waitaminute... i thought Nationalized Health Care is supposed to be better

[Frohickey]

Surgeons Close Wounds with Paperclips (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=573&e=4&u=/nm/20040205/od_nm/health_paperclips_dc)

LONDON (Reuters) - British surgeons are endangering patients by using paper clips to close wounds and tongue depressors as splints for babies, a government agency said Tuesday.

The Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency said it had uncovered an increasing trend for doctors to use medical devices in ways they were not meant to be used, and also "adapt nonmedical products for clinical purposes."

Such misuse can put patients' health at serious risk, it said.

"For example, use of tongue depressors in a neonatal intensive care unit as limb splints led to two deaths and one amputation because of fungal infection," the agency said.

Surgeons were closing wounds with paper clips and urinary catheters. Others were using wooden clothes pegs to clip devices that measure the pulse on to patients' earlobes, or using fake fingernails to fix cuts on the nail bed.

"The use of a device in these circumstances exposes users and patient to unknown and therefore unacceptable risks and may have legal and ethical implications," it said.

[DavisBAnimal]

What does this have to do with Nationalized Health Care? Couldn't the same thing theoretically be happening in hospitals over here?

I don't see how the system over there is causing this problem - is it cause the system doesn't provide enough money for doctors to have access to real equipment?

Davis

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by DavisBAnimal
What does this have to do with Nationalized Health Care?

Nothing really, it's just a taunt. Last year I read a story about a surgeon in Brazil who performed emergency brain surgery on a man with a power drill he bought in a hardware store and a pair of pliers he kept in his car.

[numediaman]

For the record: the World Health Organization ranked health care quality by country. Here are their rankings:

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan

The U.S. ranked 37th -- just ahead of Slovenia.

If I hear one time that "we have the world's best health care system" I think I will puke.

By the way, the U.K. was ranked 18.

[wwworry]

I bet you could buy a lot of health care for people with the $25 million Scrushy stole at Heathsouth.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by numediaman
For the record: the World Health Organization ranked health care quality by country.

to your knowledge, is widespread availability used as a factor in the ranking? what about affordability?

[numediaman]

Yes. They use the term "fairness" -- which they define as equal access to care, and equal care. That is where the U.S. fell down. The U.S. spends more per capita on health care than any other country, but provides unequal care and unequal access to care.

[pseudobrit]

Yes, socialised medicine is a shambles.

So go to Ethiopia and get some good old capitalist medicine instead.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by numediaman

4 Andorra


Aren't those the blue-skinned people with the antennae on their heads?

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by numediaman
Yes. They use the term "fairness" -- which they define as equal access to care, and equal care. That is where the U.S. fell down. The U.S. spends more per capita on health care than any other country, but provides unequal care and unequal access to care.

Hehehe... time for another game of 'Name the person that made this quote".

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

[IJ Reilly]

Churchill, but who cares?

[zimv20]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Churchill, but who cares?

Mrs Churchill

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Churchill, but who cares?

The real question is how drunk was he at the time he said it?

[3rdpath]

Originally posted by Sayhey
The real question is how drunk was he at the time he said it?

hmmm....somewhere between george bush and nick nolte.....

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by 3rdpath
hmmm....somewhere between george bush and nick nolte.....

If I remember my history, Winston was one of those folks you had better get early in the day. ;)

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by zimv20
Mrs Churchill

:)

Ok, so we're supposed to be shocked to discover that Winston Churchill wasn't a socialist? Well then, I'm shocked, truly shocked. And so is Mrs. Churchill, and the rest of the Churchill family.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Sayhey
The real question is how drunk was he at the time he said it?

Heh... another form of an ad hominem attack in order to deflect the argument.

Lets say that is was an anonymous quote, how do you rebut that?

[Taft]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Heh... another form of an ad hominem attack in order to deflect the argument.

Lets say that is was an anonymous quote, how do you rebut that?

I'd rebut it by saying it is a silly oversimplification of the truth. I could just as easily reword it to be "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of miseries; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of blessings." This statement isn't any more true than Churchil's, but I bet it doesn't sit as well with your world view.

If you are getting your outlook from mottos, quotes and pert remarks, you have a very stereotypical and grossly simplistic view of the world. *

Which leads to an interesting question...can the previous statement (the one annotated with the asterik) possibly have any real worth?

Taft

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Heh... another form of an ad hominem attack in order to deflect the argument.

Lets say that is was an anonymous quote, how do you rebut that?

It was a joke! Churchill was indeed an alcoholic, but he was much, much more. Some of his record, particularly the leadership in unifying the British people and showing courage under fire during the war, is much to be admired.

Do you want to argue that socialism means misery for all? Or do you want to argue in capitalism the inequality of wealth means there must be misery for some? As Taft has said, it is far to simple a message to be used as an analysis of either capitalism or socialism.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Sayhey
Churchill was indeed an alcoholic, but he was much, much more.

Yeah, he was also a child molester.

(Note: this is also a joke.)

Anyway, sophisticated efforts at humor notwithstanding, a one-liner is not an argument, it's just a one-liner.

[mactastic]

Link (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/7887107.htm)
Speaking of Churchill...
Winston Churchill predicted World War I two years before it broke out, Library of Congress scholars discovered in a newly unearthed collection of the British prime minister's letters.

The letters to Churchill's cousin, the Duke of Marlborough, have not been seen in decades, even by scholars, Librarian of Congress James H. Billington said.

As first lord of the Admiralty in 1912, Churchill updated his cousin on the war between Turkey and an alliance of Balkan states. Churchill took a stand against the Turks.

''But the European situation is far from safe and anything might happen,'' he wrote. ``It only needs a little ill will or bad faith on the part of a great power to precipitate a far greater conflict.''

Two years later, the assassination of Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand provided the spark that Churchill foresaw. Turkey took Germany's side in the war, and a bloody, unsuccessful campaign against Turkish territory cost Churchill his Cabinet post.

[jayb2000]

Every year, the government estimates tens of thousands of Americans die from mistakes by doctors or nurses -- operating on wrong patients, prescribing incorrect drugs or even leaving surgical instruments inside patients.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/05/cnna.med.mistakes/index.html


Nearly five years after an Institute of Medicine report put medical mistakes on the public's radar screen, two UCSF Medical Center physicians have published a groundbreaking discussion of why errors occur and what health care providers and leaders must do to cure this epidemic.

The book, Internal Bleeding: The Truth Behind America's Terrifying Epidemic of Medical Mistakes, was published today by Rugged Land Publishers, New York.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/index.php?newsid=5696


Even if you remove the lack of universal and easy access, we still do not have the best system.

My sister-in-law is a Docter and she talks about how difficult her job is, not because of "government bureaucracy" but because of the tangle of different insurers and the lack of comprehensive care that causes people to only go to the doctor (usually the emergency room) when they are really sick.
A 5 dollar immunization shot costs far less than a round of anti-biotics or a hospital stay for influenza.
If everyone had decent affordable medical insurance, the overall costs would drop.

[mactastic]

And I thought market-driven health care was supposed to be better!

Every year, the government estimates tens of thousands of Americans die from mistakes by doctors or nurses -- operating on wrong patients, prescribing incorrect drugs or even leaving surgical instruments inside patients.

[Neserk]

Originally posted by numediaman
Yes. They use the term "fairness" -- which they define as equal access to care, and equal care. That is where the U.S. fell down. The U.S. spends more per capita on health care than any other country, but provides unequal care and unequal access to care.

Tell me about it... the good news is I should have basic health care in about a week :D My student loans come around the 17th of February and I can by student health insurance including free visits to the health clinic on campus! YEAH!

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by mactastic
And I thought market-driven health care was supposed to be better!

And thats why there is malpractice insurance, another market-driven solution for the problem of inept or careless physicians.

Now, if only there was a central repository of malpractice insurance claims and premiums paid by doctors, patients would have more information when they start their search for a physician.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Frohickey
And thats why there is malpractice insurance, another market-driven solution for the problem of inept or careless physicians.

Then I take it you disagree with the Bush administration's push to limit malpractice liability?

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Frohickey
And thats why there is malpractice insurance, another market-driven solution for the problem of inept or careless physicians.

Now, if only there was a central repository of malpractice insurance claims and premiums paid by doctors, patients would have more information when they start their search for a physician.

Now you're being silly. My point was that your initial post to this topic was so tangentially linked to the NHC issue as to be useless as a basis of discussion. All I can think is that you are simply trying to antagonize people with posts like that.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
Then I take it you disagree with the Bush administration's push to limit malpractice liability?

I haven't read too much about Bush's proposal, but in theory, its a good idea to limit the awards to actual harm done, and not punitive awards.

I also think that we should have tort reform, where loser pays. That ought to clamp down on frivolous lawsuits.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Frohickey
I haven't read too much about Bush's proposal, but in theory, its a good idea to limit the awards to actual harm done, and not punitive awards.

I also think that we should have tort reform, where loser pays. That ought to clamp down on frivolous lawsuits.

So you would be amenable to only going after what people owe the IRS, and not levy punitive fines on them above what they owe? Not allowing credit card compaines to apply punitve charges for going overlimit on your account? How about limiting criminals to repaying the actual cost of damage instead of punishing them for what they did? I mean if I beat the crap out of you, but it only costs you $10 (since you have insurance ;) ) to get patched up, why should I go to jail? I should just give you the $10 and be on my way, right?

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Frohickey
I haven't read too much about Bush's proposal, but in theory, its a good idea to limit the awards to actual harm done, and not punitive awards.

Why? If lawsuits and malpractice insurance are the market force to balance bad medicine, then why would you allow limits on what the market decides?

You've said yourself that the market is never wrong, is it so in this case?

BTW, Bush's proposal puts a quarter-million dollar cap on the liability.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
Why? If lawsuits and malpractice insurance are the market force to balance bad medicine, then why would you allow limits on what the market decides?

You've said yourself that the market is never wrong, is it so in this case?
For the same reason he's critical of labor unions -- they're a counter-balance to corporate power and influence, which makes them unholy. This is a working definition of crypto-libertarianism.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
This is a working definition of crypto-libertarianism.

Is that anything like crypto-nazism?

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by mactastic
Is that anything like crypto-nazism?
Uh, no -- except for the "crypto" part. :)

The philosophical libertarians I have known over the years are equally wary of both excessive government and excessive corporate power. The crypto-libertarians I have also known tend to be opposed to virtually all expressions of government and collective individual powers that thwart corporate influence and authority (all in the name of "free markets," of course). They like to call themselves libertarians, when in reality they're more nearly corporate-statists, e.g., the only legitimate exercise of government power is to protect and extend economic interests. In the old days, these people were called Whigs.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Uh, no -- except for the "crypto" part. :)


That's what I was hoping. :p

Certain aspects of libertarian thought intrigue me other parts amuse me, but at least they are intellectually honest about the amount of government the level of taxes they plan to collect will fund.

[IJ Reilly]

In some ways, I'm a philosophical libertarian. I do believe that if people behaved themselves voluntarily, and took care of the less fortunate in society voluntarily, we'd need few laws, no regulations and little in the way of taxation. But we have laws, taxes and regulations to the extent that people don't do these things voluntarily. What I don't believe is that some utopian society would somehow magically emerge if all taxes and regulations ceased, or that government powers should be used for the advancement of commercial interests and little else.

[Taft]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
In some ways, I'm a philosophical libertarian. I do believe that if people behaved themselves voluntarily, and took care of the less fortunate in society voluntarily, we'd need few laws, no regulations and little in the way of taxation. But we have laws, taxes and regulations to the extent that people don't do these things voluntarily. What I don't believe is that some utopian society would somehow magically emerge if all taxes and regulations ceased, or that government powers should be used for the advancement of commercial interests and little else.

I share that viewpoint.

For me, its really about limiting the government's control over my life while allowing them to protect the rights of its citizens and the survival of our race as a whole. But this is undeniably tricky. Where do we keep the government out of our lives and where do we let them in.

I guess I'm not foolish enough to believe that we would be better off living under total government control, but neither am I so foolish as to believe we would be better off under the whims of your average citizen.

Taft

[wwworry]

There is no form of government and no kind of society that can survive with evolving. (except some hunter gatherer societies which may have achieved an ideal equilibrium with their environment, but, alas, not for us. We smashed those hunter-gatherers.) Circumstances change. It is good to keep our ideals and recognise them for that. Fundementalist/absolutist approaches have never worked.

I meant to say it takes work and a lot of discussion to make a good society. Here's to us discussers!

[numediaman]

Lovely story.

Elderly man says he robbed bank to pay medical bills

GAINESVILLE, Florida (AP) --An elderly man told police he robbed a bank to pay his wife's medical bills.

His wife was behind the wheel of a getaway car Tuesday when the 71-year-old man ran from the bank, police said. Her doctor's appointment was scheduled a half hour later.

A dye pack exploded inside the bag of money, covering James Roland Clark as he left the bank. Clark and his wife, Deloris Jane Clark, 66, were arrested soon afterward, said Gainesville police Sgt. Keith Kameg.

Clark told police he threatened bank tellers saying he had a bomb, but it was actually a bag of sand, Kameg said.

The Alachua County Sheriff's Office Bomb Team detonated the bag of sand as a precaution.

"Even though he told us it was filled with sand, nobody wants to be the first person up to check," Kameg said. "If you allege it to be a bomb and you rob a bank with it, we're treating it like it's a bomb."

No one was injured during the robbery.

The couple was being held at Alachua County jail late Tuesday, charged with armed bank robbery. James Clark also faces a charge of threatening to discharge a destructive device.

James Clark has a federal criminal history dating back to 1954, Kameg said. Charges include bank robbery, mail fraud and conspiracy to grow and distribute marijuana, officers reported. He also had been sentenced in 1992 to 12 years in a federal prison on bank robbery charges.

Deloris Clark has no criminal history, Kameg said.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by numediaman

The Alachua County Sheriff's Office Bomb Team detonated the bag of sand as a precaution.

i love that sentence.

i betcha at least one prosecutor is tasked with looking at ways to make a terrorism charge stick.

[pseudobrit]

What is the problem here? This is just the natural reaction of the market trying to balance out the situation.

You can't pay your bills, so you die or rob a bank. Capitalism at its finest.