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View Full Version : What changes would Apple need to be made in order to make more PC people switch?


mgargan1
Jan 28, 2004, 12:08 PM
What CPU clock speed do you think would be necessary to make even more PC people to switch to the Mac. I think the G5 is doing great, but the Athlon FX and Athlon 64 are great processors. I think that if Apple would release a system with 2.4-2.6GHz, or maybe quad machines? I think the OS is world class, and i do agree that the G5 is very fast, but i don't think it's fast enough to make people wanna switch as fast as they are.

patrick0brien
Jan 28, 2004, 12:27 PM
-mgargan1

Honestly? They need to market what they have. Strongly. Show what it can do. Show the power, the accessibility, the strength.

They need to tell it like it is - focused from a mythkilling perspective.

Powerbook G5
Jan 28, 2004, 12:41 PM
I agree it's more of a marketing position that would be needed instead of a hardware change. The G5 could be at 4.5 GHz and the anti-Mac crowd still wouldn't care because they have no knowledge of what Macintosh computers can do. People spread ideas around that Macs can't use the internet properly and such and just assume they are junk. I had someone in the library ask me once why I was using a Macintosh at school if they aren't able to go online. I smirked since I was in fact online wirelessly with my phone while others in the library either couldn't go online or couldn't get the school network to work for them.

spinner
Jan 28, 2004, 01:47 PM
Getting rid of all the misconceptions and flat out lies there are floating around would be huge. When I worked for Gateway, one of my friends who had been a tech there for several years and knew PC's inside and out, swore that no one made software for Macs except Apple and that they were unable to connect to the internet.

jxyama
Jan 28, 2004, 02:01 PM
economically non-viable but the easiest way is to simply drop the prices.

better way would be to appeal how Macs work very well with digital gadgets. target consumers purchasing digital cameras and camcorders and show them how Macs can help them get more (much more!) out of their recent investments.

lastly, Macs need to emphasize that almost all of their machines are very capable (except maybe RAMs) in their stock config. a good way is to advertize how many transactions go when you call a company like dell:

customer: hi, i'd like to order the $499 desktop.

dell: hi, what would you like to do with it?

customer: hmm, i like to email, surf the web and also use it with my digital camera.

dell: oh, ok, in that case, you may want to add the CD burner so you can make a backup of your pictures.

customer: oh. can i watch dvd on it too?

dell: well, in that case, you will need a combination CD burner and DVD player.

customer: ok, that sounds good. anything else i might need?

dell: well, we highly recommend adding more harddrive space and memory to make the system run better.

customer: ok... how much is all that?

dell: well, with all the additions, it'll be $900.

customer: oh, that's a bit more than i expected.. does it come with a nicer monitor?

dell: it comes with 17" crt. if you'd like a 15" flat screen, it will be $100 extra...

etc. etc.

(this is not factual based, but you know what i mean.)

Raid
Jan 28, 2004, 02:06 PM
Honestly to get masses of people to switch, it's got to be a three-pronged attack.

1)Apple needs to come out and get corporations first. As far as server applications are concerned Macs offer a vaild and strong alternitive when you compare the vitals and performance. As an incentive Apple can push the reduced IT costs as an incentive to buy. They should first start targeting small to medium businesses (or those without large integrated systems) and then go for bigger business when phase 2 has started to produce results.

2)Next entice application development with 3rd party developers in all areas (server, home user, games, etc.). If Apple holds the hands of first time developers while they port over a few apps to the Mac OS X environment they will get the hang of it and not fret about the unknown addtional cost of development for more users purchasing their products.

3)Home users are the last step that almost works it's self out. If you have corporations using Macs, people will be exposed to the Mac environment at work. They will use it, become more informed about it and dare I say many of them will become fans. What will tip the scales from fans into buyers is the availibility and variety of programs availible. If they see that owning a Mac means not having to give up programs they know and love, they won't be afraid to switch.

....but that's just my $0.02 and I hated my marketing courses in University. ;)

Awimoway
Jan 28, 2004, 02:27 PM
Price, price price, price-price-price-price-price-price.

...Which Apple will never change.

Oh, and compatibility with Windows and a much wider array of hardware and software. Most Windows users who disdain Macs think that it drastically limits your choices.



But if Apple made all these changes, the hardware and software would both be much worse and Apple would no longer be Apple. I'm content that Apple is pretty much doing everything it can. Although I would like to see it's market share grow, I don't think it will. C'est la vie.

MacFan25
Jan 28, 2004, 02:42 PM
I agree with what Patrick said. Apple needs to show in their commercials what macs are capable of, and how great of an operating system OS X is.

The switch ad campaign was a great idea, and it actually got me to switch to the mac. But other people will say that it was a failure, and that Apple's marketshare went down during the campaign. I'd like to see another campaign like that, but emphasize more on how macs can be used by all sorts of people - not just artsy people.

With the sucess of iTunes and the iPod, and the number of windows users who are using these, Apple's strategy now is that they believe that these people will consider a mac for their next computer purchase. I hope that this strategy will work, and I believe it can, if Apple continues to show what great products they make.

jxyama
Jan 28, 2004, 02:59 PM
i change my mind, apple should just sit back and let M$ mess up... :D

edesignuk
Jan 28, 2004, 03:07 PM
They do need to do a better job pushing their strong products, problem is, the main line an average joe would be looking at, the iMac, is in serious need of a G5 to compete against the wintels.

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 28, 2004, 03:23 PM
Like many have said they need to get the product and software where people will see it. Hardware? the G4 is a good chip but since it never clocked up much in the past 5 years this has to be addressed. a 1.25 or better G4 in Emac, Imac has to have more cpu. you arent going to sell millions of 2 thousand dollar machines that are running a 1.25 G4. it needs a 1.6 G5 and option for 2.0 G5. it also needs better graphics then a fx5200. Pull out that chip and give it a agp slot and keep the prices where they are. Pro towers just need to get those bumps now that they have the G5. pro laptops underclocked G5's starting at 1.2 and 1.4 bottom line ibook & emac can make do with G4's as long as they are not crippled. G5s everywhere else. I think we will see all of this this year.

MorganX
Jan 28, 2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by edesignuk
They do need to do a better job pushing their strong products, problem is, the main line an average joe would be looking at, the iMac, is in serious need of a G5 to compete against the wintels.

Now that I agree with 100%.

Counterfit
Jan 28, 2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Imac has to have more cpu. you arent going to sell millions of 2 thousand dollar machines that are running a 1.25 G4. it needs a 1.6 G5 and option for 2.0 G5. it also needs better graphics then a fx5200. Pull out that chip and give it a agp slot and keep the prices where they are. I'm amazed at how you continue to not understand the concept behind "all-in-one".


Anyhoo, the most often heard things I at school ( from the windows/x86 fanboys really) are: "but it doesn't run windows" or "OS X is nice, but the hardware is too slow/overpriced/sucks"

rueyeet
Jan 28, 2004, 04:48 PM
Computing is only about clock speed if you're running processor-intensive apps, most of which except for games are in the realm of the pro or "pro-sumer". Most people just want to have Internet connectivity, maybe manage their budgets, write a few letters, take some digital photos, and maybe have a digital music collection. Wintel PCs have long since surpassed the clock speeds necessary for basic home use, and it's one of the reasons the industry has been in such a slump--no one needs to upgrade. So clock speed is NOT where it's at, here.

The reason most people don't buy Macs is that they are unfamiliar with them--when they say "computer", their only concept of a computer is a PC running Windows. There are lots of people that have only peripherially even heard of Macs, and have only a vague concept of what the differences are. Apple needs mindshare to increase marketshare.

Worse, most of the people who do include the Mac in their concept of a "computer" are thoroughly under the influence of all the myths: Macs aren't compatible. They're toys. They're for graphic designers. They're slow. Etc. Apple needs to combat these myths.

And even then, as long as they don't turn into a cheapo Dell-like pusher of low-priced crap, they're never going to get the people who are just looking for the lowest bottom line. Apple doesn't need to do anything about this, because as long as they can turn a profit, they don't need to be the Biggest Computer Company in the History of Mankind.

slipper
Jan 28, 2004, 08:29 PM
CPU speed has nothing to do with market share. the thing is, if people dont feel that there is any need to do something, they wont. most people find that the windows OS is just fine and dont want to deal. Apple needs to inform comsumers about how easy, compatible, updatable, and affordable macs are through advertisement. and once a skeptical PC user finally switches, maintain that relationship with good quality machines and great customer support. thats when the ultimate advertisement will finally take place, word of mouf.:D

i dont see very much apple advertisements compared to PCs especially since apple is competing with a million PC companies. the biggest complaint i get is that its not compatible and the second which puzzles me is the OS. Thrid is price. everybody here know that all the programs worth getting are available for macs, they dont. and almost every windows OS user has actually complimented OSX agreeing that its a better OS. they just dont feel the need to learn a new OS. As for price, maybe apple should develop a new series in the price range of emac with a different form factor thats more traditional like a PowerMac or cube.

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 28, 2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Counterfit
I'm amazed at how you continue to not understand the concept behind "all-in-one".


Anyhoo, the most often heard things I at school ( from the windows/x86 fanboys really) are: "but it doesn't run windows" or "OS X is nice, but the hardware is too slow/overpriced/sucks" Im amazed that you ignore the video card market on the pc side. you can still have a all in one with a little door on the side that allows this. and the hardware is to slow in Imac.

LethalWolfe
Jan 28, 2004, 09:19 PM
While I agree that proc speed, especially in this day and age, shouldn't be a big selling point for computers unfortunetly it is. Clock speed, RAM, and HDD size are easily quantifiable<sp?> and easily compared. So manufacturers will continue to say that computer X is better than computer Y because computer X has a faster CPU. Just look at AMD. They tried debunking the mhz myth too but eventually went to a rating system.

The big problem is getting people to stop comparing hardware and start comparing computers. Unfortunetly that's alot easier said than done.


Lethal

Inspector Lee
Jan 28, 2004, 09:32 PM
It's all about $$$ and xenophobia. The cheap n' plenty lemmings, when not burying small businesses with their weekly Wal-mart load-ups, can be seen salivating and moaning over Dell's $499 newspaper insert. They upgrade the optical drive, the monitor and if they are feeling daring the RAM. Oooooooooh! Throw in tax and 3 years of Norton Futilities plus the printer that'll die and be in a landfill in six months and they're suddenly knocking on the $1000 door. But in their minds, they only payed $499 and "got a great deal."

The bigger hurdle is the fear of anything different. Nobody wants to go out on a limb to see what the fruit tastes like anymore. It is amazing how dead-on the "1984" commercial is. Weekly virus attacks, crashes and reboots, clunky GUI - and they still sell like hotcakes.

I didn't switch in December 2002, I woke up.

slipper
Jan 28, 2004, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by slipper
CPU speed has nothing to do with market share.

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
While I agree that proc speed, especially in this day and age, shouldn't be a big selling point for computers unfortunetly it is. Clock speed, RAM, and HDD size are easily quantifiable
i was refering to the apple verus PC contest, but on a PC to PC basis yes gigahertz is a big selling point. besides, the new 64bit processors are comparable from apple and AMD.

Counterfit
Jan 28, 2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Im amazed that you ignore the video card market on the pc side. you can still have a all in one with a little door on the side that allows this. and the hardware is to slow in Imac. Now where did you get the impression I ignore the PC video card market WHEN I ****ING SURROUNDED BY IT. Everywhere I look I see the newest stuff for PCs, it can't be avoided. Everywhere I look, I see you saying "iMacs/eMacs need to be upgradeable". THEY ARE MEANT FOR PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WANT TO OPEN THEIR COMPUTERS AND UPGRADE THEM. If you want to upgrade the innards, get a tower or an as-yet-nonexistent headless Mac.

LethalWolfe
Jan 28, 2004, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by slipper
i was refering to the apple verus PC contest, but on a PC to PC basis yes gigahertz is a big selling point. besides, the new 64bit processors are comparable from apple and AMD.

They are only comparable to people who know a little something about computers. The average consumer, and the average computer/electronics superstore sales person, will assume the computer w/the faster CPU will be the faster computer. ghz is ghz right? Heck, even PC fanboys that know better will still spout mis-info that ghz matters just because they don't like Macs (this is especially ironic when it comes from AMD fanboys). Over a period of years Intel got the public at large to believe that mhz matters, the bigger then number the faster the machine, and that old wives tale from the 20th century isn't going to go away anytime soon unfortunetly. Heck, what was the first thing Apple said when it released the G5? The fastest personal computer ever.

Even though they shouldn't be hardware specs are given more weight when selling/marketing computers because they can be broken down into easy to quantify, easy to compare numbers ready made for the average joe.

Oh how I long for the days of Apple's "rip.mix.burn" ads. The ads that said, "look at what great/amazing/fun things you can effortlessly do w/our software."


Lethal

Flynnstone
Jan 29, 2004, 12:14 AM
I think we are nieve if all Windows users would switch. Lets group the Windows users:
- Those that don't know better.
- Those that know better, but are too scared to switch.
- Those that would like to switch, but don't know how to go about it.
- And those that are too bloody stupid!

For the latter category, we don't want those people to switch.
Such as this fine fellow :
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57719

"Idiot" is most likely my most conservative statement I have ever made! Perhaps a future candidate for the Darwin awards.

Gyroscope
Jan 29, 2004, 12:17 AM
Well, cheap(affordable) headless G5 based Mac would be great start.

Counterfit
Jan 29, 2004, 12:21 AM
Yes, a G5 in the form of one of those tiny cube-ish PC's would be pretty handy/nifty.

markjones05
Jan 29, 2004, 12:35 AM
I think that lack of games is one thing that was not said that is a big part of it. Aside from that marketing is by far the biggest problem apple has. What the **** are thos iPod commercials. Am i the only one who thinks they are horrible? If you don't know what the **** an iPod is how are you going to know what the commercial is about! They don't even show the thing up close, its shot from 20 feet away. The iPod is gorgeous why wouldnt you show it. Every apple is designed beautifully why would you not advertise commercials for them? It really just comes down to telling the public about Apples. They are relying on word of mouth and those terrible iPod commercials and billboards to bring in switchers? What are they thinking? People dont want to buy what some Apple sales person tells them is just good enough to do the things they want to do. They want something that can do what they couldn't do before. And a computer that can grow woth the technology. The e-mac and imac are completely not upgradable. Thats why they want to hear a Dell rep. spout off everything that they can do and upgrade to with there computer.

gwuMACaddict
Jan 29, 2004, 12:54 AM
nothing


thats right, nothing


apple has had a far superior product for years. i am talking about how easy the interface is, the overall quality of the product, design, appearence, etc...

doesn't matter that it is a better product, and as of late- has better ad campaigns too. people are SHEEP and stick to what they know... sadly, peecees

iMeowbot
Jan 29, 2004, 02:49 AM
Changes? For the past few years they've been quietly doing exactly what they need to do. The strategy doesn't work overnight, but it's a good one nonetheless.

They're producing a platform that IT techies covet -- just peek at the drastic upswing in Apple chat over at places like Slashdot.

Who are those techies going to be in a few years? IT manglers who will have some influence over what technology their organizations buy.

Why did people start buying DOS, then Windows, machines -- which were very much geared to the business market back then -- at home instead of the home computers they used to buy? Because that's what they had at work, and they wanted to be able to use the same stuff at home. Momentum built from there.

This kind of marketing is nothing new, really. DEC got a foothold into the corporations by making sure it was easy for higher ed. to get their equipment. A long time ago, Apple did much the same in K-12. Even the x86 platform got its foothold in that way: the machines were nothing special, but they came from IBM, and that's all that mattered.

Flynnstone
Jan 29, 2004, 04:37 AM
Perhaps that backwards, the IT managers see Apple as a sort of threat. All the flaws in Windows helps increase their "IT empire". Apple and OS X are capable of reducing the empire.

iMeowbot
Jan 29, 2004, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Flynnstone
Perhaps that backwards, the IT managers see Apple as a sort of threat. All the flaws in Windows helps increase their "IT empire". Apple and OS X are capable of reducing the empire.

When I worked in IT, keeping the head count under control translated into more or newer toys to play with. This of course very much depends on the relationship one has with the finance suits. A good ticket to postive results at review time was to boost functionality or service levels at low or negative cost.

Obviously an IT shop needs people with the ability and confidence (or maybe that's insanity) to try such things, so it doesn't work everywhere. Unless I just happened to have an incredibly lucky sequence of contracts, it's far from rare, though.

VIREBEL661
Jan 29, 2004, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by patrick0brien
-mgargan1

Honestly? They need to market what they have. Strongly. Show what it can do. Show the power, the accessibility, the strength.

They need to tell it like it is - focused from a mythkilling perspective.

Yeah, I totally agree - the problem that they have mostly is all of the FUD and misinformation in the windoze community... Many people simply don't know crap about the innovations that Apple has made. They think m$ invented a lot of this stuff...

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 29, 2004, 07:06 AM
Here is an idea, why dont Apple build a computer that you can build your way instead of having to accept things they force on you such as larger monitors or larger hard drives or 2 cpu's when all you need or want is one fast Cpu. Apple does have some nice products but they force you into models you dont need or want. want a slow G4 but need a big drive? forget it. want a fast single Cpu and graphics card? forget it. Apple doesnt cater at all to the customer needs or wants what it does is say we build this model take it as it is. I was just over at Alienware and was amazed how this company will build a machine to fit you. same as Dell. you can choose your CPU, choose your video card,choose hard drive size etc. Apple on the other hand dictates that if you want 1 thing you are going to have to take a lot of other stuff to get it. Every product they sell is like that. hard to get switchers when you dont build the machine to fit each customers needs.

iGav
Jan 29, 2004, 07:11 AM
maybe produce some crap adverts, bundle crap quality consumer gadgets with it, don't worry about Industrial Production Design and make it look crap, reduce overall build quality to something resembling crap, and market it in the same price range as a couple of bags of crap...

works for some computer companies.... :rolleyes:

edesignuk
Jan 29, 2004, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by iGAV
maybe produce some crap adverts, bundle crap quality consumer gadgets with it, don't worry about Industrial Production Design and make it look crap, reduce overall build quality to something resembling crap, and market it in the same price range as a couple of bags of crap...

works for some computer companies.... :rolleyes:
So, to sum it up then..."crap" :p :D :eek:

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 29, 2004, 07:20 AM
who said anything about crap? for example i would like a single 2.0 G5 and ati 9800 in the pro tower. does apple allow this? No why? they play the model game they have played for years instead of selling to the consumer what he or she may want. Stupid and the marketshare declines. this wouldnt be hard to do but Apple like i said forces you into things you may not need or want. just another example. or what about if i wanted a 15 Inch imac but want the 1.25 G5 and fx5200? Nope. another example of apple not selling to the consumer.

iGav
Jan 29, 2004, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by edesignuk
So, to sum it up then..."crap" :p :D :eek:

in a nutshell... yes :p

markjones05
Jan 29, 2004, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Here is an idea, why dont Apple build a computer that you can build your way instead of having to accept things they force on you such as larger monitors or larger hard drives or 2 cpu's when all you need or want is one fast Cpu. Apple does have some nice products but they force you into models you dont need or want. want a slow G4 but need a big drive? forget it. want a fast single Cpu and graphics card? forget it. Apple doesnt cater at all to the customer needs or wants what it does is say we build this model take it as it is. I was just over at Alienware and was amazed how this company will build a machine to fit you. same as Dell. you can choose your CPU, choose your video card,choose hard drive size etc. Apple on the other hand dictates that if you want 1 thing you are going to have to take a lot of other stuff to get it. Every product they sell is like that. hard to get switchers when you dont build the machine to fit each customers needs.


This is so true. There is no reason why they shouldn't do this. Thats why people still are buying Dell. They allow them to customize there own pc to fit there own lifestyle. Even though apple probably has a mac to fit your lifestyle people don't want to accept what a corporation says they need to have or not have with their machine. 1'st step change the way the people can order a machine. step 2- fire those advertisers and get some good ones. Step 3 put some games on there that actually work well so the heavy gamers and the rest can come over.

scem0
Jan 29, 2004, 07:47 AM
The thing apple could change that would contribute the most to a better marketshare would be pricing.

Apple products are just too expensive for the average user. When I had $600 to spend on a computer, guess what I bought? A PC, and I prefer macs! Do you know why? Because for $600, at the time I could get a 2.4GHz pentium 4/512 400MHz DDR/CD-RW/40GB HD when I was hard pressed to find a G4 400/128 PC100/CD-RW/40GB for the same or less cost.

In addition, I can build my own PC for a lot cheaper than I could buy it anywhere else. I think that is why many pro users are reluctant to switch to apple.

Apple just needs to make a machine that can compete both speed and cost wise with a cheap PC.

scem0

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 29, 2004, 07:58 AM
Just like scem-o said, perhaps we may see a new machine this year that will allow the user to configure to suite their needs but knowing apple im not so sure. I think this practice has contributed to the loss of marketshare along with not having software or other componets for mac in any major retail chain. Hard to buy product when you never see it. I hate to admit it but after seeing how i could build my own machine to fit me i have wrestled with a Pc purchase. guess ill wait to see what apple does. by the way that was a nice post Scem-o over at the Mac lovers thread:) mac community is a step up.

Counterfit
Jan 29, 2004, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by markjones05
Thats why they want to hear a Dell rep. spout off everything that they can do and upgrade to with there computer. Which 95% of them never end up upgrading themselves anyway...

And yes, you are the only person who doesn't like those ads :p

peaks
Jan 29, 2004, 08:19 AM
Apple suffers a bit from the same image problem VW does. Any time a brand gets but into a niche market, market share suffers. Apple comes off as being an artsy, intuitive, feely system.

I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, they have a clearly defined market, but it is limited in it's ability for growth. These attributes are not considered "value added" for most people writing the checks.

Right now it seems that less than 5% of internet users are surfing with a mac. So it's very difficult to take mac seriously at this point in terms of getting people to switch.

Perhaps it would be a better strategy for Apple to make OSx available as a cross platform OS, while at the same time permitting Mac hardware to run other OS's. It would appear that eventually all operating systems will be open source anyhow - and Mac has made ground by adopting unix to it's not strecth to think that they are already moving in this direction.

Then again, they have consistently proven that they don't seem to be concerned with overall marketshare. Neither is Sun.

Counterfit
Jan 29, 2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by markjones05
people don't want to accept what a corporation says they need to have or not have with their machine. That's funny, because Dell is doing exactly that now. "Tell us what you want to do, and we'll tell you what you need." They're giving almost complete control to the company. Once again, consumer laziness rears it ugly head...

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 29, 2004, 08:34 AM
Apple marches to its own Drum, they dont care what consumers are doing, what they are buying or what they want. Apple builds it their way and their way only and if you dont like it hit the PC highway. we know that 90% of the world has hit that PC highway. Now can anyone argue that this is good in anyway for Apple? This business philosophy has pushed Mac to the very fringe of the computer world. How many times do you go to a web site that doesnt support quicktime or Mac OS. I see it all the time. who's fault is this. Its Apples. Its almost like a company in constant denial. Look at the ibook fiasco. we have people sending the same product back over and over and they denied they had a problem until a year and a half later? they better start listening to the public and whats going on in the real world instead of thinking they know everything and can lead the consumer around by the nose.

iJon
Jan 29, 2004, 11:13 AM
its not about speed, very few people care about speed, and the ones who do care about speed know enough to make the right decision. one being a lot of people think apple is still the crashing os 7 on performas in the 90's. second being software, we lack a lot of software. people know when they buy a windows machine they will be able to find whatever they want. on the mac they have to hope they can find it, but usually they can, they are just scared to find out. people are just plain uniformed, and apple doesnt advertise enough. there are no commercials on tv to give people a reason to go check out a mac in a reseller or reatail store, simple as that. ipods have helped a ton. almost every ipod problem i encounter now is due to windows problems, and its annoying. but there is one thing i tell all my friends. they come to me and tell me itunes is awesome and the ipod is awesome and it just works so nicely. then i tell them wouldnt it be nice if your whole computer worked that well. gives them some food for thought. i already have many friends who will be purchasing a mac once college time comes around.

iJon

spinner
Jan 29, 2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by scem0
The thing apple could change that would contribute the most to a better marketshare would be pricing.

Apple products are just too expensive for the average user. When I had $600 to spend on a computer, guess what I bought? A PC, and I prefer macs! Do you know why? Because for $600, at the time I could get a 2.4GHz pentium 4/512 400MHz DDR/CD-RW/40GB HD when I was hard pressed to find a G4 400/128 PC100/CD-RW/40GB for the same or less cost.

In addition, I can build my own PC for a lot cheaper than I could buy it anywhere else. I think that is why many pro users are reluctant to switch to apple.

Apple just needs to make a machine that can compete both speed and cost wise with a cheap PC.

scem0

I remember when you got your PC and if I remember correctly it was used off ebay, because at the time I worked at Gateway and even with my employee discount I couldn't buy a machine with similar specs brand new.

Do we really want Apple to sell a $499 loss leader? It sure hasn't helped Gateway win back any marketshare from Dell or helped their financial status so what makes you guys think that Apple will do any different?

I am quite honestly tired of hearing how everyone can BUILD a cheaper system. If building your own system is so popular and easy then why do PC companies even exist? Because very few people know how or want to do it. Just like very few people can or will program their VCR. Of the people I talked to on the phone while I worked in sales at Gateway, maybe 2-5% had even remotely enough knowledge to build a system. So please, drop the whole I can build a system cheaper BS.

spinner
Jan 29, 2004, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by iJon
its not about speed, very few people care about speed, and the ones who do care about speed know enough to make the right decision. one being a lot of people think apple is still the crashing os 7 on performas in the 90's. second being software, we lack a lot of software. people know when they buy a windows machine they will be able to find whatever they want. on the mac they have to hope they can find it, but usually they can, they are just scared to find out. people are just plain uniformed, and apple doesnt advertise enough. there are no commercials on tv to give people a reason to go check out a mac in a reseller or reatail store, simple as that. ipods have helped a ton. almost every ipod problem i encounter now is due to windows problems, and its annoying. but there is one thing i tell all my friends. they come to me and tell me itunes is awesome and the ipod is awesome and it just works so nicely. then i tell them wouldnt it be nice if your whole computer worked that well. gives them some food for thought. i already have many friends who will be purchasing a mac once college time comes around.

iJon

I think iJon is exactly right, the iPod and iTunes have made waves in the PC community and people are taking notice. It is these kind of inroads that Apple needs more then some piece of crap $499 box. Now with the VT supercomputer going to xServes, other areas such gov and corp infrastructure are taking notice. Macs aren't just toys for artist any more.

rueyeet
Jan 29, 2004, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Apple builds it their way and their way only and if you dont like it hit the PC highway. we know that 90% of the world has hit that PC highway. Being able to build their own computer is not the reason 90%+ of the world is using PCs, because about 90% of that 90% wouldn't know how, or would be afraid to try. Build-your-own PCs are just as much of a niche market as Macs, or Alienware would be shipping more PCs than Dell or HP.

It's also true, as jxyama and Inpspector Lee both point out, that retailers like Dell do a bait-and-switch, and their stuff can end up costing near as much as a Mac or more, once you add in all the options and extras into your configuration.

Inspector Lee is also right about the xenophobia: peaks posts that "Right now it seems that less than 5% of internet users are surfing with a mac. So it's very difficult to take mac seriously at this point in terms of getting people to switch." How does how many people are using your computer of choice have anything to do with choosing the better computer?

Don't give me the old compatibility wheeze, either....remember, all those cheapo "A Thousand Apps on This CD! Bargain Value!!" applications that you buy on a disc for $10 at Office Depot get included in the Windows software tally. I can't think of any task on a PC that the Mac doesn't have a perfectly creditable software alternative for. Can you?

And the websurfing glitches are caused by Microsoft's "embrace and destroy...oops, I mean extend" philosophy of adding non-standard coding to their Webpage-building products. They get away with that because they're a monopoly, and nothing short of major market share will fix that for Apple (or Microsoft's destruction at the hands of Linux, which wouldn't be bad either).

Oh, and the iPod commercials DO tell you what they're about, markjones05, unless a person can't read the big "iPod + iTunes" that fills the screen midway through the ad.

....Okay, that's it, I need lunch. I'm getting tetchy. :o

CmdrLaForge
Jan 29, 2004, 01:49 PM
I guess its not so much a hardware problem but mindsetting.

Most people I knew think about Mac that they are
1) very expensive
2) no Apps available
3) no games available

What keeps them from looking at the Mac at all.

That means: Apple should change there marketing. If I could decide anything at apple the next move I would make (with that much money on the accounts) I would buy a game company and then let them develop games for the Mac and port them later to the PC.

mgargan1
Jan 30, 2004, 09:18 AM
working at gateway as well, i see people coming in saying that their computer crashed, and they want the fasted computer ever... oh yea, and the don't want to pay more than $600 for a computer. So of course they want to play games, and do everything that a $2000 computer does really well. Well, when you buy from an OEM, that's just not going to happen. Yea, you can build your machine... however, I have people coming in asking me, "is there truely a difference between a "celerioun" (not celeron) and a pentium? " And these are the people that wants the best! Apple is not even in their minds when buying a computer because their price is too high, and to tell you the truth, i don't think apple wants their business... those customers are more likely to call tech support over stupid problems that they caused themselves. Also, on a $499 computer, there is no margin, so why sell it?

And about the customizing dell thing? Try to get a 2400 system with a P4 w/ 800MHz FSB... it isn't possible... or try making a XPS with a P4 with a 533MHz FSB... it aint happening. Also try to get a 2400 with a SATA harddrive, aint happening, or a XPS with an UATA hardrive, not possible. Or try putting 400MHz DDR ram in a 2400... so don't say that Dell will give you exactally what you want. Yes, they customize a lot of their product... but Dell is not the God of computers, and they don't do everything that you might want. Oh yea... try putting dual harddrives in a 4600... :)

iJon
Jan 30, 2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by spinner
I think iJon is exactly right, the iPod and iTunes have made waves in the PC community and people are taking notice. It is these kind of inroads that Apple needs more then some piece of crap $499 box. Now with the VT supercomputer going to xServes, other areas such gov and corp infrastructure are taking notice. Macs aren't just toys for artist any more.
exactly, and it will only get better. dell is s***tin their pants cause hp said you know what, instead of wasting out money and instead of copying apple lets just team up with them, paint it a different color, and everyone is happy. what i am hoping is this ipod deal will bring good deals with printers being bundled in promotions through out the year at some good prices. also big purchases like VT, Maine and other schools, along with the government card reader support in Panther are all great signs that apple is progressing forward. once they drop that ipod mini to 199 they will just get better. ive said this all throughout the year, but i honestly havent heard anything bad about apple and their actions lately, only bad thing i really have heard are the logic board problems in the ibooks, but we can all see now that its being taken care of.

iJon

spinner
Jan 30, 2004, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by mgargan1
working at gateway as well, i see people coming in saying that their computer crashed, and they want the fasted computer ever... oh yea, and the don't want to pay more than $600 for a computer. So of course they want to play games, and do everything that a $2000 computer does really well. Well, when you buy from an OEM, that's just not going to happen. Yea, you can build your machine... however, I have people coming in asking me, "is there truely a difference between a "celerioun" (not celeron) and a pentium? " And these are the people that wants the best! Apple is not even in their minds when buying a computer because their price is too high, and to tell you the truth, i don't think apple wants their business... those customers are more likely to call tech support over stupid problems that they caused themselves. Also, on a $499 computer, there is no margin, so why sell it?

Stop that now you're giving me flashbacks! ;)

The funniest things I ever heard a processor called was Celulite, Celeroid, Pedulum 4.

Edot
Jan 30, 2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by markjones05
This is so true. There is no reason why they shouldn't do this. Thats why people still are buying Dell. They allow them to customize there own pc to fit there own lifestyle. Even though apple probably has a mac to fit your lifestyle people don't want to accept what a corporation says they need to have or not have with their machine. 1'st step change the way the people can order a machine. step 2- fire those advertisers and get some good ones. Step 3 put some games on there that actually work well so the heavy gamers and the rest can come over.

I can see this for pro machines, but consumers don't want to have to learn what a 4-pin IEEE 1394 PCI card is. Apple makes it very simple to purchase a computer and use it without knowing what is going on underneath. They look good are easy to use. This is also reflected in their stores and online store. They don't want consumers to have to get a BS in Computer Science in order to purchase the machine. Besides allowing that much customization would not allow Apple to produce such STUNNING case designs. Nothing as small and attractive as the Imac exists. It would also increase there manufacturing costs. I think there is enough customization at the consumer level. The Powermacs could use some more, but people who buy G5's usually buy 3rd party upgrades themselves anyway.

markjones05
Jan 30, 2004, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by Edot
I can see this for pro machines, but consumers don't want to have to learn what a 4-pin IEEE 1394 PCI card is. Apple makes it very simple to purchase a computer and use it without knowing what is going on underneath. They look good are easy to use. This is also reflected in their stores and online store. They don't want consumers to have to get a BS in Computer Science in order to purchase the machine. Besides allowing that much customization would not allow Apple to produce such STUNNING case designs. Nothing as small and attractive as the Imac exists. It would also increase there manufacturing costs. I think there is enough customization at the consumer level. The Powermacs could use some more, but people who buy G5's usually buy 3rd party upgrades themselves anyway.

You definately have a point there. But nobody needs to know what a 4-pin IEEE 1394 PCI card is in order to buy a dell. At minimum allow someone to change the monitor size to whatever thy want on the imac. Or allow them to decide weather they want a super drive or combo drive without having to to buy a completly different model. Some of the chpices you are forced to make when buying a mac are flat out rediculous and cost way to much money for something you dont need. If you want to buy a 15" imac and want more speed but dont need a 17" display or superdrive your **** outta luck. There is just no reason for this in my opinion.

Powerbook G5
Jan 30, 2004, 10:05 PM
That's how it was for the 15" PowerBook for me. I wanted all the features like FW 800, backlight keyboard, the better ATA/100, BT, etc, but the 15" didn't but the 17" did. I didn't want a 17" PowerBook, I wanted the 15", so I ended up having to wait for most of the year to get it. I am glad that I waited, but I bet there were so many sales that went to other brands from people who couldn't wait and didn't want the insanely huge 17" PowerBook.

bannedagain
Jan 30, 2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by mgargan1
What CPU clock speed do you think would be necessary to make even more PC people to switch to the Mac. I think the G5 is doing great, but the Athlon FX and Athlon 64 are great processors. I think that if Apple would release a system with 2.4-2.6GHz, or maybe quad machines? I think the OS is world class, and i do agree that the G5 is very fast, but i don't think it's fast enough to make people wanna switch as fast as they are.

While speed is a big issue it's not the whole kit and koboodle.

I would buy a Mac if
a) I had lots of disposable income:D

save that these are the improvements I would suggest:
Standard PCI 33MHz Slots (2 or 3)
At least 2 optical bays
Atl east 1 3.5" Drive bay for a zip drive, etc..
The abblity to buy the Processors and Motherboard without anything else
The OS to be written for x86processors.
A substancial drop in prices
DirectX, Save that more games written on OpenGL
If apple would stop trying to palm off 3-4 year old graphics tech on there lower end machines.

Powerbook G5
Jan 30, 2004, 11:18 PM
Yeah, that would be pretty sweet to be able to drop a Radeon 9800 into an iMac and such.

bannedagain
Jan 30, 2004, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Edot
Besides allowing that much customization would not allow Apple to produce such STUNNING case designs. Nothing as small and attractive as the Imac exists. It would also increase there manufacturing costs. I think there is enough customization at the consumer level. The Powermacs could use some more, but people who buy G5's usually buy 3rd party upgrades themselves anyway.

"I think there is enough Custimazation at the consumer level"
I just fell off my chair

If the look of the case is your reason for buying a mac I pitty you.

bannedagain
Jan 30, 2004, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Yeah, that would be pretty sweet to be able to drop a Radeon 9800 into an iMac and such.
Was that in response to my comment?

Powerbook G5
Jan 30, 2004, 11:29 PM
Yeah. It would be nice, but that would just mean more money needing to be spent by Apple since the gpu is a part of the motherboard on computers like the iMac and eMac, so I know that won't be happening. I think that's a good part of the problem, it just means a greater cost to make separate kinds in stock if they were to offer different choices, and most businesses like keeping those costs down. It's the same reason why so many car companies don't allow for the option of having a nice manual offering in many popular cars since it just means the cost of having to produce both an auto and a manual and they just don't want to have the extra cost even if there are those out there that would like the option.

bannedagain
Jan 30, 2004, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Yeah. It would be nice, but that would just mean more money needing to be spent by Apple since the gpu is a part of the motherboard on computers like the iMac and eMac, so I know that won't be happening. I think that's a good part of the problem, it just means a greater cost to make separate kinds in stock if they were to offer different choices, and most businesses like keeping those costs down. It's the same reason why so many car companies don't allow for the option of having a nice manual offering in many popular cars since it just means the cost of having to produce both an auto and a manual and they just don't want to have the extra cost even if there are those out there that would like the option.

I hear what you are saying and tend to agree.

And about that "most businesses like keeping those costs down" part, would you suggest that is why mast businesses around the world opt for a x86bassed machine vs an apple mac?

Powerbook G5
Jan 30, 2004, 11:44 PM
I think the x86 issue arises more from the fact that Microsoft writes Windows for x86 so that's what the industry works with. Heaven forbid that Microsoft would actually have to write a brand new set of code instead of reusing it over and over.

bannedagain
Jan 30, 2004, 11:46 PM
you avoided my question

Powerbook G5
Jan 30, 2004, 11:51 PM
I misinterpreted your question and thought you meant why they design their products around x86, but yes, that is probably a good reason. It costs more to purchase new software and train people to use it than that of the of the hardware itself. When I bought my new PowerBook, I was already using a Mac for years, but I had to buy OS X software to replace my OS 9 stuff. Let me tell you, just replacing simple stuff like Office can be a small fortune. Just imagine a large corporation having to buy a dozen $1000+ programs, then paying for the training, then paying for the hardware on top of that.

Counterfit
Jan 31, 2004, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by bannedagain
Standard PCI 33MHz Slots (2 or 3)/[quote]So a slower standard then? I thought the point of making computers was for things to be faster?
[quote]At least 2 optical bays
Atl east 1 3.5" Drive bay for a zip drive, etc..Fair enoughThe abblity to buy the Processors and Motherboard without anything elseWhy not just license the clones too while you're at it?The OS to be written for x86processors.HAHAHAHA ad nauseumA substancial drop in prices As long as the quality doesn't drop...DirectX, Save that more games written on OpenGL That's up to M$ and the game developers.If apple would stop trying to palm off 3-4 year old graphics tech on there lower end machines. pick a response™: A.) You get what you pay for B.) The target market for the low end doesn't care that much about gpu stuff C.) Can you say "Integrated Intel Extreme Graphics"?