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skunk
Oct 28, 2008, 05:14 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-republicans-dirty-secret-torture-975452.html
Allen West oversaw the brutal treatment of an Iraqi. Now he is running for Congress
Tuesday, 28 October 2008

In August 2003, Colonel Allen West – commanding a US unit in Baghdad – heard a rumour that one of the Iraqi policeman he was working with was a secret insurgent. He ordered his officers to go and seize Yehiya Hamoodi, a thin, bespectacled 31-year-old, from his home. They dragged him into a Humvee, beat him, and then handcuffed, shackled and blindfolded him. In a dank interrogation room, they told him he had better start talking.
Perplexed and terrified, Yehiya explained he didn't know what they were talking about: why was he here? So West was called in. He told Yehiya he was going to be killed. While his men beat him again, he explained he had one last chance to save his life – by talking.
Yehiya protested: I am innocent! What are you talking about? So West took him outside, had him pinned down, and began to shoot. First he fired into the air. Then he ordered his men to ram Yehiya's head into a barrel used for cleaning weapons – and fired right next to his head. Then he began to count down from five. Finally Yehiya began to scream out names – any name he could think of, just to make it stop.
The men he named were seized and roughed up in turn. No evidence was found of any plot, and after another 45 days of terror, Yehiya was released. Today, he is severely traumatised, and collapses when he sees a Humvee approaching. The story only came to light after one of West's soldiers began to protest against these practices, and the Pentagon launched an investigation. At a pre-trial hearing, West was fined $5,000, and now concedes grudgingly: "It's possible I was wrong about Mr Hamoodi." But he says he would do it again, and again, and again.
West has even taken to joking about it, gaining applause for telling Republican audiences: "It wasn't torture. Seeing Rosie O'Donnell naked would be torture." But the 1994 Convention Against Torture, to which the US is a signatory, is explicit: "Threat of imminent death" is the third form of torture it outlaws. There are reams of studies showing it can traumatise a person for life.
Yet the Republican Party has rallied to the defence of this torturer, and of torture in general. The Bush administration has ordered the simulated drowning of "high-value" suspects, and set up secret black ops sites across the world where it is practiced. After Afghan detainees were hanged from the ceiling and beaten to death, the officers responsible were merely given a "letter of reprimand".
West's "toughness" is fawned over; one leading conservative magazine has even named him its Man of the Year. And Sarah Palin, the Party's darling, mocks Barack Obama's opposition to torture. She complains: "Al-Qaida terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America [and] he's worried that someone won't read them their rights." Palin is fond of saying that she "won't blink when it comes to terror", but if you don't blink, your corneas dry out, and you go blind.
At first, the rise of John McCain looked like a repudiation of torture. McCain was tortured by the Viet Cong for three years, and the beatings were so vicious that even today he can't raise his arms to brush his own hair. For a time, he was a loud, proud opponent of torture – but then he caved. In February 2008, he voted to allow the CIA to be excluded from the ban on torture – when he knows the CIA who are the prime American torturers today.
Then, when the Supreme Court ruled that Guantanamo detainees have basic habeas corpus rights, McCain called it "one of the worst decisions in the history of the country." If McCain will compromise on this, he will compromise on anything. He has tried to flip-flop back, saying he would ban torture after all, but if he tried now, he would face mass rebellion from his own party and Vice-President. It is unthinkable he would permit war crimes tribunals of the Party colleagues who ordered this torture.
The advocates of torture love to wheel out the ticking bomb scenario served up every week on 24. But think about what it requires. You have to (a) be certain you have captured a bomber in the very brief window between him planting a bomb and it blowing up, yet (b) have no idea where the bomb is. This has never happened, anywhere in the world, ever.
No: what happens in reality is Yehiya Hamoodi. You get a man you kinda-sorta suspect; you torture him; and you get junk intelligence leading you up wrong paths. What would you confess to if I put a gun to your head and started counting down from five?
Once you start to torture it doesn't just stay in the neat mind-experiments favoured by philosophers. After the Israeli supreme court approved torture in very limited circumstances, soldiers were soon torturing two thirds of the Palestinians they held captive. Professor David Luban explains: "Escalation is the rule, not the aberration. Abu Ghraib is the fully predictable image of what a torture culture looks like."
The almost casual acceptance of torture by the present Administration at least, if not by the Party it represents, in spite of repeated findings of fact which make it quite clear that it has never yielded results, is puzzling. To see the "culture of torture" so openly represented seems to plumb new depths.



belvdr
Oct 28, 2008, 05:36 PM
I think that depends on how deep the pit is. I don't think we have seen the bottom yet.

IJ Reilly
Oct 28, 2008, 05:43 PM
I wonder if you could get any more shameless than this smarmy piece of editorial excess.

I've having a difficult time determining the actual subject of the piece. Is it about a right-wing Republican in Florida, who probably won't beat the Democratic incumbent? Is it about McCain? Torture? Is it about Sarah Palin, who apparently this writer is certain is not only the "darling" of the party but will be "taking the party" is some known direction in 2012?

What a bird-walk. He needs to give his crystal ball a rest.

skunk
Oct 28, 2008, 05:59 PM
I wonder if you could get any more shameless than this smarmy piece of editorial excess.

I've having a difficult time determining the actual subject of the piece. Is it about a right-wing Republican in Florida, who probably won't beat the Democratic incumbent? Is it about McCain? Torture? Is it about Sarah Palin, who apparently this writer is certain is not only the "darling" of the party but will be "taking the party" is some known direction in 2012?

What a bird-walk. He needs to give his crystal ball a rest.It's not all that difficult to work out that this is about torture and how easily it is accepted by a sizeable chunk of the population. Calling it a "smarmy piece of editorial excess" really contributes very little.

IJ Reilly
Oct 28, 2008, 06:09 PM
It's not all that difficult to work out that this is about torture and how easily it is accepted by a sizeable chunk of the population. Calling it a "smarmy piece of editorial excess" really contributes very little.

More than the piece did, I'm afraid. You should note that no evidence for how "sizable" the support for torture is in the country is provided. His evidence for this is mainly limited to one Congressional challenger in Florida, and some unsupported suggestions about Sarah Palin's view, and (even more fancifully) her future influence within the GOP -- none of which adds up to anything. This evidence doesn't even rise to the anecdotal level. Sorry, but this piece doesn't pass the logic test. It's a perfect example of shotgun journalism.

Thomas Veil
Oct 28, 2008, 09:58 PM
The Republicans will have plenty of opportunity for soul-searching after the wipe-out that is expected next week. They have, of course, the option to go back to their roots, to the party they were before the 1980s. That party didn't have a great platform either, but next to the neos it looked positively enlightened.

If they choose instead to further embrace the kind of craziness we see from this West character, we may find that many parts of the country that are considered "safely red" will be run by total wackos, and the rest will be pushed further into the arms of the Democrats.

I hope this doesn't come to pass. Even if it does drive more people to the Democratic party, it will mean the further polarization of America. And that won't only mean more hatred and divisiveness, it'll mean that every four years there'll be a chance that somebody like Palin or this sicko West might, just might, become president.

kavika411
Oct 28, 2008, 10:36 PM
Thank you for the post. Very, very interesting editorial. I am glad to see that the PRSI forum is embracing commentary articles. I was under the mistaken impression that editorials were frowned upon. Glad I was wrong.

Home > Opinion > Commentators > Johann Hari

skunk
Oct 29, 2008, 04:01 AM
Thank you for the post. Very, very interesting editorial. I am glad to see that the PRSI forum is embracing commentary articles. I was under the mistaken impression that editorials were frowned upon. Glad I was wrong.The PRSI Forum has always had space for opinion pieces, being as it is largely a forum for the exchange and development of opinions. Please feel free to start your own, entirely fact-based thread, however.

leekohler
Oct 29, 2008, 09:46 AM
The PRSI Forum has always had space for opinion pieces, being as it is largely a forum for the exchange and development of opinions. Please feel free to start your own, entirely fact-based thread, however.

I gotta go with IJ on this one. I don't like it when conservatives post editorials, and I like it even less when centrists or liberals do it. I'm not interested in some writer's opinion. I'm interested in presenting facts in here, and then getting our opinions on them.

skunk
Oct 29, 2008, 10:01 AM
I'm interested in presenting facts in here, and then getting our opinions on them.Strangely, that does not seem to apply when the subject is religion, the death penalty or torture. Why with this subject? These things are fundamentally matters of opinion. Anyone can bring facts to the discussion if they feel it helps one argument or another. The facts contained in the article I posted were (a) that the candidate is an unrepentant torturer, (b) he is standing as a Republican candidate, and (c) his constituency appears to support the candidacy of such douchebags. Three salient points, in my opinion.

leekohler
Oct 29, 2008, 10:08 AM
Strangely, that does not seem to apply when the subject is religion, the death penalty or torture. Why with this subject? These things are fundamentally matters of opinion. Anyone can bring facts to the discussion if they feel it helps one argument or another. The facts contained in the article I posted were (a) that the candidate is an unrepentant torturer, (b) he is standing as a Republican candidate, and (c) his constituency appears to support the candidacy of such douchebags. Three salient points, in my opinion.

If those are the points you wish to make, aren't there plenty of unbiased, fact- based articles out there to support those points?

skunk
Oct 29, 2008, 10:15 AM
If those are the points you wish to make, aren't there plenty of unbiased, fact- based articles out there to support those points?Not in our MSM over here. I didn't realise that "unbiased" was a requirement. I have a particular issue with the death penalty, wars of choice and torture, as you may have noticed: this article addresses at least two of those issues.
If you have a counter-argument to present, be my guest, but a fact-based guest, of course.

leekohler
Oct 29, 2008, 10:21 AM
Not in our MSM over here. I didn't realise that "unbiased" was a requirement. I have a particular issue with the death penalty, wars of choice and torture, as you may have noticed: this article addresses at least two of those issues.
If you have a counter-argument to present, be my guest, but a fact-based guest, of course.

Skunk, we're on the same side here. But you know as well as I do that lots of members here like to post editorials as if they were facts. I don't care for that, and I know you don't either. It just makes us look bad when we turn around and post an editorial piece. That's my only point. IJ has already pointed out the problems with it.

TheAnswer
Oct 29, 2008, 10:27 AM
I think opinion articles are ok, as long the OP makes it clear that they are treating it as an opinion. A lot of trouble tends to arise when the rest of the forum members are unclear if the OP is unwisely accepting the opinion piece with the same gravitas as a traditional piece of journalism.

When an opinion piece is posted, I'd personally like to see a more comprehensive lead-in and analysis (whether you agree with the main point of the piece or not). Even if it's just a particular point you found particularly convincing, a new take on an old subject, etc.

skunk
Oct 29, 2008, 10:33 AM
I have edited out a couple of paragraphs, leaving the fact-based core of the article. I believe the remaining part is worth reading. You may disagree, but the posted section is no more opinion-based than most articles posted here for discussion. Discuss, if you want. Move on if you don't.

IJ Reilly
Oct 29, 2008, 11:21 AM
I gotta go with IJ on this one. I don't like it when conservatives post editorials, and I like it even less when centrists or liberals do it. I'm not interested in some writer's opinion. I'm interested in presenting facts in here, and then getting our opinions on them.

I don't necessarily object to the posting of editorials. I thought this one was very poorly reasoned.

Scepticalscribe
Oct 29, 2008, 02:34 PM
Strangely, that does not seem to apply when the subject is religion, the death penalty or torture. Why with this subject? These things are fundamentally matters of opinion. Anyone can bring facts to the discussion if they feel it helps one argument or another. The facts contained in the article I posted were (a) that the candidate is an unrepentant torturer, (b) he is standing as a Republican candidate, and (c) his constituency appears to support the candidacy of such douchebags. Three salient points, in my opinion.

Agreed and well worth drawing our attention to. In the light of so much else that has happened recently, I had forgotten this particular feature and preferred policy of the (hopefully outgoing) Republican Government. Editorials can often serve as a sort of focussing point to draw out further discussion and argument on the topic.
Cheers