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skunk
Oct 29, 2008, 02:48 PM
Somebody will probably complain that this is an opinion piece. Be that as it may, I am astonished that, if the following is true, it has not been properly addressed even now. The millions spent on campaigns, the inspirational speeches, the general appetite for change, the last eight years of unconstitutional criminality, the profiteering, smears, war crimes and everything else will all be rendered completely irrelevant if the votes are miscounted, or, worse, stolen. Why has this not been sorted out?

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/openhouse/2008/10/the-vote-grab-1.html
The Vote Grab: Voting machines are unreliable and inaccurate
By Peter Tatchell

As early voting in the US presidential elections gets underway, ES&S iVotronics touch-screen electronic voting machines have been observed in four separate states flipping the votes – mostly from Barack Obama to John McCain but sometimes to third party candidates too. This has already occurred during early voting in the states of West Virginia, Tennessee, Missouri and Texas.

A county clerk in West Virginia invited a video crew to watch his demonstration of the reliability of the disputed voting machines but instead he saw the machine flipping the votes, as critics claimed. He put this down to the faulty calibration of the voting machine. However, even after he recalibrated the machine it continued to flip votes. Watch the video here:

This is further evidence that the electronic voting machines that will be used in the 4 November election are not reliable and accurate – that they are prone to malfunction and may not record the actual vote winner.

Democrats are not the only people who are worried. Stephen Spoonamore, a Republican security expert, explains why electronic voting is inherently unsafe in an eight part series of interviews. You can watch Part 1, and access Parts 2 to 7, here.

Writing in the New Statesman way back in 2004, reflecting on criticisms of the electronic voting systems used in the presidential election that year, Michael Meacher MP pointed out that statisticians, academics and political analysts had highlighted significant voting differences between electoral districts that used paper ballots and those that used electronic systems. These cannot be explained by random variation. The investigators found a much larger variance than expected and in every case it favoured George W Bush over John Kerry. In Wisconsin and Ohio, the discrepancy favoured Bush by 4 per cent, in Pennsylvania by 5 per cent, in Florida and Minnesota by 7 per cent, in North Carolina by 9 per cent and in New Hampshire by a whopping 15 per cent.

Research by the University of Berkeley, California, revealed election irregularities in 2004 in Florida. These irregularities, all of which were associated with electronic voting machines, appear to have awarded between 130,000 to 260,000 additional votes to Bush.

The discrepancies between paper and electronic voting could be the result of simple technological glitches. But some experts detect something more sinister: outright vote fixing by interference with voting machine and tabulation software.

Meacher reported that Diebold company voting machines and optical scanners may not be tamper-proof from hacking, particularly via remote modems. Diebold machines were used in counting a substantial proportion of the 2004 votes and will be used again in next week's presidential poll.

Two US computer security experts, in their book Black Box Voting, state that "by entering a two-digit code in a hidden location, a second set of votes is created; and this set of votes can be changed in a matter of seconds, so that it no longer matches the correct votes".

This is entirely possible, according to Clinton Curtis, a Florida computer programmer. He has confirmed that in 2000 he designed an undetectable programme for Republican congressman Tom Feeney. It was created to rig elections by covertly switching votes from one candidate to another to ensure a predetermined ballot outcome. See a video of his sworn testimony here.

As Robert F Kennedy Jr, nephew of JFK, has exposed, the US is one of the few democracies that allow private, partisan companies to secretly count votes using their own proprietary software.

Moreover, the vast majority of western democracies have independent Election Commissions to oversee voting methods and corroborate the results. The US does not.

Most election ballots next week will be tallied or scanned by four private companies - Diebold, Election Systems & Software (ES&S), Sequoia Voting Systems and Hart InterCivic.

According to Kennedy:

Three of the four companies have close ties to the Republican Party. ES&S, in an earlier corporate incarnation, was chaired by Chuck Hagel, who in 1996 became the first Republican elected to the U.S. Senate from Nebraska in twenty-four years - winning a close race in which eighty-five percent of the votes were tallied by his former company. Hart InterCivic ranks among its investors GOP loyalist Tom Hicks, who bought the Texas Rangers from George W. Bush in 1998, making Bush a millionaire fifteen times over. And according to campaign-finance records, Diebold, along with its employees and their families, has contributed at least $300,000 to GOP candidates and party funds since 1998 - including more than $200,000 to the Republican National Committee. In a 2003 fund-raising e-mail, the company's then-CEO Walden O'Dell promised to deliver Ohio's electoral votes to Bush in 2004."

Is it right and proper for partisan pro-Republican companies to count the votes? It is certainly not objective and impartial.

Kennedy recounts how computer scientists at Johns Hopkins and Rice universities conducted an analysis of the Diebold voting machine software source code in July 2003. "This voting system is far below even the most minimal security standards applicable in other contexts… (it is) unsuitable for use in a general election," the scientists concluded.

"With electronic machines, you can commit wholesale fraud with a single alteration of software," Avi Rubin told Kennedy. He is a computer science professor at Johns Hopkins who received $US7.5 million from the National Science Foundation to study electronic voting. "There are a million little tricks when you build software that allow you to do whatever you want. If you know the precinct demographics, the machine can be programmed to recognize its precinct and strategically flip votes in elections that are several years in the future. No one will ever know it happened."

Electronic voting machines not only break down frequently, their security and integrity is also easily compromised, says Kennedy:

"In October 2005, the US Government Accountability Office issued a damning report on electronic voting machines. Citing widespread irregularities and malfunctions, the government's top watchdog agency concluded that a host of weaknesses with touch-screen and optical-scan technology 'could damage the integrity of ballots, votes and voting-system software by allowing unauthorized modifications'…Locks protecting computer hardware were easy to pick. Unsecured memory cards could enable individuals to 'vote multiple times, change vote totals and produce false election reports.'

An even more comprehensive report released in June by the Brennan Center for Justice, a nonpartisan think tank at the New York University School of Law, echoed the GAO's findings. The report - conducted by a task force of computer scientists and security experts from the government, universities and the private sector - was peer-reviewed by the National Institute of Standards and Technology. Electronic voting machines widely adopted since 2000, the report concluded, "pose a real danger to the integrity of national, state and local elections." While no instances of hacking have yet been documented, the report identified 120 security threats to three widely used machines - the easiest method of attack being to utilize corrupt software that shifts votes from one candidate to another.

There is no evidence that the voting machine malfunctions, flaws and security risks identified in the 2004 ballot have been fully corrected in time for the 2008 vote. This calls into question whether the 4 November ballot will reflect the will of the American people.
As Kennedy concludes:

"You do not have to believe in conspiracy theories to fear for the integrity of our electoral system: The right to vote is simply too important - and too hard won - to be surrendered without a fight. It is time for Americans to reclaim our democracy from private interests."



BoyBach
Oct 29, 2008, 02:52 PM
What's wrong with good ol' fashioned using a pencil to put an 'X' next to the candidate and then counting the ballots by hand system of voting?

skunk
Oct 29, 2008, 02:53 PM
What's wrong with good ol' fashioned using a pencil to put an 'X' next to the candidate and then counting the ballots by hand system of voting?Well, obviously it's no good because you can't cheat. Duh!

és:
Oct 29, 2008, 02:54 PM
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ra0auEa6rEs

abijnk
Oct 29, 2008, 03:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q9NSVUu8nk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5F-sXW6tCM

direct youtube links for peoples

skunk
Oct 29, 2008, 03:41 PM
Thanks for posting the links. What is astonishing to me is that this is the third election where these machines have been used, the first two were deeply suspect, yet so few Americans appear to care. If this happened anywhere else, there would be total outrage, yet in the home of the most powerful democracy in the world the registering and counting of the vote seems to be subverted with impunity. Can anyone explain this? So far abiyng87 is the only American even to have responded to what is probably the most important political question there is.

it5five
Oct 29, 2008, 03:48 PM
Any American going to vote should demand a paper ballot. If you ask for one, even if your voting site uses electronic machines, you must be given one. Thankfully we don't have that problem where I'm voting. All I have to do is fill in an arrow pointing to a name to vote. Ask for a paper ballot people, please.

That we are still using these voting machines after 2 questionable elections is sick. Hopefully with a Democratic majority (unless these voting machines do the job they were likely designed to do: give votes to Republicans) something will be done about their use, but I won't hold my breath. Private corporations have absolutely no place near a ballot box, and they have absolutely no right to count votes in secret.

abijnk
Oct 29, 2008, 03:54 PM
Thanks for posting the links. What is astonishing to me is that this is the third election where these machines have been used, the first two were deeply suspect, yet so few Americans appear to care. If this happened anywhere else, there would be total outrage, yet in the home of the most powerful democracy in the world the registering and counting of the vote seems to be subverted with impunity. Can anyone explain this? So far abiyng87 is the only American even to have responded to what is probably the most important political question there is.

It is simply a statement to the apathy of the voters in this nation.

I am a computer science major in college, and have taken just enough security classes to be acutely aware that the fundamentals of computing security don't mesh with the concepts of voting. That electronic voting machines even exist blows my mind. There will always be someone smarter than you, always. And this means that no matter what you do, the things are going to be hackable.

Now, Skunk, if you have any spare emotion to send our way PLEASE do so immediately. The American people are far to complacent when it comes to voting. We want to get all hot and bothered when there is even a whiff of something that could be considered a threat to our democracy, but we as a people are all too willing to turn a blind eye to this crap.

I find that a lot of people my age see this too, but our voices haven't been acknowledged or respected in the world of politics because for too many years our age group has been the one with the lowest turnout. This is one of the big reasons I like Obama. I don't want to credit it all to his comparative youth, but he has been able to start a fire under the butts of a lot of 20-somethings, you know, the ones who will be running this country in the not-so-distant future. Perhaps if he is elected it will help vindicate our place in politics and help put a stop to these atrocities.

Or, perhaps, I am wholly naive and idealistic. :o

rdowns
Oct 29, 2008, 04:40 PM
Why the American people are not up in arms over this amazes me. Too many Americans take their voting rights for granted. Sad.

Until this election, I voted in NYC all my life. The machines (lever style) used there are the same ones that were used when I was a kid. I'm 46 now. While some have been replaced, many are in widespread use. IIRC, they stopped being made in the early 80s. I have no idea what to expect when I go to vote in the county I now live in.

The problem is that we have no national standard for voting or voting machines. Rules are made at the state, city and county level. It's way to easy for the party in power to stack the deck in their favor. Ballots are poorly designed, voting rules vary widely and poll workers are ill equipped to handle even the most minor problems.

The drawback to adopting a national standard or monopoly is that if a way to exploit it becomes available, we're effed. Could also stifle better technologies.

I don't have answers but I'd like to see a national commission put together to lay out a plan before we go off half-cocked and spend money without really defining the problems and solutions.

skunk
Oct 29, 2008, 04:56 PM
Practically no other country even uses "technology" in their major elections. Why do it at all except to facilitate fraud and line some donors' pockets? Almost every other self-respecting democracy uses election observers, too.

chrmjenkins
Oct 29, 2008, 05:00 PM
And now, my friends, it is time for this:

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/diebold_accidentally_leaks

Blue Velvet
Oct 29, 2008, 05:00 PM
Practically no other country even uses "technology" in their major elections. Why do it at all except to facilitate fraud and line some donors' pockets?

I've read elsewhere that it has also been encouraged by the TV networks to get the counts done quickly and to call states quickly, to keep viewing figures up and call a winner asap. Take that with a pinch of salt, but I thought I'd throw it into the mix.

MacNut
Oct 29, 2008, 05:00 PM
We now use paper scan ballots here. The vote is tallied electronically but there is a paper trail.

There was a paper trail in Florida too and look how that turned out.:rolleyes:

t0mat0
Oct 29, 2008, 05:02 PM
I've read elsewhere that it has also been encouraged by the TV networks to get the counts done quickly and to call states quickly, to keep viewing figures up and call a winner asap. Take that with a pinch of salt, but I thought I'd throw it into the mix.

Sounds almost Athens Olympicsesque...

MacNut
Oct 29, 2008, 05:06 PM
Why the American people are not up in arms over this amazes me. Too many Americans take their voting rights for granted. Sad.

Until this election, I voted in NYC all my life. The machines (lever style) used there are the same ones that were used when I was a kid. I'm 46 now. While some have been replaced, many are in widespread use. IIRC, they stopped being made in the early 80s. I have no idea what to expect when I go to vote in the county I now live in.We had those big voting monsters in CT for a long time too. They got rid of them last year. I talked to a guy that repaired them and he said they were the most reliable fail safe system there was.

He also said the problems in Florida in 2000 could have been resolved if they emptied the chad trays every hour. Thanks to their ignorance we have new machines.

Abstract
Oct 29, 2008, 09:59 PM
Stealing political signs off of lawns, and cheating the voting system is about the most undemocratic, un-patriotic thing you can do for your country.

Disgraceful. I can't believe your country's election is such a sham.

I think McCain's chances of winning aren't as low as people believe, particularly if cheating is involved. These 5% and 10% discrepancies are HUGE.

freeny
Oct 29, 2008, 10:54 PM
Stealing political signs off of lawns, and cheating the voting system is about the most undemocratic, un-patriotic thing you can do for your country.

Disgraceful. I can't believe your country's election is such a sham.

I think McCain's chances of winning aren't as low as people believe, particularly if cheating is involved. These 5% and 10% discrepancies are HUGE.

If McCain somehow wins and there is even the tiniest smell of fraud, I am pretty certain, there will be widespread riots.
Tensions are high... Things will get ugly.

nanofrog
Oct 29, 2008, 11:48 PM
Disgraceful. I can't believe your country's election is such a sham.

I think McCain's chances of winning aren't as low as people believe, particularly if cheating is involved. These 5% and 10% discrepancies are HUGE.
Personally, this is where I think the "It's not over yet" sentiment is coming from in the McCain campaign.

Rigged before the candidates were even officially nominated. :rolleyes:

Rodimus Prime
Oct 30, 2008, 12:12 AM
while I think the error is not good in the machines. I do see from a programing side how it could happen. If I remember the last ballet right I saw I quite often see either it is the Repiblican canidate as the top choice or it was the incombit.

So we will give Rep (Bush) #1 and the Dem (#2) The error is I could see how it could easily end up subtracting number or some error being made where it loses track of the number there for it going to default to #1.

That would cause the vote go to the wrong person.

It not an acceptable error but I can easily see this as being a simple computer problem that needs to be worked out. I think they need to have a paper trail to back them up. Like have it print out your ballet after you choose it with a code matching it to YOUR vote ballet in the computer. If it does not match or you realized you screwed up you could have it remove the vote and allow it to change. Much like the current system with paper ones. Realize it is not what you want you can take the paper ballet to the officals and they give you a new one. The only link to which vote is which is the paper trail one. You turn in the paper trail so if they have to there is a hard copy.

I like the electriconic voting for the sole reason is it is faster and less work to count the votes. Just all the bugs need to be removed. In the long run they are cheaper since much MUCH less man power has to be paid. Also it will gain the advatage of not requiring everyone to go to only certain poling places. Instead you could vote at any poling place in the state and it would pull up the correct ballet for where you are registered. This would be great for college students since they could vote on home town stuff with out having to go though a huge absently voting ballet, role pain in the ass.

Plus it would be nice for me for example because I could vote while on lunch at work instead of having to leave early enough to make it to a polling place in time to vote. It would make for a better voting turn out.

SMM
Oct 30, 2008, 12:47 AM
Thanks for posting the links. What is astonishing to me is that this is the third election where these machines have been used, the first two were deeply suspect, yet so few Americans appear to care. If this happened anywhere else, there would be total outrage, yet in the home of the most powerful democracy in the world the registering and counting of the vote seems to be subverted with impunity. Can anyone explain this? So far abiyng87 is the only American even to have responded to what is probably the most important political question there is.

Skunk, while apathy does exist at various levels, I think there is a larger issue at work. In the 2000 election, Americans were forced to acknowledge the full extent of lawlessness, which had taken hold of the country. Not only was the Florida Attorney's General a participant in the crime, the DoJ was as well. And, to top it off, the US Supreme Court turned a blind eye to this obvious circumvention of the Constitution.

I note that many of our European friends know a great deal about America. Certainly more than we do of them. However, one would have to actually live here to truly appreciate just how bad things have become. Far too many Americans have lost their faith, and confidence, in our judicial system. Where can you turn, if corruption exists at every level? it is a sorry state of affairs, but I would not view it as general apathy.

skunk
Oct 30, 2008, 04:22 AM
while I think the error is not good in the machines. I do see from a programing side how it could happen.If you can see how easily a mistake can be made, WHY USE A MACHINE?

It not an acceptable error but I can easily see this as being a simple computer problem that needs to be worked out. I think they need to have a paper trail to back them up.If a paper trail is needed, WHY USE A MACHINE?
I like the electriconic voting for the sole reason is it is faster and less work to count the votes. Just all the bugs need to be removed. In the long run they are cheaper since much MUCH less man power has to be paid.Accuracy should be the only criterion, not money. WHY USE A MACHINE? Also it will gain the advatage of not requiring everyone to go to only certain poling places. Instead you could vote at any poling place in the state and it would pull up the correct ballet for where you are registered. This would be great for college students since they could vote on home town stuff with out having to go though a huge absently voting ballet, role pain in the ass.We can vote anywhere, and our polling centres are only open for one day. Why can't you make this system work?

és:
Oct 30, 2008, 04:30 AM
If McCain somehow wins and there is even the tiniest smell of fraud, I am pretty certain, there will be widespread riots.

And so there should be. It'll be time for people to rise up.

chrmjenkins
Oct 30, 2008, 12:56 PM
As far as I know, all electronic voting machines have paper trails, and it is part of the requirement. However, documenting a mistake with no indication the person voted the other way is as good as no paper trail in this case.

skunk
Oct 30, 2008, 01:04 PM
As far as I know, all electronic voting machines have paper trails, and it is part of the requirement.Not so: the system is still wide open to abuse.
WASHINGTON--Democratic senators on Wednesday made another push for banning electronic voting machines that lack paper trails, but they've backed away from doing so in time for next year's presidential election.http://news.cnet.com/2100-1014_3-6198789.html

atszyman
Oct 30, 2008, 01:17 PM
I think they need to have a paper trail to back them up. Like have it print out your ballet after you choose it with a code matching it to YOUR vote ballet in the computer. If it does not match or you realized you screwed up you could have it remove the vote and allow it to change. Much like the current system with paper ones. Realize it is not what you want you can take the paper ballet to the officals and they give you a new one. The only link to which vote is which is the paper trail one. You turn in the paper trail so if they have to there is a hard copy.

I like the electriconic voting for the sole reason is it is faster and less work to count the votes. Just all the bugs need to be removed. In the long run they are cheaper since much MUCH less man power has to be paid. Also it will gain the advatage of not requiring everyone to go to only certain poling places. Instead you could vote at any poling place in the state and it would pull up the correct ballet for where you are registered. This would be great for college students since they could vote on home town stuff with out having to go though a huge absently voting ballet, role pain in the ass.

Plus it would be nice for me for example because I could vote while on lunch at work instead of having to leave early enough to make it to a polling place in time to vote. It would make for a better voting turn out.

I voted via electronic machine and I have a fair confidence that it will be counted. TX does not require a paper trail, but the last screen before I cast my ballot listed all of my choices with the option to go back if I didn't agree with what it said. As for machine failures or conspiracies to rig the election, I don't see those as any more likely than boxes of ballots disappearing, or ballot box stuffing. The number of people required to actually setup machines to rig the election would almost surely find an opportunistic whistleblower who would rat out the system, and the same rigging could be accomplished in whatever electromechanical system was used to tally the punch cards or optical scan ballots.

I would like to see the future move to open source online voting. Give each voter their anonymous registration number that they use to go vote and store keep the records in an open database that allows anyone to go back and find their vote and modify it at any point until election day passes. Leave the database openly accessible so that anyone with an inkling can download and tally the votes if they have that desire (how many of us here would have more confidence in our elections when we knew that Doctor Q was tallying the results to verify). Keep everything open so anyone can scrutinize the software or results to find any discrepancies. Not to mention, voting and verification of your vote can be done anywhere you have a computer with net access, and polling places would only need internet terminals rather than these proprietary voting machines.

Scepticalscribe
Oct 31, 2008, 03:43 PM
Thanks for posting this, skunk. A compelling thread and matter of vital mportance. I agree completely about the proven dangers of this system - look no further than the disgrace of Florida in 2000 - and have grave reservations about the democratic bona fides of any Governemnt which persists with (or seeks to introduce) such a system.

I have worked as an election observer all over the Balkans and the former Soviet world for more than a decade, with the OSCE and am familiar with flagrantly flawed elections (and genuinely touching first-time fair and free elections). When I returned from Kosovo in 2000, my students teased me, suggesting that my expertise in election supervision/monitoring might have been more suitably deployed in Florida.

Pen and paper work. Properly supervised, and observed, there is no better system for running an election. It's cheap, fair, accurate and presents an irrefutable proof, not just of the ballot, but of the right to rule arising from the recorded casting of that same ballot.

Cheers

Lord Blackadder
Oct 31, 2008, 03:50 PM
I'm actually voting absentee, since I'm working out if state. Of course, the problem with an absentee ballot is that any perceived irregularity (up to the discretion of election officials) will bump my ballot to a provisional one, and I probably won't have my vote counted till after the election has been decided.

I agree that there is really no compelling reason to use electronic voting machines - the convenience isn't worth the risk of another stolen election.