Palin hung in effigy in Halloween display.

[atszyman]

Now that it's been brought to our attention, let's discuss the issue rather than use it to accuse us of being biased.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-palineffigy28-2008oct28,0,541630.story

A West Hollywood Halloween display showing a likeness of Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin hanging by a noose has caused a furor among some residents who reported it as a hate crime, authorities said Monday.


I find the display distasteful, dispicable and should be condemned. While part of a Halloween display it goes beyond the bounds of good taste.

I'm sick of the idea that we should fear any candidate in the election. They work for us, damnit. They put forth what they, and their advisors, see as the best course for our country to take and it's up to us as the voters to do our homework and decide which version we agree with more. The idea that we should fear either candidate is ludicrous and counter productive. Neither candidate wants to see the U.S.A. fail, and both will do their best to get us on the right track. While concern, or worry, over where their policies will take the country may be warranted, outright fear should not be part of the political discourse.

From another article (http://www.reuters.com/article/sarahPalin/idUSN2733220120081028).

Earlier a cardboard likeness of Obama was strung up from a tree at an Oregon university

The biggest difference I see here, is by placing the effigy in a public place anonymously contains more of a veiled threat, and it would be equally as despicable to do it to either of the GOP candidates in this manner. As it stands the story is about someone who did this at their own home, not only do we know who did it, people know where they live and if any threat is perceived via the display the homeowner should be prosecuted. As it stands it looks as though there is no perceived threat at which point free speech should be protected no matter how despicable the message.

I'd like to see an official condemnation from the Obama campaign.

As a side note, in a hotbed of Liberalism, wouldn't a display of McCain at a podium with the Presidential Seal behind him and Palin at his side be more scary?

[iShater]

I think it is more than distasteful, if we didn't read about/see who did it, I'd say these people are very close to threatening the safety of candidates.

Or they are just hateful people ... both displays.

Can't wait for "civility" to make a comeback past the elections ... :o

[deriko100]

Thanks for posting thats a weird halloween house lol.

[leekohler]

As I said in Delta's little thread, It was a stupid thing to do.

[Peace]

Wasn't this topic closed a few minutes ago in another discussion ?

[EricNau]

I already said it in the other thread, but to reiterate, I don't believe this display was done out of hatred. Rather, in an attempt to be clever, I believe they just severely underestimated the seriousness of their actions.

It was stupid, very very stupid, but I don't think there was any intent beyond a Halloween display.

[iShater]

I already said it in the other thread, but to reiterate, I don't believe this display was done out of hatred. Rather, in an attempt to be clever, I believe they just severely underestimated the seriousness of their actions.

It was stupid, very very stupid, but I don't think there was any intent beyond a Halloween display.


I dunno, hanging anything by a noose is a pretty hateful statement. The McCain one was clever IMHO.

[EricNau]

I dunno, hanging anything by a noose is a pretty hateful statement. The McCain one was clever IMHO.
Yet people do it for Halloween all the time.

[Blue Velvet]

Wasn't this topic closed a few minutes ago in another discussion ?

That wasn't the topic of the other thread. This one is fair game.

[mkrishnan]

Wasn't this topic closed a few minutes ago in another discussion ?

It was closed because the intent of the previous thread was clearly not discussion. Does anyone really have interest in discussing it now? The opinion seems to be fairly resounding from both liberals and conservatives that it was a reprehensible action.

[DakotaGuy]

It is terribly distasteful no matter your political opinion. If I walked outside and my neighbor had a mannequin that looked like me with a noose around it's neck I would be extremely upset.

Some things are not funny no matter the intent.

[rdowns]

Pretty effed up. Shows the arsehole-ness has no party affiliation.

[gibbz]

I'll play devil's advocate here.

It is pretty interesting where society draws the line on things. On Halloween, think of all of the ghastly and gory things people put on display. Dismembered and butchered bodies, blood and guts, ghosts, etc.. Think off all the haunted houses and scenes depicted there. If someone were to put any of that out on any other day, they would be considered a freak. Yet on this one day, we deem it ok.

Did you ever think what those displays might do to people who were affected by a crime, say if their relative were brutally murdered? No. we don't care because it is generic in our minds. Yet the second that the display depicts someone known to the masses, well then whoa, that is out of line and reprehensible and born of hatred. The display was meant for Halloween and simply put someone from popular culture in to gather attention. Who cares? If someone wants to string up a fake Joe Biden, whatever. If someone wants to string a mannequin of me up, well I hope I look realistic. People need to get off of their high-horse, self-righteous pedestal.

[EricNau]

Pretty effed up. Shows the arsehole-ness has no party affiliation.
I'm not sure they deserve such strong condemnation. One should not be condemned for intent which was not intended.

None of us know for sure what their intent truly was, but after hearing them speak, I'm inclined to believe that they're just ignorant.

What they really need is a smack upside the head.

[mrwizardno2]

I agree with Gibbz. I don't see what the big deal is. If the neighbor wanted to put up one that looked like me - I don't think anyone would have made a stink, but whoa, look, it looks like she who must not be named... this is bad!

I have to say get a life, there are bigger things to worry about. How is it even a threat to the candidates? It's not like the creators had any intent on actually carrying out the act on the real woman - and if you seem to think so, how do you know? You read minds?

[atszyman]

I have to say get a life, there are bigger things to worry about. How is it even a threat to the candidates? It's not like the creators had any intent on actually carrying out the act on the real woman - and if you seem to think so, how do you know? You read minds?

That does become the big question. Although, I'd argue that someone who hangs it outside their own home and claims responsibility probably does not intend it to be any sort of threat.

Hung in effigy in a public place anonymously could be construed as a threat should the perpetrator be caught.

If my neighbor decided to use my likeness in a Halloween display I'd probably have no issues, If someone hung a likeness of me in a park near our house, I'd be much more concerned.

I started the thread because the other one was closed before some of us got to voice our opinions, and the intent was definitely not discussion of the issue, but instead a commentary on the forum posters and our lack of condemnation of a story many of us had not seen.

[freeny]

While a die hard liberal, I would still assume the reaction to an Obama hanging would have been different and brought about an overwhelming outrage reaction, even if it were only in the "spirit of Halloween"...

Yes I know there is history...

This is in bad taste at best...

If this were not done so close to a heated election, it most likely wouldnt have the same impact.

[SLC Flyfishing]

Yet people do it for Halloween all the time.

Yes but not with replicas of real people. That's where the line was crossed in my opinion. Whether or not these people intended this to mean anything, it's inappropriate. Would you feel the same if it was an effigy of your grandmother hanging from that noose?

SLC

[mactastic]

Stupid and deliberately offensive.

[belvdr]

I cannot see why anyone would view this as good behavior. The joys of free speech...

[Thomas Veil]

Talk about a bad idea. Emotions are running hot enough, so joke or not, this is not good.

The biggest difference I see here, is by placing the effigy in a public place anonymously contains more of a veiled threat, and it would be equally as despicable to do it to either of the GOP candidates in this manner. As it stands the story is about someone who did this at their own home, not only do we know who did it, people know where they live and if any threat is perceived via the display the homeowner should be prosecuted. As it stands it looks as though there is no perceived threat at which point free speech should be protected no matter how despicable the message.Well, you make some good points. It may not have the racial connotations of a lynching, but it's still ridiculous to bait the neighborhood with something like this. It's just too offensive.

OTOH, haven't we all seen right-wing nuts who put enormous hand-made signs in their yard with messages of anger and bile? If they're considered free speech, I guess so is this.

Still, I think the mayor has the right attitude on this: it's deliberately provocative and inviting trouble, and for everyone's good, it should be taken down.

I have to admit, though: that effigy does bear a really creepy resemblance to another Halloween classic:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_wkpXQh0cBS0/RoNn87yyrZI/AAAAAAAABK0/nQk8T2rJAn8/s400/omen_2.jpg

[freeny]

I have to admit, though: that effigy does bear a really creepy resemblance to another Halloween classic:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_wkpXQh0cBS0/RoNn87yyrZI/AAAAAAAABK0/nQk8T2rJAn8/s400/omen_2.jpg

Yes, but she did it all for Damien.

[EricNau]

. . . deliberately offensive.
To be fair, you can't know that. Some people do stupid things without realizing the full ramifications of their actions.

Reminds me of a comment made by Eugenie Scott: we can't look into the hearts of others to see if they're being intentionally deceptive (or in this case, offensive).

[Iscariot]

I'm not sure, I kind of feel like this should be an invocation of Hanlon's razor. I have to agree with the Sheriff's department rep in the video "It's Hallowe'en, it's a visual prank" and "I'm not defending this [and] I'm not criticizing it."

[EricNau]

Palin Mannequin On Noose Cut Loose (http://www.kcra.com/news/17845034/detail.html)

WEST HOLLYWOOD, Calif. -- Amid a growing frenzy of protesters and media surrounding his home, ChadMichael Morrisette decided his noosed Sarah Palin mannequin should be cut loose.

He and his partner had created the effigy of the GOP vice presidential hopeful three weeks ago and vowed to keep it outside their home until Halloween, despite widespread criticism from neighbors and local officials.

On Wednesday, the mayor convinced Morrisette the mannequin should come down.

"I explained to them that this could be dangerous to you and your neighbors," said Mayor Jeff Prang, noting that he received hundreds of venomous e-mails from people offended by the display.

"They were totally unprepared for this kind of international attention, for the amount of impact on their home and their neighborhood."

Besides a constant flow of angry callers, the homeowners had received a visit from the Secret Service and criticism from a Los Angeles County supervisor who ordered an investigation into whether the effigy constitutes a hate crime.

On Monday MSNBC host Keith Olbermann dubbed Morrisette "today's worst person in the world."

On Wednesday, neighbors covered up the Palin mannequin with sheets, and more protesters showed up later in the day accompanied by a man driving a vehicle adorned with an effigy labeled "Chad," with a noose around its neck, said sheriff's spokesman Steve Whitmore.

"There was a huge mob scene," Morrisette told the Los Angeles Times. "The whole thing became a life of its own."

Prang said he drove by after work and saw protesters and media around the home with helicopters overhead. Morrisette saw the mayor and waved him inside for a talk.

Afterward, the mannequin came down, but Morrisette kept the rest of his Halloween decor intact, including a display of Palin's running mate John McCain popping out of a flaming chimney.

Despite all the angry protests, Morrisette said he bears no resentment toward his neighbors or television personalities who criticized him.

"I'm not angry at them," he said. "I respect their rights."

Now, here's the real question: who's acting with the most malice, the creators or the protestors? ...The answer seems pretty clear to me.

[wordmunger]

While a die hard liberal, I would still assume the reaction to an Obama hanging would have been different and brought about an overwhelming outrage reaction, even if it were only in the "spirit of Halloween"...

Interesting... actually Obama has been hung in effigy several times during the campaign, and clearly this Palin incident has attracted much more outrage. Much of the outrage about the Palin effigy seems to be saying just what you have said -- there would have been more outrage if it was Obama.

But we can just look at the record and see that this is not the case. Why are people *more* outraged about Palin? Why are they so certain there would have been more outrage if it had been Obama? I'd honestly like to know the answer to that question.

[Aranince]

What would happen if I hung Obama? Oh wait, I would probably get a riot in front of my house for being racial. How ridiculous these double standards are between blacks and whites.

[geese]

What would happen if I hung Obama? Oh wait, I would probably get a riot in front of my house for being racial. How ridiculous these double standards are between blacks and whites.

I was never aware of the KKK hanging white-middle aged women.

[Aranince]

I was never aware of the KKK hanging white-middle aged women.

Okay...what does the KKK have to do with anything? Because the KKK did something, makes it ok? Sounds childish to me.

[freeny]

Okay...what does the KKK have to do with anything? Because the KKK did something, makes it ok? Sounds childish to me.

I believe they were referring to the history of the KKK and its intimidation of blacks and minorities through lynchings.
It appears that this history has desensitized you to the image of a black man hanging, but the image of a white woman has brought your outrage...

[geese]

Okay...what does the KKK have to do with anything? Because the KKK did something, makes it ok? Sounds childish to me.

Christ almighty do..... never mind.

The reason why its deemed more offensive to have effigies of black people being hung then, say, white or latino people is because there in the USA (mainly the south I believe) there was a history of nasty men in white robes who went by the name of the 'Klu Klux Clan'.

Now these nasty 'KKK' liked doing unpleasant things such as 'lynching'. This involved kidnapping black people and hanging them until they were dead.

This is what the KKK is famous for doing, and is a painful reminder to black people of their history and how they were treated in the USA in the bad 'o' days.

Hence the 'double standard', as you put it.

[Aranince]

Christ almighty do..... never mind.

The reason why its deemed more offensive to have effigies of black people being hung then, say, white or latino people is because there in the USA (mainly the south I believe) there was a history of nasty men in white robes who went by the name of the 'Klu Klux Clan'.

Now these nasty 'KKK' liked doing unpleasant things such as 'lynching'. This involved kidnapping black people and hanging them until they were dead.

This is what the KKK is famous for doing, and is a painful reminder to black people of their history and how they were treated in the USA in the bad 'o' days.

Hence the 'double standard', as you put it.

Ok, and this happened how many hundreds of years ago? How do you know I would endorse such activity?

America: Its okay to hang white people, but don't even think about doing it to black people.

[freeny]

Ok, and this happened how many hundreds of years ago? How do you know I would endorse such activity?

America: Its okay to hang white people, but don't even think about doing it to black people.

Actually, lynchings have been documented up to the 1930's and even later-
http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/ACLAText/USLynch.html

So there are a good portion of people from that time that are still alive and the memories still fresh in their minds... There have been occurences just in the past few years of similar lynchings-
http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/06/dragging.death.02/index.html

No one is saying its ok to hang either.:confused:

[leekohler]

Ok, and this happened how many hundreds of years ago? How do you know I would endorse such activity?

America: Its okay to hang white people, but don't even think about doing it to black people.

How many hundreds of years ago? Do you know your history? A lot of that stuff happened as recently as the 60's.

And who here said that it was OK to hang white people? Haven't we all condemned this?

[Aranince]

The KKK is a group and does NOT represent any majority of Americans. To use that argument is simply ridiculous.

[TheAnswer]

Ok, and this happened how many hundreds of years ago?

Hundreds of years? Try ten years ago, 1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Byrd,_Jr.). Though not from a tree, from a moving car.

[atszyman]

Interesting... actually Obama has been hung in effigy several times during the campaign, and clearly this Palin incident has attracted much more outrage. Much of the outrage about the Palin effigy seems to be saying just what you have said -- there would have been more outrage if it was Obama.

But we can just look at the record and see that this is not the case. Why are people *more* outraged about Palin? Why are they so certain there would have been more outrage if it had been Obama? I'd honestly like to know the answer to that question.

Part of the problem is where to direct the outrage at the Obama effigies since they were done, afik, anonymously. This one was very easy to direct outrage since not only do we know who did it, everyone knows where they live so there is a focus point for their outrage.

Now whether or not Obama supporters would have reacted as vehemently had an Obama effigy been done as part of a halloween display, is questionable, but it is hard to deny that anyone who did it would be labeled as racist in some way.

Of course to remain in parity the Obama display would have had Obama in the flaming chimney, and Biden hanging from the noose.

[freeny]

The KKK is a group and does NOT represent any majority of Americans. To use that argument is simply ridiculous.

So that makes them irrelevant?

Obama's "terrorist pals" represent an even smaller minority of the US population...

[Aranince]

So that makes them irrelevant?

No not at all. It means that they shouldn't be the justification for this Palin thing.

[leekohler]

No not at all. It means that they shouldn't be the justification for this Palin thing.

What? Who said that? Your ability to twist people's words is incredible.

[Aranince]

I was never aware of the KKK hanging white-middle aged women.

What? Who said that? Your ability to twist people's words is incredible.

I said what is with this double standards of hanging a white person and hanging of a black person. People replied and used the KKK as the reason.

[Iscariot]

Ok, and this happened how many hundreds of years ago? How do you know I would endorse such activity?

America: Its okay to hang white people, but don't even think about doing it to black people.

The KKK is a group and does NOT represent any majority of Americans. To use that argument is simply ridiculous.

No, it isn't. You would probably understand it better if we had a great analogy using an offensive-to-white-people act, but fortunately I can't come up with any instances of widespread and deadly racial discrimination against white people in your nations history.

Hanging a black person would be as offensive as, say, a Hallowe'en display of Vietnamese in mass graves, or Jews in gas chambers. Being sensitive to the oppression of a minority isn't ridiculous or a double-standard, it's showing a modicum of decorum.

If instead of hanging specifically, you Obama's zombie body rising from the grave, you'd probably hit the same controversy level.

[IJ Reilly]

Crude and tasteless is crude and tasteless. Must we slice this into degrees?

[leekohler]

I said what is with this double standards of hanging a white person and hanging of a black person. People replied and used the KKK as the reason.

I'd say that's a damn good reason then. Like I said, study your history- especially the history of the last century. Then maybe you'll understand.

And again- no one here said it was OK to hang white people except for you.

[freeny]

I said what is with this double standards of hanging a white person and hanging of a black person. People replied and used the KKK as the reason.

There is no way you can win this argument. Do some research and get back to us...

[Scepticalscribe]

I would argue that the current administration is possibly the worst government ever inflicted by a western democracy on their own people; an appalling administration, and it is difficult to express the utter contempt with which it is held throughout the globe.

I sincerely hope that the American electorate use their electoral franchise next week to rid the world of this frightful government, by rejecting the truly dreadful ticket which the Republican party have offered to the US electorate. McCain is ominous, and Sarah Palin, is, frankly, unnerving.

However, I must say that I find the burning of effigies of candidates in such a manner, to be deeply disturbing. It panders to the politics of the illogical, the power of illiterate passions and the intense "high" of hate. Book burning provokes the same profound unease in me.

Your country is a democracy, with many fine and inspiring traditions, along with some horrible parts embedded in its history; (yes, the KKK, but also witch-burning). Don't pander to one at the expense of the other. Address the frightful arguments - if they can be called such - and beliefs of Sarah Palin and her fellow-travellers, with fact, logic, belief in rational, liberal and tolerant perspectives, not with equal intolerance disguised as flames pretending to be Halloween celebrations.

Cheers