Is the Palin pick the worst in history?

[thechidz]

So it seems like even her folksy charm and barbie looks won't be enough to heal the wounds that her oblivious, nonsensical interviews have inflicted on the McCain campaign. There are plenty of people that will still vote for her because they are probably just as white washed, but as election day comes nearer it is more clear that we will have our first african-american president. (barring what would pretty much amount to blatant theft of the election by the GOP, which I wouldn't put past them). So is the pick of Palin the absolute worst in history?

[sushi]

Guess we'll know in a few days.

If Obama wins, then that will probably be used as the reason why McCain lost.

If McCain wins, then obviously she was not the worst choice.

[rdowns]

Guess we'll know in a few days.

If Obama wins, then that will probably be used as the reason why McCain lost.


It may be used as the reason but it's not in my opinion. Picking her was just one in a series of very bad decisions on the part of the McCain campaign. They had a strategy which wasn't working. They then went into "throw all kids of ***** on the wall and see what sticks" mode. History will judge this campaign as the how to book on what not to do.

[glocke12]

It was not a wise choice.....

[MacDawg]

(barring what would pretty much amount to blatant theft of the election by the GOP, which I wouldn't put past them).

This I don't understand

If Obama wins, it is a statement
If McCain wins, it is stolen



Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[Anuba]

I've only been around for 40 years, and only interested in US politics in the last 15 or so... but she's definitely the worst pick that I'm aware of. Worse than Dan Quayle? Yes. Quayle may have been slightly dumber, but his running mate wasn't a 72-year old knocking on death's door, so his stupidity didn't really matter. And Quayle had low self-esteem, because somewhere he knew pretty well how inadequate he was. Palin on the other hand, thinks she's fantastic and on top of things.

[thechidz]

This I don't understand

If Obama wins, it is a statement
If McCain wins, it is stolen



Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

yes, just like 2000 when the winner of the election (Gore) lost because the republicans stole the election by disenfranchising Florida voters. remember that?

It is obvious that the majority of the country, and the world want Obama to lead this very important period that we are entering into that will affect the entire world.

[MacDawg]

yes, just like 2000 when the winner of the election (Gore) lost because the republicans stole the election by disenfranchising Florida voters. remember that?

It is obvious that the majority of the country, and the world want Obama to lead this very important period that we are entering into that will affect the entire world.

Rrrrrrright :rolleyes:


Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[thechidz]

Rrrrrrright :rolleyes:


Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

good response:rolleyes:

so the 2000 election was completely fair in you opinion?

Palin is a mental midget. Sorry if that offends anyone but she makes me so mad. How someone like that can reach the position she has is pure injustice. It is time to stop this nonsense. power to the people...

[rdowns]

I've only been around for 40 years, and only interested in US politics in the last 15 or so... but she's definitely the worst pick that I'm aware of. Worse than Dan Quayle? Yes. Quayle may have been slightly dumber, but his running mate wasn't a 72-year old knocking on death's door, so his stupidity didn't really matter. And Quayle had low self-esteem, because somewhere he knew pretty well how inadequate he was. Palin on the other hand, thinks she's fantastic and on top of things.

Funny you mention Quayle. Both he and Palin were chosen to appease the Republican base. Hopefully, the outcome of picking Palin will be different.

If she loses, she's done on the national stage. Over 50% feel she's not qualified to be VP, let alone President. Not to mention all the Reps and Conservatives on record with some pretty scathing remarks about her unqualified-ness.

[Berlepsch]

Actually, I think Cheney could have picked a better presidential candidate back in 2000 - I mean, everyone was making jokes about Bush's inability to pronounce words with more than two syllables correctly.

[Beric]

Andrew Johnson was pretty bad. ;)

And I believe experience is far more important, of which Palin, as the VP pick, has more than Obama, the President pick.

Palin's definitely made some mistakes upon her entry to the national stage. But her entry shows where women can get, and also calls into serious question the Democratic party's current status as "the party of women". Especially reflecting how reporters, who are voting Democrat 80% to 20%, have treated her.

[MacDawg]

so the 2000 election was completely fair in you opinion?

I didn't express an opinion, but the Supreme Court did

Palin is a mental midget. Sorry if that offends anyone but she makes me so mad. How someone like that can reach the position she has is pure injustice. It is time to stop this nonsense. power to the people...

Apparently the voters who elected her to her position disagree with you

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[thechidz]

Andrew Johnson was pretty bad. ;)

And I believe experience is far more important, of which Palin, as the VP pick, has more than Obama, the President pick.

Palin's definitely made some mistakes upon her entry to the national stage. But her entry shows where women can get, and also calls into serious question the Democratic party's current status as "the party of women". Especially reflecting how reporters, who are voting Democrat 80% to 20%, have treated her.

experience as mayor of small town, big oil is not representative of what goes on in the lower 48. I'm sorry but that argument is moot. No way.

Her presence in politics has single handedly destroyed the progress that Clinton and other women with actual brain matter have made...

Oh did the big bad media ask a few tough questions of the VP candidate of the most influential country in the world??? Poor poor dough head, ummm Palin oops:rolleyes:

[Sky Blue]

If she loses, she's done on the national stage.

I think she'll run in 2012. Her biggest weakness, imo, is she over-estimates herself way too much. Her people will lay the blame on McCain if they lose.

[iGary]

It will pretty much go down as one of the major reasons McCain lost the election.

[NT1440]

Few people know that Terry the Tron guy was actually his first pick.
http://www.sickcycles.com/users/mayablog/Judge_Guy.jpg

Unfortunatly for mccain, he was already voting Obama


:p

[MacDawg]

It will pretty much go down as one of the major reasons McCain lost the election.

While it certainly will play a role both pro and con, depending on your perspective, I think McCain had plenty of his own reasons to lose

In my opinion, the selection of McCain as their candidate was a far worse choice for the GOP than Palin was as VP

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[Anuba]

Palin is a mental midget. Sorry if that offends anyone but she makes me so mad. How someone like that can reach the position she has is pure injustice.
John Cleese of Monty Python fame was on MSNBC's Countdown last night, and this is what he said:

"I think the problem came when everybody wanted George W for president because he's someone they could have a beer with. You know, someone you feel comfortable with. I don't want a president I feel comfortable with, I want a president who's so damn smart, well informed, sharp, and a good assessor of people, that if I was there I'd just keep my mouth shut so that he didn't realize what a fool I was. But that seems to be the opposite of what a certain kind of republican voters want, which is someone who they're gonna feel comfortable with. I know the Americans are terrific about not being envious of money, compared with the Europeans, but they seem to be very envious about intelligence. And the idea of being with someone who's intelligent, well informed and educated, Ivy League... bleeeuuuhhh! Not a proper American. And the result is that they want someone who is not going to be terribly bright, or highly intelligent, or awfully sharp, or a very good judge of people. Considering that this is a man for the job of the most powerful person in the world, that's rather alarming. As I pointed out to one audience, if you wanted to have a drink with Bush, you should have voted for Gore."

And that's what Palin is all about. Republicans want a backwards thinking, folksy, uneducated, anti-intellectual dumbass like themselves.

[MacDawg]

And that's what Palin is all about. Republicans want a backwards thinking, folksy, uneducated, anti-intellectual dumbass like themselves.

Wow... just wow

And the award for most stereotypical post goes to...

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[Anuba]

But her entry shows where women can get, and also calls into serious question the Democratic party's current status as "the party of women". Especially reflecting how reporters, who are voting Democrat 80% to 20%, have treated her.
And why is it exactly that Palin has been rejected by democrats?

This exchange from the Rachel Maddow Show last night pretty much says it all:

Rachel Maddow: If McCain loses badly, will this hurt potential future women candidates?

Lawrence O'Donnell: It will hurt token women candidates, which is arguably what you had with both Ferraro and Palin. But what Hillary Clinton showed, and what other women senators around the country have shown in very strong statewide runs, not just in New England but from New England to California to Arkansas, we have these very strong women candidates, who I think are showing all the time how powerful women candidacies can be. And they're beating very strong male candidacies all over the country. And Hillary beat every man running except for Barack Obama... so I think the serious female candidate is as strong as the serious male candidate, but picking someone because she's female, sticking her on the ticket, turns out to be a bad idea.

;)

[Scepticalscribe]

I'd argue that Palin is up there with the worst in history, yes, but she has had some good company in recent decades, some of them, unfortunately, returned by their electorates to high office, a position for which many of them had not the wit, wisdom, intelligence, judgement, humanity or experience to hold......to wit, namely, Quayle (already mentioned), Reagan, and, of course, Bush himself. After eight frightful years in office, I still cannot take that man seriously. Unfortunately, his appalling legacy means that I must do so.
Cheers

[MacDawg]

Nobody wants to mention these gems?

McGovern-Eagleton/Shriver
Mondale-Ferraro
Dukakis-Bentsen

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[Much Ado]

And the award for most stereotypical post goes to...
Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

Don't be so hard on yourself ;)

[Anuba]

Nobody wants to mention these gems?

McGovern-Eagleton/Shriver
Mondale-Ferraro
Dukakis-Bentsen

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif
Eagleton is the one who had to drop out of the race, right? After it was made public that he had mental health issues?

Yeah, that's some inadequate vetting right there. But judging by his Wikipedia profile, it would have been a non-issue... he returned to the senate and remained a senator for several years, and went on to be a professor at Washington University, an attorney and a political commentator.

He may have had some, er, 'issues', but there's nothing to indicate that he was dimwitted like Palin or Quayle. Those two are bad picks because they're idiots.

[NT1440]

Eagleton is the one who had to drop out of the race, right? After it was made public that he had mental health issues?

Yeah, that's some inadequate vetting right there. But judging by his Wikipedia profile, it would have been a non-issue... he returned to the senate and remained a senator for several years, and went on to be a professor at Washington University, an attorney and a political commentator.

He may have had some, er, 'issues', but there's nothing to indicate that he was dimwitted like Palin or Quayle. Those two are bad picks because they're idiots.

If I'm thinking about the right guy, I beleive his "issue" was depression or something like that and he had previously undergone electroshock therapy, was completely fine, but after everyone found out he had to step down.

I could be thinking of someone else tho

[mactastic]

Palin's definitely made some mistakes upon her entry to the national stage. But her entry shows where women can get, and also calls into serious question the Democratic party's current status as "the party of women".
Yes, just as Alan Keyes failure to gain the GOP candidacy calls into serious question the Republican party's current status as "the party of black people".

:rolleyes:
Especially reflecting how reporters, who are voting Democrat 80% to 20%, have treated her.
Wait... are you actually suggesting that the media was nice to Hillary Clinton?

While it certainly will play a role both pro and con, depending on your perspective, I think McCain had plenty of his own reasons to lose
I agree there. Among other reasons is McCain's lack of appeal to the base, and his poor selection of top-level campaign staffers. Tucker Bounds and Steve "Schmithead" Schmidt have to be some of the poorest campaign advisors since Kerry and Gore took that title from Bob Dole.

In my opinion, the selection of McCain as their candidate was a far worse choice for the GOP than Palin was as VP

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif
Yup... Should have been Huckabee. It speaks volumes about the modern GOP power centers that his candidacy was rejected.

[JG271]

Personal opinion aside, I think it wasn't a good choice even though McCain managed to shore up his core supporters (read:nutjobs) by picking Palin, but probably also drove away quite a lot of more moderate republicans or independent voters.

She was pretty much just picked to try and win easy votes for McCain, whereas Obama's pick of Joe Biden was more for his character, experience and decision making ability - they come across as a political team that will really be able to work together and work with each others strengths, and not only a political pair but really as if they are quite good friends!

Picking her was just one in a series of very bad decisions on the part of the McCain campaign. They had a strategy which wasn't working. They then went into "throw all kids of ***** on the wall and see what sticks" mode. History will judge this campaign as the how to book on what not to do.

Exactly - Obama's campaign on the other hand had/has a lot of main points which he stuck to solidly throughout the entire campaign and of course the "change" mantra has worked very well for him.

[Plymouthbreezer]

And I believe experience is far more important, of which Palin, as the VP pick, has more than Obama, the President pick...
Seriously?

[mysterytramp]

Palin's definitely made some mistakes upon her entry to the national stage. But her entry shows where women can get, and also calls into serious question the Democratic party's current status as "the party of women". Especially reflecting how reporters, who are voting Democrat 80% to 20%, have treated her.

Of course, if her buddies at the Alaska Independence Party get their way, it will no longer be the 49th state, she'll no longer be a U.S. citizen and therefore ineligible to be vice president. In that light, McCain would have made the biggest political blunder since William Henry Harrison spent two hours giving his inaugural address.

mt

[iShater]

Seriously?

He must have missed that interview with the mayor of Wasila, where we discovered all they do is have a meeting once a week.

[3rdpath]

there used to be a saying about a lady who had 2 sons. one became VP and the other went off to sea...and neither were ever heard from again.

the role of VP has certainly changed in recent times...Cheney being an extreme example of VP as puppetmaster.

i'm hoping the VP role returns to one of less power-kind of a glorified valet/photo op stand in.

having said that-palin is still the most unqualified pick i can think of (IMHO). the thing that's scary about her, besides her lack of restraint, is her lack of self-awareness of her abilities. she truly believes she's qualified to run the country...after she's done making policy in the senate of course.

[beatzfreak]

Eagleton is the one who had to drop out of the race, right? After it was made public that he had mental health issues?

Yeah, that's some inadequate vetting right there. But judging by his Wikipedia profile, it would have been a non-issue... he returned to the senate and remained a senator for several years, and went on to be a professor at Washington University, an attorney and a political commentator.

He may have had some, er, 'issues', but there's nothing to indicate that he was dimwitted like Palin or Quayle. Those two are bad picks because they're idiots.

That reminds me, what ever happened to those medical records Palin was supposed to release?

Another gaffe (http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=videolandingpage&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=3174372&referralPlaylistId=df5603c3d11ca9a023b0070cfc5f297e279fd3a7)? At about 1:55, she says we're at war with Iran.

[Thomas Veil]

Worse than Dan Quayle? Yes. Quayle may have been slightly dumber, but his running mate wasn't a 72-year old knocking on death's door, so his stupidity didn't really matter.With all due respect, it always matters. One never knows when the VP will be asked to take over, as Gerald Ford and LBJ found out. (And neither of those guys was the smartest in the world, but they look like Mensa material next to Palin. :D )

Palin on the other hand, thinks she's fantastic and on top of things.Only in bed. From what I hear, anyway.

Nobody wants to mention these gems?

McGovern-Eagleton/Shriver
Mondale-Ferraro
Dukakis-BentsenNot exactly the best list to prove your point. There was nothing wrong with R. Sargent Shriver. Ferraro got weepy once; BFD. And Bentsen, that was a sharp, cagy guy, as Danny Quayle found out.

[IJ Reilly]

And the award for most stereotypical post goes to...

Not so fast, he's just getting started.

Nobody wants to mention these gems?

McGovern-Eagleton/Shriver
Mondale-Ferraro
Dukakis-Bentsen

I'd point to Eagleton as quite possibly the most disastrous VP pick politically. I think this is probably the most objective way to answer such a vague question, where for many "worst" translates as "the one I disliked the most."

[Anuba]

That reminds me, what ever happened to those medical records Palin was supposed to release?
Well, it's been 11 days and she has 3 days left... don't hold your breath.

:rolleyes:

[thechidz]

where for many "worst" translates as "the one I disliked the most."

true usually but not this time because I think McCain had about 10000 times better chance to win before she opened her mouth on tv

[rdowns]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6n5OQVzVVQ) was the worst VP pick, ever!

[IJ Reilly]

true usually but not this time because I think McCain had about 10000 times better chance to win before she opened her mouth on tv

I don't know this to be true. McCain was behind in the polls at the time he made the choice, and the only time he looked like he had a chance was after he pick was announced and she made the acceptance speech at the convention. The Eagleton selection was much more of a disaster politically because he was forced to step aside. After that, McGovern didn't just lose the election (which was inevitable anyway), he was crushed, winning only his home state.

[IJ Reilly]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6n5OQVzVVQ) was the worst VP pick, ever!

And it's that simple!

[emmawu]

You betcha she's the worst.

It would be nice if she actually read the constitution.

It would be nice if she actually had an income under $1.2 million and then tells us she shops at consignment shops.

The RNC did buy her some nice and expensive clothes and she wears them well.

I can see her as the HR person who conducts "Quality Seminars" and sells Avon on the side. I'd probably buy some bubble bath from her.

But VP and a heartbeat away from President, McCain could not have picked a more inadequate person.

[63dot]

There are times of the day when I truly feel sorry for her and think she is too young, inexperienced, undereducated for the job, and the worst possible pick. She wasn't on any GOP short lists, but neither was Mr. Potatoe, Dan Quayle. :)

But at least he was a lawyer, if that counts for anything, and I assume he took Constitutional Law. Palin, on the other hand, sounds like she needs to take high school Civics class.

[SMM]

I dot know how many of you have seen the interview she recently did with the Anchorage newspaper, which Rachel offered on-going comments on, absentia? The interviewer was none too gentle with her, and kept her 'on subject'. She phrased questions like,

Interviewer: "So Governor, now that the investigation's findings are complete, how do you intend to deal with this matter"?

Palin: "Well, it is good to be officially cleared of any wrong-doing and have this matter to be put to rest.

Interviewer: Governor, the report clearly says you abused your authority and are guilty of using your position for personal gain. It states it in the very first paragraph.

Palin : Like I stated, being cleared of all charges is what is important here.

Interviewer: But, the report does not clear you. In fact, it accuses you of breaking the law.

Palin : ( moosehead staring into headlights ) when we look into Senator McCain's record of cleaning up congress, and now that my record has been exonerated in Alaska, I think Americans will realize they have the winning ticket with the republicans.

Rachel Maddow (to the TV audience): It is considered bad form to use the "L" (liar) word. But, I cannot think of anything more suitable for Palin.

Note: These are not direct actual quotes. However, they are faithful representations of the actual words.

As to the actual question, I am going to pick Spiro Agnew. Hard to imagine someone knocking Cheney out of first place though. :p

[Thomas Veil]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6n5OQVzVVQ) was the worst VP pick, ever!Between you and SMM, we've come up with a real bunch of losers: Stockdale, Palin, Agnew and Cheney. Hard to know which one to pick as worst, as it depends on which you fear more: unrepentent corruption or abject stupidity.

He must have missed that interview with the mayor of Wasila, where we discovered all they do is have a meeting once a week.Wasilla has 9000 people. I live in a small town of 30,000, three times that size, and that's about all they do too. I know the mayor and have been to plenty of those meetings in the course of my duties, and I'm here to tell you: there is nothing in the mayor's job that qualifies one to be a heartbeat away from the presidency.

[63dot]

Between you and SMM, we've come up with a real bunch of losers: Stockdale, Palin, Agnew and Cheney. Hard to know which one to pick as worst, as it depends on which you fear more: unrepentent corruption or abject stupidity.

Wasilla has 9000 people. I live in a small town of 30,000, three times that size, and that's about all they do too. I know the mayor and have been to plenty of those meetings in the course of my duties, and I'm here to tell you: there is nothing in the mayor's job that qualifies one to be a heartbeat away from the presidency.

1) Agnew was the only "convicted" criminal. Take a guess who is next? :)

2) Wasilla, AK city limits, under Palin's control, was approx. 5400 people. The rest is county regional and unincorporated and thankfully, out of her reach when she was mayor. :)

[IJ Reilly]

Between you and SMM, we've come up with a real bunch of losers: Stockdale, Palin, Agnew and Cheney. Hard to know which one to pick as worst, as it depends on which you fear more: unrepentent corruption or abject stupidity.

I'm confused. What is the meaning of "worst pick" in this context? Perot never had a chance, so Stockdale didn't hurt his chances, Agnew was elected along with Nixon in an election that wasn't close, and Cheney was elected twice. And Palin gave McCain the only real bounce in the polls he's had during the entire campaign. Separate how you feel about these people from the politics and none of them really qualify as "worst choices" because none of them hurt the chances of the people they were running alongside.

One of the tested rules of presidential campaigns is that the VP pick usually can't win an election but he/she can lose it for you. When the dust settles, we may find that Palin drove some voters away from the Republican ticket, but I think it's way too soon to say.

[MacDawg]

I'm confused. What is the meaning of "worst pick" in this context? Perot never had a chance, so Stockdale didn't hurt his chances, Agnew was elected along with Nixon in an election that wasn't close, and Cheney was elected twice. And Palin gave McCain the only real bounce in the polls he's had during the entire campaign. Separate how you feel about these people from the politics and none of them really qualify as "worst choices" because none of them hurt the chances of the people they were running alongside.

One of the tested rules of presidential campaigns is that the VP pick usually can't win an election but he/she can lose it for you. When the dust settles, we may find that Palin drove some voters away from the Republican ticket, but I think it's way too soon to say.

Agreed

I think McCain's nomination disappointed many... and while some will still vote for him, it will be a vote against Obama more than anything else

I think Palin's selection brought many more back to McCain's ticket than she drove away

Regardless... the GOP botched this election from the beginning

In the end, if Obama is elected, I believe it will be less because of him and his platform, and more because of GW backlash and the lack of a viable candidate from the GOP

Like I said before... I don't think most people like either candidate worth a d**n. I think both candidates would promise Firewire on the next MacBook revision if it would get them elected, knowing full well that Steve wouldn't allow them to deliver.

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[iJohnHenry]

No, that was when Caligula tried to make his horse, Incitatus, a consul and a priest. :p

[IJ Reilly]

Agreed

I think McCain's nomination disappointed many... and while some will still vote for him, it will be a vote against Obama more than anything else

I think Palin's selection brought many more back to McCain's ticket than she drove away

Regardless... the GOP botched this election from the beginning

In the end, if Obama is elected, I believe it will be less because of him and his platform, and more because of GW backlash and the lack of a viable candidate from the GOP

Like I said before... I don't think most people like either candidate worth a d**n. I think both candidates would promise Firewire on the next MacBook revision if it would get them elected, knowing full well that Steve wouldn't allow them to deliver.

It's a Democratic year, for a whole host of reason -- eight years of W being the single largest.

As for most how people feel, I can't really say, but the positive energy for Obama is something I haven't seen expressed for any presidential candidate since Robert Kennedy. I think a lot of people are motivated to vote "for" him instead of "against" McCain.

No, that was when Caligula tried to make his horse, Incitatus, a consul and a priest. :p

Now there's a bad pick. ;)

[MacDawg]

I think a lot of people are motivated to vote "for" him instead of "against" McCain.

That is probably true too... and yet many who vote for McCain will do so to merely vote against Obama (some for race to be sure, others for different reasons).

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[IJ Reilly]

That is probably true too... and yet many who vote for McCain will do so to merely vote against Obama (some for race to be sure, others for different reasons).

Sure, but this year I'm not hearing "the lesser of the two evils" line nearly so much as usual. For one I feel like I have a real choice this year. If many Republicans have to hold their noses while voting for McCain, it's nobody's fault but their own.

[thechidz]

today I asked a student if he was voting tuesday. Without any indication of my political stance to get a leaning response he told me, without hesitation, that he will be voting for the first time in his life tuesday to vote against Palin. That is all I need to believe she is hurting McCain's campaign. He didn't even vote against Bush because he is fundamentally opposed to the entire electoral college process.

[MacDawg]

That is all I need to believe she is hurting McCain's campaign.

That is quite an impressive sample size and demographic ;)

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[thechidz]

That is quite an impressive sample size and demographic ;)

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

its better than joe the plumber:p

[Blue Velvet]

Any damage done to a losing campaign is potentially nothing compared to the coming civil war within the Republican party over future direction, which Palin clearly intends to seize as her own.

Wingnuts and christianists vs. old-skool fiscal conservatives. Pass the popcorn.

[MacDawg]

Any damage done to a losing campaign is potentially nothing compared to the coming civil war within the Republican party over future direction, which Palin clearly intends to seize as her own.

Wingnuts and christianists vs. old-skool fiscal conservatives. Pass the popcorn.

There will be blood

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[DakotaGuy]

Nobody wants to mention these gems?

McGovern-Eagleton/Shriver
Mondale-Ferraro
Dukakis-Bentsen

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

Actually Bentsen was a good pick. In fact many people have said if that ticket would have been Bentsen-Dukakis instead of Dukakis-Bentsen it would have been more successful.

I might be one of the few, but as a moderate Democrat Palin IS the reason I won't vote for McCain. If he had picked a competent VP like Romney for example, I might have considered voting for him, however I can't imagine Palin as number two.

[IJ Reilly]

Any damage done to a losing campaign is potentially nothing compared to the coming civil war within the Republican party over future direction, which Palin clearly intends to seize as her own.

Among many others, to be sure.

Wingnuts and christianists vs. old-skool fiscal conservatives. Pass the popcorn.

The fault lines are more numerous and run deeper than this. The fight is really more between the Movement Conservatives who trace their ideological bloodlines back to Barry Goldwater, and the social conservative movement. Ronald Reagan was really the last national Republican leader who could join these coalitions -- ever since, the best they could do was try to paper over their differences.

The really interesting split as I see it is the faction of intellectual conservatives, mostly of the Movement, who are either vocally in opposition to the direction the party has moved recently, or at best gritting their teeth. Sarah Palin might try to grab the flag of Republican populism, but other flags will be raised.

I'll take butter on my popcorn, please.

[MacDawg]

The fault lines are more numerous and run deeper than this. The fight is really more between the Movement Conservatives who trace their ideological bloodlines back to Barry Goldwater, and the social conservative movement. Ronald Reagan was really the last national Republican leader who could join these coalitions -- ever since, the best they could do was try to paper over their differences.

The really interesting split as I see it is the faction of intellectual conservatives, mostly of the Movement, who are either vocally in opposition to the direction the party has moved recently, or at best gritting their teeth. Sarah Palin might try to grab the flag of Republican populism, but other flags will be raised.

I'll take butter on my popcorn, please.

I think the GOP realized too late they would be facing Obama and not Clinton
And I think they underestimated the appeal that Obama would garner
They never dreamed he could capture the attention he has or overcome the race issues

By the time they did... they were stuck with McCain, and he was not the answer
They added Palin to counteract it... and it failed

Now they will have 4 years to attack Obama and set aside their differences
Time will tell how well they do on both counts

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[Blue Velvet]

And I think they underestimated the appeal that Obama would garner.

First Hillary Clinton, then McCain. I don't think either of them really got a grip on the guy, as shown by the inconsistent lines of attack.

Karl Rove tired early on to define him as:

the guy at the country club with the beautiful date, holding a martini and a cigarette that stands against the wall and makes snide comments about everyone who passes by.

This is just so laughably inaccurate and as off-target as the celebrity, manchurian socialist candidate as is the fear of community organisers. I just don't think his political enemies get the nature of his appeal until they're left choking in the dust.

[skunk]

Karl Rove tired early on to define him as: ...basically, anything but black. That was his problem, I think.

[MacDawg]

This is just so laughably inaccurate and as off-target as the celebrity, manchurian socialist candidate as is the fear of community organisers. I just don't think his political enemies get the nature of his appeal until they're left choking in the dust.

Gaining office is incredibly difficult... and it is a noteworthy feat
What he will accomplish by taking office is unprecedented

But once in, will he be able to deliver?

I have my doubts
Actually, let me rephrase, I have no doubt... he can't and he won't
He has overpromised and he will underdeliver

Civil war in the GOP? Yes... but I believe the Obama presidency will rip our country apart at the seams even more than GW's has


Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[Blue Velvet]

But once in, will he be able to deliver?

I have high confidence. He's a man of considerable intelligence, has surrounded himself with respected and competent advisers, and he's got a far better chance of working successfully with both houses than John McCain.

Just look at the difference between the way the two campaigns have been run and the way key decisions have been made, handled and presented by both sides.

[skunk]

But once in, will he be able to deliver?

I have my doubts
Actually, let me rephrase, I have no doubt... he can't and he won't
He has overpromised and he will underdeliver.I really believe you misunderestimate the man. The huge advantage of not having been in the Senate long is that you do not recognise the limits of the possible.

[MacDawg]

I have high confidence. He's a man of considerable intelligence, has surrounded himself with respected and competent advisers, and he's got a far better chance of working successfully with both houses than John McCain.

Just look at the difference between the way the two campaigns have been run and the way key decisions have been made, handled and presented by both sides.

Don't misunderstand... I don't think a McCain presidency would have a high possibility of success either

I just think we are in for a LONG 4 years regardless


Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[Blue Velvet]

I just think we are in for a LONG 4 years regardless

Perhaps. There's one hell of a mess to clear up, none of which can be currently laid at his feet.

[skunk]

I just think we are in for a LONG 4 years regardlessHowever, I'd like to point out that is not what you were saying above.

[MacDawg]

However, I'd like to point out that is not what you were saying above.

Explain?

I have made no secret that I don't like either candidate worth a d**n
I don't think either has a high probability of success

Yes, part of that is due to the economic situation they will inherit
But I don't think either can galvanize the nation, both will divide it

I have not been a McCain supporter from the beginning


Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[skunk]

Explain?Only that you appeared to be saying that Obama had cooked his own goose by overpromising, and that he would be extremely divisive, whereas McCain/Palin have promised nothing coherent at all and would certainly divide the country more. Give the guy a chance.

[DakotaGuy]

Don't misunderstand... I don't think a McCain presidency would have a high possibility of success either

I just think we are in for a LONG 4 years regardless


Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

Well if Obama wins the first thing they will do is start to downplay expectations. If everyone expects him to do everything he says he will he would never get re-elected in 4 years. Watch the mid-term elections in 2010 because if there is a hard shift back to Republicans in Congress then that tells you people want a leash on him. It isn't a whole lot different then what happened to Clinton in 1994. Clinton became much more moderate after 1994 when the Republicans took both Houses back.

I don't think Obama is going to go down as the greatest President in history like some people think. Maybe he will, but I think he will prove to be mediocre at best. Mediocre is better then what we have right now, however I think the people that have crowned him "The one" are going to be sorely disappointed.

[mysterytramp]

I might be one of the few, but as a moderate Democrat Palin IS the reason I won't vote for McCain. If he had picked a competent VP like Romney for example, I might have considered voting for him, however I can't imagine Palin as number two.

As people process the Palin selection, I think they miscalculate the weakness of the Republican bench. There aren't many people who would a) serve alongside McCain and b) not otherwise be a drag on the ticket some other way.

The also-rans in the GOP grudge match never proved they could bring a coalition to the ticket. The best of the other Republican governors all have minuses -- Crist (you want two white-haired men?) and Jindal (finally nominate a minority and it's not AA?). Pawlenty would have been a "safe" pick, but I don't think McCain wanted safe.

When you have to grade on the curve that is Republicanism, Palin moves to the head of the class.

(BTW, I thought and still think Mike Steele would have been the best pick.)

mt

[63dot]

Explain?

I have made no secret that I don't like either candidate worth a d**n
I don't think either has a high probability of success

Yes, part of that is due to the economic situation they will inherit
But I don't think either can galvanize the nation, both will divide it

I have not been a McCain supporter from the beginning


Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

The winner will have to work very cooperatively with the other side to help stave off a depression. We have no more time for partisan politics. There is Iraq, global warming, gas prices, the economy, and a record deficit, in terms of real dollars. This is the time for America to be one country working together, not two countries blaming each other. If McCain wins, he should have Obama as an advisor and vice versa. Pelosi, as well as Dole need to be in on the recovery plan. We need the input of Romney, Senator Clinton, Mike Huckabee, and Rudolph Giuliani. Clinton worked with Newt and Reagan worked with Tip and our country had 13 1/2 of 16 years on the upswing economically. 1981-86, 1993-2001

[MacDawg]

Give the guy a chance.

I think he will be given his chance, but I am not optimistic

I for one wish we could start over :o

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

[skunk]

I might be one of the few, but as a moderate Democrat Palin IS the reason I won't vote for McCain.As a "moderate Democrat", why would you even consider voting for McCain? :confused:

[DakotaGuy]

As a "moderate Democrat", why would you even consider voting for McCain? :confused:

Because I don't consider Obama a moderate, however I guess this time around he will have to do. McCain is (or I should say was) a moderate. By picking Palin though he catered to the right wingers and that turns me off.

I am from South Dakota. A Democrat here would be a Republican on the East or West coast. We are just more conservative people in general and leery of too much Federal Government control.

[IJ Reilly]

I think the GOP realized too late they would be facing Obama and not Clinton
And I think they underestimated the appeal that Obama would garner
They never dreamed he could capture the attention he has or overcome the race issues

By the time they did... they were stuck with McCain, and he was not the answer
They added Palin to counteract it... and it failed

Now they will have 4 years to attack Obama and set aside their differences
Time will tell how well they do on both counts

Perhaps, but if you look at the candidates the GOP fielded in the primaries, I don't think you'll find one who could have generated wide appeal. Remembering also that the McCain primary campaign was all but dead early on, but recovered after Obama began to look like a serious challenger to Clinton. This is a year when a lot of the old rules were broken.

[Counterfit]

Perhaps, but if you look at the candidates the GOP fielded in the primaries, I don't think you'll find one who could have generated wide appeal.

And one of them, *cough*fredthompson*cough*, has been spouting the same crap that we would expect out of Hannity and Coulter.

I actually saw the first episode of Law & Order he was on a few weeks ago. It's like he was campaigning right there!

[63dot]

Perhaps, but if you look at the candidates the GOP fielded in the primaries, I don't think you'll find one who could have generated wide appeal.

I think if it were Romney v. Obama right now, we would be at a near stalemate.

[IJ Reilly]

I think if it were Romney v. Obama right now, we would be at a near stalemate.

I doubt it. Now there's a guy who'd have big problems mobilizing the Republican base.

[trebblekicked]

i think palin may have been the worst candidate for vice president ever put forward, but not necessarily the worst pick. as ij said, the choice of palin gave mccain his only real sustained momentum of the campaign. he needed to shore up support among the social conservatives, which she did. she was a modestly effective attack dog, and drove far more news cycles than biden did.

and think of the timing. the dnc was, by almost all accounts, a ten. obama had just given the best speech of his campaign in front of 70 odd thousand supporters in a mountain west state. at the time, obama was polling 3-4 points ahead of mccain, and the post-convention bounce likely would have sent him up another 4. can you imagine what would have happened if john mccain rolled over and picked, say, tim pawlenty? the collective yawn from america would have sunk his campaign just as fast as lehmangate did.

john mccain isn't an idiot (though steve schmidt might be), he knew palin was a band aid. this was an insanely tough year to run as a republican, an even worse one to run as an establishment republican. palin gave mccain a few news cycles of breathing room to try to get something going.

of course, as soon as palin was held up against even the slightest of standards, she became more of a liability than an asset. in the end, mccain couldn't find a unique message for his campaign and fell back on fear, taxes, and more fear. as such, i see the election as more a referendum on how afraid americans are of obama- be it because he's a liberal, an intellectual, or a black man. i see palin's impact on the election to be appropriately shallow; a colorful footnote to a far more interesting paragraph.

sincerely,
the same guy who said "dumb and plumber" in that other thread

[solvs]

And I believe experience is far more important, of which Palin, as the VP pick, has more than Obama, the President pick.
Obama has more people working with and for him (maybe even just for) than she has in her "executive level" experience. She had little to do as mayor, and screwed that up (leaving with $22 million is debt when before her it had a surplus, among so many other things we've gone over so many times), not to mention her time as Gov, which also didn't seem to accomplish much other than being for a bridge to nowhere before she was against it (but still keeping the money) and redistributing the oil companies money back to the locals, but only them. I'd rather have what little Obama has of experience (of which there is some, ignore all you want) and the people who he will surround himself with, listen to, and delegate authority to than what we know McCain and Palin's people want to do, which is a lot of what we have now, which as you know isn't great.

Palin's definitely made some mistakes upon her entry to the national stage.
First impressions are a bitch, but you only get one.

But her entry shows where women can get
Much to their chagrin, as most of them seem to be rather embarrassed she is representing them right now, seemingly putting them back a few steps.

and also calls into serious question the Democratic party's current status as "the party of women"
For treating Hillary as an equal? :confused:

Especially reflecting how reporters, who are voting Democrat 80% to 20%, have treated her.
And you got that figure out of somewhere that isn't your butt?

And the award for most stereotypical post goes to...
Maybe, but it's not like they aren't playing that up with the you betchas and all, to shore up the "she's just like me, I'd like to have a beer with her, she's not an elitist" memes.

Because I don't consider Obama a moderate
Well... he is.

I don't know what to tell you.

[Cleverboy]

I think if it were Romney v. Obama right now, we would be at a near stalemate. I disagree. If the Republicans had picked Romney right now, absent some major gaffe, the Democrats would be LOSING, and possibly very badly. But, we'll never know. McCain's two greatest problems... are his age... and subsequently his VP pick. I can't honestly say Romney would have those issues.

~ CB

[Blue Velvet]

If the Republicans had picked Romney right now, absent some major gaffe, the Democrats would be LOSING, and possibly very badly.


I'm not entirely sure about that. It's still a change election; the Obama campaign were very prepared for Romney. People don't vote for a VP, and John McCain detests Romney; didn't want him anywhere near him.

But it's all a moot point.

[IJ Reilly]

Romney had all kinds of problems as a candidate, which is why he didn't win the nomination. I believe McCain gave the Republicans the best hope they were going to have in this very Democratic year, facing a very tough opponent in Obama.

[solvs]

Well, now we know.

Yes, yes she was.