New OS X in 2004? Would you upgrade?

[SiliconAddict]

Does anyone think Apple is going to release another version of OS X in 2004 or hold off and do more in 2005? The once a year upgrade HAS to be wearing on the wallets and purses of many Mac users. Another question. Lets assume that Apple does release 10.4 this fall and it has the same incremental upgrades as the jump from 10.2 to 10.3 would you upgrade? Admittedly I'm guessing most Mac folk would need to see what Apple is offering before biting but humor me on this.

I'm just curious on the stance of Mac users when it comes to upgrading on a yearly basis. Granted I would prefer a yearly upgrade to Microsoft's 3+ years adventure in code writing but still. Thoughts?

[MacsRgr8]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Does anyone think Apple is going to release another version of OS X in 2004 or hold off and do more in 2005? The once a year upgrade HAS to be wearing on the wallets and purses of many Mac users. Another question. Lets assume that Apple does release 10.4 this fall and it has the same incremental upgrades as the jump from 10.2 to 10.3 would you upgrade?

According to the release dates of the 10.x:
10.0 = March '01
10.1 = September '01
10.2 = July '02
10.3 = October '03

10.0 >> 10.1 = 6 months
10.1 >> 10.2 = 10 months (= + 4 months)
10.2 >> 10.3 = 15 months (= + 5 months)
10.3 >> 10.4 = 21 months??? (= + 6 months based on the difference of 1 month extra wait each time... ;) )

So 10.4 will be released July in 2005 :D

And yes, I will probably buy it assuming that Apple does release 10.4 (next summer) and it has the same incremental upgrades as the jump from 10.2 to 10.3

[SilentPanda]

According to my .sig I must upgrade! I'm only a creature of habit!

[johnnyjibbs]

I'd say Christmas at the very earliest. And I think it would have to be some pretty big update, as Panther has most of what people need. (Bug fixes will come as minor updates).

This would leave the field open for new innovative things.

Luckily, Apple hasn't left Jaguar users in the dark (they can still run everything that Apple offers) so you don't need panther. Always tempting though! Again, with 10.4, you won't have to get it, and your Mac will run fine without it. But you know you'll want it really.

Maybe when 10.4 comes out they should let owners of 10.1 upgrade to Jaguar for free? They have paid for OS X once after all...

[Horrortaxi]

If the new version has significant upgrades to Panther then I'd get it. Based on past experiences it will have significant upgrades. I have no idea what they could be though--I thought Jaguar was pretty perfect until Panther came out.

[Doraemon]

Originally posted by MacsRgr8
According to the release dates of the 10.x:
10.0 = March '01
10.1 = September '01
10.2 = July '02
10.3 = October '03

10.0 >> 10.1 = 6 months
10.1 >> 10.2 = 10 months (= + 4 months)
10.2 >> 10.3 = 15 months (= + 5 months)
10.3 >> 10.4 = 21 months??? (= + 6 months based on the difference of 1 month extra wait each time... ;) )

So 10.4 will be released July in 2005 :D

And yes, I will probably buy it assuming that Apple does release 10.4 (next summer) and it has the same incremental upgrades as the jump from 10.2 to 10.3

Here's a list to second that:

http://www.theapplemuseum.com/index.php?id=tam&page=timeline&subpage=os

[jxyama]

expose and FUS were two reasons i upgraded. so unless 10.4 offers something substantial, i won't bother upgrading immediately like i did with panther.

if 10.4 came with "iLife '05" or whatever they might call the next version with improvements in each of iApps, then i'd consider more strongly. as is, there's no definitive word on whether iLife and OS X are now completely separate things or not...

[7on]

I'll prolly stick with 10.3 till 10.5, unless you know they bundle iLife with it.


EDIT: lol, to anyone complaining about the numbering style of OSX, look at OS7. 1991-1997 and only reaching 7.6.1

[johnnyjibbs]

Originally posted by 7on
EDIT: lol, to anyone complaining about the numbering style of OSX, look at OS7. 1991-1997 and only reaching 7.6.1
I like the numbering system now. They had to get up to 10 (hence OS 9 not being very long) so that they could use the 'X' and help differentiate this OS from the classic OS. Otherwise, people may have gotten confused about it, thinking it was just another, more refined, step upgrade.

Notice too how 10.3 is marketed as "Panther" to the extent that "10.3" is generally omitted. This is another good thing IMO as you immediately know what they're talking about and it sounds much different to Jaguar. Granted, 10.2 was branded "Jaguar" but they still referenced the "10.2" a lot more in the text.

Question is, when do they start Mac OS 11/XI?

[janey]

keep in mind most of Apple's OS upgrades are worth the upgrade price...Even though Apple takes around a year to release a new update, that update is just as major as one of Microsoft's.
So its sorta cheaper...
Besides you dont *need* the latest OS with the latest updates to use it, its jsut that some apps are 10.3 only etc. and some apps wont work in 10.3 blah blah...
(you could always solve that by partitioning your drive and installing different versions on different partitions)

so imho I'd love to upgrade, no matter what the cost. It's completely worth the $70 :) (edu price)

[jeffy.dee-lux]

what do you suppose you'll need to run 10.4 when it comes out? i've got a 500mHz imac, i'm wondering whether 10.3 is the last one i'll be able to run and maybe i should upgrade to that as i'm on 10.2 now. but then haven't i heard of some guy running panther on the first gen imac or something?
if i can, i'd like to hold out untill 10.4, cause yeah, i can't really justify the 100$ a year upgrade thing as a poor student.

[gopher]

You can count on 10.4 to only run on G4s and G5s. The 10.3 milestone was reached by saying it could only run on new world ROM machines. The next major advancement in Apple's hardware architecture was the switch to G4s. I'm sure there will be people upset about it, but it seems inevitable that at some point they will drop G3s. Doesn't mean your G3 isn't a perfectly good machine, but Apple has to draw the line somewhere, otherwise overtax its support staff.

[Powerbook G5]

I'm a poor student but I will find the money to upgrade to 10.4. These upgrades have always proven to me to be worthwhile and important. I have no doubt that 10.4 will make me wet myself when I see specs and details concerning the added and updated features over Panther.

[junior]

I think in the last Keynote Steve Jobs said that 'The transition is over'. This was when he was describing the OS upgrades since OS9.
So I don't believe there'll be upgrades as frequently as there has been, apart from updates of course.
This is unless they don't release an update to 10.3 to make it fully 64bit.
In which case 10.4 might just be a 64bit upgrade for G5 owners. If that doesn't happen, then maybe our next major upgrade (10.4, XI?) might not be coming for at least another couple of years.
Just my opinion.

[redkore]

What with the "transition", there's more money to be made from updating the OS.

I expect they'll keep to their regular-ish schedule, not slow down.

[Foxer]

I hope that they manage to do it sometime around the Sept./Oct. window. I'm planning on buying a new G5 and cinema display that night since they tend to offer 10% discounts at those occassions.

[janey]

Originally posted by jeffy.dee-lux
if i can, i'd like to hold out untill 10.4, cause yeah, i can't really justify the 100$ a year upgrade thing as a poor student.
urm yeah there's something called an edu discount?
http://www.apple.com/education/store/

[latergator116]

I wish apple would release a *great* every two years than a half-ass os (i.e. jaguar) every year. Im really getting tired of these yearly os upgrades.:rolleyes:

[jeffy.dee-lux]

Originally posted by übergeek
urm yeah there's something called an edu discount?
http://www.apple.com/education/store/

yeah, thanks for the sass dude.
i'm from montreal, regular price for panther is $180.

[johnnyjibbs]

Originally posted by gopher
You can count on 10.4 to only run on G4s and G5s. The 10.3 milestone was reached by saying it could only run on new world ROM machines. The next major advancement in Apple's hardware architecture was the switch to G4s. I'm sure there will be people upset about it, but it seems inevitable that at some point they will drop G3s. Doesn't mean your G3 isn't a perfectly good machine, but Apple has to draw the line somewhere, otherwise overtax its support staff.
Apple has focused on G4s upward recently, but I can't help but feel that they'll be plenty of annoyed iBook owners if they cut out the G3s next time. iBooks were G3 until October remember.

[Counterfit]

I don't see Apple cutting out the G3's until 10.5 at the earliest. And I think it won't be at least until 11/XI until they go to 64-bit, otherwise they'd be cutting off everyone with a G4, which should be capable of running 10.x, and maybe even 11 depending on how far they go with the 10.x scheme.

[mms]

I expect Apple to keep innovating and keep turning out great OS's every once in a while, although I wouldn't expect them to do it this frequently. Innovation is what Apple is all about, and the superior OS compared to Windows is one of the big reasons why Apple has such a loyal fan base. Since all Microsoft does is copy Apple, they have to keep releasing new things to stay ahead of the competition. Even if Microsoft copied all of the features of OS X they wouldn't get it as perfect, but we Mac users need some things to show off to PC users (like Expose).

Like some others have said, I would rather they took more time to develop the OS and make it work perfectly before releasing it. The recent problems such as the Panther Firewire disk problems and the 12'' PB fan problems in 10.3.2 come to mind. Not to mention the frequent security updates that have been released recently. They're nowhere as frequent as Microsoft, but the less there is, the better.

[Squire]

Originally posted by jxyama
expose and FUS were two reasons i upgraded. so unless 10.4 offers something substantial, i won't bother upgrading immediately like i did with panther.

if 10.4 came with "iLife '05" or whatever they might call the next version with improvements in each of iApps, then i'd consider more strongly. as is, there's no definitive word on whether iLife and OS X are now completely separate things or not...

This post is exactly what I was going to write. To be honest, I'm a little disappointed with Panther. It's not noticeably faster (on my machine, at least) and I don't seem to use a lot of the new features. Expose is pretty cool but I don't think it's worth the price tag. I have found Fast User Switching to be helpful. I can log my 2-year old son in and still download stuff in the background without worrying about him wrecking things.

I also think that they should include iLife with the OS. It would make a lot more people feel better about paying for frequent updates.

Squire

[dukemeiser]

I would definately upgrade. I like having the latest and greatest features. I also like having the latest software. If I hadn't gotten Panther, I couldn't use Safari 1.2.

As for requirements, I'm betting on built-in FireWire. That would shut out the first iMacs up to 400 Mhz. They won't cut out recent G3 users for some time. It was five years before they shut out Beige G3 users (1998-2003) with Panther. As long as your system has decent hardware, why shut out older users? That would just hurt OS sales. According to that, G3s should be supported until 2008.

[bousozoku]

Yes, but it's about time for another free major upgrade.

There were plenty of speed and stability upgrades in 10.3 but it's definitely not the end. It still feels as if it's only 75 percent done. After the little bits from 7.6 to 9.0 which were paid releases, I'm glad to see more meat, but it's difficult to make up 17 years' of progress when you're practically starting all over again.

[spaceballl]

Originally posted by gopher
You can count on 10.4 to only run on G4s and G5s.
You can count on that being wrong... Apple still sells G3 iBooks in their refurb section. They're not going to obsolete a customer, refurb or not, in one year. Furthermore, each version of OSX has gotten faster and faster on older computers. They're on a roll. Whey would they just give up now?
-Kevin

[johnnyjibbs]

Yes, I doubt they'll drop support for the G3, maybe people should start worrying if they have a B&W though as I think that's pretty much bottom of the Panther food chain now and, oh year, clamshell iBooks. Maybe built-in FireWire will become the requirement, as someone else said. Or maybe graphics power...

[Powerbook G5]

If they are going to go up against Longhorn, I'll have to venture a guess that if anything, a beefier 3D card that can handle Quartz Extreme or a newer update to the graphics engine will be required since the "revolutionary graphics engine" is what so many Windows users seem to be the most excited with. If MS were to do a tech demo right before releasing Longhorn, then Jobs were to go into a keynote and blow them away with 10.4 having a graphics system that leapfrogs it without a sweat, all those people out there waiting to see if Longhorn is all that may find themselves suddenly wondering why OS X is still so much better and that'll be something that could solidify once and for all that OS X is the best OS for the modern day power users who want the best of everything.

[Hodapp]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
If they are going to go up against Longhorn, I'll have to venture a guess that if anything, a beefier 3D card that can handle Quartz Extreme or a newer update to the graphics engine will be required since the "revolutionary graphics engine" is what so many Windows users seem to be the most excited with. If MS were to do a tech demo right before releasing Longhorn, then Jobs were to go into a keynote and blow them away with 10.4 having a graphics system that leapfrogs it without a sweat, all those people out there waiting to see if Longhorn is all that may find themselves suddenly wondering why OS X is still so much better and that'll be something that could solidify once and for all that OS X is the best OS for the modern day power users who want the best of everything.

PBG5 I could not agree more. I can't wait until M$ releases it's new "revolutionary" COWHORN operating system in a gigantic press conference, which Bill Gate$ will no doubt spend millions on, to showcase their version of 10.1. Ohh it will surely be a great day to be a Mac user.

I can't wait, because, on the next Keynote, our lord and master, THE ALMIGHTY STEVE JOBS (CEO of Pixar <3) will unveil a new operating system that will shake the very foundations of Earth in an operating revolution not seen since the invention of the 'window' (which M$ stole I might add). I would liken it to the second coming of a operating system christ, to save all the sinners running M$ software.

I just hope Apple can price their machines at a price point that when CLOWNHORN is released, the legions of disappointed M$ followers and businesses can hop aboard the wonderful cruise ship that is Apple Computers without taking on too much debt. (One thing this country needs less of, with that crook Bush in office.)

So in conclusion I hope that 10.4 is released on the same day that BURGERHORN is, that way when all the PC zealots camping outside of Comp USA for their copy bust down the doors, they can all take home Macs pre-loaded with 10.4 instead.

IT WILL BE A GLORIOUS DAY FOR APPLE!!!

[airborne]

Originally posted by io_burn
IT WILL BE A GLORIOUS DAY FOR APPLE!!!
It will also be a glorious day for me, my friend, as the rivers run red with the blood of those sheep who trample one another in droves to buy this CORNHORN release!

Meanwhile, in my bedroom, I will bask in the flickering orange glow of the candles that adorn my altar to the God of Computing, Steven Paul Jobs, as I pop open my Safari browser and read the news reports of the many killed in riotous herds outside of CompUSA.

My soul is triumphant!!!

[Powerbook G5]

I think someone slipped something into your kool-aid today.

[airborne]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I think someone slipped something into your kool-aid today.
The only thing in my Kool-Aid, my dear friend, is the passionate love of an Apple user.

I mix my Kool-Aid with pure apple juice because water is so plain and boring, like the beige generi-PCs running that horrid, monopolistic Win-Doze, and I won't abide it!

[Hodapp]

Wow, that's a great idea, I'll have to try that.

edit: Sorry for the derail.

[airborne]

Originally posted by io_burn
Wow, that's a great idea, I'll have to try that.
Oh my god, it tastes so good, it's like the same feeling you get when you realize that you haven't rebooted your Mac in two months and your PC-using friends are reinstalling WINBLOWS every TWO DAYS.

[plasticparadox]

It must be difficult to type when you've got your face in Steve Job's lap.

No, but seriously, Apple computers are great. But there's a difference between using a computer to enrich your life and having a computer being the focal point of your life.

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by airborne
like the beige generi-PCs running that horrid, monopolistic Win-Doze, and I won't abide it! You upset my beige G3 you monster! Now apoligise for hurting its feelings :p

[Nermal]

Ha! Nobody will apologise for that non-Panther-compatible excuse for a system :p

Now stop offending my LC III :)

[adt]

Originally posted by airborne
Oh my god, it tastes so good, it's like the same feeling you get when you realize that you haven't rebooted your Mac in two months and your PC-using friends are reinstalling WINBLOWS every TWO DAYS.

Oh man, i just fell off my chair!

[mj_1903]

Some information from the horses mouth:
- 10.4 (no codename has been released with this version, by this time all documentation had it called Panther) does run on G3's. Quote "...there is no technical reason for it not to. There is more of a technical reason to only run on G5's though..."
- 10.4 will contain some serious updates for business uses (aka networking, further integration with Exchange and Windows servers)
- 10.4 will see 20-25% increase in speed for normal operations. This will mainly be from cleaner code and better linking. AFAIK no speed changes are being made to the kernel although there are many notable ones that could be made.

I expect the standard GUI change to match the Jaguar and Panther changes. I am not expecting anything new and major as that does not seem to be Apple's main goal right now.

[gopher]

Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
Apple has focused on G4s upward recently, but I can't help but feel that they'll be plenty of annoyed iBook owners if they cut out the G3s next time. iBooks were G3 until October remember.

Yes, that's true...but they cut out Mac IIvx users out of the loop only 3 months after it was released. And that's even though the IIvx was the first computer with the first CD-ROM drive. You can only upgrade a IIvx to 7.6, whereas a Quadra upgrades to 8.1.

[ITR 81]

I hope 10.4 brings some 3D to our desktops.

I'm buying regardless since I want iLife 4 and at $69 bucks thats a steal.

[zupchuck]

If were to hazard a guess, we'll get real 64-bit computing (whatever its moniker) before LongShoreman comes out so as to pre-empt Balmer. For those of us who bought G5s already, we deserve it.

[sethypoo]

Knowing Apple and how they make upgrades worth it, yes I would in fact upgrade to 10.4.

It helps that I get an educational discount. :D

[WM.]

Originally posted by gopher
Yes, that's true...but they cut out Mac IIvx users out of the loop only 3 months after it was released. And that's even though the IIvx was the first computer with the first CD-ROM drive. You can only upgrade a IIvx to 7.6, whereas a Quadra upgrades to 8.1.
They replaced the IIvx with a newer model (Centris 650) 3 months after it was released. They didn't stop providing OS upgrades for it until OS 8, as you imply, which came out in July 1997 IIRC--about five years after the IIvx was released.

WM

[WM.]

Originally posted by mms
The recent problems such as the Panther Firewire disk problems and the 12'' PB fan problems in 10.3.2 come to mind. Not to mention the frequent security updates that have been released recently. They're nowhere as frequent as Microsoft, but the less there is, the better.
I'll agree with you on the Panther FireWire problems. But I don't think we should blame Apple for the PB fan thing in 10.3.2 or security updates. The new fan behavior in 10.3.2 is apparently supposed to help keep the machine cooler; certainly this wouldn't be needed if Apple had reduced the heat output of the Rev. A 12-inch (my understanding is that they pretty much fixed the problem with Rev. B). As for security updates, the most recent two have mostly involved Apple components, but many of the others are fixes for things like SSL and Apache, which Apple has no responsibility for (aside from passing the fixes along to their customers) and which affect most other *nixes just as much.

IMHO, MS has a lot of security fixes because they have shoddy design principles. Apple has "a lot" of security fixes because they are responsive to the few flaws there are. (They're not without their faults, certainly, but I think in general they do a pretty good job.)

WM

[Powerbook G5]

I haven't experienced any Firewire issues yet, but I have a limited number of FW devices to go on. I have yet to hear my fan go on so I am assuming this fan issue is only present in the 12"? Besides that, Panther has been great and 10.4 will only get better. The security patches aren't that numerous compared to XP, and the points raised are valid, since most of these patches are because of the Unix side of things and it's nice to see how quickly Apple has been keeping on top of it.

[WM.]

Originally posted by gopher
You can count on 10.4 to only run on G4s and G5s. The 10.3 milestone was reached by saying it could only run on new world ROM machines. The next major advancement in Apple's hardware architecture was the switch to G4s. I'm sure there will be people upset about it, but it seems inevitable that at some point they will drop G3s. Doesn't mean your G3 isn't a perfectly good machine, but Apple has to draw the line somewhere, otherwise overtax its support staff.
Other people have already addressed the "what about the iBook?" rebuttal here, but there's another thing too: as far as the user was concerned, I suppose the G4 was the next major advance, but it came at the same time as another big change that is (AFAIK) more important when it comes to OS support: the introduction of the Unified Motherboard Architecture (Uni-North + KeyLargo). I believe the first UMA-equipped products to be announced were the original iBook and the slot-loading iMacs, followed shortly by the Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics) and finally, a few months later, the PowerBook G3 (FireWire). Trying to squeeze all that information into a System Requirements thing on the box might be a bit tough--there are essentially no external differences between the Power Mac G4 (PCI Graphics) and the Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics)*, but the latter would be compatible with 10.4/whatever while the former would not. But I'm sure Apple could figure it out.

Of course, I'm biased towards the UMA rather than the G4 being the next minimum requirement, because I own one of the slowest UMA-equipped Macs (clamshell iBook). :)

I notice that some people think built-in FireWire will be the next cutoff. Y'all are confusing features with architecture. Adding FireWire to the iMac and iBook didn't mark a change in architecture, nor was the architecture of the FireWire-equipped B&W G3 much (if at all) different from that of the non-FireWire-equipped Lombard PowerBook.

I'm biased here too, because my iBook doesn't have FireWire either. :)

It is kind of curious that built-in FireWire is required for DVD playback in OS X, but I think this was the easiest way for Apple to specify that it requires at least a Rage 128 (all non-FireWire-equipped systems have Rage II's or Rage Pro's or similar GPUs).

WM

* The AGP one has the audio in/out ports in a different configuration (horizontal vs. vertical) and its FireWire ports are spaced much further apart.

[WM.]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I haven't experienced any Firewire issues yet, but I have a limited number of FW devices to go on. I have yet to hear my fan go on so I am assuming this fan issue is only present in the 12"?
I think a few people were reporting it in the 15", but we haven't experienced it, or any issues with FireWire for that matter.
Besides that, Panther has been great and 10.4 will only get better. The security patches aren't that numerous compared to XP, and the points raised are valid, since most of these patches are because of the Unix side of things and it's nice to see how quickly Apple has been keeping on top of it.
Agreed.

WM

[gopher]

The firewire issues are going to be difficult if not impossible for Apple to fix. Numerous hard drive vendors are reluctant to make a firmware update available for Mac OS X 10.3 to be able to use their drives without any symptoms. Apple is not admitting that Firewire 400 is as impacted as Firewire 800, and that makes it more difficult because many vendors are taking Apple at its word and what it is admitting. So far only three vendors have made Firewire 400 cases compatible with Panther:

SmartDisk - since it doesn't use Oxford 911
Granite Digital - since it doesn't use Oxford 911
MacAlly which has ported Oxford's own 3.8 firmware updater for its Firewire 400 drives. MacAlly's update may or may not work on other makes of Oxford 911 drives.

Until Apple admits Firewire 400 is a problem, you will see only Firewire 800 patches from the rest fo the vendors on this list:

http://www.macmaps.com/firewirebug.html

I suggest submitting feedback to the links provided in the above Firewire bug FAQ to Oxford, Apple, and your hard drive case manufacturer to get an update available to the firmware if your drive is impacted.

[amin]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Another question. Lets assume that Apple does release 10.4 this fall and it has the same incremental upgrades as the jump from 10.2 to 10.3 would you upgrade?
Yes, I'm very happy with the price per incremental upgrade ration in going from Jag to Panther.

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by gopher
Until Apple admits Firewire 400 is a problem, you will see only Firewire 800 patches

Technically, shouldn't these hardware venders have the common sense and business sense to actually test their hardware to make sure that it is compatible instead of relying purely on what Apple tells them?

[virividox]

id upgrade if 10.4 had a lot of improvements over panther.

[jeffy.dee-lux]

have you guys checked out this thread?
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59443

who knows whether there's any truth to this. I feel that a 3D UI would be enough to make a jump in the numbering scheme anyways, os11, maybe what he's talking about isn't actually for 10.4 but for farther down the road. either way, i'm gonna be gettin 10.4 cause when i got jaguar like an idiot about a week before panther was announced (this is also about when i started paying attention to rumour sites) i figured i'd just skip 10.3 altogether, and settle with a two year update cycle.

[gopher]

While I agree businesses need to have more sense, unfortunately many are blinded by marketshare numbers and forget that Mac users exist. Only if we holler loud enough will they make their firmware updates available. Today, I got a customer who has a Firewire 400 drive from http://www.aicmicro.com/ It appears to have suffered the Panther bug. As it stands, only sometimes is it able to mount on the machine, other times it is totally invisible to all utilities and System Profiler. AIC Micro has no firmware updates available on their website and they claim to believe Apple's word. He had only left the drive mounted through one restart and that's all it took.