Why do PC users hate Macs?

[hob]

EVERYONE seems to hate macs, until they use them. My mum is computer illeterate and hates it, my friends at school seem completely hostile, unless they have an ipod, then they wanna play with my iBook! And even rational open-minded people I know seem to get all facist when they hear of the mac!!

Why is this?!

[ITR 81]

I think it's mostly due to people thinking Mac's can't play games or use most PC software titles.

But Mac gaming is on a rise and most PC software can be now had on the Mac.

Most people are just misinformed or they don't like someone saying their computer is better.

[Mav451]

Well it is a yin-yang thing to put it simple. Coming from a PC user's POV, Mac users are rather religious, heck even as far as being called zealots. They tell PC users that their OS platform is outdated, or that their hardware is inferior to the Mac. In that case, PC user's than feel they are being forced onto something, that the Mac users are coming on as condescending (not good when you are trying to convince someone...usually convincing comes from eye-to-eye level).

On the other hand, Mac users probably feel the same way, but in a different perspective. PC users will (in general) ridicule those with Macs as being less knowledgeable, brainwashed, what have you. This in turn infuriates Mac users, who then retaliate...and the world continues to turn :)

Is that simple enough?

[Mav451]

A more opened question is, why do Mac users hate/ridicule PC users? That is also a good question. Of course, i doubt that will generate good answers on this site :) Oh well.

[hob]

The reason I became a switcher was because of two things:
1)being ridiculed into looking at OS X rather than XP
2)actually USING some eMacs at my school

the guy that ridiculed me was a lifelong zealot, who's dad was the same - people at school who now use the eMacs now just seem to see it as no different to pcs, just with weird noises and easy to use movie editing (we used to use Adobe Premiere - a nightmare for younger students)

I seem to bridge this gap - i know the uses of each system, what it's good at, and what it's not good at. I've been bought up on pcs, but now I feel I can convert people to Macs because they know my history in pc usage!!

Hob

[Makosuke]

An oft asked and never fully answered question, but although I'd rather think it's just paranoia on our part, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Of course, many of us Mac users hate PCs as well, although in my personal experience in most cases it's with good reason. I, for example, spend a significant portion of my workday troubleshooting PCs, so I feel like if I hate Windows, I have ample reason and experience to back up that belief. There are a lot of irrational knee-jerk reactions from Mac users, but I still argue that many, if not most, Windows-hating Mac users spend a significant amount of time using it at work or before they switched, giving their opinion something of a logical foundation.

PC people seem to be touchier for some reason. Those with little computer experience at all, those who fancy themselves power users, and some of those who actually are pros--a lot of people, almost all of which have never used one, just can't seem to stand the thought of a Mac.

I'd have to say that experienced pros who are aware of current Mac developments, even if they're not actual users, seem the least likely to irrationally hate Macs, which would make sense because they can see the benefits of the MacOS, and are familiar with the weaknesses of Windows.

Anyway, I'm just sort of rambling, but I'd be interested to hear if anybody has any real insight into why so many PC people who've never even touched a Mac seem to cringe at the very thought of one.

My best guess is that a lot of people are frustrated with their computing experience, and it would make them feel even worse if there was a better alternative out there, meaning they've been tearing their hair out for nothing. Whether Macs are actually that much easier to deal with or not isn't important. What is is that Mac users generally seem a content bunch who like using their computers, and that'd be annoying to me, too, if I hated mine or routinely got frustrated using it.

Misery loves company, I guess. Either that, or they just don't like the thought of anything different.

[djbahdow01]

When a person is always using one of something whether it be a computer, tv, sports equipment, car, etc. They will say what ever they have is the best. I can say i thought the same thing when WIN XP came out, considering i had it 3 days before release. I have had no problems with it and thought it was the best thing out. All until i tryed a mac running OS 9 in school for graphic design and saw how much faster a G4 400 MHz was fatster than my PIII 700 MHz in photoshop. Then i saw OSX Panther and i was in love. So it all depends on what you start out using, and the persons preference.

[DVW86]

I think that it comes down to this. They don't like being told that they just "wasted" their time and money on an "inferior" product. People don't like being told that Macs are better after they just spent $2,000 for a PC. If someone has invested years of time and software on Windows I can understand why they would hesitate to got to Macs, even if they thought that Macs were better. The sad part is that they take it personally. Most Mac haters have never even used a Mac nor do they realize that much of the technology they use (and brag about) were Apple firsts or Apple invented. By the way, I switched to Mac about a year before they launched the "switch campaign". I still have to use Windows at work and my dislike for Windows is based on experience, not just an emotional prejudice.

[Hodapp]

Please close this thread, NO good will come of it.

[Independence]

Originally posted by io_burn
Please close this thread, NO good will come of it.
That was certainly a nice little contribution to this thread. :rolleyes:

Mav451 sums up my thoughts quite nicely. :)

[mactastic]

Almost all the mac-haters I know are have a bunch of mixed up info and experience for the pre-OSX days. It's really just a small minority of PC users though, most PC users I know have valid reasons for using them. And there are many valid reasons, particularly during the dark days of Motorola. Heck, there's reasons I use a PC daily. I'm much more comfortable in the Mac OS, but that's just a personal preference. There were reasons I used macs back before the Pentium chips came with MMX technology.

Now most of the PC haters I know are frustrated users of Windows. Others are techno-phobes who cling to the mac's ease of use like a life-ring in a stormy sea. Most of the mac user I know are cross-platform users who have a decent working knowledge of Windows.

It's really just a small but vocal minority on both sides who cause all the ruckus over 'who's machine is better'. Which is pointless, 'cuz if it does what you want it to do, who cares about benchmarks and megahertz and such?

[zapp]

For the thread, well, No one likes to be wrong, so on either side of the fence, when you tell them that their computer is inferior, it does provoke the standard response.

Why mac users don't get as mad, well, we know we have the better OS, and hardware, so we don't get as worked up.


Why don't people switch, it costs too much money. And it is an unknown. I gave my Mom my old iBook (G3 800) so she could play with it, and she does like it, maybe she will switch, but she did go out and by a AE base station for her house and networked a printer. She was never able to do that with her old network. But she would never have spent the money for a new computer, AE, adn a base station unless I gave her the laptop. Just my two cents,

[thecow]

In my class in school the only experience most of the people have ever had with macs is the mac lab. The newest mac in the lab is a 500mhz snow crt imac. The highest os is 8.6 and some are still using 7.1. Everyone just assumes that all macs are horible and that this is how macs are today. Than they compare it to the brand new dell lab and try to use that as proof that pc's are better.

[dukemeiser]

Very simple theory:
People fear what they do not understand. This fear leads to aggression.

People didn't understand witches, so fear was invoked and thousands of people were killed for the fear of witchcraft. You can apply this theory to any aspect of history and current life. Thats why elderly people don't conform to new ideas, like computers because they don't understand it; hence fear.

Windows users don't understand Macs, thus they fear them, and even become aggressive about them. Mac users hate PCs because we don't understand them. But in all honesty, does anyone really understand Windows? Maybe that's why people hate to use their own PCs. Macs can be understood, and therefore we have no fear of our computers.

[jefhatfield]

the vast majority of pc users don't care one way or the other...what could us three or four percent of the market pose as a threat to their pc world?

if pc users hate anything, it's windows from time to time:p

[themadchemist]

Different people have different reasons for hating Macs.

I think one interesting phenomenon is the hating of Macs by those who know almost nothing about computers. I have a friend who knows very little about computers but whose reason for choosing the PC over the Mac is because he supposedly likes its hardware customizability, the ability to interchange various parts.

When I pointed out that with the Mac that is probably easier, especially with the G5, he just said that he would stick with his PC. He's come to the point that he doesn't HATE Macs, but I think I know why he still refuses to acknowledge the Mac's superiority in the tasks that he needs a computer to perform.

He, and others with limited computer knowledge, want to feel that they aren't totally unaware (even if they admit that they are). One way to combat their inferiority complex is to have an opinion--any opinion. One great opinion for one to have in order to feel that he is knowledgeable is the opinion that a particular product is terrible. It makes one feel as if he has expert knowledge about a subject, and that he can ridicule, or even simply debate, those who disagree with him. That many PC power and pro users share his opinion is only an additional benefit.

Thus, I think that for many people, dislike of the Mac is an internal issue that they externalize. It has much less to do with the Mac than their own feeling of inexperience when it comes to computers.

I'm not saying that the same couldn't be true of Mac users. However, I feel that when Mac users make stupid arguments, it's more about their zeal for the Mac. Even those who do not know the ins-and-outs of, say, processor design (I only have a very, very rough idea of this, myself) tend to be more knowledgeable, than the PC user that falls into the above category. I don't think that same Mac user acknowledges his own neophytic nature, because his membership in a niche group lends him the feeling of expert knowledge.

I also am not saying that a more experienced PC user does not have a better reason to dislike Macs. If one uses his computer MOSTLY for gaming, then there is a reason to prefer PCs. The same is true for those people who enjoy the process of system software restoration. :D ;)

[Nik_Doof]

Other way round here, i laugh at the PC users. All my friends, once they've seen my PB, have decided that PCs are bad and they all need a Mac.

Tempers only rise when i announce something new to them (like my friend who didnt know i had a iPod and AE).

Soon i will convert all these dark users to the light side :)

[takao]

hm i have no idea why somuch people _hate_ macs
well i didn't liked them all the time by myself

1.elitist-niche group: many people don't want to be in such a group...i mean here in germany/austria i heard those famous words "i never gonna buy a mac" very often by people who have no idea about computers (for whom a mac would be perfect)

2.no retailers here/nomac aware technicans: "if you got a problem....your stuck" properbly very comman thought

(3.horrible prices outside of the US... apple is premium computer in the US but they are platin-diamond-madeofmoonstone priced here ..but thats apple germany's fault ..i mean ibm laptops are cheaper here than in amerika)

4.games....yeah pretty odd but there are many people with children...and children/teenagers like computergames

5.people who have to rely on x86 platform. i'm a computer science student(we use redhat 9.0 for software developmentin java/c++).. to buy 2 computers would have been to much for my budget

6.the lost performance in the "motorola age)
i can can remember the days where we sat in front of a powermac of a friend's dad computer i have know idea what model it was i just know it had a PowerPC 133 and asskickin' 96 mb ram... compared to the other pentium 100 and 16mb machines most people had,it was a monster (compared to my lousy 486dx-2 4mb-ram it was sent by god) they lost their performance somwhere... sorry have no idea where perhaps with the relaese of the pentium 3 (best intel chip since 486 and until now...p4 = lousy)

7.no advertising..never saw a apple ad -> most people don't know that there is a alternative to windows/x86

but i see a light on the horizon ;-) thanks to IBM (the enemy of 1984...pretty ironic) who want their user back...with their new chip releases, and their annoucing of new hardware /supercomputers/patents... it's like a car race on the one side the intel-car with their good start...on the other side the IBM-car with their turbocharger spining up..
how many patents had IBM the last year ? 3500 ? about 10 per day... a lot more than intel and amd together
for me as a very computer interested technican IBM and macosx with the ability to run Unix/Linux software are the 2 things put me back in the "save money to buy a new computer...an apple" mode.. (sadly it will take more than a year from now)

[virividox]

they hate us because we are better than them :)

seriously because people are retarded, and both sides dont get along and get defensive when they are atttacked.

[ewinemiller]

For everyone I know, there's no hatred, just indifference. There is nothing the Mac does that makes it interesting over and above what they do on the PC. It's not even on their radar, they simply don't care.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by ITR 81


But Mac gaming is on a rise and most PC software can be now had on the Mac.



Umm that isn't true there are plenty of titles that are not available for the Mac. And lets be honest the Mac's strong suit is NOT gaming. It would make a great platform for it but the number of titles pales in comparison to the PC.

[SiliconAddict]

Beyond that the other reason PC users have no love lost for Mac users has to due with the stereotype that ALL Mac users are fanatics that worship the ground that Steve Jobs walks on. That they wouldn't consider a PC simply because it’s a PC, and that Mac users are a bunch of stuck up snobbish ***es. Now yes I've met more then a few Mac users that can be slotted into the zealot category but you and I both know that these users are typically few and far between. The problem is this is the stereotype and stereotypes that are engrained are hard to overcome. I'm going to be honest here. Anytime I talk to someone about the fact that I'm going to, most likely, be purchasing a Mac sometime this fall I always feel I need to append that I'm not freakishly in love with the platform and that I think it has qualities that go beyond windows that makes a Mac a, hopefully, a sound investment. It irks me that I have to do that because I've gotten more the a few eye rolls when I've told people I'm getting a Mac and didn't explain myself.
Once a PC user gets beyond the stereotype and considers the OS and the hardware its easier for us to ignore the stereotype. Hence the reason why PC users who go Mac typically don't go back.

[MisterMe]

Originally posted by hob
EVERYONE seems to hate macs, until they use them. My mum is computer illeterate and hates it, my friends at school seem completely hostile, unless they have an ipod, then they wanna play with my iBook! And even rational open-minded people I know seem to get all facist when they hear of the mac!!

Why is this?! I would place the Mac-haters into several categories. In no particular order, here are several:

====
Macs are too easy. Proficiency on the Mac is insufficient to showoff the user's "manhood."

I know everything about [Windows] computers, but I still can't produce a decent Photoshop image, InDesign publication, or Final Cut Pro movie.

I can't produce a decent Photoshop image, InDesign publication, or Final Cut Pro movie. I don't know beans about computers, but Windows gives me an excuse. The Mac unmasks my lack of talent.

With the Mac, even nitwits who don't know motherboards from skateboards think that are experts.

I hate Windows, but I have to use it because my job requires me to use a computer. Mac people carry on as though they enjoy their computers. Something is clearly wrong with them.
=====

I have others, but I have to run.

[pdrayton]

Originally posted by Makosuke
I'd be interested to hear if anybody has any real insight into why so many PC people who've never even touched a Mac seem to cringe at the very thought of one.
Having switched last Fall I can say that from my own experience Apple's long-time customers are its own worst enemy.

Mac fans brag about being "different" and "thinking different". Windows users don't want to be different, they need to "fit in" (have a computer that can easily share files with Windows users and customers. I know, Mac can do this, but Mac fans don't stress this), and they already have to think different because Windows is so God awful un-intuitive.

As a Windows user, when I was finally fed-up with the hassles and ready to consider what Macs offered, I knew exactly what I wanted: Thin, light, full-featured, and able to easily connect to an Apple Display. The only apps I needed to use were Office, Safari and iApps. Mac fans told me to get an iBook (note, not compatible with an Apple Display) because PowerBooks were "overpriced", or they told me to get a G5 because PowerBooks were "underpowered".

An unplanned stop by an Apple Store showed me that Mac fans were wrong. The PowerBook WAS exactly what I wanted. It wasn't underpowered. It wasn't overpriced (actually, it cost the same as a comparable wintel notebook, only it was better quality, smaller, and lighter). As for "thinking different, I realize that OS X is better than Windows because I no longer HAVE to think different.

So, my own opinion is that when Mac fans stop telling Windows users that they need to "think different", stop telling Windows users that Macs are overpriced, stop pushing Windows users to buy something that doesn't fit their needs, then Windows users will begin to think that Mac fans are worth listening to.

Should Steve Job be able to strengthen Apple's position in the marketplace, it will be at the expense of Mac fanatics. It's time for Mac fans to realize that the world doesn't revolve around them, because it doesn't.

[kristo]

OK, I have lurked here a while, but anyways,

I am both a PC and a Mac user and yeah, the right tool for the right job. I also have a xbox to play games on (modded so it also acts as my movie player mostly) and yeah, i think i know a thing or two about computers (I have been using them since i was 8 and I am 25 now) and yeah, macs are good if you just want to USE it, don't want hassle. I use it at work alot now (I also have a dell but it sits at home) and i like it....i'm a network engineer so all i need it for is ssh and email.

now why would pc users hate mac users? I dont think they do. I think its kinda like teasing your sister, she reacts soooo well. I mean, the mac isnt exactly in a dominante market position really (well, not in areas most people care about) and so yeah, being a pc user and taunting a mac user can be fun, mainly cause they take it so bad.

and reading this thread doesnt disprove that.

I mean, i like using my powerbook, does all I could ask of it, its light (anyone who says a 15inch powerbook is too heavy has been eating to many doritos and not getting a decent amount of exercise) and yeah, it just works.

so i dont really think any pc user hates a mac user, that would be downright stupid (and vice versa), i think its a bit of ego on the mac users side (they hate us cause we are better) and a bit of provocation from the pc camp (heh, watch me get those idiots going)

oh and by the way, i also have linux on this thing (gentoo) and its far smoother to use than OSX (heh)

[Hodapp]

Originally posted by kristo
oh and by the way, i also have linux on this thing (gentoo) and its far smoother to use than OSX (heh)

Shh don't say that too loud... ignorance is bliss. :cool:

[dwishbone]

its called a "comfort zone".
most pc users hate windows and (think) they hate the mac. have you ever actually heard anyone say how much they enjoy windows? how cool its apps are? ever heard someone just say "wow" or even be speechless? no.
pc users are comportable with their situation and they dont want to change. its sort of akin to people staying in bad relationships. they dont want to go through the trouble of learning something else and dont want to take a risk. devil you know better than the devil you dont know sort of thing.
most people i know that i have actually convinced to sit down with a mac with an objective mind have loved it...hands down. now we just have to make the rest of the world "uncomfortable".

[revenuee]

Using a Mac for the last 4 years had made me stupid ...

my parents are on a PC and when they ask me how to fix it ... i usually don't know because i haven't had to solve a technical problem since the day i got my mac.

i've heard people ague against the mac being to easy to use -- this i will never understand, i mean do these people have so little to do with their time that they need a problem to keep them occupied. In the last two weeks i spend more time trying to fix my parents computer then they spent working on it.

my mom asked me what are you doing different then me that your computer doesn't break ... my response ... i run a mac.


one guy argued about crappy tech support from apple ... well my response to these kind of arguments are: thats because Macs rearly have problems, you have to be doing something really, really stupid in order for the thing to break. And second ... any company that needs a really good costumer service support line. is doing something wrong if they have so many calls that the people have to be expertly trained in fixing things ... well if they are know issues why not fix them before sending them out. DUH

[Les Kern]

Originally posted by io_burn
Please close this thread, NO good will come of it.

True... been hashed over.... so I go again.
Several camps:
"It's not what I use" -because they think they are right.
"It's not what everyone uses" -they are misinformed.
"They can't DO anything" -the last Mac they used was an LCII.

In all I dismiss them out of hand. Being an ex-Mac zeolot, I don't have time for that any more, so I never jump into the fray.
This is the best time to look at the Mac as an alternative. For those not willing to look, so what?

[Fukui]

I think, the PC users that do hate macs, most don't even really care either way, hate it because of probably two reasons: one is they have a bad experience with pre-OS X (not two mouse button support ect) and "its what everyone else does." Its that simple really.

I think though, things like OS X, beautiful systems, G5 and all the cool software, oh and the iPod have/are helping apples image change from "your dorky granpa's" old computer to something "cool." Things like this take time, a lot of time, but if things stay the way they are, and apple doesn't become some wierd dorky (ducking flames ;)) computer company again (steve leaves), things should be fine.

[ebow]

Originally posted by dukemeiser
Very simple theory:
People fear what they do not understand. This fear leads to aggression.

People didn't understand witches, so fear was invoked and thousands of people were killed for the fear of witchcraft. You can apply this theory to any aspect of history and current life. Thats why elderly people don't conform to new ideas, like computers because they don't understand it; hence fear.

Windows users don't understand Macs, thus they fear them, and even become aggressive about them. Mac users hate PCs because we don't understand them. But in all honesty, does anyone really understand Windows? Maybe that's why people hate to use their own PCs. Macs can be understood, and therefore we have no fear of our computers.

My response was going to be right along these lines: ignorance, and the bandwagon effect.

In high school I was a Mac-basher, largely out of ignorance. I figured if there wasn't a DOS-like command line behind the scenes, it couldn't be much of a serious computer, now could it? It did help that our Macs were all LC II's (one LC III) and the software was limited to ClarisWorks, ThinkPascal, and some other basics (this was 1994-1996). I was still using WordPerfect 5.1 at home (remember that lovely blue screen?) and thought it was far more serious, because it made use of the function keys (ooh, ahh).

On one of the school's few PowerMacs, I played around and discovered that you could have it speak out SimpleText files. So I typed up some self-demeaning expressions, and made the Mac read them out (ex: "I wish I was a real computer..."). Funny enough, while that PowerMac could do this out of the box, my parents' home PC with *added* sound card couldn't do it. Hell, I don't know of any wintel computer today that can do that out of the box.

I grudgingly got a Mac for college, and by sophomore year had completely flipped on the issue.

So the point of all this rambling is... ignorance leads to dismissal of Macs. Which can be expressed in a juvenile manner as "I hate Macs" (or MACs ;) ).

I'll be quiet now.

[Powerbook G5]

I was a PC power user and would bash Macs with my friends any chance I got. I never sat down in front of one but just being on the Windows side, it was standard practice to want to kick a Mac. That changed, however, after using a Wallstreet PowerBook with OS 8.6 for about 5 minutes at CompUSA, then going to Apple's website and seeing the insanely cool B&W G3 that was way beyond anything that PCs had. After that, I saved up and bought a 400 MHz Lombard PowerBook and the rest is histroy.

[MattG]

Because they're ignorant. That's all there is to it. I work with a bunch of them, so I know what it's like. Oh, and I used to be one of them until I saw the light at the end of the tunnel.

[janey]

like its been said on both the MacRumors and Overclockers.com forums (regarding the "PC'd G5"), once you reach the higher echelons of computer users, they tend to bash each other's platforms less and less as they realize the pros and cons of both the architecture and the platform, etc.
Those bashers are nothing more than uninformed and biased people who don't know what they're talking about.
It depends on what you do, not what you are using to do it.

[Mav451]

Sometimes i think i might wanna try a Mac, but then i consider the money involved at this point, as a college student, and the fact is i can't afford it at this point.

The only Mac we have at my university is a poor old G3 in the Chemistry library...running 9.2 lol

I have a funny feeling that there are plenty G5's in the Comp Sci building. Too bad i'm not a Comp Sci major so i cannot even scan into the labs! (be it Linux or Mac ones)...

I could see into the Linux lab, they were using your generic silver Antec "Alienware of 01" cases.

The more i think about it, maybe its simply a time/money/personal commitment. Right now, i don't know if i have time to mess around on a Mac to learn to use it. Yeah, in time (4-6 months), i'll be messing around in terminal the same way i mess around the registry/bios. Problem is Unix kinda scares me b/c it is more of a "comp sci majors" language. Will i be able to turn into a power user? Sure, but it's gonna take time, but more importantly money. No way i'm getting a G4 now with the G5's out, but who has 1700 or even 2,000 dollars to spend when i have my grades to take of first? Maybe i'll try it out in the summer.

[3ric]

I like how Steve Jobs put it -- Apple's market share is bigger than BMW's or Daimler's and what's wrong with being BMW?

I think the root of the "hatred" if you can call it that, is ignorance. And I don't think it's "PC users" that have a problem. Rather it's "Windows users." I know, because I used to be one.

Hi, may name is 3ric and I am a recovering Windows user.

("Hi 3ric!")

Anyway...

I rode the Wintel platform all through the 90's, and any time the subject of the Mac came up, I basically laughed. My experience was limited to a few half-hearted goes at Dark Castle on a circa 1986 Mac (you know, the shoebox form factor). When I really used a computer (for writing in college) it was on the old IBM XT, which was pretty much all that was available in them days, unless you were willing to tread into VAX territory. (Being a biology major, I wasn't.)

Anyway, my job led me to develop Windows-centric skills. You know the story, most people are hard pressed to do much with Windows so some kind of "expert" is needed to do handholding. During this time I had 0 experience with Macs. When the subject came up, I always opined that the platform was near death and a bad investment. (And, you know if Amelio et al were still around...) I read Dvorak, built my own PCs from emerging computer shows, and so on. Most notable, though, is my ignorance of Macs. You couldn't "get under the hood" -- there was no CLI. Thus, this wasn't a "real" computer. I think it was partly an ego thing.

A buddy of mine, a longtime Machead, convinced me to try it out, saying if I didn't like it I could return it within the 30-day period. (This was 1999.) So off I went to buy a new B/W G3. A couple weeks later Apple announced the G4. I ordered one the next day, returned my G3, and the rest is history.

Bottom line, it's not hatred. It's ignorance. I find Linux users (arguably "PC users" themselves) to be more benign to the Mac. That's one reason why I said it's not PC users with the problem -- it's Windows users. Also, the Mac is a PC, strictly speaking.

(Note: I still use an old Windows box to check how my web pages look on that platform. So at least Windows is good for something!)

[Jookbox]

hahaha! while you all bash each other, ill just sit back and use both platforms to my advantage. if your'e a web designer, i'll tell you right now you're limiting yourself if you just use one platform for all your tasks.

[Jookbox]

Originally posted by dukemeiser
Very simple theory:

Windows users don't understand Macs, thus they fear them, and even become aggressive about them. Mac users hate PCs because we don't understand them. But in all honesty, does anyone really understand Windows? Maybe that's why people hate to use their own PCs. Macs can be understood, and therefore we have no fear of our computers.

i wish you and people that make general statements like this would elaborate and use examples, but i know you wont.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by 3ric
I like how Steve Jobs put it -- Apple's market share is bigger than BMW's or Daimler's and what's wrong with being BMW?






that's bs...apple used to be bigger than the big three in detroit times two and now 95 percent of people use microsoft windows...we failed for domination but we still have the better os and for me that's all that matters

[Fukui]

Originally posted by Mav451
Sometimes i think i might wanna try a Mac, but then i consider the money involved at this point, as a college student, and the fact is i can't afford it at this point.

The only Mac we have at my university is a poor old G3 in the Chemistry library...running 9.2 lol

I have a funny feeling that there are plenty G5's in the Comp Sci building. Too bad i'm not a Comp Sci major so i cannot even scan into the labs! (be it Linux or Mac ones)...

I could see into the Linux lab, they were using your generic silver Antec "Alienware of 01" cases.

The more i think about it, maybe its simply a time/money/personal commitment. Right now, i don't know if i have time to mess around on a Mac to learn to use it. Yeah, in time (4-6 months), i'll be messing around in terminal the same way i mess around the registry/bios. Problem is Unix kinda scares me b/c it is more of a "comp sci majors" language. Will i be able to turn into a power user? Sure, but it's gonna take time, but more importantly money. No way i'm getting a G4 now with the G5's out, but who has 1700 or even 2,000 dollars to spend when i have my grades to take of first? Maybe i'll try it out in the summer.
I agree, except that there are someplaces (Microcenter of al places!) you can get iBooks for 699 or even a G5 w/superdrive for 1599, even a 17-inch iMac w/superdrive for....1299...not bad if you ask me...!

[Mineral]

They can't afford one.

[revenuee]

Originally posted by Mineral
They can't afford one.

thats a pretty good reason

[Powerbook G5]

Macs aren't that much more expensive than a comparably high quality PC, though.

[Gambuchi]

I find it totally mind-blowing that we've spent this much time and wasted so many good letters applauding / bashing each others computer system of choice. Who reallllly cares? What difference does it really make in the overall scheme of things. We each use the platform that we have come to love and that should be end of story.
Been there, done that and owned both...

Can't we all just "Get along".:)

[revenuee]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Macs aren't that much more expensive than a comparably high quality PC, though.



not many people see it that way

my dad got laptop (some generic name) and comes in touting it all proud that he payed like 600 or 700 CND for it ... and looks at me like a crazy person when i tell him to spend the 1500$ on a 12inch iBook... that'll do all the things he wants without the hassle

mind you his laptop is only used for email and banking and exel and the software package his clinic runs on ... but he's really trying to get into digital editing ... and i know he has aspirations to editing our old vacation videos ...

and the iBook can handle that ... his laptop ... i tried and failed

[Spock]

Windows is the devil.

[warcraftmaster]

Originally posted by io_burn
Please close this thread, NO good will come of it.


nope i just got a good idea for a progarm. but i dont know how to use xcode. is they any website? that can tell a thing or two on xcode

[mms]

Two reasons:
1. fear of the unknown - They're afraid of the Mac because they don't understand it.
2. fitting in with the crowd - "Everybody uses Windows" Said by lemmings who can't "Think Different"
3. they're jealous :D

[kaizer]

Well, I still consider myself a recent switcher... Haven't celebrate my 1st anniversary with my beloved iBook G3;)

My PC days on Win98:mad: and it's bloody unstable. Probably due to my habit in computing. I like to install and uninstall new software... just to try it out and the result is 'Blue Screen Of Death'.

That's why I love Mac. No corrupted DLL files to worry about. Not to mention heaps of security patches and viruses:p

Frankly I still couldn't see myself buying a desktop Mac.

Reason? It's expensive. Coz in asia, the price of clone computers is just too cheap compared to CBU Macs.

A P4 2G, 512Mb, 15 inch LCD cost round USD500 or so. Just can't justify to splurge thousands for a Mac, altough I'd love iMacs. That's reality for me.

Mac portables is just so cool, especially the sleep function! I do presentation on the go and I don't need to boot up and wait for eternity.

Just my 0.02 Euros...:p

Oh yeah, my boss used to laugh at me for sticking out like a sore thumb (he's a portable PC user). Claiming non compatibility with the business world and such...

I get the last laugh that day, coz the whole office network is down with virus infection (dunno what it's called) and I'm the last man standing... Err, I mean typing. If you know what I mean;)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Macs aren't that much more expensive than a comparably high quality PC, though.

a mac is not that much more expensive when you consider the time and money saved with repair bills...that's why i am a pc tech and tutor

i could never make it as a mac tech/tutor...they don't break down nearly as often, there are 19 times fewer macs, people don't need that much tutoring on the mac if they are computer newbies since the mac os is far more intuitive and easy to use, and the software for macs works much better and with fewer problems than windows and that could either be 1) the better mac os, and/or 2) less emphasis on profit around the mac world in general and more liklihood for the software company to get it right the first time

but for someone who knows nothing about computers, the pc with its initially lower price tag ($799 laptops and $399 dollar desktops) appear to be the much better deal and the pcs offer more software off the bat and more ram

and even if all things were fair and prices were exactly the same on desktops and laptops, the pc software titles right off the shelf at office depot, office max, staples, compusa, and other major places are everywhere...one has to search hard to find mac stuff at those places

[Fukui]

Originally posted by kaizer
Reason? It's expensive. Coz in asia, the price of clone computers is just too cheap compared to CBU Macs.

A P4 2G, 512Mb, 15 inch LCD cost round USD500 or so. Just can't justify to splurge thousands for a Mac, altough I'd love iMacs. That's reality for me.

Yea, I know what you mean. When I was in Taiwan, all I saw were very inexpensive "home made" boxes that are NOT BRAND NAME. Its very very difficult for anyone big company to compete in this market because (IMHO) people are conditioned to think of PC's as inexpensive tools and not luxury items. If apple wanted bigger market share, they'd have to have an expandable inexpensive tower or Mini-tower system for under 700 US and below....if only we had a steve jobs for every region....:)

[Mav451]

I think you guys misunderstand me when I say it is too expensive.

I built my computer for only 500 dollars. And is it downright close to the performance levels of factory overclocked machines from Alienware/Falconwest.

Can I build a Mac together for 500 dollars and come close to the top performing model? Nope.

It is b/c i build my own computers that i base everything entirely on the the price/performance ratio. If there were a "Newegg for Macs" site, I would definitely give this a try. People also factor in the repair cost, but for me that has only been a small amount of time (nearly 1/10 of the time i spent working on my 98 box). With the time i spend personally fixing it, means i KNOW how my system works (again, saving more from not taking into a local BB or Compusa where they charge hundreds for not doing much)--why not learn it for yourself so not only will you know how to fix it, but you can also help your friends/relatives/etc.?

...so that is also not a factor for me personally.

As an AMD user, i guess I've been spoiled with a ridiculous performance/price ratio for years now. I bought the 1600+ Athlon Palomino at 56 bucks. The current 2100+ at 87bucks. As you can see, i like having the ability to change processors at will, in regard to the changing market prices on these CPUs.

I wish there was an easier way for me to try out OSX without buying an "everything built already, add 100%-150% premium price for the Apple name".

If an Opteron 244 (dual 1.8ghz Cpus) only costs $440 rite now, the mobo an additional $150, the Apple equivalent should be alot closer to 1200 (HD/video card/ram add to around 500; OS? 100-150bucks? a guess), not the current $1700 price tag.

I am betting if people could purchase the mobo/cpu/video card separately, these costs would become cheaper.

Heck, imagine if Asus/Abit/(insert third top mobo maker) were competing for Mac boards marketshare! This is not the case however :(. There is only one mobo maker in Apple's lineup and Apple controls that by giving you a limited 3-model based systemcally. Thus there can be realistically no "Newegg for Macs", and thus, premium "Intel-like" prices for their product line.

I guess my dream for a "NewEgg for Mac" may never come true...maybe it is just the pot at the end of the rainbow.

[Rower_CPU]

Please list the parts you got and their prices.

I've built plenty of PCs and $500 bucks for a system comparable to those of Alienware/Falconwest is not do-able without having some parts ahead of time. And even then, it's not easy to do.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Mav451
I think you guys misunderstand me when I say it is too expensive.

I built my computer for only 500 dollars. And is it downright close to the performance levels of factory overclocked machines from Alienware/Falconwest.

Can I build a Mac together for 500 dollars and come close to the top performing model? Nope.

It is b/c i build my own computers that i base everything entirely on the the price/performance ratio. If there were a "Newegg for Macs" site, I would definitely give this a try. People also factor in the repair cost, but for me that has only been a small amount of time (nearly 1/10 of the time i spent working on my 98 box). With the time i spend personally fixing it, means i KNOW how my system works (again, saving more from not taking into a local BB or Compusa where they charge hundreds for not doing much)--why not learn it for yourself so not only will you know how to fix it, but you can also help your friends/relatives/etc.?

...so that is also not a factor for me personally.

As an AMD user, i guess I've been spoiled with a ridiculous performance/price ratio for years now. I bought the 1600+ Athlon Palomino at 56 bucks. The current 2100+ at 87bucks. As you can see, i like having the ability to change processors at will, in regard to the changing market prices on these CPUs.

I wish there was an easier way for me to try out OSX without buying an "everything built already, add 100%-150% premium price for the Apple name".

If an Opteron 244 (dual 1.8ghz Cpus) only costs $440 rite now, the mobo an additional $150, the Apple equivalent should be alot closer to 1200 (HD/video card/ram add to around 500; OS? 100-150bucks? a guess), not the current $1700 price tag.

I am betting if people could purchase the mobo/cpu/video card separately, these costs would become cheaper.

Heck, imagine if Asus/Abit/(insert third top mobo maker) were competing for Mac boards marketshare! This is not the case however :(. There is only one mobo maker in Apple's lineup and Apple controls that by giving you a limited 3-model based systemcally. Thus there can be realistically no "Newegg for Macs", and thus, premium "Intel-like" prices for their product line.

I guess my dream for a "NewEgg for Mac" may never come true...maybe it is just the pot at the end of the rainbow.

as a pc tech, i understand your point of view

building machines is not a bargain anymore where i live (silicon valley) because you can get a great machine for gaming, office, or whatever very cheap right off the shelf already built by a computer store or from a major company on sale for as low as 299 to 349 usd

with 2600+ pc related companies in a five county region, the prices of computers, fully assembled, just makes it impossible to build a machine cheaper than a major company, and many are here, that can buy parts by the thousands and they get amazing volume discounts so they can build a machine cheaper than one can get if they bought the parts individually as a regular person

many of these computers don't even leave the region and i heard taiwan was also a place where high quality fully assembled machines could be had for very cheap...when i see what people in the rest of the country have to pay for pc boxes, i am shocked...i guess i am spoiled

some pc techs and hobbyists here still build a machine just for kicks and no matter what combination you can dream up, there is a store that has that very machine built way cheaper than you can build one

sometimes i wish i could buy 10,000 pentium 4s, 10,000 motherboards, tens of thousands of memory sticks, and buy windows at the $40 dollar (secret) industry volume price...oops, now i am in trouble ;)...and finally have a quality staff put one together and see how cheap i can build a good box for and charge for it

[laserbeahm]

Windows users who hate Macs do it out of ignorance. Most of the time they hate Macs simply because the ones they had in their computer lab at school were outdated. How many of us went to a school that still used Mac 128s 10 years out of date?

When they compare a pre-OS 8 Mac that they use at school to their $499 Dell at home, and combine it with their preconceptions that Macs are very expensive, they feel that they got the better deal and that anyone who uses a Mac must not be too smart.

A lot of them are just stubborn. They hate to take the time to learn something new. Oh well, it's their loss.

[Fukui]

Originally posted by Mav451
I think you guys misunderstand me when I say it is too expensive.

I built my computer for only 500 dollars. And is it downright close to the performance levels of factory overclocked machines from Alienware/Falconwest.

Can I build a Mac together for 500 dollars and come close to the top performing model? Nope.

It is b/c i build my own computers that i base everything entirely on the the price/performance ratio. If there were a "Newegg for Macs" site, I would definitely give this a try. People also factor in the repair cost, but for me that has only been a small amount of time (nearly 1/10 of the time i spent working on my 98 box). With the time i spend personally fixing it, means i KNOW how my system works (again, saving more from not taking into a local BB or Compusa where they charge hundreds for not doing much)--why not learn it for yourself so not only will you know how to fix it, but you can also help your friends/relatives/etc.?

...so that is also not a factor for me personally.

As an AMD user, i guess I've been spoiled with a ridiculous performance/price ratio for years now. I bought the 1600+ Athlon Palomino at 56 bucks. The current 2100+ at 87bucks. As you can see, i like having the ability to change processors at will, in regard to the changing market prices on these CPUs.

I wish there was an easier way for me to try out OSX without buying an "everything built already, add 100%-150% premium price for the Apple name".

If an Opteron 244 (dual 1.8ghz Cpus) only costs $440 rite now, the mobo an additional $150, the Apple equivalent should be alot closer to 1200 (HD/video card/ram add to around 500; OS? 100-150bucks? a guess), not the current $1700 price tag.

I am betting if people could purchase the mobo/cpu/video card separately, these costs would become cheaper.

Heck, imagine if Asus/Abit/(insert third top mobo maker) were competing for Mac boards marketshare! This is not the case however :(. There is only one mobo maker in Apple's lineup and Apple controls that by giving you a limited 3-model based systemcally. Thus there can be realistically no "Newegg for Macs", and thus, premium "Intel-like" prices for their product line.

I guess my dream for a "NewEgg for Mac" may never come true...maybe it is just the pot at the end of the rainbow.
Well, thats true, and there are different markets for different people. Companies like apple, and even HP/Dell cannot match the price advantage that someone who assembles all the parts themselves and gets it all working from the same sources they do...and you don't have to worry about profits!! It think it wold be very interesting if apple let people buy MBs and CPUs from them...I think in business who want to have thier IT dept repair thier machines ect, this would be very good.

TBO though, I think that the majority of users out there say around 90% don't either have the time or patience to put together their own computer, they just want something that works...for myself, I would love, absolutely love to buy a 17 iMac or 20 iMac, but for me, it would have to have some little bit more expandability or or be a 2GHZ+ G5. If I'm gonna buy something that I can't mess around with much, it has to be THE BEST. But again, for the average consumer, 1.4 GHZ 512MB Ram anything is just about as good as anyone would need...thats why the PC business is not "growing" anymore.

I can guarentee you though, someday when PC's are fast enough, they'll all be some kind of appliance that is so easy to set up and just "turn it on" like an iMac...I mean, how many people complain that thier TV or DVD player is not expandable and refuse to buy it?

[Mav451]

Hehe, well where to start:

(considering prices have dropped since i bought them in March 2003, keep that in mind)...

Ok **i already had my 17" Nec FE791SB Aperture Grille Flat screen** (so that's $176 on top :) )

**my 200gig has been added recently (also a very recent $218 investment, courtesy Newegg again...man I'm getting pretty predictably aren't i)

Also, Rower, i'm referring to systems they had last year around March (no Athlon 64's or Opteron systems, only the early Bartons).

With that aside here goes:
(directly from Newegg receipt, no holds barred)

11-125-210 CASE CHEF|AX-01BLD SPX2 U2F BLUE 0W
$69.00

13-131-435 MB NFORCE2 A7N8X-UAY ASUS RTL
$119.99
For Asus Tech Support, Please Call 502-995-0883 or http://helpdesk.asus.com/

17-103-908 POWER SUPPLY ANTEC TRUE430 ATX RTL
$79.99

19-103-370 CPU AMD|2100+ 1.73 ATHLONXP TBRED%
$87.00
For Retail AMD processor, please call 408 749-3060 for service after first 30 days. For OEM AMD processor, newegg.com will service for 30 days only. Please verify the Processor matches your order Prior To installation. IMPORTANT: Always pack your CPU well for return. Newegg.com will refuse your RMA if we received it as DAMAGED!

22-144-122 HD 80GB|WD 7200RPM 8MB WD800JB%
$99.50
This item is serviced by the Western Digital. Please call 800 832 4778 for service.

35-108-017 CPU FAN AMD/INT|MCXC370-BC SWIFT RT
$29.00

Subtotal
$484.48
Tax

$0.00
Shipping and Handling charge

$15.99
Amount Paid

$500.4

Crucial Ram was from Crucial.com directly, at the time $42/stick for 256MB PC2700 Ram, 2 for a total of $84.

To sum it up (disregard my current sig, below i am posting the original setup from March 2003):

CPU: 2100+ [87]
Mobo: A7N8X [119]
Case: AX-01BLD Antec case with 2 fans [69]
Memory: 2 x 256 PC2700 [84]
PSU: Antec Tru430 [79]
HD: WD80Gig [99.50]
CPU Heatsink: Swifty 370C [29]

Transplants:
*SBLive (don't know price from 5 years ago, i guess anywhere from 10-25 in OEM markets in March)
*ATi Radeon 8500 (a steal @ 87 bucks in summer 2002)
*2 fans from old AMD tbird case (i guess 5 bucks? These are extreme generics haha).
*17" Monitor valued @ 176 in summer 2002.

500.49 NewEgg order
+ 84 Crucial ram
+ (5 + 17 + 87 = 109 + 176 monitor)
= $869

You're right. Without my old transplants (worth nearly 300 dollars), I would actually be paying 584 dollars

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Fukui
Well, thats true, and there are different markets for different people. Companies like apple, and even HP/Dell cannot match the price advantage that someone who assembles all the parts themselves and gets it all working from the same sources they do...and you don't have to worry about profits!!

dude, come over to silicon valley, and see the companies in action...there is no way one person can build from the same sources at the same prices ;)

you have to buy by the 10,000s (bulk quantity) to get the real volume discounts and even with profit figured in, they beat what a single user paying single user prices can garner as a discount

i have seen pc techies/enthusiasts from other areas come here, buy up machines, and return to their region or state and resell them for a tidy profit

there are so many connections here that it's incredible...in any regular computer class, half the students are connected with major computer comapnies and most have access to parts and gear at great prices...but with even the connections i have had in the last five years as a tech and dot.com person, i cannot build a compaq p4 for under $500 bucks from parts i can get, nvidia or ati card, 256 or 512 ddr, etc like i can find in many stores here

the companies like dell, toshiba, hp, and others have pc users by the balls because they get everything, including software, for such low, low discount volume prices that it does not make sense to try and build your own with a goal of saving money

of course, i am talking about where i live near san jose...and i realize that in some other areas, it still may be cheaper to build a single box from scratch...but due to the overflow of gear, technicians, and everything computer, the major glut of stuff leads to super cheap pc boxes fully assembled

[jefhatfield]

what i am trying to say is that pc users who use the argument that pcs are better than macs because one can build one super cheap is using an old argument

the best pc to buy dollar for dollar is one from a major company and now, quality control is at its best in the pc world

what a pc apoligist should say is that major company pcs are cheaper than macs and thus the better deal

forget about customization, expansion, and other arguments which don't hold that much water, it really is safe to say, dollar for dollar, your compaqs, dells, and hps are quality machines for much less than a mac

[Fabrix2003]

To be honest wityh all i was a Windows Xp User now have sold my P4 Tower and 2 flatscreens and have been using a mac for 3 years now and a successful designer. Powerbook 17incher is great fun!.

I would choose Efficientcy over Price due to it bein stable/smooth and a great piece of construction.

oh and one thing i dont get is the (not responding) message everytime on a mac
great deep joy :)

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Macs aren't that much more expensive than a comparably high quality PC, though.


They are when you add the $300+ Apple care. Most Windows based systems provide a 3 year warrantee out of the box. Then you add a monitor ,which for many Windows base systems is included in the price, And its easily $500+/- more for a comparably equipped Mac.
I'm not talking the low end eMacs and iMacs since performance wise most current AMD based chips blow them out of the water. I'm talking a higher end PowerMac which when people do comparisons of PCs and Macs its always with the PowerMacs. You never seen any comparisons with the i and e series against budget to midrange systems. If you want to do an apples to apples comparison, no pun intended. It needs to be on a systems that really is comparable and that's the PowerMac line of computers.

[maclamb]

A couple of points:
If an Opteron 244 (dual 1.8ghz Cpus) only costs $440 rite now, the mobo an additional $150, the Apple equivalent should be alot closer to 1200 (HD/video card/ram add to around 500; OS? 100-150bucks? a guess), not the current $1700 price tag.

Is forgetting about the $200+ for the XP software license + other apple software (ilfe) that comes with it

Most Dell systems charge extra for the 3 year warranty.



Why do PC users hate macs? ignorance mostly.
But the lack of a Backspace key on the laptop was a show stopper for my Mom when I bought her a Wallstreet for christmas - I went ahead and used it then sold it on ebay and upgrade to an iBook. I will say I don't like the missing backsapce on the "default" keyboar d- my Macally has a backspace keybaord I use w/ the laptop/desktop

[Powerbook G5]

The delete key works just like backspace did on my PCs, though.

[mikepctp]

I have both and use each one for different things.

I found the PC pales in comparison to the Mac for "real" photo work.

Being in the Graphic biz for 27 years, I have found the PC has just begun to get a "real" foothold in our world but usually not for the fine stuff; mostly for number crunching or non-gui functions.

I am constantly "fixing" the PC's somehow and the Macs just keep plugging away. I use computers to make money, not friends.

A computer is a tool for the masses and as neccesary as cars are in our western world. One can buy the car that always breaks or one can buy the reliable one that sees the shop rarely. If you make your living with a car, which one would you choose?
A PC user can juice up his box and customize it in a similar fashion to the 'kids' lowering their cars, buying NOS and juice-can exhausts, then go ripping around town killing each other due to lack of driving skill. I grew up in an era whose credo remains dear to me: "there is no substitute for cubic inches."

The "Fast and the Furious" just happens to be a G5 right out of the factory with a warranty in full, kinda like the 1969 Daytona Charger (notice the wing!): 200 mph all day long at 3000 rpm with a 5800 rpm redline.

MP

[jefhatfield]

the only pc company that i have heard of that has some of its models offer a three year warranty out of the box is ibm

for any other company, the extra warranty time costs extra money

applecare is an up and down type of experience for most people...several years ago, it was a great thing because apple was more expedient about fixing broken gear but today they have an awful reputation for supporting their hardware

as for call in support, they are still very good and are among the best in the industry

for apple to win over more converts, they need to make sure applecare is rock solid and not be full of horror stories...many of which make it to this website...if apple needs to replace a broken piece of gear, they shouldn't replace it with someone else's problem which is usually a refurbished machine with major issues on it

the pc world does this type of thing a lot...skimping...in other areas

being a pc tech and computer salesman before that and working at a well known high tech company before that, i can say that the computer companies play favorites with their customers

when an individual person wants to buy a motherboard, network card, or ram, they may be buying a new piece of gear in the new box or a used or refurbished piece of gear in a new box...all companies have temps with shrinkwrap machines and they dress up old, broken, and used stuff for the individual customers

it's only the corporate clients who buy in bulk who get new gear in new boxes all of the time

this practice of passing off old and used gear as new is unaccaptable but for some reason the pc industry has taken it on itself as an accepted practice...i remember my first high tech job at (company name deleted) and when i saw this practice and other really sloppy behavior, i was shocked...i didn't know what a shrinkwrap machine was at the time and now when i see any so called new product, i know how easy it is to just recycle old and problem stuff and use the company's well known name (they all do) to make the customer have confidence in the product...plus the company knows that many people won't notice the difference and if they do, they won't pursue it

in the process, which i really think stinks, companies make millions off of kicking around many of its customers, especially individuals like you and me

but back to applecare...i think the pressure for apple to lower its prices on its gear...and it has done so greatly over the last few years...makes them sloppy on their hardware support replacing broken gear with other broken gear...they are cutting corners in this section of their business and it is really showing

having been an apple warranty technician, i won't purchase applecare until they get their act together on this portion of their care...but again, that being said, they still have excellent telephone support for helping people through learning mac os and for some people, that makes applecare worth every penny

i do like the idea of apple stores having a genius bar...some independent apple stores used to have snotty employees get so upset when they got asked questions because they perceived themselves as being too busy to answer questions or what they might think as stupid questions

apple's stores take on the philosophy of applecare's phone support and they bend over backwards to answer questions and use patience and understanding with the customer

i hate to say this, but apple is what i would consider the second best company when dealing with its people face to face or over the phone...don't get me wrong, apple is excellent at person to person relations

the best company i have ever dealt with person to person or through phone or email is microsoft...hehe...but on some level i think most people in microsoft know that they make somewhat inferior stuff and that they need to make up for it in some way to retain industry leadership

i often gripe about apple's prices compared to the pc world, but i would be fine if macs cost more than pcs if apple would put their focus on hardware support and not dallying around with replacing gear when warranted

being a fan and user of apple gear since the 70s, i had always wanted apple inc to be a complete all around great company but it was always one issue or another where they fell short and eveybody seemed to know it...apple needs to make their organization as strong as their great operating systems and industrial hardware design, and then they can hope for a larger market share

that being said, if apple were perfect, nice to deal with, and much cheaper, there would still be pc users out there who hated apple inc for no reason

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by mikepctp
I have both and use each one for different things.

I found the PC pales in comparison to the Mac for "real" photo work.

Being in the Graphic biz for 27 years, I have found the PC has just begun to get a "real" foothold in our world but usually not for the fine stuff; mostly for number crunching or non-gui functions.


in the latter part of your 27 years, wouldn't you say that the pc has at least caught up some in the graphics areas?

besides the macs i have at home, i have two pcs...one is a box from 96 with a pentium running windows nt and know enough not to ever try and use that for a graphics machine...so over the years i used it just for the most basic tasks

my other pc is a pentium II class machine running windows 98 and while i would not try and do much in the way of graphics on it, it's still a huge improvement graphically over the pentium 1 with windows nt

wouldn't a pc using windows xp (taking the stability of nt and the graphics capability of 98) be good, with let's say a pentium 4 chip and lots of ram, to be used with photoshop, illustrator, flash, etc?

...and in the last two years or so, would it be ok to use such a pc to make a living?

i don't know the answer to this, but i was considering buying a p4 desktop to go along with my dual g4 and was wondering what you thought about me buying a pc version of photoshop for it...i already know that the dual g4 is great for graphics but it would be nice to have two machines since my wife is the "boss" of the g4 and the pc would be rather cheap ;)

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Mav451
...

To sum it up (disregard my current sig, below i am posting the original setup from March 2003):

CPU: 2100+ [87]
Mobo: A7N8X [119]
Case: AX-01BLD Antec case with 2 fans [69]
Memory: 2 x 256 PC2700 [84]
PSU: Antec Tru430 [79]
HD: WD80Gig [99.50]
CPU Heatsink: Swifty 370C [29]

Transplants:
*SBLive (don't know price from 5 years ago, i guess anywhere from 10-25 in OEM markets in March)
*ATi Radeon 8500 (a steal @ 87 bucks in summer 2002)
*2 fans from old AMD tbird case (i guess 5 bucks? These are extreme generics haha).
*17" Monitor valued @ 176 in summer 2002.

500.49 NewEgg order
+ 84 Crucial ram
+ (5 + 17 + 87 = 109 + 176 monitor)
= $869

...

That's more like it. ;)

You made it sound as if you put together an entire system for $500. Just wanted you to clarify.

[Mord]

they are scared because they had such a hard time learning windows they dont want to do the whole learning prosess over again with a mac.

enliten them give them a go on your mac
:p

[sethypoo]

I actually did a research paper on this topic and found that for the most part PC users like the way things are with their computers. I must say I was a Windows 98SE user for a long time (middle and part of high school) and was completely content with the OS. However, once I started wanting to do more than get onto AOL and instant message my friends, I had to find a computer that could do everything I wanted and more.

PC users don't like change, in my experience. It take so long to figure out Windows that they don't want to switch and have to start over. Plus, there seems to be a Mac user=pansy mindset in my neck of the woods (Northern California).

[janey]

Originally posted by warcraftmaster
nope i just got a good idea for a progarm. but i dont know how to use xcode. is they any website? that can tell a thing or two on xcode
first you need to learn a language?
Then comes xcode.
Yeah.
I suggest you learn java or c++ first, then learn objective-c if you'er serious about writing apps for mac os x.

Or take a shortcut and use RealBASIC instead :)

[Fukui]

Originally posted by sethypoo
I actually did a research paper on this topic and found that for the most part PC users like the way things are with their computers.

.......


PC users don't like change, in my experience. It take so long to figure out Windows that they don't want to switch and have to start over.

This is also very very true...

[rainman::|:|]

i have just the opposite problem; many of my friends love Macs and think they're great for any number of reasons, but they also consider them 2-4 times the cost of a bare-bones PC, so they don't see it as being worthwhile. i can't seem to make them understand that Macs hold resale value, which closes the gap considerably, and in my experience are cheaper to maintain. but, it's very difficult to convince them of this.

i have a feeling when we get our new iMac, and people can play with OS X (at speeds over 400mhz), they'll be a lot closer to making the switch ;)

paul

[edStar]

Originally posted by Mav451
Well it is a yin-yang thing to put it simple. Coming from a PC user's POV, Mac users are rather religious, heck even as far as being called zealots. They tell PC users that their OS platform is outdated, or that their hardware is inferior to the Mac. In that case, PC user's than feel they are being forced onto something, that the Mac users are coming on as condescending (not good when you are trying to convince someone...usually convincing comes from eye-to-eye level).

On the other hand, Mac users probably feel the same way, but in a different perspective. PC users will (in general) ridicule those with Macs as being less knowledgeable, brainwashed, what have you. This in turn infuriates Mac users, who then retaliate...and the world continues to turn :)

Is that simple enough?

I think you've summed it up pretty nicely.

[Mav451]

Everytime i think that I haven't actually used a Mac, I remember that at a workplace that my parents worked out, all, and i mean ALL, their computers were Macs!

And back then, a 14.4Kbs Modem was godspeed...heck I was already learning how to "surf the internet" at a pretty young age, using old school Netscape (and now i use new skl Netscape aka Firebird...funny how it works out)

Of course, i wasn't posting on BBS boards at the time...that take the kind of knowledge that i finally have now...10 years later :)

[billyboy]

I don't know anyone who actually hates Macs, I just meet loads of Windows users with clichéd and uninformed comments. The secret is just to keep a lid on one's exuberance and explain it like it is.

The first misnomer is always always something related to software or software compatability.

No software for Macs. I had to wait a bit to get DVD compression software, but that apart, what am I missing out on? As a non game freak but with a huge collection of really neat card games , yawn yawn, I am still waiting to find a situation where I am left out in the cold. I bought the Mac because there was tick against every feature I asked for advice on on mac forums. What cant I do that I want to do? Please enlighten me.

Then you hear that Macs are dear. On the hardware side I have seen top spec PC laptops that cost more than my Powerbook. And with sw, if it doesnt come free with OS X then it is sure available on versiontracker etc as freeware or low cost shareware. I can get Office at the same discount rates as PC users. Where is the problem about not having shelves full of Mac software in high street stores? I dont think I have bought anything computerish from a high street store, because yes, it is too expensive.

Macs are incompatible in the real world. I have to say I quietly laughed my head off when one XP housemate lent his divx collection to xp user number 2, and I heard whispered conversation that XP2 couldnt recognise the format of one of the CDs. VLC and MPlayer seemed to open everything in the collection for me. We set up a network, and all the time it was, "Macs may not work with this, Macs arent compatible, they use different formats and stuff." Right, course they do. Rolls eyes and thinks who made some network protocols usable. I couldnt open a powerpoint file that XP2 wanted to look at on my Mac. I dont believe that was anything to with incompatability, I just don't happen to own a copy of MS Office.

If people want to know about Macs, I'll tell them, but if they want to undermine my happiness with my computer, it is best just to avoid the issue and get back to my twelve apps and music running in harmony.

[Spock]

I look at Macs and PC's like the Car companies
Like sure a Kia can have the same size engine
and be the same thing as a Jaguar except the
price And people would still rather have the Jaguar
even if it is more exspensive.

[zupchuck]

I've been a Macintosh fan since the days of the Mac Plus. Also used various UNIX and Window OSes along the way for work and (occasional) play. Prior to OS X, the Mac froze - a lot. I love the Mac, wouldn't give it up for anything. But then I know the Mac. Most PC users don't. And unless they've had experience using one, their PC experience is usually just fine. Why would you spend more for something that crashed as often as a PC? And prior to OS X, it pretty much did just that. And why would spend more for a box that had half the processor cycles of a PC? Poor education and marketing by Apple on that one because the PC user didn't bother learn why.

With OS X, the PC snobs ask why I use it. I say it's UNIX. <quiet> Oh! But then, why not Linux? Well, if the person has any perspective on the software development world, I mention that Bill Joy can choose whatever he wants and he chooses to use OS X. This usually causes more silence and head scratching. Sometimes even acknowledged understanding.

It all boils down to ignorance. Ignorance of PC users who don't take the time to understand on their own. And ignorance of Mac users in understanding that conformance is comforting to the vast majority of folks.

[Powerbook G5]

If your Mac crashed that often then there may have been an issue with your RAM, software, or something. I used Macs with Mac OS before X for way longer than I've ever used X and I never had issues with instability.

[zupchuck]

If only it were as simple as RAM. But alas, six Macs since 1989 (not counting parents' Macs) don't all have bad RAM. Granted, the Mac has generally been more stable (particularly since 9.x), but it still crashed way too much to gel with Steve's reality distorition field. Don't mistake my comments as bashing the Mac, I'm just sayin' as it is in my opinion. Gee, if I felt the Mac wasn't worth the (extra) coin, I wouldn't still be an Apple customer from the days of the Apple //e. And Apple certainly did enough to piss off customers back in the days of Scully, Spindler, and Amelio. It's a miracle we can buy a G5!

I frankly can get more done at higher quality with my Mac than I can with a PC. That pays for the price difference very fast. And now I don't crash much at all.

[jefhatfield]

crashing, my experience

....................

win 3.1 vs os 7.x...i will take os 7 any day over windows 3.1

win 3.1 vs os 8.x...i will take os 8

...........................

win 95 vs os 8.x...that's a toss up

win 95 vs os 9...i will take os 9

..............................

win 98 vs os 8.x....win 98 more stable

win 98 vs os 9...os 9 more stable

win 98 vs os x...os x more stable

..........................

win nt vs os 9...nt more stable

win nt vs os x...os x more stable

............................

win 2000 vs os 9...2000 more stable

win 2000 vs os x...os x more stable

.............................

win me vs os 9...os 9 more stable

win me vs os x...os x more stable

.........................

win xp vs os 9...xp more stable

win xp vs os x...that's also a toss up

[Powerbook G5]

After fixing 4 XP computers in the past couple of months at school, I'll have to say that OS X is much more stable. If only you knew how ugly the coding is in XP and how terribly aggravating it is having to deal with it and device manager and control panels that seem to be of no use and wizards that seem to be of no use and having to crawl through every dark corner to get rid of viruses, spyware, and dialers that keep getting installed of these computers. Just a few days ago I had to fix the Toshiba laptop of my girlfriend's roommate and she literally had 42 different spyware programs, ads, and other nasty files on her HD that I had to agonizingly clean up.

[benixau]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
After fixing 4 XP computers in the past couple of months at school, I'll have to say that OS X is much more stable. If only you knew how ugly the coding is in XP and how terribly aggravating it is having to deal with it and device manager and control panels that seem to be of no use and wizards that seem to be of no use and having to crawl through every dark corner to get rid of viruses, spyware, and dialers that keep getting installed of these computers. Just a few days ago I had to fix the Toshiba laptop of my girlfriend's roommate and she literally had 42 different spyware programs, ads, and other nasty files on her HD that I had to agonizingly clean up.

And i have about 1 kernel crash (I use 10.3.2) a month. I have yet to see our XP Pro PC crash - we have had it about three months.

Each computer is different and a unique individual. Treat them like that.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by benixau
And i have about 1 kernel crash (I use 10.3.2) a month. I have yet to see our XP Pro PC crash - we have had it about three months.

Each computer is different and a unique individual. Treat them like that.

being a pc side tech, teacher, tutor, and salesman in the last five years, i thought i had seen everything strange that could happen to microsoft windows

yesterday, i saw the strangest problem ever with windows xp

when i boot up, i have the choice of logging on as my client, his wife, and "guest"...for a couple of months there was no issue there and one could log in as any one of the three, two out of the three, or all three

now when one boots up and logs into guest, the computer automatically logs the person off and restarts...before that, i thought there were no real major quirks with the operating system except for its vulnerabilities, even with NTFS and DoD level 2 security assurance

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by benixau
And i have about 1 kernel crash (I use 10.3.2) a month. I have yet to see our XP Pro PC crash - we have had it about three months.

Each computer is different and a unique individual. Treat them like that.

What are you doing at the time of the kernal panic? Those are generally rare so if you can pinpoint either a certain program or activity or possibly a hardware issue, then you could get that taken cared of. I'd be annoyed if my computer crashed once a month.