No FireWire in MacBooks [Archive] - Page 2

thefox84

Oct 16, 2008, 05:00 PM

I'm a college student with a Black Macbook (2.2, 4 gb, 160 gb HDD, FIREWIRE PORT) and I have a minidv camera with which I make movies. Not just for fun, for class and for my work with my university. I only bought the Black Premium cause I got it right after they boosted the specs(for the last time on all plastic ones) and the refurb(aka, the canceled orders for when the new ones came out) only cost $50 more($1049, now thats a deal) compared to the white one and it came with 40 gigs more HDD space(I even got 2 gigs of ram for free!). It was a no brainer, and to be honest I absolutely love this computer. It's fast, its easy to use, it runs Final Cut Express very smoothly, as well as other programs simultaneously. So what I'm saying is that for quite literally less than the cost of a student discount Macbook Pro(at the time, $1799) I got a great computer, camera, FIREWIRE cable, extra HDD, and Camera to make high quality videos. My next step, with the upgrade of Final Cut Studio thanks to my university was to get the same affordable, ultra-portable, video editing suite that I had been used to with 3d capability(thanks Nvidia!)without shelling out the extra money for the Pro. But no. Apple instead makes their trackpad fancier, the laptop "greener", and constructs it in an all new fantastic way! Thanks Apple! Thanks for ditching the firewire port which is so critical to so many young filmmakers such as myself, for not making the laptop even slightly more affordable given current economic conditions, and making your middle of the line notebook CPU slower than that of my current computer purchased way back in late February.

You'll get my $1300(hopefully $1200 with my student discount) when you put the damn proprietary connection that you invented and so many people use, firewire, back into your best selling computer.

Shurran

Oct 16, 2008, 05:42 PM

So you're saying that target disk is no more on the new macbooks?

Yes, Target Disk Mode will not work on the new MacBooks.

How dumb is that!?!

abrownman

Oct 16, 2008, 06:46 PM

Milk*is*tasty

Oct 16, 2008, 07:46 PM

Good for you. The more people sending feedback to Apple, the better. This needs to be fixed.

bking1000

Oct 16, 2008, 07:48 PM

I joined MacRumors today just so that I could vent and show support for you guys.

I was waiting and ready to buy one of the new MBs the moment they were announced. I did a double-take, just to make sure that it had Firewire, and then stopped dead in my tracks.

I started looking for answers, and found this thread.

I reamed out Apple at: http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

It is my hope that this company still listens to its supporters.

They do listen. They have in the past. This might be a tough one, though, because if you've seen the breakdown pics yet of the MB, the motherboard actually stops short, and there is no room to put a FW port. They'd have to redesign the whole thing.

I wonder if they'll drop FW from the iMacs next, to get Pros to move to the Mac Pro?

MrGando

Oct 16, 2008, 08:38 PM

That would be something ... apple crippling all their models.

I have thought of buying another Laptop and hackingtosh it. ( I study software engineering so it's not a big deal for me ) . but I have always shown support for apple and their policies, and I like to have the real deal, no problems.

I already sent my feedback, hope all you guys do it , and tell others to do it too.

Oh, and since I'm really tired of people saying : USB Is 480 mb/sec .... that is "true" , but in a reasonable bigger transfer , the speed of the USB decreases over time a lot faster than firewire. You guys who say that PLEASE do your homework before looking like *******s. ( sorry for the word , but it's the right one )

ok so

USB 2.0 Transfer
http://www.ixbt.com/storage/usb-to-fw/w2k-direct.png

FireWire 400 Transfer
http://www.ixbt.com/storage/usb-to-fw/w2kusb2.png

and just for the record.... some SCSI transfer

http://www.ixbt.com/storage/usb-to-fw/98-fw.png

Source :

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/usb20vsfirewire/
This is windows 2k , maybe with some new charts with the actual drivers we could check it out better.

I'm sure someone can come up with even better sources. But it's true. It's not my imagination ( or other people's imagination ).

now a quote:

"At first glance it would appear that USB 2.0 is even faster than FireWire (400); however speed is not the only issue when it comes to DV. One serious issue with USB 2.0 is that it can not guarantee a specified data transfer rate. This is due to USB 2.0 being a master-slave technology, which means it needs a computer's CPU to coordinate the appropriate data transfers. While not a problem when dealing with low demand peripherals such as Web cams, scanners, printers etc, digital video requires dependable performance to avoid dropping video frames.

FireWire is a much more independent technology in that it works in a peer-to-peer relationship. For this reason, many professional DV users are now able to download their video from a DV camcorder to an external hard drive without the use of a PC. Finally, and most importantly, FireWire delivers data consistently at a specific rate. If you want to work with video, even to edit the family movie, go with FireWire."

Source: here (http://wiki.marandcustomsolutions.com/space/USB+vs.+Firewire)

For NON PRO stuff , firewire can be used , of course, ( read NON PRO VIDEO AUDIO IMAGE EDITING ETC ).

EDIT:

Here (http://www.barefeats.com/usb2.html) are some charts with some Apple stuff comparisson:

hempcamp

Oct 16, 2008, 09:28 PM

I love Firewire and at first I was shocked at its omission from the MacBook, but it's beginning to sink it now that as a design decision it just wasn't worth putting it in.

I'm ready to concede defeat. Good thing my external drives have eSATA, FW400, FW800 and USB 2 and that I didn't invest in the Apogee Duet yet. Not that I plan on getting the new MacBook anytime soon -- I just got a used PB for portable use and my iMac is scheduled to be replaced next.

My hope is that Apogee comes up with a great USB2 sound device like the Duet -- which until now is in a class of its own for style & integration with system.

--Chris

unchecked

Oct 16, 2008, 09:35 PM

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/16/jobs_responds_to_outrage_over_macbooks_missing_firewire.html

"Actually, all of the new HD camcorders of the past few years use USB 2," Jobs supposedly wrote in an email, a copy of which was posted to the popular Flickr image sharing website.

Anyways, does Apple have a history of listening to feedback and making revisions based on them?

khunsanook

Oct 16, 2008, 10:32 PM

A friend of mine just picked up a new MB. he uses firewire for audio recording. He doesn't pour over forums and news like we do and unfortunately assumed the new MBs had firewire. He was a bit shocked when he got home and started up the new machine. Ouch. He obviously needs to do a return and buy the Pro (he's p1ssed). So what's the deal - restocking fee? or straight up exchange and more cash?

Apple so screwed us on this! I've sent firm complaint messages to the feedback link and sjobs@apple.com.

jrlcopy

Oct 17, 2008, 01:48 AM

Oh, and since I'm really tired of people saying : USB Is 480 mb/sec .... that is "true" , but in a reasonable bigger transfer , the speed of the USB decreases over time a lot faster than firewire. You guys who say that PLEASE do your homework before looking like *******s. ( sorry for the word , but it's the right one )

Haha, now I have the charts to prove what I had been saying all along and was right about it.. haha.

kubricks

Oct 17, 2008, 02:43 AM

Likewise, there are a lot of good audio interfaces for musicians that work well over USB2, such as those from M-Audio, Edirol, and MOTU, like the 828MkII.

All really is not lost. At least not completely.

Again, it's still stupid that they made that decision, and I bet on the rev b they'll put it back, just as they did with the FW800 on the previous gen MBP.

It's a big bummer if you already own FW equipment too, such as those of you with the nice Canon prosumer stuff.

But my Presonus Firebox would be useless. Now, I was considering upgrading to an 8-input XLR-equipped box anyway, which for me would mean either the MOTU 828 or M-Audio FastTrack Ultra 8R. But that's besides the point. People should want to upgrade, not be forced to upgrade their equipment.

I also have a Firebox. There are 2 real issues here (for musicians) with Firewire being dropped from the Macbook.

#1

NO ONE in pro audio would recommend or buy a USB audio card over a firewire card. NO ONE. They are absolutely inferior in almost every aspect. People own EXPENSIVE firewire audio cards. Aside from the MOTU, I doubt there is much on the market for a 10 I/O USB solution and there is good reason why there isn't.

#2

The size of the Macbook Pro. I would have bought the 2.4ghz Macbook had it had firewire. It's 1599. For 400 more I can have the Macbook pro. Sure it's a bit crap to shell out an extra 400 for the upgrade just for a measly port, but it's not entirely outrageous considering what you get. The problem is, I don't want a 15" notebook. I want a new 13", powerful, aluminum current gen firewire equipped notebook for mobile recording and production, and more importantly for live gigs.

Yes we are in the minority here compared to the college kids, but ffs it's a 1cm sized port that costs 2 bucks. I might sound like a Pro, but my pocket book is starving student.

^squirrel^

Oct 17, 2008, 02:52 AM

I use Target Disk Mode to repair the Macs that i work on.

What are the chances of us seeing USB Target Mode? If not, i'll go get myself an old MBP.

Eidorian

Oct 17, 2008, 02:54 AM

I use Target Disk Mode to repair the Macs that i work on.

What are the chances of us seeing USB Target Mode? If not, i'll go get myself an old MBP.From what I've researched Target Disk Mode is only on Macs with FireWire.

Lets remember that the Power Mac G3 B&W doesn't count sadly. ;)

toke lahti

Oct 17, 2008, 03:31 AM

4: make yourself a hackintosh, and slowly migrate to another system instead of being locked in.
5: Cut your losses, and get the hell out of the locked down and limited system the Apple platform has become (before these new MBs/MBPs, they were merely "fast becoming", but with this they are close to the finish line). Switch.
Switch to Windows? Scaaryy...

toke lahti

Oct 17, 2008, 03:38 AM

They do listen. They have in the past. This might be a tough one, though, because if you've seen the breakdown pics yet of the MB, the motherboard actually stops short, and there is no room to put a FW port. They'd have to redesign the whole thing.

By shortening the battery for 1cm, there would be plenty of space for 2 fw & one more usb and standard DP, etc...
It's not hard to redesign, but when Ive's target has been "leave all useless away" and Steve want's fw needers to buy MBP, there will be no motivation for that.
There's also 2 sides that are not used at all and dvd does not occupy the whole right side...

toke lahti

Oct 17, 2008, 03:42 AM

Here (http://www.barefeats.com/usb2.html) are some charts with some Apple stuff comparisson:
Yep, usb2 is about 20MBps, fw400 40MBps, fw 60MBps, esata 80MBps.
Sad that company that once was leading the technology is now the last one...

Maybe they really should free the OS X to all pcs...

Chaos123x

Oct 17, 2008, 04:11 AM

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/33/l_612bcf1fef674394828a4474f4132cd7.jpg

Dybbuk

Oct 17, 2008, 04:24 AM

^ this owns

Kilamite

Oct 17, 2008, 05:27 AM

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/16/jobs_responds_to_outrage_over_macbooks_missing_firewire.html

Thing is, that article makes it sound like a FireWire 400 port would be expensive and push the cost of the machine upwards by a significant amount. It wouldn't. Had Apple kept FireWire 400 in mind, they could easily have put it into the logic board. It doesn't need that much more space, and there is plenty of room for it.

Apple had to weigh several variables, including the cost of incorporating another port to its entry level laptop that many of its new users wouldn't even recognize. After all, half of the buyers Apple is selling to in its retail stores are new to the Mac.

Yet they introduced a big multi-touch trackpad with no click button. That is going to baffle and confuse the heck out of switchers more than a tiny wee FireWire 400 port is, which they will probably need at some point down the line.

khunsanook

Oct 17, 2008, 06:42 AM

Yet they introduced a big multi-touch trackpad with no click button. That is going to baffle and confuse the heck out of switchers more than a tiny wee FireWire 400 port is, which they will probably need at some point down the line.

The whole trackpad clicks like a button. (http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/10/14/answers-about-the-new-buttonless-macbook-trackpad)

iOrlando

Oct 17, 2008, 06:58 AM

from appleinsider...

cruelmemory

Oct 17, 2008, 07:06 AM

I agree. It is a bummer, and there's no real benefit to leaving it off, unless they intend upon artificially forcing people to the MBP. It is a bad move on Apple's part.

I think that is the plan. I mean, with the new nvidia graphics chipset out there for the new MB line, they are pushing gaming compatibility so the low-end gamer market got a new machine. In order to get people to WANT the MPB over the MB, they needed a bargaining chip besides 13" vs. 15" and separate GPU(+ integrated) vs. integrated. So they made the choice to use FW as a deal breaker: "Do you have FW devices? Then you're gonna want a MBP."

The tech/music/film crowd want their FW!

jc1350

Oct 17, 2008, 07:21 AM

From http://apcmag.com/top_10_things_you_didnt_know_about_the_new_macbook.htm

"According to Geoff Winder, Product Manager for Hardware at Apple Australia, Target Disk Mode relied upon part of the Firewire standard, which isn't replicated in USB.

Winder said that Apple now believes that there is no real need for Target Disk Mode anyway — there are alternative methods for everything people would want to do with it"

About HDD camcorders: I don't understand WHY someone would want them. HDDs are sensitive machines when running - the space between the heads and platters are smaller than the height of a finger print. Most people hand-hold cameras of this size (and monopods/tripods are of no real use when visiting vacation spots), so you increase the chance of ruining the disk.

And, I checked my camcorder (minidv) - while it does have a USB port, it is only for still pictures. Video must be transfered either through the firewire or, *gasp* the analog RCA composite ports.

I use a mac-mini for my desktop - I wonder of future models on that will also lose firewire. I was considering my next desktop to be an imac anyway - hopefully they won't drop firewire from that line.

havoc41

Oct 17, 2008, 08:22 AM

Wanted to add my voice to this thread. Apple has designed me out of the Macbook by removing Firewire despite the conversion cables (which is asking for latency issues) and all the rest.

All of my audio and video gear is Firewire, By removing Firewire Apple has forced me to tack on at least 500 bucks and consider buying a laptop (or other hardware) that i do not want: a previous rev Macbook, a 15" Pro, different recording interfaces, etc.

Where i was excited to dive into an upgrade from my Mini and become portable, i am now being forced to reconsider the way i do business and work with an out of date machine despite loving Apple products: OS/Software and Hardware

I will therefore limp along and eventually be taking my business elsewhere unless Apple pulls a rabbit out of their hat and somehow makes it possible for me to connect Firewire to the Macbook with a supported proprietary solution.

Shurran

Oct 17, 2008, 09:28 AM

Welcome to the club Havoc. Considering this isn't even an Audio/Video forum, there are lots of people posting who use firewire daily and like many of the features of the MacBook. I just hope Apple will re-release the MacBook soon with real features that many (although not all) people want.

Wild-Bill

Oct 17, 2008, 10:05 AM

Sdashiki

Oct 17, 2008, 11:20 AM

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/33/l_612bcf1fef674394828a4474f4132cd7.jpg

my new avatar!!!

carve

Oct 17, 2008, 01:25 PM

To be honest, I have NEVER used firewire on my iBook before.

beret9987

Oct 17, 2008, 01:30 PM

Sdashiki

Oct 17, 2008, 02:04 PM

To be honest, I have NEVER used firewire on my iBook before.

but if you got a camcorder or something which was FW, wouldnt you want the ability to use it without being forced to shell out hundreds more than you need, and an adapter you could lose?

JPS

Oct 17, 2008, 02:48 PM

Two-part question:

Okay, so the new MB isn't Firewire-capable. If I bought one and wanted to transfer the data now on my Black Book's drive to my new MB, could I conceivably do this with Ethernet and Migration Assistant?

I have a FireLite hard-drive for backups that only runs via Firewire. Are there hard-drives available that will run with a Mac via USB? I know that Firelites don't.

Thanks in advance.

Kilamite

Oct 17, 2008, 10:08 PM

1. Okay, so the new MB isn't Firewire-capable. If I bought one and wanted to transfer the data now on my Black Book's drive to my new MB, could I conceivably do this with Ethernet and Migration Assistant?

2. I have a FireLite hard-drive for backups that only runs via Firewire. Are there hard-drives available that will run with a Mac via USB? I know that Firelites don't.

1. You could use a Time Machine backup, or transfer over your network (wireless or ethernet connected).

2. Nearly every hard drive that has FireWire has USB 2.0 too.

JPS

Oct 18, 2008, 08:42 AM

Not the FireLite, I'm afraid.

Kilamite

Oct 18, 2008, 08:45 AM

Not the FireLite, I'm afraid.

Yes, you already confirmed that! You asked if there was hard drives that run on a Mac that are just USB! There is tons!

Let's Sekuhara!

Oct 18, 2008, 01:02 PM

OMG that illustration is hilarious! The only part you still need to include is Apple getting zapped back.

"Don't whiz on the electric fence..." Or Firewire for that matter. :D

Let's Sekuhara!

Oct 18, 2008, 01:27 PM

To be honest, I have NEVER used firewire on my iBook before.

Yes, we understand that not everybody needs Firewire.

There are tons of Apple technologies I don't use:
- Automator
- iWeb
- Spaces
- CoverFlow in Finder
- video output jack
...to name just a few.

It doesn't mean that I don't think other people might find them useful.

But hell, by Apple's line of logic I suppose we can just get rid of the 1/8" Mic input and audio output jacks too - you can substitute these with USB instead! We can probably even use USB for video output so let's do away with the video output!

...it just doesn't make sense.

I'll point out one more observation:
If conserving space was the reason Firewire was excluded, there is another smaller Firewire port - the kind that PCs use. I think it's FW400 only, but at least it's something.

emac82

Oct 18, 2008, 06:00 PM

Yeah if space was an issue, they could have put in a 4-pin Firewire connector, which is what Windows laptops use.

I know not everyone uses firewire, so those people don't understand. Like others have mentioned, when the floppy drive, and dial up modem were removed, there were other alternatives available to those who needed it, like USB Modems...

It would be like HP, Toshiba, Dell, etc going strictly to DVI ports on their laptops, and not having an DVI to VGA adapter available. It would be stupid, since sooooo many monitors are VGA.

I have an ADS Pyro AV Link that cost me around $250 a few years ago. It connects to my computer via firewire. I used it a couple times of year, and one reason is because my HDD Video Cam won't connect with iMovie via USB, so I use the ADS to connect my Video Cam, and it connects to my MacBook that way.

They should have put a Firewire 800 port at least...then you could at least convert to FW400.

butterfly0fdoom

Oct 18, 2008, 06:58 PM

Yeah if space was an issue, they could have put in a 4-pin Firewire connector, which is what Windows laptops use.

No, if you look at the tear down, there's no space for any extra port unless another port is sacrificed.

cube

Oct 18, 2008, 06:59 PM

No, if you look at the tear down, there's no space for any extra port unless another port is sacrificed.

You don't have to sacrifice anything. Putting ports in the back is not a sin.

Chaos123x

Oct 18, 2008, 07:00 PM

No, if you look at the tear down, there's no space for any extra port unless another port is sacrificed.

Thats because they designed that way.

I could of sworn all other Apple laptops could fit firewire on them.

Avon B7

Oct 18, 2008, 08:28 PM

For illustrative purposesthis is a link (http://lists.apple.com/archives/Firewire/2008/Oct/msg00003.html) to a message on Apple's Firewire mailing list. The reaction of the company's president pretty much sums up what a lot of people are feeling.

This move by Apple has provoked a reaction across the board that has literally gone off the charts - and Apple remains silent.

Luckily they can't remain silent for too long as this issue is bound to come up at Tuesday's Conference Call.

jigo

Oct 18, 2008, 08:57 PM

Thats because they designed that way.

No doubt it was purposely designed out. Not for space reasons.

I'd rather have them get rid of the ethernet port than firewire. At least I could then get a dongle if I really needed ethernet.

Eidorian

Oct 18, 2008, 09:21 PM

Aniki

Oct 18, 2008, 09:29 PM

mickbab

Oct 18, 2008, 09:31 PM

How disappointing.

Looks like I'll have to spend the extra bucks on getting the Pro.

What a shame that Apple is making us pay $400 LESS to get FireWire...

Unbelievable...

:p

Aniki

Oct 18, 2008, 09:34 PM

Also: In The Refurb Store The Old Mbp With Firewire 400, 800, Usb, Express Card, 2.4 Ghz, Etc Is $1350 If You Really Need It For Same Price As Macbook.

Aldaris

Oct 19, 2008, 12:04 AM

Just to toss this out there- looking in Apple's CREATIVE PRO section it's laudable to see how many profiles had listed macbooks in there equipment lists... Wow... even Pro's have been using macbooks...

Seriously it's not a Pro/Consumer issue here- it's a valuable port to both sides... why not just put 1 FireWire, and 1 USB, and then if anyone needs more of either they can get a hub...

(Although I have no link, I have heard that you can get FireWire Hubs too...)

Benedict

Oct 19, 2008, 04:08 AM

No doubt it was purposely designed out. Not for space reasons.

I'd rather have them get rid of the ethernet port than firewire. At least I could then get a dongle if I really needed ethernet.

I need ethernet for my Euphonix mixing console. Can you provide more info about this dongle please? A link to the product will do.

Benedict

Oct 19, 2008, 04:12 AM

djellison

Oct 19, 2008, 04:25 AM

so I could care less.

You mean you COULDN'T care less.

Saying you could care less, means you actually care about it.

kubricks

Oct 19, 2008, 04:29 AM

all my stuff (all cameras, externals, 360 controller for pc) are all usb, so I could care less. I think it's great they put no firewire, since it gives more space on the left side of your comp, and the battery life their is great as well.

Space for what? Shiny metal? You are arguing for the exclusion of a 2cm port that was on previous revisions of Macbooks, that many people depend on and cannot do what they do without one, because it gives you more shiny metal on the side?

I guess these retarded responses against firewire are due to the influx of new users drawn to the new Macbook lineup sans firewire. Because it was really pissing people off I guess. They don't even know what that hole does I guess. That means it's not important to anyone and it's difficult to understand how anyone could complain.

There is an obvious issue here from consumers. Apple are deleting threads on the official forums about this, audio and video forums have multi page threads on this issue, even hardware developers that Apple partners with (Apogee) are pissed, software devs are wondering wtf is going on, and even Apple people are saying they don't understand this move.

Imagine what Apogee is saying right now after making the Duet, which seemed specifically marketed at the budget audio crowd?

I'm glad you have a collection of inferior USB gear. That doesn't mean this isn't an issue for others.

cube

Oct 19, 2008, 05:06 AM

Also: In The Refurb Store The Old Mbp With Firewire 400, 800, Usb, Express Card, 2.4 Ghz, Etc Is $1350 If You Really Need It For Same Price As Macbook.

Only in USA. In other places Mac refurbs are overpriced (and NOT because of included VAT).

Kilamite

Oct 19, 2008, 07:05 AM

...even hardware developers that Apple partners with (Apogee) are pissed, software devs are wondering wtf is going on, and even Apple people are saying they don't understand this move.

Imagine what Apogee is saying right now after making the Duet, which seemed specifically marketed at the budget audio crowd.

I can imagine - Apogee's equipment is popular amoung the Pros, but since they are aiming decent equipment at the consumer market, they'd be pissed off to hell that Apple has eliminated a required port on their consumer MacBook.

Ah well. Maybe Apple will learn a lesson from this if the new MacBook no longer continues to be their "best selling Mac" and sales for the refurb MacBook's are miles ahead of the new gen.

StingerT125

Oct 19, 2008, 07:17 AM

I don't have any firewire equipment, but I still don't like the idea that the port was removed. It reduces my possible options in the future. I may never have needed it, but why remove?

New users may not need it, but people who already have investments in FW equipment now have lost the option to use the new MBs.

chrisiw

Oct 19, 2008, 07:41 AM

I will not be upgrading my MacBook now! the new one is way over priced, no firewire, no Blue-ray, only 2 USB Ports, and i hear still has the sharp edge
Whats going on at Apple?

jc1350

Oct 20, 2008, 08:13 AM

I've decided to add my thoughts to the debate:

If dropping firewire from the Macbook is a "step to the future" by getting rid of "an outdated technology,", then why didn't Apple have the "courage" to do that with the MBPs? I mean...if it's outdated technology, wouldn't it be just as important to remove that "dead weight" from all redesigned systems?

Apple's excuse reeks of bovine excrement.

MrGando

Oct 20, 2008, 08:49 AM

Only in USA. In other places Mac refurbs are overpriced (and NOT because of included VAT).

Well said. I think I will wait to see what happens, if firewire is not back, I will check some nice laptops from other brands and go the hackintosh way. I couldn't care less about it. And now that I think about it, I think that would be a very decent way to solve my problems.

RHD

Oct 20, 2008, 04:26 PM

Well said. I think I will wait to see what happens, if firewire is not back, I will check some nice laptops from other brands and go the hackintosh way. I couldn't care less about it. And now that I think about it, I think that would be a very decent way to solve my problems.

I'm thinking Hackintosh. I've never tried anything like this but it's starting to look like the best option.

I'm a lifelong Apple fan but I blew my savings on a top spec 17" MacBook Pro six months ago which now turns out to have a faulty graphics card that stutters and does weird things and is doomed to fail only to be replaced with another identical splutter and die graphics card. Thanks nVidea and Apple.

I was hoping to try and bully Apple into replacing it with a new top spec MacBook pro with a life expectancy longer than a chocolate hammer when the new MBP's came out but hi res only, hi shine screens, no firewire and still at vast expense?

What planet are they on?

Chaos123x

Oct 20, 2008, 04:38 PM

I wish apple dropped USB instead, I never use it.

Most consumers don't know what USB is either.

themightyspitz

Oct 20, 2008, 04:47 PM

I wish apple dropped USB instead, I never use it.

Most consumers don't know what USB is either.

Dunno about that one, mate. Almost everyone I know, even the janitor, has a freakin' flash stick.

Chaos123x

Oct 20, 2008, 04:51 PM

Dunno about that one, mate. Almost everyone I know, even the janitor, has a freakin' flash stick.

yeah but they don't know what USB is.

it's just a plug.

butterfly0fdoom

Oct 20, 2008, 06:08 PM

yeah but they don't know what USB is.

it's just a plug.

Yes, but whereas SOME people have FW-based equipment, EVERYONE has USB-based equipment.

FireWire is a plug. USB is THE plug.

NT1440

Oct 20, 2008, 06:10 PM

yeah but they don't know what USB is.

it's just a plug.

Actually Im sure that Usb awareness (as in they at least know the name) is far and above firwire.

butterfly0fdoom

Oct 20, 2008, 06:13 PM

I can imagine - Apogee's equipment is popular amoung the Pros, but since they are aiming decent equipment at the consumer market, they'd be pissed off to hell that Apple has eliminated a required port on their consumer MacBook.

Ah well. Maybe Apple will learn a lesson from this if the new MacBook no longer continues to be their "best selling Mac" and sales for the refurb MacBook's are miles ahead of the new gen.

The consumer market doesn't seem to care. Just today, I told a customer that the new MB doesn't have FW, and he shrugged it off and said "whatever, i don't even know what that is."

Chaos123x

Oct 20, 2008, 06:29 PM

Why would a consumer by a $1299 laptop just to browse the internet and fiddle MS office?

Are apple customers rich or something?

Avon B7

Oct 20, 2008, 07:08 PM

The consumer market doesn't seem to care. Just today, I told a customer that the new MB doesn't have FW, and he shrugged it off and said "whatever, i don't even know what that is."

You spoke to one person and then determined the consumer market doesn't care?

I'm sure Steve Jobs used the same strategy when he decided to remove FW400.

You cannot escape this issue in any language on most mac related sites.It's been that way for nearly a week. The overwhelming reaction to this move has been very negative. People care.

If you had sat down with your customer and explained what he or she was about to lose then maybe he/she would have a different opinion.

butterfly0fdoom

Oct 20, 2008, 08:07 PM

You spoke to one person and then determined the consumer market doesn't care?

I'm sure Steve Jobs used the same strategy when he decided to remove FW400.

You cannot escape this issue in any language on most mac related sites.It's been that way for nearly a week. The overwhelming reaction to this move has been very negative. People care.

If you had sat down with your customer and explained what he or she was about to lose then maybe he/she would have a different opinion.

No, I said it before in this and other threads. I work in my school's bookstore's computer department. And it's been consistently like that since I started working there. Most people don't know what it is.

Now, that customer today was more well-informed, he at least asked (didn't include it in my earlier post because I didn't think it was all that important) "is it that camcorder thing?"

The overwhelming reaction is from here on internet boards where the minority that knows what FireWire is and what it's for and also cares about its removal are complaining. You don't here the "I don't care"s as much because the people that don't care generally don't know what FW is (and/or what it's for) and/or don't post on internet boards and therefore aren't vocal.

Yeah people care, but most people (Apple's primary target market for the regular MacBook) don't.

gkarris

Oct 20, 2008, 08:28 PM

so I could care less.

You mean you COULDN'T care less.

Saying you could care less, means you actually care about it.

A legit American saying. "I could care less" means we care very little, and "could care less..."

Actually, I care about FW and looked at the new MacBooks today. I love them, but really also want the FW port. The backlit keys are sweet also. I'll wait until there's a $1299 model with FW and backlit keys.

darngooddesign

Oct 20, 2008, 08:35 PM

A legit American saying. "I could care less" means we care very little, and "could care less..."

Exactly...

"I couldn't care less" means that its the least important thing to you; "I could care less" means that while it matters its less important than correcting other people's grammar.

bigspoody

Oct 21, 2008, 10:50 PM

Not having FW is a big loss fro the time being. As everyone ahs mentioned the DV editing abilty has just been lost, but for me the major downside is the loss of Target Disk Mode.

This function has to be by far the best way to connect one mac to another.

I have just spent all weekend using this function on my sister's macbook reinstalling her OS from my MBP becuase her super drive has stopped working.

If no target disk mode is available on the new MB we would have been stuffed, target disk mode has saved mine and others bacon on many occassions.

This alone has stopped me recommending friends, family to upgrade to the new MB. :mad:

blewvelvet

Apr 22, 2009, 10:58 PM

Yep..same here..if I can't use my Three Digital cameras I own now that use tape and to access my "archive" of footage I have been building..not to mention when I back up GIGS of video between my TERA DRIVES...and NOT USE FIREWIRE?? . WHAT the hell are they thinking?? I still have a FIREWIRE 5 GB, 10 GB 60 GB iPods I still use for backup and music playing.

Apple thinks I'm gonna use USB??? HA HA..the biggest joke since removing the TIMELINE from iMovie and renaming their services MOBILE ME!!!

What is up with Apple? They never cowtowed to the lower bottom feeders before? They always built with the highest standards which is why I've always promoted them to my friends and family..you think I'm gonna tell my good friends to buy CRAP PC's??? I've always said FIREWIRE FIREWIRE FIREWIRE....I've never seen such a lack of quality drop in products since removing the timeline, mobile me AND NOW.....

FIREWIRE?????

WTF

Oh yeah..another reason..TARGET DISK MODE for fixing your own problems at home!

bjewett

Apr 23, 2009, 12:56 PM

Amen, FW or bust on the macbooks. And since I don't want a pro - need to buy other (audio) hardware, thank you - it is macbook or bust, so I'm not buying any apple hardware until firewire - currently on the "white" macbook but no others? - is offered again.

smoking monkey

Apr 23, 2009, 07:33 PM

I have a minidv tape camcorder and do not want to upgrade to a new camera at this point. It works perfectly well. I'm wondering if I can daisy chain?

With Final Cut Pro you can plug the firewire 400 camera into the external and then have the external plugged into your computer via firewire.

Thats how it is now.

THe question is...

Can that connection from the external to the computer be USB 2 instead? and can you buy USB 2 externals that come with firewire 400 port(s)?

I could always capture to my desktop computer and then transfer on an external for editing. That isn't a problem but it's a PITA.

I don't edit much anymore but I do need to do it sometimes. I want to have the ability if possible and I simply refuse to spend the coin on the pricey macbook pros.

sushi

Apr 23, 2009, 07:37 PM

Hopefully with the next update, the MB will have FW.

The space is there if they eliminate the Ethernet port. These days, you can get a relatively cheap USB to Ethernet adapter.

smoking monkey

Apr 23, 2009, 09:04 PM

Hopefully with the next update, the MB will have FW.

The space is there if they eliminate the Ethernet port. These days, you can get a relatively cheap USB to Ethernet adapter.

Sushi,

Yeah, geez I hope you are right but I just can't see that happening.

Have there been any rumours regarding this? Anything at all that I can pin my hopes on?!

Actually I'm thinking of going 2nd hand with a 2007 Nov macbook white. it's only 68,000yen and in really top shape. saw it in my local sofmap. That way I can hold myself over for a couple of years until I need to update. Only problem is the Japanese Keyboard. I know you can order the US keyboards when you buy from apple but what about just buying a keyboard and putting it on yourself?

raremage

Apr 23, 2009, 09:22 PM

Hopefully with the next update, the MB will have FW.

The space is there if they eliminate the Ethernet port. These days, you can get a relatively cheap USB to Ethernet adapter.

Personally I hope not. Lack of firewire is an inconvenience to me. If I decided I needed it I'd pop back to a Pro.

Losing ethernet and having to carry around one more thing to lose would suck more for my purposes.

MrZebra

Apr 24, 2009, 06:05 AM

I wish they'd implement this:

FireWire S800T (IEEE 1394c-2006)
FireWire is enhanced to share gigabit Category 5e cable

IEEE 1394c-2006 was published on June 8 2007.[21]

It provided a major technical improvement, namely new port specification that provides 800 Mbit/s over the same RJ45 connectors with Category 5e cable, which is specified in IEEE 802.3 clause 40 (gigabit Ethernet over copper twisted pair) along with a corresponding automatic negotiation that allows the same port to connect to either IEEE Std 1394 or IEEE 802.3 (Ethernet) devices.

Though the potential for a combined Ethernet and FireWire RJ45 port is intriguing, as of Nomember 2008, there are no products or chipsets which include this capability.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewire)

sushi

Apr 24, 2009, 10:10 AM

Yeah, geez I hope you are right but I just can't see that happening.

Have there been any rumours regarding this? Anything at all that I can pin my hopes on?!
I see the possibility of it happening, but I would not hold my breath.

If Apple, and that's a big if, decides that they want to add FW to the MB, were will it go? Can they make room for another port and the chip(s) on the inside? Hard to say. But swapping out Ethernet for FW is definitely an option.

Actually I'm thinking of going 2nd hand with a 2007 Nov macbook white. it's only 68,000yen and in really top shape. saw it in my local sofmap. That way I can hold myself over for a couple of years until I need to update. Only problem is the Japanese Keyboard. I know you can order the US keyboards when you buy from apple but what about just buying a keyboard and putting it on yourself?
That sounds like a good solution. Sofmap usually checks things out pretty good so it should last a while.

I used a Japanese keyboard for a few years on my PB15. I miss it on my MBP15 which has an English keyboard. I really miss the @ key on the Japanese keyboard.

Personally I hope not. Lack of firewire is an inconvenience to me. If I decided I needed it I'd pop back to a Pro.

Losing ethernet and having to carry around one more thing to lose would suck more for my purposes.
Many folks who use Ethernet at specific locations, say work and home, just get two connectors and leave them connected to the Ethernet cable and just plug in the USB end. That way they don't have to carry the adapters.

And when one the go, you use WiFi access for the most part, so you wouldn't need the adapter. Now I know you are thinking what about in hotel rooms. Well many provide Ethernet via DHCP. So I just carry my Airport Express with me. Plug the Ethernet into the AE and now I have a mini WiFi network in my hotel room. Can use with my laptops, touch, iPhone, etc. Works like a champ and is very convenient.

I would venture to say those of us who have been using Mac products for years and know the full extent of what you can do with FW would much prefer a FW port over an Ethernet port.

bobriot

Apr 24, 2009, 02:51 PM

too bad. I was going to buy a macbook, but no firewire, get the ***** out here.

You can still buy a macbook just make sure it's the Polycarbonate one with the crappy Firewire 400 port. While you're there may as well order an external floppy drive as well because you never know....

rwilliams

Apr 24, 2009, 03:11 PM

Yeah, it seems pretty obvious that Apple is trying to nudge the people who really love/need FireWire towards the MacBook Pro. Shady, but clever.

Tosser

Apr 25, 2009, 10:26 AM

Yeah, it seems pretty obvious that Apple is trying to nudge the people who really love/need FireWire towards the MacBook Pro. Shady, but clever.

It's not that clever, considering they're using the inferiour agere chipset in the MacBook "Pro". So people who really need it aren't "nudged" to buy the bigger, more unweildy one. No, they're forced off of the platform, unless they make a hackintosh.

Let's Sekuhara!

Apr 29, 2009, 12:16 PM

Yeah, it seems pretty obvious that Apple is trying to nudge the people who really love/need FireWire towards the MacBook Pro. Shady, but clever.

Not clever at all, really.
It's still pissing people off, months after the launch.

I wonder if it was worth it for them to get those extra MacBook Pro sales at the expense of consumer loyalty and trust?

smoking monkey

Apr 30, 2009, 10:02 PM

You can still buy a macbook just make sure it's the Polycarbonate one with the crappy Firewire 400 port. While you're there may as well order an external floppy drive as well because you never know....

What's up your arse?
There are plenty of reasons why they should have a firewire port on the new macbooks. Apple has pushed the whole "make your own movies" angle for a while now and basically cutting out the casual movie maker with a perfectly good firewire based camera is not a great ploy.

Economic times are tough. buying a computer is a big investment for some. having to buy another camera is a deal breaker.

But the writing is on the wall for firewire. It was just too early. The comparison to the floppy is a poor one as there was an alternative to the floppy. there is no cheap alternative to losing the firewire port.

Bryan Bowler

Apr 30, 2009, 10:34 PM

I can't believe you guys are still discussing this...

Bryan

TurboFan

May 1, 2009, 01:15 AM

Personally I hope not. Lack of firewire is an inconvenience to me. If I decided I needed it I'd pop back to a Pro.

Losing ethernet and having to carry around one more thing to lose would suck more for my purposes.

:confused:so why would you need ethernet port for portability? most places and houses have WiFi only:confused:
or are you just trying to look for something to put the mac down for?
Looking at the board in a macbook i think there's room for both... I've seen far more cramped boards out there so...
and 1 more thing, a usb piece that weighs less than 1 ounce and worst case costs 20 bucks (ive found a price for like 5 bucks shipped on a usb ethernet dongle) is soo cumbersome that there are means to spend thousands more only to gain considerable carrying size and about a pound more of weight. Don't you think that logic is kind of flawed?
Guys don't blow things out of proportion. Oh noes no FW, yes inconvenient, but serious Professionals already are going to get the Pro, which is no compromise. There are plenty of card readers, and usb dongles (for direct camera link) out there. There are solutions within reason.
I can see the inconvenience and I would be angry if I thought of it as a price diversion. It does kind of feel like Mac is trying to pull the wool over our eyes and take away a previous standard feature to kind of round us up into buying a more expensive computer.
All Im saying is take a step back, and relax. Its solvable reasonably. Its a good computer w/ or w/out FW. I've heard many people say that the firewire was useless on past computer as well.