PDA

View Full Version : Napster at University of Rochester


MacRumors
Feb 4, 2004, 07:46 PM
The University of Rochester announced today (http://www.rochester.edu/news/show.php?id=1684) that they have signed up with Napster to provide digital music downloads to their students:

The 3,700 students living in University of Rochester residence halls will gain free access to Napster’s popular Premium music service later this semester, in the first digital music agreement between Napster, a division of Roxio (nasdaq: ROXI), and a private university.

Penn State Univeristy previously (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031106154938.shtml) announced (and launched) a similar plan based on Napster's subscription service. Under the service, students will be able to stream and download an unlimited number of songs -- though students are unable to transfer or burn the songs unless purchased ($.99/song).

According to one current student, while iTunes appears to be the predominant student-chosen service on campus, Napster was able to offer the school a set plan for their music service.

~Shard~
Feb 4, 2004, 07:49 PM
Whatever, bring it on Napster - I could care less. :) In the end, iTunes will remain supreme!

Dan8302
Feb 4, 2004, 07:49 PM
I live right down the street from the U of R, and all I have to say is sorry guys, that really sucks.

arn
Feb 4, 2004, 07:52 PM
Napster's really stepping up. This college student initiative is potentially a very powerful thing.

You get 'em free anyhow.... when you want to buy one... why not just buy it from Napster?

arn

crees!
Feb 4, 2004, 07:52 PM
So this is what their tuition is going towards. I think schools need to change their priorities.

gwuMACaddict
Feb 4, 2004, 07:52 PM
is this where the students are forced to pay for the service as part of their 'technology fee'?

or is it really free for them...

Photorun
Feb 4, 2004, 07:53 PM
I know people who go to U of R and there's a pretty good Mac contingent there. Man, that's ************. Thing is, NO this isn't an "Apple or nothing..." rant here from me, I think it's stupid any University makes any type of "it's this choice or no choice" thing, it's BS. If someone wants to download from Napster, fine (they're dumb, but fine) or iTunes or even (shudder) MusicMatch. It's stupid that a University would buy into this service as such. For an institution of higher learning this is very dumb indeed!

Dj Kioto
Feb 4, 2004, 07:54 PM
Being a Rochester resident, I'd say tha'ts just another reason Rochester needs it's own Apple Store, Comp USA can bite me... unless I need to get my powerbook fixed after I dropped it, then they'll send it in and it'll come back practically refurbished... looks like we need both!

vitrector
Feb 4, 2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by crees!
So this is what their tuition is going towards. I think schools need to change their priorities.

WHen I was in college, student fees went for this kind of stuff, not the frank tuition.

Anyway, iTunes needs to step it up, 'cause between the wide availablity, without installing new sw, of WMP, and these kind of deals, the iTunes success may not have much staying power....

rideahyperLite
Feb 4, 2004, 07:56 PM
this sucks. i am a student at penn state living in the dorms and recently they put up a firewall so that you can't use programs such as acquisition to download anything. they did this so that students would use napster instead. its really annoying since im on a mac and i can't use napster, not that i really want to, but its just principal that now i am stuck without anything. i can still use itunes but if im going to pay for something i would rather have a hard copy. anyway the napster service here is terrible because u cant download new songs u can only stream them which is annoying. ok im done

rdowns
Feb 4, 2004, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by ~Shard~
Whatever, bring it on Napster - I could care less. :) In the end, iTunes will remain supreme!

Sorry, pet peeve of mine. It's "I couldN'T care less."

As a side note, Pepsi just aired their iTunes ad during American Idol. Huge audience- targeted!

Doctor Q
Feb 4, 2004, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by gwuMACaddict
is this where the students are forced to pay for the service as part of their 'technology fee'?Somebody is paying Napster, so it has to be part of the total cost students are paying, one way or another.

Does the arrangment allow students to carry music around in portable players? Edit: It says no in the article. So, for starters, it's only on-campus streaming. I doubt students will be satisfied settling for that.

KindredMAC
Feb 4, 2004, 07:58 PM
Frickin Rochester!!!!
Figures, Kodak has pretty much dumped all Apple R&D for their applications and professional photo services and now U of Ra-cha-cha goes and does this......

vitrector
Feb 4, 2004, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Photorun
I know people who go to U of R and there's a pretty good Mac contingent there. Man, that's ************. Thing is, NO this isn't an "Apple or nothing..." rant here from me, I think it's stupid any University makes any type of "it's this choice or no choice" thing, it's BS. If someone wants to download from Napster, fine (they're dumb, but fine) or iTunes or even (shudder) MusicMatch. It's stupid that a University would buy into this service as such. For an institution of higher learning this is very dumb indeed!

I wish I could agree, but from an organization point of view, this is no different than a Coke or Pepsi kind of decision. A University administration could care less about standards war blah etc., they care about the most affordable, best deal for the $$ they spend!

musicmaniac210
Feb 4, 2004, 08:00 PM
Boy, would I love to see Berklee College of Music doing something like this next year with iTunes.

The whole school requires 15" PowerBooks for all students anyways....

:)

joemama
Feb 4, 2004, 08:04 PM
MMMMMM.....Dibella's...!


Wait, does this agreement mean they will block any iTune Music downloads?

fredwick
Feb 4, 2004, 08:09 PM
pooh, accidently clicked possitive.

Krizoitz
Feb 4, 2004, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Doctor Q
Somebody is paying Napster, so it has to be part of the total cost students are paying, one way or another.

Does the arrangment allow students to carry music around in portable players? Edit: It says no in the article. So, for starters, it's only on-campus streaming. I doubt students will be satisfied settling for that.

As a college student the idea that I would be paying for a service in terms of fees that I can't even use is appalling.

Oh and the reason they are doing this is very very simple. Marketing. Get kids to come by saying, hey look we offer you free music! No need to get sued! Come here and give us all your money and rack up lots of debt because we care more about making money than taking care of students (don't even get me started about how much students at my school are ripped of by the Food and Housing Services)

Analog Kid
Feb 4, 2004, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by arn
Napster's really stepping up. This college student initiative is potentially a very powerful thing.

You get 'em free anyhow.... when you want to buy one... why not just buy it from Napster?

arn

Might actually be more powerful than that-- when a school decides to give a laptop to every freshman, for example, would they pick one that's incompatible with their PleaseDontSueMe music service?

york2600
Feb 4, 2004, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by rideahyperLite
this sucks. i am a student at penn state living in the dorms and recently they put up a firewall so that you can't use programs such as acquisition to download anything. they did this so that students would use napster instead. its really annoying since im on a mac and i can't use napster, not that i really want to, but its just principal that now i am stuck without anything. i can still use itunes but if im going to pay for something i would rather have a hard copy. anyway the napster service here is terrible because u cant download new songs u can only stream them which is annoying. ok im done


Most schools are firewalling their ResNets and putting up layer 4 switches to regulate the speeds of applications which communicate on common ports. Every California State University does it and last time I heard all the University of California schools were doing it too. They got tired of paying for bandwidth and having legit services move at a snails pace.

mike412
Feb 4, 2004, 08:32 PM
Hey! Rochester is in the headlines of macrumors!! Too bad it isn't something positive, though...


Originally posted by Dj Kioto
Being a Rochester resident, I'd say tha'ts just another reason Rochester needs it's own Apple Store, Comp USA can bite me... unless I need to get my powerbook fixed after I dropped it, then they'll send it in and it'll come back practically refurbished... looks like we need both!

I agree...we need an Apple store! It sucks having your nearest Apple store over an hour away in Buffalo. CompUSA isn't that bad, but it would be nice to go bug the geniuses at the genius bar every one and a while, and to be able to go to all the specials Apple is always having at their stores. We can only hope...

mms
Feb 4, 2004, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by rdowns
As a side note, Pepsi just aired their iTunes ad during American Idol. Huge audience- targeted!

The same ad as the SuperBowl one?

TranceClubMusic
Feb 4, 2004, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by arn
Napster's really stepping up. This college student initiative is potentially a very powerful thing.

You get 'em free anyhow.... when you want to buy one... why not just buy it from Napster?

arn


I totaly agree about the stepping up from Napster.
I am also very sad to admit that when it comes to my style of music - Napster has 200% more selection of music. iTunes is great for popular music but seriously lacks on underground and unique music. Almost every search for Trance Music has left me dry with iTunes - but Napster has a HUGE selection of the music I love.
Its a catch 22 - because I love the iTunes interface and hate Napster - but for some odd reason Napster sells all the Music I crave for. I sent an email to Apple - I hope they actually read comments of subscribers for more types of music.
Thats my 2 cents.
John

TranceClubMusic
Feb 4, 2004, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by mms
The same ad as the SuperBowl one?

It was a much shorter version of the Super Bowl one.

jwhitnah
Feb 4, 2004, 08:58 PM
Uh-oh. This is bad. Apple needs the streaming option Napster has. The problem is, most deans are unoriginal and simply imitate other deans. This could be a serious edge for Napster against Apple if it gains 'Big Mo.'

Bunny
Feb 4, 2004, 09:02 PM
Its great to see someone having a good go at targeting intelligent audiences. Napster is not relying on "fast food" and the young & stupid to get their music store up and going.
Good Luck Napster.

Edot
Feb 4, 2004, 09:02 PM
Unlimited Downloading?:eek:Who is paying for these songs?:confused:Napster is really desperate for publicity and mindshare. I wonder why?:o

jwhitnah
Feb 4, 2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Edot
Unlimited Downloading?:eek:Who is paying for these songs?:confused:Napster is really desperate for publicity and mindshare. I wonder why?:o

It is a potential threat to Apple that I would not take too lightly.

stoid
Feb 4, 2004, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Krizoitz
(don't even get me started about how much students at my school are ripped of by the Food and Housing Services)

lol! That gets me started though! $350 a month for half a jail cell, and strangled high-speed internet on an out-dated, under-powered Gateway shell. Even a small meal taken from a disgustingly small and worse tasting selection at like 6 dollars!

Uhhh, for the sake of being on topic, it sounds like a decent idea, but almost as big a tech joke as the Gateway beasts they waste our tuition dollars on.

stromie952
Feb 4, 2004, 09:16 PM
I definitely have to say that this is ridiculous.

I am in fact a student at the University of Rochester and this is far from an ideal solution. Not only can students who own a Mac not use the services unless you use VPC (which wouldn't work well anyways), but even if I could use it, the files are non transferrable to music players.

The main fact that we should realize from this is that Napster is really the only option for schools at this point. Apple doesn't have a "premium" service like Napster with unlimited downloads. I'm not sure how they would provide a college with a service that would be acceptable for Apple and the university. They couldn't just do completely free because you could download every song off of the Apple server.

So this leaves Apple and colleges in a bad situation. Apple can't get higher college exposure and the colleges are forced into using Napster, which is an inherently inferior and only one platform service.

Overall, I have to say that I don't like the deal, but I understand why they made it with Napster. All I know is that I won't be using it. I can't say I won't recommend it (legal downloading is a neat idea), but I will recommend to the University that they switch to the Apple service when the opportunity becomes available.

Photorun
Feb 4, 2004, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by vitrector
I wish I could agree, but from an organization point of view, this is no different than a Coke or Pepsi kind of decision. A University administration could care less about standards war blah etc., they care about the most affordable, best deal for the $$ they spend!

So you're saying choice is a BAD thing and lack of choice is a good thing? Clarify or are you that much of a (remembers forum rules) ... uh, thinker like that?

varmit
Feb 4, 2004, 09:20 PM
is because the kids can listen to any song without buy it. It is STREAMING MEDIA. NOT DOWNLOADING. But they can't do anything other than listen to it. That is all kids in college need, to listen. So Napster will be big if colleges buy in, which I hate because my school bought in, PSU sucks. It is only for kids on campus, and have windows. The fact that they are doing this is bias, they couldn't even choose a cross platform program. I bet apple would work somthing out for the students to download a certain amount of music, or set up a server just for penn state that has music that was bought by them just for students to get access too and download. Then some hard coding into iTunes for only 50 or so songs from that ripository on a single computer at a time. I'm sure they could easily do that.

Messiatosh
Feb 4, 2004, 09:22 PM
and the Napster service blows! All 48,000 students probably feel the same way I do. I'm sticking with my iPod and iTMS with a few Limewire MP3's every now and again, come on Im in college. ;)

OKComputer
Feb 4, 2004, 09:28 PM
I go to RIT, another large and private Rochester area school. Mac and RIT are kindof bed buddies. Kodak with its headquarters in Rochester, has funded many graphics programs at RIT (photo,video and print producion) and RIT has responded with one of the largest installed education bases of macs in the country. Our bookstore has its own Apple EDU store. It would be sweet if itunes/apple struck up a deal with RIT in Napsters back yard.


Further.... Yea its streaming music...guess what, you can already do that with itunes and rendevous. I have days of music to listen to thanks to my neighbors. PS. itunes works on Windows AND PC where is napster for mac?

Einherjar
Feb 4, 2004, 09:28 PM
As the submitter of the story, I've got to say that this is a sad day for Apple. This is the first *private institution* to secure such a deal, and that's why we're not hearing much on who is ultimately paying for this (I wouldn't be surprised if the unnamed contributor for the money happened to be a Napster investor or someone in general from the Napster camp). Either way, there's no current cost to the students.

Apple might not make anything off of the songs just as before, but what is important to note is that all College Students are a prime target audience, getting ready to become full-blown consumers with their own income and more defined purchasing patterns. What's important here is mindshare, and Apple is doing absolutely nothing at the moment to attempt to secure mindshare in this important demographic.


What sucks about this deal is that in this plan, we can't do anything with our music except stream it at our computers--we're treated like criminals. We cannot even use music files from the service in audio apps or videos for our own personal educational use, which makes this a huge letdown for students. The Napster plan completely ignores fair use, and according to stories from Penn. State, starts a trend for killing P2P on school networks (I don't care if the technology is used for mostly illegal uses, academia can get a lot of information from analysis of it).

The only positive I've seen from this plan, which isn't mentioned in the press release, is the inclusion of the vast Eastman Music Library, which is a very big plus in my mind.

UR is a gigantic Mac campus, you can't walk to class without passing at least one person with an iPod (yeah, it's cold here, so it's usually under a few layers of clothing, but most users still use the very distictive white-corded earbuds), and almost everyone I know uses iTunes for the network sharing and great interface, if not the store. 6 people on my 20-person floor have iPods, most of them purchased in the last semester. I call that a pretty good indication of who is the top dog on campus.

However, Apple gave us absolutely ZERO help when we called during our 3-Month campaign, and it hurt our progress greatly.

Either way, this is just a one and a half thing, and we can definitely turn this around. Come on, Apple, get on the ball! This is something that must be done.

hulugu
Feb 4, 2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Krizoitz
As a college student the idea that I would be paying for a service in terms of fees that I can't even use is appalling.

Oh and the reason they are doing this is very very simple. Marketing. Get kids to come by saying, hey look we offer you free music! No need to get sued! Come here and give us all your money and rack up lots of debt because we care more about making money than taking care of students (don't even get me started about how much students at my school are ripped of by the Food and Housing Services)

Bah. The University of Arizona wants to do this as well and I'm sending the President a letter. The problem, I'm going to get a Technology fee so that students can use Napster, while Napster manages to get a subscription from the University and a new revenue stream. The students who do use the system can only stream these songs and then pay .99c to download it. The University get the save their bandwidth, but in the exchange the university and its students become beholden to yet another corporate entity (beyond Pepsi and Nike).

Krizoitz
Feb 4, 2004, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by hulugu
...and Nike).

Heh, it could be worse, you could got to the University of Nike...err I mean the University of Oregon. Stupid ducks...;)

Krizoitz
Feb 4, 2004, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by york2600
Most schools are firewalling their ResNets and putting up layer 4 switches to regulate the speeds of applications which communicate on common ports. Every California State University does it and last time I heard all the University of California schools were doing it too. They got tired of paying for bandwidth and having legit services move at a snails pace.

USC did the same thing after the whole Metallica/Napster lawsuit in which they were named.

People have been advocating that Apple do something similar but I don't think they will. They have a fundementally different view of downloading music, where you OWN it instead of sort of rent it like these other services.

I think the lack of MP3 player support could be a problem, I can't walk between a single class without seeing people with iPods, and here I am in the heart of Microsoft land.

warcraftmaster
Feb 4, 2004, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by arn
Napster's really stepping up. This college student initiative is potentially a very powerful thing.

You get 'em free anyhow.... when you want to buy one... why not just buy it from Napster?

arn


i dont see the point in this, when the student can use all of peoples songs in itunes over the network. or they can wait like 5 min for there songs that they want

Darkhorse
Feb 5, 2004, 12:30 AM
I don't know about you, but when I was in university in 1999-2000 Napster was blocked by the University of Western Ontario RezNet. One way I got MP3s was to use FTP clients with that upload/download ratio stuff.

At any rate the main method of getting music was from your pals. There's always someone who has all the pop CDs or MP3s and then there's the weird indie kid who has rare crap and there's the dude who's into raves who has a wide selection of trance. All this one one floor of a residence. Just hop on AIM or ICQ or MSN and ask one of the 50 people who are probably on your list of university buddies if they have what you're looking for.

But this was around 1999-2000 when having 300 mp3s was considered a lot.

Lest we forget iTunes also has streaming radio as well.

I don't think Napster deal will have much of an impact. At least I hope not.

winmacguy
Feb 5, 2004, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Darkhorse
I don't know about you, but when I was in university in 1999-2000 Napster was blocked by the University of Western Ontario RezNet. One way I got MP3s was to use FTP clients with that upload/download ratio stuff.

At any rate the main method of getting music was from your pals. There's always someone who has all the pop CDs or MP3s and then there's the weird indie kid who has rare crap and there's the dude who's into raves who has a wide selection of trance. All this one one floor of a residence. Just hop on AIM or ICQ or MSN and ask one of the 50 people who are probably on your list of university buddies if they have what you're looking for.

But this was around 1999-2000 when having 300 mp3s was considered a lot.

Lest we forget iTunes also has streaming radio as well.

I don't think Napster deal will have much of an impact. At least I hope not.

I wouldnt count on it. It may only be streaming media from Napster but it all goes towards brand awareness and spreading the Napster name amongst thousands of potential customers. It is also a bit of savy sales and marketing from Napster right when Pepsi is promoting iTunes, Rochester is cutting of anyway of making a purchse possible and making sure that its residents only have access to streaming Napster.

Einherjar
Feb 5, 2004, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by winmacguy
I wouldnt count on it. It may only be streaming media from Napster but it all goes towards brand awareness and spreading the Napster name amongst thousands of potential customers. It is also a bit of savy sales and marketing from Napster right when Pepsi is promoting iTunes, Rochester is cutting of anyway of making a purchse possible and making sure that its residents only have access to streaming Napster.

That last sentence is horribly, horribly incorrect. UR ITS isn't blocking access to anything, winamac.

However, you are quite correct about brand awareness which is why I find it funny that Apple is basically sitting idly by while all of these schools are getting snatched up by Napster's institutional plan.

shorts16
Feb 5, 2004, 02:05 AM
I became a Mac user because I went to the University of Rochester. My first Mac was an SE - simply because EVERYONE on campus used macs.

Ever since I've graduated in '95 I've been a Mac geek.

I would have loved to have seen an iTunes deal instead of this Napster garbage - can't say that it will last though!

Snowy_River
Feb 5, 2004, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by arn
Napster's really stepping up. This college student initiative is potentially a very powerful thing.

You get 'em free anyhow.... when you want to buy one... why not just buy it from Napster?

arn

Uh... WMA?

Snowy_River
Feb 5, 2004, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by vitrector
I wish I could agree, but from an organization point of view, this is no different than a Coke or Pepsi kind of decision. A University administration could care less about standards war blah etc., they care about the most affordable, best deal for the $$ they spend!

Well, there is the matter of the fact that this choice is discriminating against the Mac users on campus. Before anyone starts quoting my 3% market share, I'd encourage someone to look up what the market share among college students is. I don't have a link, but about a year or so ago I saw a stat that had it at around 20%. Now that's a very significant minority to be flaunting....

"Come to our school, but only if you use Windows..."

Snowy_River
Feb 5, 2004, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by OKComputer
... Yea its streaming music...guess what, you can already do that with itunes and rendevous.

Now that's an interesting idea...

What if Apple could allow a channel for universities to access the music stored in their servers, and then the universities could share that over their internal network via rendezvous. That way the built-in streaming capabilities of iTunes would be utilized (i.e., no updated version needed)...

PS. itunes works on Windows AND PC where is napster for mac?

I think you meant 'on Windows AND Mac'. But I couldn't agree with you more...


Originally posted by hulugu
Bah. The University of Arizona wants to do this as well and I'm sending the President a letter...

You're kidding. Well, I may have to join you in that letter. While I'm a grad student here, I certainly object to them using a service such as this one...

(I'm really starting to dislike President Likins...)

greenstork
Feb 5, 2004, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by Snowy_River


What if Apple could allow a channel for universities to access the music stored in their servers, and then the universities could share that over their internal network via rendezvous. That way the built-in streaming capabilities of iTunes would be utilized (i.e., no updated version needed)...



iTunes, as it is currently configured, find music via rendezvous by searching the local subnet. Many universities have numerous subnets for different sections of campus, dorms, etc. In order to do what you're talking about, one of two things would have to happen.
1. Either the university would have to reconfigure its whole network, highly unlikely. or
2. Apple would have to modify iTunes, also unlikely.

However, some universities have one large subnet, which enables dozens, if not hundreds of shared music folder in iTunes.

One thing interesting about Napster is their willingness to feature music from university students on their service. Apple could stand to learn something from that.

winmacguy
Feb 5, 2004, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by Einherjar
That last sentence is horribly, horribly incorrect. UR ITS isn't blocking access to anything, winamac.

However, you are quite correct about brand awareness which is why I find it funny that Apple is basically sitting idly by while all of these schools are getting snatched up by Napster's institutional plan.

My apologys Einherjar, that was just the impression that I got from reading the article. I stand corrected. However, I agree that Apple shoudl watch out very closely as Napster is obviously on the marketing war path to gaining new subscribers to its service through US Universities which could easily lead to ongoing subscriptions when the students leave University and go into their paying day jobs. It is alright for Apple to advertise by way of regular media, but they are not dealing with a regular "playing field". They may have the best product out there for now but that is not saying that they will hold onto their market margins if Napster keeps up with its deals.

How ever Lets not forget that Napster has to also show a profit in the coming months from its music service subscriptions to show that the service is financially viable. Napster may have a subscription service but it is not tied to their own high profit margin hardware like the iTMS is to the iPod

virividox
Feb 5, 2004, 03:13 AM
lets hope itunes get a deal with berkely or something :D

arn
Feb 5, 2004, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by Darkhorse
Lest we forget iTunes also has streaming radio as well.


This is NOT streaming radio.

This is on-demand streaming. "I want to listen to XYZ". And download the song you want to your computer and listen to it (from your computer) as much as you want.

arn

Snowy_River
Feb 5, 2004, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by greenstork
iTunes, as it is currently configured, find music via rendezvous by searching the local subnet. Many universities have numerous subnets for different sections of campus, dorms, etc. In order to do what you're talking about, one of two things would have to happen.
1. Either the university would have to reconfigure its whole network, highly unlikely. or
2. Apple would have to modify iTunes, also unlikely.

However, some universities have one large subnet, which enables dozens, if not hundreds of shared music folder in iTunes.

One thing interesting about Napster is their willingness to feature music from university students on their service. Apple could stand to learn something from that.

Well, as I was intending to suggest that this be made available to the dorms (i.e. the specific subnet(s) for the dorms), as that's where the real target audience is, I don't see how your point is valid.

In any event, I'll grant that this isn't a simple solution. The ability for the universities to access the Apple servers would not be a trivial hurdle. But, if that hurdle could be overcome, I'd think that the streaming on the networks (i.e. subnets) would be trivial, by comparison.

rdowns
Feb 5, 2004, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by mms
The same ad as the SuperBowl one?

Yes, except in this version, the girl exposed her right breast.

l008com
Feb 5, 2004, 05:05 AM
I like the idea of using iTunes sharing to let everyone listen over the lan but not have. The way iTunes sharing works is basically the same as what these schools napster works. You can listen but you can't have it. The problem is, would the labels have a fit if Apple started giving away their music without selling it? If so, are the labels going to get mad at napster for doing it? Apple could definitely set up its own sharing server at colleges around the country. Weather it would have music on it or just link to Apple's store over the internet, it would pop right up in everyone's itunes, they could pipe it into every subnet (that they wanted to) relatively easily. I don't think that would be very hard at all and it seems like it might definitely be something Apple missed the ball on.

l008com
Feb 5, 2004, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by rdowns
Yes, except in this version, the girl exposed her right breast.

Did she then lick it? That'd be cool. She does have rather large ones.

rdowns
Feb 5, 2004, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by Einherjar
As the submitter of the story, I've got to say that this is a sad day for Apple. This is the first *private institution* to secure such a deal, and that's why we're not hearing much on who is ultimately paying for this (I wouldn't be surprised if the unnamed contributor for the money happened to be a Napster investor or someone in general from the Napster camp). Either way, there's no current cost to the students.




What sucks about this deal is that in this plan, we can't do anything with our music except stream it at our computers--we're treated like criminals. We cannot even use music files from the service in audio apps or videos for our own personal educational use, which makes this a huge letdown for students.


First paragraph, "There's no current cost to students."

Second paragraph,"What sucks about this deal is that in this plan, we can't do anything with our music except stream it at our computers--we're treated like criminals. "

Why are you being treated like a criminal? You can stream all the music ou want for free. You want them to allow downloading too? Maybe the local Best Buy should just let student walk in and take all the CDs they want. Give me a break. Like students, or anyone else for that mater, could be trusted not to d/l illegally. I've said this before on this forum, where does this sense of entitlement come from?

As for audio and video for your projects, there are many public domain sources available. Something you really want to use that's not in the public domain, write and get permission.

ITR 81
Feb 5, 2004, 07:59 AM
"UCLA - the University of California, Los Angeles will host the first in a series of mini-retail stores to be built at selected locations. The store will most likely be inside the Ackerman Student Union building in the center of campus."

http://www.ifoapplestore.com/stores/chronology.html

I'm sure a Apple Store will end up in most all CA. Universities.

ITR 81
Feb 5, 2004, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by rdowns
First paragraph, "There's no current cost to students."

Second paragraph,"What sucks about this deal is that in this plan, we can't do anything with our music except stream it at our computers--we're treated like criminals. "

Why are you being treated like a criminal? You can stream all the music ou want for free. You want them to allow downloading too? Maybe the local Best Buy should just let student walk in and take all the CDs they want. Give me a break. Like students, or anyone else for that mater, could be trusted not to d/l illegally. I've said this before on this forum, where does this sense of entitlement come from?

As for audio and video for your projects, there are many public domain sources available. Something you really want to use that's not in the public domain, write and get permission.

Nothing is ever free. Someone or some company is footing the bill. If the University is footing the bill it's coming from the students tuition. If it's from Napster then they are losing money to gain mindshare.

l008com
Feb 5, 2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Nothing is ever free. Someone or some company is footing the bill. If the University is footing the bill it's coming from the students tuition. If it's from Napster then they are losing money to gain mindshare.
If its napster then it really is free. Regardless i think Apple has a great opportunity here to do the same thing with the iTMS.

vitrector
Feb 5, 2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Photorun
So you're saying choice is a BAD thing and lack of choice is a good thing? Clarify or are you that much of a (remembers forum rules) ... uh, thinker like that?

I suppose I should have written my post in english to make it understandable. Oh, wait, it is english! Do _you_ understand english? I did not even hint at the idea that choice is bad!

How many cafeterias/restaurants/fast food places do you know that offer Coke and Pepsi side by side?
The point is that, in this case, the choice (and choosing) happens at a higher level, not the user level. That is just how it is. The University admin holds the money bag (though it is the student's $$), they decide who gets to put their hands into it. Napster probably had a better offer for their needs than others (incl. iTunes), or maybe the Admin didn't look around and Napster came to them with a good offer. Either way, the suits have and make the decision, not the student!
It's up to Apple's iTunes to put together deals that are attractive and market them to these one solution shoppers like Universities.

cubist
Feb 5, 2004, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by vitrector
... The point is that, in this case, the choice (and choosing) happens at a higher level, not the user level. ...

How Microsoftian. Like at a corporation, where the IT department chooses Windows, no matter what the users may want. Or like at a dictatorship. Like in the Soviet Union. What a great lesson for an educational institution to teach students.

Of course academia is still heavily Stalinistic and elitist at heart. "Academic freedom" is an oxymoron.

vitrector
Feb 5, 2004, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
Well, there is the matter of the fact that this choice is discriminating against the Mac users on campus. Before anyone starts quoting my 3% market share, I'd encourage someone to look up what the market share among college students is. I don't have a link, but about a year or so ago I saw a stat that had it at around 20%. Now that's a very significant minority to be flaunting....

"Come to our school, but only if you use Windows..."

You are then saying the admin (or whoever) made a bad choice, it does not serve the students well. They should choose for a cross platform solution. However, even with the estimated 20% mac market share on campus, they are still serving the majority of students. They may have considered it and decided that it is OK, at least they are offering something legal. (and maybe I am giving them too much credit!?)

The critisim lies with the decision made, but perhaps it was the only choice they had (I am unaware of iTunes having any plans for streaming music, which is apparently key to this kind of deal/solution).

BTW: I personnally would be outraged if I attended that University, as I _would_ feel discriminated against.

l008com
Feb 5, 2004, 08:26 AM
Well maybe, if apple comes out with its own iTMS for schools like this, they can sell it not only to all the other schools, but maybe they can sell it to the napster schools too, so students really will have a choice. Wowee

jcshas
Feb 5, 2004, 09:31 AM
Why should schools feel as though it is their responsibility to promote an easy path to legal music downloads? Must be a CYA kind of thing to avoid future lawsuits. I just don't get it.

keysersoze
Feb 5, 2004, 10:32 AM
As an alum of UR, all I have to say is, forget any future donations from me.

Oh...and just so we're clear on this, NOTHING is free.

Napster sucks.

mrsebastian
Feb 5, 2004, 11:23 AM
in this situation napster is essentially music on demand, kinda like cable. as steve has said, there really are no profits to be had from itms, so why would apple ever consider doing something like napster?

l008com
Feb 5, 2004, 11:24 AM
BEAUSE the idea is once people are already using your software, when they wanna buy, they are going to use YOU, not download and install a completely new software/service.

greenstork
Feb 5, 2004, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
Well, as I was intending to suggest that this be made available to the dorms (i.e. the specific subnet(s) for the dorms), as that's where the real target audience is, I don't see how your point is valid.

In any event, I'll grant that this isn't a simple solution. The ability for the universities to access the Apple servers would not be a trivial hurdle. But, if that hurdle could be overcome, I'd think that the streaming on the networks (i.e. subnets) would be trivial, by comparison.

I'm still not sure you get my point. Some universities have each dorm on a different subnet, so instead of having (potentially) thousands of students iTunes libraries to choose from (throughout the entire dorm system),a given dorm may only have a few hundred students, or less, necessitating a network reorganization on the part of many universities to make the type of widespread sharing you suggest possible.

If you think a university IT department is going to reorganize their networks for the purpose of sharing music, you're in la la land.

edit: It is important to understand that iTunes sharing DOES NOT WORK across different subnets. If they were to add that feature, you could share across the whole internet, which, as you'll recall, was removed in version 4.0.1 of iTunes.

l008com
Feb 5, 2004, 11:31 AM
But I'm sure theres a way you could 'tunnel' a connection to a local iTunes server to each subnet without actually joining each network directly.

greenstork
Feb 5, 2004, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by l008com
But I'm sure theres a way you could 'tunnel' a connection to a local iTunes server to each subnet without actually joining each network directly.

I'm sorry to say, that's just not how rendezvous works. What you're suggesting is simply not possible without significantly altering rendezvous or how sharing works in iTunes. IMO, to remove rendezvous in favor of a different sharing technology seems like a monumental task and highly unlikely.

Bear in mind that sharing doesn't work off the Apple server, it works by finding other iTunes shared music folders on your local network. What you're suggesting is a wholesale change to iTunes. May be you can pass that off as an easy modification but I'm sure that Apple sees things differently.

Otherwise you're suggesting reorganizing a university computer network for the purpose of sharing music and IMO, this is unlikely.

Einherjar
Feb 5, 2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by rdowns
First paragraph, "There's no current cost to students."
....
As for audio and video for your projects, there are many public domain sources available. Something you really want to use that's not in the public domain, write and get permission.

Uhh, have you ever heard of a concept of fair use? Educational uses in a private institution, not for public performance...

We are being treated like the criminal college-students we are--streaming sucks and removes any sort of notion of fair use, and on top of that, we can't even listen to the music away from the computer. Now, some people don't mind that, but a large portion here with iPods do. I realize that Napster cannot give us unlimited low-cost downloads, and I never, ever said they would just give us everything "free" as in your Best-Buy analogy. I would have preferred some kind of quota system of a set number of songs+the streaming audio that comes with the subscription service to keep the student straight when quota is reached. However, this would be costly and adds a whole new dimension to the problem.

*snip*

Additionally, this is being funded from an *outside donation*. Even if it were being footed by the University for the time being, I don't feel charged for anything because they already HAVE my money. No one will care until they impose a fee on the tuition involving the music service issue (either Napster or iTunes). Should I feel cheated when they give maintenance a raise even though they didn't tack a special amount for it onto my tuition? They bungle operations with our tuition all the time, tis the way of any University. Yeah, it sucks, but no one will give a rat's ass unless the school actually tacks it onto the actual listed tuition.

Snowy_River
Feb 5, 2004, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by l008com
...The problem is, would the labels have a fit if Apple started giving away their music without selling it? If so, are the labels going to get mad at napster for doing it? Apple could definitely set up its own sharing server at colleges around the country...

Well, I don't think that we'd be talking about this being free, any more than the Napster service is free. The universities would be paying Apple for being able to stream music onto their networks.

Snowy_River
Feb 5, 2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by vitrector
...How many cafeterias/restaurants/fast food places do you know that offer Coke and Pepsi side by side?...

Yes, but there isn't a matter of Pepsi is compatible with some cups and Coke is compatible with others. Restaurants know that most people who drink Coke will drink Pepsi if that's the only option their given. So, this is a bit of a different situation...

Originally posted by cubist
How Microsoftian. Like at a corporation, where the IT department chooses Windows, no matter what the users may want...

This is a little bit of a poor example. While I've worked places where the IT department makes such a decision, I also know that this isn't an absolute decision that needs to be made. Most up-to-date IT departments know that Macs and PCs play pretty well together on networks, so there's no reason not to have a cross platform environment.

...Of course academia is still heavily Stalinistic and elitist at heart. "Academic freedom" is an oxymoron.

Uh... I'd have to disagree, and take mild offense at your choice of phrasing. Academic freedom is very much a reality, if you know what it is that you're talking about...

l008com
Feb 5, 2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by greenstork
I'm sorry to say, that's just not how rendezvous works. What you're suggesting is simply not possible without significantly altering rendezvous or how sharing works in iTunes. IMO, to remove rendezvous in favor of a different sharing technology seems like a monumental task and highly unlikely.

Bear in mind that sharing doesn't work off the Apple server, it works by finding other iTunes shared music folders on your local network. What you're suggesting is a wholesale change to iTunes. May be you can pass that off as an easy modification but I'm sure that Apple sees things differently.

Otherwise you're suggesting reorganizing a university computer network for the purpose of sharing music and IMO, this is unlikely.


I don't think you get the idea. Figure a server on a network, that would appear as a simple iTunes program to other iTunes programs on the network. That way everyone on that network that had itunes would see this 'server' in ther shared music list. Now through what i think might be as easy as port mapping between networks, all subnets could all use the same single 'iTunes server' This iTunes server would most likely be a single xServe with software that would act like a bridge between the iTunes Music Store and a local iTunes sharing network. I don't think it would be anywhere near as hard as you suggest.

Snowy_River
Feb 5, 2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by vitrector
...The critisim lies with the decision made, but perhaps it was the only choice they had (I am unaware of iTunes having any plans for streaming music, which is apparently key to this kind of deal/solution).

BTW: I personnally would be outraged if I attended that University, as I _would_ feel discriminated against.

Yeah, I'm criticizing the decision. If I was attending one of those schools, I'd be faced with the knowledge that money was being spent for an elective entertainment service that only benefits some of the students.

On the question of 80% being benefitted, I'd question this. Based on the undergrads that I know, I'd say that the numbers are more like

Mac 20%
Linux 5%
Windows 45%
No Computer 30%

So, if this is anything close to reality, then only about half the student body would benefit from a service such as this...

Einherjar
Feb 5, 2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by l008com
I don't think you get the idea. Figure a server on a network, that would appear as a simple iTunes program to other iTunes programs on the network. That way everyone on that network that had itunes would see this 'server' in ther shared music list. Now through what i think might be as easy as port mapping between networks, all subnets could all use the same single 'iTunes server' This iTunes server would most likely be a single xServe with software that would act like a bridge between the iTunes Music Store and a local iTunes sharing network. I don't think it would be anywhere near as hard as you suggest.

This is much like one of the plans my group and I proposed, a central server for streaming/downloading music from the store via a university-side modified iTunes proxy running on Apple hardware.

We had to propose things because Apple wasn't helping us at all, and of course, the proposals failed because Apple wasn't helping us at all. :-/

l008com
Feb 5, 2004, 12:11 PM
Maybe apple is doing nothing because this is only an expense for them, and they have the foresight to see that this is probably going to do nothing and napster is still going to fail despite this crappy service, maybe they see that already and I don't.

::shrug::

Its an interesting idea though, i wish more people around had wireless, I'd try setting up a music sharing network. But i live in a suburb. oh well

Einherjar
Feb 5, 2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by l008com
Maybe apple is doing nothing because this is only an expense for them, and they have the foresight to see that this is probably going to do nothing and napster is still going to fail despite this crappy service, maybe they see that already and I don't.



The foresight may be what's hindering them. In their past history, because they didn't actively work to get as much mindshare in their various markets as possible, only marketshare, Apple is very far behind. Apple will have to realize that they need to do more to hit kids on as many college campuses as possible because they are a prime purchasing demographic. In a few years, they'll all be consumers, as I've said in a post way back. If you keep bombarding them with marketing and you show them the way over the course of the four years they spend in college, you'll end up with a sale, be it even something as insignificant as an iPod or a copy of software for their PC. Apple NEEDS to branch out and hit these people instead of simply leaving it to word of mouth and on-campus user groups.

Doctor Q
Feb 5, 2004, 02:17 PM
Two thoughts:

1. I'd like to see Apple stay the leader in online music. Having tens of thousands of university students hooked on streaming music from another service is definitely a threat to Apple's market share and mindshare. But I try to keep in mind that the competition is part of what keeps Apple working so hard.

2. Students get educational discounts on hardware. Students get educational discounts on software. Should music services offer discounted purchases to students too? I'm not talking about the supposedly free streaming the Napster deal provides. I'm talking about the music students pay for by the song, album, or month.

rdowns
Feb 5, 2004, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Nothing is ever free. Someone or some company is footing the bill. If the University is footing the bill it's coming from the students tuition. If it's from Napster then they are losing money to gain mindshare.

You're picking nits here. The original poster said it was at no cost to students implying their student fees were not being used, therefore it is free to the students. Of course someone is paying fo it.

rdowns
Feb 5, 2004, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Doctor Q
Two thoughts:

2. Students get educational discounts on hardware. Students get educational discounts on software. Should music services offer discounted purchases to students too? I'm not talking about the supposedly free streaming the Napster deal provides. I'm talking about the music students pay for by the song, album, or month.

As a former student, I have no problem with subsidizing lower costs for things you use for your education. And those of us no longer eligible for student discounts do subsidize when we pay full price for these things. I hardly think we should be doing that with a luxury item, music.

If a music d/l site were to offer student discounts, I would not buy music there as I won't subsidize the purchase of music to students. JMO.

spinner
Feb 5, 2004, 08:54 PM
First of all let me say that I am extremely disappointed in higher ed. People are suppose to be going to college to learn not download music. This is an incredible waste of funds no matter who is paying for it. It could have been much better spent on facilities upgrades, computer labs, etc.

Secondly, how much time do you really spend in front of your computer to take advantage of all of this free music? Personally, I listen to more music in my car, on my iPod, and on my stereo then I ever do on my computer. Limiting this to the computer only seems to make it rediculous (sp?). Spend time d/l so that you can't do anything with it? What a complete ****** waste of resources.

I would rather listen to internet radio or even satellite radio rather than screw around d/l tunes that I can't use or take with me.

FlamDrag
Feb 5, 2004, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by arn
<snip>This is on-demand streaming. "I want to listen to XYZ". And download the song you want to your computer and listen to it (from your computer) as much as you want.

arn

no no no - you mean YYZ (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=260945&selectedItemId=260883), not XYZ. :cool: