MacBooks now made in China would cost how much more if made in US?

[The Dillhole]

I recently received my new aluminum MacBook from China, where I am told that the product is manufactured with very cheap labor. I hope the workers aren't being exploited. Has anyone ever figured out how much more MacBooks would cost if they were manufactured domestically? Thank you.

[mark!]

This is all off the top of my head so take this with a grain of salt but...

I'm pretty sure that Apple has been getting all of their stuff manufactured in China for a while. While there is labor exploitation, many are satisfied with simply being employed.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Apple has come under the spotlight once before for the factory working conditions in China (I think this was about a year ago). I can't remember how that turned out though.

I don't think there is a way for any of us to know how much it would cost if they moved those jobs to the US, but it'd be so high no one would even dream of paying for a true domestic Apple product.

[da2005pizimp]

yeah but if they moved to the US then it would create jobs for Americans. My aunt was just "let go" b/c her job is moving some place in asia. These companies should be hit hard by taxes for moving out of the US

[Aea]

yeah but if they moved to the US then it would create jobs for Americans. My aunt was just "let go" b/c her job is moving some place in asia. These companies should be hit hard by taxes for moving out of the US

On the contrary we should reduce their taxes, you're so naive.

[MasterNile]

You also have to take into account how much money they would save as you figure quality control would be better meaning less replacements/repairs, although I realize it would still be pretty expensive, I don't think a lot of people take that into account when realizing the cost of using domestic labor.

[Cave Man]

I hope Apple continues to make their computers in China. I'm not sure how I'd be able to use a computer without mercury, lead or melamine in it.

[robbieduncan]

You also have to take into account how much money they would save as you figure quality control would be better meaning less replacements/repairs

What makes you think that a bunch of minimum wage labour in the USA would be any better than in China? Do you really think that a load of people dodging a "career" of asking "would you like to supersize that" would turn out a quality product? Or would they just slap them together without much care? I know which I think is more likely...

[MasterNile]

What makes you think that a bunch of minimum wage labour in the USA would be any better than in China? Do you really think that a load of people dodging a "career" of asking "would you like to supersize that" would turn out a quality product? Or would they just slap them together without much care? I know which I think is more likely...

I suppose you do have a point, but they also have supervisors that make the big bucks and would prefer to keep their jobs. I suppose I'm mainly basing my previous post on the fact that I've gotten all of my Macs (3 total) from the US as they were refurbished and never had any problem w/ any of them, but I suppose that's a lot smaller scale than mass producing the whole line from the US and it's always possible that I just got lucky with my 3 refurbs (iMac, MB, and Mac Mini)

[da2005pizimp]

On the contrary we should reduce their taxes, you're so naive.

ummm ok

All i'm saying is that we need more jobs here. When you lose your job b/c they are moving out of the country then maybe you will understand.

[synth3tik]

Chinese laborer = approx $3-4 hourly
American laborer = approx $12-20 hourly

This came from my former employer and most likely differs from Apple, but is relative to the tech market.

[savar]

Chinese laborer = approx $3-4 hourly
American laborer = approx $12-20 hourly

This came from my former employer and most likely differs from Apple, but is relative to the tech market.

True. The amount of human labor that goes into making a macbook is not very big, however. Most of the process is automated. Far more of the cost goes into materials, overhead, and profits than into labor.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Chinese workers. Most big companies play by the rules now (meaning no exploitation) -- and it sure beats the pants out of communist labor structures: living in the factory and having every aspect of your life managed by your overseer (when you wake up, when you sleep, where you go, etc.)

[iJon]

American's can't and don't want to afford products that could be made in America.

[Thomas Veil]

For so long we've been looking at it in terms of, "Oh no, we can't give these jobs to American workers! They'll demand actual salaries instead of pittances!" that we're kinda brainwashed that way. So we reap what we sow: a lot of jobs that could be making people good money here are in China. Or Malaysia. Or wherever.

Yeah, a Mac would cost you more, but if you had that job (or a similar one with another manufacturer in the U.S.), you could afford it that much better. That's the way it was in this country during the entire post-WWII industrial boom.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, IMO.

Don't forget, we didn't start exporting jobs so we could have cheap goods. We started exporting jobs because companies wanted to keep more of the profit for themselves. It was hardly altruistic.

At least if we have those jobs in the US, we do two things: we give ourselves more rewarding jobs than handing out shopping carts at Wal-Mart, and we stop sending so much money to countries that don't like us very much. (Where've we heard that before? ;) )

[larapumkin]

some of my friends work in fashion industry in LA, and many wholesaler's are changing their manufacturer to chinese. donno exactly how cheaper they offer but my friends explained briefly, like complicately sew leather jacket cost more than half less than producing those in here if they do it from china..including packing and shipping costs

[mark!]

ummm ok

All i'm saying is that we need more jobs here. When you lose your job b/c they are moving out of the country then maybe you will understand.

Not that 100% of either of these populations could/would be employed, but I'm sure the 300 million people here will fare better than the 1 billion in China whether or not the jobs come back here or stay in China.

The matter of creating jobs is a lot more complicated than you'd like to think it is.

People in America (or rather, the people that run American companies) would rather outsource these jobs than create domestic ones for people who don't even want them. Globalization :o

[The Dillhole]

Chinese laborer = approx $3-4 hourly
American laborer = approx $12-20 hourly

This came from my former employer and most likely differs from Apple, but is relative to the tech market.

Given what another person said about Apple products not being particularly labor-intensive for manufacturing, this difference in hourly wage may not translate to a tremendously higher per unit cost to the American consumer. I'm sure the accountants in Cupertino have figured all this out and have decided that it makes more business sense to manufacture in China, but I would really like to know how much more it would cost me my MacBook were a US-made product. I'm all for globalization, but if paying another few hundred dollars means no worker exploitation, then I'm all for it.

[Thomas Veil]

Unfortunately, Dillhole, you're in the minority (being willing to pay a lot more). (And I doubt it would add that much more anyway. As savar alluded to, there may not be all that much human labor (vs. robotics, e.g.).

Actually, there are a few furniture manufacturers who already have or are considering moving back to the states. Reason: when they add in shipping the raw materials over there, then shipping the finished product back over here, it actually costs more to make it in China than in the United States.

Now, if you want to read about exploitation, check out the Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas Islands (http://www.democracynow.org/2006/1/4/forced_abortions_sweatshops_a_look_at), where passports of workers are seized and women are forced to get abortions.

[da2005pizimp]

that's good to hear about furniture companies moving back to the states. and i' also willing to pay the extra amount to have an american made product. I'm not hating on other countries but we need to take of ourselves first.

[it5five]

Most of my clothes are made here in the US. But I don't buy it just because of that. I wouldn't have any problems buying clothes from overseas if I knew the workers were getting a fair wage and were being treated like human beings. Until that can be guaranteed, I'll continue to buy my clothes from US manufacturers.

[MasterNile]

Given what another person said about Apple products not being particularly labor-intensive for manufacturing, this difference in hourly wage may not translate to a tremendously higher per unit cost to the American consumer. I'm sure the accountants in Cupertino have figured all this out and have decided that it makes more business sense to manufacture in China, but I would really like to know how much more it would cost me my MacBook were a US-made product. I'm all for globalization, but if paying another few hundred dollars means no worker exploitation, then I'm all for it.

See but even if the workers are being exploited they are not working in shops where they are being exploited for the fun of it they are working there because they need the bare minimum of funds that it provides

And as far as the people saying yeah it would be nice if they were built in the US but I'll still buy them no matter what:

This is the point though, it's not like you say if the Mac computers are built in China I refused to buy them, and this is all the higher ups see, "we're making sales so why move the operation to America when we're doing so good making them in China with cheap labor and selling them for big bucks in the US," now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say boycott Apple till they start manufacturing in the US, if a company doesn't have enough money to stay afloat there's no way they're going to move their operation to the US, I'm saying stand up and be heard, send an email, voice your opinion although it may fall upon deaf ears, it also may not and a lot of times telling a company that they've lost a sale because of this may cause them to consider different approaches and maybe even move their manufacturing to the US or at least to the UK where they have their other facility. As was stated before a lot of the process is automated so if it makes some kind of business sense it's a possibility of it happening (like the removal of FW from the MB or the glassy screen on the MBP make some kind of sense).

[Henri Gaudier]

With 25$ billion in the bank isn't it simply greed? I'd prefer a company with 10 billion in the bank but who gave meaningful employment in it's own country any day. Second choice would be a company that made overseas, who could have had 25 billion in the bank but instead chose to have a better paid workforce and lower high street prices. So old and yet so naive! How do I keep my youthful idealism? :D

[Abstract]

I suppose you do have a point, but they also have supervisors that make the big bucks and would prefer to keep their jobs. I suppose I'm mainly basing my previous post on the fact that I've gotten all of my Macs (3 total) from the US as they were refurbished and never had any problem w/ any of them

And that's when you proved robbieduncan correct. ;)

They've been made in China or Taiwan for a looooong time now.

American's can't and don't want to afford products that could be made in America.

Americans want more products to be made in America, as long as they don't have to pay any extra. :rolleyes:



I wouldn't worry too much about the Chinese workers. Most big companies play by the rules now (meaning no exploitation).....

Seriously?

[rdowns]

You also have to take into account how much money they would save as you figure quality control would be better meaning less replacements/repairs, although I realize it would still be pretty expensive, I don't think a lot of people take that into account when realizing the cost of using domestic labor.

I don't know where you get that from. Why are American cars less reliable than most foreign cars?

I suppose you do have a point, but they also have supervisors that make the big bucks and would prefer to keep their jobs. I suppose I'm mainly basing my previous post on the fact that I've gotten all of my Macs (3 total) from the US as they were refurbished and never had any problem w/ any of them, but I suppose that's a lot smaller scale than mass producing the whole line from the US and it's always possible that I just got lucky with my 3 refurbs (iMac, MB, and Mac Mini)

Your refurb Macs were made in China, they are not produced here. Refurbs are products that were either defective, discontinued or returned by consumers. Apple cleans them up and resells them.

[MasterNile]

Your refurb Macs were made in China, they are not produced here. Refurbs are products that were either defective, discontinued or returned by consumers. Apple cleans them up and resells them.

Yes I realize that, I'm not saying refurbs are made in the US, i'm saying refurbs are repaired in the US and I've never had any problems with quality control, although I do see the flaw in the logic there because repairing a computer with a known problem is far different then checking every computer coming off the assembly line for flaws.

[leekohler]

On the contrary we should reduce their taxes, you're so naive.

Sorry- you outsource jobs, there should be a penalty.

[adk]

I don't know where you get that from. Why are American cars less reliable than most foreign cars?



Because they're made in Mexico :D



Anyways, the laws of supply and demand, not idealism, will always dictate the price of a good. My question is: Why should anybody pay an American $20 and hour to do a job when somebody in another country can do the same thing for $5 an hour?

[Mousse]

Like all companies, they price items at what the market will bear. How much enough people are willing to pay for a machine, they will price it accordingly. If there are enough people willing to pay $1300 for a MB, that's what Apple will charge, regardless of what it cost them to manufacture. Basic economics.

Why do you think they can get away with selling the original iPhone for $500. It was one of a kind. They could have priced it at $1000 and still sold. Not as much, but they'd still move. Now they've got plenty of competition, the market won't allow for a $500 iPhone anymore. A lot of people will look else where if the iPhone G3 were priced at $500.

[Aea]

Sorry- you outsource jobs, there should be a penalty.

That was blatant sarcasm, can't believe nobody picked up on it :)

[da2005pizimp]

That was blatant sarcasm, can't believe nobody picked up on it :)

i picked up on it and it, but you made no point so it was not a good post.

[EV0LUTION]

I'm in web design/college student and every job I have seen done by an outsourced person is complete crap. I end up cleaning up their crappy work and getting paid twice my normal rate (I do these a lot). So keep sucking you Indians!

Maybe its just me, but outsourced electronics seem to be put together better than an American made electronic.

[MacLadybug]

What about NAFTA?

[Henri Gaudier]

Anyways, the laws of supply and demand, not idealism, will always dictate the price of a good. My question is: Why should anybody pay an American $20 and hour to do a job when somebody in another country can do the same thing for $5 an hour?

Because it creates poverty where you live and gives prosperity to where your goods are made. You will become weak and they will become powerful. Your life expectancy and those of your friends and family will fall, crime and anti-social behaviour will increase. And more ......

Move towards the ideal of shared prosperity but don't forget, as much as the 3rd world needs assistance, so do the people of the towns, the length and breadth of Europe, America etc.

[jeremy h]

I can see a time (perhaps a long way off) where manufacturing ends up being spread quite evenly. As the developing countries become richer and their people command higher wages their goods will cost more and there won't be the incentive to 'outsource'.

It's going to be painful for us in the meantime in the developed world but why shouldn't the poorer nations get a slice of the action? We think we're getting poorer day by day in the West (and at the moment we probably are!) But...

"56 percent of the world's population lives in extreme poverty. They survive on an income of less than $730 per year or $2 per day."

We'd have to fall an awfully long way to meet that.

[angelneo]

Chinese laborer = approx $3-4 hourly
American laborer = approx $12-20 hourly

This came from my former employer and most likely differs from Apple, but is relative to the tech market.
If you are talking about Chinese assembly line workers, you can go a lot lower than that.


I'm in web design/college student and every job I have seen done by an outsourced person is complete crap. I end up cleaning up their crappy work and getting paid twice my normal rate (I do these a lot). So keep sucking you Indians!

Maybe its just me, but outsourced electronics seem to be put together better than an American made electronic.
Different job type yields different results when outsourced, obviously stuff like customer support, if outsourced would be detrimential due to language and culture barrier. It's also harder to keep an eye on outsourced jobs especially in the QA department. Assembly line work will be harder to fault.

[garybUK]

Governments in those countries give tax breaks to companies willing to setup shop there, it's all about the bottom line, operational expenditure (including Land, Building Rent, Facilities, Wages, Taxes etc) are all a lot lower there.

They can then afford to pay 3 or 4 people to do a job over there and it would still be lower than the price of one person here!

The trouble (my company) is seeing in India, as more companies move in the people who got the training from one company leave and they are having huge trouble with retention.

These countries are building economies, not on their own, but on the back of other countries and it's not stable.

[Dagless]

Eh, as a Brit I don't want to pay even more just because the computer was made in the US instead of China. Just as I don't want them to open a factory in the UK. It has no effect on me whatsoever. Most of my electronics are from China/Japan and I haven't had a gadget break on me this turn of the millennium (except for a hifi amp built in the 80's, in England no less).

[nanofrog]

For so long we've been looking at it in terms of, "Oh no, we can't give these jobs to American workers! They'll demand actual salaries instead of pittances!" that we're kinda brainwashed that way. So we reap what we sow: a lot of jobs that could be making people good money here are in China. Or Malaysia. Or wherever.

Yeah, a Mac would cost you more, but if you had that job (or a similar one with another manufacturer in the U.S.), you could afford it that much better. That's the way it was in this country during the entire post-WWII industrial boom.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, IMO.

Don't forget, we didn't start exporting jobs so we could have cheap goods. We started exporting jobs because companies wanted to keep more of the profit for themselves. It was hardly altruistic.

At least if we have those jobs in the US, we do two things: we give ourselves more rewarding jobs than handing out shopping carts at Wal-Mart, and we stop sending so much money to countries that don't like us very much. (Where've we heard that before? ;) )
Spot on. :D

Unfortunately, it all comes down to the bottom line, and if they can make a fraction of a penny, they will. A fraction x a very large number is still a considerable amount. :p So long as there isn't any form of penalty for doing this, nothing will change, and the money will continue to flow out of the US economy in greater amounts than stay or make it back. :(

[Henri Gaudier]

Eh, as a Brit I don't want to pay even more just because the computer was made in the US instead of China. Just as I don't want them to open a factory in the UK. It has no effect on me whatsoever. Most of my electronics are from China/Japan and I haven't had a gadget break on me this turn of the millennium (except for a hifi amp built in the 80's, in England no less).

I buy all my electrical equipment from the UK because I think it's the best and at a good price too. Soundcraft, Tony Larking Audio etc all make their things in the UK and go for great prices with great reliability too. Other English companies that have been bought by the Chinese like Castle Speakers, Audiolab and Quad are made in China and sold at the same prices or more.

I remember reading about microphone manufacturing in China and there the problem is that under a totalitarian system, with no quality control, simply to make the units was enough. It took SE Electronics to de-programme their staff of this mind set and create fantastic sounding, reliable mics. Before them, most microphones made in China were absolute crap. Personally, when it comes to hi-tech if I read "Designed in the UK" or "Designed in France" but "Made in China" I don't buy it. Look at the drop in quality of Behringer products. Once made in Germany, at a reasonable price and a 5 year warranty. Now made in China, dirt cheap, sound crap, 1 year warranty but it's probably not worth the courier costs to use the warranty when you need it. And you will need it. A bit of a ramble but it is possible to make good quality at a good price in the West.

[The Past]

I don't think it is as much as whether we can afford to pay the price os US made products. It is more to do with what Apple will have left behind after selling at the same price.

These decisions are about profits, not prices. Not that anything is wrong. What I saying is that prices stay the same, the only difference being that more companies will be solvent.

[leighonigar]

Am I not right in thinking that Apple outsources production to other companies? Therefore it's not their primary problem where the factories are, rather what the factory can turn out and for how much? It's not their workforce...

[peteryan7hao]

Chinese laborer = approx $3-4 hourly
American laborer = approx $12-20 hourly

This came from my former employer and most likely differs from Apple, but is relative to the tech market.

With $3 you can buy 2 Big Mac burgers in China, but what can you buy in the US?

[McGiord]

Am I not right in thinking that Apple outsources production to other companies? Therefore it's not their primary problem where the factories are, rather what the factory can turn out and for how much? It's not their workforce...

absolutely right, :apple: business is focused on their design, define how the product is going to be built and hire a OEM company to produce the products for them, outsourcing @ MAX.

the quality has suffered significantly, which also comes tied with higher production levels.

if :apple: products were manufactured in the US, they might be done by a 3rd party also and the logistics and shipping cost of all the components made in Asia will be higher than just the shipping cost of the end product.

for :apple: to swap a defective iPhone is easier than to 'repair' it, because it doesn't cost :apple: a dime, all the defective ones are charged back to the manufacturer, despite the negative impact on the customer they don;t losse money.

With the Macs the 'replacement' thing is a little more tricky.

China and India booming companies suffer the same human resources issue: many people is available, they don't plan to stay on a job for more than 1~2 years, any little thing they learn becomes valuable for a new employer to offer them a promotion to hire them with a significant increase in salary.
Many companies are used to this business model and they know that they will loose some employees and need to retrain the new ones to keep the company budget and head-count steady = same 'skilled' type of employee with a cheap salary.

[McGiord]

With $3 you can buy 2 Big Mac burgers in China, but what can you buy in the US?

a song in the iTunes Store, or an iPhone App...

[bruinsrme]

The company I work for started outsourcing a particular part for the construction of the final product. It was outsourced to one company.
We have had a number of issues causing scrap and costing the company nearly a million $$$$ in under 2 months.
It was discovered that that company has outsourced the material to 4 other companies. Its almost like everything made gets checked, checked on to the pallet and we waorry about it.
Never had the problem with the state side vendors

[wywern209]

chances are it would cost that much more, but apple would make less profits as a result.