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MacBytes
Oct 15, 2008, 08:03 AM
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Category: Apple Hardware
Link: No More Target Mode for New MacBooks (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20081015090351)
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Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
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yellow
Oct 15, 2008, 08:06 AM
Oh crap.. really? I didn't think about that with the loss of FW400. It doesn't work with FW800?

This is critically good help in troubleshooting! Damnit! :mad:

EDIT: silly me.. I was thinking MBP. Still.. kinda lame to do away with such a useful tool.

g4cubed
Oct 15, 2008, 08:07 AM
Oh crap.. really? I didn't think about that with the loss of FW400. It doesn't work with FW800?

This is critically good help in troubleshooting! Damnit! :mad:

The MacBooks don't have firewire at all.

The FW800 is on the Pro model.

speakerwizard
Oct 15, 2008, 08:16 AM
but if it has network migration, surely its just as easy but faster through an ethernet then?!?!, the problem with migration on the air was that it just had wireless, but on the macbook this shouldnt be a problem.

yellow
Oct 15, 2008, 08:20 AM
The MacBooks don't have firewire at all.

The FW800 is on the Pro model.

Yes. Already had edited when I noticed that.

mkrishnan
Oct 15, 2008, 08:35 AM
but if it has network migration, surely its just as easy but faster through an ethernet then?!?!, the problem with migration on the air was that it just had wireless, but on the macbook this shouldnt be a problem.

Target Disk mode is really more useful for data recovery than anything else, and perhaps secondarily for things like installation, although really only in unusual conditions. I don't know how easy it will be to get the hard drive physically out of the new Macbook shell, but the data recovery one was the biggie -- you could often get data off a Mac with a fairly badly damaged logic board in target disk mode.

ghall
Oct 15, 2008, 09:07 AM
Target Disk mode is really more useful for data recovery than anything else, and perhaps secondarily for things like installation, although really only in unusual conditions. I don't know how easy it will be to get the hard drive physically out of the new Macbook shell, but the data recovery one was the biggie -- you could often get data off a Mac with a fairly badly damaged logic board in target disk mode.

I don't know about the MacBooks, but the hard drive in the MacBook Pro seems very easily removable.

mkrishnan
Oct 15, 2008, 09:31 AM
I don't know about the MacBooks, but the hard drive in the MacBook Pro seems very easily removable.

Hopefully it stays easy -- as I understand it, it was incredibly easy in the old Macbook. That mostly obviates the major emergency use of Target Disk Mode.... One just needs to have some kind of caddy they can put it in, and at the worst, you can always get a cheap 2.5" USB enclosure for... $15 or something like that, I think?

bigandy
Oct 15, 2008, 09:56 AM
The new MacBook and MacBook Pro both have incredibly easy to access HDDs.

A lack of TDM sucks though.

deeforce
Oct 15, 2008, 10:30 AM
I used Target Disk Mode for the first time when I upgraded to my MacBook from my Cube back in July. I was AMAZED at how easy and seamless it was! I would've been ass out of luck if I waited and got the new aluminum MacBook. There HAS to be an alternative for porting over your settings from your old machine...

wordmunger
Oct 15, 2008, 10:39 AM
I used Target Disk Mode for the first time when I upgraded to my MacBook from my Cube back in July. I was AMAZED at how easy and seamless it was! I would've been ass out of luck if I waited and got the new aluminum MacBook. There HAS to be an alternative for porting over your settings from your old machine...

You can do it over ethernet.

macphisto
Oct 15, 2008, 10:46 AM
but if it has network migration, surely its just as easy but faster through an ethernet then?!?!, the problem with migration on the air was that it just had wireless, but on the macbook this shouldnt be a problem.

Not necessarily. You will need a gigabit network/switch to take full advantage of the gigabit ethernet port on the MacBook. If not, you are stuck with the 100Mbps ethernet connectivity vs the 400Mbps that firewire provided.

Firewire will surely be missed. I really hope that Apple brings it back.

Saladinos
Oct 15, 2008, 11:02 AM
Not necessarily. You will need a gigabit network/switch to take full advantage of the gigabit ethernet port on the MacBook. If not, you are stuck with the 100Mbps ethernet connectivity vs the 400Mbps that firewire provided.

Firewire will surely be missed. I really hope that Apple brings it back.

I don't. I only ever saw one firewire device, and was simply annoyed that it didn't support USB.

USB is evolving fast, and will soon become more ubiquitous than it already is. USB 3.0 and WUSB will make that you never care about lack of firewire, except for legacy devices.

Tenebrous
Oct 15, 2008, 02:27 PM
I think it sucks that they got rid of the FW400 port, myself. TDM was very useful when I migrated to my iMac. I guess I'll just look for a Powerbook when my clamshell iBook finally dies (if it ever does!).

sigismundspikul
Oct 15, 2008, 03:04 PM
I don't. I only ever saw one firewire device, and was simply annoyed that it didn't support USB.

USB is evolving fast, and will soon become more ubiquitous than it already is. USB 3.0 and WUSB will make that you never care about lack of firewire, except for legacy devices.


Any dvcpro, hdv, or dv device. Any audio interface worth mentioning. the IOI HD console (a must have for anyone using apples revolutionary pro res 4:2:2 codec), the list goes on and on, but the basic theme is almost anything that is way more expensive than your laptop runs exclusively on firewire. Firewire is a must have for professionals and even for the average imovie user.

I understand that this is not supposed to be a "pro" laptop, but I will observe that the difference between the pro line and the consumer line is very small in this latest upgrade, and the macbook has always been considered more than just a "useable" alternative to indie-pros if your on a budget crunch. I almost feel as if firewire is "being held hostage" to make sure that creative professionals will pay the extra $700. Which is backwards from the way that the rest of these industries are moving, which is that people can do more with cheaper gear.

As far as the consumer goes it seems to me that apple raised the price of the base macbook 200 dollars, removed its ability to be "useable" (although a bit slower, the macbook is by far the most widely used computer for indie to major label musicians) for any creative application, and then is just selling off the last stock of their earlier model for $100 cheaper to make it "feel" like they lowered the price when they actually raised it. The only thing that can rectify this in my opinion would be if the move is to make room in the lower price range for a low cost sub $700 "netbook" in the near future.

If thats not the case then it looks like steve jobs just added cool new designs and some minor upgrades, raised the price of the consumer line, lowered the distinction between the consumer and pro line, and then is forcing us to pay $700 more to get a $25 firewire port that we need in order to connect to our professional gear, at the same time drastically reducing the average persons imovie and garageband experience.

quarx
Oct 15, 2008, 05:12 PM
Please sign the online petition

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/MB1394/petition.html

Maybe it helps to make Apple put FireWire ports back into the consumer notebooks.

mkrishnan
Oct 15, 2008, 05:16 PM
Not necessarily. You will need a gigabit network/switch to take full advantage of the gigabit ethernet port on the MacBook. If not, you are stuck with the 100Mbps ethernet connectivity vs the 400Mbps that firewire provided.

I haven't tried the ethernet-based migration assistant, but doesn't it support a direct / ad-hoc connection? Don't you get gigabit ethernet if you just take an ethernet cable and plug one end into each of the Macs? I've done this before with non-gigabit Macs, I'd assume it's the same?

kabunaru
Oct 15, 2008, 07:47 PM
What was Apple thinking when they made this decision? Are they really that greedy and desperate for more money (people buying MacBook Pros more because of this maybe)?

alphaod
Oct 15, 2008, 09:59 PM
This sucks. I also noticed that a lot the Apple Store external drives are FW only; I'm curious how this will play out.

jodelli
Oct 16, 2008, 02:58 AM
You can do it over ethernet.

Data transfer:
Having used both methods first hand, yes you can use ethernet. But IEEE 1394 is effortless and in most cases faster.

Poff
Oct 16, 2008, 07:05 AM
all new consumer video cameras, at least at the apple store, seems to use USB 2 and not FW.

Garageband is meant for consumers, and most consumer interfaces use USB. There are a few exceptions, like the Apogee Duet.

It sort of makes sense. Most consumers don't need firewire anymore. People who shell out a lot of cash for Firewire-equipped audio or video equipment, will be able to afford a MBP, either by starving themselves or by being rich. Some people will just buy a PC, however.

I would personally want a Macbook and an Apogee Duet, so I come out as the looser. Still, from Apples point of view, I can fully understand it.

Elloise
Oct 16, 2008, 07:19 AM
To be honest I use the FW port all the time on my macbook, so with my current habits I'd miss it should I upgrade.

Apple are firmly drawing the line between consumer and pro devices here: Most uses of FW are for pro applications.

The thing is, while the hardware has taken a large step forwards, the software I use hasn't. My macbook will continue to service me until that point, at which time I'll have to take the choice on whether to upgrade to a pro machine in order to run pro apps.

I'm not over the moon that it's gone, but I understand the reasons why.

As far as the hit to data and settings migration; that's hardly a time/performance/latency critical process and you don't do it every day.

jodelli
Oct 17, 2008, 07:52 AM
Having just been in the Apple Collectors section I was remembering transferring files via serial cable. Now that was slow, but it was handier than hell at the time. Remember Apple Talk?
Started using ethernet crossover cable after that, messing about with AAUI 15 port adapters. I'll bet something like that will show up, adapters I mean. Something made for the MacBooks specifically.

Elloise
Oct 17, 2008, 08:56 AM
Feels like most of this settings migration stuff would be better handled by the .me cloud, leaving physical connection for pure file transfer. Subscription is quite a large barrier there though.

Still, it's working well for me after a HD upgrade. Old HD is in a USB2 enclosure; it wasn't my first choice but file transfer speeds are quick enough.

A friend of mine used to talk about being able to run your Home folder from your iPod as being something coming up, you would just plug it in, boot the OS from the native disc but load the user from the iPod. Did this pass me by, or never materialise?

Adamo
Oct 17, 2008, 09:53 PM
Instead of Target, could you not use a Time Machine backup and restore it to a new Mac? Or am I thinking silly?

dsmith55
Oct 20, 2008, 04:10 AM
It's kind of irritating, I work in an Apple Premium Reseller and I always suggest to customers who want to get an external hard drive (esp for Time Machine), to get a FW based one. Although USB 2.0 is theoretically faster than FW, with FW's constant data transfer rate it always ends up working faster... now people with the new aluminium Macbooks can't use that and are stuck with USB 2.0.

Target mode is especially useful from a service point of view as it's often used to try and recover people's data... now I'm not sure what we'll do..

I can see why Apple decided to move on from Firewire, but a complete withdrawal on the consumer line?

synth3tik
Oct 20, 2008, 04:24 AM
I can see why Apple decided to move on from Firewire, but a complete withdrawal on the consumer line?

I can not see why Apple moved away from Firewire. Especially seeing as they did not offer any new solution, just can out with a Migration assistant update after people already got home and set up their MBs. I don't see Apple providing another way to get the same functions as TDM.

devman
Oct 20, 2008, 08:39 AM
Instead of Target, could you not use a Time Machine backup and restore it to a new Mac? Or am I thinking silly?

not silly at all. Migration assistant will run over gigabit ethernet, or use a time machine backup as the source.

Finally, for data recovery, the HDD is easily removable and external enclosures are very cheap.

California
Nov 15, 2008, 10:40 AM
I did not understand until today that the al Mac Books do not boot into Target Disc Mode. At all. Or mine doesn't. Or I'm doing something wrong?

mkrishnan
Nov 15, 2008, 10:59 AM
I did not understand until today that the al Mac Books do not boot into Target Disc Mode. At all. Or mine doesn't. Or I'm doing something wrong?

Macbook or Macbook Pro? As above, Target Disk Mode is a feature of Firewire. No Firewire = No TDM.

AndreasJS
Nov 17, 2008, 05:09 PM
To retrieve data from a disfunctional mac w/o firewire:
1. connect to an external drive
1. insert the installation disk
2. select language
3. from the Utilities menu, select Disk utility
4. select the disk you want to examine from the list at the left
5. Select "New image"
6. Navigate to the place on the target disk where you want to put the image
7. click on "save"

You can also use the "Terminal" utility to examine individual files and move them to an external disk.