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Raveny
Feb 2, 2004, 03:30 PM
just download them!!!!

janey
Feb 2, 2004, 03:41 PM
...i thought you were joking.
Guess not :)

Benjamin
Feb 2, 2004, 03:41 PM
yep yep. just got them.. safari seems a lot faster.

edesignuk
Feb 2, 2004, 03:41 PM
What version of Safari is it? I have v125, what's this official release?

kungfu
Feb 2, 2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by edesignuk
What version of Safari is it? I have v125, what's this official release?

Official release is v125...

MacRumors
Feb 2, 2004, 03:52 PM
In your Software Update... Apple released Safari 1.2 today:

Safari 1.2 improves compatibility with websites and web applications by providing increased support for standards, adds support for personal certificate authentication, and works with Java 1.4.2 to enable websites that rely on LiveConnect for communication between JavaScript and Java applets.

This update also provides improved application stability, full keyboard access for navigating web pages, and the ability to resume interrupted downloads.

Safari 1.2 was recently seeded (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/01/20040129124420.shtml) on Thursday and provides many requested new features.

boy
Feb 2, 2004, 03:53 PM
see... those people downloading safari 1.2 before should have just waited.

BillClinton
Feb 2, 2004, 03:54 PM
Anyway, I think I'll wait a couple of hors before installing this update.

jphall
Feb 2, 2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Macrumors
In your Software Update... Apple released Safari 1.2 today:



Safari 1.2 was recently seeded (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/01/20040129124420.shtml) on Thursday and provides many requested new features.

Man, that was fast, posted on Mac Rumors the same minute it showed up in my update!

I've been looking forward to "full keyboard access" for quite some time. This'll be cool!

I use it in many apps these days and in dialog boxes, a great feature when I don't want to use my mouse.

beefcake
Feb 2, 2004, 04:03 PM
I don't see it in software update, maybe I'm missing something?

EDIT: yes i was, downloading now

TorbX
Feb 2, 2004, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by boy
see... those people downloading safari 1.2 before should have just waited.

...What?

hvfsl
Feb 2, 2004, 04:04 PM
I dont see it in the software update or on Apple's webpage. Is this kind of joke. :confused:

drewm
Feb 2, 2004, 04:05 PM
One thing I don't like is the Download window now shows time remaining instead of kb/sec.

Mr.Hey
Feb 2, 2004, 04:06 PM
Its nice and speedy on my B&W..... recommended to all you G3 owners out there.....boyOboy first OmniWeb 5 now a Safari update, yay!.

virividox
Feb 2, 2004, 04:06 PM
yahooooooooooo cant wait downloading now.

zoozx
Feb 2, 2004, 04:06 PM
Safari 1.2 still has problems with Ebay and adding images to your auction.

crazzyeddie
Feb 2, 2004, 04:07 PM
One thing that i REALLY dont like with the tabbing is that the tab key cycles through the bookbar bar... I have it set to not tab through links, and those are just a bunch of links :mad:

Nermal
Feb 2, 2004, 04:08 PM
Needs Panther, doesn't run on Jaguar! :eek:

hvfsl
Feb 2, 2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Nermal
Needs Panther, doesn't run on Jaguar! :eek:

Thats why I cant see it then. :mad:

Back to Firebird then.

TMA
Feb 2, 2004, 04:09 PM
I've not updated Safari for a while (using v85 at the moment) I'm still using 10.2 and was a little suprised to see this requires Panther :/

Is this release the first version that requires Mac OS X 10.3 ?

ropbo
Feb 2, 2004, 04:09 PM
I think it's just for Panther. Take a look at the download page. It says:

Requirements for Safari 1.2:

Mac OS X 10.3 or later

Any Macintosh computer

Requirements for Safari 1.0:


Mac OS X 10.2 or later

Any Macintosh computer

Rodrigo Otavio Paes de Barros Otaviano

RndmAxess
Feb 2, 2004, 04:10 PM
deleted

edesignuk
Feb 2, 2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by boy
see... those people downloading safari 1.2 before should have just waited.
Um...and why is that? I was using this same version 2 days ago :confused: Why would I have been better to wait?

wymer100
Feb 2, 2004, 04:11 PM
Does anyone know why (technical reasons) this Safari update will only work with OS 10.3? I know the obvious marketing and sales reasons why Apple would not include a Jaguar update.

Oh well, I guess us with only 10.2 will be left in the dark on this one.

TMA
Feb 2, 2004, 04:12 PM
Could anyone that managed to acquire this build before it's official release confirm weather it works with OS X 10.2 or not? I know Apples download page says it requires Panther but I have my doubts about that.

gothamac
Feb 2, 2004, 04:13 PM
I can't find it. Can someone link it?

robotrenegade
Feb 2, 2004, 04:16 PM
It's not posted on apple site yet. Use software update. Downloading...

STITCHES
Feb 2, 2004, 04:16 PM
Doesn't open pop-up pages(like links on message boards) in the same window. :(

sethypoo
Feb 2, 2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by TMA
Could anyone that managed to acquire this build before it's official release confirm weather it works with OS X 10.2 or not? I know Apples download page says it requires Panther but I have my doubts about that.

If Apple's page says Panther, then believe me, it's for Panther.

jvaska
Feb 2, 2004, 04:17 PM
GOTO the "software" section...and click on Safari...

don't go straight to support/downloads...

it's there...

it does seem a little fast to me...but a quick test shows me that firebird is still clearly faster...but i don't like the way their tabs work and that's enough to keep me using safari...

v

buseman
Feb 2, 2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by drewm
One thing I don't like is the Download window now shows time remaining instead of kb/sec.

Click on the dl text with option button down

TMA
Feb 2, 2004, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by robotrenegade
It's not posted on apple site yet. Use software update. Downloading...

It's available at http://www.apple.com/safari/download

TorbX
Feb 2, 2004, 04:19 PM
I dont like that I have to right-click to get the "open in new tab"-option. I want this to be an one-click operation.

sickracer2015
Feb 2, 2004, 04:20 PM
Pith Helmet Fix For Safari 1.2:

open /Library/Application Support/SIMBL/Plugins/
Right click (control+click) PithHelmet.bundle and select show package contents
Open the Contents folder and from there open the info.plist file in either textedit or Property List Editor if you have the dev tools installed
Find where it says MaxSafariBundleVersion and change the value to 125
Save and restart safari. thats it, now it works.

gothamac
Feb 2, 2004, 04:21 PM
I open software update and I see

Software update File edit help

across the top? Nothing else. In the help section it says a box should open but I have one? And I'm using Panther.

anodized
Feb 2, 2004, 04:21 PM
Nice! Very speedy --- Can resume downloads.

Way to go, Apple! :D

buseman
Feb 2, 2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by TorbX
I dont like that I have to right-click to get the "open in new tab"-option. I want this to be an one-click operation.

click scrollwheel button :rolleyes:

gothamac
Feb 2, 2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by TMA
It's available at http://www.apple.com/safari/download

THANK YOU!

Falleron
Feb 2, 2004, 04:22 PM
Great, when you open a new window up it now appears directly ontop of the other window! Anchored to the top left.

jvaska
Feb 2, 2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Falleron
Great, when you open a new window up it now appears directly ontop of the other window! Anchored to the top left.

i'd like it if it did do that...but that's not how it's working for me...huh...? it's still staggering them...

v

applekid
Feb 2, 2004, 04:31 PM
- Downloads do not show the speed you are download at, but gives you a time estimate. Any way to change this?
- When you press tab, it's like IE. Keyboard navigation. Is there any way to turn it off? I hate it.
- New reload button. Well, it's facing a different direction.
- Scrolling seems smoother.

A bit disappointed with the new features.

TMA
Feb 2, 2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by sickracer2015
Pith Helmet Fix For Safari 1.2:

open /Library/Application Support/SIMBL/Plugins/
Right click (control+click) PithHelmet.bundle and select show package contents
Open the Contents folder and from there open the info.plist file in either textedit or Property List Editor if you have the dev tools installed
Find where it says MaxSafariBundleVersion and change the value to 125
Save and restart safari. thats it, now it works.

Thanks man, good tip!:) Should have Panther installed in a few days so I'll update Safari then and give it a shot. :)

johnnyjibbs
Feb 2, 2004, 04:32 PM
Is there any reason why this is Panther only? There are a couple of new features but it is generally more of a bug fix. The 1.0 version that you get with Jaguar was buggy - I could not use it for secure sites behind the uni firewall. This was automatically fixed when I upgraded to Jaguar (and 1.1). Why not just give Jaguar users the latest version?

BillClinton
Feb 2, 2004, 04:34 PM
After installing the Java update, safari crashed on me every time I tried to open the darn thing. I ended up rebooting, and running fsck. Everything is OK now, however I was really starting to get worried.

Poff
Feb 2, 2004, 04:35 PM
Apple does not play nice with us Jaguar users.. :(

But it´s no use for me getting Panther now, because in just a few months a new version will come, and Apple will no longer play nice with Panther users.. :/

anodized
Feb 2, 2004, 04:36 PM
Now when you're downloading, the icon on your desktop (Or wherever you're saving it) shows the progress bar. Nice.

richard5mith
Feb 2, 2004, 04:37 PM
Font sizes are all screwed up, everything is smaller. Annoying.

Tabbing to all elements in forms is great, but why can't I press a key to jump between elements in a list that start with that letter without bringing the list down first? And then it doesn't cycle through them, just steps through them once.

sethypoo
Feb 2, 2004, 04:38 PM
Definatly snappier, even with reduced processor speed!

:D Seth happy!:D

Bear
Feb 2, 2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by BillClinton
After installing the Java update, safari crashed on me every time I tried to open the darn thing. I ended up rebooting, and running fsck. Everything is OK now, however I was really starting to get worried. Did you not reboot after installation?

I suspect that Apple is getting it right when it says a reboot is needed.

MacBandit
Feb 2, 2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by STITCHES
Doesn't open pop-up pages(like links on message boards) in the same window. :(

This is a function of the way the page was written on the site you are on. There may be a way Apple can override this ability in Safari but they haven't as yet obviously.

I usually command click these links so they open in a tab in the current window. Personally I like the links to not load in the current window. If they did then I would have to click the back arrow typically to go back the site I was on in order to finish reading the site.

pgwalsh
Feb 2, 2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Poff
Apple does not play nice with us Jaguar users.. :(

But it´s no use for me getting Panther now, because in just a few months a new version will come, and Apple will no longer play nice with Panther users.. :/ As the mantra goes.. Keep Apple's coffers full if you want anything new.. including a browser or java update.
$120 for an upgrade.. :rolleyes:

MacBandit
Feb 2, 2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by applekid
................- When you press tab, it's like IE. Keyboard navigation. Is there any way to turn it off? I hate it.

Did you even try changing the settings in prefs?

There are two options one to highlight input boxes and one to highlight all links. You can change them so one will be tab and the other will be option-tab your choice.

Trowaman
Feb 2, 2004, 04:45 PM
I give u Panther updates #20 and 21 (thses are based on ALL updates since Nov. 1st but does not include iLife)

Keep 'em coming Apple!

I love this company

Lancetx
Feb 2, 2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Poff
Apple does not play nice with us Jaguar users.. :(

But it´s no use for me getting Panther now, because in just a few months a new version will come, and Apple will no longer play nice with Panther users.. :/

If it makes you feel any better, M$ doesn't play any nicer with Windows 98 or ME users either. That's just the nature of the beast these days...

hvfsl
Feb 2, 2004, 04:46 PM
I just installed Safari 1.2 on my Mac OS X 10.2 computer it now it does not work. So it is not just Apple wants people to buy Mac OS X 10.3.

(I got it to install by removing some of the files from the package, that check what system you use.)

It does not matter too much since it is not my main computer, well I am off to reinstall Mac OS now.

pgwalsh
Feb 2, 2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Lancetx
If it makes you feel any better, M$ doesn't play any nicer with Windows 98 or ME users either. That's just the nature of the beast these days... How old is windows 98 and ME compared to Jaguar? c'mon...

TMA
Feb 2, 2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by MacBandit
Did you even try changing the settings in prefs?

There are two options one to highlight input boxes and one to highlight all links. You can change them so one will be tab and the other will be option-tab your choice.

I think he might have meant so that you can use Tab in it's normal way. i.e to intent text. That's what i'd like to be able to do anyway. Perhaps have a different key to move between input boxes/links.

geerlingguy
Feb 2, 2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by anodized
Now when you're downloading, the icon on your desktop (Or wherever you're saving it) shows the progress bar. Nice.

Not to dis Safari or anything, but... Explorer has done this since 5.0.

Anyway, Safari is MUCH faster on more complex pages, Java is MUCH better (example: try this page (http://www.phas.ucalgary.ca/physlets/fieldlines.htm) before and after installing). Java is best update for me... My phys teacher uses applets all the time, and, IF they loaded in Safari 1.1/Java 1.4.1, they took FOREVER to load... now, a few seconds and VOILA! there it is, all working fine! Yipee!

Score for Apple!:)

Lancetx
Feb 2, 2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by pgwalsh
How old is windows 98 and ME compared to Jaguar? c'mon...

I know. Thankfully Apple doesn't wait 2-3 years or more in between OS upgrades. XP will probably be 5 years old before it gets upgraded. That's one reason why I prefer OS X to Windows (among many others). If that's the price of innovation, then I'm willing to pay for it.

johnnyjibbs
Feb 2, 2004, 04:49 PM
I like the way that you can actually scroll through pages snappily while they are still loading, without that lag you used to get. The resumable downloads are going to be very useful when I get home at Easter as well (dial-up!).

TMA
Feb 2, 2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by hvfsl
I just installed Safari 1.2 on my Mac OS X 10.2 computer it now it does not work. So it is not just Apple wants people to buy Mac OS X 10.3.

(I got it to install by removing some of the files from the package, that check what system you use.)

It does not matter too much since it is not my main computer, well I am off to reinstall Mac OS now.

Thanks for the heads up on that one! My download just this second finished and I was about to try to force install install it somehow. Did it completely ruin your Jaguar install?

demoptera
Feb 2, 2004, 04:52 PM
I just dl and installed the safari update, and it changed my menu text to Chinese! Does anyone know how to change it back? I'm having a hard time figuring it out because everything is in Chinese now. This sucks :-(

nagromme
Feb 2, 2004, 04:53 PM
No more need for "always show tab bar"! Turn that off and the tab bar appears ONLY as needed... and your window size stays constant just like it should.

Thanks, Apple! More screen real estate for me!

And maybe it's just me, but scrolling (which was already very smooth) seems even smoother now.

TMA
Feb 2, 2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by nagromme
No more need for "always show tab bar"! Turn that off and the tab bar appears ONLY as needed... and your window size stays constant just like it should.

Thanks, Apple! More screen real estate for me!

Does that in version 1 ;) I like to keep widgets and buttens down to a minimum also.

Edit : Sorry i'm talking carp, didn't read the bit about window size staying constant. Nice!

hvfsl
Feb 2, 2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by TMA
Thanks for the heads up on that one! My download just this second finished and I was about to try to force install install it somehow. Did it completely ruin your Jaguar install?

The computer starts up OK, but the finder does not load, so you cant do anything.

pgwalsh
Feb 2, 2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Lancetx
I know. Thankfully Apple doesn't wait 2-3 years or more in between OS upgrades. XP will probably be 5 years old before it gets upgraded. That's one reason why I prefer OS X to Windows (among many others). If that's the price of innovation, then I'm willing to pay for it. I'm not and wont.. I'd like Apple to either implement a yearly fee for upgrades that's is reasonable or support older OS's even if it is one version older!

But you can continue to kiss their arse.

sabbath999
Feb 2, 2004, 05:03 PM
Just installed Safari update, now it won't open. One bounce and nothing. I am typing this in IE... UGH! I had forgotten how ugly IE is.

10.3.2
iMac flat panel with 512 megs ram

MacBandit
Feb 2, 2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by TMA
I think he might have meant so that you can use Tab in it's normal way. i.e to intent text. That's what i'd like to be able to do anyway. Perhaps have a different key to move between input boxes/links.

Okay I see what you mean but I've never been able to tab/indent in comment box in Safari. It has always cycled through the available input areas.

iMeowbot
Feb 2, 2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
Is there any reason why this is Panther only?

Late-model Safari uses Core Graphics functions that weren't available before Panther. Doing those features conditionally is basically the same idea as maintaining multiple branches; that's almost an invitation for additional bugs to sneak in, so it's probably for the best that they're doing things the way they are.

celaurie
Feb 2, 2004, 05:08 PM
Smooth as a baby's bum...

Internet Banking here we come! :)

dloomer
Feb 2, 2004, 05:08 PM
Not to dis Safari or anything, but... Explorer has done this since 5.0.

Do you mean Explorer for Mac or Windows?

I've never used the Mac version much, but I certainly have never noticed that in IE for Windows. In IE Win, I never even see an icon on the desktop, period, until the download is complete.

Deestar
Feb 2, 2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by richard5mith
Font sizes are all screwed up, everything is smaller. Annoying.

Tabbing to all elements in forms is great, but why can't I press a key to jump between elements in a list that start with that letter without bringing the list down first? And then it doesn't cycle through them, just steps through them once.

Pretty Easy to fix, you need to go into the "Advance" tab in the preferences and select within the "universal access" Pref "Never use font sizes smaller than..." I've used 10pts and looks about the same now.

Hope that helps:D

Version 1.2 is pretty darn fast :p

johnnyjibbs
Feb 2, 2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by iMeowbot
Late-model Safari uses Core Graphics functions that weren't available before Panther. Doing those features conditionally is basically the same idea as maintaining multiple branches; that's almost an invitation for additional bugs to sneak in, so it's probably for the best that they're doing things the way they are.
Obviously I'm not complaining because I have Panther! But it would be nice to at least support Jaguar users a bit with bug fixes.

Of more note, I like the way that it uses more threads so that things work faster! Scrolling is much better and performance is much improved. Open mail links in new tab is a great option for MacRumors forum replies!

crees!
Feb 2, 2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Poff
Apple does not play nice with us Jaguar users.. :(

But it´s no use for me getting Panther now, because in just a few months a new version will come, and Apple will no longer play nice with Panther users.. :/

I guess you can just wait, and wait, and wait, and wait... and just wait a little more till you decide Panther (or whatever else is next) is for you.

with a smile ;)
crees!

Fat Tony
Feb 2, 2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by celaurie
Smooth as a baby's bum...

Internet Banking here we come! :)

I was hoping for the same with MyBankofAmerica. Still doesn't work, though I'm sure it's a result of my friendly bank half supporting Safari still. :rolleyes:

crees!
Feb 2, 2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by pgwalsh
I'm not and wont.. I'd like Apple to either implement a yearly fee for upgrades that's is reasonable or support older OS's even if it is one version older!

But you can continue to kiss their arse.

I can tell you they're not going to kiss yours either.

IndyGopher
Feb 2, 2004, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by pgwalsh
I'm not and wont.. I'd like Apple to either implement a yearly fee for upgrades that's is reasonable or support older OS's even if it is one version older!

But you can continue to kiss their arse.
You're exactly right! And it should be about $10 a month! Oh wait.. that's $120 year.. which is when they seem to update the OS..

Hoky
Feb 2, 2004, 05:21 PM
Oh well, I guess us with only 10.2 will be left in the dark on this one.

Do yourself a huge favour and upgrade to Panther. It is worth it, man.

It is not simply another "flavour" of OSX - it is the next step in its evolution.

Exposé is the most incredible thing. I use it all the time.

- Hoky

Madgnome
Feb 2, 2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by sickracer2015
Pith Helmet Fix For Safari 1.2:

open /Library/Application Support/SIMBL/Plugins/
Right click (control+click) PithHelmet.bundle and select show package contents
Open the Contents folder and from there open the info.plist file in either textedit or Property List Editor if you have the dev tools installed
Find where it says MaxSafariBundleVersion and change the value to 125
Save and restart safari. thats it, now it works.

This didn't work for me. I still get the same error and the preferences panel shows PithHelmet as disabled. I re-opened the info.plist and the MaxSafariBundleVersion is still changed to 125.

Anyone have any ideas?

--Jeff

mactastic
Feb 2, 2004, 05:22 PM
I've been hoping the internet banking thing gets fixed for the last several Safari updates, so I'm not holding my breath this time. Sucks, 'cuz the only reason I still keep IE around is for my bank. I guess I'll find out tonight when I go home and update....

geerlingguy
Feb 2, 2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by dloomer
Do you mean Explorer for Mac or Windows?

I've never used the Mac version much, but I certainly have never noticed that in IE for Windows. In IE Win, I never even see an icon on the desktop, period, until the download is complete.

Explorer for Mac... I haven't used it since Safari came out (the day it was here, I d/l'ed it!), so I don't know if this feature is still existant, but it was back then. :cool:

johnnyjibbs
Feb 2, 2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Hoky
I upgraded from Jaguar in September, and I can't believe it took me that long in retrospect.
But Panther came out at the end of October!

EDIT: oh you must have been a developer with access to the pre-release builds?

gsabin
Feb 2, 2004, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Lancetx
If it makes you feel any better, M$ doesn't play any nicer with Windows 98 or ME users either. That's just the nature of the beast these days...

What? IE6.0SP1 runs on ME, 98 and NT4.0 ALL of the OS's are MUCH older than 10.2.x

I am not comparing the browers (obvisouly, IE is much worse than Safari :)) but, the argument that MS doesnt play any 'nicer' (in this sense) just doesnt hold water. It seems fairly ridiculuous that APPLES software does not run on an OS as new as 10.2 (which was "top of the line" < 4 months ago). Why would they expect other companies to write software for the Mac when they won't?

The web browser is NOT part of the OS (no matter how much MS says it is). I completly understand no more features added to 10.2.x but developing software as standard as a browser for 10.2.x is a must. I am a recent switcher, and expected MUCH more from Apple... was I wrong to expect Apple to value thier customers?

Sorry if this comes across harsh, I just am amazed at the lack of support for an OS as recent as 10.2.x

Dave_B
Feb 2, 2004, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by wymer100
Does anyone know why (technical reasons) this Safari update will only work with OS 10.3? I know the obvious marketing and sales reasons why Apple would not include a Jaguar update.

Oh well, I guess us with only 10.2 will be left in the dark on this one.

If memory serves, the khtml rendering engine was built into 10.3 so Safari 1.1+ is no longer a stand-alone browser app that could be tweaked to run on OSX pre-10.3. It requires 10.3 for the rendering engine (poss called "webpack"?)

TMA
Feb 2, 2004, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Dave_B
If memory serves, the khtml rendering engine was built into 10.3 so Safari 1.1+ is no longer a stand-alone browser app that could be tweaked to run on OSX pre-10.3. It requires 10.3 for the rendering engine (poss called "webpack"?)

Could Apple not release a KHTML Kit for Mac OS 10.2? Something we could just download and install seperately.

I agree with others on this thread: 10.2 seems to have become unsupported far too quickly. I think some companies have a small obligation to support still recent Software where possible. It seems to me Apple is getting increasingly sneaky in 'encouraging' people to update.

jettredmont
Feb 2, 2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by hvfsl
I just installed Safari 1.2 on my Mac OS X 10.2 computer it now it does not work. So it is not just Apple wants people to buy Mac OS X 10.3.


Okay, here's the scoop. When you compile anything using Apple's developer tools, you specify the minimum OS supported (in two places: the SDK you use to compile and the library versions you link to). It is therefore HIGHLY unlikely that Apple will release software that works just fine on Jaguar but is marked as Panther-only; if it's Panther-only then it will have been built against the 10.3 SDK and linked to the 10.3 libraries.

What problems can happen running a 10.3 app on 10.2? They can be subtle (stability issues, some features not working) or major (app crashes on load; dylib errors to the console).

One particularly important hitch here is that the "libCrypto" library, used by any app which supports SSL, like, you know, a web browser, has changed between 10.2 and 10.3 and so if you're linking to the 10.3 libraries then you'll get a dylib error when your app is loaded in 10.2.

jettredmont
Feb 2, 2004, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by TorbX
I dont like that I have to right-click to get the "open in new tab"-option. I want this to be an one-click operation.

The "middle button" (which is your scroll wheel if you have a scroll-wheel mouse) works, as does Command+click.

[Edit: Command-click for in new tab, not option-click ... you can tell I use the scroll wheel instead, huh? :) ]

hulugu
Feb 2, 2004, 05:47 PM
...just wait. Remember the earlier Security Update when everyone freaked out because they assumed Apple wasn't going to release a fix for Jaguar. And then they did.
Apple does cater to its flavor-of-the-year OS first, but it has in many instances updated the older versions. I'm not guaranteeing they will here, but since it involves updating webpack it may take more time for Jaguar.

For those who are still using Jaguar, Panther's better and worth the 120. Furthermore, I'd rather have the choice to update than have a constant monthly bill for my OS. I don't mind paying 120 every 18 months or so if the OS includes new applications, utilities, and stability in a neat package.
For my 120, I received File Vault, Expose, iChat AV, labels, etc. Plus a new finder, etc. And Panther made my old 233 iMac work faster than it had under Jaguar. I actually use it now.

coumerelli
Feb 2, 2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont
The "middle button" (which is your scroll wheel if you have a scroll-wheel mouse) works, as does Option+click.

Also, if you control-click a link, it'll open in a new tab behind current...

maxtrax
Feb 2, 2004, 05:47 PM
Why is it that you still can't tab to a drop down menu? Does anyone care about tabbing to a link? I just want to tab thru a form without having to use the mouse for the dropdown menus. I really thought that would be addressed in this build.

On another note the caching problems seem to have been fixed, and for those of you who didn't come across it often, Safari could not refresh a page inside a frame and what pain that was for me, with our backend systems all in multiple framed pages.

So far it is faster and many bugs are fixed. I did think I read that tabbing thru a form was supposed to be working like it does in IE.

Oh well... I am still very happy happy with this update.

celaurie
Feb 2, 2004, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Fat Tony
I was hoping for the same with MyBankofAmerica. Still doesn't work, though I'm sure it's a result of my friendly bank half supporting Safari still. :rolleyes:

Most of my problems with Halifax - Bank of Scotland (H-BOS) (http://www.bankofscotland.com/) were to do with Java submissions and Safari's inability to cope with style sheets.

All that's fixed now and I can happily check how much money I don't have... Um, can I have my old Safari back!?

Nermal
Feb 2, 2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by coumerelli
Also, if you control-click a link, it'll open in a new tab behind current...

Command-click to open in a new tab. Control-click displays the context menu. And Option-click to download the link.

john123
Feb 2, 2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Lancetx
If it makes you feel any better, M$ doesn't play any nicer with Windows 98 or ME users either. That's just the nature of the beast these days...

But MS does play nice with Windows 2000 (my personal favorite OS)...

Stella
Feb 2, 2004, 05:56 PM
Seems an OK update.

However -
* I doubt whether this version of Safari will ever be released for Jaquar...

* Still no Undo function....

TorbX
Feb 2, 2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont
The "middle button" (which is your scroll wheel if you have a scroll-wheel mouse) works, as does Option+click.

I use the middle button for exposé.

Apple's solution to my problem: In prefs, let me specify wether "open in new browser" or "open in new tab" is to be at the top.

Stella
Feb 2, 2004, 05:58 PM
.... good update...

Safari works now with CIBC on line banking without presenting MIME (I think) errors.

WHOO HOOO!

ryanw
Feb 2, 2004, 05:59 PM
I have my 700MHz G3 OSX 10.3 iBook side by side with my Pentium 4 1.8GHz IBM T30 Thinkpad. The iBook with Safari is beating out IE 6.x (latest) on my Pentium4 PC Laptop.

Pretty amazing.. I can't wait to try it out on my Dual 1GHz box.

Selecter
Feb 2, 2004, 06:05 PM
I cant believe the number of people that seem to have regular problems everytime a new update appears.

I have NEVER had ONE SINGLE issue on my Dual 1.8 - not one. Everything has always simply worked and worked fast.

the new Java and the new Safari appear to be continuing this tradition.

Whats with you poeple that have problems, update after update? I could name 2 names I've noticed have have at least one issue with every single update Apple has released since I've owned this machine, but that would lead to kaos. I've noticed, though. Some of you ( and you know who you are ) need to find a better way to get attention.

maxtrax
Feb 2, 2004, 06:06 PM
Option click on the time remaining when downloading and it will show you the k per second like it used to.

fearless
Feb 2, 2004, 06:09 PM
I still think it's weird that importing or exporting Bookmarks still has to happen via a "Debug" menu. These are common enough needs, without having to pretend to be a developer – what's wrong with including this in the File menu, like every other app in town?

iomar
Feb 2, 2004, 06:09 PM
Well, I don't see any difference. The sites that used to not work they are still not working.

Dave_B
Feb 2, 2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by TMA
Could Apple not release a KHTML Kit for Mac OS 10.2? Something we could just download and install seperately.

I agree with others on this thread: 10.2 seems to have become unsupported far too quickly. I think some companies have a small obligation to support still recent Software where possible. It seems to me Apple is getting increasingly sneaky in 'encouraging' people to update.

I was just reading through the release notes of Omniweb 5.0b1 and they may be of interest to you

http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omniweb/5/releasenotes/

"OmniWeb 5.0 includes our customized versions of WebCore v85 and JavaScriptCore v85. We will be merging with the latest version of these frameworks from Apple in a future version of OmniWeb to be released after 5.0 final. "

So the khtml engine will be available for 10.2 users, just not from Apple.

On a side note Camino development is showing new signs of life and Firebird is quite nice (lets you select add search engines to the "google box" so you could add google.co.uk) so Mac browsers are looking good !

rfenik
Feb 2, 2004, 06:18 PM
ERRRR....

I use Safari for everything except for one little detail, which I have to use Internet Explorer to do. I don't know why it does this but it's SO annoying.

You download a Dreamweaver template off of a website and it changes the extension to .html instead of leaving it as .dwt. I hate that SO much.

Other than that, works great.

I wonder why the refresh button is facing the right now?

I think the icon in the refresh button should be rotated 45 degrees counter-clockwise from where it is now. That way the focal point on the arrow looks like it starts in the center on the top, goes around, and ends up in the same spot. That would represent refreshing a little better.

Now it sort of implies that it will refresh and go forward somehow.

-ko

xtbfx
Feb 2, 2004, 06:18 PM
Wow, this restart actually remembered that I had my hard drive set to List view and my Applications set to List view!!!!

They usually default back to the big icons (used to drive me insane!)

WM.
Feb 2, 2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Stella
* Still no Undo function....
Ooh, yeah, I always forget to complain about that. :) It really would be nice on forums, when you're editing and you accidentally select that extra line and--dammit--lost that brilliant insight. I'm not sure whether/to what extent other browsers support this, although I do recall possibly using it in OmniWeb (probably 4.2, before I switched to Safari the day it came out). I'll be giving their new version 5 a pretty close look...

FWIW (not much)
WM

rfenik
Feb 2, 2004, 06:23 PM
ooo!

Downloading lots of files has been fixed! Now I can download more than 4 files at once!

I don't like how it shows time remaining instead of your download speed tho.

Life keeps getting better and better.

-ko

joemama
Feb 2, 2004, 06:25 PM
What horse-crap!

For the LOVE OF GOD you can't tab over pulldown menus!!!!!!! WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR APPLE TO FIX!!!!!

ARRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH.

hvfsl
Feb 2, 2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont
Okay, here's the scoop. When you compile anything using Apple's developer tools, you specify the minimum OS supported (in two places: the SDK you use to compile and the library versions you link to). It is therefore HIGHLY unlikely that Apple will release software that works just fine on Jaguar but is marked as Panther-only; if it's Panther-only then it will have been built against the 10.3 SDK and linked to the 10.3 libraries.

What problems can happen running a 10.3 app on 10.2? They can be subtle (stability issues, some features not working) or major (app crashes on load; dylib errors to the console).

One particularly important hitch here is that the "libCrypto" library, used by any app which supports SSL, like, you know, a web browser, has changed between 10.2 and 10.3 and so if you're linking to the 10.3 libraries then you'll get a dylib error when your app is loaded in 10.2.

Itunes says it requires a computer with a USB port, but it works fine on my old PowerBook G3 (without USB ports). So I thought Safari might be like this also.

stingerman
Feb 2, 2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by wymer100
Does anyone know why (technical reasons) this Safari update will only work with OS 10.3? I know the obvious marketing and sales reasons why Apple would not include a Jaguar update.

Oh well, I guess us with only 10.2 will be left in the dark on this one.

Between version 10.2 and 10.3 GCC went from 3.1 to 3.3. The ABI was updated from 3.1 to 3.3, thus applications need to be targeted for the right ABI. Apple has chosen to simplify their development efforts in order to produce updates faster and with the latest 10.3 features without having to also create a 10.2 binary and test it there, limiting functionality to just what was common between .2 and .3.

So buying Panther is really worth the expense because it means that you can enjoy all the free upgrades that come out during the rest of the year. Apple can innovate a lot faster this way and we all get our panther monies worth that way. Ask yourself when was the last time IE was updated?

crees!
Feb 2, 2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by joemama
What horse-crap!

For the LOVE OF GOD you can't tab over pulldown menus!!!!!!! WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR APPLE TO FIX!!!!!

ARRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH.

I hate the mouse too.. but sometimes you have to give in.

rockman2023
Feb 2, 2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Selecter
I cant believe the number of people that seem to have regular problems everytime a new update appears.

I have NEVER had ONE SINGLE issue on my Dual 1.8 - not one. Everything has always simply worked and worked fast.

the new Java and the new Safari appear to be continuing this tradition.

Whats with you poeple that have problems, update after update? I could name 2 names I've noticed have have at least one issue with every single update Apple has released since I've owned this machine, but that would lead to kaos. I've noticed, though. Some of you ( and you know who you are ) need to find a better way to get attention.

WOW, someone needs to get of their high pedestal. Dude, not everyone has a "perfect" system like you claim. When Safari was first announced and released for alpha/beta testing among the public, I downloaded it and it damn near rendered my machine useless. I spent 2 days trying to find a solution to the problem when all I had to do was recreate the /tmp/ -> /private/tmp/ link that was deleted. Other than that, during the 2 years I've owned this 733 Quicksilver, I havent had any major problems. Millions of Mac users install different kinds of software that install files in all sorts of places; you cant expect everyone to have a clean system. You should be the last one to talk. Dont be suprised if tomorrow your system goes haywire, and you have to "get attention".

Photorun
Feb 2, 2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by TorbX
I use the middle button for exposé.

Apple's solution to my problem: In prefs, let me specify wether "open in new browser" or "open in new tab" is to be at the top.

Go into Preferences and you can change what keys do what in terms of preferences and new windows.

ElCaptain if you're out there, sorry man, I was wrong about hoping it'd work on 10.2. Good luck and hope you can upgrade soon!

syco
Feb 2, 2004, 06:33 PM
Let's stop the bickering for a second and get to the best feature that Safari has: marquee support! W00t!

rfenik
Feb 2, 2004, 06:40 PM
Is it me or do the pages look a little better during the genie minimize effect? I remember before it kind of smashed all the text together and rammed it down into the dock, but now it looks a bit smoother.

-ko

stingerman
Feb 2, 2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by geerlingguy
Not to dis Safari or anything, but... Explorer has done this since 5.0.

Anyway, Safari is MUCH faster on more complex pages, Java is MUCH better (example: try this page (http://www.phas.ucalgary.ca/physlets/fieldlines.htm) before and after installing). Java is best update for me... My phys teacher uses applets all the time, and, IF they loaded in Safari 1.1/Java 1.4.1, they took FOREVER to load... now, a few seconds and VOILA! there it is, all working fine! Yipee!

Score for Apple!:)

http://www.phas.ucalgary.ca/physlets/systems.htm <--- Is this an example of the Javascript-Java App/let integration? See the "Show Field vectors" button in source.

Mason
Feb 2, 2004, 06:53 PM
Still can't use safari for MS exchange servers. I'd like to use safari to access my school's webmail, but I'm stuck with IE instead. However, ign.com seems to load properly now.

pwrst2
Feb 2, 2004, 06:54 PM
A couple of earlier posters are only partially incorrect about the tabbing to drop-down menus feature. While you can tab to a drop down menu, and you can then use the arrow keys to navigate it, you *cannot* type a letter on the keyboard to select the first menu item that begins with that letter. What's the point without this ability? This is such an easy feature to implement; most other browsers on any platform have had it for years, including IE, Mozilla, etc. It has been such a pain since I started to use Safari to have to use the mouse every time I select my state.....come on Apple, what were you thinking? It's the "little" things that make Macs great.

stingerman
Feb 2, 2004, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by TMA
Could Apple not release a KHTML Kit for Mac OS 10.2? Something we could just download and install seperately.

I agree with others on this thread: 10.2 seems to have become unsupported far too quickly. I think some companies have a small obligation to support still recent Software where possible. It seems to me Apple is getting increasingly sneaky in 'encouraging' people to update.

Apple does support it for security issues and serious bugs but if you want to get new features of the individual bundled Apps, what Apple is saying to you is that we will charge you a fee. This is completely reasonable considering how many updates Apple does to their Apps during the 14 month life. The alternative is that Apple charge twice as much for each OS release and support App updates for two years. No one seems to comment on the cost of XP Pro (MSFT's competing product): it's not 129 but 199 for the Upgrade and 299 for a new license. I prefer Apple's approach of a straight price and no complexity, but more frequent OS updates.

Alternatively you can force yourself to go to a 2 revision cycle which would mean 28 months between updates, the the next one in the January/February 2005 period.

phasornc
Feb 2, 2004, 06:59 PM
Apple needs to grow up. Even M$ allows users of older OSes to use the latest IE.

And don't tell me to get Panther, when you have 35 machines to upgrade in an office environment you can't just update at the drop of a hat. Namely there are still no Jaguar drivers for our high speed industrial printers.

jshep
Feb 2, 2004, 07:09 PM
Still don't have banking but at least Fandango.Com is now working!!!!:D

jettredmont
Feb 2, 2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by phasornc
Apple needs to grow up. Even M$ allows users of older OSes to use the latest IE.


Well, actually, IE 7 will only work with Longhorn. While IE 6 and below have been for all OS's (although when IE 6.0 was released there was talk about it being XP-only, then MS reversed and released it for all OS's), that's not the case for future revisions.

Besides which, when was the last update to IE anyways? When was the last time Microsoft put out three substantial revisions of IE in less than a year?

saint.duo
Feb 2, 2004, 07:10 PM
Apple does have a subscription up to date program for businesses and schools.

Originally posted by phasornc
Apple needs to grow up. Even M$ allows users of older OSes to use the latest IE.

And don't tell me to get Panther, when you have 35 machines to upgrade in an office environment you can't just update at the drop of a hat. Namely there are still no Jaguar drivers for our high speed industrial printers.

stingerman
Feb 2, 2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Selecter
I cant believe the number of people that seem to have regular problems everytime a new update appears.

I have NEVER had ONE SINGLE issue on my Dual 1.8 - not one. Everything has always simply worked and worked fast.

the new Java and the new Safari appear to be continuing this tradition.

Whats with you poeple that have problems, update after update? I could name 2 names I've noticed have have at least one issue with every single update Apple has released since I've owned this machine, but that would lead to kaos. I've noticed, though. Some of you ( and you know who you are ) need to find a better way to get attention.

There the same people who install the same extenders and fail to uninstall them before applying an update every-time.

it's one of the reasons why I got rid of konfabulator, with it on OS X would go into a endless wheel once every couple of days. Once I stopped using it, OS X just stays up all the time.

schreiman
Feb 2, 2004, 07:12 PM
Tabbing into drop down menus works wonderfully. Please try it before posting how stupid Apple is -
Goto www.amazon.com
[tab] - brings you to their "sections" drop down
[space] - drops the menu down
try [e], [v]
WATCH it go first to "electronics", then "everything"
Very slick, deals with unordered lists appropriately.
I'm happy. Thanks Apple (finally).

multifinder
Feb 2, 2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Fat Tony
I was hoping for the same with MyBankofAmerica. Still doesn't work, though I'm sure it's a result of my friendly bank half supporting Safari still. :rolleyes:

It figures they wouldn't bother--Safari has less than 1 percent of the browser market. I hear it all the time at work--"no one uses Macs so that's why we don't test on them". You could write them a letter/email if you haven't already, but Macs are such a niche product it's hard to get most companies to care. Thank God for Firebird, it works with every website I need, unlike Safari--and when I want a new version I don't need to shell out $129 for an OS upgrade that for what I do on the Mac is worth maybe $1.29 to me. I love my Mac, but I hate Apple for trying to milk its fanatics for every dollar they're worth--they may make money in the short run, but IMHO in the long term they'll just become even more irrelevant.

It's true Microsoft is doing the same thing post-IE 6...but they're not exactly what I'd call the gold standard for customer service...

beg_ne
Feb 2, 2004, 07:18 PM
Overall I really like the newest version of Safari.

+Java Applets load faster
+Scolling is smother
+Resumable downloads
+Cool new icon for downloads with load bar!
+More specific time remaining on downloads

-No Kbps/sec indicator on downloads anymore
Id like the downloads readout to be something like (450K of 23.4MB @ 3.2KB - 3:12 remaining)

-It seems timed out downloads cannot be resumed. :( Only if you press the stop button on the download can you resume. Kind of a bummer since i'm stuck on dial up and 99% of the time if a download were to fail it would be because of a time out(eg. modem was disconnected). Ah well, atleast if its a media file it can be played from what was downloaded so it's not a total loss, but redownload of the entire thing is still required.

Lucky736
Feb 2, 2004, 07:19 PM
Safari still sucks at Java anything. This is disappointing. I buy a new Powerbook, upgrading from my Cube, and many macs before that. 1 gig of RAM, and I can't even get a damn browser to load Java right? That's sad. MS IE for OS9 was the best mac browser, and if it wasn't for the fact that I don't care too much for OS9 I would just load it, use it, and call it a day. It's sad when I have to use MS IE, Safari, and Netscape at times just to get certain pages to load right....... I may as well use that old performa 6400-250 in the closet to surf the web, least I get a decent browser that way..........

Anyone have experience with OMNIWEB 5 yet? Good or bad?


UGH!!!!! THIS SUCKS!

stingerman
Feb 2, 2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by jshep
Still don't have banking but at least Fandango.Com is now working!!!!:D

Fandango is 10X faster now. As is Flash! This seems more like a 2.0 release.

Armsreach
Feb 2, 2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by maxtrax
Why is it that you still can't tab to a drop down menu? Does anyone care about tabbing to a link? I just want to tab thru a form without having to use the mouse for the dropdown menus. I really thought that would be addressed in this build.

<snip>

To take both sides of the issue (haven't downloaded it yet. Learned that lesson when I had final projects to finish, upgraded to 10.3.2 and suitcase wouldn't open.)....

Yes, it would be wonderful to be able to tab to dropdown menus and then to be able to type in the letters to get to various selections, like when choosing a state in a form, however, to completely write off the positive aspects of tabbing order of links is very short sighted. First off, it's an accessibility must to supply tabbing to links for those people who can't control mice all that well. Secondly, an experienced website developer can manipulate the order that the links get tabbed to using CSS so that the important links are always the first in the order, saving lots of time.

Anyone know if you can tab to links that are in mouseover menus but hidden via CSS? I doubt it, but would be a nice nifty feature.

beg_ne
Feb 2, 2004, 07:21 PM
Oh and BTW you can (pretty much) tab to and control combo boxes via keyboard. You have to hit the down arrow once you're tabbed to one to drop the list then you can type a key to navigate down to that point.

it seems a bit buggy/incomplete as of yet however. Sometimes it simply will not jump down to a point even though you should be able to. Also you cant cycle though entries that start with the same letter. So if there are 6 entries that start with E you have to live with whichever one it pics.

Chef Ramen
Feb 2, 2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by hulugu
Panther made my old 233 iMac work faster than it had under Jaguar. I actually use it now.


too bad my equally-"fast" beige G3 is unsupported by panther because it lacks USB on the mobo. anybody know if it would work with a third-party USB PCI card? i tend to doubt it, and dont want to risk screwing this piece of **** up AGAIN, like it seems to do every few weeks, but if it would finally run well i'd be happy.

WM.
Feb 2, 2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by pwrst2
While you can tab to a drop down menu, and you can then use the arrow keys to navigate it, you *cannot* type a letter on the keyboard to select the first menu item that begins with that letter.
Assuming you're using Panther, this really should work. Arrow-key and first-letter navigation of pop-up menus was added with Panther (we had a big discussion about this in the 10.3.3/Safari 1.2 seeding thread). Since, according to posts after yours, you can get into pop-up menus without the keyboard in 1.2, you should then be able to start typing and have the selection jump down the menu...I'm downloading Safari right now and I'll give it a shot when I'm done.

(looks like posts after I started typing this have made it a bit redundant...sorry...)

WM

stingerman
Feb 2, 2004, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by crees!
I hate the mouse too.. but sometimes you have to give in.

What are you guys talking about, I opt-Tab through the various Bookmark Bar menus and hit the Space Bar to bring them down just fine.

Control(^)-F2 brings down the Apple menu and Tab will allow you to Tab through each menu as well.

^-F3 Takes you to the Dock and you can Tab through each Dock item.

<Space> allows you to click. <Up> and <Down> allows you to select Menu items.

stingerman
Feb 2, 2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by multifinder
It figures they wouldn't bother--Safari has less than 1 percent of the browser market. I hear it all the time at work--"no one uses Macs so that's why we don't test on them". You could write them a letter/email if you haven't already, but Macs are such a niche product it's hard to get most companies to care. Thank God for Firebird, it works with every website I need, unlike Safari--and when I want a new version I don't need to shell out $129 for an OS upgrade that for what I do on the Mac is worth maybe $1.29 to me. I love my Mac, but I hate Apple for trying to milk its fanatics for every dollar they're worth--they may make money in the short run, but IMHO in the long term they'll just become even more irrelevant.

It's true Microsoft is doing the same thing post-IE 6...but they're not exactly what I'd call the gold standard for customer service...

It's better said that Bank of America has 1% of mac users. Ignoring a market of 25 Million+ loyal and money spending prime consumers is not too business savvy. Over 30% of Adobe's revenue is from the Mac (boy that 3% market share is pretty powerful) and Macromedia derives close to 50% of their revenue from Mac users. Adobe used to be 50% as well but they lost the Video editing war to Apple's FCP and FC Express. Not to mention Apple's built in PDF support.

joemama
Feb 2, 2004, 07:39 PM
Tabbing does NOT work!

My access level may say Newbie but a newbie I am not. Of COURSE I tested it first - on the defacto standard - Orbitz and Expedia. - BOTH don't work.

I tried that Amazon link and same thing - does NOT tab to pulldown menus - just goes to input boxes.

...next you;ll be telling us it's because I am on a G4.

stingerman
Feb 2, 2004, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by stingerman
What are you guys talking about, I opt-Tab through the various Bookmark Bar menus and hit the Space Bar to bring them down just fine.

Control(^)-F2 brings down the Apple menu and Tab will allow you to Tab through each menu as well.

^-F3 Takes you to the Dock and you can Tab through each Dock item.

<Space> allows you to click. <Up> and <Down> allows you to select Menu items.

Another thing you might prefer to be on is Preferences->Keyboard->Keyboard Shortcurts->Turn on full keyboard access

In addition to creating your own keyboard shortcuts on that pane. Make sure you restart Safari to activate the new Keyboard shortcuts you create.

elgruga
Feb 2, 2004, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Lucky736
Safari still sucks at Java anything. I may as well use that old performa 6400-250 in the closet to surf the web, least I get a decent browser that way..........



This kind of post helps no-one. Its inaccurate (Safari does some Java things fine).
Its negative and comes across as a TROLL.

If you are looking for perfection, look inside first.

mdriftmeyer
Feb 2, 2004, 07:45 PM
In case you haven't read this note in developer.apple.com

http://developer.apple.com/java/index.html

Excerpt...


Please note that Java 1.4.2 will overwrite the Java 1.4.1 installation on Panther systems and is not removable. A developer package with updated headers, documentation, and tools is also available. [Feb 02 2003]

Regarding Safari 1.2. If you haven't noticed Safari 1.2 utilizes WebCore that is Objective-C++ with ObjC interfaces.

Apple has said since 1997 that it plans to wean people off of Carbon legacy and move to a pure Cocoa OO Operating System.

Expect the applications to eventually be 100% Cocoa from Apple and the operating system to drop Carbon within a 18 months or so.

Besides performance gains of having Foundation and AppKit no longer having to account for Carbon events it makes it much more streamlined to improve the OS and reduces SQA cycles on making sure any updates don't break legacy issues.

When Microsoft eventually releases Longhorn, expect the legacy folks to either upgrade or be forced to choose a new platform.

As always no one forces you to upgrade to utilize all the "Free Apps" but even in the Linux world one must update core frameworks, etc., in order to use new applications. It's a technological expectation and reality.

I for one will be ecstatic once Carbon is completely ripped from the Operating System.

Then I'll feel like I did when I worked at NeXT and Apple and was excited for the future.

stingerman
Feb 2, 2004, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by joemama
Tabbing does NOT work!

My access level may say Newbie but a newbie I am not. Of COURSE I tested it first - on the defacto standard - Orbitz and Expedia. - BOTH don't work.

I tried that Amazon link and same thing - does NOT tab to pulldown menus - just goes to input boxes.

...next you;ll be telling us it's because I am on a G4.

"Turn on full keyboard access" in the "Keyboard Shortcuts" of the Keyboard Preference pain works fine for me on the Orbitz site.

stingerman
Feb 2, 2004, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by mdriftmeyer


I for one will be ecstatic once Carbon is completely ripped from the Operating System.

Then I'll feel like I did when I worked at NeXT and Apple and was excited for the future.

I recall at the WWDC 2003 Apple stated that Carbon will always be a part of OS X, it is the Procedural API of OS X and it has its place. They showed a picture where two API's (Carbon and Cocoa) would merge into one road.

I think it is a best practice to stick with OO wherever you can and go to Carbon only when constraints force you to.

MrMacMan
Feb 2, 2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Nermal
Needs Panther, doesn't run on Jaguar! :eek: thanks apple for leaving us behind again...

Come on, what gives, not EVERYONE updated yet...

Booo.

Arg, what the hell apple.

How about you want half a year before you move on to the next operating system only?

Errr.

kcmac
Feb 2, 2004, 08:15 PM
joemama,

Safari preferences>advanced

Then select the option using the tab key to highlight links. If the other button is selected, that uses the option+tab keys to highlight the links.

I think option+tab is the default setting.

bryanzak
Feb 2, 2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by iMeowbot
Late-model Safari uses Core Graphics functions that weren't available before Panther. Doing those features conditionally is basically the same idea as maintaining multiple branches; that's almost an invitation for additional bugs to sneak in, so it's probably for the best that they're doing things the way they are.

Not only that, but Safari is built on top of all kinds of core OS technologies like Java, WebKit, CFNetwork, Keychain (for certificate support, etc.) And all of those have dependencies on even lower layers in the OS.

Safari can't be ported back to 10.2 unless Apple were to bring a lot of those core "frameworks" back to 10.2 and that's not a trivial undertaking. It's a huge chunk of what makes Panther Panther. In fact, the time and effort is simply better spent moving the platform forward, not holding it back.

At the end of the day, do you want Apple to waste time adding new features to Jaguar (i.e. Safari 1.2) or do you want them to spend time adding new value to Safari itself? If you wanted Jaguar support as well, you could never have had 1.2 right now: it would have taken far longer to develop it for 1.2 and certify it on 1.2.

If you don't want to upgrade to Panther, fine that's your choice, but Apple shouldn't waste their time and resources (which are already spread so thin) on you then when there are much better uses for that time and those resources.

Just my two cents.

Bryan

bryanzak
Feb 2, 2004, 08:28 PM
The web browser is NOT part of the OS (no matter how much MS says it is). I completly understand no more features added to 10.2.x but developing software as standard as a browser for 10.2.x is a must. I am a recent switcher, and expected MUCH more from Apple... was I wrong to expect Apple to value thier customers?

Sorry if this comes across harsh, I just am amazed at the lack of support for an OS as recent as 10.2.x [/B]

Sorry, but you clearly don't understand browser technologies. They may not be part of the OS itself, but they rely on a signficant number of OS technologies. The simple fact is those dependent technologies (look at my post just before this one) are rapidly changing on Mac OS X -- each major release brings major changes to the "plumbing" of OS X. Because this plumbing changes so drastically, it's just not reasonably to trivially support something like Safari 1.2 on 10.2 and 10.3.

Microsoft actually has an advantage here due to being the more mature technology: their plumbing is much more stable from release to release simply because they've had more time to refine it. Apple's been moving at an incredible pace on OS X and this is one of those penalties for moving so fast: to move this fast means to focus on the future, not the past.

I think Apple has no choice really. They don't have thousands (literally) of engineers like MS does to throw at problems like this. Apple has to carefully allocate their engineering resources and make decisions about where to best spend the time and effort.

Is that bad? That's your judgement. In my opinion, no, it's good for the future of Mac OS X.

Bryan

bryanzak
Feb 2, 2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Mason
Still can't use safari for MS exchange servers. I'd like to use safari to access my school's webmail, but I'm stuck with IE instead. However, ign.com seems to load properly now.

I use Safari with Exchange WebMail with no problem -- though you must turn off pop-up window blocking as that does cause problems.

Bryan

Grimace
Feb 2, 2004, 08:39 PM
Why so many negative ratings?? Apple has the most difficult to please audience EVER!!

j33pd0g
Feb 2, 2004, 08:39 PM
Did I read somewhere that you can click on a URL in mail now, and have it open in a new tab? 'Cause I'm not seeing that option.

EDIT: Never mind... I got it to work now.

bryanzak
Feb 2, 2004, 08:44 PM
Apple has said since 1997 that it plans to wean people off of Carbon legacy and move to a pure Cocoa OO Operating System.
Apple has never said that. Never, not once.

Expect the applications to eventually be 100% Cocoa from Apple and the operating system to drop Carbon within a 18 months or so
Mod poster down.

You have no idea what you speak of. Join the carbon-dev list. Read the posts from dozens of Apple folks adding very cool new technologies like HIViews and the entire new HIFramework.

Cocoa is Apple's preferred object orientated environment.

Carbon is Apple's only C/C++ based environment.

It's safe to say that Carbon is here for the long haul. (And not only because Apple has said that, but because of all the apps that use it.)

(Now if you are confusing Carbon with CFM, that's a different thing. CFM is dead. It's a legacy technology and Apple will support it for quite a while I imagine, but all new stuff is purely mach-o and framework based.)


Besides performance gains of having Foundation and AppKit no longer having to account for Carbon events it makes it much more streamlined to improve the OS and reduces SQA cycles on making sure any updates don't break legacy issues.
OK, now you are just making things up using keywords.

I for one will be ecstatic once Carbon is completely ripped from the Operating System.
Why? Without carbon you wouldn't have any menu bars! That's right, every single Cocoa app uses the Carbon menu manager.

Carbon is nothing more than a set of C based APIs. It's also the only lightwieght GUI API on Mac OS X.

I don't think you're mean spirited or dumb or anything, but you are spreading misinformation and not painting an accurate picture.

Bryan

hulugu
Feb 2, 2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Chef Ramen
too bad my equally-"fast" beige G3 is unsupported by panther because it lacks USB on the mobo. anybody know if it would work with a third-party USB PCI card? i tend to doubt it, and dont want to risk screwing this piece of **** up AGAIN, like it seems to do every few weeks, but if it would finally run well i'd be happy.

No unfortunately to run Panther a machine must have had original USB, my sysadmin has an old Wallstreet Powerbook without USB and he can't get Panther to run at all, it simply refuses to install.

wwworry
Feb 2, 2004, 08:45 PM
still no contextual menu "back" item
so firebird it remains

blackcrayon
Feb 2, 2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by hulugu
No unfortunately to run Panther a machine must have had original USB, my sysadmin has an old Wallstreet Powerbook without USB and he can't get Panther to run at all, it simply refuses to install.

That's what Xpostfacto is for http://eshop.macsales.com/OSXCenter/XPostFacto/

Of course YMMV and it's unsupported by apple.. But might be fun to try if you really want to run panther on a beige machine.

The "requires USB support" was just an easy way for apple to identify really old machines.. It's not the onboard USB hardware itself that is necessary to run panther...

kirk26
Feb 2, 2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by MrMacman
thanks apple for leaving us behind again...

Come on, what gives, not EVERYONE updated yet...

Booo.

Arg, what the hell apple.

How about you want half a year before you move on to the next operating system only?

Errr.

Ummm, there's a Jaguar and Panther version on Apple's website.

fartheststar
Feb 2, 2004, 09:20 PM
The one gripe I have is that because I am running 10.2.8 I do not have access to this update.

Although I hate windoze, when a new IE came out, it came out for all OS's (including ones over a year old).

I know there are posts about changing the "plumbing" but it's really frustrating that we who have technology that 4 months ago was "the OS of choice" cannot get these updates any more.

In any case, I'm glad that they give us the security updates.

Krizoitz
Feb 2, 2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by carletonmusic
Why so many negative ratings?? Apple has the most difficult to please audience EVER!!

This is the single most intelligent and insightful post I have read in a long time. carleton is so right. Every time Apple comes out with something I see more complaints than I could possibly imagine. People's expectations are so out of sync with reality its mind boggling. Honestly, I can so totally picture the following scenario.

*****Hypothetical Situation Begin*****
Press Release February 3rd 2004

Announcing the all new Apple PowerMac G6

Quad G6 proccessors at 5, 5.5, and 6 Ghz
1 GB PC9000 RAM upgradeable to 6 GB
2 600 GB FibreChannel HD's
64/96/48/32x DVD-RW/CD-RW
6 PCI-Z slots
Built In 100mbs Wireless networking
512 MB ATI-RAGE 15,000 Graphics Card with Triple Monitor Support
16 Button Wireless optical mouse with dual scroll wheels

Priced from $1200-$1800

*****Responses from posters on this form****

icomplainalot: What, no new Powerbooks, stupid Apple why can't they ever release the product I want when I want it

pctroll: what? only 3 times faster than a PC, apple is going out of buisness

headinthesand: when will Apple release a real mouse, 16 buttons just doesn't cut it

whineandcryMan01: but I just bought a computer last month that does all I needed it too, stupid Apple, I hate them

UberGeekxor: Man that is way to expensive, how does apple expect me to download my warez stuff of that expensive computer when I have no job and I'm too lazy to get one, they should give it to me for free cause I speak 1337

etc etc etc
****end hypothetical situation****

TitaniumX2
Feb 2, 2004, 09:31 PM
3 very simple technical reasons you'll never see this on Jaguar:

1. CoreGraphics - Shadows: you want cool blended CSS shadows, you use the system's shadow drawing class... 10.3 only.
2. XML via libxml2: libxml2 added to the system, as of 10.3.
3. SSL/Security - SecureTransport: a system framework with a custom implementation of SSL, got a large overhaul including full certificate support... 10.3 only.

crees!
Feb 2, 2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by stingerman
"Turn on full keyboard access" in the "Keyboard Shortcuts" of the Keyboard Preference pain works fine for me on the Orbitz site.

I don't think full keyboard access is the answer. I personally don't want to have to TAB through all my bookmarks and all the elements of the browser. This is for people with special needs. I cannot TAB to drop-down menus as someone earlier suggestion testing at Amazon. I can TAB to input fields though no problem.

danielgrenell
Feb 2, 2004, 09:51 PM
great update

ZildjianKX
Feb 2, 2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by elgruga
This kind of post helps no-one. Its inaccurate (Safari does some Java things fine).
Its negative and comes across as a TROLL.

If you are looking for perfection, look inside first.

He's right though, Safari has awful javascript support... which makes it useless to me ATM. Can't load half of my school's pages... so back to Camino.

I'm not sure if the javascript is causing the problem, but go to www.ign.com and watch your CPU usage max out.

Lancetx
Feb 2, 2004, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Krizoitz
This is the single most intelligent and insightful post I have read in a long time. carleton is so right. Every time Apple comes out with something I see more complaints than I could possibly imagine. People's expectations are so out of sync with reality its mind boggling. Honestly, I can so totally picture the following scenario.

*****Hypothetical Situation Begin*****
<snip>

That is the best post I've read in a long time and sums up how many other rational Mac users feel I'm sure. :)

greg6028
Feb 2, 2004, 09:58 PM
Here we go again, I should have waited! My auto fill in not working again. I can not remember all my passwords! Safari was get for inputting my passwords. But this update, like the one in Dec., removed this feature - WHY WHY?

ZildjianKX
Feb 2, 2004, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by greg6028
Here we go again, I should have waited! My auto fill in not working again. I can not remember all my passwords! Safari was get for inputting my passwords. But this update, like the one in Dec., removed this feature - WHY WHY?

Look in your keychain in the Utilities Folder maybe?

rockman2023
Feb 2, 2004, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
He's right though, Safari has awful javascript support... which makes it useless to me ATM. Can't load half of my school's pages... so back to Camino.

I'm not sure if the javascript is causing the problem, but go to www.ign.com and watch your CPU usage max out.

YEAH!!!
Ign's homepage takes FOREVER to load and I have a cable modem, wtf?! After I read the first several posts mentioning that Safari is a lot "zippier", I went to IGN to catch up on some Gamecube news, but it still takes a while to load.
I prefer EGM's website www.egmmag.com (http://www.egmmag.com); pretty much the same amount of news w/o the rediculous load time.

splashman
Feb 2, 2004, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Krizoitz
This is the single most intelligent and insightful post I have read in a long time. carleton is so right. Every time Apple comes out with something I see more complaints than I could possibly imagine. People's expectations are so out of sync with reality its mind boggling.

<snippage.

Thank you. You saved me a half-hour composing my own hypothetical situation. Great post.

Something that becomes more clear every day is that people don't communicate the same way on the web as they do in person, because in person it is immediately obvious that whining and screaming and cussing isn't the best way to get what you want. On the web, an overgrown adolescent can vent in the rudest possible fashion, and they won't get their teeth kicked in as they deserve.

kenohki
Feb 2, 2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by TitaniumX2
3 very simple technical reasons you'll never see this on Jaguar:

1. CoreGraphics - Shadows: you want cool blended CSS shadows, you use the system's shadow drawing class... 10.3 only.
2. XML via libxml2: libxml2 added to the system, as of 10.3.
3. SSL/Security - SecureTransport: a system framework with a custom implementation of SSL, got a large overhaul including full certificate support... 10.3 only.

And end users are supposed to pay because Apple's frameworks aren't nailed down and/or they won't expend the effort to update other modules and libraries that Safari is tied to? That's rediculous.

ZildjianKX
Feb 2, 2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by rockman2023
YEAH!!!
Ign's homepage takes FOREVER to load and I have a cable modem, wtf?! After I read the first several posts mentioning that Safari is a lot "zippier", I went to IGN to catch up on some Gamecube news, but it still takes a while to load.
I prefer EGM's website www.egmmag.com (http://www.egmmag.com); pretty much the same amount of news w/o the rediculous load time.

Seriously, try loading IGN on Camino (try out the latest nightly build), its amazing.

With Camino, I no longer need to use Safari for my browsing, then Internet Explorer for all those pages Safari can't load... Camino can load them all.

greg6028
Feb 2, 2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
Look in your keychain in the Utilities Folder maybe?

It's the Safari update, not my keychain.

ZildjianKX
Feb 2, 2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by greg6028
It's the Safari update, not my keychain.

I meant you can get your saved passwords out of your keychain probably, since you said you couldn't remember them...

corradokid
Feb 2, 2004, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
Seriously, try loading IGN on Camino (try out the latest nightly build), its amazing.

With Camino, I no longer need to use Safari for my browsing, then Internet Explorer for all those pages Safari can't load... Camino can load them all.

Check out Apple's newest comparison of Safari 1.2 and the competitors:
http://www.apple.com/safari/

Camino trails, but comes in second.

ZildjianKX
Feb 2, 2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by corradokid
Check out Apple's newest comparison of Safari 1.2 and the competitors:
http://www.apple.com/safari/

Camino trails, but comes in second.

Too bad they didn't test a nightly build of Camino instead of the really old beta... :-/ Hope that inspires the Camino developers to pounce on Safari even more.

Doctor Q
Feb 2, 2004, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
In case you haven't read this note in developer.apple.com

http://developer.apple.com/java/index.html

Excerpt...

Please note that Java 1.4.2 will overwrite the Java 1.4.1 installation on Panther systems and is not removable. A developer package with updated headers, documentation, and tools is also available. [Feb 02 2003]
I'll bet they mean 2004, not 2003!


Best feature of new Safari 1.2 v125: showing the pixel dimensions of images. Thanks Apple!

fartheststar
Feb 2, 2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by kenohki
And end users are supposed to pay because Apple's frameworks aren't nailed down and/or they won't expend the effort to update other modules and libraries that Safari is tied to? That's rediculous.

My thoughts exactly. Technology changed between Win98 and WinXP, but you can get IE updates for either.

As an end user, shouldn't I get Safari 1.2 free whether I have Jaguar or Panther? (Comparing as to IE updates on Wintel)

For other software, like ilife 04, MS office, FCP, DVD studio pro, I will pay for those...

But if you look at the comparison to IE, I do not feel that I should have to pay for a new version of Safari. A new version which has more options and is more universally compatible with most websites. (I currently have to flip to IE if a site doesn't like Safari 1.0)

I bet there are a lot of 10.2 users who feel the same way. I'm not paying $180 CDN to get an OS that breaks some of my programs just to get an incremental browser update for Safari, 6 months after I bought the machine.

janey
Feb 2, 2004, 11:33 PM
a picture's worth a thousand words.

http://homepage.mac.com/jane_lee/images/safaridownload.jpg

oh and for those people out ther bitching about how you cant use safari 1.2 on jaguar, think about what it would be like if you were a developer :\ yeeesh. talk about unsatisfiable customers. you do something they want you to do, and they complain even more. might as well not do anything they want you to do :\

Doctor Q
Feb 2, 2004, 11:38 PM
Here's another thousand words about the change in direction for the reload icon. Why would the programmers change this, unless they were paid by the hour and ran out of more important changes to make?

Before and after the Safari update:

Rower_CPU
Feb 2, 2004, 11:41 PM
I've seen people confuse it with the "back" button because of its direction. It's a subtle distinction, but a good change, I think.

mdriftmeyer
Feb 2, 2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
Too bad they didn't test a nightly build of Camino instead of the really old beta... :-/ Hope that inspires the Camino developers to pounce on Safari even more.

Considering he works in Apple Engineering I would expect him to devote more time to Safari and other Engineering tasks.

crees!
Feb 2, 2004, 11:44 PM
For those of you who noticed the reload button has changed direction it also acts as a "Go" button. For instance, type in part of an address you've been to before, let it auto-complete it, then click the "reload" button. I'm a keyboard guy so I'll just hit RETURN instead. BTW, was/is this implemented in Safari 1.1.1?

mdriftmeyer
Feb 2, 2004, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by bryanzak
Apple has never said that. Never, not once.


Mod poster down.

You have no idea what you speak of. Join the carbon-dev list. Read the posts from dozens of Apple folks adding very cool new technologies like HIViews and the entire new HIFramework.

Cocoa is Apple's preferred object orientated environment.

Carbon is Apple's only C/C++ based environment.

It's safe to say that Carbon is here for the long haul. (And not only because Apple has said that, but because of all the apps that use it.)

(Now if you are confusing Carbon with CFM, that's a different thing. CFM is dead. It's a legacy technology and Apple will support it for quite a while I imagine, but all new stuff is purely mach-o and framework based.)



OK, now you are just making things up using keywords.


Why? Without carbon you wouldn't have any menu bars! That's right, every single Cocoa app uses the Carbon menu manager.

Carbon is nothing more than a set of C based APIs. It's also the only lightwieght GUI API on Mac OS X.

I don't think you're mean spirited or dumb or anything, but you are spreading misinformation and not painting an accurate picture.

Bryan

Yes Apple said this at WWDC 1997 and 1998. I had to hand out the damn Carbon pamphlets personally.

Carbon is not Apple's only C/C++ set of Frameworks.

Hell Quartz is written in C and C++.

If you mean to claim it is there only public C/C++ frameworks than you don't write many device drivers do you?

I/O Kit is all C/C++.

The Server Sockets are all what? And so on and so forth.

WebCore is C++ with Objective-C interfaces. If you want to write your interfaces you're more than happy to do so.

ALoLA
Feb 2, 2004, 11:50 PM
No problems with the download for Safari and Java 1.4.2 on both of my iMacs (upgraded tangerine and flat panel, both running Panther). :) By the way, I have been using Safari for online banking for a while now. I wonder what problems other have been having. Bank of America as well. :confused:

ipoddin
Feb 3, 2004, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by kirk26
Ummm, there's a Jaguar and Panther version on Apple's website.

Really, and are they both the same version number offering the same features? No, I don't think so. It's not like we're asking 1.2 to run on OS 7!!! We're talking about shutting out an OS that's only been upgraded a couple months ago.

ipoddin
Feb 3, 2004, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by übergeek
a picture's worth a thousand words.

http://homepage.mac.com/jane_lee/images/safaridownload.jpg

oh and for those people out ther bitching about how you cant use safari 1.2 on jaguar, think about what it would be like if you were a developer :\ yeeesh. talk about unsatisfiable customers. you do something they want you to do, and they complain even more. might as well not do anything they want you to do :\

We're talking about Apple here, not some third party developer trying to appeal to everyone. A vast majority, of MS software (including those developed by MS) will work on OS'es that are 6 years old.

BobVB
Feb 3, 2004, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by ALoLA
I wonder what problems other have been having. Bank of America as well. :confused:

Bank of America doesn't have a universal site, various combination of states each have their own, so maybe there are problems with some sites and not others?

I'm with you though, I have been using the Washington state BoA site with Safari without a problem for some time now.

ZildjianKX
Feb 3, 2004, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
Considering he works in Apple Engineering I would expect him to devote more time to Safari and other Engineering tasks.

Wait, I'm a bit confused... who works for Apple Engineering? The Safari programmers...?

ShnikeJSB
Feb 3, 2004, 12:39 AM
After waiting for God knows how long to get Uproar.com to work, it FINALLY WORKS with these two updates (Java and Safari)!!! I can FINALLY play Family Feud and Acrophobia and such! It NEVER used to work, and I have been trying to get it to work for years, and now it does, and I am happy! No problems with Safari yet, and I used the tips for getting Pith Helmet to work on Versiontracker.com, and all is well. Now, for some HARDWARE updates Apple! -JB

Rower_CPU
Feb 3, 2004, 12:42 AM
ZildjianKX-
I think he was referring to Dave Hyatt (http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/), former Chimera/Camino developer who now works on Safari.

BaghdadBob
Feb 3, 2004, 12:50 AM
They had better update to 1.2 on Jaguar, ffs, IT IS A JAGUAR APP. This is not iChat AV or something. Failing to support software you originally released on a platform that has only been outdated a few months (and that I bought less than a year ago) would be RETARDED.

ZildjianKX
Feb 3, 2004, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
ZildjianKX-
I think he was referring to Dave Hyatt (http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/), former Chimera/Camino developer who now works on Safari.

But Camino is very actively developed now... :-/ ... so I was sort of confused... much more actively developed than Safari is.

Doctor Q
Feb 3, 2004, 01:00 AM
Listings at tvguide.com still display with the left column truncated. I was hoping it was a Safari glitch, and that it would be fixed with this release. I now suspect (without any proof) that the site is the problem, and that the pages were coded specifically for Internet Explorer. So I'll continue to grumble and use I.E. for this site only.

zync
Feb 3, 2004, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Selecter
I cant believe the number of people that seem to have regular problems everytime a new update appears.

I have NEVER had ONE SINGLE issue on my Dual 1.8 - not one. Everything has always simply worked and worked fast.

the new Java and the new Safari appear to be continuing this tradition.

Whats with you poeple that have problems, update after update? I could name 2 names I've noticed have have at least one issue with every single update Apple has released since I've owned this machine, but that would lead to kaos. I've noticed, though. Some of you ( and you know who you are ) need to find a better way to get attention.

I agree but I think usually the people with problems are the people who don't get things showing up in software update. I don't know how that happens...it's never happened to me and I have also never had even one problem updating, I mean it's automatic. What are you guys doing while you're trying to install these things? Do you have like a 5GB file open in photoshop consisting of 99 layers of complex over-saturated images at 2048x1536? All while watching a movie from a Divx file on another monitor? And ripping a CD in iTunes? :)

jaredbbauer
Feb 3, 2004, 01:11 AM
Look, I am actually a pretty experienced mac user... But.... Safari is a piece of ******... I like it much more than all of the other browsers but for some reason the last month it will not open up. I have reinstalled it and yet it still will not open. It starts to open up a page and unexpectadly quits every single time!!!!

IF YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS PLEASE HELP ME... OH... and if for some reason you do not think that this post belongs keep it to yourself no one cares!!!

MacBandit
Feb 3, 2004, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by joemama
Tabbing does NOT work!

My access level may say Newbie but a newbie I am not. Of COURSE I tested it first - on the defacto standard - Orbitz and Expedia. - BOTH don't work.

I tried that Amazon link and same thing - does NOT tab to pulldown menus - just goes to input boxes.

...next you;ll be telling us it's because I am on a G4.

You need to go to the system preferences and then the keyboard&mouse prefpane.

Once they're select the keyboard shortcuts tab. At the bottom of the window there should be a option to turn on full keyboard access. Do this.

Once you have done what I explained above tabbing to dropdowns will now work.

As for cycling through items in a drop down with same first letter don't stop at the first letter. Start typing the name of the item you want and it will select it.

MacBandit
Feb 3, 2004, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
He's right though, Safari has awful javascript support... which makes it useless to me ATM. Can't load half of my school's pages... so back to Camino.

I'm not sure if the javascript is causing the problem, but go to www.ign.com and watch your CPU usage max out.

Actually it does go to 100% on one cpu but only while loading the page. There's nothing wrong with that. It just means the page is being rendered nearly as fast as possible. It does the same thing anytime I load any other page as well and after a few seconds drops back down to 4-10% useage depending on what's going on on the page.

MacBandit
Feb 3, 2004, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by crees!
I don't think full keyboard access is the answer. I personally don't want to have to TAB through all my bookmarks and all the elements of the browser. This is for people with special needs. I cannot TAB to drop-down menus as someone earlier suggestion testing at Amazon. I can TAB to input fields though no problem.

You will only tab through all the UI elements if you have the page document selected and not the menu bar.

Also it sounds like you have your tab prefs set so that to tab to drop down menus and such you need to press option-tab. You can change this to just tab in the Safari preferences.

MacBandit
Feb 3, 2004, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by Doctor Q
Here's another thousand words about the change in direction for the reload icon. Why would the programmers change this, unless they were paid by the hour and ran out of more important changes to make?

Before and after the Safari update:

It's a sub-concsious thing. Counter-clockwise means to go backwards to most of the world. Clockwise means to go forwards. Thus changing it to clockwise means that it does not simply reload it but gets the latest data. It's not a big thing but it's the little things like that which make the Mac OS the Mac OS and not Windoze.

MacBandit
Feb 3, 2004, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by jaredbbauer
Look, I am actually a pretty experienced mac user... But.... Safari is a piece of ******... I like it much more than all of the other browsers but for some reason the last month it will not open up. I have reinstalled it and yet it still will not open. It starts to open up a page and unexpectadly quits every single time!!!!

IF YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS PLEASE HELP ME... OH... and if for some reason you do not think that this post belongs keep it to yourself no one cares!!!

Start a new thread in the help forums. You will get a lot more help.

Have you tried deleting all prefs and Safari support files? Repairing permissions? Deleting cache files? Running nightly/weekly/monthly tasks? Running a disk check? Where are you in your diagnosis? Please do not reply to this here start a new thread.

MacBandit
Feb 3, 2004, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by zync
I agree but I think usually the people with problems are the people who don't get things showing up in software update. I don't know how that happens...it's never happened to me and I have also never had even one problem updating, I mean it's automatic. What are you guys doing while you're trying to install these things? Do you have like a 5GB file open in photoshop consisting of 99 layers of complex over-saturated images at 2048x1536? All while watching a movie from a Divx file on another monitor? And ripping a CD in iTunes? :)

A huge huge part of problems with Software update not recognizing you need the update and with problems post update are due to user error. People move application files from the directory they were originally installed in. This is fine for 3rd party programs that do not need to be updated automatically with software update but if it needs this then leave it alone. Create your folder you want it in and put an alias of the app in it rather then moving the app. I learned this lesson with 10.1 and it hasn't changed since.

zync
Feb 3, 2004, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by Krizoitz
This is the single most intelligent and insightful post I have read in a long time. carleton is so right. Every time Apple comes out with something I see more complaints than I could possibly imagine. People's expectations are so out of sync with reality its mind boggling. Honestly, I can so totally picture the following scenario.

*****Hypothetical Situation Begin*****
Press Release February 3rd 2004

Announcing the all new Apple PowerMac G6

Quad G6 proccessors at 5, 5.5, and 6 Ghz
1 GB PC9000 RAM upgradeable to 6 GB
2 600 GB FibreChannel HD's
64/96/48/32x DVD-RW/CD-RW
6 PCI-Z slots
Built In 100mbs Wireless networking
512 MB ATI-RAGE 15,000 Graphics Card with Triple Monitor Support
16 Button Wireless optical mouse with dual scroll wheels

Priced from $1200-$1800

*****Responses from posters on this form****

icomplainalot: What, no new Powerbooks, stupid Apple why can't they ever release the product I want when I want it

pctroll: what? only 3 times faster than a PC, apple is going out of buisness

headinthesand: when will Apple release a real mouse, 16 buttons just doesn't cut it

whineandcryMan01: but I just bought a computer last month that does all I needed it too, stupid Apple, I hate them

UberGeekxor: Man that is way to expensive, how does apple expect me to download my warez stuff of that expensive computer when I have no job and I'm too lazy to get one, they should give it to me for free cause I speak 1337

etc etc etc
****end hypothetical situation****

Hilarious man but you forgot one key person in the mix:

imalwaysrightcauseireason: dude shut up about the powerbooks already, I smell a troll, one button is all you need, give apple all your money it's not like you'll do something useful with it anyway besides you bought what you got buggy or not it doesn't say on the box that you can open up IE without it crashing on you even though IT COMES WITH IT I mean do you honestly think iPhoto was made to be fast with more than 10 photos in a library, and good god man give it a rest and actually buy your software for a change freakin' pirate and take your mexican friend warez with you...

I'm just playing man...great stuff....I fit in some of those catagories sometimes but you have to admit that Apple is a company that innovates yes, but it innovates to the point where it alienates....they're so secretive about everything that no one truly knows when to buy stuff especially if you don't follow rumor sites...had I waited 4 months to buy an iPod I'd have double the storage (and my iPod would actually have space on it :)) not to mention key features I requested...I've taken it with a grain of salt now but you have to admit that people not used to Apple (which is pretty much everyone at this point since it's become so different since even OS9) will have these kind of complaints....give them a bit longer in these forums and that'll temper them to the harsh business practices of Apple! UPGRADE OR DIE, no wait UPGRADE OR DON'T! Yeah that's it! Though Panther is worth the speed does the upgrade actually merit 129 (or 79) dollars from you? For most people, probably not actually...I'd probably be in their boat if it wasn't for UTD....hopefully I'll decide the next version will warrant my 79...with the new iApps it probably will....anyway hope you found my stuff as funny as I found yours :)

greenstork
Feb 3, 2004, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by bryanzak
Sorry, but you clearly don't understand browser technologies. They may not be part of the OS itself, but they rely on a signficant number of OS technologies. The simple fact is those dependent technologies (look at my post just before this one) are rapidly changing on Mac OS X -- each major release brings major changes to the "plumbing" of OS X. Because this plumbing changes so drastically, it's just not reasonably to trivially support something like Safari 1.2 on 10.2 and 10.3.

Microsoft actually has an advantage here due to being the more mature technology: their plumbing is much more stable from release to release simply because they've had more time to refine it. Apple's been moving at an incredible pace on OS X and this is one of those penalties for moving so fast: to move this fast means to focus on the future, not the past.

I think Apple has no choice really. They don't have thousands (literally) of engineers like MS does to throw at problems like this. Apple has to carefully allocate their engineering resources and make decisions about where to best spend the time and effort.

Is that bad? That's your judgement. In my opinion, no, it's good for the future of Mac OS X.

Bryan

Very well said!

zync
Feb 3, 2004, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by jaredbbauer
Look, I am actually a pretty experienced mac user... But.... Safari is a piece of ******... I like it much more than all of the other browsers but for some reason the last month it will not open up. I have reinstalled it and yet it still will not open. It starts to open up a page and unexpectadly quits every single time!!!!

IF YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS PLEASE HELP ME... OH... and if for some reason you do not think that this post belongs keep it to yourself no one cares!!!

Not sure exactly why but my friend's mom has this problem with IE in 10.1....

ZildjianKX
Feb 3, 2004, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit
Actually it does go to 100% on one cpu but only while loading the page. There's nothing wrong with that. It just means the page is being rendered nearly as fast as possible. It does the same thing anytime I load any other page as well and after a few seconds drops back down to 4-10% useage depending on what's going on on the page.

No, its not normal... it takes Safari 15 seconds to load the page, taking 100% CPU usage the whole time... to the point where my fans have to rev up on my G5.

In comparison, Camino takes 4 seconds, and the CPU never hits above 80%... there is definately something wrong there.

MacBandit
Feb 3, 2004, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
No, its not normal... it takes Safari 15 seconds to load the page, taking 100% CPU usage the whole time... to the point where my fans have to rev up on my G5.

In comparison, Camino takes 4 seconds, and the CPU never hits above 80%... there is definately something wrong there.

There is something wrong on your machine. Maybe it's the caching. I find pages actually load faster if you have caching turned off if you are on broadband of some sort.

I just just timed my load time of IGN.com with no cache it took 6.2 secs. Yes this is a little long but hardly enough time to cause any system heat up or huge pause or anything.

This is on a Dual/1.42 with 1GB of RAM by the way and about 8 other apps open including Handbrake which is a program that converts DVDs to Mpeg4 video files. It is currently taking 178% of the cpu time. I imagine my load times might be actually faster if I had paused this program.

bryanzak
Feb 3, 2004, 02:49 AM
Carbon is not Apple's only C/C++ set of Frameworks.
Yes, sorry, I was not very precise about that. Carbon is Apple's only API for writing GUI based apps in C/C++. For example, all the major cross-platform frameworks from Qt to Whisper to younameit is built on Carbon.

Bryan

acrobat
Feb 3, 2004, 02:51 AM
so far, i'm a big fan of the new Safari. however, there is one thing that i went to check right away when i updated. the website of U2 (u2.com), who is a huge Mac supporter as well as a supporter of the iTMS, does not properly show up. it didn't before, and it doesn't now. all the graphics show up, but the text does not. i don't know if this is a java thing or not, but it's just kinda sad that a group who is and has been so supportive of Apple and the Mac is not supported by the Mac Browser of Choice. besides that, i love Safari and am just waiting for some hardware updates tomorrow! (or the next day, or the next week, or...)

Seamaster
Feb 3, 2004, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by Mason
Still can't use safari for MS exchange servers. I'd like to use safari to access my school's webmail, but I'm stuck with IE instead. However, ign.com seems to load properly now.

Huh?

I've been using Safari since day one to access my corporate email via MS Exchange/Outlook webmail. Sometimes it screws up the rendering of message text, but clicking "view as webpage" fixes this.

Seamaster

iMeowbot
Feb 3, 2004, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by Dave_B

So the khtml engine will be available for 10.2 users, just not from Apple.

That's a bit of a stretch. Apple make the sources for the guts available to everyone right here (http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/webcore/index.html). If it's practical to get the new stuff working under Panther, they even offer a link so people can show them how to do it.

surf21
Feb 3, 2004, 03:31 AM
Well if you want to know how fast are you downloading just alt click on time remaining and it will change from time remaining to k/s .. cool

bgarnett
Feb 3, 2004, 03:32 AM
It really irks me how Apple has released v1.2 only for Panther, excluding Jaguar users. I have an iMac 17" at work, where I.T. take positively eones to upgrade to the next OS release (10.3). As a result I am stuck on the last version of Jaguar to be released.

Up until this point I had been considering a Mac for my next home computer. But when I see a company like Apple blatenly ignoring the majority who still use versions prior to Panther, it convinces me not to bother with the platform.

ZildjianKX
Feb 3, 2004, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit
There is something wrong on your machine. Maybe it's the caching. I find pages actually load faster if you have caching turned off if you are on broadband of some sort.

I just just timed my load time of IGN.com with no cache it took 6.2 secs. Yes this is a little long but hardly enough time to cause any system heat up or huge pause or anything.

This is on a Dual/1.42 with 1GB of RAM by the way and about 8 other apps open including Handbrake which is a program that converts DVDs to Mpeg4 video files. It is currently taking 178% of the cpu time. I imagine my load times might be actually faster if I had paused this program.

Thanks for the input... I tried disabling my cache, but with the same results. I have tested this on 3 macs, all running Panther with the same results though... :-/

grouse
Feb 3, 2004, 04:09 AM
I'm running Advanced Web Ranking Pro version 2.3 which requires Java 1.4.1, does anyone know by any chance if it will continue to work under 1.4.2, 'cos if not, I'd better wait.

And will Safari 1.2 run fine without Java 1.4.2, if I do have to wait a bit?

I thought I'd ask, just in case.

johnnyjibbs
Feb 3, 2004, 05:07 AM
I think Apple has a problem with it developing such big OS updates (i.e. Jaguar and Panther, 10.4?) in such a short amount of time and then charging for them. It is simply too expensive for most people to upgrade every year (esepecially when you factor in iLife updates and other software). Sure, you don't need Panther, but if I had not upgraded, I would have been stuck with a verison of Safari that was buggy and could not load secure sites for me. This was fixed with Panther, and I can't see why it needs core Panther technologies for that.

If Safari, an independent app from the OS, is so closely reliant on core OS technologies, then Apple should consider providing at least a cheap upgrade path for users of the previous version. After all, if you already have Jaguar, you are paying the full price of Panther to upgrade, even though much of the product is the same.

Sure, there are comparisons with Windows and IE explorer. Ok, so I wouldn't expect any software updates for my Win 98 PC at home. But that OS is 6 years old. Jaguar was being sold for new until last October.

Sorry for the rant, but I feel that if there was a better upgrade path, the current Jaguar 10.2.8 runners would feel compelled to upgrade. As it is, Panther is better value for 10.1.5 users and excellent value for OS 9 users (presuming their computer can run it!).

ervinocus
Feb 3, 2004, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by sethypoo
If Apple's page says Panther, then believe me, it's for Panther.

And if Apple tells "JUMP!" you are only allowed to ask "HOW HIGH, SIR?", right? :rolleyes: :D

tmeader
Feb 3, 2004, 05:51 AM
I've found that Safari 1.2 completely botches the <optgroup> tag. The headings setup via <optgroup> still appear, but there is now NO differentiation between them and the option lists which are under them. In Safari 1.1 it was bad enough that you could select the <optgroup> heading, and it would default to the first option under it, now there's this to deal with too? If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's select lists that look like this:

Windows
&nbsp;&nbsp;Windows 95
&nbsp;&nbsp;Windows 98
&nbsp;&nbsp;Windows XP
Linux
&nbsp;&nbsp;Redhat Linux
&nbsp;&nbsp;Mandrake Linux
&nbsp;&nbsp;.......

In Safari 1.2, there is no indentation anymore. And you can still click on either "Windows" or "Linux" in the above example. Doing so would fill in "Windows 95" or "Redhat Linux" respectively. Come on Apple, EVERY other browser made for OSX gets this correct. Hell, even IE 5 on OSX does it well (better than any other I've seen as a matter of fact). This is an extremely useful feature for cleaning up complex select lists, and being as how Safari is now the built in default browser... this NEEDS to be supported well.

iChan
Feb 3, 2004, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by schreiman
Tabbing into drop down menus works wonderfully. Please try it before posting how stupid Apple is -
Goto www.amazon.com
[tab] - brings you to their "sections" drop down
[space] - drops the menu down
try [e], [v]
WATCH it go first to "electronics", then "everything"
Very slick, deals with unordered lists appropriately.
I'm happy. Thanks Apple (finally).

doesnt seem to work for me anyway.

Matrix9180
Feb 3, 2004, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by TorbX
I dont like that I have to right-click to get the "open in new tab"-option. I want this to be an one-click operation.

Have a scroll wheel? Click the middle button.

Mafia00
Feb 3, 2004, 06:26 AM
I love that they added "Open link in new tab" ... I recommended that feature a few months back

Matrix9180
Feb 3, 2004, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by maxtrax
Why is it that you still can't tab to a drop down menu? Does anyone care about tabbing to a link? I just want to tab thru a form without having to use the mouse for the dropdown menus. I really thought that would be addressed in this build.

On another note the caching problems seem to have been fixed, and for those of you who didn't come across it often, Safari could not refresh a page inside a frame and what pain that was for me, with our backend systems all in multiple framed pages.

So far it is faster and many bugs are fixed. I did think I read that tabbing thru a form was supposed to be working like it does in IE.

Oh well... I am still very happy happy with this update.

You CAN tab to a drop down menu... then you hit the space bar and then use teh arrow keys to go through the options.

Matrix9180
Feb 3, 2004, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Stella
Seems an OK update.

However -
* I doubt whether this version of Safari will ever be released for Jaquar...

* Still no Undo function....

Just curious, what exactly would you do with an undo function in a browser?

Matrix9180
Feb 3, 2004, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by pwrst2
A couple of earlier posters are only partially incorrect about the tabbing to drop-down menus feature. While you can tab to a drop down menu, and you can then use the arrow keys to navigate it, you *cannot* type a letter on the keyboard to select the first menu item that begins with that letter. What's the point without this ability? This is such an easy feature to implement; most other browsers on any platform have had it for years, including IE, Mozilla, etc. It has been such a pain since I started to use Safari to have to use the mouse every time I select my state.....come on Apple, what were you thinking? It's the "little" things that make Macs great.
hit space first. then do it...

Matrix9180
Feb 3, 2004, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by phasornc
Apple needs to grow up. Even M$ allows users of older OSes to use the latest IE.

And don't tell me to get Panther, when you have 35 machines to upgrade in an office environment you can't just update at the drop of a hat. Namely there are still no Jaguar drivers for our high speed industrial printers.

So you're telling me that your offices absolutely cannot survive without the latest version of Safari? give me a break. Quit whining!

Stella
Feb 3, 2004, 06:46 AM
Typing stuff in text boxes and especially Memo boxes - *especially* memo boxes.


Originally posted by Matrix9180
Just curious, what exactly would you do with an undo function in a browser?

Matrix9180
Feb 3, 2004, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by joemama
Tabbing does NOT work!

My access level may say Newbie but a newbie I am not. Of COURSE I tested it first - on the defacto standard - Orbitz and Expedia. - BOTH don't work.

I tried that Amazon link and same thing - does NOT tab to pulldown menus - just goes to input boxes.

...next you;ll be telling us it's because I am on a G4.
Do you have full keyboard support enabled in your preferences?

And just because YOU can't figure out how to get it to work doesn't mean that EVERYBODY on the board that says it does is lying. Calm down.

kenohki
Feb 3, 2004, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Matrix9180
So you're telling me that your offices absolutely cannot survive without the latest version of Safari? give me a break. Quit whining!

They can probably survive. But if Apple has EOLed support for Safari on anything but OS 10.3, Apple has screwed them into using BETA QUALITY software unless they upgrade all their OS licenses.

This is a shady business tactic and people know it. People aren't just whining for the sake of it. They're mad because this isn't fair treatment. Apple has been getting themselves into some class action lawsuits over the poor end user support of their hardware and software (and has been required to compensate people by the judge in at least one case). So I would say that there are more than just a few peole that feel like Apple is giving them the schtick.

billyboy
Feb 3, 2004, 07:07 AM
It seems a bit premature to say that Jaguar users have been left out in the cold - 12 hours is a long time in politics, but in browser terms, a mere bagatelle. But even if Apple never touch an "old" version of Safari again, there are arguably better browsers for Jaguar out there than Safari anyway - Camino for one absolutely flies on Jaguar.

I would have thought Apple's priority was making OS X and its in-house apps run as well as possible. I guess they release new versions and updates and decide when to reduce or cut support, based on what ties into their development plans, and no doubt they play around with stats for maximum damage limitation. In numbers terms it seems a no-brainer to focus on Safari for Panther. They are appealing to the 60% users who are still on say, OS9, and they are pleasing the numbers who have already snatched Panther regardless of when they bought Jaguar Those numbers must surely dwarf the numbers of people who bought into Jaguar from say June to October last year and feel aggrieved at what is going on.

BevvyB
Feb 3, 2004, 07:10 AM
Since I installed 10.3 not one version of Safari has workd - I always get 'Safari unexpectedly quit'

Even with this new version

I've trashed fonts, run the deepest cache clean, restored permissions, trashed and re-trashed all Safari files, you name it. I've tried installing on new users, old users, new admins, moved files around...

Does anyone have any ideas? I'm all out. And I hate using Explorer.

jvaska
Feb 3, 2004, 07:16 AM
ah, my one bug report might have actually been read...a very weird bug that caused popup windows (javascript) to center in the middle of the screen has been fixed...on the previous version it would absolutely not work properly...

i'll be curious to read how much better the css support is in this version...v

neier
Feb 3, 2004, 07:17 AM
I didn't see this in any of the earlier comments, but something I just noticed is that right-clicking inside a frame now gives you the option of also opening up the frame in a new TAB. Before, we could only open the frame in a new window. That change is worth the price of admission, all by itself. :cool:

groovebuster
Feb 3, 2004, 07:17 AM
OK,... so Safari 1.2 doesn't work anymore with some website it worked with flawlessly before with the older version.

I hate it that everytime Apple updates a software the old bugs are just replaced by new ones! :(

Talking about 10.3.2? Since I installed the update all my machines don't work as stable anymore as they used to do. I don't even get a kernel panic. The computers just freeze without any warning. The only thing I can say is that 50% of the freezes happen after waking up from sleep. And no, it's like that on all machines I am using since I updated. Yes, I repaired permissions and I don't have "bad" RAM. I know several other users who reported the same problems.

Apple, there is something called QA... remember?

groovebuster

sebisworld
Feb 3, 2004, 07:17 AM
So, it claims it can resume downloads. But I can't get it to work. Safari still complains about open downloads when closing and does not pick them up later on.

And, by the way, the other day I thought that it would be cool to see the status of a download in Finder *g* I did not know Apple read minds.

groovebuster
Feb 3, 2004, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by Matrix9180
Just curious, what exactly would you do with an undo function in a browser?

Did you ever fill out a form with a "big" text box? Whatever you are doing in that text box, you can't undo it!

Once in a while you are writing a longer paragrah and then by accident you delete a big part or you paste too much text into the box...

That's fun! :rolleyes:

groovebuster

jvaska
Feb 3, 2004, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by BevvyB
Since I installed 10.3 not one version of Safari has workd - I always get 'Safari unexpectedly quit'

Does anyone have any ideas? I'm all out. And I hate using Explorer.

First of all, don't us Explorer. Use Firebird it's mega fast and has good tabbed browsing as well. Camino is good too, but I much prefer Firebird.

Did you do a clean install? Did you totally erase that hard drive? It sounds like it could somehow be a conflict with something else - you might reinstall and then only install Safari before installing anything else - see what happens then.

Good luck...v

Telomar
Feb 3, 2004, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by kenohki
They can probably survive. But if Apple has EOLed support for Safari on anything but OS 10.3, Apple has screwed them into using BETA QUALITY software unless they upgrade all their OS licenses. Both Jaguar and Panther ship with IE still. If you feel Safari is a beta don't use it as the default browser, use IE.

There were just too many changes to Safari and the libraries going from 1.0 to 1.1 to keep Jaguar support. Too much became integrated into the OS. I rather expect post 10.4 Safari will still be able to be updated on 10.3 machines since the foundations will be in place but for Jaguar a substantial overhaul would be needed.

ebow
Feb 3, 2004, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Matrix9180
You CAN tab to a drop down menu... then you hit the space bar and then use teh arrow keys to go through the options.

That's only if you enable the full keyboard support in System Preferences.

Personally, I don't need to be able to tab to ever control in every app, I just want to be able to use the tab key to get to all of the fields of a form. Most browsers do this, and it's just something I think most users expect, and most users won't be using any universal access enhancements.

Basically, it's a workflow thing, not a universal access thing.

I still wouldn't vote negative on this story just for want of this form navigation peeve (I'll leave the Jaguar issue alone)--I'm pretty happy with the little I've used Safari 1.2 so far, and I'm glad to see incremental advances.

kenohki
Feb 3, 2004, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Telomar
Both Jaguar and Panther ship with IE still. If you feel Safari is a beta don't use it as the default browser, use IE.

There were just too many changes to Safari and the libraries going from 1.0 to 1.1 to keep Jaguar support. Too much became integrated into the OS. I rather expect post 10.4 Safari will still be able to be updated on 10.3 machines since the foundations will be in place but for Jaguar a substantial overhaul would be needed.

As I stated before, just because Apple engineering hadn't pinned down their framework and library structure in the 1.0/10.2 release doesn't mean end users should suffer. Having poorly planned software engineering that precludes backward compatibility makes me even less inclined to shell out 129 bones for their code.

I'll go back to using a Mozilla based browser. I just feel stupid for trying to support Safari in the first place. The only reason I stuck with it through all its compatibility and rendering problems was because I figured if it showed up in software like Webtrends enough, developers would start to test for it. Guess karma came around and bit me in the you know what.

Incidentally, new IE development has been ceased for all versions of Mac OS. Camino here I come.

Fat Tony
Feb 3, 2004, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by BobVB
Bank of America doesn't have a universal site, various combination of states each have their own, so maybe there are problems with some sites and not others?

I'm with you though, I have been using the Washington state BoA site with Safari without a problem for some time now.

Yeah, that's why I was saying BofA was half supporting Safari. I have no problem accessing my personal account at www.bofa.com for Virginia. It's been working well for quite some time. Yet, if you have a MyBankof America account and try to access from Safari it has never worked. At least for me. In fact with this version of Safari, if you enter your user name and password you get thrown into a 20 second loop of different addresses trying to load and then finally spit out at a page that looks like the MyBofA site but asks you to update your email address and provides you with this gem of info near the bottom.


Your information is sent through SSL.

Secured Socket Layer (SSL) technology secretly encodes information that is being sent over the Internet between your computer and Bank of America, helping to ensure that the information remains confidential. The use of SSL requires that you have an SSL compatible browser. While older browser versions may support SSL sessions, Bank of America strongly recommends the following browsers:
Internet Explorer 4.01 or later (except 6.0) for Windows 95, 98 and NT operating systems

Internet Explorer 5.0 or later (except 6.0) for Macintosh

Internet Explorer 5.5 or later (except 6.0) for Windows 2000 and Windows Millennium

Netscape 4.08 or later (except 6.0) for all operating systems

Netscape Communicator 4.7 or later (except 6.0) for all operating systems

You can download the latest version from either of the links below.


Don't worry BofA. I won't be trying to access your site with Internet Explorer 6.0 from my Mac. :rolleyes:

Samurai980
Feb 3, 2004, 08:37 AM
I hate this update just because of one little problem. They took out the direct download minus the damn dialog. Now everytime I try to download something a stupid dialog box pops up forcing me to hit enter.

:mad:

I hate it. I hate it with a passion. This is why I hated Mozilla/Netscape for the longest time.

PalmHarborTchr
Feb 3, 2004, 08:45 AM
Macrumors should have disclosed that
this upgrade for safari is only for those
who paid the $100 to up grade from
10.2.8 to 10.3. What were you
guys thinking......that everyone
has the $$ and has bought the
10.3 CD?:(

howard
Feb 3, 2004, 08:52 AM
yeah i hate how apple is leaving the people who don't need to upgrade in the dust...well at least they have other options

JayBee
Feb 3, 2004, 08:57 AM
For those harping on about the lack of Jag support and class action suits etc... Let's just have a calm look at the side of the Jaguar box, shall we?

Featured Applications:
Address Book, DVD Player, iChat, iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, Mail, Sherlock 3, Adobe Acrobat Reader 5, Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.2

Do you see Safari on that list? I sure don't. I'm not trying to make excuses for Apple's lack of support, but let's be honest here - nobody's forcing you to use "Beta quality" browsing software in Jaguar. So Apple has discontinued support for Safari in Jag. Is that a great move? I don't think so, but that doesn't mean we should all start whining about it. If I consider Camino to be beta quality (and I do) then what the hell am I using it for? Likewise with Safari.

Apple is using some of Panther's new strengths in developing their browser. Jaguar it seems doesn't have these strengths. Is that an incentive to upgrade to Panther? Maybe, it's up to you.

But let's get real. Apple's refusal to update (note, that's NOT the same as refusing to SUPPORT) its software for certain systems hardly deprives you of a browser. If you considered Safari beta, then why were you using it? Was it good enough to use? If so, is it suddenly broken?

Go and use Omniweb, or Camino, or Firebird - and leave the lawsuits to the lawyers.

kirk26
Feb 3, 2004, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by ipoddin
Really, and are they both the same version number offering the same features? No, I don't think so. It's not like we're asking 1.2 to run on OS 7!!! We're talking about shutting out an OS that's only been upgraded a couple months ago.

My bad, your right. I have a brain of a PC user and not all there today!

tjwett
Feb 3, 2004, 09:18 AM
:o i'm having way to much fun with the OmniWeb 5 Public Beta.

garlicboy
Feb 3, 2004, 09:35 AM
I am disheartened that Apple choose to make Safari 1.2 only available to panther users. Has anyone tried to make Safari work with Jaguar? With my G4, I saw no advantage to updating to Panther....I guess this is Apple's leverage

garlicboy

Krizoitz
Feb 3, 2004, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by ervinocus
And if Apple tells "JUMP!" you are only allowed to ask "HOW HIGH, SIR?", right? :rolleyes: :D

Thats a completely innacurate comparison

kenohki
Feb 3, 2004, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by JayBee
For those harping on about the lack of Jag support and class action suits etc... Let's just have a calm look at the side of the Jaguar box, shall we?

Featured Applications:
Address Book, DVD Player, iChat, iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, Mail, Sherlock 3, Adobe Acrobat Reader 5, Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.2

Do you see Safari on that list? I sure don't.

I don't see Logic, Final Cut Pro, Shake, Adobe Photoshop, Microsoft Office, Quark XPress etc. on that list either but yet I still expect that I'll be able to use the next version of those in Jaguar. Even the new iLife suite runs in Jaguar (and it actually provides new features rather than bug fixes).

I'm not trying to make excuses for Apple's lack of support, but let's be honest here - nobody's forcing you to use "Beta quality" browsing software in Jaguar. So Apple has discontinued support for Safari in Jag. Is that a great move? I don't think so, but that doesn't mean we should all start whining about it. If I consider Camino to be beta quality (and I do) then what the hell am I using it for? Likewise with Safari.

Apple is using some of Panther's new strengths in developing their browser. Jaguar it seems doesn't have these strengths. Is that an incentive to upgrade to Panther? Maybe, it's up to you.

But let's get real. Apple's refusal to update (note, that's NOT the same as refusing to SUPPORT) its software for certain systems hardly deprives you of a browser. If you considered Safari beta, then why were you using it? Was it good enough to use? If so, is it suddenly broken?


The Mozilla based browsers are much better supported than Safari. Web developers actually code for the Gecko engine. Safari is another story. I was using it because I was trying to do Apple a favor and increase the number of hits that web sites got with Safari as the navigator.useragent.

Since you're playing semantics here, let's talk about update vs support. I expect SUPPORT to include bug fixes, security updates, and the ability to properly support documented STANDARDS like ECMAscript, Java, and the W3C DOM (which Safari doesn't properly do). I expect a product UPDATE to include new functionality.

The 10.3 update has some great new features like Expose and FileVault. Great. I don't need them at this point in time so I choose not to pay for those new features. Safari, from what I can see, doesn't have much in the way of new whizbang features. It's mostly bug fixes and compatibility updates. So why should I pay for all the 10.3 features I don't need to get some bug fixes for the web browser that Apple has been providing to all 10.2 users?

MSIE 6 runs on Windows 98, Me, NT4 SP6a, 2000, and XP. And Apple can't support one previous OS version with Safari?! Hell, they themselves even call it a dot one change (though I'd say there was much more involved). It's not like I'm asking for it to run in Classic.


Go and use Omniweb, or Camino, or Firebird - and leave the lawsuits to the lawyers.

Those are CLASS ACTION lawsuits. That means that users of their products (who probably happily shelled out their hard earned cash believing the marketing spin) are bringing litigation against them. This Safari thing is just one more drop in the bucket. You've got the lawsuit about Mac OS X not running right on older machines, the PowerBook paint problems, the iBook logic board and display problems, the iPod battery problem, the G4 fan problems, etc. And let's not get started on all the Windows users machines that were screwed up by the original iTunes installer. Apple NEEDS to do some better planning, testing, and rollout of their products.

Don't get me wrong, I want Apple and OS X to do well. Hell, I've used Macs since my Mac Plus and I even have a NeXTstation at home. I think their platform is great. But I work in an IT department for a fortune 500 company and this kind of stuff is seen as just plain unacceptable. They're never going to get anywhere with either consumers or CIOs when they do stuff like this.

ebow
Feb 3, 2004, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by garlicboy
I am disheartened that Apple choose to make Safari 1.2 only available to panther users. Has anyone tried to make Safari work with Jaguar? With my G4, I saw no advantage to updating to Panther....I guess this is Apple's leverage

garlicboy

Look back on pages 2 thru 5 of this discussion (somewhere in there, I think). The answer is: it won't work with Jaguar. The reasons are discussed.

I'm not always the best at catching when my questions have already been answered (particularly when a thread gets long), so I mean this as a polite pointer.

johnnyjibbs
Feb 3, 2004, 09:55 AM
One thing though - why is everyone complaining about 1.2 not being Jaguar-compatibile but no-one ever said anything about [Panther-only] 1.1?

Reading some of the points, I can see that maybe it would be too much hassle to support Jaguar, and is not just simply a case of Apple being tight. That said, it fits well with my earlier post that there should be an upgrade path from Jaguar.

fjleon
Feb 3, 2004, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Lancetx
I know. Thankfully Apple doesn't wait 2-3 years or more in between OS upgrades. XP will probably be 5 years old before it gets upgraded. That's one reason why I prefer OS X to Windows (among many others). If that's the price of innovation, then I'm willing to pay for it.

That's a double-edged sword. Some people don't want to spend money updating their OS every 1.5 years.

Win98 is gonna be supported at least until 2006 now. That's a lot!

It's sad that jaguar users are left alone. Win2k did get explorer 6.0

Krizoitz
Feb 3, 2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by kenohki
Web developers actually code for the Gecko engine.

And that is one of the fundemental flaws with web developers then. First they code for IE, now they code for Gecko. Instead they should code for standards.

fartheststar
Feb 3, 2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Matrix9180
So you're telling me that your offices absolutely cannot survive without the latest version of Safari? give me a break. Quit whining!

This thread is about the latest and greatest version of Safari. Everyone's saying how great it is.

Then there are those who think it's amusing to say things like this. It's fixing a new (not quite "up to par") app, that was originally developped on 10.2.

We'd like the updates that make it "up to par", (or close to par) without shelling out the extra $129 US.


I hate it that everytime Apple updates a software the old bugs are just replaced by new ones!

[QUOTE]
Talking about 10.3.2? Since I installed the update all my machines don't work as stable anymore as they used to do. I don't even get a kernel panic. The computers just freeze without any warning. The only thing I can say is that 50% of the freezes happen after waking up from sleep. And no, it's like that on all machines I am using since I updated. Yes, I repaired permissions and I don't have "bad" RAM. I know several other users who reported the same problems.

Apple, there is something called QA... remember?

Exactly why I'm NOT upgrading to Panther. Jaguar is fine in most respects and doesn't break my printer nor my apps.

kenohki
Feb 3, 2004, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by fartheststar

We'd like the updates that make it "up to par", (or close to par) without shelling out the extra $129 US.

Are you kidding me?! $129 for a web browser that works like it should?!

jvaska
Feb 3, 2004, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by kenohki
But I work in an IT department for a fortune 500 company and this kind of stuff is seen as just plain unacceptable. They're never going to get anywhere with either consumers or CIOs when they do stuff like this.

totall ************ detected here...totally...

and purchasing an entire network of computers that have numerous security problems...including inferior operating system software that allows hackers to simply send emails to a user and take down an entire network...

ok, i guess this IS acceptable by any CIO then...

i happen to think you could be out of a job if it weren't for MS Outlook...

whine...whine...whine...

:mad:

Armsreach
Feb 3, 2004, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by acrobat
so far, i'm a big fan of the new Safari. however, there is one thing that i went to check right away when i updated. the website of U2 (u2.com), who is a huge Mac supporter as well as a supporter of the iTMS, does not properly show up. it didn't before, and it doesn't now. all the graphics show up, but the text does not. i don't know if this is a java thing or not, but it's just kinda sad that a group who is and has been so supportive of Apple and the Mac is not supported by the Mac Browser of Choice. besides that, i love Safari and am just waiting for some hardware updates tomorrow! (or the next day, or the next week, or...)

Works absolutely fine for me in Safari 1.1.1 v100.1. The HTML version that is. IF you are having problems with the flash version then it has nothing to do with the web browser if you are seeing the images and not the text since the flash plugin is responsible for playing the site, not the browser itself. Send a bug report to macromedia if that's the case.