Christian question alarms flight

[numediaman]

Pilot reportedly promoted Christianity on flight

(CNN) -- American Airlines is investigating reports that a pilot asked passengers to identify themselves as Christians so non-Christians on board could talk to them about their faith, a spokesman has said.

Spokesman Tim Kincaid said on Sunday the incident reportedly happened Friday on Flight 34 from Los Angeles, California, to John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City.

"It is under investigation," Kincaid said. "We've had some complaints about it."

Kincaid said the pilot, whose name was not released, reportedly asked Christian passengers to raise their hands before suggesting that the other passengers should discuss Christianity with those passengers.

What do you think would have happened had the pilot said "how many of you are Muslim?"

[iGav]

OMG... :rolleyes: the guy deserves to be sacked... and then bitch slapped... like hello?? :rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3472265.stm

[hvfsl]

I expect he was retireing or leaving, so he decided to go out with a bang.

[Mr. Anderson]

Ouch - I'm sure he meant well, but failed to realize the full outcome of his little proselytizing stunt....

D

[edesignuk]

What a prat, he's just asking for a http://upload.edesignuk.net/uploaded_data/smilies/smilie_bitchslap.gif

[iGav]

the scary thing is if this fruit wanted his passengers to be closer to 'God' all he had to do was push the controls all the way forward for 60 seconds... :eek: :eek: :p

[Dippo]

Originally posted by iGAV
OMG... :rolleyes: the guy deserves to be sacked... and then bitch slapped... like hello?? :rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3472265.stm

I can see where the pilot is coming from.

He was just sharing his faith with the passengers, while it might have been an odd way to do it, there wasn't anything wrong with it.

If you felt very passionately about something, you would want to tell everyone too.

[Raid]

... and these are the kind of guys they might be given weapons??

:D Now that would have been funny/scary. The piolt comes out with a gun and in an disturbed cracking voice says "Now all of you crazy non-christians raise your hand"... I'd bet there would be a lot of converts then. :p

[iGav]

Originally posted by Dippo
I can see where the pilot is coming from.

He was just sharing his faith with the passengers, while it might have been an odd way to do it, there wasn't anything wrong with it.

If you felt very passionately about something, you would want to tell everyone too.

it's probably not the best place to do it though really is it... 30,000ft, 500mph and then calling everybody who doesn't raise their hand 'crazy'?? hmmmmmmm... nothing wrong with that at all.. :rolleyes: :p

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by iGAV
the scary thing is if this fruit wanted his passengers to be closer to 'God' all he had to do was push the controls all the way forward for 60 seconds... :eek: :eek: :p he wouldn't have been the first if he did that...

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by Dippo
If you felt very passionately about something, you would want to tell everyone too.
[see sig.]

[Apple //e]

Originally posted by Dippo
I can see where the pilot is coming from.

He was just sharing his faith with the passengers, while it might have been an odd way to do it, there wasn't anything wrong with it.

If you felt very passionately about something, you would want to tell everyone too.



thats my problem with these people. they feel that they know whats better for you, and that theyre doing you a favor

[zimv20]

Originally posted by numediaman

What do you think would have happened had the pilot said "how many of you are Muslim?"

had the passengers not brought the plane down from collective panic, someone would have been arrested under terrorism charges.

it's sad and amazing to me that, even if the pilot is reprimanded, there's something about today's society that made the pilot think his actions were okay. and there's probably a lot of people who don't see anything wrong with it.

[3ric]

Faith is just that. When I fly, I like to have faith that the guy at the helm is level-headed, sober, and focused on what he's doing. This guy clearly fails the test.

People like this have a screw loose. (No doubt he uses Windows and likes it, too.) He has no business flying a plane. I hope they fire the SOB.

[rueyeet]

Originally posted by Dippo
I can see where the pilot is coming from.

He was just sharing his faith with the passengers, while it might have been an odd way to do it, there wasn't anything wrong with it.

If you felt very passionately about something, you would want to tell everyone too.

He's not getting paid to tell anyone about his religion; he's getting paid to fly an aircraft. Nor is he getting paid to insult the non-Christian portion of his passengers by calling them "crazy" and implying that they're wasting their time if they don't choose to convert to his faith during the flight. The religious choices of his passengers are none of his business or concern while he is on the job, no matter how passionately he feels about it.

Originally posted by Dippo
American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner said the incident was being investigated.

"It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," he added.

Darn tootin'.

[wdlove]

I don't think that he is crazy. He certainly tried to do good in the wrong way. After 9/11 he should have know better. A better way to do proselytizing is on a one to one basis.

[SilentPanda]

Originally posted by Apple //e
thats my problem with these people. they feel that they know whats better for you, and that theyre doing you a favor

That should probably read:

thats my problem with him. he felt that he knew whats better for you, and that he's doing you a favor

Generalizing that this is something airline pilots do or that (I'm assuiming you meant) Christian's do isn't necessarily the truth. I'm very much a Christian and think this guy did a very poor job expressing his viewpoint. I apologize if you or anybody else here for that matter has had a poor experience with being told about Christianity.

[iJon]

i would have been scared out of my mind if he said that. i would be trying to figure out exactly why he wants me to find god before we fly up into the air :)

iJon

[3ric]

Originally posted by SilentPanda
That should probably read:

I'm very much a Christian and think this guy did a very poor job expressing his viewpoint. I apologize if you or anybody else here for that matter has had a poor experience with being told about Christianity.

You're apologizing for what? Who are you? Jesus? How can you possibly apologize away centuries of murder, oppression, torture, discrimination, etc., that has occurred as a result of people "being told about" your wonderful religion?

Sheesh, I think this thread is ready for closure.

[SilentPanda]

Originally posted by iJon
i would have been scared out of my mind if he said that. i would be trying to figure out exactly why he wants me to find god before we fly up into the air :)

iJon


Heheh... my thoughts exactly.

[Stelliform]

Originally posted by wdlove
I don't think that he is crazy. He certainly tried to do good in the wrong way. After 9/11 he should have know better. A better way to do proselytizing is on a one to one basis.

I am a christian, I go to mass every week. (usually ;)) But I would not have raised my hand for him. Just having him ask that question makes me think he is insane.

It isn't that I am afraid to show my faith, but if anybody in a position of power on an airplane brings up religion in that manner, I would be certain that somebody would be dying soon.... If not the whole plane...

(also I am a private person, I don't ever give out my birthday even...)

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by 3ric
You're apologizing for what? Who are you? Jesus? How can you possibly apologize away centuries of murder, oppression, torture, discrimination, etc., that has occurred as a result of people "being told about" your wonderful religion?

Sheesh, I think this thread is ready for closure.

Why you are the first flamer here, most threads have been on the lines of he should be fired. I think you need to calm down. I expect this kind of flaming crap from PC users, but not Mac users. They are meant to be a more enlightened and understanding bunch.

Anyway, I can assure you that non-christains have killed more people over the years than christians.

[iJon]

Originally posted by hvfsl
Why you are the first flamer here, most threads have been on the lines of he should be fired. I think you need to calm down. I expect this kind of flaming crap from PC users, but not Mac users. They are meant to be a more enlightened and understanding bunch.

Anyway, I can assure you that non-christains have killed more people over the years than christians.
i love it how mac users consider all pc users unmature, uneducated people, and mac users are the cream of the crop. i think your comment was more pathetic than his.

iJon

[SilentPanda]

*calls the fire marshall*

[virividox]

theres a time and place for everything

he should have stuck at the job at hand and flown the damn plan, and pointed out what you could see on the right side of the plane and left side.

People ride planes to get to A to B, not for a catechism lesson, stupid pilot, good intentions, horrible excecution

[3ric]

Originally posted by hvfsl
Why you are the first flamer here, most threads have been on the lines of he should be fired. I think you need to calm down. I expect this kind of flaming crap from PC users, but not Mac users. They are meant to be a more enlightened and understanding bunch.

Anyway, I can assure you that non-christains have killed more people over the years than christians.

Let's see... the Inquisition, the Crusades, um, and lets not forget how the pagans of the British Isles were "converted." Then we have the native Americans in North America, the Aboriginal tribes of Australia, etc., etc... But, yes, I'm enlightened and understanding, so all of that is cool.

Things like this are WORTH getting ticked about. Look at the man occupying the white house... the justice department... the list goes on and on.

I'm a flamer because I object to the well-documented acts of barbarism and inhumanity by "Christians?" Please. If Christ could see what these people do and have done in in his name, he'd be ticked, too.

[SilentPanda]

Originally posted by 3ric
I'm a flamer because I object to the well-documented acts of barbarism and inhumanity by "Christians?" Please. If Christ could see what these people do and have done in in his name, he'd be ticked, too.

Jesus did see what these people are doing and showed them that he did not approve of it. One well known example is in John 2:12-17. He's not a fan of things being done wrongly in His name. So... I agree with you.

[pinto32]

Originally posted by hvfsl
Why you are the first flamer here, most threads have been on the lines of he should be fired. I think you need to calm down. I expect this kind of flaming crap from PC users, but not Mac users. They are meant to be a more enlightened and understanding bunch.

Anyway, I can assure you that non-christains have killed more people over the years than christians.

......ummm......I don't know what "flamer" means in England, but here in America it is a derrogitory term used by bigots to insult homosexual human beings.

While I understand that many christians are very happy with/proud of what they beleive, far to many of them fail to realize that 80% of the world does not see things as they do. Its a shame, because poeople like this just end up giving the rest of the congregation a bad name.

[SilentPanda]

Originally posted by pinto32
......ummm......I don't know what "flamer" means in England, but here in America it is a derrogitory term used by bigots to insult homosexual human beings.

Maybe I'm not in the loop here in the midwest but flamer means nothing of the sort you're speaking of. "Flamer" on the internet generally means one who posts with the intent to upset or provoke. Although after I did a little research I guess it does take on both meanings... but I'm certain that our English friend meant the more widely used definition (at least widely used Internet-wise).

[mactastic]

Oh man, I would have started a verbal riot on that plane after any length of time.... Good thing I wasn't flying with them!

[pinto32]

Originally posted by hvfsl
Why you are the first flamer here, most threads have been on the lines of he should be fired. I think you need to calm down. I expect this kind of flaming crap from PC users, but not Mac users. They are meant to be a more enlightened and understanding bunch.

Anyway, I can assure you that non-christains have killed more people over the years than christians.

......ummm......I don't know what "flamer" means in England, but here in America it is a derrogitory term used by bigots to insult homosexual human beings.

While I understand that many christians are very happy with/proud of what they beleive, far to many of them fail to realize that 80% of the world does not see things as they do. Its a shame, because poeople like this just end up giving the rest of the congregation a bad name.

As far as your claim about Christians not killing as much as non-christians, I agree that this is probably true, as Christianity is only 2,000 years old, and the earth is at least 4.5 billion years old (with multicellular organisms having been around for only a fraction of that), and there has been killing around for a solid 3.5 billion years. By those numbers, yes, non-christians are greater murderers. However, over the last 2,000 years, so many have been murdered in the name of Jesus Christ, it is impossible to call Christianity a peaceful religion (in general).

...Just look at the bible, its full of nothing but war, murder, anger, and revenge. Then, you have the entire middle ages, the colonization of the world, and the "settling" of America, among many others, and it is obvious just how hypocritical many Christians are. This is even before taking into account the religion's opposition to equal rights, animal rights, the enviroment, and social justice, as well as the life of every person on the continent of Africa (missionaries have been telling them for years that condoms do nothing to prevent AIDS and other STDs. They would rather kill them than have them go against thier "christian beleifs").

(I apologize to any "good" Christians, narrowminded people like this just really irk me.....)

[pinto32]

Thankyou, SilentPanda, I didnt know that....this is the only message board I have ever really gotten into, and that term isnt really used here (usually people just say "troll"). Cool....I got my vocab word for the day :D

[virividox]

lets keep to the topic at hand, ifyou want to discuss the crusades start a new thread, but lets try to remain focused

[SilentPanda]

I won't argue with you that people that attempt to represent the Christian religion have killed many non-christians. They have. I also won't pretend that it hasn't happened the other way around. 43 million Christians have been killed for their beliefs in the past 2,000 years with over 50% occuring in the last century (1900-2000). Approximately 300 Christians are killed every day for their beliefs alone. Now I don't know how they're going about displaying their beliefs. Obviously if somebody claiming to be a Christian runs into a police station with guns blazing trying to get people to convert that probably goes into the statistic just as well as the person who lives in a shack in the mountains by himself peacefully and is killed for being a Christian also. (stats obtained from http://www.christiansincrisis.net but can be found on numerous sites)

It also may very well be that people representing the Christan faith have killed more than 43 million non-christians in the past 2000 years. I really don't know.

I would agree that the majority of the old testament is filled with war, murder, anger, and revenge. The Bible, like any book that contains history, will have these events. Most history that is taught in schools is about war and anger. People tend to remember the bad things. So I'll give you that also.

I'm not extremely aware of the social implications that Christianity has had on society in regards to the rights of people. I suppose I am in some areas but not in others. If you could show me some closer examples I might be interested in taking a look at them.

Thanks!

[SilentPanda]

Originally posted by virividox
lets keep to the topic at hand, ifyou want to discuss the crusades start a new thread, but lets try to remain focused

Sorry... :(

I think I would probably be freaked if a pilot said that and I'm a Christian... hopefully on my flight this Friday I won't have none of that... *yikes!*

[wwworry]

at least he was not drunk. or was he....

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=drunk+pilot&btnG=Google+Search

[CelticBhoy]

Often the media simply picks up on the extreme examples of the Christian faith. While making a good story, it just misrepresents what's happening at grass roots level. The same could be said for moslems, who must be sick fed up of extremists grabbing the headlines. Perhaps this is the case for this story on bbc, and for some of the comments posted here.

Now, Jesus would be (is?) appalled at what has been done in his name by people who have hijacked the Christian faith over the years. Thankfully the church now is made up largely of those who want to go rather than feel they have to go (and who have invariably misrepresented the church).

The church I go to has a respectful attitude towards evangelism, a healthy interest in helping those in need, and a concern for the marginalised in society. To get the thoughts of Jesus, read through the first few books in the New Testament. Don't go with what you think he said. Look at what he actually said. I found it a very enlightening experience !

So, chill out guys !

[coolsoldier]

I see no problem with this, personally. The pilot was well within his rights to speak of his beliefs, a right that he should not lose just because he happens to be doing his job at the same time. Nobody on the plane had to respond to that comment or even listen to it.

It is just beyond reason to expect that nobody will ever offend you. This is not something I would have done, and it's not something I would have responded to if I had been on the plane. People say stupid things sometimes. And people who are mature and confident learn to ignore them. Apparently the immature just whine.

[SilentPanda]

Originally posted by coolsoldier
I see no problem with this, personally. The pilot was well within his rights to speak of his beliefs, a right that he should not lose just because he happens to be doing his job at the same time. Nobody on the plane had to respond to that comment or even listen to it.

To me though, with times being as they are, this is on the verge of yelling "Fire!" in a movie theatre when there is none.

And totally off topic... CelticBhoy... I love your country... Scotland rocks my cat's pajamas. :) Granted I've only really been to Edinburgh...

[Engagebot]

Originally posted by Dippo
I can see where the pilot is coming from.

He was just sharing his faith with the passengers, while it might have been an odd way to do it, there wasn't anything wrong with it.

If you felt very passionately about something, you would want to tell everyone too.

sharing your faith with people is fine. endangering their lives at your whim is not.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by coolsoldier
I see no problem with this, personally. The pilot was well within his rights to speak of his beliefs, a right that he should not lose just because he happens to be doing his job at the same time. Nobody on the plane had to respond to that comment or even listen to it.

It is just beyond reason to expect that nobody will ever offend you. This is not something I would have done, and it's not something I would have responded to if I had been on the plane. People say stupid things sometimes. And people who are mature and confident learn to ignore them. Apparently the immature just whine.

Now I don't know about you personally, but I would venture to guess most people who see no problem with this and want the 'whiners' to 'ignore' stuff that offends them were highly vocal about being offended by JJ's tit.

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by 3ric
Let's see... the Inquisition, the Crusades, um, and lets not forget how the pagans of the British Isles were "converted." Then we have the native Americans in North America, the Aboriginal tribes of Australia, etc., etc... But, yes, I'm enlightened and understanding, so all of that is cool.

Things like this are WORTH getting ticked about. Look at the man occupying the white house... the justice department... the list goes on and on.

I'm a flamer because I object to the well-documented acts of barbarism and inhumanity by "Christians?" Please. If Christ could see what these people do and have done in in his name, he'd be ticked, too.

More can be done by talking about your views in a carm manor than getting all angry and worked up. People just flame back if you flame and no one gets their views accross in the end.

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by pinto32
......ummm......I don't know what "flamer" means in England, but here in America it is a derrogitory term used by bigots to insult homosexual human beings.

(I apologize to any "good" Christians, narrowminded people like this just really irk me.....)

1.The meaning of the word flamer has already been posted on this thread and it has nothing to do with being gay. I cant understand why you would even get the idea I was talking about anything to do with gays. :confused:

No need for personal insults.
;)

Anyway, my point is that things are not black and white, all religions and people with no religion also kill. People seem to be singling out Christanity as a religion of killers in this thread.

People have to justify things, otherwise they dont get support for things. If people are saying they are doing it in the name of God, like the crusades, then people will more likely support it. There is nothing stopping someone from claiming to be a christain and going into a school and killing people.

[coolsoldier]

Originally posted by mactastic
Now I don't know about you personally, but I would venture to guess most people who see no problem with this and want the 'whiners' to 'ignore' stuff that offends them were highly vocal about being offended by JJ's tit.

That really didn't bother me either. Most people honestly don't know how to look the other way. And I'm equally ambivalent to being evangelized to by non-christian religions and the non-religious. If I am not confident enough in my beliefs to deal with being exposed to things that I disagree with and/or that offend me, then I would probably do well to hear them anyway.

Beliefs that can't stand in the face of opposition are probably not strong enough to consider holding. But that's just my own belief. ;)

[Mr. Anderson]

Lets try to keep the discussion cordial, ok?

This is a hot topic, almost as bad as the pilot asking all the passengers who's a Mac owner/user to raise there hands (actually makes about as much sense if you think about it - its irrelevant to his job)

D

[Dros]

Originally posted by coolsoldier
I see no problem with this, personally. The pilot was well within his rights to speak of his beliefs, a right that he should not lose just because he happens to be doing his job at the same time. Nobody on the plane had to respond to that comment or even listen to it.

I wouldn't have been offended by it. On the other hand, a world where every single person felt it was OK to tell you their personal beliefs and attempt to convert you would be intolerable. It wouldn't be a matter of not responding or listening if everyone exercised that right. So the pilot was abusing his power. Passengers are told to listen to the pilot because they might impart crucial information during an emergency. Instead, they get irrelevant information. He should be fired for that, and for calling passengers 'crazy'. I don't want to be flying with a pilot that thinks a portion of the passengers are crazy. What if we go down? Do the 'saved' get the life jackets? He is still free to express his beliefs in the appropriate context, and I don't think I'm a whiner for saying this was inappropriate.

[minipoduser]

The pilot is not within his rights to express his opinion - especially in today's climate.

For those who somehow think what he said in the context of his job is appropriate, would it have been appropriate for him to say the same thing, except substituting the following for "Christian":

1. Black/White
2. Pro/Anti Abortion
3. Handicapped
4. Democrat/Republican
5. Pro/Anti Gun Control
6. Pro/Anti Capital Punishment
7. Stoic/Epicurean
8. Muslim
9. PC User
10. Lunatic, etc.

The point is, it is NEVER appropriate for a pilot, in his capacity as pilot, to say anything other than the most mundane things - and the only proselytising that is sane is the type that begins and ends with "Thank you for flying American Airlines - we hope to see you again real soon."

Saying anything else - whether sane in another context (like, for example, a Moonie proselytizing at the airport outside of the airplane<g>) - shows extremely poor judgment and and a lack of levelheadedness that bars one for qualification as a pilot.

[minipoduser]

One more thing on a humorous note - Someone I know refuses to fly Garuda Airlines, the airline of Bali in Indonesia because he thinks it's dangerous to fly with a pilot who believes in reincarnation. One might say the same thing for a pilot who believes too firmly that he's "saved".

[coolsoldier]

Originally posted by minipoduser The pilot is not within his rights to express his opinion - especially in today's climate.

If true, that is a problem.


For those who somehow think what he said in the context of his job is appropriate, would it have been appropriate for him to say the same thing, except substituting the following for "Christian":

<list>


OK, I would personally not have a problem with any of those. I might think that they were a little strange (especially the black/white -- I might be a little freaked out if I thought the pilot was blind), but for the most part, I would not place such comments in the context of "man as pilot" (hence in the context of his job), but rather in the context of "man on plane" (in the context of his life as a human, which he does not forefit while he is working). Since the pilot is both, it's up to the listener to figure out whether or not what the pilot said was in the context of his job or not. In this case it clearly was not.

A listener on the plane who can't figure out that a somebody who is talking about his religion isn't speaking as a pilot...

Is that really who we want deciding who should be able to fly an airplane?

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by Dros
I wouldn't have been offended by it. On the other hand, a world where every single person felt it was OK to tell you their personal beliefs and attempt to convert you would be intolerable. It wouldn't be a matter of not responding or listening if everyone exercised that right. So the pilot was abusing his power. Passengers are told to listen to the pilot because they might impart crucial information during an emergency. Instead, they get irrelevant information. He should be fired for that, and for calling passengers 'crazy'. I don't want to be flying with a pilot that thinks a portion of the passengers are crazy. What if we go down? Do the 'saved' get the life jackets? He is still free to express his beliefs in the appropriate context, and I don't think I'm a whiner for saying this was inappropriate.

But we have so many adverts all over the place that are trying to 'convert' us to buying their products. This is no different. I do agree that it was not a good place to do it because the passangers could not leave.

But it is not as bad as the people that try and sell time share holiday homes.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by coolsoldier
If true, that is a problem.


Why? Whether performing duties of my job or not, when I'm on the clock, I would quickly be fired for expressing views on these subjects. Almost every company in America has a policy on politics and religion in the workplace, they pay you to WORK not to potentially offend people (at the company's liability no less). This pilot should be fired and blacklisted. For the simple fact that if he was stupid enough to think this was a good idea, he's too stupid to fly a plane. I'm not saying he's stupid for having a Christian faith system, rather for very inappropriately expressing it.

paul

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Apple //e
thats my problem with these people. they feel that they know whats better for you, and that theyre doing you a favor

Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. -- CS Lewis

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by 3ric
You're apologizing for what? Who are you? Jesus? How can you possibly apologize away centuries of murder, oppression, torture, discrimination, etc., that has occurred as a result of people "being told about" your wonderful religion?

Sheesh, I think this thread is ready for closure.

Christianity is not the only religion that has been abused by fanatical elements to cause havoc...

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by minipoduser
For those who somehow think what he said in the context of his job is appropriate, would it have been appropriate for him to say the same thing, except substituting the following for "Christian":

1. Black/White
2. Pro/Anti Abortion
3. Handicapped
4. Democrat/Republican
5. Pro/Anti Gun Control
6. Pro/Anti Capital Punishment
7. Stoic/Epicurean
8. Muslim
9. PC User
10. Lunatic, etc.


you forgot...

11. Boeing vs Airbus
12. Jet vs Propeller

:p

[3ric]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Christianity is not the only religion that has been abused by fanatical elements to cause havoc...

Oh, quite right, quite right.

It's time mankind moves beyond this religion crapola. I mean, when they first thought of gods, they were the sun, the moon, many natural forces... then as man learned more he realized natural forces were just that and (the Jews specifically) came up with monotheism. Well, now we know better. Actually, a lot still haven't caught up, but the point remains that religion per se is worthless. Oh sure, there's value in community service, doing good, helping others, etc. And the chief value of the original monotheists (basically "be good") was a wonderful contribution to the world.

But people like that airline pilot... fundamentalists who take literally the dogma that "God" created man in his image (when the reverse is actually true)... people who'd force their religious values on others (and there are plenty), and yes the loony Al Qaedas... they are all one and the same and should be taken out behind the barn and shot.

I wish I could live to see the day when belief in some allknowing, omniscient, narcisstic diety is regarded as a queer trait of man's early days.

[IJ Reilly]

The pilot's only job is to fly the airplane. Any airline that doesn't have a policy prohibiting their employees from preaching to their captive passengers is an airline I won't be patronizing. Further, one of a pilot's most important assets is the quality of their judgment -- something the pilot in question clearly lacks.

[coolsoldier]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
Why? Whether performing duties of my job or not, when I'm on the clock, I would quickly be fired for expressing views on these subjects. Almost every company in America has a policy on politics and religion in the workplace, they pay you to WORK not to potentially offend people (at the company's liability no less). This pilot should be fired and blacklisted. For the simple fact that if he was stupid enough to think this was a good idea, he's too stupid to fly a plane. I'm not saying he's stupid for having a Christian faith system, rather for very inappropriately expressing it.

I do not believe that you should or should have to forfeit your humanity while you are working (being self-employed makes it easy to say that ;)). And it is utterly ridiculous that the company has to even consider being held responsible for the personal comments of an employee.

I haven't read this guys employment contract though, if it takes away his freedom of expression while he is working, so be it. If he was stupid enough to sign a contract that said that, then he is too stupid to fly a plane. However, violation of his contract or not, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with his actions.

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by 3ric
You're apologizing for what? Who are you? Jesus? How can you possibly apologize away centuries of murder, oppression, torture, discrimination, etc., that has occurred as a result of people "being told about" your wonderful religion?

People use any means they can to justify their actions. People have used religion, nationality, money, land, you name it, they've used it. Yes mistakes were made in the past in the name of Christianity, just as violence is being done today in the name of Islam, yet I would hardly accuse all Muslims of such violent acts, nor condemn their religion as being guilty of all the attrocities commited in its name.

[CelticBhoy]

We live in a world where a small minority of people (mac users) just simply see things differently from everyone else. Everyone has access to the same info (pc's & macs), some people choose to ignore what's different (macs), while others dare I say 'religiously' follow the mac.

Now, there's a sizeable minority of people in the world who have faith. I'm not talking about hangers on, I'm talking about people who reflect their faith by the lives they lead (Mother Theresa et al). There's some people who've posted here who simply choose to ignore faith, or have looked and decided it's not for them.

But like mac users, give people space to think differently on faith than you do. You might just be wrong, and they are right. Just like us mac users are right ! Aren't we ? Or will future generations see the mac as a silly, quaint phase of mankind as well ?

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by 3ric
Oh, quite right, quite right.

It's time mankind moves beyond this religion crapola. I mean, when they first thought of gods, they were the sun, the moon, many natural forces... then as man learned more he realized natural forces were just that and (the Jews specifically) came up with monotheism. Well, now we know better. Actually, a lot still haven't caught up, but the point remains that religion per se is worthless. Oh sure, there's value in community service, doing good, helping others, etc. And the chief value of the original monotheists (basically "be good") was a wonderful contribution to the world.

But people like that airline pilot... fundamentalists who take literally the dogma that "God" created man in his image (when the reverse is actually true)... people who'd force their religious values on others (and there are plenty), and yes the loony Al Qaedas... they are all one and the same and should be taken out behind the barn and shot.

I wish I could live to see the day when belief in some allknowing, omniscient, narcisstic diety is regarded as a queer trait of man's early days.

'When people stop beleiveing in god, they believe in anything' - Steven Fry (not a christain BTW)

I think you need to rethrase your post because you come off sounding very aragant. You are stating your views, not fact. No one has proved that god does not excist (it is very hard to disprove anything, let alone disprove this). People complain about the pilot shoving his religion down others, but you are doing exactly the same here.

You say that the world would be a better palace without religion. But I dont think that is possible, or it will ever be possible. Lets say people get rid of religion for a moment. People will just come up with new reasons to start wars etc. Most of the recent wars have not been over religion anyway (WW1 and 2, Cold War etc). Humanity needs a value system or it will get even worst than it is now. And religion is a one way that provides this.

The way I look at religion is if you ask your god/power/whatever to give you a sign that they excist. If they do, then you know it is true, but if they dont, ether they dont excist, or they are not worth worshipping anyway because they cant be bothered to awnser you.

[minipoduser]

Come on - passengers on a plane are a captive audience and can't just tune out controversial things that a pilot says. Hearing a pilot proselytize, even if you are Christian, causes some anxiety with most people because it is so out of place and improper from a person in whose hands you are placing your life. When you start questioning the sanity of your pilot, you are in for a rough, unpleasant ride.

Airlines do everything in their power to keep a calm environment on the plane - they don't show certain types of movies (e.g., ones involving plane crashes or, for that matter, ones involving proselytization), they use calm tones when they are talking over the mikes, etc. Even the food service on a plane is geared mainly to keep people in a calm environment - to give them something to think about besides the fact that they are 30,000 feet in the air in a narrow, metal tube that may or may not be ready for the junk heap.

As for a pilot's right to express his opinion - the first amendment just does not govern this situation. Employers are free to ban talk of certain things and do so all the time. The United States (and individual states') government is not allowed to prescribe or proscribe religion, but American Airlines is not the government and unless you are on a pentacostal charter flight to the Holy Land, the pilot has no business expressing his viewpoints on any controversial item that may be likely to upset passengers.

What if, by his statements, the pilot triggered some unbalanced non-Christian to go beserk? - after all, if they were as cuckoo as the pilot, and were not in the position of absolute control that the pilot was, they just might decide that it was the right time to conduct a voodoo sacrifice of salted peanuts in the aisleway.

Would you still feel comfortable if the pilot started talking about his newfound commitment to idol worship and had the crew pass out statuettes of Baal for personal worship and reflection? How about if he decided to tell you that he's been a lifelong member of a cult dedicated to the praise of Satan? He's got a perfect right to do whatever he wants to in his off-time, but, I gotta tell you, if one of my employees came into the office and started calling my clients to tell them about their born-again love for Beelzebubba, I would fire them and no court would hold me liable for damages. In this case, the pilots have a written code of conduct and professionalism which has been violated, so it's a no-brainer for the airline to fire him. Remember, he's not speaking on the street or at his church or on a Costa Rican mission - he's speaking to the clients and customers of American Airlines (not his friends, not his customers, not random people he happened to meet in the street, and not people who can just get up out of their seats and walk away) - he has absolutely no right in this context to say anything not sanctioned by his employer and, conversely, his employer, American Airlines, is absolutely responsible for any discomfort suffered by its customers. He has done what you don't want any employee to do, he's subjected his employer to claims for refunds and infliction of emotional distress. American Airlines will be lucky to get away with comping everyone on the flight. So, by speaking his mind, he's stolen money from his employer and the investors in American Airlines. You or I would be fired for that - and so should he.

[mactastic]

There have long been restrictions on what you can/can't say at certain jobs. Sexual harrassment anyone? What if making vulgar jokes is my way of expressing my 'humanity'? Is that acceptable at work?

What if the pilot had come on and asked who had genital piercings, then told the rest of the people to talk to them about having them done? Acceptable?

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by minipoduser
So, by speaking his mind, he's stolen money from his employer and the investors in American Airlines. You or I would be fired for that - and so should he.

Fired, right off?
How about a severe warning and a reprimand on his employment record?
How about a fine, or mandatory days off without pay?

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by 3ric
It's time mankind moves beyond this religion crapola. I mean, when they first thought of gods, they were the sun, the moon, many natural forces... then as man learned more he realized natural forces were just that and (the Jews specifically) came up with monotheism. Well, now we know better. Actually, a lot still haven't caught up, but the point remains that religion per se is worthless. Oh sure, there's value in community service, doing good, helping others, etc. And the chief value of the original monotheists (basically "be good") was a wonderful contribution to the world.

But...

some people NEED to believe in a higher order being in order to "be good". So, for these people, having religion achieves the same thing that you might not need.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Fired, right off?
How about a severe warning and a reprimand on his employment record?
How about a fine, or mandatory days off without pay?

That's what happens if you've got a union backing you. Without one you get fired. Right off.;)

[radhak]

In strife-ridden areas of the world, particularly those where the strife is driven by religion or ethnicity, any such question would have caused many to lose control on their body-fluids, and the bus (or train or plane) would literally stink.

There have been occasions in the past in Sri Lanka when a bus was stopped mid-road, and a mild-mannered guy would enter and ask, 'which of you are Tamils?' (or non-Tamils, depending on the geography within the island); those acknowledging would be escorted out of the bus and shot preremptorily. Similar scenario, other religions or reasons, other countries in southeast Asia, or many of the warring African nations, each following its own particular agenda for blood letting. (Please don't jump on me if i missed some names here, i am just illustrating).

Given the particulars of this case (enclosed area, 'captive' audience; person of authority and with power to do harm; choice of words) , the pilot's action were offensive at the least, threatening and potentially traumatic at the worst. He should be fired summarily.

In today's climate, if a passenger did much less, like stand up and shout 'Allah-o-Akbar" (which is nothing more than 'God is Great', but then, he would be referring to the Islamic God ;) ), the pilot might ask him to get off the plane and the Airlines might back the pilot.

Originally posted by iGAV
OMG... :rolleyes: the guy deserves to be sacked... and then bitch slapped... like hello?? :rolleyes:

Btw, iGav, you did not seem to like the the female passenger. i did not get that...why?

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by minipoduser
Would you still feel comfortable if the pilot started talking about his newfound commitment to idol worship and had the crew pass out statuettes of Baal for personal worship and reflection? How about if he decided to tell you that he's been a lifelong member of a cult dedicated to the praise of Satan? He's got a perfect right to do whatever he wants to in his off-time, but, I gotta tell you, if one of my employees came into the office and started calling my clients to tell them about their born-again love for Beelzebubba, I would fire them and no court would hold me liable for damages. In this case, the pilots have a written code of conduct and professionalism which has been violated, so it's a no-brainer for the airline to fire him. Remember, he's not speaking on the street or at his church or on a Costa Rican mission - he's speaking to the clients and customers of American Airlines (not his friends, not his customers, not random people he happened to meet in the street, and not people who can just get up out of their seats and walk away) - he has absolutely no right in this context to say anything not sanctioned by his employer and, conversely, his employer, American Airlines, is absolutely responsible for any discomfort suffered by its customers. He has done what you don't want any employee to do, he's subjected his employer to claims for refunds and infliction of emotional distress. American Airlines will be lucky to get away with comping everyone on the flight. So, by speaking his mind, he's stolen money from his employer and the investors in American Airlines. You or I would be fired for that - and so should he.

you're exactly right, i was just going to make the satanism reference-- All of you that believe he did nothing wrong, would you feel the same way if he was a satanist? buddhist? neo-pagan? If he asked "How many people here worship the blood god Kali? If you don't, you're crazy!" If he had been one of these other religions... he would be facing federal terrorism charges right now. Consider him lucky that he's Christian, therefore shown the usual preferrential treatment.

paul

[minipoduser]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Fired, right off?
How about a severe warning and a reprimand on his employment record?
How about a fine, or mandatory days off without pay?

Yes, fired - right off. If I cost my employer over $100,000 because of a deliberate and inappropriate statement, and compounded that by refusing to apologize to my employer's customers, just to my co-workers for being burdened with complaints, then I would deserve to be fired. Moreover, he has brought incredible negative publicity on American Airlines and wipes out millions of dollars worth of advertising. Being a pilot is not the same as being a bus driver, it involves putting someone in control of a multi-multi-multi-million dollar aircraft and being responsible for hundreds of lives. If a pilot does something that is outside the bounds of good judgment - proselytizing or baring his behind - he should be out. It destroys consumer confidence in American Airlines and hurts their bottom line. He can go fly FedEx planes and still make a living - he just doesn't have the temperment to fly with many passengers - and temperment is exactly what counts in commercial passenger flight. Should the Super Bowl re-hire Janet Jackson next year? Or just lay her off until the next bowl game?

[Frohickey]

What if it were El-Al, and a Jewish pilot?
Or Egypt Air, and a Muslim pilot?

Same treatment?

[minipoduser]

Originally posted by Frohickey
What if it were El-Al, and a Jewish pilot?
Or Egypt Air, and a Muslim pilot?

Same treatment?

Yes - El Al pilots are forbidden from making statements such as that - they would be fired immediately - even though there are religious prayer groups of passengers on every El Al flight. I think the same should go for Egypt Air, but I don't know their policy.

Remember, it was a divisive statement (the presumption was that not everyone on the flight was Christian). It was not a statement on the order of wishing the passengers "Merry Christmas" vs. "Happy Holidays". If he wants to spread the Word, he can fly charter flights of evangelists and preach to the converted - nothing wrong with that - trying to convert those who don't want to be - plenty wrong with that on American Airlines' dime.

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Or Egypt Air, and a Muslim pilot?

Same treatment? There are a lot of people, especially in the New England area I bet, that won't be flying on that airline anytime soon...

[Apple //e]

Originally posted by SilentPanda
That should probably read:

thats my problem with him. he felt that he knew whats better for you, and that he's doing you a favor

Generalizing that this is something airline pilots do or that (I'm assuiming you meant) Christian's do isn't necessarily the truth. I'm very much a Christian and think this guy did a very poor job expressing his viewpoint. I apologize if you or anybody else here for that matter has had a poor experience with being told about Christianity.

by "these people" i mean any religious fundamentalist.

i dont discriminate between religions. i dislike all fundamentalists of all religions equally.

[coolsoldier]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
you're exactly right, i was just going to make the satanism reference-- All of you that believe he did nothing wrong, would you feel the same way if he was a satanist? buddhist? neo-pagan? If he asked "How many people here worship the blood god Kali? If you don't, you're crazy!"

Ah, so one pilot tells you about the blood god Kali, but what's to say the pilot who says nothing doesn't feel exactly the same way? If the pilot of the airplane holds those beliefs, you can either:

a) know that, because he's allowed to tell you or
b) not know that, because he's been forbidden to tell you.

Add to b) the fact that if he feels repressed for not being able to express his beliefs, he is likely more dangerous, and I think I would rather know.

[KC9AIC]

As a Christian, I understand his desire to witness to every person he can, but I don't think that he should have done this. He likely offended people and put them farther away from being Christian than if he hadn't done it.

[pinto32]

The fact is, those passengers were paying hundreds of dollars to be on that plane. When you are plunking down that much money, you have bought the right to be free from brainwashing by the very same company (honestly, whens the last time you were at a job orientation where they didnt say that each and every employee represents the company??).

You know what I can't wait for? I bet that this Sunday all the televangelists are praising this guy for standing up for all the "opressed christians" in America.

I can't help but suspect that this pilot knew exactly what he was doing...he probably just wanted to immortalize himself in the hearts and minds of the bible belt, just as the Alabama judge did a few months ago...


(oh, and to the British fellow, I apologize for accusing you of that....my bad)

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by 3ric
Oh, quite right, quite right.

It's time mankind moves beyond this religion crapola. I mean, when they first thought of gods, they were the sun, the moon, many natural forces... then as man learned more he realized natural forces were just that and (the Jews specifically) came up with monotheism. Well, now we know better. Actually, a lot still haven't caught up, but the point remains that religion per se is worthless. Oh sure, there's value in community service, doing good, helping others, etc. And the chief value of the original monotheists (basically "be good") was a wonderful contribution to the world.

But people like that airline pilot... fundamentalists who take literally the dogma that "God" created man in his image (when the reverse is actually true)... people who'd force their religious values on others (and there are plenty), and yes the loony Al Qaedas... they are all one and the same and should be taken out behind the barn and shot.

I wish I could live to see the day when belief in some allknowing, omniscient, narcisstic diety is regarded as a queer trait of man's early days.

First, while I respect your right to believe in whatever you choose, I think that you had better show a little more respect for other peoples beliefs as well.

Simply because you don't believe in something doesn't make it not true. You may feel that no such being as God or similar exists, but can you prove it? I doubt it, anymore than I can prove that he does exist.

You might think it foolish for me to believe in God, and I might think you foolish for not believing. Regardless of what you think, on this board atleast, you are expected to respect other peoples points of view. I would think as a Mac user you would prefer that people respect your right to think differently and not treat you like a brain dead idiot because of it.

[pinto32]

Originally posted by Krizoitz
First, while I respect your right to believe in whatever you choose, I think that you had better show a little more respect for other peoples beliefs as well.

Simply because you don't believe in something doesn't make it not true. You may feel that no such being as God or similar exists, but can you prove it? I doubt it, anymore than I can prove that he does exist.

You might think it foolish for me to believe in God, and I might think you foolish for not believing. Regardless of what you think, on this board atleast, you are expected to respect other peoples points of view. I would think as a Mac user you would prefer that people respect your right to think differently and not treat you like a brain dead idiot because of it.

So I take it you are equally outraged by the pilot who didn't have respect for non-believers?

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by pinto32
So I take it you are equally outraged by the pilot who didn't have respect for non-believers?

Absolutely, he was out of line. While he is at work, especially in a position like that he should respect other peoples views. If he wanted to go to work to preach his religion he should have become a minister.

I mean if I am inline at the supermarket, buying some ground beef for making some burgers (mmmmm burgers) I don't want some cashier going off on me about how I should be a vegetarian right?

[CMillerERAU]

Originally posted by minipoduser
The pilot is not within his rights to express his opinion - especially in today's climate.

For those who somehow think what he said in the context of his job is appropriate, would it have been appropriate for him to say the same thing, except substituting the following for "Christian":

1. Black/White
2. Pro/Anti Abortion
3. Handicapped
4. Democrat/Republican
5. Pro/Anti Gun Control
6. Pro/Anti Capital Punishment
7. Stoic/Epicurean
8. Muslim
9. PC User
10. Lunatic, etc.

The point is, it is NEVER appropriate for a pilot, in his capacity as pilot, to say anything other than the most mundane things - and the only proselytising that is sane is the type that begins and ends with "Thank you for flying American Airlines - we hope to see you again real soon."

Saying anything else - whether sane in another context (like, for example, a Moonie proselytizing at the airport outside of the airplane<g>) - shows extremely poor judgment and and a lack of levelheadedness that bars one for qualification as a pilot.

I agree that as a matter of professionalism pilots shouldn't be political while on the job. Of course pilots can, and should, make casual remarks and even light jokes with the passengers. They just have to be cautious about it. It really helps the passengers to have a pleasant, witty, I would say real person up front instead of a living autopilot that just says "Thank you for flying American Airlines - we hope to see you again real soon." Just my personal opinion.

[yamabushi]

I find the incident extremely disturbing. My first reaction if I was a passenger on that flight would have been to call the authorities immediately and inform them of a potentially suicidal pilot.

I will have to look into this further as I fly frequently. If this pilot has not been fired I will avoid flying on American Airlines in the future.

A pilot that has demonstrated such poor judgement has no business flying a commercial airliner. A company that would tolerate such behavior will not receive any of my business.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Apple //e
by "these people" i mean any religious fundamentalist.

i dont discriminate between religions. i dislike all fundamentalists of all religions equally.

The problem isn't fundamentalism. Everyone is entitled to what they believe. They are not entitled to get into other people's faces with their beliefs. The problem is aggressive evangelism, which is always offensive, and in this case, amazingly inappropriate.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by coolsoldier
Ah, so one pilot tells you about the blood god Kali, but what's to say the pilot who says nothing doesn't feel exactly the same way? If the pilot of the airplane holds those beliefs, you can either:

a) know that, because he's allowed to tell you or
b) not know that, because he's been forbidden to tell you.

Add to b) the fact that if he feels repressed for not being able to express his beliefs, he is likely more dangerous, and I think I would rather know.

This is really only valid if you believe every pilot has evangelism for some god on their mind. Because if the pilot is silent about his religious beliefs it might just mean he doesn't have any that he feels like professing to people. Or he might have none at all. You wouldn't know the difference if they don't tell you, but you would assume silence means they are hiding it from you.

[Taft]

This is really just a case of a companies "code of conduct" being violated.

While the pilot has the right to say anything he wants, saying certain things while on duty as a representative of the airline will get him into trouble with his employers.

I, personally, would be very offended if I was asked to identify my religion to a bunch of strangers so that certain ones among them could evangelize to me during the flight. I'm sure there are a lot more out there like me. Most companies realize that, during operation of their business, it doesn't make a lot of sense to allow employees to talk at length about their personal beliefs. That type of behavior typically has very little upside, and a lot of potential downside. Sure, some "Christian only" businesses exist and are successful, but that isn't true for most major corporations and businesses in this country.

So of course this guy should be able to speak his mind anywhere and at any time. But the airline has the right to fire him for the things he says. And if they don't, I have the right to choose a different airline.

But I think that most Americans realize that going down that path is a bad thing. Do you really want Christian-only airlines? Seperate facilities for Christians and non-Christians? Do most Christians feel comfortable talking about their beliefs to complete strangers on the plane? Even most evangelists would tell you that there is a time and a place for such activities.

Do people here really believe this man's actions were appropriate for that time and place? If so, then I think we are in even more trouble than I thought.

Taft

[vwcruisn]

i was on an american airlines flight just a month after 9/11. The pilot came on before we took off and told us that he considered us all his crew and that he trusts should anyone try to enter his cabin that we as his crew will take him down. That was kinda scary.. but not as scary as if he would have asked us what religion we were.

[coolsoldier]

So of course this guy should be able to speak his mind anywhere and at any time. But the airline has the right to fire him for the things he says.

Sure, you should be able to murder people. But the government has the right to execute you for the people you kill.

Free speech by definition is being allowed to say anything at any time to any person for any reason. Even if it is stupid. Even if it is not appropriate. Even if it is not convenient.

That is what free speech is.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by coolsoldier
Free speech by definition is being allowed to say anything at any time to any person for any reason. Even if it is stupid. Even if it is not appropriate. Even if it is not convenient.


So you are saying there are absolutely no limits on speech at all?

[coolsoldier]

Originally posted by mactastic
So you are saying there are absolutely no limits on speech at all?

How do you define "free"?

Saying speech is "free, but restricted", is like saying a product is "free when you pay $20". It's a contradiction in terms.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by coolsoldier
How do you define "free"?

Saying speech is "free, but restricted", is like saying a product is "free when you pay $20". It's a contradiction in terms.

I define it the way the courts do - with limits. Slander is illegal. Inciting a riot is illegal. Causing a panic is illegal. The limits on free speech aren't there to limit unpopular or downright stupid words, they are there to protect people from malicious use of those words.

And believe me, I'm not one to want to see limits on what people can say or think on their own time, but your boss has a right to ask you to dress a certain way, be groomed appropriately, refrain from drinking/drug use at work, and various other 'expressions of self'. As their employee you represent them to the world.

As an employer, how frustrating would it be to not be able to fire someone who was making racist comments to your customers because of their right to free speech? What about someone who knowingly prints or spreads false stories that you molest little boys? Say you operate a day care, or are a principle or teacher and your livelihood is taken from you by someone's words. Are they free to go on like that?

[nickfit]

What really annoys me about this incident is that the uproar, and I beliefe that this uproar is justified, gives fuel to people to say that the world is out to get Christians.

Certainly, one has the right to epress their religious beliefs. But what this pilot did was completely unprofessional, making non-Christians and Christians alike feel uncomfortable, if not completely scared. It's certainly not like saying merry Christmas, since his comments created an us against everyone else. I could disregard this kind of statement in most instances, but in an airplane? I would definetly start to think that the guy is off his rocker, you know, religious zealot at the controls of a plane. Afterall, if you even joke about about having a bomb or weapon when you board a plane you can be arrested. It's a simple issue of safety. His statement is ranks right up with their, if not higher, with joking around with airline security agents about bombs or weapons.


Again, I suspect that Pat Robertson is having a hay day with this. Oh look, the wolrd is full of Christian hating heathans. No, it just has issues with zealots. Much like people had issues with a judge placing placing a 2 ton monument to the ten commandments in a court house. The judge had every right to hold his faith, and practice his faith, but in his role as a judge he needed to make sure that he was impartial to those who present their cases in front of him. If I were a muslim entering that court, I would suspect that I would not get a fair trial. But of course the judge did not see it that way, and argued that the removal of the monument was an attack on his faith. He actually said that removing the monument was tantamount to telling him that he could not be a Christian. I guess the did not see the other side, such that such a monument was tantamount to telling people of other faiths that their faith was inferior.

Back to the idiot in the cockpit, whatever faith I might be, I would not think that I was going to get a safe flight if the pilot spouted off what he did.