No FireWire in MacBooks

[Kilamite]

How disappointing.

Looks like I'll have to spend the extra bucks on getting the Pro. Really gutted they don't have it. Even on the expensive model!

[Eidorian]

FireWire

Good Night Sweet Prince

[TheNorthWaves]

heh now I really have no regrets about buying the old macbook three weeks ago. I didn't care about the graphics though, they are sufficient for me.

[iShater]

FireWire

Good Night Sweet Prince

de ja vu? :p


I use FW for ALL my HDs and my video, I do not understand why they dropped it.

[Kilamite]

This is really stupid.

The entry level white MacBook, now at $999 and will still be sold, includes FireWire 400! Where as the new, expensive ones don't.

This is a confusing message to customers.

[NT1440]

This is really stupid.

The entry level white MacBook, now at $999 and will still be sold, includes FireWire 400! Where as the new, expensive ones don't.

This is a confusing message to customers.

Those white macbooks wont be around long. Once their sold out their gone.

[wildcardd]

This is really stupid.

The entry level white MacBook, now at $999 and will still be sold, includes FireWire 400! Where as the new, expensive ones don't.

This is a confusing message to customers.

I think that will be phased out. By next spring perhaps *poof* gone.

[logicsuggests]

wow, i was planning on buying a new macbook to make use of an apogee duet or ensemble, now that they removed firewire, there is no reason for me to even bother buying a mac as I can't use those devices.

I'm sure apogee will be pissed about this too .

[cRuNcHiE]

Removing firewire kinda makes having a 2.4ghz macbook pointless. Removing the connectivity so you cant do more power hungry tasks like recording or mixing. i dont get it

[cantthinkofone]

Who made that decision? :mad:

I HATE USB. Slow as a dog.

Common Apple.

[iShater]

Do most miniDV cameras now support USB?

[ntrigue]

Macbook has Ethernet. Firewire 800 has an Ethernet converter. Cease b*tching.

[TheAngusBurger]

There go my plans of buying the new MBs for home recording...

[marvel2]

I have to say, I have never used firewire in my MB.

[G5power]

The loss of firewire is a bad move. I understand some of the feature differences between the MB and the MBP but not that one.

My wife is in the market for a new notebook in a few months. I had really thought the new MB would be the answer. I have an external firewire drive and so this is a pain.

[Kilamite]

Macbook has Ethernet. Firewire 800 has an Ethernet converter. Cease b*tching.

Where do you get these? How reliable are they?

I've got a FireWire 400 Recording Mixer that I use. Will this converter slow down the response time/loss of quality?

[wildcardd]

Do most miniDV cameras now support USB?

Yes, I belive USB is the majority out there now.

[emac82]

Where do you get these? How reliable are they?

I've got a FireWire 400 Recording Mixer that I use. Will this converter slow down the response time/loss of quality?

I would think that it would..As you would need a Firewire 400 to 800 then to Ethernet, that's 2 adapters..

It is stupid that they got rid of Firewire 400. My external hard drives support both Firewire and USB, thank god, but I try to avoid using usb whenever possible, for transferring data.

[G5power]

Macbook has Ethernet. Firewire 800 has an Ethernet converter. Cease b*tching.

Cool another adapter to buy and have to keep track of.

[Jpoon]

Meh, it's just like the non-inclusion of Blu-Ray.

They figure the majority doesn't use it on MacBook, or at all for that matter.
The minority always gets screwed by the majority.

[zioxide]

Do most miniDV cameras now support USB?

No.

You have to use Firewire for capturing DV video. So basically, iMovie is useless on these new Macbooks unless you have one of those crappy hard drive cameras.

[andrewdale]

I mean, we do realize that technically USB 2.0 is faster than FW400, right?

[Shurran]

Its obvious to me that the lack of firewire is to stop pro users from being able to downgrade to the MacBook after making it a really tempting offer.

No miniDV cam that I have heard of uses USB for the video (although many have USB for photos only). However, there are alot of HDD cams out now that just act as USB hard disks.

I think I will still get the new MB, as I only really need a USB for my audio interface for mixing and location recording anyway.

[integragsr]

too bad. I was going to buy a macbook, but no firewire, get the ***** out here.

[Jpoon]

I mean, we do realize that technically USB 2.0 is faster than FW400, right?

In real world performance, it isn't.

[Big Boss Man]

Big mistake. Without firewire it is not suitable for a portable DAW. I am not going to buy it and hope my audio interfaces and external HDs work properly through an ethernet converter.

[emac82]

Meh, it's just like the non-inclusion of Blu-Ray.

They figure the majority doesn't use it on MacBook, or at all for that matter.
The minority always gets screwed by the majority.

Yeah I would have thought that Blu-Ray would have at least been an upgrade option.

I saw a nice HP notebook on Sunday for sale at Future Shop for like $1099 CAD and it had Blu-Ray.

[iShater]

I mean, we do realize that technically USB 2.0 is faster than FW400, right?

480 theoretical speed, depends on CPU load, vs. FW actually 400

[djellison]

I mean, we do realize that technically USB 2.0 is faster than FW400, right?

Technically, yes.

In practice, it's dramatically inferior.

[synth3tik]

wow, i was planning on buying a new macbook to make use of an apogee duet or ensemble, now that they removed firewire, there is no reason for me to even bother buying a mac as I can't use those devices.

I'm sure apogee will be pissed about this too .

I know a couple of people that were holding out after never getting their 12" MBPs that use various fireware audio devices and their screwed, and who knows how well the firewire to Ethernet adapter will work. and with things from the likes of DigiDesign, and M-Audio that already get all goffy sometimes.

[andrewdale]

480 theoretical speed, depends on CPU load, vs. FW actually 400

Technically, yes.

In practice, it's dramatically inferior.

Very true.

But you have to look at consumer standards.

Most people don't even know what Firewire is. USB though? That's about as household as dust.

[N10248]

I just hope this decision doesn't get passed on to the next iMac revision, i rely on firewire too much and plan to get the next iMac release in the new year.

Also no firewire is the biggest disadvantage of the Air too even more so than no optical drive.

[tdhurst]

Macbook has Ethernet. Firewire 800 has an Ethernet converter. Cease b*tching.

Is this true? I've heard rumors. Where can we get one?

[Queso]

No.

You have to use Firewire for capturing DV video. So basically, iMovie is useless on these new Macbooks unless you have one of those crappy hard drive cameras.
Flash RAM is where camcorders are going. FireWire is needed for tape transfers (the old tech), everything else works fine with USB. Apple are skating where the puck is going to be again.

[iShater]

Is this true? I've heard rumors. Where can we get one?

I've been looking for converters, and I found a USB2.0 to FW for $120!!! :eek:

[coachvu]

So none of the previous cinema displays, all of which require firewire, will be compatible with the new macbook? Please tell me I'm wrong.

[emac82]

Very true.

But you have to look at consumer standards.

Most people don't even know what Firewire is. USB though? That's about as household as dust.

Loyal Apple users know what Firewire is though, it has been a part of Macs for so long, and because it was so much better than USB people started relying on it, for their audio/video equipment, external hard drives, etc..

[firebox]

(Correct Thread this time!)

Such a shame but this is a deal breaker for me and I'm guessing many others.

I use my Macbook for work as an Apple Technician/Engineer and myself and a friend use 2 of them on stage when we play, Firewire is crucial to both of us..

I support a school that uses 30+ Macbooks for a range of things including iMovie...

Now a family that wanted a nice little rugged laptop for their "digital life", a music hobbyist that has already invested in a decent Audio Interface, anyone who has already purchased a FW400/800 ext. HDD and needs a new laptop - will have to pay £££'s extra for one port and a load of "features" they don't want or need!

You've really screwed us here Apple... Nice one..

[Benedict]

Big mistake. Without firewire it is not suitable for a portable DAW. I am not going to buy it and hope my audio interfaces and external HDs work properly through an ethernet converter.

Exactly this is a deal killer for me especially as I use my Ethernet port for a Euphonix mixer! (ok i could get a hub but fookin hell)

[Kilamite]

I'm so toren between the MacBook and the MacBook Pro now.

All I wanted to be able to do was connect my FireWire hard drive and my FireWire Recording Mixer!

I was all set on buying a MacBook and the 24" Cinema Display.

[NT1440]

Loyal Apple users know what Firewire is though, it has been a part of Macs for so long, and because it was so much better than USB people started relying on it, for their audio/video equipment, external hard drives, etc..

Well apple aint exactly going for loyal apple fans are they? They are chasing after consumers now, what better way then a sexy laptop. I can guarentee you that 4/5 average consumers dont have a clue what firewire is.

[Sdashiki]

Flash RAM is where camcorders are going. FireWire is needed for tape transfers (the old tech), everything else works fine with USB. Apple are skating where the puck is going to be again.

No, actually, everyone still uses DV tapes (MiniDV and DVCAM being the big ones) because it is far better than using flash/HDD/DVD.

If you shoot video at all, this would become apparent quickly.

Using flash/hdd/DVD and you only have the available space on the camcorder itself/the media before you have to erase everything to shoot new stuff. Not very conducive to actual video production.

So, with that said, FireWire 400 being dropped is a:

HUGE DEAL!

[sangosimo]

my mini dv cam can do usb tape transfers...it just doesn't do it at full res. How is imovie useless when most people are editing videos they record with their isight camera?

edit: if you shoot alot a video via a tape why is a macbook in your production chain?

[Queso]

No, actually, everyone still uses DV tapes (MiniDV and DVCAM being the big ones) because it is far better than using flash/HDD/DVD.

If you shoot video at all, this would become apparent quickly.

Using flash/hdd/DVD and you only have the available space on the camcorder itself/the media before you have to erase everything to shoot new stuff. Not very conducive to actual video production.

So, with that said, FireWire 400 being dropped is a:

HUGE DEAL!
Currently yes, but did you notice the future tense in my post?

Also I was under the impression that FW800 ports can connect to iLink interfaces, since 1394b is backwardly compatible and can run at the slower 400 rate. Surely anyone serious about video production would buy the Pro and change their cable?

[NT1440]

Currently yes, but did you notice the future tense in my post?

of course not, no one looks into the future.

Ill give you a hint tho people FW400 is dead. If anything apple is pushing others to drop the old tech and move on to the CURRENT (yes FW400 is actually outdated!) tech at least.

[emac82]

Well apple aint exactly going for loyal apple fans are they? They are chasing after consumers now, what better way then a sexy laptop. I can guarentee you that 4/5 average consumers dont have a clue what firewire is.

Most people don't use firewire, I agree. But this is bigger than getting rid of the dial up modem, as the USB Apple Modem works great...but there are still a lot of users who don't want a MBP, and won't be able to use their Firewire devices anymore, and no good way to convert them.

[Schtumple]

Do most miniDV cameras now support USB?
It's pretty hit and miss with mac support if i last recall, i could be wrong, this was 2 years ago now, things might have changed by now.

Pretty pointless if you ask me, wasn't firewire once a requirement for Tiger? seems so silly to invest all that money into it, only to drop it...

[Queso]

Pretty pointless if you ask me, wasn't firewire once a requirement for Tiger? seems so silly to invest all that money into it, only to drop it...
It wasn't the port itself that was the requirement, more that FireWire inclusion started on Macs with the required spec for Tiger. So it was easier just to check for the FireWire port and use that as the cut off point for support.

[Chris Blount]

No firewire is a deal killer...period. Sometimes I use my white Macbook to capture HD video from my Sony DV cam. Guess I won't be "upgrading".

[apulk]

No Firewire seals the deal for me. I do my home movies with my mini-dv camera which is firewire AND i have a firewire external drive. I will buy a laptop in the next few days but it won't be one of the new ones. I'll either buy an old Blackbook (for the larger drive and difference factor) or buy the old low-end Macbook pro. I don't see the $1299 or $1599 new Macbooks making any financial sense.

[humblesound]

Just throwing my two cents in:

I'm a college student.
Have been looking to switch from my old HP laptop to a MacBook for quite a while now.

Hearing the first bubbling rumors of the expected MacBook refresh this year I got myself a credit card and patiently waited a few months for a nice new mac to use for my mobile audio recording and live performance with my Echo audiofire interface.

No firewire?
Totally absurd.

There's no way I would buy this laptop now.
And there's no way I could reasonably afford a MacBook Pro.

Also- it seems like they've dramatically reduced the Educational Discount on all laptops to only $50. Didn't it used to be something like 200??

[cube]

Macbook has Ethernet. Firewire 800 has an Ethernet converter. Cease b*tching.

*********. What exists is a SPECIFICATION for FireWire using an ethernet connector. There's no chip that supports it.

[bking1000]

I mean, we do realize that technically USB 2.0 is faster than FW400, right?

Not in the real world. Plus, the USB bus is often shared with a bunch of other peripherals, whereas the FW is often isolated. I can tell you that transferring files over FW is a heck of lot faster than over my USB drives.

[halcyo]

Yea, I think Apple really ****ed this upgrade all up. So to recap, they made a fancy new aluminum body, added a faster graphics chip, and then kept everything else the exact same or ******** - and they RAISED THE ****ING PRICE?!

No Firewire is a HUGE MISTEP. There are too many people (ie - all the semi pro users who swear by apple and spread the word for the company) who use Firewire peripherals for it not to be included!

I hate to say it, but I bet Apple is gonna be FEELING this mistake soon. This is the first time Apple has actually made me kinda angry:mad:

[NT1440]

No firewire is a deal killer...period. Sometimes I use my white Macbook to capture HD video from my Sony DV cam. Guess I won't be "upgrading".

What is wrong with your macbook now?

If nothing, why are you complaining?

[notjustjay]

Flash RAM is where camcorders are going. FireWire is needed for tape transfers (the old tech), everything else works fine with USB. Apple are skating where the puck is going to be again.

The problem is the puck is going to take a long time to get there.

One miniDV tape costs $3 and can store an hour of DV video. When you transfer that to your computer via Firewire, it takes up 13 gigs of disk space. 3.6 megs/second of video.

You can't buy 16 gig flash cards yet for remotely close to $3. The solution might be to record with higher compression settings, like many existing flash based cameras do, but you sacrifice the picture quality or editability of DV (e.g. difficult to do precise editing on MPEG2 compressed video). Or use the USB port on your camera and transfer video at a lower quality (in many cases at one QUARTER of the full resolution of DV video). That's a step backwards, not forwards!

Let's say it again: DV cameras require Firewire connections. You cannot transfer DV video over USB.

As to the person who asks why you're using a MacBook if you're editing lots of tape-based video: why not? I started editing DV video with a 400 Mhz Celeron PC, and it worked just fine back in 2001. Is it not reasonable to expect a new computer in 2008 to do the same? And isn't Apple's philosophy, isn't the whole point of iLife, is that everything is easy to do, you just turn it on and go, plug and play? No adaptors, upgrades, nothing missing, everything's supposed to be included.

Can you imagine if the iMacs of 10 years ago didn't include Ethernet ports for internet access? "Oh, that's a PRO feature... if you're using the internet a lot, you really should be buying a Power Mac"...

[iShater]

Anybody found a USB2.0 to FW (or vice versa) adapter for a reasonable price yet?

[Kenal0]

Still trying to figure out how the migration assistant will work. I loved that feature. Made upgrading a no brainer.

Kenal0

[Chris Blount]

What is wrong with your macbook now?

If nothing, why are you complaining?Nothing is wrong with my macbook ESPECIALLY now. My only complaint about the now older Macbooks was the display which is why I was sorting waiting to see what Apple was going to do.

No biggy. My current trusy Macbook will continue to plug away. :)

[iShater]

Still trying to figure out how the migration assistant will work. I loved that feature. Made upgrading a no brainer.

Kenal0

*gasp* I forgot about that! :eek:

[Kenal0]

*gasp* I forgot about that! :eek:

Probably the same way as the Macbook Air. I liked the firewire way better.
Kenal0

[Kilamite]

*snipped*

Can you imagine if the iMacs of 10 years ago didn't include Ethernet ports for internet access? "Oh, that's a PRO feature... if you're using the internet a lot, you really should be buying a Power Mac"...

Brilliant post. What disappoints me is Apple would have discussed that, and why the hell they went against it really irritates me.

Maybe they should start to realise that they can no longer define the MacBook Pro as a Pro laptop - they should just combine the two and offer 13" and 15" models, varying specs. But heck, FireWire should have been on every single model.

[iShater]

Probably the same way as the Macbook Air. I liked the firewire way better.
Kenal0

link/info?

[lozion]

*gasp* I forgot about that! :eek:

YEAH AND WHAT ABOUT TARGET DISK MODE???

using your laptop as a mobile HD...

[Shurran]

I didnt even think about the lack of target disk mode.

A lot of the time, when I write/record a session (audio) that I know I will edit on the move or take to another studio, I will use my MB in target disk mode as an external disk. This will totally screw me on this one.

I will have to either transfer over network (which I find slow and buggy) or transfer to an external USB then back to the portable.

I miss target disk mode already!

[sine-nomine]

Every new product they come out with gets farther and farther from anything I'd want. I really, really want to stick with OS X, but I just cannot justify spending say $1300 on a Macbook when it doesn't have the features I need when I could go spend $700 on an HP or Compaq or Dell and not have features I need at half the price. I'm not made of money, and I would prefer the smaller size of the MacBook to the Pro, but hey, if they don't want my money, I will take it elsewhere I suppose.


Any why did they have to make them so ugly? I was so disappointed when they did this to the iMacs, but wow, the MBs, and MBPs? Looks alone won't stop me from buying a computer, but they would definitely make me embarrassed to be seen the the thing. At least with the iMacs, you can keep the ugly thing at home. They've already given us crappy screens in the 20" (the size I'd want) iMac, but if they drop FireWire in it before I can afford one, too...well, I guess I'll see how long I can go without owning a computer period. :(

[Diatribe]

Meh, it's just like the non-inclusion of Blu-Ray.

They figure the majority doesn't use it on MacBook, or at all for that matter.
The minority always gets screwed by the majority.

That's called democracy...

But then again weren't we always the ones protecting Apple when it came to offering choice? ;)

Our own mistake. I for one won't buy a laptop with a glossy screen.

[slu]

To the people that say no big deal, use an adapter (either to usb or ethernet): LINK TO ONE!

You know why they don't link to them? Because they don't exist.

I have no problem with Apple eliminating a feature that may not be used by most users. I do have a problem with the lack of bridge or add on solution that we could pay for.

Like a poster above said, this would be like Apple dropping modems from the laptops and not providing the USB modem and no 3rd Party USB modems exist. I think that would have been a problem.

[Kenal0]

link/info?


http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2288?viewlocale=en_US

Kenal0

[Shurran]

(Correct Thread this time!)
I support a school that uses 30+ Macbooks for a range of things including iMovie...


... and I guess you also use netinstall to image those machines. Say goodbye to creating the netboot image over target disk mode. In fact - how will we create a netboot image?

I guess we will have to create the master image and booted image on a different partition on the same machine, and write the image to another partition on that machine.

Well done Apple, you've gone all Vista!

[Kenal0]

Every new product they come out with gets farther and farther from anything I'd want. I really, really want to stick with OS X, but I just cannot justify spending say $1300 on a Macbook when it doesn't have the features I need when I could go spend $700 on an HP or Compaq or Dell and not have features I need at half the price. I'm not made of money, and I would prefer the smaller size of the MacBook to the Pro, but hey, if they don't want my money, I will take it elsewhere I suppose.


Any why did they have to make them so ugly? I was so disappointed when they did this to the iMacs, but wow, the MBs, and MBPs? Looks alone won't stop me from buying a computer, but they would definitely make me embarrassed to be seen the the thing. At least with the iMacs, you can keep the ugly thing at home. They've already given us crappy screens in the 20" (the size I'd want) iMac, but if they drop FireWire in it before I can afford one, too...well, I guess I'll see how long I can go without owning a computer period. :(

Have you used Vista? I think not owning a computer is a better solution.

Kenal0

[bigandy]

To the people that say no big deal, use an adapter (either to usb or ethernet): LINK TO ONE!

You know why they don't link to them? Because they don't exist.

http://trendnet.com/products/proddetail.asp?prod=125_TC-NTUF&cat=50


Merry Christmas. :p

[cube]

http://trendnet.com/products/proddetail.asp?prod=125_TC-NTUF&cat=50


Merry Christmas. :p

Why don't you actually research before trying to be so witty?

That's an adapter for a network cable tester.

[Shurran]

http://trendnet.com/products/proddetail.asp?prod=125_TC-NTUF&cat=50


Merry Christmas. :p

I just want to be the first to say it -

EPIC FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Although not quite as bad as the new MacBook w/o FW, so well done!

[polaris20]

Doesn't bother me, since I've got an HD hard disk-based Sony that goes over USB2 anyway. Would have been nice to have an extra USB port though.

[iShater]

Doesn't bother me, since I've got an HD hard disk-based Sony that goes over USB2 anyway. Would have been nice to have an extra USB port though.

I bet you are doing a full 60 min non-compressed DV movies from your home camera.

[gregk205]

I won't be buying a MacBook now. And I had planned on it. I have a flash based camcorder but sometimes when I am traveling in other countries I have to take footage from other camcorders. I wanted to buy a macbook to download the footage and then transfer it to my MBP when I get home to edit. Oh well. I guess I will just keep my Blackbook for now.

[bigandy]

Why don't you actually research before trying to be so witty?

That's an adapter for a network cable tester.

I just want to be the first to say it -

EPIC FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Although not quite as bad as the new MacBook w/o FW, so well done!

I never said it worked for what you wanted. :p

[superleccy]

The problem is the puck is going to take a long time to get there.

One miniDV tape costs $3 and can store an hour of DV video. When you transfer that to your computer via Firewire, it takes up 13 gigs of disk space. 3.6 megs/second of video.

You can't buy 16 gig flash cards yet for remotely close to $3. The solution might be to record with higher compression settings, like many existing flash based cameras do, but you sacrifice the picture quality or editability of DV (e.g. difficult to do precise editing on MPEG2 compressed video). Or use the USB port on your camera and transfer video at a lower quality (in many cases at one QUARTER of the full resolution of DV video). That's a step backwards, not forwards!

Let's say it again: DV cameras require Firewire connections. You cannot transfer DV video over USB.

As to the person who asks why you're using a MacBook if you're editing lots of tape-based video: why not? I started editing DV video with a 400 Mhz Celeron PC, and it worked just fine back in 2001. Is it not reasonable to expect a new computer in 2008 to do the same? And isn't Apple's philosophy, isn't the whole point of iLife, is that everything is easy to do, you just turn it on and go, plug and play? No adaptors, upgrades, nothing missing, everything's supposed to be included.

Can you imagine if the iMacs of 10 years ago didn't include Ethernet ports for internet access? "Oh, that's a PRO feature... if you're using the internet a lot, you really should be buying a Power Mac"...

Excellent summary of the issue.

SL

[maverick808]

http://trendnet.com/products/proddetail.asp?prod=125_TC-NTUF&cat=50


Merry Christmas. :p

Even if this was a working Ethernet-FireWire adapter, OS X has no drivers for any such adapters. So, even if such adapters do exist today, they aren't any use for Macs.

[firebox]

... and I guess you also use netinstall to image those machines. Say goodbye to creating the netboot image over target disk mode. In fact - how will we create a netboot image?

I guess we will have to create the master image and booted image on a different partition on the same machine, and write the image to another partition on that machine.

Well done Apple, you've gone all Vista!

Exactly...

I can't even begin to list all the ways in which not having FW on the Macbooks will affect the way I work. There's always going to be a "work around" for most of these things but why should I start having to find a way around perfectly good practices when they already had a solution !?

I'll just stick to my trusty Rev. A Blackbook for now but it's a real shame as I think the new design and technology is great otherwise.

As I said to a friend before, it's getting harder to be honest about Apple hardware every time they have one of these "special events"... Let's go back to the good old days when Apple gave more than they took away and cared less about taking over the iWorld..

Don't get me wrong, I'd never go back to Windows and the likes of Dell but ever since the iPhone lockdown saga Apple have gone downhill for me.

[madmaxmedia]

Still trying to figure out how the migration assistant will work. I loved that feature. Made upgrading a no brainer.

Kenal0

I actually did it over USB before. I tried it on a lark since I only had a USB drive connector, and it worked.

When it the Migration Assistant asks you to plug in a Firewire drive, that's when I plugged in a USB drive.

[madmaxmedia]

my mini dv cam can do usb tape transfers...it just doesn't do it at full res. How is imovie useless when most people are editing videos they record with their isight camera?

edit: if you shoot alot a video via a tape why is a macbook in your production chain?

We're not talking about anyone who uses the term 'production chain'.

We're talking about people who own say a Canon HV30 to shoot vacation adn family clips, and have no way of importing video into a new MacBook.

[madmaxmedia]

No Firewire seals the deal for me. I do my home movies with my mini-dv camera which is firewire AND i have a firewire external drive. I will buy a laptop in the next few days but it won't be one of the new ones. I'll either buy an old Blackbook (for the larger drive and difference factor) or buy the old low-end Macbook pro. I don't see the $1299 or $1599 new Macbooks making any financial sense.

There are great deals to be had for refurbished MBP's. Those would suit you much better than a new MacBook.

[humblesound]

We're talking about people who own say a Canon HV30 to shoot vacation adn family clips, and have no way of importing video into a new MacBook.

Bingo bingo bingo!

[HV20, here.]

[MrGando]

No new macbook for me. Period . Can't accept this kind of crap. ( User since 1985 ).

I hate apple policy now, I was an apple diehard some years ago, but this is it. Dropping the T-Shirt, and removing my Car sticker.

This is crap.

[iShater]

So to summarize:

Most of our FW drives might have a USB connection so we will survive, we can even do the migration assistant using USB or WiFi.

If we use FW camcorders (or Canopus ADVC-50 or any other AV device) and if we use any type of audio that utilizes the firewire, we are SOL with the new MacBooks.

I found a FW-2-USB cable, not Mac compatible and costs $129 or so. :rolleyes:

[thejadedmonkey]

It is 100% crap. If I get a new Apple Macbook, I won't be able to use my Apple iPod (firewire only). I get that it's a few years old, but it's just not cool!

[TMA]

How disappointing.

Extremely disappointing is how much!

[integragsr]

I just hope Apple will add the new firewires s3200 http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=401822 on the next macbooks, they better.

[polaris20]

I bet you are doing a full 60 min non-compressed DV movies from your home camera.

It's the standard 1920x1080 MPEGs from the camera, copied over via USB. It shows up as an external hard disk, I copy it over, edit, burn a DVD, and play it on my 52" plasma. Looks great. Generally I do the full 2 hours of a DVD, all in one shot.

The issue was whether or not we'll miss it or not, and I won't because I haven't used FW in ages. I hated DV tape-based cameras, because there's more crap to break. The hard disk based HD Sony has been an absolute blast to use, so much easier to deal with and back up.

[butterfly0fdoom]

I think the main reason Apple dropped FireWire is because consumer camcorders are shifting towards the likes of the Flip. Here in college, I've seen people using their cameras to record video or using Flips (and other equivalents). DV is slowly dying among one of Apple's main target demographics. Hell, I told my roommate (who also has a MacBook), "Dude, the new MacBooks don't have FireWire." His response? "What's FireWire?". A lot of people had the same response. Hell, when I worked at my school's bookstore's computer department and people were asking about the Air, we would tell them, "There's no FireWire." And most people either looked confused or also asked, "What's FireWire?" Same thing happens with external hard drives. "Why does that one cost more? It looks the same as that other one." "Well, the more expensive one has FireWire and E-SATA." "..... What're those?" A lot of you may moan and groan, but I think I can safely say that the masses won't even notice.

[ibrainch]

I have a usb/firewire WD external hd - couldn't i connect this to my new macbook via usb and then if i need to use a camcorder connect it to the open firewire slot on my external hd? let me know if this would work, thanks.

[butterfly0fdoom]

I have a usb/firewire WD external hd - couldn't i connect this to my new macbook via usb and then if i need to use a camcorder connect it to the open firewire slot on my external hd? let me know if this would work, thanks.
No.

[Wild-Bill]

If we use FW camcorders (or Canopus ADVC-50 or any other AV device) and if we use any type of audio that utilizes the firewire, we are SOL with the new MacBooks.
:

Don't forget, if you have a pro audio interface that doesn't suck (like many USB audio interfaces) such as the MOTU Ultralite, you are also screwed.

I went through about three different USB audio interfaces until I gave up and tried the Ultralite. It's a win. But if you get a new Macbook, it will be an expensive paperweight.

Once AGAIN, my trusty 12" Powerbook finds another reason to keep living!

[butterfly0fdoom]

Don't forget, if you have a pro audio interface that doesn't suck (like many USB audio interfaces) such as the MOTU Ultralite, you are also screwed.

I went through about three different USB audio interfaces until I gave up and tried the Ultralite. It's a win. But if you get a new Macbook, it will be an expensive paperweight.

Once AGAIN, my trusty 12" Powerbook finds another reason to keep living!

Just half a year ago I was agonizing over a USB versus FireWire for my audio interface. And I went FW.

.........but at the same time, I was planning on getting an MBP down the road, too.

[humblesound]

Just half a year ago I was agonizing over a USB versus FireWire for my audio interface. And I went FW.

.........but at the same time, I was planning on getting an MBP down the road, too.

I chose to get a firewire based interface [echo audiofire8] thinking I would be switching to a macbook months down the road when this refresh came out and knew that apple would support firewire much better than on the PC side because they played such a hand in making it standard.

Totally absurd of them to just remove it for the sake of sucking more money out of their customers.

[Lanenamonstruo]

How disappointing.

Looks like I'll have to spend the extra bucks on getting the Pro. Really gutted they don't have it. Even on the expensive model!

Wait... Till they throw the early 2009... Maybe maybe maybe they'll fix the glitches on these onces.

[robanga]

I understand the argument about tape based cameras, but in reality I also wonder how much life is left in FW. ( as opposed to USB 3.0 etc.)

One can not really argue too far into the issue before we admit that the future is flash based cameras, and in the interim spinning hard disk cameras are becoming more widespread.

My low end HD camera ( an Aiptek ) is flash based and my hight end camera (a Canon HD model) has a hard disk.

I only use FW for connecting a hard drive to my iMac, my MBP's Fireware is virgin.

[midiotlv]

As a musician who takes recording/producing as a serious hobby, this is a horrible move!

My expensive audio interface is FW....and I'm not running a major studio. So basically, I have to jump up to the pro laptop (which costs pro $$) to do my basic multi-track work?

Sooooo disappointed. Finally have a mid-grade solution to run Logic on, but I can't hook-up my audio interface.

Bad Bad Bad

Who the hell made this decision at Apple? And --- way to piss off the faithful Apple audio hardware manufacturers (who just had their potential market share slashed).

At what point are we going to have to throw our hands up in disgust and go back to wintel (I was a recent convert).

[kubricks]

What a giant *****-up to drop firewire on the Macbooks.

Anyone looking for a 13" DAW is screwed and now delegated to the plastic Macbook.

Every decent external sound card on the market is firewire.

Musicians are going to be pissed.

The upside however, if you can call it an upside is this:

No musician would go for the 2.0ghz entry level aluminum Macbook. They'd move up to the 2.4ghz. Apple really should have included firewire on the top Macbook. However, the new top Macbook is what, 1599? for $400 more on the Macbook Pro you get your $2 firewire port and some other goodies.

A forced upgrade for musicians basically, and not welcome not only due to the cost, but for not being able to have a 13" Mac to gig with, to produce music on as a portable studio, or to record on.

I suspect many people like myself with be looking for last gen Macbook Pros since they should likely drop in cost to something around or less than the current top Macbook.

[Richeeeerd]

As someone into amateur video production I was really interested in the new entry level macbook with an upgraded RAM but without a firewire port for most amateur video producers and as others have mentioned musicians its impossible to connect out periperals. I can guarantee people that most family camcorders/ semi-pro cams use firewire to transfer footage, and using USB drastically reduces the quality to that of video shot with a still camera. Basically we are now forced to go for a macbook pro. As a uni student a 13 inch macbook would be perfect to take to class and do some light video editing but the 15 inch pro is a bit on the large side.

[toke lahti]

By removing fw & not putting esata to mac book, using external hdd's is much slower.
Copying 1TB with usb takes over 12 hours, whereas with esata it would be something like 4 hours...

[niekverw]

amen, unbelievable, wonder if apple will enlighten us ever on this issue

[The Man]

When Apple eliminated the floppy, at least we knew that USB could be used for external floppy drives. With FireWire, I don't see a solid alternative in the making. And even when a manufacturer does make an adapter to USB that will work on the Mac, it will be bound by compatibility issues. Also, would it be able to handle the video in full resolution DV stream and in realtime? Will we be able to put video back on tape after the edit?

If Apple actually made a converter, there would not been such a huge outcry, even if they charged $100 for it. But now, we know that in the future, FireWire will be gone from Apple's consumer offerings. We can expect to see FireWire removed from the Mac mini.

What I hate about Apple's decision is not the way they try to think their way forward. I love Apple for doing that. I hate them for making good quality electronics, even recent and new ones obsolete. Those nice Canon and Sony camera's suddenly need to be replaced knowing that FireWire will be gone soon. Or we need to invest in more expensive Apple stuff. FireWire based HDs need to be replaced. In this time, electronics don't have a long life, even when they function perfectly.

What's wrong with your current Mac, some may ask? Well, some are getting old, and need to be replaced soon, maybe within a year. Well, you can always get a white MacBook if you do need FireWire, some say. But for how long? Also, say you don't have a FireWire camera and you buy a new Macbook, you can't loan a FireWire based camcorder, which are the most common in schools and universities.

Also, some people seem to suggest that if you're using a FireWire based camera with Final Cut (note that there is an Express version), you must be a professional or are loaded with cash. This is not the case. Not all can afford the Macbook Pro. Most people are just home enthusiasts. And they can only afford one computer replacement. And if they need a laptop, they need a laptop. For now, the white MacBook will do, but it's not really fair to get yesteryear's specs.

There's no real logical explanation for Apple to remove FireWire other than product differentiation. When the MacBook was plastic, there was still much difference between that and the Pro line. But going aluminum, the distinction is suddenly gone. So Apple removed FireWire to ensure that sales of the Pro line, and a more profitable line, won't go down.

While the decision is based on cannibalizing sales of the Pro line, I predict that FireWire will be removed from other Apple products. And while Apple will gain many more new-to-Mac customers, they will lose the respect of so many loyal Mac fans that have sticked by the company even through rough times. So do we want to be rewarded for being loyal? No, we just want Apple to be a solid home.

I also feel like we Mac people aren't united anymore. And when people do complain and say they might switch to the PC because they feel let down by Apple, the only words they'll often get on many boards is: well, goodbye, we won't miss you.

I'm not saying goodbye, yet, but I'm a little annoyed, because the future is uncertain, and the investment in my computer peripherals doesn't seem like an investment anymore. It's what happened with the iPod too when Apple removed FireWire based charging. Now, even Apple's own iPod Hi-Fi system won't charge the new iPods.

[iShater]

Well said The Man.

[b.read™]

Long time reader, first time poster here

I say "long time" because that's when it seems I've been waiting for the updated laptops to drop....a LONG TIME. That's when it all started...

I do music production and recording with my imac, and have recently bought some turntables and am using the DJ software Torq, which is awesome.

My plan was to buy the high end macbook on the 14th and upgrade the ram after I got it...but the since the updates are more cosmetic, and didn't include firewire, I passed.

I was bummed because I also thought of getting a blackbook, but wanted LED backlight display and illuminated keys....ahhh, what to do?

So long story short:

I just bought a MacBook Pro 15-inch 2.5GHz Intel Core 2 Duo (previous generation) Brand new


2GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM
250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
LED backlight display
illuminated keyboard

Under the clearance section of the apple store. With education discount came out to $1599 plus tax.

1 firewire 400 port, and 1 firewire 800 port same price as the current high end macbook

Suck on that one apple!

After all, I'm glad I waited for this update...this laptop would've set me back $2500 two days ago. Free shipping too


So I suppose it pays to be patient...Apple really screwed the pooch on this update, but atleast I got a WAY better machine than I could've afforded last week.

I haven't seen the updated laptops in person yet, and don't really care to. The new looks don't really sit well with me. I just jumped on this and won't look back! Hope this helps anyone trying to make up their mind...

[bogman12]

As a musician who takes recording/producing as a serious hobby, this is a horrible move!

My expensive audio interface is FW....and I'm not running a major studio. So basically, I have to jump up to the pro laptop (which costs pro $$) to do my basic multi-track work?

Sooooo disappointed. Finally have a mid-grade solution to run Logic on, but I can't hook-up my audio interface.

Bad Bad Bad

Who the hell made this decision at Apple? And --- way to piss off the faithful Apple audio hardware manufacturers (who just had their potential market share slashed).

At what point are we going to have to throw our hands up in disgust and go back to wintel (I was a recent convert).

Why not just buy a refurbed MacBook Pro 2.5GZ for $1500 right now..

[polaris20]

Let me start by saying it does suck there's no FW on the MB now. I do disagree with it, simply because there's no real benefit of leaving it off. It doesn't save a ton of space, and it hinders a lot of people, clearly.

There are ways of still doing good quality video and audio though. The HD series of hard disk Sony camcorders (one of which I own) are quite nice, IMO, and they will work fine with the MB's.

Likewise, there are a lot of good audio interfaces for musicians that work well over USB2, such as those from M-Audio, Edirol, and MOTU, like the 828MkII.

All really is not lost. At least not completely.

Again, it's still stupid that they made that decision, and I bet on the rev b they'll put it back, just as they did with the FW800 on the previous gen MBP.

It's a big bummer if you already own FW equipment too, such as those of you with the nice Canon prosumer stuff.

I just wanted to point that out, because some of you are using the word "impossible" when it's not exactly impossible, just difficult and/or expensive.

Personally, should I choose to go with the MB and not MBP, I'll be able to keep my HD hard disk Sony camera, as it merely shows up as an external disk with the full res files intact.

But my Presonus Firebox would be useless. Now, I was considering upgrading to an 8-input XLR-equipped box anyway, which for me would mean either the MOTU 828 or M-Audio FastTrack Ultra 8R. But that's besides the point. People should want to upgrade, not be forced to upgrade their equipment.

[bogman12]

There are ways of still doing good quality video and audio though. The HD series of hard disk Sony camcorders (one of which I own) are quite nice, IMO, and they will work fine with the MB's.

Your Hard Disk based Sony camcorder is NOT "quite nice".. nice for an amateur perhaps.. not for anyone else at production levels slightly above that. Trust me..

Most prosumer camcorders today still records to tape and dumps to computer via firewire.

[polaris20]

Your Hard Disk based Sony camcorder is NOT "quite nice".. nice for an amateur perhaps.. not for anyone else at production levels slightly above that. Trust me..

Most prosumer camcorders today still records to tape and dumps to computer via firewire.

Fully aware a lot use FW, like I said in my post. And I happen to be happy with my Sony FOR A CONSUMER CAMERA.

I'm not claiming it's pro level, never did. For home videos, it works fine for me. You saying it's not nice is fine, that's your opinion. Good for you.

Jesus, some of you people love to be rude and snotty on internet forums. Love to see how you relate to people in real life.

EDIT
Apparently I'm not the only one to like the Sony HD hard disk cams:

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camcorders/sony-handycam-hdr-sr12/4505-6500_7-32775806.html
http://www.retrevo.com/s/Sony-HDR-SR12-Camcorders-review-manual/id/12050ci364/t/1-2/
http://reviews.digitaltrends.com/review/5172/sony-hdr-sr12-review
http://www.pcworld.com/shopping/detail/prtprdid,62716384-sortby,retailer/pricing.html

[cruelmemory]

I do allot of work on computers as a hobby and for my career. It makes absolutely no sense to drop FW and removes so much.

When I moved from my Intel Core Duo MB to My 2.4 MBP, I just set the MB into target disk mode and connected them via FW and let them go. I do it all the time for data transfers when a client was upgrading to a new model mac from like, an iBook. I suppose that if they had a Time Machine backup (most likely, no), then it would be easy.

Before I got my MBP, I did allot of video editing on my MacBook in iMovie. I passed the Mac along to a friend that uses it for the exact same thing. Looking around, if I wanted to buy a new MB for video editing, I would have to buy a new camera and move away from the miniDV format that I have been using for years. So in addition to buying a new computer, I would have to buy a new camera, too. As it is, I would requite a FW hub that allows me to use my FW 4-pin to 6-pin cable with an 8-pin plug if I bought one of the new MBP or an express card to FW400 hub.

No matter how you slice it, the exclusion of FW will have a negative effect on users one way or another. I would like to know the secret reasoning for this removal. My guess is that it's to save power on the bus to keep the battery life estimates up closer to the 5 hour mark.

[polaris20]

No matter how you slice it, the exclusion of FW will have a negative effect on users one way or another. I would like to know the secret reasoning for this removal. My guess is that it's to save power on the bus to keep the battery life estimates up closer to the 5 hour mark.

I agree. It is a bummer, and there's no real benefit to leaving it off, unless they intend upon artificially forcing people to the MBP. It is a bad move on Apple's part.

[iShater]

My camera is a consumer JVC camera, uses FW/miniDV, and I have quite a few tapes, and I daisy chain a few hard drives and use an external when editing in iMovie. So for a consumer like myself that uses iLife's iMovie, the consumer laptop that I can afford new doesn't work for me :(

[HLdan]

Under the clearance section of the apple store. With education discount came out to $1599 plus tax.

1 firewire 400 port, and 1 firewire 800 port same price as the current high end macbook

Suck on that one apple!


So I suppose it pays to be patient...Apple really screwed the pooch on this update, but atleast I got a WAY better machine than I could've afforded last week.


I think you should read what you write before posting. You say, "Suck on that one Apple". Regardless if Apple didn't sell you their latest and greatest, they still got money out of you AND you helped them by clearing out their old model. I say the jokes on you.

[HLdan]

Your Hard Disk based Sony camcorder is NOT "quite nice".. nice for an amateur perhaps.. not for anyone else at production levels slightly above that. Trust me..



Anyone that needs to do above consumer level video production won't be using consumer level movie production software such as iMovie. Final Cut would be the software to use and the Macbook has never been a capable computer to run it.

I understand SOME people's frustration for the firewire feature not being included however I beg to differ that even a fraction of the people used it for more than Target Disk mode. Sheesh, if Apple included the Firewire it's obvious many of you would have bought the Macbook. So how would Apple sell the Macbook Pro? People are already saying it's not worth paying for because the Macbook offers more for the buck.

[Le Big Mac]

I just hope Apple will add the new firewires s3200 http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=401822 on the next macbooks, they better.

Why? They would have put FW800 on them now if they intended to keep support for it.

[iShater]

Anyone that needs to do above consumer level video production won't be using consumer level movie production software such as iMovie. Final Cut would be the software to use and the Macbook has never been a capable computer to run it.

I understand SOME people's frustration for the firewire feature not being included however I beg to differ that even a fraction of the people used it for more than Target Disk mode. Sheesh, if Apple included the Firewire it's obvious many of you would have bought the Macbook. So how would Apple sell the Macbook Pro? People are already saying it's not worth paying for because the Macbook offers more for the buck.

I big to differ. I bet the target disk mode is the least used. Audio/Video import hello iMovie?), and external HDs.

Most decent video cameras needed FireWire (or iLink as another name) to be able to bring the uncompressed DV to the system. A lot of the new HD/card based ones perform compression or are prohibitively expensive if they have enough HD space not to need it.

[Sdashiki]

Can people STOP saying flash/hdd based camcorders are the future!

They arent until a big change occurs, and itll have to literally be HUGE.

Tapes are archivable. Storable. Portable. And altogether useful in the amateur, porno, pro video world.

Dont fool yourself into thinking that a HDD based camcorder is better just because its HD or newer than another MiniDV/DVCAM machine.

When you run out of space on the HDD, what then?
Dump it to the computer?
What if you dont have the computer with you?
How can you send footage to someone...dump to computer, burn to DVD? What if it doesnt fit?
How can you archive uncompressed (ignoring 5:1 DV) video?

Seriously...tape is here to stay for the long run.

I dont get the whole HDD based systems whatsoever, they are so limited in their use, its staggering to see how they are priced when compared to a similar speced MiniDV

[Kilamite]

Anyone that needs to do above consumer level video production won't be using consumer level movie production software such as iMovie. Final Cut would be the software to use and the Macbook has never been a capable computer to run it.

Same processor and RAM as the MacBook Pro, bar the dedicated GPU. Since Final Cut needs processing power, not GPU power, then the MacBook is more than capable to run it.

Final Cut Pro isn't CPU intensive unless you are rendering. Just editing, adding transitions etc uses very little CPU. The MacBook is a very capable laptop.

Apple has just chosen to force people to buy the Pro.

They said themselves, the MacBook is Apple's best selling Mac of all time. Why the bloody hell do they go and remove something from it then?!

It was best selling for a reason. Even in the 'Pro' section of their website under profiles, there is a few artists who use MacBooks with their FireWire gear, because the MacBook is so capable and cheap.

Not any more they won't. Apple has really shot themselves in the foot.

[Derwood]

I just hope Apple will add the new firewires s3200 http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=401822 on the next macbooks, they better.

What are the chances of the hardware already being in place in the new MBP's? As I understand it S3200 is port compatible with FW800. Pie in the sky, I'm sure. Clutching at straws really.

Gutted about lack of FireWire on the MB's. Dumped right on top of audio semi-pro's from a great height. The day's of money flowing freely about the record industry have completely disappeared and the availability of almost pro-level equipment at almost consumer prices has got to be significant for a whole host of non-major labels and artists: those that can't afford huge amounts of studio time or equipment. Plenty of records get made this way.

I had told a friend to wait for 14th Oct to make a MacBook purchase not really expecting them to go through with dropping Firewire. Embarassed that they have.

My next Mac is going to be an iMac. I will make my purchase the day before the media event that sees Apple drop Firewire from them also!

Derwood

[ec51]

amen, unbelievable, wonder if apple will enlighten us ever on this issue

Um, I think its simple...they want "pros" to opt for the MBP. :cool:

[Milk*is*tasty]

This is just... sad.

As many others have stated, musicians are taking it royally up the behind.

I was actually thinking about getting a MB just for recording at home. That's completely out of the question now. Apple, you just lost a sale.

[polaris20]

Can people STOP saying flash/hdd based camcorders are the future!

They arent until a big change occurs, and itll have to literally be HUGE.

Tapes are archivable. Storable. Portable. And altogether useful in the amateur, porno, pro video world.

Dont fool yourself into thinking that a HDD based camcorder is better just because its HD or newer than another MiniDV/DVCAM machine.

When you run out of space on the HDD, what then?
Dump it to the computer?
What if you dont have the computer with you?
How can you send footage to someone...dump to computer, burn to DVD? What if it doesnt fit?
How can you archive uncompressed (ignoring 5:1 DV) video?

Seriously...tape is here to stay for the long run.

I dont get the whole HDD based systems whatsoever, they are so limited in their use, its staggering to see how they are priced when compared to a similar speced MiniDV

Well, while I don't think it's quite there yet completely to replace tape (though I'm quite happy with it on a consumer level) I do think DV tape will most definitely be gone in 10 years or so.

I personally never said it was "better" than Mini DV, but rather better FOR ME. Having had several Mini DV camcorders and now this, I am much happier with the work flow and file management.

I never run out of disk space, because I have a server that I add additional drives to when the need arises. It's RAID 5, so it's redundant. That information then goes to an external drive monthly. Check out FreeNAS, incredible OS for setting up a file storage server on the cheap.

All video data gets burned in its raw form to gold DVD which is then stored off site at my parent's house 50 miles away.

For giving to other people, I edit the data, and burn a dual layer DVD. They've never been happier with the final result. I also export to Quicktime and host some videos in a username/password SSL-protected area of my website. Of course both of those things can be done with any digital camera, but this is my usage.

And I fail to see how $500 for a camera is expensive. It's not. A couple co-workers have camcorders; one a standard def hard disk-based Sony, the other a mini DV Canon of similar feature set. The end result on DVD is pretty much indistinguishable in my eyes and those of everyone else here.

Hard disk-based cameras aren't the be all/end all. I'm certainly not trying to claim that. But they shouldn't be completely ignored, either.

[viggen9]

One productive way to channel these complaints to Apple is via their MacBook feedback area:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

[Le Big Mac]

Hard disk-based cameras aren't the be all/end all. I'm certainly not trying to claim that. But they shouldn't be completely ignored, either.

hard disk cams shouldn't be ignored, but neither should miniDV cams. Obviously hard disk cams are gaining ground because people don't need the space or flexibility of MiniDV.

FWIW it doesn't make sense for apple to "force" people to buy a MBP. They could do that by dropping the MB altogether. Instead, it's probably an effort to segment the line further so that they can have a "budget" laptop that doesn't cut into salesof the MBP to the extent the MB previously did.

[polaris20]

hard disk cams shouldn't be ignored, but neither should miniDV cams. Obviously hard disk cams are gaining ground because people don't need the space or flexibility of MiniDV.

FWIW it doesn't make sense for apple to "force" people to buy a MBP. They could do that by dropping the MB altogether. Instead, it's probably an effort to segment the line further so that they can have a "budget" laptop that doesn't cut into salesof the MBP to the extent the MB previously did.

I agree completely. While I don't like Mini DV that much any more personally, that market is a huge one that should not be ignored, which it quite obviously is being ignored by Apple.

[Milk*is*tasty]

About the quality of DV vs. HDD. What you store video on has nothing to do with quality. They aren't formats per se, only storage devices. Most video on HDD is still running on the same codecs and containers as the DV-based stuff. Nobody really cares about the consumer level anyways, because people are stupid and ignorant, and couldn't care less if the camera they use store chroma in 4:2:2, 4:4:4 or 4:2:0. They don't understand it, and they don't see it, and to get anything out of it, you'd need professional lighting and colour correction anyways.

The only interesting aspect of HDD based storage is at the professional level (look at RED for instance, I hope Sony and all the other old farts go out of business, because frankly, I'm tired of their lame ass formats). New formats and new codecs. Now that's interesting. What I store my stuff on physically? Not interesting at all.

[iShater]

One productive way to channel these complaints to Apple is via their MacBook feedback area:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

Thank you, I have!

Milk*is*Tasty don't most HDD camera store the video in MPEG-2? so it is already compressed vs. the RAW video in order to fit it on the drive right?

[realfx]

heh now I really have no regrets about buying the old macbook three weeks ago. I didn't care about the graphics though, they are sufficient for me.


Word

[Milk*is*tasty]

Thank you, I have!

Milk*is*Tasty don't most HDD camera store the video in MPEG-2? so it is already compressed vs. the RAW video in order to fit it on the drive right?

It depends on who makes the camera, and what kind of formats they use. Basically, everything is compressed, nothing is even close to RAW at a consumer level. Cameras based on Sony's formats have a few different kind of codecs. They've actually gone over to MPEG4 now (on AVCHD), but it's still 4:2:0 chroma sampling (same as PAL DV/DVCAM), and it's still at a pretty low bitrate (actually lower than DVCAM on the video side), not to mention that it's interframe (meaning that the compression is integrated over several frames -- basically GOP compression, meaning compressing over a set of frames, making it prone to disasters based on data errors (where the error spreads over several frames, even though the error might only be in on frame originally)).

Basically, the more expensive cameras use better compression. You should always look at stuff like formats, codecs, chroma sampling, bitrate, compression type (intraframe/interframe, GOP/long-GOP etc.) together with what kind of sensor it uses, because that's the important stuff. What the camera uses for storage is of absolutely no interest in terms of what kind of video quality you get out of it.

People seem to think that manufacturers automatically up the bitrate or change the compression when they get a new and better storage device. And as you correctly state, that's just not how it works. They're still on heavily compressed MPEG2 or MPEG4.

[polaris20]

Thank you, I have!

Milk*is*Tasty don't most HDD camera store the video in MPEG-2? so it is already compressed vs. the RAW video in order to fit it on the drive right?

Technically HD DV compresses too, though I'm guessing at a lower ratio than hard disk-based systems.

MiniDV tapes can also be used to record a high-definition format called HDV in cameras designed for this codec, which differs significantly from DV on a technical level as it uses MPEG-2 compression. MPEG-2 is more efficient than the compression used in DV, in large part due to inter-frame/temporal compression.[1] This allows for higher resolution at bitrates similar to DV. On the other hand, the use of inter-frame compression can cause motion artifacts and complications in editing.[2] Nonetheless, HDV is being widely adopted for both consumer and professional purposes and is supported by many editing applications using either the native HDV format or intermediary editing codecs.[3]

[kage207]

I can see the uses for Firewire but I really don't use it at all. Now I don't do video or have a camera to do these things. I use USB external, I really don't care how fast it goes or not because I just set it to do it's job to back up my computer and walk away. Do something else or just work with it being a bit slow because of transfers. I also haven't used FireWire for my transfers of my movies to my computer but use Ethernet instead, it's pretty fast and I was happy that it transfered 2 movies in about 10minutes or I think. I can't really remember but it was really fast.

Is this a dangerous move? Not really on Apple's part because it's trying to sell the better laptop to people who work more with movie and such on the go. The Pros are nice but I really don't need it. I'm happy with my 'old' MacBook that I got about 2months ago. It'll last me 3-4years hopefully until I'm out of college. Then I will be buying a new one. But they are trying to show off their new Pros to show what it can do with video editing and get people to realize that. The MacBooks have higher graphics for people who watch videos and games. A second thing to note, I've also used iMovie but haven't used a camera. I've used online video to make my videos and I'm happy with iMovie and what my 'old' MacBook does. Is Firewire a huge loss? Yes in a way. But a move they made to sell a better product that they make more profit on to those who are into high end video editing.

[Milk*is*tasty]

Technically HD DV compresses too, though I'm guessing at a lower ratio than hard disk-based systems.

Not really related. One is a format, the other is a storage device.

[Chaos123x]

All the people saying that they never used firewire is surprising.

I always thought that the Mac market was all about creative people working on videos, music, design.


But most people don't????

What do they use it as a giant iphone for internet, itunes, and e-mail?

Now I can finally really see how PC trolls call Macs a toy.

[Kilamite]

Is this a dangerous move? Not really on Apple's part because it's trying to sell the better laptop to people who work more with movie and such on the go. The Pros are nice but I really don't need it. I'm happy with my 'old' MacBook that I got about 2months ago.

It is a dangerous move. The MacBook was Apple's best selling Mac because of what it offered. Professionals even used it for little bits and bobs that they wouldn't need a full blown Mac Pro to do. For example, recording demos while on the road. They can no longer do this.

If the MacBook had never included FireWire to begin with, no problem. It did, and has done throughout. Now, they've dumped it for no reason other than to promote sales of the Pro.

I wish Apple would just scrap the MacBook/Pro and introduce a new line of laptops under one name, that went from a low cheap end 13" to a high end 13" and a low 15" to a high end 15". Same ports, same design. Just CPU speed, RAM and dedicated/integraded graphics as the differential.

[Chaos123x]

It is a dangerous move. The MacBook was Apple's best selling Mac because of what it offered. Professionals even used it for little bits and bobs that they wouldn't need a full blown Mac Pro to do. For example, recording demos while on the road. They can no longer do this.

If the MacBook had never included FireWire to begin with, no problem. It did, and has done throughout. Now, they've dumped it for no reason other than to promote sales of the Pro.

I wish Apple would just scrap the MacBook/Pro and introduce a new line of laptops under one name, that went from a low cheap end 13" to a high end 13" and a low 15" to a high end 15". Same ports, same design. Just CPU speed, RAM and dedicated/integraded graphics as the differential.


Thats what they need to do. This whole idea of artificially gimping products is retarded.

[Nabooly]

This sucks, i just bought a Seagate harddrive for my imac and i was planning on using it with my future macbook also. There goes that plan.

[polaris20]

Not really related. One is a format, the other is a storage device.

No I realize that, I was just saying that perhaps the MPEG2 files on DV Tape are less compressed (due to manufacture design) than they are on the disk based systems for sake of space on the hard disk.

This is just a guess, not a fact of course. They could be the same exact compression.

Do you know? I'd be interested. Of course this probably varies manufacturer to manufacturer, model to model anyway, so it may be a difficult question to answer.

[Sdashiki]

MiniDV does not compress MPEG2, it compresses using DV (1:5)

Another reason tape is going to be better for most anyone with a glimmer of video production in their eyes.

MPEG2 compresses in a way that most systems can not edit directly, another kink in the workflow that uses it.

[Cdes]

I am not sure if this has been asked before in this thread, but in the past I have used firewire to transfer movies from my camcorder to my macbook. I want to get a new macbook, but am in a tough spot if I will no longer be able to transfer files from my camera to my comp.

I'm not sure if you need to know what camera I have to answer this question (its a cannon from a few years ago), but anyway, is there a cord to transfer video via usb? or some other method?

or am I going to have to upgrade to a pro or get a new camera?

Thanks,
Chris

[cube]

Or the right thing: switch to PC.

[bking1000]

Milk is Tasty has a good point on the fact that storage and compression formats are different, but they are highly aligned. DV Tape uses DV compression, is the least compressed of consumer level, and the best quality, but the longest workflow to ingest in many ways.

DVD recorders use MP2 and can be the lowest quality and hardest to work with.

HD HDD camcorders tend to use MPEG 4 and h264 (both related technologies) the give great compression, but are a bit harder to work with.

Although DV can sometimes be a pain to ingest (having to playback 1:1 time from a camera), it is then the easiest to edit and splice together, though it takes more storage.

DV tape machines are dying, and will most likely disappear.

However, a proper video editing approach is to have different drives for scratch disks, and 800 is the best and fastest approach to this. Of course, the Apple bean counters want those folks to consider a MacPro or a MBP, but not all of us do this for a living, and can afford video studies.

Apple, with the MB, used to offer some reasonably priced basic approach to editing video. In adding the new video chip set, it would have ramped that up even further, however, they took away FW for reasons that we don't really no, but it sure looks like they want to force you to upgrade to the MBP now.

(as an aside: what -- they couldn't at least have added another USB port in place of the FW?) I think the MB is intentionally crippled to drive sales up their food chain. That's their choice, and they have the latitude and right to do it.

Also, on lack of FW -- maybe this also drives the need for the time capsule or other networked storage. FW drives are pretty darn fast and are great for backups. In my own real life tests, my FW drives tend to run 33% faster in file transfers. However, that has let me say "eh, I don't need the time capsule. I'm fine dragging and dropping my critical files." Maybe they know that, and would like to drive more time capsule sales for backups. Just a thought.

[polaris20]

I am not sure if this has been asked before in this thread, but in the past I have used firewire to transfer movies from my camcorder to my macbook. I want to get a new macbook, but am in a tough spot if I will no longer be able to transfer files from my camera to my comp.

I'm not sure if you need to know what camera I have to answer this question (its a cannon from a few years ago), but anyway, is there a cord to transfer video via usb? or some other method?

or am I going to have to upgrade to a pro or get a new camera?

Thanks,
Chris

Realistically your options are:

1. Buy a new USB2.0 equipped video camera, such as the Sony hard disk based models. You may or may not like them. I do, but it depends how hifi you want to go.

2. Upgrade to an MBP. Kinda ridiculous, just so you can have a port.

3. Go PC, of which there are a lot of FW equipped models. I recommend Thinkpads.

[bking1000]

I am not sure if this has been asked before in this thread, but in the past I have used firewire to transfer movies from my camcorder to my macbook. I want to get a new macbook, but am in a tough spot if I will no longer be able to transfer files from my camera to my comp.

I'm not sure if you need to know what camera I have to answer this question (its a cannon from a few years ago), but anyway, is there a cord to transfer video via usb? or some other method?

or am I going to have to upgrade to a pro or get a new camera?

Thanks,
Chris

This belongs in the video forum, but if your Canon is using tape, then you can only bring that in via Firewire. However, from several folks on this thread, I'd have to say you don't actually exist, because I've been assured that no one uses FW anymore. :D

[isaacc7]

Or the right thing: switch to PC.

This is really the most distressing thing. Apple is essentially telling me to spend 2 grand to do what I want, I could just as easily spend $700 and go with a windows machine or possible run linux instead. There is good software on both platforms, OS X simply isn't worth $1300 to me. I can't believe I'm actually considering a windows PC after all these years...


Isaac

[bking1000]

:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

Go PC. That's a good one! Very funny

:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

[Algalli]

Weren't these the same type of complaints when Apple eliminated floppy disks?

[bking1000]

This is really the most distressing thing. Apple is essentially telling me to spend 2 grand to do what I want, I could just as easily spend $700 and go with a windows machine or possible run linux instead. There is good software on both platforms, OS X simply isn't worth $1300 to me. I can't believe I'm actually considering a windows PC after all these years...


Isaac

The newest releases of Ubuntu are supposed to be pretty good. I'd do that before Vista.

Mac has always "just worked" in the past. Stepping away from that value proposition is a little perplexing. Still, they could recant. They've done it before.

[isaacc7]

Weren't these the same type of complaints when Apple eliminated floppy disks?

The difference was that you could still use floppies if you wanted to via an external one, or try the new fangled usb things. There isn't a way to get around the lack of firewire for the things that need it. While it's nice to do firewire data back up, it's necessary for a lot of video and audio hobbyists. All of this over a simple port, I can't believe Apple screwed up this badly.


Isaac

[bking1000]

Weren't these the same type of complaints when Apple eliminated floppy disks?

True, but Apple invented Firewire and worked to get IEEE1394 established. They didn't invent floppy disks. Also, FW has advantages over USB that floppies don't over CD slots. That's the perplexing part.

[cube]

Weren't these the same type of complaints when Apple eliminated floppy disks?

You could always hook up an external USB floppy drive. This is worse. There is no way to add FireWire to a MacBook.

[bking1000]

The difference was that you could still use floppies if you wanted to via an external one, or try the new fangled usb things. There isn't a way to get around the lack of firewire for the things that need it. While it's nice to do firewire data back up, it's necessary for a lot of video and audio hobbyists. All of this over a simple port, I can't believe Apple screwed up this badly.


Isaac

Great point! AND often you could call the software maker and get the CDs to replace the floppies for a nominal charge. Here, people have to replace expensive peripherals.

UNLESS Apple surprises us with some sort of ethernet adapter story or other approach that could work, but I don't see it right now.

[isaacc7]

The newest releases of Ubuntu are supposed to be pretty good. I'd do that before Vista.

Agreed, but I'd do XP before either Vista or Linux. Can't believe I'm going through these options..

Isaac

[Algalli]

True, but Apple invented Firewire and worked to get IEEE1394 established. They didn't invent floppy disks. Also, FW has advantages over USB that floppies don't over CD slots. That's the perplexing part.

Good point!

[bking1000]

Agreed, but I'd do XP before either Vista or Linux. Can't believe I'm going through these options..

Isaac

Isaac -- get a last gen MacBook (the 2.2GHz ones) -- white or black. They're reasonable little machines, are a little cheaper right now, and you can user-upgrade the HDD and memory. Look at the refurbished options on apple.com -- $999

I had one, but sold it thinking I'd get one of the new ones. Boy was I foolish!

One warning: they don't game as well (which is not an issue for me, but is for many people).

[cube]

Apple agrees! (Priceless)

http://www.tuaw.com/2008/10/15/zut-alors-macbook-announcement-doesnt-translate-well/

[polaris20]

The newest releases of Ubuntu are supposed to be pretty good. I'd do that before Vista.

Mac has always "just worked" in the past. Stepping away from that value proposition is a little perplexing. Still, they could recant. They've done it before.

Good suggestion. Ubuntu has a specific Canonical supported derivative called Ubuntu Studio that basically has pre-packaged video, audio, and graphics suites. You basically tell it which you're going to be doing at install (or all three), and it installs everything relevant with just a couple clicks. Very cool. Great looking OS too.

[RHD]

I've got 4 external hard drives and a scanner that all run on 400 firewire and just bought a hub because I've only one port on my MBP.

I don't know why they ditched 400 firewire it seems mad.

Steve's throwaway line about buying a cable to convert would have more conviction if one was included in the box or even for sale separately on Apple's website. As it is I haven't found one available in the UK at all. No one is commenting on how well this works even if you can find one.

What happens if I attach my four external hard drives and a scanner to the 800 port with a conversion cable? (If I can find one)

I think we should be told.

[cube]

FW800 and FW400 are compatible both ways (speed reduces to 400).

You just need a 6-pin to 9-pin cable or adapter (sometimes misleadingly called "gender changer").

Granite Digital in USA has the top quality stuff, but it's expensive and you have to pay the shipping. I don't know where to get this quality anywhere else, so there I go, anyway.

[Kilamite]

They could easily have differentiated the two by providing FireWire 400 on the MacBook and two FireWire 800 ports on the MacBook Pro.

I can't wait until MWSF to find out whether they'll realise how stupid they were in doing this and rectify it.

[NT1440]

They could easily have differentiated the two by providing FireWire 400 on the MacBook and two FireWire 800 ports on the MacBook Pro.

I can't wait until MWSF to find out whether they'll realise how stupid they were in doing this and rectify it.

If they do add a FW port, id expect 100% that it would be a FW 800

[Eidorian]

They could easily have differentiated the two by providing FireWire 400 on the MacBook and two FireWire 800 ports on the MacBook Pro.

I can't wait until MWSF to find out whether they'll realise how stupid they were in doing this and rectify it.I still have a feeling FireWire will show up again after all this outrage.

[iShater]

If they do add a FW port, id expect 100% that it would be a FW 800

Fine by me!!!

[RHD]

FW800 and FW400 are compatible both ways (speed reduces to 400).

You just need a 6-pin to 9-pin cable or adapter (sometimes misleadingly called "gender changer").

Granite Digital in USA has the top quality stuff, but it's expensive and you have to pay the shipping. I don't know where to get this quality anywhere else, so there I go, anyway.

UK, so the Apple Store in London is selling loads of external hard drives that need firewire 400 and if I want to use them on a new Macbook I have to buy an expensive adapter (can't see anything on Granite Digital's site to say they even ship to the UK, much less what it costs but thank for the link) Then pay huge UK tax on the huge FedEx shipping fee.

Not seeing the upside here and feeling better about my dodgy Nvidea 8600 graphics card every day.

[cube]

Yes, they ship to Europe. Usual courier prices.

If you don't care about the quality, I can't believe there's no place in UK to get it. Try ebay.

[agbot]

I still have a feeling FireWire will show up again after all this outrage.

As long as that outrage actually makes it to http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html where it can make a difference. :)

[RHD]

OK, lets do it the other way.

Nobody wants to have to use Windoze, that's the problem.

Didn't someone figure out a hack to run OSX on a Windoze machine?

That way you get way more choice of spec and can just get on with your life.

[cube]

UK, so the Apple Store in London is selling loads of external hard drives that need firewire 400 and if I want to use them on a new Macbook I have to buy an expensive adapter

You can't use ANY FireWire on the new Alu MacBooks, only on MBP.

[agbot]

UK, so the Apple Store in London is selling loads of external hard drives that need firewire 400 and if I want to use them on a new Macbook I have to buy an expensive adapter

You can't use ANY FireWire on the new Alu MacBooks, only on MBP.

If by "expensive adapter" he means a MacBook Pro to use with the FW drive then share it over Ethernet back to the MacBook, then yes, he may be correct. :D

[Eidorian]

As long as that outrage actually makes it to http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html where it can make a difference. :)Feedback sent. I was a little lazy to do so until you linked to it.

[NT1440]

Feedback sent. I was a little lazy to do so until you linked to it.

lol same here

[bking1000]

As long as that outrage actually makes it to http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html where it can make a difference. :)

I put mine in.

[iShater]

I put mine in.

I did as well earlier today.

[mcb13]

One productive way to channel these complaints to Apple is via their MacBook feedback area:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

Not that it will change anything for the next revision, but I sent my note of dissatisfaction anyways.

[bking1000]

If by "expensive adapter" he means a MacBook Pro to use with the FW drive then share it over Ethernet back to the MacBook, then yes, he may be correct. :D

ROFL!

That's it! The $2000 FW adapter for the Macbook: http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/

Or, you could go with this cheaper adapter: http://www.apple.com/imac/. It starts at $1200. Maybe they'll even allow you to enslave the iMac screen to your macbook!

[Let's Sekuhara!]

Macbook has Ethernet. Firewire 800 has an Ethernet converter. Cease b*tching.

Thank you for that important piece of information!
I knew there had to be a workaround.

[b.read™]

Why not just buy a refurbed MacBook Pro 2.5GZ for $1500 right now..

Didn't read my first post, didja?

[cube]

Mac mini is a cheaper "adapter".

But not even a full computer is an adapter, because while you can NFS mount drives, you cannot use other FW devices on the Macbook through the non-lame machine.

[iShater]

Thank you for that important piece of information!
I knew there had to be a workaround.

Ask him for a link, no such thing exists that will actually allow you to do any work.

[cube]

Thank you for that important piece of information!
I knew there had to be a workaround.

For that piece of MISinformation from random "I'm so much smarter"?

[b.read™]

I think you should read what you write before posting. You say, "Suck on that one Apple". Regardless if Apple didn't sell you their latest and greatest, they still got money out of you AND you helped them by clearing out their old model. I say the jokes on you.


Why? Because I got the exact computer I've wanted, for a grand cheaper just because they came out with this BS update on Tuesday? This crappo update is the only reason I could afford this laptop, so I'm all for it. Buy your glass track pad if you wis but I'm happy with my purchase

[RHD]

You can't use ANY FireWire on the new Alu MacBooks, only on MBP.

Yikes! I'd only checked the specs on the higher end models and been underwhelmed.
That's really bad.

[Milk*is*tasty]

This is going majorly OT, sorry about that, ignore this if you're not interested in the video discussion.

Milk is Tasty has a good point on the fact that storage and compression formats are different, but they are highly aligned. DV Tape uses DV compression, is the least compressed of consumer level, and the best quality, but the longest workflow to ingest in many ways.

Well, the point was HDD uses all kinds of stuff. DV, HDV, AVCHD etc.

Everyone is better off if people understand that formats and storage devices are two completely different things.

HD HDD camcorders tend to use MPEG 4 and h264 (both related technologies) the give great compression, but are a bit harder to work with.

Yup, but at the low end, it's DV (not sure how many cameras using DV are around right now though, I've never been much interested in small cameras ;))

MiniDV does not compress MPEG2, it compresses using DV (1:5)

Another reason tape is going to be better for most anyone with a glimmer of video production in their eyes.

MPEG2 compresses in a way that most systems can not edit directly, another kink in the workflow that uses it.

Yeah, basically, it's a JPEG kind of algorythm, compressing each frame individually. In any case, as long as you can make an digital intermediate, interframe problems aren't that big (in my experience), but yeah, DV is pretty nice.

No I realize that, I was just saying that perhaps the MPEG2 files on DV Tape are less compressed (due to manufacture design) than they are on the disk based systems for sake of space on the hard disk.

This is just a guess, not a fact of course. They could be the same exact compression.

Do you know? I'd be interested. Of course this probably varies manufacturer to manufacturer, model to model anyway, so it may be a difficult question to answer.

Yeah, actually they do, DV video gets pretty huge at the normal bitrate, so, say, a 60GB drive wouldn't last very long. I've never owned a DV HDD camera though, so I'm not at all sure what kind of options you have. I have however seen that it's possible to cram something like 40 hours of footage into a 60GB drive, and that's just insanity, I can't imagine how horrible that must look, but I guess you just have to do something like that, since it's a fixed drive (and people who use it probably want to be able to shoot a few hours of footage without having to clean the drive). I'm sure AVCHD looks a lot better on HDD (more effective compression at lower bitrates), but to be honest, I wouldn't touch any of those cameras with a ten foot pole. At the top of the consumer level you're beginning to get close to second hand entry level semi-pro (in price), and that's simply another world (albeit usually a bit big for vacations, hehe). Look at the DVX100 for example. I'd rather buy one of those second hand than even looking at anything at the consumer level. That is if you're not interested in just something to very cheaply document family life. In any case, I think our grandchildren would be happier if we'd film their future parents with a DVX100, or maybe even an 8mm camera ;)

[RHD]

Yes, they ship to Europe. Usual courier prices.

If you don't care about the quality, I can't believe there's no place in UK to get it. Try ebay.

I really do care about the quality and thanks again for the link and confirming they ship to the UK. I have bookmarked them.
Still not planning on having to need them though, really hoping this is all a blip on Apple's part.

Cheers!

[toke lahti]

Looks like apple is doing too well.
When 90% of new mac buyers have never heard of fw and wants to have good OS, apple can cut it away.
10% of people would like matte screen, nevermind!
10% of people would like blu-ray, fogedabaudit!
10% of people would like esata, just look at the design!
It's so much beatiful with less connectors and more brushed aluminum!

When finally MB has enough GPU power to run full FCS, only thing they could do is take fw away.
And how to sell old MBP's away, well lets take option of matte screen away, so they will pay even more for the old model!
Next time let's bring 3 different Airs: one with usb, second with fw and third with ethernet. They'll have to buy all 3 of them!!!

[Let's Sekuhara!]

Ask him for a link, no such thing exists that will actually allow you to do any work.

Oh, lame!

OK, well does anybody know at least whether Target Disk Mode or Migration Assistant will work via an ethernet cable? Probably not, right?

If you had an old Mac you could probably TDM it to an AirPort/TimeCapsule and your new MacBook could read it at least.

Edit:
Wait, **** - nevermind! AirPort and TC are USB-only too! My bad. This really sucks.

[RHD]

Looks like apple is doing too well.
When 90% of new mac buyers have never heard of fw and wants to have good OS, apple can cut it away.
10% of people would like matte screen, nevermind!
10% of people would like blu-ray, fogedabaudit!
10% of people would like esata, just look at the design!
It's so much beatiful with less connectors and more brushed aluminum!

When finally MB has enough GPU power to run full FCS, only thing they could do is take fw away.
And how to sell old MBP's away, well lets take option of matte screen away, so they will pay even more for the old model!
Next time let's bring 3 different Airs: one with usb, second with fw and third with ethernet. They'll have to buy all 3 of them!!!

Ahh!

I'm seeing your logic!

I'm much happier about my crappy nvidea 8600 failing chip which gets to be replaced with another failing chip because my alternative is a hi res (I'm 44 now and can't see really, really tiny menus all day without eye strain) with a very shiny screen with big glare and no firewire port for my external hard drives, scanners and camera. That actually does make perfect sense.

Not is a good way, but sense.

[polaris20]

Yeah, actually they do, DV video gets pretty huge at the normal bitrate, so, say, a 60GB drive wouldn't last very long. I've never owned a DV HDD camera though, so I'm not at all sure what kind of options you have. I have however seen that it's possible to cram something like 40 hours of footage into a 60GB drive, and that's just insanity, I can't imagine how horrible that must look, but I guess you just have to do something like that, since it's a fixed drive (and people who use it probably want to be able to shoot a few hours of footage without having to clean the drive). I'm sure AVCHD looks a lot better on HDD (more effective compression at lower bitrates), but to be honest, I wouldn't touch any of those cameras with a ten foot pole. At the top of the consumer level you're beginning to get close to second hand entry level semi-pro (in price), and that's simply another world (albeit usually a bit big for vacations, hehe). Look at the DVX100 for example. I'd rather buy one of those second hand than even looking at anything at the consumer level. That is if you're not interested in just something to very cheaply document family life. In any case, I think our grandchildren would be happier if we'd film their future parents with a DVX100, or maybe even an 8mm camera ;)

Good information dude, thanks! I know my camera is capable of doing ridiculous amounts of time (don't know that it's as long as 40 hours) but I've always got it set for maximum quality, i.e. less than 3 hours of available time on an 80GB HD.

I would have loved a 3 chip prosumer cam, but went with this due to its size and lower cost.

[quarx]

You may also sign the following online petition:

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/MB1394/petition.html

Maybe it helps to make Apple put back FireWire ports to the MacBooks.

[iShater]

Oh, lame!

OK, well does anybody know at least whether Target Disk Mode or Migration Assistant will work via an ethernet cable? Probably not, right?

If you had an old Mac you could probably TDM it to an AirPort/TimeCapsule and your new MacBook could read it at least.

Edit:
Wait, **** - nevermind! AirPort and TC are USB-only too! My bad. This really sucks.

Yes, you can use Ethernet. But TDM RIP for the MacBook.

[iShater]

You may also sign the following online petition:

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/MB1394/petition.html

Maybe it helps to make Apple put back FireWire ports to the MacBooks.

Instead provide feedback to Apple directly.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

[Milk*is*tasty]

Good information dude, thanks! I know my camera is capable of doing ridiculous amounts of time (don't know that it's as long as 40 hours) but I've always got it set for maximum quality, i.e. less than 3 hours of available time on an 80GB HD.

I would have loved a 3 chip prosumer cam, but went with this due to its size and lower cost.

Yeah, size is an obvious problem :)

Small 8mm cams rival even the smallest consumer digital cameras though (in terms of size). Not that it's a very flexible format however, but goddamn how cool it looks :)

I'm sure it will all work out when HDD's get bigger, and there's more use of big memory sticks. I mean, memory sticks are getting pretty damn huge (storagewise) and cheap these days. Not to mention it's not a fixed device. I'm sure it's going to get a lot better in HD resolutions at the consumer level.

[iShater]

Milk and polaris20, thank you for the detailed information. So looks like when I am ready to a buy a new HD camera, I will have good options that will work with USB2.0 to transfer the movies over.

I guess I have to find a way to see what I can do with all the tapes that I have and the my trusty camera. :(

[bking1000]

Milk and polaris20, thank you for the detailed information. So looks like when I am ready to a buy a new HD camera, I will have good options that will work with USB2.0 to transfer the movies over.

I guess I have to find a way to see what I can do with all the tapes that I have and the my trusty camera. :(

The funny part (or not so funny) is that video folks have been debating formats for the last couple of years, and the tape folks say -- "the beauty of tape is that you always have a back-up"

One counter-point to tape was you need a camera that would still read the tapes in the future. We'll Apple has accelerated that. Now, you also need a port that can ingest the output of those cameras!

[iShater]

The funny part (or not so funny) is that video folks have been debating formats for the last couple of years, and the tape folks say -- "the beauty of tape is that you always have a back-up"

One counter-point to tape was you need a camera that would still read the tapes in the future. We'll Apple has accelerated that. Now, you also need a port that can ingest the output of those cameras!

True!

With the economy the way it is, I was really hoping that my next purchase would replace my aging system and that it would be the only thing I would have to buy. But looks like if I upgrade, I have to shell $$ for a new camera too. D'oh!

[Let's Sekuhara!]

Usually I'm not one to brag, but today I'll make an exception:

I own a black 13" MacBook with 4GB RAM. And Firewire. :D
Suck it down.

[iShater]

Usually I'm not one to brag, but today I'll make an exception:

I own a black 13" MacBook with 4GB RAM. And Firewire. :D
Suck it down.

LOL

And still faster than the entry level one!

[bking1000]

Well, I just took my FW external drive, which also has a USB interface, and tried transferring a 200MB file to it.

Via FW400 it took 7 seconds. Via USB it took 12 1/2 seconds. Also, I had to find the power adapter and plug it in to power it for the USB transfer. Firewire has it's own power and doesn't need an adapter.

So, to those who stick their noses up at FW saying you never needed it, I say -- you don't know what you've been missing. Nearly 2X the transfer speed and no adapter needed. My external is a notebook HDD, so it's very portable and never needed power.

I'm going to muck around with network storage, see what those prices are like (I should be running a RAID for back-ups anyway), but unless it's pretty cheap nowadays, then no new macbook for me.

p.s. I read that if you buy the new LED cinema display for the MB, then audio and the isight come over the USB connection to the monitor. Won't that be dandy? The MacBook's USB bus could have to run (if put in a desktop config) -- an external drive, the mouse and keyboard, audio and iSight, and maybe a camera or something else. That should slow that USB bus down nicely.

[polaris20]

The funny part (or not so funny) is that video folks have been debating formats for the last couple of years, and the tape folks say -- "the beauty of tape is that you always have a back-up"

One counter-point to tape was you need a camera that would still read the tapes in the future. We'll Apple has accelerated that. Now, you also need a port that can ingest the output of those cameras!

On one hand, tapes are your back up, in a way. But as you said, you have to have something to play it back. Also, tapes degrade over time. Ask any sysadmin who has to deal with DLT tapes for backup. Tapes suck, as a medium, IMO.

But with disk-based systems (either HD or flash) you've got to have one helluva back up system in place, should your computer or camera crap the bed. I do, but it's probably more than what most people would do in a home/consumer setting.

As far as disk/flash based stuff, there's a lot out, and a lot on the horizon. Like I said, it'll be awhile before it really competes on a pro level. But it'll happen. My prediction is 10 years, tape as a medium will be gone.

Check out Sony's stuff:

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=3555

And Canon's new line:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=173

The HF's are flash-based, the HG hard disk-based. Also good to see Canon using larger chip sizes not too; that definitely contributes to picture quality too.

Don't get me wrong; these aren't going to get you to XH A1 levels of quality. They're definitely consumer cameras. But for those looking to go with the new MB and wanting to do video, that's a possible way to go.

EDIT

Interestingly enough, in Canon's case 6 of their 9 HD level (1920x1080) cameras are either flash or hard disk based, and use USB2.0.

I wonder if this is Apple's reason for being so confident not to need FW on the MB. I disagree still, as it leaves out all the prosumer stuff as well as quite a few really affordable cameras. But it may be why they're so confident about their choice. Sony is similar. Only one of their HD cameras besides the prosumer model is tape based.

Again, this is all consumer cameras I'm talking, not stuff you'd shoot a wedding with.

[MrGando]

Sent my feedback .

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

/me is angry.

[maddog09]

SHUT UP! You don't have to buy the product. The macbook is geared towards high school and college students for the most part as well as CONSUMERS. Most consumer level video cameras contain usb cables. You do not have to buy Apple's products. Apple most likely decided that the majority of people who buy macbooks do NOT use firewire, I have never used it myself and only know one person who does. And anyways if you dont want to shell out money for a mac book pro, buy a refurb or a macbook white.

[Chase817]

Will there be a solution to upload Cannon GL2 videos?

[Chaos123x]

Will there be a solution to upload Cannon GL2 videos?

NO.


Unless you want to capture the footage with another computer.

[Duujo]

And isn't Apple's philosophy, isn't the whole point of iLife, is that everything is easy to do, you just turn it on and go, plug and play? No adaptors, upgrades, nothing missing, everything's supposed to be included.

Here f-ckin here!

I was going to look at replacing my 15" MBP with a new MB, but for all the reasons others have mentioned.. I really can't go without a FW port. It was bad enough that they took the FW400 out of the MBP!.. In fact I waited 'till they included the FW800 again in the MBP 'till I got the current laptop I have now.

This just makes me angry at Apple. They giveth us awesome new MacBooks, but then they taketh away the basics, like one FW port. I suspect it has a lot to do with form over function, but really?

As a geek who uses FW so much (HDD's, Edirol audio interface, MiniDV) I am saddened. I need more ports, not less, and love having the ability to take it all with me in my bag.

[Kilamite]

Sent my feedback.

Under the OS part, it only goes up to 10.5.4. Makes me wonder if Apple even reads these/cares.

[Nordichund]

SHUT UP! You don't have to buy the product. The macbook is geared towards high school and college students for the most part as well as CONSUMERS. Most consumer level video cameras contain usb cables. You do not have to buy Apple's products. Apple most likely decided that the majority of people who buy macbooks do NOT use firewire, I have never used it myself and only know one person who does. And anyways if you dont want to shell out money for a mac book pro, buy a refurb or a macbook white.

ROFL:D:D:D:D:D

That's right you tell em Fido.

As for me, no firewire, no sale. I'm also thinking about muscians and up and coming deejays who go to gigs using MacBooks, also the pros who use a MacBook as a back-up incase the MacPro crashes etc.

Apple really are taking out the professional and serious amateur with the release of their new MacBook minus firewire slot.

I can wait. I had the money saved to back up my Mac Pro, but now I've bought a new mobile phone (nokia) and will shortly be buying a new Nikon D90. Thanks Apple :D

[capoeirista]

SHUT UP! You don't have to buy the product. The macbook is geared towards high school and college students for the most part as well as CONSUMERS.

Firstly, relax. Secondly back this statement up with references or I don't believe you. Besides the gap between MB and MBP seems quite small now, only a discrete video card and screen size between them.

I have never used it myself and only know one person who does. And anyways if you dont want to shell out money for a mac book pro, buy a refurb or a macbook white.

Well if you only know 1 person who does use it, and you yourself don't, it makes perfect sense that nobody else could possibly need it :rolleyes:

Also, do you think the White Macbook is going to be around indefinitely? Doubt it. I would imagine they are just using up the old stock of parts before phasing it out.....

I want to replace my core duo macbook soon but I, a) cannot afford a MBP and b) don't want to lose all my FW externals.

I've registered feedback on this at the apple site. I'll wait.

[krypticos]

sorry i dont see the big deal on having no firewire. i have a whitebook and i have never even plugged a firewire device in to my whitebook. i have had my white book for a while. even when i used my ibook i still never used firewire. i used it for 2 years. i think firewire is nice but no on the consumers notebook. on a professionals notebook like the pro then yea i see a us for it. maybe a photographer has a camera that transfers over firewire. but for your average joe that buys a macbook for the first time. he will never even know what it is. because pcs only ever used the tiny firewire on them so dont think joe probably ever used it. :apple:

ok well so theres no firewire on the new macbook but right now i dont see firewire living but for a few more years.

[Kilamite]

sorry i dont see the big deal on having no firewire. i have a whitebook and i have never even plugged a firewire device in to my whitebook. i have had my white book for a while. even when i used my ibook i still never used firewire. i used it for 2 years. i think firewire is nice but no on the consumers notebook. on a professionals notebook like the pro then yea i see a us for it. maybe a photographer has a camera that transfers over firewire. but for your average joe that buys a macbook for the first time. he will never even know what it is. because pcs only ever used the tiny firewire on them so dont think joe probably ever used it. :apple:

It is that kind of ignorant attitude that Apple has taken.

The MacBook isn't just for "first time Mac buyers" or "students" or "technology illiterate people".

And just because you haven't used FireWire, you think Apple was right to remove it? Lots of people depended on FireWire, and still do.

Your attitude along with other peoples irritates me. The whole, "if you need FireWire, just buy the Pro." There is a big price difference between the low end MacBook and the MacBook Pro.

Maybe some of us want a smaller, more portable laptop too eh?

:rolleyes:

[localoid]

Sent my feedback.

Under the OS part, it only goes up to 10.5.4. Makes me wonder if Apple even reads these/cares.

Well, hopefully they do... But if not, we could each start mailing them a brick via snail-mail with a note attached. Sooner or later, someone at Apple would probably notice a stack of bricks piling up in the mailroom...

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1544775/2/istockphoto_1544775_pile_of_bricks.jpg

[krypticos]

i can say if apple finds they make the wrong move im sure they will bring it back in 6 month or so. i under stand your frustration but i think apple is mainly thinking of first time mac users, and no pro situations. i know the pro is more expensive. if u need firewire right now that is the only option that people have laptop wise. i mean if you want firewire that bad get a plastic macbook or something else because i dont think its going to change anytime soon. i mean if firewire is that big then i guess devices like this (http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?pid=10854)will be selling a lot more of. all i can say is i agree about sending them bricks. i think that is a good idea lol.

[toke lahti]

The macbook is geared towards high school and college students for the most part as well as CONSUMERS. Most consumer level video cameras contain usb cables.
Most consumer video cameras for a decade have only fw port. They are miniDV cameras. Maybe 9 out of 10 consumers that have video camera needs fw.
This seems just that apple has gone too greedy.
They already make biggest profits per net sales.
But that's not enough.
By taking fw away, consumer has to decide to buy new camera & mb or just mbp. Some of them choose the latter and apple's profits grow and everybody is happy.

[toke lahti]

i can say if apple finds they make the wrong move im sure they will bring it back in 6 month or so.
This is what they are good at.
By taking away options and giving them back afterwards everybody is happy and they don't have to add any new options like esata ever...

[Wild-Bill]

SHUT UP! You don't have to buy the product. The macbook is geared towards high school and college students for the most part as well as CONSUMERS. Most consumer level video cameras contain usb cables. You do not have to buy Apple's products. Apple most likely decided that the majority of people who buy macbooks do NOT use firewire, I have never used it myself and only know one person who does. And anyways if you dont want to shell out money for a mac book pro, buy a refurb or a macbook white.

I'm sure all of us here at MR appreciate the fact you registered here yesterday, just to post this comment. (you're one and only forum post, btw..) I'd say you are most likely being paid by Apple to come on here and post damage control-type posts regarding the firewire fiasco.

As for most consumer-level video cameras having USB, well My Canon "consumer-level" DV cam uses FIREWIRE. It's a proven FACT that firewire is a superior interface to USB.

This is a HUGE screw-up on Apple's part. But it goes beyond that. Remember when the hideous iMovie 08 was introduced? (you know, stripped of features, dumbed down, etc...so bad they had to offer iMovie HD 06 as a free download), Jobs was touting these new AVCHD cameras. Dollars to donuts he's got some agreement with these USB cam manufacturers to leave firewire out.

The bottom line is, they are sure that the Macbook line won't cannibalize MBP sales because they stripped the MB of firewire. So anyone with a quality pro audio firewire interface can't get in on the ground floor with the Macbook, as well as those of us with firewire DV cams.

And speaking of fleecing the customer, in order to get a backlit keyboard you have to buy the 1499 Macbook. Come on. First they make you pay 20 bucks for a remote they used to include for FREE, now this. Oh, and if you want to use your Macbook with a 30 inch LCD you may already own, you'll have to shell out 100 bucks for a mini displayport (fiasco #2) to dual-link DVI interface.

I submitted my feedback to Apple regarding the firewire issue, the backlit keyboard issue, and the price point. Apple is not exercising price sensitivity with regard to the current global economic climate. I mean, they have 20 BILLION in cash, and their new manufacturing process will end up saving them money in the long run. And they're not passing those savings on to the customer.

[mckyvlle]

...
The bottom line is, they are sure that the Macbook line won't cannibalize MBP sales because they stripped the MB of firewire. So anyone with a quality pro audio firewire interface can't get in on the ground floor with the Macbook, as well as those of us with firewire DV cams.
...


Just a small point to add, the new MacBook Pros are down to one FireWire port. So the FireWire situation now is like telling a tall person he is too tall, and asking whether he would prefer losing a few inches off his legs or lopping his entire head off!

[Flan]

I was gonna convert to mac from PC.. god help me i was excited about it too! now im caught at a crossroad.. my current comp is dying and ill need one soon.. so what do i do.. buy an out of date macbook with firewire?

i think ill go and check the local mac store to see if they are selling any of the old MBPs for cheap

[danny_w]

Maybe Apple thinks that by leaving out FW they can force everybody to go buy a new camera; after all, it worked with the :apple:TV didn't it? No 4:3 support, and suddenly everybody started buying new HDTV widescreen tv sets. The difference is that THERE WAS A REASON OTHER THAN APPLE FOR THE HDTV PURCHASES. There is no such reason to cause people to go buy a new video camera if they have one now that works.

[Artmuzz]

No firewire!!!:( What the hell are Apple thinking of!! and yet the new MacBooks are £200 more expensive than they ever were:eek:

I'm glad i have my old MacBook with firewire, my iMac with firewire, my MacBook Pro with firewire and my Dell Inspiron 530 Hackintosh with firewire:p


Artmuzz

[delude]

I haven't logged on for a while for various reasons but have been reading MacRumors every day since April. I have taken a lot of information etc, researched and blah blah and will be happy to make my purchase soon.

Now, to the point...I was browsing the net and found the site below, with what looks like a Firewire (iLink) to USB adapter. I asked the customer services if it could be used with a Mini DV camera and they confirmed that it would work to a USB port. Could anybody shed more light on this?

Product: http://www.8starshop.com/en/b-usb-a-male-to-ieee-1394-firewire-4-pin-male-adapter.html?currency=GBP

Question:


Dear buyer,

Thank you for your email.


Yes, you could connect a Firewire (ilink) DV camcorder to a USB port. Thanks.


If you have any other questions, please feel free to let us know . We are very glad to help you.

Welcome to our online store!

Have a nice day:)

Best regards

yours sincerely,

customer service

======= 2008-10-15 23:44:51 your Email：=======

Hey there. Would this product allow me to connect a Firewire (ilink) DV camcorder to a USB port?
http://www.8starshop.com/en/b-usb-a-male-to-ieee-1394-firewire-4-pin-male-adapter.html?currency=GBP

Thanks

========================================

[Shurran]

No firewire!!!:( What the hell are Apple thinking of!! and yet the new MacBooks are £200 more expensive than they ever were:eek:

I'm glad i have my old MacBook with firewire, my iMac with firewire, my MacBook Pro with firewire and my Dell Inspiron 530 Hackintosh with firewire:p


Artmuzz

Yea, I was really upset because I HAD to get a MacBook a month ago (knowing it would be updated soon) to complete some work. I chose a sweet BlackBook to ease the pain and am chuffed about it now!

Still hoping the next MB revision isnt as screwed as this one so I can upgrade!

[delude]

Yea, I was really upset because I HAD to get a MacBook a month ago (knowing it would be updated soon) to complete some work. I chose a sweet BlackBook to ease the pain and am chuffed about it now!

Still hoping the next MB revision isnt as screwed as this one so I can upgrade!

Shurran, have you looked at my above post? I am going to email them back to make absolutely sure that this works, and may make a purchase to see. I have no idea about Firewire and USB, although two apple chat staff told me that it was possible.

I posted the chat logs here:

www.rewardguide.co.uk/files/applechat1.html
www.rewardguide.co.uk/files/applechat2.html

[iShater]

I really doubt this will work. From other research I did, it was expensive big electric conversion cylinder on it type of thing. I look forward to hear if anybody gets a chance to try it out.

[delude]

I really doubt this will work. From other research I did, it was expensive big electric conversion cylinder on it type of thing. I look forward to hear if anybody gets a chance to try it out.

Yeah, that is what I thought. I have read so much about how it wouldn't work, and how if there was the slightest chance that it did, then Apple would have to do this, and that.....
Anyway, I replied to the answer they gave me linking them to the specs of the MacBook, asking if they can confirm for sure whether it will work.

[Tosser]

Shurran, have you looked at my above post? I am going to email them back to make absolutely sure that this works, and may make a purchase to see. I have no idea about Firewire and USB, although two apple chat staff told me that it was possible.

I posted the chat logs here:

www.rewardguide.co.uk/files/applechat1.html
www.rewardguide.co.uk/files/applechat2.html

Delude, it won't work. It's a plug adaptor, akin to the plug adaptors you plug into the wall. They won't work unless the voltages (the bus language in case of the USB/FW) are correct, if that makes sense, me mixing the example with the real stuff.

Anyway, at most you will get the USB power through the fw terminals, but you won't get any data, that's for sure. It's not just a matter of plug shape (as in my wall plug example). You can't have firewire over usb or vice versa with a simple plug adaptor (other than power, if done correctly). That's ridiculous.
I really question the competence of those people working at places like that :rolleyes:

[delude]

Delude, it won't work. It's a plug adaptor, akin to the plug adaptors you plug into the wall. They won't work unless the voltages (the bus language in case of the USB/FW) are correct, if that makes sense, me mixing the example with the real stuff.

Anyway, at most you will get the USB power through the fw terminals, but you won't get any data, that's for sure. It's not just a matter of plug shape (as in my wall plug example). You can't have firewire over usb or vice versa with a simple plug adaptor (other than power, if done correctly). That's ridiculous.
I really question the competence of those people working at places like that :rolleyes:

haha, that's exactly what I thought, thanks for confirming :D

[Moks]

I haven't logged on for a while for various reasons but have been reading MacRumors every day since April. I have taken a lot of information etc, researched and blah blah and will be happy to make my purchase soon.

Now, to the point...I was browsing the net and found the site below, with what looks like a Firewire (iLink) to USB adapter. I asked the customer services if it could be used with a Mini DV camera and they confirmed that it would work to a USB port. Could anybody shed more light on this?

Product: http://www.8starshop.com/en/b-usb-a-male-to-ieee-1394-firewire-4-pin-male-adapter.html?currency=GBP

Question:

Interesting. If this thing actually works, maybe I can get a new macbook after all????

[iShater]

Interesting. If this thing actually works, maybe I can get a new macbook after all????

No unfortunately. Read my and the last few posts. We have been through this and researched it heavily the last couple of days.

[Tosser]

Interesting. If this thing actually works, maybe I can get a new macbook after all????

It won't. So no MacBook for you ;)

[Moks]

It won't. So no MacBook for you ;)

Damn.

So, Option 1, new camera with USB.

Option 2, Macbook Pro

Option 3, Plastibook.

Hmmm.....:confused:

[Tosser]

Damn.

So, Option 1, new camera with USB.

Option 2, Macbook Pro

Option 3, Plastibook.

Hmmm.....:confused:

4: make yourself a hackintosh, and slowly migrate to another system instead of being locked in.

5: Cut your losses, and get the hell out of the locked down and limited system the Apple platform has become (before these new MBs/MBPs, they were merely "fast becoming", but with this they are close to the finish line). Switch.

6: Use your old MB/MBP until it gives up, all the while cutting loose from the closed platform.

7: Buy a refurb MBP/MB

8: Buy a used MBP/MB.

[iShater]

Damn.

So, Option 1, new camera with USB.

Option 2, Macbook Pro

Option 3, Plastibook.

Hmmm.....:confused:

I'm in the same bought.

I am thinking option #2, since editing on external drives over USB2.0 does not seem to be a good idea.

[Let's Sekuhara!]

Damn.

So, Option 1, new camera with USB.

Option 2, Macbook Pro

Option 3, Plastibook.

Hmmm.....:confused:

Go with option 3. Get a maxed out black MacBook and you'll be good to go for a while. I'd hurry if I were you since everybody's probably got that idea now.
Or, if you need it and can afford it you still have a few months to get the 17" MBP.

And as a last resort, a Hackintosh might be something worth looking into.

[Milk*is*tasty]

I fired off some feedback yesterday, hope more do as well, no FW on MB is simply madness.

[delude]

I filed a complaint with Apple's Consumer Relations Division about the lack of firewire on the Macbook. There are SO many professional users who use the FW400 port non-pro version Macbooks... Here is what I recieved...

THE RESPONSE: The response I recieved was in conversation with Apple tech support was, “I am actaully not sure what Apple was thinking, I just found out yesterday myself. I don’t understand because we use it for troubleshooting and diagnostics ourselves...” So even the people at APPLE are not happy…
***The person with Apple’s Consumer Relation’s division said if Apple gets enough viable complaints they may change the design of the products… Posting on this forum may do very little good, that’s why WE must file with Apple’s Consumer Relations Division which you can speak with my calling the main number and requesting to file a complaint with Apple’s Consumer Relation’s division…


To file a complaint about the exclusion of FIREWIRE in Macbooks you can simply click here... very simple.
http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

Or call 1800-MYAPPLE and ask for the Conumser Relations Division...

For MACBOOK PRO click here...
http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbookpro.html

I have and use a Mac Pro "tower" and still like the portability of the Macbook WITH FW400... If you think FW400 is out, then head over to some pro Audio forums. You see MOST good interfaces, including Apple's own Apogee Duet is FW400... I need not go on...

Thanks for this, perhaps if you contact Arn he would be able to post the links in a place more easily accessible, so more people can share their opinions. I'm sure there are thousands of people (more!!) that share the same views, and would like at least one firewire port to be added. If all of these people made a complaint then they would not be ignored.

Oh, and perhaps we should put the link in our sigs?

[Let's Sekuhara!]

People always hold off on buying an Apple product once there are even the slightest suspicions that a new version may be on the horizon.

This just goes to show that newer doesn't necessarily mean better.

Lesson to be learned: If you like it, buy it! It might not be around tomorrow.

When I bought my black MacBook and matching black 3rd gen nano I suspected they were both on the way out. But I also knew they were exactly what I wanted, so I made my peace with the possibility of being one-upped in the next update. If you know you can get what you want now, why chance it?
No regrets! ;)

[mcdj]

Has anyone stopped to consider that Apple is trying to dominate the notebook market (and are hovering around a 20% share), and that their target demographic is no longer the niche society of photographers/videographers/film editors/tweak geeks etc.?

Their target demographic is now Yunnies (http://vanishingnewyork.blogspot.com/2007/08/young-urban-narcissists_08.html), soccer moms, tweens, and legion others who possess more disposable income than tech savvy.

These people want stylish trendy electronics with shiny sleek interfaces. The majority of these consumers have never even heard of firewire, let alone miss it.

Before the iPod, Apple was like the band Elbow...extremely well crafted, under the radar, with a cult like following. Haven't heard of Elbow? Didn't think so. Now, post-iPod, Apple is like Coldplay (who admitted to copying Elbow's sound on their last album)...increasingly pop-like, less popular with their early fan base, and gaining more fans than ever.

[Moks]

Go with option 3. Get a maxed out black MacBook and you'll be good to go for a while. I'd hurry if I were you since everybody's probably got that idea now.
Or, if you need it and can afford it you still have a few months to get the 17" MBP.

And as a last resort, a Hackintosh might be something worth looking into.

Yeah, there was a blackbook in the Apple UK refurb store just after the 'event', but it went a few hours later. If I come across a good one I might go for it.

[Samwise592]

How will target disk mode work now? USB?

[Shurran]

Has anyone stopped to consider that Apple is trying to dominate the notebook market (and are hovering around a 20% share), and that their target demographic is no longer the niche society of photographers/videographers/film editors/tweak geeks etc.?

Their target demographic is now Yunnies (http://vanishingnewyork.blogspot.com/2007/08/young-urban-narcissists_08.html), soccer moms, tweens, and legion others who possess more disposable income than tech savvy.

These people want stylish trendy electronics with shiny sleek interfaces. The majority of these consumers have never even heard of firewire, let alone miss it.

Before the iPod, Apple was like the band Elbow...extremely well crafted, under the radar, with a cult like following. Haven't heard of Elbow? Didn't think so. Now, post-iPod, Apple is like Coldplay (who admitted to copying Elbow's sound on their last album)...increasingly pop-like, less popular with their early fan base, and gaining more fans than ever.

Your comparison makes no sense. Elbow's defining quality is their excellent sound - One of the things that has defined Apple is the ease of use in audio/video fields!

I agree that Apple are becoming more mainstream now, but the only reason to remove the firewire port is to stop cannibalization of the MBP market. This does not help the consumer IN ANY WAY and only ensures Apple's already excellent profit margins. I would love to see a decent reason for us the buyer and us the user why they had to remove firewire.

How will target disk mode work now? USB?

One of the things that separates USB and FW is that FW can be used to connect peripherals to each other and computers to each other - USB is only designed to connect peripherals to computers. Therefore, USB will not work for target disk mode. Unless the manufacturer allows a bypass on the HDD to go straight to the USB bus (hmm, Universal Serial Bus bus, it didn't make sense if I just put USB at the end of that sentence)

[Radiomarko]

Complete madness.

Thanks for the complaint link.

[sprice25]

im starting to think that maybe apple removed the firewire from both the macbook and pro (pro still has fw800) i think they removed them "temporarily". remember the 15 macbook pro when it was released, there was no firewire 800. then they added it. i think it is a temporary thing. if anything they are "testing" the waters to see if consumers are that reliant on the port.

[Eidorian]

im starting to think that maybe apple removed the firewire from both the macbook and pro (pro still has fw800) i think they removed them "temporarily". remember the 15 macbook pro when it was released, there was no firewire 800. then they added it. i think it is a temporary thing. if anything they are "testing" the waters to see if consumers are that reliant on the port.That was my thought too! Just keep submitting those feedback notes with your desire for FireWire.

[Samwise592]

One of the things that separates USB and FW is that FW can be used to connect peripherals to each other and computers to each other - USB is only designed to connect peripherals to computers. Therefore, USB will not work for target disk mode. Unless the manufacturer allows a bypass on the HDD to go straight to the USB bus (hmm, Universal Serial Bus bus, it didn't make sense if I just put USB at the end of that sentence)

So you're saying that target disk is no more on the new macbooks?

[Let's Sekuhara!]

i think it is a temporary thing. if anything they are "testing" the waters to see if consumers are that reliant on the port.

Let's hope so. Still it's the wrong approach. They could have simply conducted a survey!

There was a time when our studio's G5 was zapped in a power surge (yes, we use a surge protector) while workers were doing construction in the building and messing with the wiring. This caused the computer to no longer boot up - wouldn't make it to the login screen. But the data could still be accessed via Target Disk Mode. Thanks to this Firewire technology we were able to determine that the data on the drive was in tact (although the OS was inoperable) and take the appropriate steps to get up and running again.

We also have an eMac with a Combo Drive. Since we can't burn DVDs we rely on Target Disk Mode every time we need to make an iDVD project on it or back up significant amounts of data from that machine.

Even in a studio or other "pro" environment, not ALL of the machines will necessarily be pro. In other words it is perfectly reasonable to expect to be able to link up a MacBook to a MacPro. This goes against Apple's "just works" motto of intercompatibility.

These are just a couple of examples, but the point is whenever large amounts of data need to be moved in a short amount of time, Firewire comes to the rescue. Not any more. Or only for Pro users, rather. Apple has not offered an explanation for their decision or an alternative solution for replacing Firewire. It reminds me of when they released the Air without an optical drive - but then they at least provided an optional external SuperDrive and Remote Disk. Besides, the Air didn't replace an existing model so if you didn't like it you didn't have to buy it.

Dammit, I'm going to get a Firewire logo tattoo right now and flaunt it in protest of this atrocity! :p

[Wie Gehts]

The macbook is (uh, was) a great portable powerhouse for all us amateur/semi/pro musicians. FW is the defacto standard with peripherals.

If I do happen to need a second laptop in the foreseeable future, I'll switch to pc. (first time)

Apple won't be getting a dime from me.

[robanga]

If they would have conducted a survey I reckon that it still would have come out that their target market would say "what's firewire?" It is only the traditional core of that it matters to and likely that is now a much smaller percentage of Mac buyers than in the past.

[beret9987]

SHUT UP! You don't have to buy the product. The macbook is geared towards high school and college students for the most part as well as CONSUMERS. Most consumer level video cameras contain usb cables. You do not have to buy Apple's products. Apple most likely decided that the majority of people who buy macbooks do NOT use firewire, I have never used it myself and only know one person who does. And anyways if you dont want to shell out money for a mac book pro, buy a refurb or a macbook white.

You're an idiot. An absolute idiot. Yes while most consumer level video cameras DO support USB for stuff like picture transfer, every miniDV camera I have ever come across uses FIREWIRE to import its footage. So unless you're using an HDD or DVD camera, you're screwed on the macbook. Also, there is also the demograph of high school/college students that make movies or are film students and would need the Firewire port to import their footage and can't afford the Macbook Pro(sure as hell I can't and I'm one of those college students). So, yes, we're going to continue whining that there is a lack of Firewire on the Macbook, while geared towards "consumers", can't even use iMovie anymore unless you get a camera that'll support your MPEG-2 coming off your HDD or DVD camcorder. So, seriously, shut up and get back in your dog house.

[Kilamite]

If they would have conducted a survey I reckon that it still would have come out that their target market would say "what's firewire?" It is only the traditional core of that it matters to and likely that is now a much smaller percentage of Mac buyers than in the past.

Reason people would say they haven't heard of it is because they don't own any peripherals that use it........yet.

Down the line, they'll buy a cheap video camera for home movies that'll be FireWire only. Or they might get into music and fancy a bash at home recording with a cheap mixer, that will be FireWire only.

It isn't a small percentage that this matters to.

There is no reason to leave out FireWire apart from Steve being a selfish knob and wanting the Pro sales to increase.

[MrGando]

http://igoles.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/firewire.png

We need firewire. Give it back.

Damn!