PDA

View Full Version : Upcoming G5, G6, G7


MacManiac1224
Nov 12, 2001, 06:57 PM
Just rad an article over at http://www.macosrumors.com, and it was pretty interesting:
-----------
At Apple, we are quite pleased with the way the G5 has progressed. As of noon, we received version 0.7 of the G5. Altivec performance is now at par with equivalent clock speed 7460's. We spent a late night Friday night fitting prototypes with the new revision, and spent the day saturday doing various tests.

Yields are now just at the commercially acceptable level. Good news is that clock speeds have been improved to the point where 1.6 Ghz chips will be in adequate quantities. Another clock speed record was also set: 1 chip tested at 2.8 Ghz, 2 tested at 2.6 Ghz, 13 tested at 2.4 Ghz, 13 tested at 2.2Ghz, and 54 tested at 2Ghz. This shows that the G5 has tremendous potential at reaching high frequencies, being this early in its life. This is in sharp contrast to Intel's Itanium, which when I spoke to an Intel engineer at the semiconductor forum, they still are not getting sufficient yields above 800Mhz, an yields on current processors are very, very poor, hence the steep price of the Itanium. Mckinley is not faring too well either, progress has not been very good on increasing its clock speed for release sometime next year. The aim is to speed bump the G5 to between 2Ghz and 2.4 Ghz for Macworld New York. Above 1.6 Ghz, the G5 will be produced in 400Mhz increments.

Apple could theoretically sign off now, but Jon Rubinstein wants to go through one more revision. All the critical bugs have now been worked out, but there are a couple of minor optimizations that will go into revision 0.8, which is due within two weeks. Likely, these slight optimizations will result in version 0.8 being declared 1.0, and mass production will go on throughout December to get a critical volume of chips for a Mid-December production run of Power Mac G5's.

Anyone considering buying a G5 better be forwarned: the chip price may mean that Apple may not be able to offer G5 Power Macs for the same price as current G4 models. There has been talk between Steve Jobs, Jon Rubinstein, and Phil Schiller about possibly offering 7460 G4's at the low end in the professional models in two configurations, which would also appease Motorola. Apple would have five models of pro desktops until G5 prices fall low enough to warrant having them in the low-end pro models. There is talk of two 7460 G4 models, and 3 G5 models. Talk is that the low end G5 model will sell for slightly more than the current 867Mhz G4. The G5 towers will also sport the quicksilver enclosure initially, which will be changed at Macworld New York. People should understand that even though the G5 is considerably more expensive than the G4, it is a steal considering that we are getting at least 60% overall instructions per cycle than Intel's Itanium, and that it is a 64-bit processor. The 32 bit version of the G5 will be solely targeted towards embedded applications, as 32-bit addressing is no longer adequate for desktop applications.

The long awaited LCD iMac will also make its debut at Macworld San Francisco. It will be available at up to 1Ghz, 900Mhz being the scenario should yields of IBM's next generation G3's not be sufficient enough at 1Ghz.

Steve Jobs has very ambitious plans for Apple's processor strategy. He recently said "We've been stuck with the G4 for over two years, that's too long". His intentions are that the G5 have a life of 18 months in the Pro models. He wants the G6 to hit initial silicon between next December, and February 2003, and release it in mid-2003. Initially, the G6 will be fabbed with a 0.1 micron process moving to .07(.065) micron. It will be built upon the HIP 8.0 process, which is still not quite finalized. It will feature Altivec II, which promises to at least double performance of the current Altivec. Early estimates are that it will contain over 100 million gates. The G6 will be introduced at between 4.5 and 5Ghz and scale up to 10 Ghz.

This week Apple has committed itself to going beyond the G6 to build a G7, and maybe beyond. Apple is looking at Motorola's recently announced Gallium Arsenide technology to give this chip insanely high clock speeds. Talk is the G7 could go as high as 20 Ghz. The G7 would debut in early to mid 2005. This renewed hope with the PowerPc architecture is in light of the fact that Cisco Systems has committed to being a significant customer of G5's for their high-end routers, and Silicon Graphics being in the last stages of abandoning development on its R16000 and R18000 processors as a cost-cutting measure. It looks very likely it will sign a commitment with Apple, IBM and Motorola within a month. It has prototype G5 chips in a prototype workstation of theirs, and is hard at work developing Irix 7.0 for the G5.

In terms of future G5 development, work is well underway on the 8510, which is a low-power SOI LoK dielectric version of the G5. It is due out in late Q4 2002, and it will be an IBM product fabbed with its 0.1 micron process. Work is also progressing on the 8550, which is due out Q1 2003. It will be a 0.1 micron chip built upon SOI LO-K dielectric. It is a candidate to receive Altivec II if it is completed in time.

Relationships between Apple and Motorola as of late could very well be described as Jeckyll and Hyde. Just three weeks ago, Steve Jobs said "I am going to sue the ass of those guys at Motorola. At the last minute, they f*cked us up. They told us we would have 1Ghz G4's, and days before Macworld, the ****ers told us there was a defect which would cause them to fail above 900Mhz." Days later, the relationship becomes cordial again when Motorola shows renewed interest when SGI and Cisco Systems start looking into the G5.
-------------
What do you guys think?

jefhatfield
Nov 12, 2001, 08:42 PM
the time to market takes so long from the chip "testing" phase to the computer store

when i was at the microsoft school, we were first hearing about the P4, then unnamed, with upper yields at 2.4 GHz, in march 2000

(the first microprocessor chip to hit 1 GHz did so in an ibm lab in 1997)

so i hope apple could be faster than that to market a machine with those speeds than those pc makers were with the intel chips

MattB
Nov 12, 2001, 10:13 PM
This is a lot of information that could have only come from inside Apple or one of it's vendors. I won't beleive it until I see it.

jefhatfield
Nov 13, 2001, 12:48 AM
speaking about too good to be true...

what is the deal with the "register", they make some really wild claims that it goes beyond just rumors, it's almost funny!

joey j
Nov 13, 2001, 01:17 AM
jefhatfield>what is the deal with the "register", they make some really wild claims that it goes beyond just rumors, it's almost funny!

1) no one mentioned the reg, unless i've missed it.

2) the reg's sources are solid.

3) this report sounds too conservative to be phony.

4) given that the perspective given is that of an apple hardware engineer of some description MOSR should know whether or not he is in fact an employee in the know (i.e. who he says he is).

ThlayliTheFierce
Nov 13, 2001, 02:05 AM
There is apparently one insider who keeps leaking info to MOSR and the Register about the current state of the G5 project. Usually they have the info up at about the same time, and it is the same info. This guy's reports have all been fairly conservative (except for this one-it goes a little beyond what I've read in the past), and both websites say that he (or she) has been accurate in the past. Just out of curiosity, Jef, what made you think of the reg?

jefhatfield
Nov 13, 2001, 08:22 AM
i had never heard of the register until i saw it mentioned here on macrumors

we will have to see if we get that super fast G5 soon...we are not even up to 1 GHz yet and that would make me happy enough for the moment

also other stuff i have seen on the register is way out there, but i will continue to read the register over time and see if predictions come true

i was a fan of appleinsider and i sometimes look at macosrumors, too

spikey
Nov 13, 2001, 10:52 AM
that sounds optimistic.
It doesnt say much about the supposed 64bit G5.
I thought motorolas semiconductor section was really behind the times, so how can they be looking at G6?
And it looks like the G4 apollo is out of the window.


Im not sure i believe everything from this guy, but some of the G5 stuff seems to fit.

Kela
Nov 13, 2001, 12:04 PM
Right. Ummm John123, you can come out now. Admit it, you created a new handle inorder to evade the usual thrashing you get when you try to be intelligent. G7?? Hold ur horses what about G5.

spikey
Nov 13, 2001, 12:31 PM
lol
nah john isnt the optimistic sort.

SPG
Nov 13, 2001, 12:32 PM
It's too hard to tell if this is true or not, but I hope they do come out with a G5 at MWSF. If they release a DP G5 I will buy one on the spot. I need one. I am getting tired of watching progress bars creep across the screen while doing compositing in Final Cut Pro.
This is what Apple needs.

Ensign Paris
Nov 13, 2001, 12:45 PM
LCD iMac - I Hope so, but not to sure
G5s - Certainly (Don't quote me after MWSF though!)
Lowend G4 - Most probably

guy

Kela
Nov 14, 2001, 04:14 AM
yeah then whats all this talk about G6 and G7. People, lets hope that by next summer (2002) we get the G5. Forget G6 and G7 for another decade.

jefhatfield
Nov 14, 2001, 09:44 AM
the way we are at dual 800 or single 867 now, the G6 and G7 may unfortunately be that far away like kela says

we are still using the G3 chip and that goes back to the emilio days of apple...at least gil emilio was a huge believer in getting that G3 thing to huge levels, otherwise sj's imac would have had a 604e processor at debut...which is still not a bad processor for that time

Kela
Nov 14, 2001, 10:59 AM
yes i mean I doubt G6 and G7 would even come out. Hopefully for god sake by the time the G7 debuts it is based on an entirely new technology like (hologram/crystal data bytes or a new conduction material). I mean, im tired of this 3 GHz and 4 Ghz, I WANT TERRA-GHZ!! and now!! You see in the future, it wont be about how fast a computer can run a certain application. The whole system will be connected to a faster than firewire internet. all apps will be stored on this huge cyberdine systems thingy and one will pay to licesence software for a limited time. One wont be ablt to buy it any more.

spikey
Nov 14, 2001, 11:47 AM
Wow, that future is really quite bleak. Will a robot assasin come from the future to kill bill gates?

Hey jef, congrats. your triple century.

SPG
Nov 14, 2001, 12:34 PM
A lot of people have been talking about the centralized system thing for a while, like since the 80's, but I think if that happens that will be a hard change for people to make. It's such a big shift in the way people think and behave that it may take a long long time. Corporations will be able to do it, they could probably do it right now if they wanted to or thought they could save a few bucks.
With processors getting faster adn cheaper, and with people loving the slightly illegal aspects of napster and limewire, the wholly owned personal computer will stick around for quite some time.

jefhatfield
Nov 14, 2001, 05:27 PM
centralized system could be a good idea but i hope it's not microsoft

also, thanks spikey...but i will never catch up to you since i have run out of stuff to talk about...at least for now

Ensign Paris
Nov 14, 2001, 05:34 PM
Even though Steve might have thoughts about the G6 and G7 but nobody even Steve can predict that far in the future!

G5s in JAnurary! We may have the MegaMhz Myth but lets SHOW THEM!

Guy

Kela
Nov 15, 2001, 07:30 AM
So umm SPG, does that mean Apple is using the mega hertz conversion to PCs? (i.e will the G5 list MHZ like intel does with its processors?????)???

- Kela

joey j
Nov 18, 2001, 01:01 PM
>It doesnt say much about the supposed 64bit G5.

"it is a 64-bit processor". <-- how much simpler does it have to be?


... and if you reread the article you'll notice the leak mentions next
that `32-bit addressing is no longer adequate for desktop applications'.
Now surely that puts the question of which G5 (32- or 64-bit) design we're
talking about beyond all question?

(i hate to tell you this, but when the rest of the mac world hears `G5',
they think 64 bit. you're the only person i've seen so far that hasn't
caught on)

In any case it doesn't matter a toss because a) 4 gb of ram is fine for
very close to all people, and will be for the next few years at least,
despite what the leak would suggest and b) i have good reason to doubt
leaky's credentials as this leak in particular keeps yapping about SGI's
ceasing development of the high-end MIPS. Erm, I though SGI spun MIPS off
a few years back? Unless SGI still has engineers working on the high-end
design. (hrmph, i'm stumped).


>I thought motorolas semiconductor section was really behind the times,

Don't believe everything you read. The G4 was merely a PITA to fabricate.
Why, i don't know, it just was. Granted, IBM, intel, amd, TSMC probably
all have niftier facilities, but this is microprocessors, in fabbing procs
there's no such thing as `behind the times', either you move with the flow
or you get hammered.

i.e. ****** g4 yields != out-of-date fabbing (erm, probably should be
does-not-necessarily-equal)

(behind the times? didn't moto just take out a swag of patents on some new
method? and GaAs this and that as per MOSR...)


> so how can they be looking at G6?

*shrug* upgrade your facilities. yeah, shareholders hate these
capital-intensive upgrades, but if moto wants to stay in the running they
have to do it.


> And it looks like

No, you [hope] the apollo is `out the window', for reasons unbeknownst to
those who don't smoke as much crack as you apparently do.


> the G4 apollo is out of the window.

"offering 7460 ... in two configurations"


>Im not sure i believe everything from this guy, but some of the G5 stuff
seems to fit.

The G5 stuff sounds conservative enough so i'll believe it. if i'm wrong,
then i wait for MWNY (if it's not out then, **** this, i'll buy a G4,
plenty fast enough anyway, with a decent graphics card).

However, if i'm right in my hunch that the G5 will be announced MWSF...
(well, ~january-february, so the most likely event would be MWSF, or maybe
the february MW, what is it, tokyo, IIRC) ... then i'm going to come back
and give mad **** to those that disagreed with me. Hrmph.

Catfish_Man
Nov 18, 2001, 10:04 PM
Most of the stuff about the G5 seems fairly reasonable, but the G6 and G7 is just someone reporting wishful thinking as fact (in my opinion). I don't know about the SGI stuff. I think the high price of the chip means no dual G5s even though the processor supports it. Hopefully they'll do that when the price drops some. I think that if their isn't an LCD Imac their'll be something equally spiffy; The Imac is getting old enough that people are starting to recommend not buying it. Too bad the G3 doesn't support multiprocessing... a dual 1Ghz LCD Imac would be a pretty spiffy computer.

joey j
Nov 19, 2001, 10:53 AM
>Most of the stuff about the G5 seems fairly reasonable, but the G6 and G7
is just someone reporting wishful thinking as fact (in my opinion).

It is distant, sure, but Apple has to be on the ball -- so I'm not
surprised at all that they'd be planning two generations ahead. There's
probably (an admittedly small, although the numbers will reverse soon, if
not in transition now) a G6 team, probably Apple engineers, Moto's having
mood swings with the G6 according to MOSR's sources as it would appear.


> I don't know about the SGI stuff.

SGI's bleeding to death. I doubt they could sustain an ISA transition like
this. Then again, if it's true (bear in mind that the MOSR source said
that a contract between apple/ibm/moto and sgi was `very likely' to be
official in a month) it would be a stunning indictment on behalf of the
PPC. ISA transitions are _big_ decisions -- you can't go back.


> I think the high price of the chip means no dual G5s even though the
processor supports it.

Let's say the processor costs $400 each in volume (outlandish given that
the 7410s are something like $180 at their max clockspeed, IIRC, so i'm
giving you the benefit of the doubt :p). Now R&D for a DP G5 has to be
made up, so let's say another $500 per unit. That's an extra $900 per
unit, but the only people who'd buy it are the ones who have mad wallets
to throw at their need for speed anyway -- real media pros, apple's core
markets.

However, the G5 has a multicored design, and there's been nary a peep from
any leak whatsoever as to the number of cores on the G5s Apple's been
testing. Perhaps apple could ship 2- or 4-cored G5s, that would be even
better than dual-proc boxes due to the increased bandwidth between the
cores. So multicoring would be more likely than dual processors.


> Hopefully they'll do that when the price drops some.

I'd rather have multicoring than dual procs. Of course, dual multicored
procs is even better ;). However given the choice i'd take multicoring
(due to the higher performance, duh =]).


> I think that if their isn't an LCD Imac their'll be something equally
spiffy; The Imac is getting old enough that people are starting to
recommend not buying it.

If that's true then there must be people who agree w/me that the imac is
in serious need of a big boost. LCD, big beasty G3 at least or preferably
7450/60 starting at 700-733 Mhz (preferably 800 Mhz) and... and i'm out of
ideas (that i want, anyway :p). What other features do we want in the
imac? Spit it out PEOPLE! What do we want? ;)


> Too bad the G3 do esn't support multiprocessing... a dual 1Ghz LCD Imac
would be a pretty spiffy computer.

The answer is the 7460 :p It will soak up the G4s Moto has been minting
for Apple lately (according to MOSR's source) and MP is a bonus if apple
wanted it. I doubt MP would make it into the imac, it's not needed (like
how many consumer-level machines need dual 700 mhz 7450s? how many need
dual 1 ghz 7460s?) and also, it's much like the clockspeed perception
problem (apple doesn't ship imacs of higher clockspeed than their G4s) --
people might think that the dual G4s are more powerful than the single G5,
even if the G5 is multicored.

-jay

AlphaTech
Nov 21, 2001, 11:22 AM
Come MWSF, I will be checking to see what is released for the desktops. I have two people interested in my 'tweaked' G4-500 now. Provided one of them buys it, I will be in the market for a replacement. Most likely, the fastest single processor G5 that hits the market. The only thing holding me back would be MWNY2002 since I will want to see what they do differently for the case. That is, unless they make a change for the G5 initial release. I think it would make sense to do that, to make it look different then the current G4. Something along the lines of when they went from the G3 blue and white to the G4.


How about we start a petition for the cyborg/robot assassin from the future to come and take out old bg?

Tommy!
Nov 21, 2001, 08:48 PM
Killing Bill Gates is a very good idea... When the police are looking for people with a motive to kill him, they can just interview every windows user...

spikey
Nov 22, 2001, 10:42 AM
nice try at flaming me joeyj.
Im really starting to get the feeling you are john123 in disquise.

"> And it looks like

No, you [hope] the apollo is `out the window', for reasons unbeknownst to
those who don't smoke as much crack as you apparently do. "

i didnt realise i smoked more crack than the next Mr average.
You are right i do hope the appollo is out the window, but im not the only one who wants that.



""it is a 64-bit processor". <-- how much simpler does it have to be? "

I was reffering to the relationship between the supposed 32 bit and the 64bit G5, there have been articles on 2 different versions of the G5. Apparently this one contradicts it.
I have woken up to the fact it is probably 64bit, its just you cant interprite my post without setting out wanting to flame me.



As for the appollo being out the window, the guy was so excited about the G5 and G6 it seemed as though he had forgotten the current situation for apple.
It was a comment on his writing style not what he actually said.


Nice try at breaking down my post joey, but you shouldnt set out with the intention to flame. It will only cloud your judjement.
Maybe you should read my post properly next time you ********** blind ******.

joey j
Nov 22, 2001, 02:27 PM
>nice try at flaming me joeyj.
Im really starting to get the feeling you are john123 in disquise.

erm, no, i'm not john123.


>>No, you [hope] the apollo is `out the window', for reasons unbeknownst
to those who don't smoke as much crack as you apparently do. "

>i didnt realise i smoked more crack than the next Mr average.

I never asserted that you smoked more crack than an average person ("next
Mr average"). People ("those") who don't smoke as much crack as you aren't
necessarily (colloquially speaking) `Mr averages'.

i.e. { `Mr average'(s) } is a set of people distinct from the set of those
who smoke more crack than you, { those-who-smoke-more-crack-than-spikey }.
[ we could shorten this for convenience to { TWSMCTS }, or even { +CS }
... etc. ]

The two groups do not necessarily overlap. Hence, you cannot invoke a
comparison to set { `Mr average'(s) } as the two do not have the same (or
even remotely similar) set of members.


>You are right i do hope the appollo is out the window, but im not the
only one who wants that.

And who else sides with you? And on what basis do you (plural or singular)
support the removal of the Apollo from Apple's processor lineup?


>>""it is a 64-bit processor". <-- how much simpler does it have to be? "

>I was reffering to the relationship between the supposed 32 bit and the
64bit G5,

spikey> "It doesnt say much about the supposed 64bit G5."

[meanwhile, the _whole_article_ "is about the supposed 64bit G5"]

MOSR article> "it is a 64-bit processor".

Where is this `relationship' between the two referred to? Rather, you
didn't read the article (hence my quoting it), you assumed the G5 (in the
incarnation that MOSR would be interested in, the desktop version) was a
32-bit processor.


> there have been articles on 2 different versions of the G5.

That's rather vacuous. The only appreciable difference between the two is
their address space.


>Apparently this one contradicts it.

In which way? And how is this contradiction `apparent'?


>I have woken up to the fact it is probably 64bit,

Or, if you read the post, you wouldn't be confused. Not that the term
`64-bit' _hasn't_ been bandied about ad infinitum amongst the various
camps (intel [ia-64, itanium, mckinley,], amd [claw||sledgehammer], moto
[64-bit G5], ibm [POWER series]...)


> its just you cant interprite my post without setting out wanting to flame me.

I didn't set out to flame you.


>As for the appollo being out the window, the guy was so excited about the
G5 and G6 it seemed as though he had forgotten the current situation for apple.
It was a comment on his writing style not what he actually said.

Hardly.

spikey> "And it looks like the G4 apollo is out of the window"

MOSR article> "possibly offering 7460 ... at the low end in the
professional models... in two configurations"

It is by now clearly obvious that you have asserted ("and it looks
like...") the precise opposite to the article. You said the apollo "is
out of the window", the article says, on the contrary, that Apple could
possibly be "offering 7460".

From this clear contradiction, I took your comment, then, to be a flight
of fantasy, hence my assertion "No, you [hope] the apollo `is out of the
window'".


>Nice try at breaking down my post joey, but you shouldnt set out with the
intention to flame. It will only cloud your judjement.

1) I did not "set out with the intention to flame"; the `crack' reference
was (intended to be) partly a subtle reference to your 7460 slip, and
partly a reference to the other thread where I present the case of the
7460 in the imac.

2) Precisely how could my judgement be clouded if I speak from the facts?


>Maybe you should read my post properly next time you ********** blind ******.

Rather, you should learn to 1) read articles which you reply to, _before_
replying to them, and 2) learn to spot contradictions prior to submission,
such as your obvious slip above regarding the 7460 being `out of the
window' when, on the contrary, the article asserts it being a possible
plan for the Pro models.

Once again, the irony in your comment is that you can't read other
people's posts (7460 slip above...) "properly". Or at all, but I'll grant
you the benefit of the doubt.

spikey
Nov 23, 2001, 12:08 PM
I never asserted that you smoked more crack than an "average person ("next
Mr average"). People ("those") who don't smoke as much crack as you aren't
necessarily (colloquially speaking) `Mr averages'.

i.e. { `Mr average'(s) } is a set of people distinct from the set of those
who smoke more crack than you, { those-who-smoke-more-crack-than-spikey }.
[ we could shorten this for convenience to { TWSMCTS }, or even { +CS }
... etc. ]

The two groups do not necessarily overlap. Hence, you cannot invoke a
comparison to set { `Mr average'(s) } as the two do not have the same (or
even remotely similar) set of members. "


Well thats all very well d**khead, but i didnt mean Mr avergae in that context. God damn you are so self obsessed.
By saying Mr average i was imlying that i am nothing special , i am just the same as an average person.
Stop trying to act all clever joey, it doesnt suit you, you are stupid. Everyone knows that you just use intellectual dialog to try and make yourself seem intelligent, it doesnt fool any of us joey. We have seen it all beofre with john. Why dont you just stick to phrases you actually understand f**khead, then atleast you wont make a fool of yourself each time you post on this forum.


"And who else sides with you? And on what basis do you (plural or singular)
support the removal of the Apollo from Apple's processor lineup? "

I forget his name, it was on the other hardware thread that we debated on. Not only that i know a hell of alot of friends who hate motorola and do not want to see the appollo.
I dont want the appollo because i dont want motorola to make any products for apple. they ahve made too many blunders.


there is more to a relationship between processors than which goes where in a hierarchy. You look at software compatibility, software versions, supposed pricing etc etc.
Why dont you criticise what i comment on when you KNOW somehting about macs, you clearly just use any excuse to criticise what i write. It doesnt work f***head, i know you are thick just because of that. You have nothing TO criticise, you are cr*p at it, those are the reasons why you talk sh**. You know nothing.



"> there have been articles on 2 different versions of the G5.

That's rather vacuous. The only appreciable difference between the two is
their address space. "

And if you would know something at all about address size it can mean all the difference, when it comes to sofware compatibility, performance performance difference, marketing strategy.
If you actually look at what follows on from changing a part of a processor f***face you ill notice that even the littlest change can make al the difference.


">I have woken up to the fact it is probably 64bit,

Or, if you read the post, you wouldn't be confused. Not that the term
`64-bit' _hasn't_ been bandied about ad infinitum amongst the various
camps (intel [ia-64, itanium, mckinley,], amd [claw||sledgehammer], moto
[64-bit G5], ibm [POWER series]...)"

LOL, god damn your thick. why dont you just shut your ********** face?
you make a fool of yourself, sh**head.
You havent got any criticism so you just make somthing up about me.
LOL, you are so pathetic. You dont even have the intelligence to back up your own statement, you just make a new one up, add a few fancy words and expect us to buy it.




"> its just you cant interprite my post without setting out wanting to flame me.

I didn't set out to flame you. "

You did, and you are ***** at it.





" It is by now clearly obvious that you have asserted ("and it looks
like...") the precise opposite to the article. You said the apollo "is
out of the window", the article says, on the contrary, that Apple could
possibly be "offering 7460".

From this clear contradiction, I took your comment, then, to be a flight
of fantasy, hence my assertion "No, you [hope] the apollo `is out of the
window'". "



wrong again d**khead, you cant take in the fact that you are wrong. Which is sad because thats all you are.
Infact you are so stuck up you cant even take in an explanation of whay you misinterprited a part of my post. You are stupid, just give up justifying what you said. And stop telling me what i have said and meant, because it doesnt work, people know you are grabbing for something that isnt there f***head so why dont you just admit that you are wrong. Every1 knows it, every1 has accepted it apart form you, you lead such a sad life you have to delude yourself from the truth, lol, you are such a little w**ker



"Rather, you should learn to 1) read articles which you reply to, _before_
replying to them, and 2) learn to spot contradictions prior to submission,
such as your obvious slip above regarding the 7460 being `out of the
window' when, on the contrary, the article asserts it being a possible
plan for the Pro models.

Once again, the irony in your comment is that you can't read other
people's posts (7460 slip above...) "properly". Or at all, but I'll grant
you the benefit of the doubt."



Wow still deluding yourself joey?
Your such a ********* fag**t.
I cant read posts properly???
LOL, thats alot coming from a little f**khead like you who cant accept that you are wrong so you TELL me what i meant in my post.

Your just a ********** little ***** joey, you are a pathetic sack of *****, you talk ***** you think ***** hence why you are just a malevolent little sack of *****.


Let me spell it out to you.

YOU ARE PATHETIC.

joey j
Nov 23, 2001, 01:39 PM
>Well thats all very well d**khead, but i didnt mean Mr avergae in that
context.

Do you usually make comments outside of the context in which they're
intended? (is that even possible?) Let's say someone asked you how their
hair looked and you said that it looked horrible, and upon asking you why,
you replied that you were speaking in the context of their cat or dog's
horrendously matted fur or something. Do you really do that?


> God damn you are so self obsessed. By saying Mr average i was
imlying that i am nothing special , i am just the same as an average
person. Stop trying to act all clever joey, it doesnt suit you, you are
stupid.

May I remind you that this `stupid' person managed to rebut your posts
point by point. If this poster is stupid, then what does that make the
person whom he rebutted?


> Everyone knows that you just use intellectual dialog to try and
make yourself seem intelligent,

I hardly think that rebutting your points counts as using `intellectual
dialog' to `make [myself] seem more intelligent'.


> it doesnt fool any of us joey.

So now you assert that you have many people on your side. A
usenet-inspired trick which I will describe in further detail below.


> We have seen it all beofre with john. Why dont you just stick to phrases
you actually understand f**khead,

I wouldn't use phrases which I didn't understand. Which phrases are these specifically?


>then atleast you wont make a fool of yourself each time you post on this forum.

I do? By replying to you?


>>"And who else sides with you? And on what basis do you (plural or
singular) support the removal of the Apollo from Apple's processor
lineup? "

>I forget his name, it was on the other hardware thread that we debated
on. Not only that i know a hell of alot of friends who hate motorola and
do not want to see the appollo.

... then apple can contract fabrication to IBM or some other company, once
the paperwork with motorola expires. Why is that such a big deal?


> I dont want the appollo because i dont want motorola to make any
products for apple. they ahve made too many blunders.

You once again demonstrate that you cannot distinguish between motorola's
elegant load/store processor architecture and the somewhat laggard fabs
from which they emerge.

"they [have] made too many blunders". The blunder in question is clearly
Motorola's inability to gain sufficient yields on high-clockspeed G4s (NOT
motorola's engineers, as you imply, for reasons which you have not yet
explained), the solution to which is more advanced fabrication facilities.



>there is more to a relationship between processors than which goes where
in a hierarchy. You look at software compatibility, software versions,
supposed pricing etc etc. Why dont you criticise what i comment on when
you KNOW somehting about macs, you clearly just use any excuse to
criticise what i write.

If you can't cope with having the flaws of your argument pointed out, I
suggest you not voice your opinion, lest fresh flaws be revealed.


> It doesnt work f***head, i know you are thick just because of that. You
have nothing TO criticise, you are cr*p at it, those are the reasons why
you talk sh**.

Rebutting you is to "talk sh**" now? I haven't done anything but rebut
your points, hence it must be this rebutting which causes your
aggravation. However, I can't see anything particularly aggrieving about
1) my replies specifically or 2) my method of replying [point-by-point].


> You know nothing.

A stunning indictment against you, given that I have been able to rebut
all of your points. If (as you assert) it follows from this (it
doesn't) that I "know nothing", then what does that say regarding you?


>And if you would know something at all about address size

You don't know what address space is, do you?


> it can mean all the difference, when it comes to sofware compatibility,

The G5 supports 32-bit addressing. Not surprising; in any case most 64-bit
versions of architectures are backwardly compatible with their 32-bit
incarnations.


> performance difference, marketing strategy.

`Marketing strategy'. Ah yes. As if the consumer (or even most pros) care
whether their processor addresses 4GB of ram or 2^64 bytes worth of the
stuff. Now tell me, since when has address space been a marketing strategy
of processor companies? It's only just coming to prominence now; you
mention it as if it were an ingrained tactic of processor marketing.

(32-bit address lookups [for backward-compat] by a 64-bit processor do not
exact an appreciable "performance difference".)


> If you actually look at what follows on from changing a part of a
processor f***face you ill notice that even the littlest change can make
al the difference.

Make all the difference to what? That's an vague statement which says
nothing.


>>>I have woken up to the fact it is probably 64bit,

>>Or, if you read the post, you wouldn't be confused. Not that the term
`64-bit' _hasn't_ been bandied about ad infinitum amongst the various
camps (intel [ia-64, itanium, mckinley,], amd [claw||sledgehammer], moto
[64-bit G5], ibm [POWER series]...)

>LOL, god damn your thick. why dont you just shut your ********** face?
you make a fool of yourself, sh**head.
You havent got any criticism so you just make somthing up about me.

I made up the fact that you didn't read the post?


>LOL, you are so pathetic. You dont even have the intelligence to back up
your own statement, you just make a new one up, add a few fancy words and
expect us to buy it.

I've already justified repeatedly where you erred.


>>It is by now clearly obvious that you have asserted ("and it looks
like...") the precise opposite to the article. You said the apollo "is
out of the window", the article says, on the contrary, that Apple could
possibly be "offering 7460".

>>From this clear contradiction, I took your comment, then, to be a flight
of fantasy, hence my assertion "No, you [hope] the apollo `is out of the
window'".

>wrong again d**khead, you cant take in the fact that you are wrong.

It looks perfectly clear to me. You asserted that the apollo was `out of
the window' when the article said the opposite. How was that interpretation wrong?


> Which is sad because thats all you are. Infact you are so stuck up you
cant even take in an explanation of whay you misinterprited a part of my
post.

You continually assert that I misinterpret your posts. Where? Give me one
misinterpretation of mine and its correct interpretation. I can't see your
`explanation' anywhere.


>You are stupid, just give up justifying what you said. And stop telling
me what i have said and meant, because it doesnt work, people know you are

Another thing I learned from usenet was that when people invoke the
apparent opinion of others ("people know you are...") they're usually beat
in a debate, and are trying to foment a mass of opinion against you (by
asserting that everyone else is against the other) in the (apparent) hope
that the fear hopefully generated will cause the poster in question to
back down (safety-in-numbers, i suppose). It doesn't work.


>grabbing for something that isnt there f***head so why dont you just
admit that you are wrong. Every1 knows it, every1 has accepted it apart
form you,

Once again we have that classic usenet parry of asserting that (put
simply) `everyone's against you so you must be wrong'. This has an added
twist however -- that everyone has accepted this apart from me.


> you lead such a sad life

And precisely what do you know about my life?


> you have to delude yourself from the truth,

And what truth would this be? That you don't like people replying to you
point-by-point? That a strong case can be made both for the G4 and against
the G3 in the imac?


> lol, you are such a little w**ker

This can stand for itself.


>Wow still deluding yourself joey?
Your such a ********* fag**t.
I cant read posts properly???

No, you can't, apparently; else you wouldn't contradict what the post
says. Need I repeat precisely what contradiction I'm referring to?


>LOL, thats alot coming from a little f**khead like you who cant accept
that you are wrong

Wrong regarding what, precisely? I'm still in the dark as to what I'm
wrong about.


> so you TELL me what i meant in my post.

Hardly. You asserted that the 7460 was `out of the window', the article
said that the 7460 was still in consideration. I don't believe this at all
to be `[me telling you what you meant in your post]'.


>Your just a ********** little ***** joey, you are a pathetic sack of *****,
you talk ***** you think ***** hence why you are just a malevolent little
sack of *****.

This was quite amusing this rant. I've never heard `malevolent' used in
concert with `sack of *****'. Usually one using the first term is too
eloquent to use the next, and those using the latter aren't of sufficient
eloquence to use the former. You are an exception, in at least this case.


>Let me spell it out to you.

>YOU ARE PATHETIC.

And there's still not a point of yours I couldn't rise to. Does that make
me pathetic?

Kela
Nov 23, 2001, 02:48 PM
Who the **** is Joey J? I have a feeling it is John123 as well. Do me a favor and leave, youre presence is superflous.

Catfish_Man
Nov 23, 2001, 06:30 PM
Only a few of the rumors have said that the G5 is multicored, most have said that it's single cored.. A dual core G5 would be cool though.

AlphaTech
Nov 23, 2001, 07:25 PM
I will be looking to see what Apple decides to do for the case color on the G5. I very much hope that they do something different right away to make the G5 stand out from the G4 croud. Even if they offer a couple of G4's at the time the G5 is released, they should do something different. Otherwise, you won't know you have the G5 you ordered until you power it up, and hope that someone on the production line didn't mess it up on you.

peace

rekras
Nov 23, 2001, 10:51 PM
the leak from apple said that the case design will not change, god damnit i hope that isnt true. im sick of the case design they need something new, espicially to complement the g5's incredible power.

AlphaTech
Nov 23, 2001, 11:47 PM
I hope that leak is wrong....

Maybe we should start contacting Apple people and make case color/design suggestions. Just a thought, since customer feedback made changes to important things like the keyboard and mouse from the earlier G4's to the current ones.

Something else they really should do is increase the speeds of the cd-rw drives. QPS has announced a 32x burner that should be out before the end of the year. Apple should at least put 16x burners in the boxes, to make them comparable to the pc's out there. Considering we are paying the premium for the best system on the planet, we should also get fast burners in them.

Any serious work I do is on a Mac, the pc in the corner is ONLY for games (those not, or not yet, available for the Mac).

joey j
Nov 24, 2001, 01:11 AM
Kela> Who the **** is Joey J?

Need I answer to you? Or do all new entrants to this board pass muster
under your watchful eye?


> I have a feeling it is John123

I hate to break it to you, but I'm not. Why does everyone think that
because john and I have the same posting style? Hasn't it ever struck
anyone that with 2500+ registered users, there'd be at least one pair with
similar posting style?


>as well

Here we observe the emergence of clannishness: `you toucha mah brotha and
you toucha me'.


> Do me a favor and leave,

I'm not here to keep you happy; nor am I in the business of fulfilling others' wishes.


> youre presence is superflous.

More unsubstantiated invective. (has it struck you yet that only two
people [yourself and spikey] believe I'm a negative influence? [maybe SPG
too]... )

joey j
Nov 24, 2001, 01:19 AM
Catfish_Man> Only a few of the rumors have said that the G5 is multicored,
most have said that it's single cored.. A dual core G5 would be cool though.

I'd be greatly surprised if Apple released a non-single cored G5 in their
initial G5 launch. However if the G6 is late or Apple needs more
performance from the G5 for whatever reason, they could always release a
multi-cored version of it. The G5 design supposedly has an upper limit of
4.5-5 Ghz according to Motorola's roadmap. Even if this barrier is reached
Apple could nearly double performance by simply using double-cored
processors.

Kethoticus
Nov 24, 2001, 02:16 AM
Joey J, you do not offend me. Please continue to contribute to the conversations here. Spikey and others clearly have more going on in their lives than meets the eye, because nothing else justifies those ridiculous, "unconservative" rants. I for one find you to have thoughtful feedback. I do not agree with everything you say, but see no reason to fly off the handle like you just tried to rape my girl, either. And to your credit, you've responded to every ridiculous, childish, adolescent, out-of-control, profanity-laden rant of Spikey's like a total gentleman. Clearly you remain in control of both your senses and the situation. Clearly Spike loses both all too quickly.

Now as for the original post regarding G5-based Macs this upcoming January, something smells fishy to me. This is just TOO optimistic, and reminds me of all the wishful (read: unrealistic) talk of LCD iMacs last spring. Like MattB said, I'll believe in all of those things when they're officially announced. Now if I'm wrong, praise God. I'll be happy to eat my words. But currently, all I've gotten are a lot of so-called "sources" who can not be held accountable for their words. Doesn't exactly inspire me with sleep-depriving anticipation for next January.

spikey
Nov 24, 2001, 09:51 AM
well kela, joey is a little f**kface. Hes pretty thick. Thinks he knows alot.
And he tries to write in riddles to hide the lack of content in his posts. Remind you of any1?

spikey
Nov 24, 2001, 09:56 AM
"Spikey and others clearly have more going on in their lives than meets the eye, because nothing else justifies those ridiculous, "unconservative" rants. I for one find you to have thoughtful feedback. I do not agree with everything you say, but see no reason to fly off the handle like you just tried to rape my girl, either. And to your credit, you've responded to every ridiculous, childish, adolescent, out-of-control, profanity-laden rant of Spikey's like a total gentleman. Clearly you remain in control of both your senses and the situation. Clearly Spike loses both all too quickly. "

Well kethoticus/ taramasalata/ greek f**khead.
My obviously "immature" way of writing is way too common for you upper class people.
Why dont you just shut your ********* mouth d**khead.
At the very least i have content in my posts, you on the other hand talk sh**. you posts say nothing i havent already heard. Oooooh you respect joey, well go suck his d**k then. If he has one.
You dont see wat is written in my posts because you are a snob and you are afraid to see the language i use.
Your a rightwing f**khead, you do nothing and contribute nothing to these forums, why dont you just go away. you are no use to any1.

spikey
Nov 24, 2001, 09:59 AM
">as well

Here we observe the emergence of clannishness: `you toucha mah brotha and
you toucha me'. "

Here we observe joeys di**headness. The "im too good for you" attitude.
you have just proved to every1 what a tw*t you are.

spikey
Nov 24, 2001, 10:02 AM
"> youre presence is superflous.

More unsubstantiated invective. (has it struck you yet that only two
people [yourself and spikey] believe I'm a negative influence? [maybe SPG
too]... )"

Im proving what a tw*t you are, the people in here will realise the truth.
I did it to john and i am doing it to you.

spikey
Nov 24, 2001, 10:46 AM
">Well thats all very well d**khead, but i didnt mean Mr avergae in that
context.

Do you usually make comments outside of the context in which they're
intended? (is that even possible?) Let's say someone asked you how their
hair looked and you said that it looked horrible, and upon asking you why,
you replied that you were speaking in the context of their cat or dog's
horrendously matted fur or something. Do you really do that? "


"I dont make comments outside the context i intended di**head. You are a blind *****, you are stupid and you do not understand what context they are in..
Yet again this is an example of how joey always thinks he is right.

May I remind you that this `stupid' person managed to rebut your posts
point by point. If this poster is stupid, then what does that make the
person whom he rebutted? "

LOL, rebut my posts?
You missed the fact which i pointed out 3 times to you in my last post that the subject of our posts would lead it into a stalemate, it had nothing to do with the posts themselves.
Another example of how stupid you are.



"> Everyone knows that you just use intellectual dialog to try and
make yourself seem intelligent,

I hardly think that rebutting your points counts as using `intellectual
dialog' to `make [myself] seem more intelligent'. "

Nobody said it was the rebutting of posts, its the fact that you are a tw*t with nothing useful to say.



"> it doesnt fool any of us joey.

So now you assert that you have many people on your side. A
usenet-inspired trick which I will describe in further detail be"

No dickhead, thats 4/4 points of mine you do not understand.
It doesnt say anything about people on my side, it says you are thick and people know it.
This point of mine makes the other


">then atleast you wont make a fool of yourself each time you post on this forum.

I do? By replying to you? "

No, just by replying.

"
You once again demonstrate that you cannot distinguish between motorola's
elegant load/store processor architecture and the somewhat laggard fabs
from which they emerge.

"they [have] made too many blunders". The blunder in question is clearly
Motorola's inability to gain sufficient yields on high-clockspeed G4s (NOT
motorola's engineers, as you imply, for reasons which you have not yet
explained), the solution to which is more advanced fabrication facilities. "

God damn it your thick, i will say it again for you.
IBM had to help redesign the G4 to get it above 500mhz, hence demonstrating why it wasnt just the fab process but also the over complicated design of motos G4.


">there is more to a relationship between processors than which goes where
in a hierarchy. You look at software compatibility, software versions,
supposed pricing etc etc. Why dont you criticise what i comment on when
you KNOW somehting about macs, you clearly just use any excuse to
criticise what i write.

If you can't cope with having the flaws of your argument pointed out, I
suggest you not voice your opinion, lest fresh flaws be revealed. "

Strange that seeing as i pointed out the flaws in your criticism, and yet yopu cant point out the ones in mine.
Again demonstrating what a self obsessed twat you are.




"> It doesnt work f***head, i know you are thick just because of that. You
have nothing TO criticise, you are cr*p at it, those are the reasons why
you talk sh**.

Rebutting you is to "talk sh**" now? I haven't done anything but rebut
your points, hence it must be this rebutting which causes your
aggravation. However, I can't see anything particularly aggrieving about
1) my replies specifically or 2) my method of replying [point-by-point]. "


the aggreviating thing dickhead is that you never accept you are wrong.
You do nothing to my posts, you just keep saying how you "rebut" them when just by saying that you are infact doing nothing of the sort.
You are just a waste of this forum.
You talk ****, ofcourse you cant see anything aggreviating, you are an egotistical tw*t.



"> performance difference, marketing strategy.

`Marketing strategy'. Ah yes. As if the consumer (or even most pros) care
whether their processor addresses 4GB of ram or 2^64 bytes worth of the
stuff. Now tell me, since when has address space been a marketing strategy
of processor companies? It's only just coming to prominence now; you
mention it as if it were an ingrained tactic of processor marketing.

(32-bit address lookups [for backward-compat] by a 64-bit processor do not
exact an appreciable "performance difference".) "

Never di**head, the PC boom coincided with processors being 32bit, and they ahve been since, only now have they started to change to 64, so ofcourse any1 hasnt cared before about it. God damn think before you open your mouth.
the only part of computing that has a prominent, constantly changing address space has been the console market. Dont you remember the N64 64bit advertising? or are you really just too thick to notice. ********* hell its plain and simple, no marketing yet because there hasnt been a big change yet. Do you understand now d**khead?



"|>LOL, god damn your thick. why dont you just shut your ********** face?
you make a fool of yourself, sh**head.
You havent got any criticism so you just make somthing up about me.

I made up the fact that you didn't read the post? "

YES, do i really have to make it that simple for you? or are you just acting like a little *****.




">LOL, you are so pathetic. You dont even have the intelligence to back up
your own statement, you just make a new one up, add a few fancy words and
expect us to buy it.

I've already justified repeatedly where you erred. "

you havent repeated anything, infact you havent said anything, you just make up somehting about me not reading a post. Go home joey, your just a little fool.





">wrong again d**khead, you cant take in the fact that you are wrong.

It looks perfectly clear to me. You asserted that the apollo was `out of
the window' when the article said the opposite. How was that interpretation wrong? "

Because thats not what i implied. God damn this is the 3rd time i have repeated this to you. Take it in this time. it isnt hard.
I was commentig on his writing style, the fact that he was too excited about the future, and not concentrating on the present.
god damn, you are just digging a hole, dont you get bored of not understanding anything?




"You continually assert that I misinterpret your posts. Where? Give me one
misinterpretation of mine and its correct interpretation. I can't see your
`explanation' anywhere. "


ABOVE ABOVE ABOVE. Read the last COMMENT.
God damn, why dont you just give up trying to understand, your snobby education is being matched and passed by a guy that went to a communtiy college in a red light district.



"Another thing I learned from usenet was that when people invoke the
apparent opinion of others ("people know you are...") they're usually beat
in a debate, and are trying to foment a mass of opinion against you (by
asserting that everyone else is against the other) in the (apparent) hope
that the fear hopefully generated will cause the poster in question to
back down (safety-in-numbers, i suppose). It doesn't work. "


now your in denial of the fact that people before have noticed the empty space that is your posts, they have noticed that you hide the lack of content with big words.
your just a little kid, you arent intelligent, you are thick.
And you just still cant takr in the fact that you are wrong.





">grabbing for something that isnt there f***head so why dont you just
admit that you are wrong. Every1 knows it, every1 has accepted it apart
form you,

Once again we have that classic usenet parry of asserting that (put
simply) `everyone's against you so you must be wrong'. This has an added
twist however -- that everyone has accepted this apart from me. "

Once again you use a pathetic excuse to hide the fact that you WERE WRONG, just accept it. Your a little dickhead that isnt welcome her by any1, so you might aswell just admit now and then that you are wrong.
What a stuck up snob.



"> you lead such a sad life

And precisely what do you know about my life? "

I know that you cant admit that you are wrong.




"> you have to delude yourself from the truth,

And what truth would this be? That you don't like people replying to you
point-by-point? That a strong case can be made both for the G4 and against
the G3 in the imac? "

No, the truth is that you cant take the fact you are wrong, as i have said many times before only for you to give another little excuse to make people think otherwise- as demonstarted above.
This is a debate forum, i come here to debate.
You on the other hand always think you are right and cant debate because you cant take the fact that you are wrong.
You are just a little *****.



">Wow still deluding yourself joey?
Your such a ********* fag**t.
I cant read posts properly???

No, you can't, apparently; else you wouldn't contradict what the post
says. Need I repeat precisely what contradiction I'm referring to? "

LOL, and now you have just demonstrated to everyone how you always think you are right. Cant you take that fact you are wrong?
Dont you think i contradict your posts because you ARE wrong?





">LOL, thats alot coming from a little f**khead like you who cant accept
that you are wrong

Wrong regarding what, precisely? I'm still in the dark as to what I'm
wrong about. "

Try reading above. If its possible for you.




"> so you TELL me what i meant in my post.

Hardly. You asserted that the 7460 was `out of the window', the article
said that the 7460 was still in consideration. I don't believe this at all
to be `[me telling you what you meant in your post]'."

I didnt assert this if you would read my posts. I implied that it was in the shadow of future cpus.
Why dont you just stop saying the same thing over and over and start realising you are wrong.




"This was quite amusing this rant. I've never heard `malevolent' used in
concert with `sack of *****'. Usually one using the first term is too
eloquent to use the next, and those using the latter aren't of sufficient
eloquence to use the former. You are an exception, in at least this case. "

im glad you find it funny. the truth is hard to deal with for you. you write pathetic things, because you are just pathetic.
********** sad bastard, go get a life.






">YOU ARE PATHETIC.

And there's still not a point of yours I couldn't rise to. Does that make
me pathetic?"

Why i expected you to understand i dont know.

You are just a pathetic little cumbucket.
just shut your mouth.

joey j
Nov 24, 2001, 10:50 AM
> well kela, joey is a little f**kface.

An informed, edifying argument, much similar to the others which flow so
profusely from your erudite capacity of English.


> Hes pretty thick. Thinks he knows alot.

You're quite bitter now, aren't you? Another comment standing testament to
your personality.


>And he tries to write in riddles

It would appear I was successful, although I wasn't consciously writing in
riddles. I was (and still am) writing in English, which you probably know
better than me seeing as I'm not English, unlike you.


> to hide the lack of content in his posts.

It would appear that you haven't read any of my justifications for my
points and hope to win this argument by appealing to sensibilities of
debate (`don't favour the guy who presents an argument devoid of content')
by asserting that my posts `lack ... content' when they clearly don't.


> Remind you of any1?

You still think I'm john, don't you...


> Well kethoticus/ taramasalata/ greek f**khead.

You do realise your civilisation was founded by those of Mediterranean origin, don't you?
Of course, I'd best point out that there's nothing wrong with being Greek,
in fact, I'd rather be Greek than English; Greek food has taste.


> My obviously "immature" way of writing is way too common for you upper class people.

You presuppose that Kethoticus is "upper class", or that there is
something wrong with being of the upper class.


> Why dont you just shut your ********* mouth d**khead.
> At the very least i have content in my posts,

This is excellent - I liked this one for obvious reasons. It would appear
as if I'm going to leave many of your comments to stand for themselves,
like Ozymandias' trunkless legs of stone, with their author having much
the same attitude as Ozymandias himself.


> you on the other hand talk sh**. you posts say nothing i havent already
heard.

Is that why you find it so hard to reply with any sort of forceful argument?


> Oooooh you respect joey, well go suck his d**k then. If he has one.

Informed, erudite, etc.


> You dont see wat is written in my posts because you are a snob and you
are afraid to see the language i use.

Spikey, you confirm the image most people have where I live that those of
English descent are uncultured and vulgar, and you display the trait of
blaming everything on the `upper class' [very English]...


> Your a rightwing f**khead,

... and the politically right of centre [again, very English]. You do
remember that Ancient Greece was the home of democracy, do you not?


> you do nothing and contribute nothing to these forums,

... indeed, when he could be contributing abuse, like you ...



>>>as well

>> Here we observe the emergence of clannishness: `you toucha mah brotha and you toucha me'. "

> Here we observe joeys di**headness. The "im too good for you" attitude.

Hardly; it is a piece of social analysis I learned on usenet, teacher of
all things worth learning. I fail to see how pointing out clannishness
exposes an `"im too good for you" attitude'. Spewing invective again, are we?


> you have just proved to every1 what a tw*t you are.

I propose a vote on which one of spikey and myself is the more repulsive `tw*t'.


>>> youre presence is superflous.

>> More unsubstantiated invective. (has it struck you yet that only two
people [yourself and spikey] believe I'm a negative influence? [maybe SPG
too]... )"

> Im proving what a tw*t you are,

Nearly. You're *deluding yourself into believing* that you're "proving
what a tw*t" I am.


> the people in here will realise the truth.

Ah, because Spikey is the valiant guardian of truth and fairness, holding
back a tide of, erm "tw*t"-ishness on my behalf. Correct?


> I did it to john and i am doing it to you.

Rather, you're flattering yourself by deluding yourself into believing
that you're informing everyone here such as they will "realise the truth".

spikey
Nov 24, 2001, 11:12 AM
"> well kela, joey is a little f**kface.

An informed, edifying argument, much similar to the others which flow so
profusely from your erudite capacity of English. "

As opposed to you who just talks *****..
Again this demonstrates his snobbyness of people who use different language to him


"> Hes pretty thick. Thinks he knows alot.

You're quite bitter now, aren't you? Another comment standing testament to
your personality. "

A classic case of denial.





">And he tries to write in riddles

It would appear I was successful, although I wasn't consciously writing in
riddles. I was (and still am) writing in English, which you probably know
better than me seeing as I'm not English, unlike you.


> to hide the lack of content in his posts.

It would appear that you haven't read any of my justifications for my
points and hope to win this argument by appealing to sensibilities of
debate (`don't favour the guy who presents an argument devoid of content')
by asserting that my posts `lack ... content' when they clearly don't. "

appear you were succesful?
You call people realising you are thick succesful?
Well im glad you got the effect you wanted.




"> Remind you of any1?

You still think I'm john, don't you... "

whats the difference, you both suck.




"> Well kethoticus/ taramasalata/ greek f**khead.

You do realise your civilisation was founded by those of Mediterranean origin, don't you?
Of course, I'd best point out that there's nothing wrong with being Greek,
in fact, I'd rather be Greek than English; Greek food has taste. "

You think i give a *****?
English food is great, you obviously have never had chicken tikka or chicken korma. What a snob, you are so deprived. But dont worry, one day you will realise you are a pr*ck, you have obviously no idea about english food, otherwise you would not have said that. you know nothing about english culture.
you suck, you are a ********** canadian.




"> My obviously "immature" way of writing is way too common for you upper class people.

You presuppose that Kethoticus is "upper class", or that there is
something wrong with being of the upper class. "

there is if you have those attitudes.







"> you on the other hand talk sh**. you posts say nothing i havent already
heard.

Is that why you find it so hard to reply with any sort of forceful argument? "

any forceful argument?, there wasnt anything for me to comment on in your post fu**head. What do you expect me to say?




"> Oooooh you respect joey, well go suck his d**k then. If he has one.

Informed, erudite, etc. "

And you say i dont have any "forceful argument", wow you sure can talk.





"> You dont see wat is written in my posts because you are a snob and you
are afraid to see the language i use.

Spikey, you confirm the image most people have where I live that those of
English descent are uncultured and vulgar, and you display the trait of
blaming everything on the `upper class' [very English]..."

Well face it, the image you give of the upper class isnt something to repect.
You like prving my points dont you? thats a lovely stereotype you just let us in on, stereotypes....how very upper class.

spikey
Nov 24, 2001, 11:14 AM
Maybe you should just give up talking at all, you contradict yourself.

It isnt hard to notice a twat, thats why we all notice you.
Just give up speaking, your a little ***** in constant denial of the fact that you are wrong.
You are such a waste of space.

joey j
Nov 24, 2001, 11:44 AM
joey j>Do you really do that?

[so given this question]...


spikey> Yet again this is an example of how joey always thinks he is right.

... would I have needed to ask it if i always think that I'm right?


>LOL, rebut my posts? You missed the fact which i pointed out 3 times to
you in my last post that the subject of our posts would lead it into a
stalemate, it had nothing to do with the posts themselves. Another
example of how stupid you are.

I didn't miss that; on the contrary, it was your form of weaseling out.


>>I hardly think that rebutting your points counts as using `intellectual
dialog' to `make [myself] seem more intelligent'.

>Nobody said it was the rebutting of posts,

There's nothing else I've done here to possibly upset you, so I concluded
that it was my rebutting of your posts which led to your claim of my using
`intellectual dialog' to `make [myself] seem more intelligent'.


> its the fact that you are a tw*t with nothing useful to say.

On the contrary, I defended the inclusion of the 7460 in the imac.


>>> it doesnt fool any of us joey.

>>So now you assert that you have many people on your side. A
usenet-inspired trick which I will describe in further detail be

>No dickhead, thats 4/4 points of mine you do not understand.
It doesnt say anything about people on my side,

"any of us" <----- by using the first-person plural you assert that you
have others on your side.


>>>You once`again demonstrate that you cannot distinguish between
motorola's elegant load/store processor architecture and the somewhat
laggard fabs from which they emerge.

>>"they [have] made too many blunders". The blunder in question is clearly
Motorola's inability to gain sufficient yields on high-clockspeed G4s (NOT
motorola's engineers, as you imply, for reasons which you have not yet
explained), the solution to which is more advanced fabrication facilities. "

>God damn it your thick, i will say it again for you. IBM had to help
redesign the G4 to get it above 500mhz,

No, they didn't.


> hence demonstrating why it wasnt just the fab process but also the over
complicated design of motos G4.

Granted, the G4 may even be more complex a processor than even the G5;
however, given that all architectures have limits as to their clockspeed,
I hence attribute the vast bulk of the blame to Motorola's fabrication.


>>If you can't cope with having the flaws of your argument pointed out, I
suggest you not voice your opinion, lest fresh flaws be revealed. "

>Strange that seeing as i pointed out the flaws in your criticism,

Where? I didn't see one. Maybe if you dig through the abuse you can find
it for me.


> and yet yopu cant point out the ones in mine.

I have, repeatedly.


>>> It doesnt work f***head, i know you are thick just because of that.
You have nothing TO criticise, you are cr*p at it, those are the reasons
why you talk sh**.

>>Rebutting you is to "talk sh**" now? I haven't done anything but rebut
your points, hence it must be this rebutting which causes your
aggravation. However, I can't see anything particularly aggrieving about
1) my replies specifically or 2) my method of replying [point-by-point].

>the aggreviating thing dickhead is that you never accept you are wrong.

I don't need to; you never demonstrated any holes in my argument, hence I
have no reason to believe I am wrong.


> performance difference, marketing strategy.

>`Marketing strategy'. Ah yes. As if the consumer (or even most pros) care
whether their processor addresses 4GB of ram or 2^64 bytes worth of the
stuff. Now tell me, since when has address space been a marketing strategy
of processor companies? It's only just coming to prominence now; you
mention it as if it were an ingrained tactic of processor marketing.

(32-bit address lookups [for backward-compat] by a 64-bit processor do not
exact an appreciable "performance difference".) "


>Never di**head, the PC boom coincided with processors being 32bit,

... rather, you could argue to 8, 16 at least.


> and they ahve been since, only now have they started to change to 64,

... 64-bit consumer boxes? Not yet.


> so ofcourse any1 hasnt cared before about it. God damn think before you
open your mouth. the only part of computing that has a prominent,
constantly changing address space has been the console market. Dont you
remember the N64 64bit advertising? or are you really just too thick to
notice. ********* hell its plain and simple, no marketing yet because there
hasnt been a big change yet.

(essence of argument above: little/no change == no marketing)

On the contrary, computer marketers promote things which aren't a huge
improvement on the past (100 -> 133 MHz SDRAM comes to mind). This small
change resulted in great marketeering. You claim that the lack of
marketing is due to the lack of magnitude of the change. Hardly. Small
changes can thus result in large marketing brownie-points grabbing; what
makes you think that an invisible ISA transition will result in huge
marketing drives? Because you think that people bought into this `64-bit'
hoopla which you describe?


>>>You havent got any criticism so you just make somthing up about me.

>>I made up the fact that you didn't read the post? "

>YES,

So if you did in fact read the initial post of this thread, then how do
you explain your contradictory attitude to the article? You claimed the
7460 was `out of the window'; it clearly wasn't according to the article.
How did I make that up?


>>>wrong again d**khead, you cant take in the fact that you are wrong.

>>It looks perfectly clear to me. You asserted that the apollo was `out of
the window' when the article said the opposite. How was that interpretation wrong? "

>Because thats not what i implied. God damn this is the 3rd time i have
repeated this to you. Take it in this time. it isnt hard. I was commentig
on his writing style, the fact that he was too excited about the future,
and not concentrating on the present. god damn, you are just digging a
hole, dont you get bored of not understanding anything?

See above. `writing style' is a ruse.


>>"You continually assert that I misinterpret your posts. Where? Give me
one misinterpretation of mine and its correct interpretation. I can't see
your `explanation' anywhere. "

>ABOVE ABOVE ABOVE. Read the last COMMENT. God damn, why dont you just
give up trying to understand, your snobby education is being matched and
passed by a guy that went to a communtiy college in a red light district.

Did I have a snobby education? There you are, blaming the wealthy (which
I'm not) and the `right-wing' (which i'm not) again.


>>"Another thing I learned from usenet was that when people invoke the
apparent opinion of others ("people know you are...") they're usually beat
in a debate, and are trying to foment a mass of opinion against you (by
asserting that everyone else is against the other) in the (apparent) hope
that the fear hopefully generated will cause the poster in question to
back down (safety-in-numbers, i suppose). It doesn't work. "

>now your in denial of the fact that people before have noticed the empty
space that is your posts, they have noticed that you hide the lack of
content with big words.

"apparent" "opinion" "suppose" "question" "asserting" "generated"
"hopefully". Are these examples of the words which annoy you so greatly?


> And you just still cant takr in the fact that you are wrong.

... I will - once you demonstrate it conclusively, rather than blow
smoke.



>>>Wow still deluding yourself joey? Your such a ********* fag**t. I cant
read posts properly???

>>No, you can't, apparently; else you wouldn't contradict what the post
says. Need I repeat precisely what contradiction I'm referring to? "

>LOL, and now you have just demonstrated to everyone how you always think
you are right.

Rather, you dodged the question of your contradiction. No, don't dodge the
point with this transparent `writing style' tripe.


> Cant you take that fact you are wrong? Dont you think i contradict your
posts because you ARE wrong?

If you do, you don't do it with any finesse.


>Try reading above. If its possible for you.

The irony is breathtaking. (Are the 7460s `still out the window' contrary
to the article?)


>>> so you TELL me what i meant in my post.

>>Hardly. You asserted that the 7460 was `out of the window', the article
said that the 7460 was still in consideration. I don't believe this at all
to be `[me telling you what you meant in your post]'."

>I didnt assert this

You did, which is why I take pains to quote those to whom I reply, to
eliminate false statements like yours above.


> you write pathetic things, because you are just pathetic. ********** sad
bastard, go get a life.

("write pathetic things") Is this meant to be ironic?

AlphaTech
Nov 24, 2001, 11:56 AM
spikey and joey j... why don't you go someplace else for your pissing contest??? This is supposed to be a discussion area about MACrumors, not a bashing room.

I hope that I am not alone in my wish that you both refrain from such childish behavior.

If you don't have something constructive, or at least interesting, to post, then don't post anything.

Kela
Nov 24, 2001, 11:58 AM
Spikey! Oh MY GOD, Im starting to miss John123, atleast he would occasionally shut up. This guy seems to be the successor. Joey J do not get into a war you cant win. This forum is rigged and we have more people wantin you outta here. And change that sickenig handle.

Kela out

joey j
Nov 24, 2001, 12:17 PM
>>> well kela, joey is a little f**kface.

>>An informed, edifying argument, much similar to the others which flow so
profusely from your erudite capacity of English. "

>As opposed to you who just talks *****..

Another example of your self-delusion.


>Again this demonstrates his snobbyness of people who use different
language to him

No; it was a sarcastic comment which regarded the lack of meaningful
content in "well kela, joey is a little f**kface" rather than the words
themselves. Your attempt (to stir up woe-is-me puppy-dog sympathies by
falsely claiming I am criticising your command of English) has been noted.


>>> Well kethoticus/ taramasalata/ greek f**khead.

>>You do realise your civilisation was founded by those of Mediterranean
origin, don't you? Of course, I'd best point out that there's nothing
wrong with being Greek, in fact, I'd rather be Greek than English; Greek
food has taste.

>You think i give a *****?

You should know _something_ about who settled your country in the first
place, who invaded them, who invaded them next, where the invading tribes
were from (no, don't start with claims of intellectual snobbishness, it
won't work).


>English food is great, you obviously have never had chicken tikka or
chicken korma.

Do `tikka' and `korma' sound like English names to you? And please don't
mention tikka masala. YUCK. The english preoccupation with meat is odd to
say the least.


> What a snob, you are so deprived. But dont worry, one day you will
realise you are a pr*ck, you have obviously no idea about english food,

The Mediterraneans put the smack down on your `cuisine'.


> otherwise you would not have said that. you know nothing about english culture.

I know enough to dislike it.


>you suck, you are a ********** canadian.

Further proof that you do not read the posts to which you reply. From
another thread (What's the possiblity of a Powerbook with Dual processor):

I was actually debating with myself whether or not to americanise (-ize?
:p ) my spelling to mislead people into thinking that I was from North
America. I followed that rule religiously on usenet (the confusion came in
handy a couple of times for taking the moral high ground, people would
assume I was an "arrogant yank" or a "stupid canuck" or similar, i'd give
it to them then :p.


joey j just above> "mislead people into thinking that I was from North America".

spikey just above> "you are a ********** canadian"


joey j just above> `people would assume I was ... a "stupid canuck"'

spikey just above> "you are a ********** canadian"


You don't read very closely at all, do you?




>>> My obviously "immature" way of writing is way too common for you upper
class people.

>>You presuppose that Kethoticus is "upper class", or that there is
something wrong with being of the upper class. "

>there is if you have those attitudes.

That wasn't the issue. You presupposed that Kethoticus was of "upper
class". Where is your proof of this, or are you blowing smoke again?



>>> Oooooh you respect joey, well go suck his d**k then. If he has one.

>>Informed, erudite, etc.

>And you say i dont have any "forceful argument",

You don't.


> wow you sure can talk.

As for this suggestion of hypocrisy, my argument was well correlated by
your vulgar and unsubstantiated remarks; so yes, I indeed "can talk".


>>Spikey, you confirm the image most people have where I live that those
of English descent are uncultured and vulgar, and you display the trait of
blaming everything on the `upper class' [very English]...

>Well face it, the image you give of the upper class

Restraint?


> isnt something to repect.

Give up the upper-class ranting; you brought it up purely as a ruse, a
platform from which to bash others (that you are already comfortable
with). Where were any notions of the `upper class' discussed or otherwise
brought to light?


> stereotypes....how very upper class.

spikey above, somewhere> "the image you give of the upper class"

... lumping all the "upper class" together as if they all (each one of
'em) project "the image (I) give". This sounds awfully like a stereotype
to me.

joey j
Nov 24, 2001, 12:22 PM
>we have more people wantin you outta here.

You scare me not. Didn't I already point out this classic usenet ruse?
You hope that by asserting a large number of people are against me, that
it will add legitimacy to your claims. It doesn't; the tactic doesn't
work.


> And change that sickenig handle.

Didn't I already say that I wasn't in the business of keeping you happy?

jefhatfield
Nov 24, 2001, 12:49 PM
you mean the way you changed your handle, john123, oops, i mean joey?

last time i logged on you were at 30 and now you are at 40...at that rate you will make senior memeber before december 1 and by macworld sf, you will be at 200 (kela's official mark of mac-god status)

keep up the good work john!

the more posts you throw at spikey, the more i could comment on them on way or another and the third neutral country i mentioned was bhutan, not lebanon

if i was lebanon, then i would have to commit to the spikey-kela empire or to the jj rebel alliance

at one macworld in the future, i am sure some of us will meetand by the year 2020, one of you four will be apple's ceo

joey j
Nov 24, 2001, 01:05 PM
>you mean the way you changed your handle, john123, oops, i mean joey?

I'm not JOHN! Who raised our similarities in the first place? It was you,
IIRC...

/me fossicks around for baseball bat, brass knuckles :p


>last time i logged on you were at 30 and now you are at 40...at that rate
you will make senior memeber before december 1 and by macworld sf, you
will be at 200 (kela's official mark of mac-god status)

>keep up the good work john!

What's it going to take to convince you that I'm not john? :p


>the more posts you throw at spikey, the more i could comment on them on
way or another and the third neutral country i mentioned was bhutan, not
lebanon

You did, it's just that I consider lebanon to be (superficially at least)
a neutral country due to the power-sharing apparent (christian president,
druze speaker, muslim prime minister or suchlike). It is superficial
largely because of the lack of commitment to democracy, it's more a result
of the roughly equal proportions of christians and muslims.


>if i was lebanon, then i would have to commit to the spikey-kela empire
or to the jj rebel alliance

HAHAH. We've the semantic arms (and the ability to read the posts to which
we reply). To paraphrase Jobs: "You wanna be a pirate? or join the navy?"
:p


>at one macworld in the future, i am sure some of us will meetand by the
year 2020, one of you four will be apple's ceo [/B][/QUOTE]

Now _that's_ where I'd like to be, spending Apple's cash pile to aid the
attempt to increase their marketshare from 95% to... `gee, mac os x 15.8
is looking mighty fine on this G14/40THz... dig the on-the-fly raytraced
genie effect... but ship it with another ~512 gb of ram okay?' =]

SPG
Nov 24, 2001, 05:39 PM
>Oh SPG, you're the poster that I reallly love!
-Thank you. I love you too.

>When did you hit 112 posts?
-In the middle of the night while connected by airport to my neighbors computer just to make it interesting.

>Do you think I should deconstruct posts? It seems to be getting very popular.
-I do think I should start to deconstruct my own posts. Maybe that way I could bore myself and everyone here to death.

>So, G3 or G4?
F#$% You! SPG Rot in hell while drinking the piss of Satan himself if you like the G3.

>I find that I should rise above this quagmire and perhaps don a new facade in which to facilitate a surreptitious assault on my foes.
-Eat ***** you w*nker!

>As the new SGP I should point out that I am in fact not SPG, but SGP.
-Eat more ***** w*nker!

>-Eat more ***** w*nker!
-Did I say this? Or did I say this? Wither way all I can say is -Eat more ***** w*nker!

>Oh answered with another question, well then -Eat more ***** w*nker! Are you a ***** eating Wanker?
-I do believe that your gripe is with SGP, and as I am SPG, I will have to deconstruct all of your post again while quoting myself to the point that everyone has to read the -Eat more ***** w*nker! reply 15 times.

>Oh answered with another question, well then -Eat more ***** w*nker! Are you a ***** eating Wanker?
-I do believe that your gripe is with SGP, and as I am SPG, I will have to deconstruct all of your post again while quoting myself to the point that everyone has to read the -Eat more ***** w*nker! reply 15 times.
-You can't even count. It was only said 7 times excluding this last paragraph.
>And you can't think so Eat ***** w*nker! There, 8 times.

______________________
****, please.

Kethoticus
Nov 25, 2001, 12:47 AM
Spikey blabbed:

"Well kethoticus/ taramasalata/ greek f**khead.
My obviously "immature" way of writing is way too common for you upper class people."

You are THAT intimidated by me. Wow. Kinda funny. Or perhaps it isn't. A low self-esteem like yours is destructive not just to yourself, but to others your life touches. Your posts, with their destructive wording, are a good example.

Oh... you've made, several times already, two false assumptions about me. First, I am not Greek. There is no such name in the Greek language to the best of my knowledge.

Secondly, I am not upper class. Unemployed is more like it. And for a englishman, you should be ashamed at your lack of command of the language.

And one final thing: you're a racist, narrow-minded bigot. Right-wingers are crud, according to you. How democratic. And what you have to say about Greeks. And you say *I* have nothing useful to contribute.


"Why dont you just shut your ********* mouth d**khead."

ROFL! Well there's an argument worthy of a Spikey! Full of substance. Way to go Spikester!


"At the very least i have content in my posts,..."

Yeah... "f*ckhead, d*ckhead, sh**... just oozing with scintillating information.


"...you on the other hand talk sh**."

Please give an example. Seriously, I'm open.


"...you posts say nothing i havent already heard."

Oh... so that's it. I'm supposed to enlighten YOU. And here I am thinking that these posts were a public forum for everybody. I understand now. It's all about you.


"Oooooh you respect joey, well go suck his d**k then."

So respecting someone and providing him/her with oral sex are equivalent to you. Hmmm... tell me... how many people do you respect Spike?


"If he has one."

Sophomoric. Besides, why is that of any concern to you and why would it be relevant?


"You dont see wat is written in my posts because you are a snob and you are afraid to see the language i use."

His posts are long and I usually just skim through them. And I suppose I'm a snob because I don't approve of something you do. Afraid of your language? Don't flatter yourself.


"Your a rightwing f**khead,..."

Glad to see you appreciate the democratic process. Perhaps you should give Osama a call or contact the Chinese immigration service.


"...you do nothing and contribute nothing to these forums,..."

And your cutting, coarse language is such a helpful contrast.


"...why dont you just go away. you are no use to any1."

Do you speak for the whole list here? If so, please folks, respond here and tell me if my posts (re: all of them) have been a waste of space here, and explain why. E-mail me privately if you'd prefer. Either way, if I'm doing something wrong, I'll try to correct it.

Kethoticus
Nov 25, 2001, 01:11 AM
You two need to get a better grip. Joey's not the one going ballistic. Joey's not the one starting crap on these threads. Joey's not the one who flames someone whenever his fragile ego can't handle a comment. You comment on Joey's incessant posts, when all he's doing is responding to the incessant as well as unwarranted Spikean flames.

Is that the kind of posting you want? Or is Spikey a personal friend whom you tolerate for some unseen political reason? I mean, your attitudes are ridiculous. Unless there's something of Joey J's that I have not seen (entirely possible), your criticisms of him are completely unjustified.

jefhatfield
Nov 25, 2001, 01:11 AM
so you want to start some sort of ancient mediteranean tribal war?

my greek relatives are from harlem, ny and my grandmother is tougher than anybody here!

and we are all related to the entire astoria blvd community in the big city and we all will come and get you

i guess i mean my wife is greek, so i hope that passes for something...i am just a california barn raised boy that hatched from an egg

joey j
Nov 25, 2001, 09:59 AM
>I find that I should rise above this quagmire and perhaps don a new
facade in which to facilitate a surreptitious assault on my foes.
-Eat ***** you w*nker!

So I suppose that given that I'm now officially anointed john123, and john
is `confessing', anything I say will be attributed to him... hrmm...



-I do believe that your gripe is with SGP, and as I am SPG, I will have
to deconstruct

`deconstruct'

Now that caught on quickly, didn't it? I only remember mentioning it once ;)



> all of your post again while quoting myself

I tended not to quote myself.



> to the point that everyone has to read the -Eat more ***** w*nker! reply 15 times.

... if I replied to it, I didn't snip it -- go complain to spikey.



>****, please.

The race for the Moral High Ground(tm) has begun ... ! ...

AlphaTech
Nov 25, 2001, 10:14 AM
IF you read what I posted, I told BOTH of them to take the childish behavior elsewhere. This is not the place for the 'pissing contest'.

If one is more childish then the other, then logic (novel concept to some, I know) would dictate that the more mature one would just stop and let the other wear him/her self down.

I stick to my comment of if you have nothing constructive to add, or related to the general theme of the site, the say nothing. Sometimes silence is louder then words.

keep it unreal.

jefhatfield
Nov 25, 2001, 10:40 AM
long ago, i tried to stop a cross-continent pissing contest, and being a pc tech from the silicon valley, i got dumped on big time by legions of mac zealots...it is my experience on all the mac boards that civility does not exist

if you want to find on-topic civility, go to a pc board where almost everyone is nice yet ignorant about the greatness and inventiveness of the mac...they are so far behind in innovation in the pc world because they are so busy being "pc" (politically correct)

as stated by abcnews.com what makes steve jobs great is that he is a "nasty" piece of work, hard to work with, a bad business head, a non-techie, but at the same time, a marketing genius of our times (i believe the greatest marketing genius, ever! ...and along with microsoft's millions and millions of clamshells, it is steve jobs' marketing which saved apple a few years back and put the company back into profitability)

if you are a tech in the IT field, the last thing you want to call yourself is an "alpha" tech, it is the second worst thing any real techie can call you (us engineers refer to someone who is an alpha tech as someone who really isn't technically inclined who thinks they know it all and has to be right but rarely is)

in a way steve jobs is an alpha tech but his saving grace is his amazing marketing ability and since marketing is a branch of business and apple is a business, the world should be glad that apple isn't all gearheads

btw, the worst thing you can become or be called in silicon valley is a "suit"...i used to be one back when i was in my gung-ho mba student days until i saw the light and realized that without the engineers to make, code for, and maintain the gear, the suits would have nothing to peddle in the first place!

jefhatfield
Nov 25, 2001, 11:00 AM
but i am not slamming mba's, they are needed to, even if they are an "evil" necessity

a friend of mine who has discovered religion asked me my take on satanism, and i replied, "mba school"

i explained the difference between my experiences at bible school and at mba school and the two opposing philosophies of "greed is the root of all evil" vs. "the bottom-line is the most important thing" and also stated that satanists, while not the best group to join on a sunday afternoon, believe in god just as satan himself does...remember the movie, "Oh God" and "Oh God, You Devil" where the devil was always trying to catch up with, and eventually be god himself

somewhere on microsoft's website, i saw a gui hyperlink once labeled something like "microsoft mba" and the first thing that came to my head was some sort of evil legion of pc stormtroopers ready to carry out bill's blitzkreig on the silicon valley

Foocha
Nov 25, 2001, 11:07 AM
Jef - you say Steve Jobs is "a bad business head" but you also say that he is "the greatest marketing genius, ever" and you then say "marketing is a branch of business".

This seems very contradictory. So which is it? Jobs as business genius, or Jobs as bad business head?

jefhatfield
Nov 25, 2001, 11:16 AM
marketing is not accounting, here's what i mean

business 101-

branches of business: (in a nutshell)

accounting
operations management
economics
human resources management
logistics and procurement
general management
marketing and advertising/public relations

i should have clarified, job's is not an accountant or he is not good with cash flow

when someone refers to a ceo not being good at business, it is in the "accounting" branch of business that is being referred to

sorry for the mixup and good point you brought up, thanks

jefhatfield
Nov 25, 2001, 11:19 AM
the fields do deserve their own "branches"

marketing
advertising
public relations

and i am sure you like that order

btw, is there a fifth p?

[Edited by jefhatfield on 11-25-2001 at 12:22 PM]

Foocha
Nov 25, 2001, 11:57 AM
What do you mean 5th p?

Could this be the Jef Hatfield legendary 400th post?

Foocha
Nov 25, 2001, 12:10 PM
Too many people make the mistake of mixing up business with accountancy. That's why so many accountancy firms became jumped up "management consultants" in the late 90's. The sooner they get back to bean counting the better :)

There isn't enough heavyweight marketing intelligence in the board rooms of most large UK businesses, and I think British business suffers as a result. It's interesting to watch a business like Apple Inc where marketing strategy seems to lead decision making, and products like the iMac are conjored out of thin air (nothing technically innovative there, just a huge amount of very clever marketing gloss!)

Regarding marketing disciplines - I would consider advertising the be a form of marketing - "above the line marketing" - ie. contracted media, verses other marketing activity like direct mail, sales promotion and loyalty marketing are "below the line" - own media.

PR is part marketing and part a thing unto itself - tricky one to classify really.

From a marketing point of view, I'd say the GX naming convention is starting to present Apple with problems. There's no obvious reason why Apple should migrate it's consumer line to G4, and yet consumers won't want to buy something called "G3" when they see professional G5 desktops hit the shelves next year. Intel had a better naming strategy with Pentium and Celeron. I think it's time to come up with a nice new name for G3 to make it sound more whizzy and up-to-date.



[Edited by Foocha on 11-25-2001 at 01:45 PM]

jefhatfield
Nov 25, 2001, 12:44 PM
apple should come up with something better than just "G5" but i can't think of what that would be

thanks for the clarification on the marketing categories and sub-categories

MacRumors
Nov 25, 2001, 01:08 PM
Guys...

keep personal attacks to a minimum (translation = none)

arn