electoral vote polls show a bounce for the obama camp, but it's hard to tell what the factor was, but Palin certainly didn't help. Now I know why the McCain camp has kept her away from the press.

If she can't make it in politics, stand up comedy is definitely a possibility.

Anuba

Oct 4, 2008, 06:04 AM

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/03/debate.words/index.html

"Language monitoring service says Palin spoke at 9.5, Biden at 7.8"

"The two candidates were nearly even in total number of words spoken. The normally voluble Biden restrained his tendency to ramble by uttering just 5,492 words during the 90-minute debate, versus 5,235 for Palin, Payack said."

"Grade level: Biden, 7.8; Palin, 9.5 (Newspapers are typically written to a sixth-grade reading level.)

Sentences per paragraph: statistically tied at 2.7 for Biden and 2.6 for Palin.

Letters per word: tied at 4.4.

Ease of reading: Biden, 66.7 (with 100 being the easiest to read or hear), versus 62.4 for Palin."
8th grade is what they aim for, I believe, so Biden got pretty close. Palin probably tried to overcompensate in order to convince intellectuals she isn't a complete moron.

Edit: Introducing, the Sarah Palin Debate Flowchart:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3084/2910698021_ab88590f4b.jpg

Lord Blackadder

Oct 4, 2008, 05:32 PM

Atoms have a nucleus. Energy derived through the splitting of these nuclei is called nuclear energy.

It isn't a question of regional accents but one of education and/or laziness in speech.

Don't panic

Oct 4, 2008, 05:57 PM

yg17

Oct 4, 2008, 05:58 PM

Atoms have a nucleus. Energy derived through the splitting of these nuclei is called nuclear energy.

It isn't a question of regional accents but one of education and/or laziness in speech.

I think Iraq and Iran are one of those words, much like tomato, where you can say "to-may-to" or "to-mah-to", you can say "eye-rack" or "eee-rack" and still be correct. Even if it's technically pronounced a specific way, because of different accents, I understand the differences in pronunciation (I personally say "eye-rack" and "eye-ran")

But I don't know where the hell they get "nuk-u-lar" from. There's absolutely no ambiguity in the word. They're throwing in an extra "u" between the "c" and "l" I can give a free pass on whether the last syllable is "lear" or "lur" or "lar" because of different accents, but not an extra letter. Just like the word "wash." When someone says "wosh" that's fine, but if you add in the r for "worsh" then you're just really pissing me off.

takao

Oct 4, 2008, 06:01 PM

maybe in england.

it's called engelund

skunk

Oct 4, 2008, 06:04 PM

it's called engelundNon Engli sed Engeli.

Don't panic

Oct 4, 2008, 06:07 PM

I think Iraq and Iran are one of those words, much like tomato, where you can say "to-may-to" or "to-mah-to", you can say "eye-rack" or "eee-rack" and still be correct. Even if it's technically pronounced a specific way, because of different accents, I understand the differences in pronunciation (I personally say "eye-rack" and "eye-ran")

But I don't know where the hell they get "nuk-u-lar" from. There's absolutely no ambiguity in the word. They're throwing in an extra "u" between the "c" and "l" I can give a free pass on whether the last syllable is "lear" or "lur" or "lar" because of different accents, but not an extra letter. Just like the word "wash." When someone says "wosh" that's fine, but if you add in the r for "worsh" then you're just really pissing me off.

sorry, but the fact that it is used doesn't make it correct. maybe it will be correct in the future as the language evolves, but -currently- you are saying it wrong. just out of curiosity, do you also say 'eye-talian'?
but with the 'nukular' stuff i am with you.
'worsh' i have never heard

Don't panic

Oct 4, 2008, 06:08 PM

Non Engli sed Engeli.

:confused: this one 'worshed' over my head

skunk

Oct 4, 2008, 06:09 PM

skunk

Oct 4, 2008, 06:11 PM

:confused: this one 'worshed' over my headSaint Augustine was reputed to have remarked, when he saw some blond Angles for the first time in Rome, and being told which people they were: "Non Angli, sed angeli" (Not Angles but angels).

Don't panic

Oct 4, 2008, 06:17 PM

Saint Augustine was reputed to have remarked, when he saw some blond Angles for the first time in Rome, and being told which people they were: "Non Angli, sed angeli" (Not Angles but angels).

never heard of that one.
i learned something today. yeay!

EricNau

Oct 4, 2008, 06:19 PM

You're at odds with the natives, then. They say "Ee-rahk" and "Ee-rahn", so there's little excuse for that.
Should we start referring to Germany as "Deutschland," as the natives would prefer?

skunk

Oct 4, 2008, 06:21 PM

Should we start referring to Germany as "Deutschland," as the natives would prefer?You can if you want, but the term "Germany" predates "Deutschland" by many centuries, so I'm quite happy to stay with that.

Don't panic

Oct 4, 2008, 06:23 PM

Should we start referring to Germany as "Deutschland," as the natives would prefer?

that's completely different.

we call the country Iraq or Irak, because that's the transliteration in english/western languages of the local name.

to then turn around and change the pronounciation because of how we pronounce similarly written words and claim it is also correct is ridiculous.

leekohler

Oct 4, 2008, 06:34 PM

Finally watched last night- Palin sounded like an idiot. She outright refused to answer certain questions. She just kept going back to "energy" when she couldn't think of anything else to say. I think she memorized those lines just for the purpose of dodging. It was painful to watch. There were moments when I wanted to throw my bourbon at the computer screen.

yg17

Oct 4, 2008, 06:34 PM

sorry, but the fact that it is used doesn't make it correct. maybe it will be correct in the future as the language evolves, but -currently- you are saying it wrong. just out of curiosity, do you also say 'eye-talian'?
but with the 'nukular' stuff i am with you.
'worsh' i have never heard

Fair enough, I guess I'll change how I pronounce it. And no, I don't say "eye-talian." I say "i-talian" (the first syllable rhyming with it).

Can't believe you've never heard "worsh." Maybe "warsh" is a better way to spell it. Must be a midwest thing.

But how is Deutschland/Germany any different than Iraq and Iran? We choose to call their country what we want to, not what they want to, and everyone's fine with it. But if we call Iraq what we want to, and not what they want to, it's a big deal.

Honestly, I think we should refer to countries as the locals refer to them. Deutschland instead of Germany, España instead of Spain, Sverige instead of Sweden, etc. Typically, our first and last names don't change if we go overseas. My name is Todd, and I prefer to be called that regardless of what the native language. I suppose a case could be made for Michael/Miguel, but if Michael was my name, I'd still want to be called that if I were in a Spanish-speaking country.

Of course, it would be strange with us, because "United States" isn't so much a name like Germany or Sweden is, but it's more of a description of what we are. We don't really have a name like other countries, so I don't know what other languages should refer to us as (I know right now, it's in their native language). Same thing for the United Kingdom.....

Don't panic

Oct 4, 2008, 06:52 PM

But how is Deutschland/Germany any different than Iraq and Iran? We choose to call their country what we want to, not what they want to, and everyone's fine with it. But if we call Iraq what we want to, and not what they want to, it's a big deal.

if someone started pronouncing "dee-yut-schland", then you'd have a comaparable situation

Anuba

Oct 4, 2008, 07:25 PM

Honestly, I think we should refer to countries as the locals refer to them. Deutschland instead of Germany, España instead of Spain, Sverige instead of Sweden, etc.

Typically, our first and last names don't change if we go overseas. My name is Todd, and I prefer to be called that regardless of what the native language. I suppose a case could be made for Michael/Miguel, but if Michael was my name, I'd still want to be called that if I were in a Spanish-speaking country.
Yeah, the rules seem kind of arbitrary. Some country names and some capitals and major cities are 'translated', but only in some languages. For instance, Stockholm is indeed Stockholm in both Swedish and English, but in Spanish it's Estocolmo. Köbenhavn, on the other hand, is "Köpenhamn" in Swedish but "Copenhagen" in English. Göteborg is Gothenburg in English.

Then there are some countries that don't really have "names" per se, like the United States. In Swedish we're technically supposed to call it "Förenta Staterna", which would be abbreviated to FS, but we write USA and use it as if it was the full name rather than an acronym. When we abbreviate the United Nations on the other hand, we write FN, not UN. And we refer to the United Kingdom not as "Förenade Kungadömet", but Storbritannien (Great Britain). In most languages New York is called "New York" even though the "new" part should arguably be translated (e.g. "Nya York" in Swedish)... but then why not translate the "york" part too? But... York derives from the Latin name Eboracum, which in turn derives from the Proto-Brythonic word Eborakon meaning 'place of the yew trees'. But since these yew trees (whatever the hell that is) probably don't grow in New York, is it wrong to call it York? And if we're trying to get to the root of this thing, perhaps it should go by its native American name? And what about New Orleans, should that be "New" (English pronunciation) and "Orleans" (French pronunciation), or perhaps Nouveau Orleans? In Swedish, should it be "Nya" (swedish) and "Orleans" with English pronunciation, or French? We used to pronounce it "nu-oar-leens", but a few years ago when NO was in the news a lot, Swedish news anchors suddenly started pronouncing it more like "nworlens" like Americans do. Help!!

And then there are places that are trying to retire their anglicized names, like Peking/Beijing and Bombay/Mumbai.

When it comes to historical persons and biblical names, they tend to have localized names in some languages but not in others. Alexander the Great, Joan of Arc (as opposed to Mégas Aléxandros and Jeanne D'Arc... Then there's King Gustavus Adolphus II, which is a latinized name that is no longer in use in Swedish (we call him Gustav Adolf II) but still prevails in English. In English you refer to biblical figures as "Peter", "Matthew" etc, while in Swedish they're called "Petrus" and "Matteus" -- but those aren't Swedish names (in that case we'd say "Peter" and "Mathias"), they're latinized names. But if you want it 100% accurate they should go by their Hebrew names, Kephas and Mattiyahu. No wait... Hebrew isn't right either, it should be Aramaic. Sigh...

EricNau

Oct 4, 2008, 08:15 PM

if someone started pronouncing "dee-yut-schland", then you'd have a comaparable situation
What about the differences in pronunciation of "France" in English and French?

Lord Blackadder

Oct 4, 2008, 11:36 PM

If you ask an English-speaking Iraqi how to pronounce the name of their country, they pronounce it "ear-rock". Similarly, Iran sounds like "ear-ron".

I see the "eye-rack" pronunciation of Iraq as being similarly incorrect to "eye-talian" for Italian.

...but the "nukeeyular" thing is a different issue. It isn't a foreign word (like "Iraq"), nor is it subject to wide regional variation. "Nukeeyular" is just wrong.

solvs

Oct 5, 2008, 11:13 PM

Yes.......Although we don't see it that way...That is beauty of this nation..
Yeah, it's so great that we can still think of ourselves as the freest nation... simply by saying these types of things aren't freedom related nor discrimination because a majority of people who vote think their religion says it's wrong, which they have no problem imposing on others who don't share their views. Freedom baby. Taking away others rights because of what we believe. :rolleyes:

Anyway, speaking of majorities, I'm with the majority here that obviously know Biden won. Of course he won. He was going to win. The only way he could have lost was if he made a big gaffe, and he really didn't. I actually wanted him to get tougher, but he wasn't out for my vote, he was out for the undecideds who it turns out liked him. She didn't fail miserably, but her folksy charm and scripted talking points that sounded like a bad reading didn't seem to do much more than reassure the base. Also didn't help that she didn't seem to listen (like that moment when Biden choked up, and stopped himself because he was worried it was going to be a gaffe and she just went into her talking points as a response, the girl can't improv or really doesn't care... or just wasn't paying attention). Or that she was just going to change the subject if she was listening, which seems even worse.

Indies didn't like her. Actually, the more she tried to be charming over using actual substance, and even when she tried to pretend she had substance, the more they disliked her. Combine that with the tanking economy, which neither McCain nor Palin has actually helped themselves with, and it's over for them. Checking the polls, Obama pretty much has it nailed already. He could use about 5-10 more electoral votes from the swing states to shore it up, but other than that, unless something fundamentally changes in the next few weeks, I don't think McCain is going to win.

I May Not Answer The Questions The Way You And The Moderator Want... (http://headofstate.blogspot.com/2008/10/i-may-not-answer-questions-way-you-and.html)
Pitbull Palin Mauls McCain (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/opinion/05rich.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

And I love this one:

VP Debate: What Sarah Palin Didn't Do (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rick-horowitz/vp-debate-what-sarah-pali_b_131886.html)
She still hasn't given any sign that she actually knows anything about anything. I take that back: She knows something about energy. Or at least about pipelines, and drilling. Which is why she kept trying to turn the conversation to energy every chance she got. (Regardless of the question she'd been asked.) The rest of it was just talking points. Memorized. And only one answer deep. That just doesn't cut it. Not for a vice president. Certainly not for a possible president.
I used to think she was just incurious, maybe didn't pay attention (or didn't care). Maybe she just didn't follow the news that much or something. But now, I don't know, as if those weren't bad enough, I'm leaning back to her not knowing anything. Which is terrifying enough for a VP, but even worse considering the last almost 8 years of having one of those if she becomes Pres. Hoping others see that too. Watching the latest polls, I'm thinking people do see it.

Thomas Veil

Oct 6, 2008, 11:43 PM

One more view of the debate:

http://media.mcclatchydc.com/smedia/2008/10/06/11/339-10052008Siers_color.slideshow_main.prod_affiliate.91.jpg

63dot

Oct 7, 2008, 02:29 AM

Now CNN says Palin's disapproval rating has almost doubled from 21% percent when we first saw her to the 40% percent it sits at today. (CNN)

Being a democrat, this is good news, but now we may see a President Obama taking over a country that will be in a real or perceived depression.

gotzero

Oct 7, 2008, 02:40 AM

Now CNN says Palin's disapproval rating has almost doubled from 21% percent when we first saw her to the 40% percent it sits at today. (CNN)

That will be combatted with the "tough campaigning" mentioned today. I am amused that there is anything tougher to come from them than what is spewed already.

I am tired of the outright lies originating from the conservatives. The debate should have been an embarrassment for Palin, who ran away from questions.

The "terrorist" crap this week was the last straw for me. In the early 70s, when the weather underground was "active", Obama was about 10 years old. I seriously doubt he was getting political at that age.

I really hope this election is not close. I cannot wait for Palin's corruption probe to come out.

BoyBach

Oct 7, 2008, 09:01 AM

One more view of the debate:

Very good! :D

(And depressingly accurate.)

63dot

Oct 7, 2008, 10:51 AM

That will be combatted with the "tough campaigning" mentioned today. I am amused that there is anything tougher to come from them than what is spewed already.

I am tired of the outright lies originating from the conservatives. The debate should have been an embarrassment for Palin, who ran away from questions.

The "terrorist" crap this week was the last straw for me. In the early 70s, when the weather underground was "active", Obama was about 10 years old. I seriously doubt he was getting political at that age.

I really hope this election is not close. I cannot wait for Palin's corruption probe to come out.

As much as I want Obama to win, I don't like that my own party, the democrats, are trying to paint John McCain as another George W Bush. First, nobody is as bad as W. Second, John McCain has a history of disagreeing with the President and with one of W's strongest bases, the Christian Right. And finally, McCain is more like George HW Bush, Purple Heart, War Hero, etc unlike W's absenteeism stateside in his squadron.

And about Palin, she's a non-factor in terms of importance unless she does in fact become the President. She has less than two years in national level politics and nobody can rack up bad points on the level of a McCain or Biden who both have plenty of dirt that can be brought up, and spun in a bad way, just based on their Senate voting records. I am sure there are ways both have voted which they regret today, especially if it comes out to bite them. Hilary voted for the war in Iraq, and that could have been a factor which made many who would otherwise vote for her go to Obama.

I think people are scared of Palin due to her inexperience. W on the other hand is spooky because he is truly corrupt and has a long record to show that.

atszyman

Oct 7, 2008, 12:01 PM

As much as I want Obama to win, I don't like that my own party, the democrats, are trying to paint John McCain as another George W Bush. First, nobody is as bad as W. Second, John McCain has a history of disagreeing with the President and with one of W's strongest bases, the Christian Right. And finally, McCain is more like George HW Bush, Purple Heart, War Hero, etc unlike W's absenteeism stateside in his squadron.

I will agree that he had a history of disagreeing with the administration, but he hasn't been a thorn in the administration's side since before the 2006 midterms if not longer, and has been very chummy with the administration and the Christian right in recent years in an effort to keep the base support.

I liked McCain in 2000, I just with the 2000 McCain were running now, it would actually be a much harder decision to make on election day.

63dot

Oct 7, 2008, 01:50 PM

I will agree that he had a history of disagreeing with the administration, but he hasn't been a thorn in the administration's side since before the 2006 midterms if not longer, and has been very chummy with the administration and the Christian right in recent years in an effort to keep the base support.

I liked McCain in 2000, I just with the 2000 McCain were running now, it would actually be a much harder decision to make on election day.

McCain is too far behind in swing states to make a difference, but if he has any chance, he has to bring up why he is different than Bush. He has plenty to rely on with his voting record, but he should have done that earlier. The perception with the public is that he is probably just another republican and not the maverick he was once known to be. The maverick title goes to Ron Paul.

solvs

Oct 7, 2008, 09:45 PM

McCain is too far behind in swing states to make a difference, but if he has any chance, he has to bring up why he is different than Bush.

Is it true John McCain voted with George Bush 95 percent of the time? (http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/is_it_true_john_mccain_voted_with.html)

Short answer, yes. Obama voted with him about 40% of the time to give you a baseline. Looking at his plans, they actually seem worse than Bush's, but yes, a lot of more of the same. There's a reason why this tactic is working for Obama (especially with the economy going where it is), even if the "maverick" title is still kinda working for McCain (though not as much as it used to).