Apple Retail Employee Concerns

[MacRumors]

Appleinsider posts (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=367) a small blurb about some Apple Retail employee concerns regarding store bonuses and practices.

[srobert]

Yuck! smells fishy.

[the_mole1314]

Yeah, that seems awful! One guy sold half a million in sales, and only got a quarter of the bonus he was guaranteed! Talk about rude! No wonder many Apple Store employees are mad....

[sickracer2015]

I used to work for an apple store and I remember this bonus as well.. the bonus stated "$1000 in your pocket" but after reading the fine print, only managers received the $1000, full time employees received $500 and part time employees that worked a certain amount of hours received $500 anyone who worked less than that set amount of hours only received a percentage from total sales. it really wasn't a deal.
We couldn't give tech help over the phone, no matter how easy it was, we had to tell them to call apple and either pay for the support or use applecare. I personally got fired for giving tech support online, and telling people how to mod areas of panther (macosxhints.com) I never told anyone who I was or that I worked for an applestore and I used a surname.

[Diatribe]

Why is it more and more like Apple makes awsome software has awsome design and is so bad that it's not even funny when it comes to quality assurance, acknowlegding problems and service unless you pay for it?
This is so funny when compared to Microsuck. They make ****ty software, their design is all right, nothing fancy. But they are acknowledging problems, although they don't solve them right away, and they have an awsome service.
I guess its impossible to have the best of two worlds. I still think Apple is screwing everyone over when they charge so much for phone support etc. Every freaking display manufacturer gives you 3 yrs. warranty Logitech even gives you 5 yrs. Why the hell can't Apple do that?
I mean I love the stuff Apple makes, but some things are just overly annoying.

[Stella]

From what I've heard, Apple is an awful employer, with this example and others:

There is also the case where Apple state in employees contracts that any software they write *IN THEIR OWN TIME* belongs to Apple...

There have been a few recent examples of Apple employees having to finish developing their shareware apps because of this.

Apple absolutely suck as an employer, some one should stand up to Apple and get them sorted out.

[arn]

Originally posted by Stella

There is also the case where Apple state in employees contracts that any software they write *IN THEIR OWN TIME* belongs to Apple...


From what I understand, this is not unique to Apple.

In fact, Steve Wozniak had to give HP (his employer at the time) "first dibs" on the original Apple Computer due to similar contractual obligations. HP passed on the product.

arn

[lind0834]

Ultimatly, in the retail markets the employees are under the local managment. Local managment likes to screw around with everybody's money. Anybody who ever worked anywhere retail or food service will tell you the managment practices are screwed up (I know I've seen it first hand lots of times).

If anybody had a list of all the employees of an Old Navy who were mad at them, nobody would care to much. Really doesn't seem newsworthy to me.

[Stella]

I cannot see how this can stand up in Law... maybe its just US law.

If Apple were in the UK, I don't think Apple would have a leg to stand on. Anyway, they are not.

I know in the UK, companies have rights to software if the employee uses knowledge they gain from their job... (even then, I think Apple would still lose if it came to court - due to unfair contract). Is this the same as the US?




Originally posted by arn
From what I understand, this is not unique to Apple.

In fact, Steve Wozniak had to give HP (his employer at the time) "first dibs" on the original Apple Computer due to similar contractual obligations. HP passed on the product.

arn

[arn]

Originally posted by Stella
I cannot see how this can stand up in Law... maybe its just US law.

If Apple were in the UK, I don't think Apple would have a leg to stand on. Anyway, they are not.


I don't claim to know the law... so I can't really comment.... but I'm just pointing out it's not unique to Apple.

arn

[Gimzotoy]

Originally posted by arn
I don't claim to know the law... so I can't really comment.... but I'm just pointing out it's not unique to Apple.

arn

Its true. This is standard practice in the computer industry. Most large firms require you to sign such agreements.

The catch is... no company has ever successfully sued an employee for the rights to a program developed on personal time. Companies consistantly lose these cases... so only those who can afford to fight them can continue development/keep their programs. Although, I'm sure many employees have given up developing outside software or the rights to that software instead of taking the risk of losing their job (which would seem likely).

So basically Stella was right, even in the US. However, few such cases actually make it to trial.

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by Stella
From what I've heard, Apple is an awful employer, with this example and others:

There is also the case where Apple state in employees contracts that any software they write *IN THEIR OWN TIME* belongs to Apple...

There have been a few recent examples of Apple employees having to finish developing their shareware apps because of this.

Apple absolutely suck as an employer, some one should stand up to Apple and get them sorted out.

This is a standard practice across many industries. In engineering the practice has even extended to saying that any patentable invention belongs to the employer, in extreme cases. More common is to say that any patentable invention that is in some way related to the job belongs to the employer.

While programming is a little different, the parallel is in the ownership of the copyright. And, as most programming has relation to other programming, it's not a hard stretch to argue that case law applies.

Originally posted by Gimzotoy
The catch is... no company has ever successfully sued an employee for the rights to a program developed on personal time...

Are you sure about that? I'm sure I've read of such a case... I'll ask my Patent/Copyright professor tonight...

[bousozoku]

Mostly, when I've signed on with a company, I've had a non-compete clause. For two to three years after leaving a company, I must not work in their industry. This hasn't been a problem under most circumstances, but I can't imagine how the two Borland engineers who just went to Microsoft could get away with it.

The companies where I've worked have stipulated that they have the rights to anything I develop on their machines, even if it's on my own time. If I develop it on my own machine, I'm in the clear.

Apple does seem to have horrid policies but as far as sales incentives go, I doubt they're much different from the horror stories I've heard from CompUSA and Best Buy.

[DharvaBinky]

Originally posted by arn
From what I understand, this is not unique to Apple.

In fact, Steve Wozniak had to give HP (his employer at the time) "first dibs" on the original Apple Computer due to similar contractual obligations. HP passed on the product.

arn

It is definately true of all universities, too. In fact, universities own all faculty, researcher, and student works.

I've had conversations with my boss about IP issues, since I have a little webapp development biz on the side and at work, we write data-driven web apps.

Dharvabinky

[Spock]

Yeah Apple took the peice of software from me that I wrote while working for Apple it was called iTunes. I wish I got somthing more than a slap on the back

[titaniumducky]

Originally posted by Spock
Yeah Apple took the peice of software from me that I wrote while working for Apple it was called iTunes. I wish I got somthing more than a slap on the back

Seriously? You wrote iTunes!? I think you're joking, but someone had to write it.

[Fast Shadow]

FWIW I believe Apple Retail and Apple Computer are somewhat isolated from each other. My company has a business relationship with Apple and things like discounts, etc, can't be extended through the retail stores, just via direct order from Apple. Our account rep indicated there's quite a bit of separation between the two. As a comparison, Volkswagen of America and Volkswagen of Germany are completely different companies, where the VWoA basically has license to award dealerships and distribute VWs in the USA.. I wonder if Apple's set up the same way with their retail outlets vs. the mothership.

[gotohamish]

At the soho store, I've been chatted up, flirted with, and given the pro service in the private office, and on other occasions, I've been insulted and given the most stupid advice or ideas.

Kinda weird, I still go back though- I just research well, and... check my email.

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by Gimzotoy
Companies consistantly lose these cases...

Based on my conversation with my teacher, who is a patent/copyright attorney, I find this hard to believe. If the employee signed the contract, then there's little ground for defense. When you sign an agreement, it doesn't matter much how outrageous the agreement is, you've made a legal declaration of consent to that outrageous agreement. You'd have to show that there was some level of subterfuge, coersion, or some other extraneous circumstance to have a defensible position in the face of a contract.

[djkny]

All starts with the top.

Steve Jobs seems like a total megalomaniac ______.

The mighty will fall, and how great will that fall be ....

Remember the power struggle?

[joeconvert]

Originally posted by Stella


There is also the case where Apple state in employees contracts that any software they write *IN THEIR OWN TIME* belongs to Apple...



Almost all technology companies have similar clauses.

[Doctor Q]

From the appleinsider report:Apple retail employees reportedly do not work on commission and are paid out between $8 and $12 an hour. "One fellow employee sold $500,000 worth of product in a single quarter and got a $500 bonus," one source said. The kick-back amounts to less than 1% of the total sale of the merchandise.
If the bonus should be proportional to the employee's sales, as this seems to imply, how, in principle, is that NOT working on commission?

[laserbeahm]

Whether the employees were getting paid $500 or $1,000, that is a crummy bonus for making $500,000 in sales. .1% really isn't good at all. As other people have said, I'm sure that kind of thing is going on a lot of other places.

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by titaniumducky
Seriously? You wrote iTunes!? I think you're joking, but someone had to write it.

I take it that you haven't met Spock and his hamster-powered PowerBook. :D

Doctor Q:

Commission would be available on an ongoing basis, not a temporary promotion. When I worked in retail selling cameras, I would receive 6 percent on any photographic equipment, but I also could receive instant bonuses for special items which the store and the manufacturer would pay.

[iJon]

Originally posted by Spock
Yeah Apple took the peice of software from me that I wrote while working for Apple it was called iTunes. I wish I got somthing more than a slap on the back
thats means you used to work for cassidy and greene too, cause they designed soundjam mp, who also designed intunes after they were hired by apple.

iJon

[el gringo]

if true - this really sucks!

i think this corporate ************...not considering the employees being a valuable asset - is real crap. the place where i work is almost the same...and the people working here under performs...mostly due to the exec's gives a **** about'em...

[corey]

Originally posted by laserbeahm
Whether the employees were getting paid $500 or $1,000, that is a crummy bonus for making $500,000 in sales. .1% really isn't good at all. As other people have said, I'm sure that kind of thing is going on a lot of other places. if people signed a contract that promised nothing more than this, they agreed to have "crummy" bonuses. i am guessing apple is an at will employer - if the sales person is really that good, they an probably get a higher paying job somewwhere esle if they really want to.

[Applespider]

I'd much rather have a salesperson not working on commission helping me. Otherwise how do I know that he's not trying to sell me something I don't need, just to help out his bonus? (in the UK, many electrical salesstaff get a bonus for the number of extended warranties they can sell)

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
From the appleinsider report:If the bonus should be proportional to the employee's sales, as this seems to imply, how, in principle, is that NOT working on commission?

Not really. Commissions are generally paid on all sales an individual or group makes during every reporting period.

A bonus is generally offered on performance or longevity. And may not be offered during all reporting periods.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by Applespider
I'd much rather have a salesperson not working on commission helping me. Otherwise how do I know that he's not trying to sell me something I don't need, just to help out his bonus? (in the UK, many electrical salesstaff get a bonus for the number of extended warranties they can sell)

But would you be willing to pay more for your goods and services? The $8 to $12 paid by Apple for retail employees is not even a livable wage for most areas that Apple has put their stores.

Having worked retail, I can say that sales is all about trying to close the sale. Commission really ratchets up the need to close. Bonuses do give a reason to at least try to close or to add on. Yet since the base salary remains the same, there is not a live or die attitude for the close.

Bonuses also help in keeping a workforce motivated. Otherwise you end up with drones like those at the QwikiMart.

[Applespider]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
But would you be willing to pay more for your goods and services? The $8 to $12 paid by Apple for retail employees is not even a livable wage for most areas that Apple has put their stores.

Bonuses do give a reason to at least try to close or to add on. Yet since the base salary remains the same, there is not a live or die attitude for the close.


When I'm making any major purchase (in the UK), I shop at John Lewis. They don't work on commission or individual bonus. They have performance related pay so those who work hardest (generally a combination of sales/support/advice) get paid more. The company as a whole have a bonus which is paid based on their results as a % of their salary (so again performance is rewarded)

And no, I don't pay more for my goods or services. I got an extra year's guarantee thrown in on my Powerbook, 5 years on my TV and they have a promise of 'never knowingly undersold' so if I did find it cheaper, they refund it.

[mrsebastian]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
But would you be willing to pay more for your goods and services? The $8 to $12 paid by Apple for retail employees is not even a livable wage for most areas that Apple has put their stores.

Having worked retail, I can say that sales is all about trying to close the sale. Commission really ratchets up the need to close. Bonuses do give a reason to at least try to close or to add on. Yet since the base salary remains the same, there is not a live or die attitude for the close.

Bonuses also help in keeping a workforce motivated. Otherwise you end up with drones like those at the QwikiMart.

i think we already pay enough for our apple goods and services. that said i agree completely that apple retail is obviously not a good place to work. my feeling is apple preys (for lack of a better term) on apple fanatics, who just love apple and are happy to just be a part of it. actually that reminds me of another company called disney, who's certainly not known for their employee friendliness.

guess the bottom line is, if the employees have a case about the bonus issues, then file a class action lawsuit and get what you deserve.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by mrsebastian
i think we already pay enough for our apple goods and services. that said i agree completely that apple retail is obviously not a good place to work. my feeling is apple preys (for lack of a better term) on apple fanatics, who just love apple and are happy to just be a part of it. actually that reminds me of another company called disney, who's certainly not known for their employee friendliness.

guess the bottom line is, if the employees have a case about the bonus issues, then file a class action lawsuit and get what you deserve.

My comments were more about commission shops and peoples feelings that they would prefer not to feel that pressure when shopping.

You know what I find funny is that people will get up in arms over what workers are paid by Walmart and others in China; but they don't think for a moment about the lack of living wages for the people who serve them in the USA.

Apple is not the only offender of not paying their employees what they are truly worth. Many retail jobs are like that. With a $12 hour wage, that means a full-time worker gets about $25,000 a year. That is before taxes and health insurance. Try living on that as a single person in the DC area. And then we see why we complain that we don't get the right help when we go shopping at various stores.

[mdriftmeyer]

Originally posted by Stella
From what I've heard, Apple is an awful employer, with this example and others:

There is also the case where Apple state in employees contracts that any software they write *IN THEIR OWN TIME* belongs to Apple...

There have been a few recent examples of Apple employees having to finish developing their shareware apps because of this.

Apple absolutely suck as an employer, some one should stand up to Apple and get them sorted out.

Unless the policy has changed from ON YOUR OWN TIME to this I call BS on this heresay.

Apple is not an awful employer. They weren't as good as NeXT but unless you've worked at both you can't understand my measurements.

Apple SQA was not thrilled with NeXT SQA who demanded much more skill levels, on all fronts, in order to be in SQA.

Whether that resulted in the newbie learning Cocoa or not --something an overwhelming majority in NeXT SQA learned in order to move up--is unknown.

Apple is no different with regards to Middle Management Mental Midgets than any other company. When a company scales beyond the level that everyone knows everyone on a first name basis you better get used to the fact that lower quality personnel do slip in and usually it is at Middle Management.

Another angle is that with such individuals the Upper Management can use Middle Management as a punching bag to determine if and where it is necessary to improve personnel.

Most Middle Management get too power envious and try to block more skilled talent from moving up by becoming gateways of information exchange between their superiors and their inferiors, as viewed on the hierarchy depth chart.

The result is tech turnover.

If this didn't happen and everyone was living in la-la land we wouldn't see so many new startups and innovation would come from a select group of pre-existing companies.

Expect change often and innovation thrives.

Introduce yourself to executives and upper management around the coffee bars and watch how you become the envy of your immediate Manager who is a yes person too afraid to do what you just did.

Very few companies operate on a complete two-way open communication. NeXT did and it worked about half the time. Apple still isn't where it wants to be from what it planned back in 1997.

Most highly skilled engineers do not want to become managers but act as if they understand people better than most managers. One of the reasons Steve Jobs is so successful is he knows his own talents and limitations.

Most people have place a much higher value on their talents than Reality shows.

If they didn't you wouldn't see so many people seeking counselors to let out their fears of inadequacies.

Grow up folks you're in freaking Retail. Whether you sell Cosmetics or Computers it is still Retail.

[Chip NoVaMac]

[i] Grow up folks you're in freaking Retail. Whether you sell Cosmetics or Computers it is still Retail. [/B]

You make Retail sound like we that serve the public do not deserve respect (both from customers and employers), what is promised by our employers, and decent wages.

Having worked in shops that low-ball wages, and those that feel living wages are important; you get what you pay for. I am not sure about yourself, but I generally can tell when i shop at a place that is fairly compensating their employees.

[tibor]

Originally posted by arn
I don't claim to know the law... so I can't really comment.... but I'm just pointing out it's not unique to Apple.

arn

/. just had a piece on this. Note that some employer contracts are actually MORE restrictive. My favorite was the Canadian company that claimed rights to anything you did in your spare time, even if it wasn't related.

See:
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/06/2329209

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by tibor
/. just had a piece on this. Note that some employer contracts are actually MORE restrictive. My favorite was the Canadian company that claimed rights to anything you did in your spare time, even if it wasn't related.

See:
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/06/2329209

In the US the courts have been mixed. In my case (never to court) MicroCenter tried to limit you r employment within the same county and and adjoining counties at the time . Courts in other cases found that to a restriction of trade and employment.

[rdowns]

Originally posted by Applespider
I'd much rather have a salesperson not working on commission helping me. Otherwise how do I know that he's not trying to sell me something I don't need, just to help out his bonus? (in the UK, many electrical salesstaff get a bonus for the number of extended warranties they can sell)

Non-commissioned salespeople get you unknowledgable folks like you find at Best Buy and Circuit City. Good non-commissioned salespeople end up leaving to make a livable wage elsewhere.

As far as I'm concerned, the whole world should work on commission, especially our elected officials. Do a good job, make more. Be a slacker, make less and lose your job.

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by rdowns
As far as I'm concerned, the whole world should work on commission, especially our elected officials. Do a good job, make more. Be a slacker, make less and lose your job.

Ideally, I'd say that money should in no way be a motivating factor, either for sales people, or, and especially not, for elected officials. The best sales people that I've ever dealt with don't try to sell. They try to help, to educate, etc. Then, once I'm smart enough to know what I want, I can buy whatever that is.

Now, if I what I wanted/needed was a $10 adaptor to make my old whatsit work, but I was trying to decide between that and a $250 new top-of-the-line whatsit, if a sales person is working on commision, which will he try to talk me into? Probably the more expensive thing that I don't need. That's not the kind of sales person that I want to have...

Also, saying an elected official should work on commision is about the same as saying that they should make policy decisions based on poll results. No. History is the best judge of when an official has done a good job. Frequently the best officials are poorly regarded when they are in office...

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by rdowns
Non-commissioned salespeople get you unknowledgable folks like you find at Best Buy and Circuit City. Good non-commissioned salespeople end up leaving to make a livable wage elsewhere.

As far as I'm concerned, the whole world should work on commission, especially our elected officials. Do a good job, make more. Be a slacker, make less and lose your job.

I will speak only from the DC area. How many people under 35 do you see working the floors of Best Buy? This was brought up by a friend that is 55 years old. His local best Buy was looking for sales staff during the Holidays.

He has Photo, Video, and Audio experience. He did an early retirement. He was looking only for seasonal employment (just what Best Buy was looking for). He knows computers so the cash register would not have been a problem. He was a White House Photographer/Videographer up till the last 1 1/2 years. Sure he could have aided in WMD, or helping Bin Laden. Yet how serious can we take that from someone just a year and half ago passed White House security?

Retail workers are looked down upon by many. Having worked in the Northern Virginia area for a number of years, i will say that we are looked upon as servants by [/b]SOME.

Just because they could not manage their time better we are asked to allow them to the head of the line. Just becuase they bought something that was $500 in the last 12months, they should be considered [b]ABOVE those that have spent $10,000 in the last 12 months.

Despite these few, there are exceptions. The person that patiently waited thru 3 warranty repairs for the same thing. the person that came in thinking that they needed to spend 4 time's what they did to get the results they wanted, and them bringing in their friends or relatives. Or even more the couple that comes in to share that their purchase (one of your smallest), met all their expectations and they just simply wanted to share with you the joy of their moment.

These are just some of the reason I choose to work retail. I know that I will never get rich. But as long as the company i work for allows me a living wage and job satisfaction, I will stay with them. there are more important things than money. Don't get me wrong, i will not work for free. Yet they pay and reward me well for what i provide to the family owned business.

(For full disclosure: I no longer work on the Retail floor in a full-time capacity. I work in their advertising and marketing department. I now primarily provide them with the printed and radio ads. They do ask me to work the retail floor when possible to better understand the needs of our customers. Some of what i have stated is from 20+ years in t\he Retail environment).

It is my personal observation that many that interact with Retail employees never have worked in the service industry. Otherwise they would understand when we say that the {i]printed{/i] policy does not allow for that. To rant and rave at a restaurant server or retail worker does not do anything. We are [i]required[/in] in most instances to state corporate policy. whether we agree e with it or not. Politely ask for a store/restaurant manager will go a long way in getting you policy point across.

Not every business is not to screw you. there are many that support the idea that the positive word is much more important then any advertising that the company will do. Studies have shown that a negative reaction will result in a 10 fold increase of negative impact.

On the flip side there is only a 2x or 3x increase from positive comment. Lucky for me my company realizes the benefit of the positive verse the negative. Maybe that is why many of us earn a living wage.

I say all of this since some of you out there consider us lower than slime.

My point being is that if you raise the wages you will see an increase in the level of customer service. In some cases it may require an increase in what you pay.

You pay cheap, you get cheap is my opinion.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by Snowy_River
Ideally, I'd say that money should in no way be a motivating factor, either for sales people, or, and especially not, for elected officials. The best sales people that I've ever dealt with don't try to sell. They try to help, to educate, etc. Then, once I'm smart enough to know what I want, I can buy whatever that is.

Now, if I what I wanted/needed was a $10 adaptor to make my old whatsit work, but I was trying to decide between that and a $250 new top-of-the-line whatsit, if a sales person is working on commision, which will he try to talk me into? Probably the more expensive thing that I don't need. That's not the kind of sales person that I want to have...

Also, saying an elected official should work on commision is about the same as saying that they should make policy decisions based on poll results. No. History is the best judge of when an official has done a good job. Frequently the best officials are poorly regarded when they are in office...

In reference to salespeople. They probably were not on commission. And since you knew what you wanted you were better off. But you can't say that you were never pressured, or bought from pressure something that you didn't want. If you haven't you are better then most of the population.

[tdhurst]

If you don't like the wage, don't work for apple. Last time I checked, a bonus was unpromised, unearned (kinda) reward that is given without any guarantee. To me, it constitutes free money, why should I expect anything more than the hourly wage and computer discount I was promised when I was hired?

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
In reference to salespeople. They probably were not on commission. And since you knew what you wanted you were better off. But you can't say that you were never pressured, or bought from pressure something that you didn't want. If you haven't you are better then most of the population.

That was my point. The sales people weren't on commision.

At the opposite extreme, I once faced the classic used car salesman. He tried everyway to Sunday to get me to buy the car. He kept coming down on the price. He told me he could make me a special deal. But I insisted that I would only buy a car once I had walked away and thought about it. When I left, he called after me in a mildly threatening tone "the deal is only good to the end of the day! After that, forget it!"

Now that's high pressure sales. I can't stand it.

(It really was a pretty good deal on the car. Perhaps I should have taken it, but I couldn't stomach the idea of buying from that guy after that...)

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac

I say all of this since some of you out there consider us lower than slime.

For what it's worth, I don't know anyone who considers sales people slime...

My point being is that if you raise the wages you will see an increase in the level of customer service. In some cases it may require an increase in what you pay.

You pay cheap, you get cheap is my opinion.

I couldn't agree more. The best sales people are the ones who are there because they love and believe in the product, not the sale. Give them enough money to live on and they'll bend over backward for you...

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by appleretailguy
If you don't like the wage, don't work for apple. Last time I checked, a bonus was unpromised, unearned (kinda) reward that is given without any guarantee. To me, it constitutes free money, why should I expect anything more than the hourly wage and computer discount I was promised when I was hired?

In some courts the verbal promise of a bonus is enough. In some other courts a posting on the bulletin board is enough.

I am not sure about the discounts. Unless someone tells me otherwise I can't see the discounts being any lower then the Government or EDU discounts.

I can only assume from your comments that you have never worked long-term in the service industry. This goes beyond Apple. They are only the tip of the iceberg.

Though I have no hard facts to back this up at this time, I would venture to guess only less than 20% of the Retail workers earn what would be a "living wage" (a wage that would allow a single individual to live on their own with out support of others).

There is a difference in living with others to support a lifestyle, and living with others just to live.

If an employer states that performing to sustain goals would give a bonus - then that employer should give that bonus period. Maybe no different in your company, if you were able to curtain overtime cost by 25% to be promised a $100 bonus.

From what i got from your post since they are retail workers, they should accept what they get. I would be just as upset if you worked for Apple SW Development, or EDU markets.

What ticks me of is how many view Retail workers are viewed.

In the DC area (again), some retail workers are viewed just above "slaves' in my mind. Just in my few short months here I have yet to see a post about the Apple Retail Store that was positive (other than they are opening a store in your area). To be honest maybe I missed the kudos to a particular store, or an employee that went that extra mile.

Everyone wants service but is not willing to pay for it. I look at some forums that complain that Dell has moved their tech support off-shore. These same people will complain that Dell stock went down by 1/2 point be cause they couldn't contain their costs. Same way they want to order from the internet. Same way people want to order from the internet and not pay any taxes. These same people will complain that the police weren't there to prevent the break-in to their home or car. Or that the trash has not been collected when it was supposed to, or that the pot-hole was not fixed and they had a $200 repair job?

WAKE UP PEOPLE! THERE ARE ONLY SO MANY DOLLARS TO GO AROUND!

[numediaman]

You pay cheap, you get cheap in my opinion.

I agree, as well.

Americans are so hooked on paying cheaper and cheaper. Don't we realize that is driving jobs out of the country, and eliminating real consumer choice?

I would rather pay a few bucks more for better service, and better quality. The price is only one of the issues I consider. Otherwise, why would I buy from Apple? -- they're never the cheapest, and that's OK.

(But I will add, the fact that Apple is never the cheapest is one of the reasons it bothers me that quality control seems to be declining for both Apple hardware and software.)

EDIT: By the way, Chip NoVaMac, nice post.

[wdlove]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
In reference to salespeople. They probably were not on commission. And since you knew what you wanted you were better off. But you can't say that you were never pressured, or bought from pressure something that you didn't want. If you haven't you are better then most of the population.

I had thought that employees at Apple received a commission. So I made sure that I used the same person. He told me that he appreciated the thought. Wish that we did receive a commission. He said, None of our employees get a commission."

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by Snowy_River
That was my point. The sales people weren't on commision.

At the opposite extreme, I once faced the classic used car salesman. He tried everyway to Sunday to get me to buy the car. He kept coming down on the price. He told me he could make me a special deal. But I insisted that I would only buy a car once I had walked away and thought about it. When I left, he called after me in a mildly threatening tone "the deal is only good to the end of the day! After that, forget it!"

Now that's high pressure sales. I can't stand it.

(It really was a pretty good deal on the car. Perhaps I should have taken it, but I couldn't stomach the idea of buying from that guy after that...)

Fortunately some car dealerships have realized that that. My other half a week ago went to a Buick dealership to look at at a car. He told the rep that he was there only to look. the rep respected that. He came back a couple days later armed with the Edmund's dealer pricing. He accepted that the dealer "invoice' did not reflect the dealers final cost. His rep also accepted that he did his homework and took the deal from "dealer invoice". Could he have gotten better, maybe ; but at what cost. He was treated with respect and he got a deal that he could live with, and so did the dealer.

It gets down to the Retailer i work for, "treat everyone fairly".

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by numediaman


EDIT: By the way, Chip NoVaMac, nice post.



Well thanks, but having spent most of my 45 years on this earth as a {i]Retail[/i] employee, I have seen a lot. Particularly in the Northern Virginia area.

I have always felt that everyone should work in a Retail position for two years. maybe then the class system that is developing in this nation will end. Believe it or not we are becoming a nation of the "haves' and Have-nots". And not to try to inject politics into this, the Administrations efforts to redefine overtime and it's efforts to redefine immigration are setting the workforce back to the before the industrial revolution.

Sorry for the political rant. But the Administration is stating 2million+ jobs by the end of the year. But what sort of jobs are these? Are they the basis of the immigration changes that the Administration proposes?

I look at a number of sites that complain constantly[/i[] about being shuttled to overseas support sites. Where English is far "far distant" language.
Keep in mind my comments are not some Xenophobic rant. I my mind there are many people given the chance would like to improve their lot with the proper training. and proper wages.

Would you buy a MB from someone that got only $12 an hour and a [i]"promise" of a $1,000 bonus? Would you buy a house from someone that would get only $500 [i]AFTER[i] spending 10 hours showing you houses ands getting the contract that you wanted?

Looking to the Valentines Holiday, who would you trust, someone that is able to live close to your standard of living o someone that made half of what you earned.

In the US everyone wants something for nothing. No matter who pays for it in the end.

We want the service and support at no additional cost. I have learned through the years those come at a cost. And even given my limited budget i am willing to pay for that.

Sorry for the rant, but even with your positive comments, it struck a nerve.

[clonenode]

Apple retail employees DO NOT work on commission. It fosters an atmosphere of cooperation (not competiton) between the sales people. They attempt to find the right solution for each customer (honestly), working off of eachothers strenghts when needed to answer customer questions. Apple truley wants peolpe to walk away happy... not feeling "sold" on something they didn't need.

The sales goal bonuses are given to everyone in the store, regardless of individual performance.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by clonenode
Apple retail employees DO NOT work on commission. It fosters an atmosphere of cooperation (not competiton) between the sales people. They attempt to find the right solution for each customer (honestly), working off of eachothers strenghts when needed to answer customer questions. Apple truley wants peolpe to walk away happy... not feeling "sold" on something they didn't need.

The sales goal bonuses are given to everyone in the store, regardless of individual performance.

Same atmosphere that worked under when I was with Micro Center. The other idea there was that not every customer was the "right" person for that customer. But withe compensation package at the time (early 90's), we were able to still pull a very livable wage (35k+). And during the years that I worked there there wasn't a store n the DC area that could match our level of expertise or service.

We were grateful for the job, but also grateful for being treated with dignity and respect. We worked on a "group' commission. It was the thought that not very customer was a match for the rep. So we were able to refer customers to those that might be better be able to help that customers.

Did we try to close every customer, of course. But we were also taught to respect the word "no". Why scare a customer off for life, as opposed to a customer that would remember that you didn't pressure them?

Keep in mind that I left almost 6 years ago, if not more. So I can not comment on heir current mode of operation.

[Fukui]

Originally posted by Stella
There is also the case where Apple state in employees contracts that any software they write *IN THEIR OWN TIME* belongs to Apple...

Uh, thats VERY normal.

If I have an employee working for me designing crash-resistant car-frames (utilizing my companies' intellectual property, patents, facilities), and he goes off on his own and designs a car-frame or something engineering related (hoping he could licence it or sell it on his own) I would confiscate his @ss in an instant. He could be using MY COMPANIES' tech in his own products, then selling it to potential competitors/using my companies' resources....and its like...don't I already pay you? Shouldn't you be thinking about how help my company? Not help yourself? It sounds selfish, but imagine an MS employee that develops a webserver that outperforms IIS (yea yea not that hard ;)) and used secret implementation details from MS...he'd deserve whatever came to him.

Thats basically a betrayal by the employee.

[Fukui]

Originally posted by numediaman
I agree, as well.

Americans are so hooked on paying cheaper and cheaper. Don't we realize that is driving jobs out of the country, and eliminating real consumer choice?

Exactly. I was shocked when I came back here after going back to Jp. My GOD! It seems like everything here is either to cheap to function properly or just plain brocken. Employees are totaly unproffesional, lack information to make decisions, don't know operate thier equipment/dont know the rules etc...

I'm sad that now I am used to gas-pumps failing, auto-tellers not taking cards in one machine, taking it in the one next-to it, teachers forgetting thier papers, employees needing to "consult the manual" because they don't remember....whatever...I guess random equipment failure is par for the course.

[tny]

Originally posted by titaniumducky
Seriously? You wrote iTunes!? I think you're joking, but someone had to write it.

I believe iTunes was originally a third party application that Apple bought and developed further. (I can't recall the name of the original app or the developer, but someone else can probably fill in those details.)

[Les Kern]

Originally posted by Stella
I cannot see how this can stand up in Law... maybe its just US law.

It can, and it is. Contractual agreements can say most anything related to the particular position. I've always hated the blurb about "firing for no reason" and "your associations and contacts with individuals of other similar companies". Fact is, you don't have to sign a contract.
I've seen my reps shuffled around and even let go, even though they more than fullfilled what is expected of them. Would I work for Apple? Never, but it is compelling. Would I work for Wal-Mart? I'd rather get a tumor in my head the size of an eMac than work for that Nazi-like chain. "Arbeit Macht Frei, dude!"
Welcome to the world of big business.

[Les Kern]

Originally posted by tny
I believe iTunes was originally a third party application that Apple bought and developed further. (I can't recall the name of the original app or the developer, but someone else can probably fill in those details.)

I thought Apple wrote iTunes, but they used some company for the visual effects engine?

[amnesiac1984]

Originally posted by Les Kern
I thought Apple wrote iTunes, but they used some company for the visual effects engine?

iTunes was originally SoundJam MP, like Winamp in the early days, it was written by cassidy and greene, and then apple bought soundjam and some employees of C & G and turned it into itunes.

I think C & G closed its doors soon after because every product they ever made was integrated into Mac OS within a Year.

[mdriftmeyer]

Originally posted by Fukui
Uh, thats VERY normal.

If I have an employee working for me designing crash-resistant car-frames (utilizing my companies' intellectual property, patents, facilities), and he goes off on his own and designs a car-frame or something engineering related (hoping he could licence it or sell it on his own) I would confiscate his @ss in an instant. He could be using MY COMPANIES' tech in his own products, then selling it to potential competitors/using my companies' resources....and its like...don't I already pay you? Shouldn't you be thinking about how help my company? Not help yourself? It sounds selfish, but imagine an MS employee that develops a webserver that outperforms IIS (yea yea not that hard ;)) and used secret implementation details from MS...he'd deserve whatever came to him.

Thats basically a betrayal by the employee.

The dilemma and pointed confusion has nothing to do with the following statement:


There is also the case where Apple state in employees contracts that any software they write *IN THEIR OWN TIME* belongs to Apple..

There are a few words that should be capped and aren't in this statement.

ANY SOFTWARE THEY WRITE *IN THEIR OWN TIME* belongs to Apple.

The NDA and non-compete agreement I signed @NeXT and @Apple was

ANY SOFTWARE YOU WRITE ON YOUR OWN TIME that directly competes within NeXT/Apple's markets belongs to NeXT/Apple while you are employed by NeXT/Apple.

Example:

ReportMill.com.

Jeff Martin whom I worked with at NeXT wrote their once Cocoa Reporting Tool, now Java based, along with another NeXT engineer, on the side.

Before they attempted any code they got a legal write off from Avie and Co. who determined this project/product was not an area of business NeXT was doing--even though WebObjects 3.x was out. NeXT left reporting to be done by third parties.

Once the two engineers left Apple during the merger and formed ReportMill Avie addressed them about this 'tool' he thought was Apple property. They pulled out the legal documents to the contrary and since then Apple licenses ReportMill's software.

If you think ahead you don't get burned.

If you expect to sell products you write while working @Apple it stands to reason you get a legal contract allowing this before you take a job @Apple or any other company, for that matter.

[humantech]

Hey all- my 2 cents
Having worked extensively and for an extended period in retail ( in sales, support and management for several different national chains), I can honestly say Apples stores seem to be geared about right in their compensation. folks who complain that they "cant make a living there" need to
a) Find a better job within the Apple company- for example, acquire skills other than sales related and turn them into a promotion-
b) Find a different job with a smaller, non corporate company
c) Open their own business

Folks who think the Apple stores "owe" them anything more are completely setting themselves up for dissapointement. $8-$12 + performance bonus is about right for most national retail chains. Think of it this way. You CHOOSE where you work and under what conditions you accept a job. It svery easy to say "Apple is oppressing me by not respecting me and paying me what I'm worth"- guess what? If you're truly worth it, stop complaining and talk to the boss. If they cant give you what you require, LEAVE. Go find a job that can.
In one of my management roles I had about 25 people I was directly responsible for - I encouraged them to job hunt weekly ( Even paid them two hours a week to do so) so they could go out and research their options- it also gave me a knowledge of what the competition was paying- Guess what? Without some work and skills development by the person looking, most jobs paid ABOUT the same as what they were making with me. There was always some manner of trade off.
After a while, I got tired of corporate mentality , quit my job and started my own business ( Apple specialist reseller, warranty center, consultant, training center) - that was 4 years ago - The hard work is really starting to pay off. I have gone through loads of stress, money problems and LONG hours. But y'know what? Its very worth it to have the piece of mind that I have some control in my life that I used to give away to my employers-
My advice? Stop griping. It could be worse- If you dont have the spirit to go do yoor own thing, count your blessings and work on improving yourself- Long term, when you complain about wages in an unskilled job environment ( lets face it- retail sales is unskilled for those who arent commision professional salespeople), then eventually you will be replaced by someone who doesnt complain so much-

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by Fukui
Uh, thats VERY normal.

If I have an employee working for me designing crash-resistant car-frames (utilizing my companies' intellectual property, patents, facilities), and he goes off on his own and designs a car-frame or something engineering related (hoping he could licence it or sell it on his own) I would confiscate his @ss in an instant. He could be using MY COMPANIES' tech in his own products, then selling it to potential competitors/using my companies' resources....and its like...don't I already pay you? Shouldn't you be thinking about how help my company? Not help yourself? It sounds selfish, but imagine an MS employee that develops a webserver that outperforms IIS (yea yea not that hard ) and used secret implementation details from MS...he'd deserve whatever came to him.

Thats basically a betrayal by the employee.


But should it not be a two way street? In many companies that employee would not be "properly" rewarded. If companies want their employees to develop assets for the company, then the company needs to stop using the employee as a "tool" to prop up the stock of the company.

Many years ago a company that announced layoffs was rewarded in the stock market by a drop in their stocks value. Today it is rewarded by a raise in the stocks value. Years ago the employee was looked upon as an asset like the machines that produced the product. Today a company would rather keep the machines as opposed to the employee.

Respect starts at the top.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by humantech
Hey all- my 2 cents
Having worked extensively and for an extended period in retail ( in sales, support and management for several different national chains), I can honestly say Apples stores seem to be geared about right in their compensation. folks who complain that they "cant make a living there" need to
a) Find a better job within the Apple company- for example, acquire skills other than sales related and turn them into a promotion-
b) Find a different job with a smaller, non corporate company
c) Open their own business

Folks who think the Apple stores "owe" them anything more are completely setting themselves up for dissapointement. $8-$12 + performance bonus is about right for most national retail chains. Think of it this way. You CHOOSE where you work and under what conditions you accept a job. It svery easy to say "Apple is oppressing me by not respecting me and paying me what I'm worth"- guess what? If you're truly worth it, stop complaining and talk to the boss. If they cant give you what you require, LEAVE. Go find a job that can.
In one of my management roles I had about 25 people I was directly responsible for - I encouraged them to job hunt weekly ( Even paid them two hours a week to do so) so they could go out and research their options- it also gave me a knowledge of what the competition was paying- Guess what? Without some work and skills development by the person looking, most jobs paid ABOUT the same as what they were making with me. There was always some manner of trade off.
After a while, I got tired of corporate mentality , quit my job and started my own business ( Apple specialist reseller, warranty center, consultant, training center) - that was 4 years ago - The hard work is really starting to pay off. I have gone through loads of stress, money problems and LONG hours. But y'know what? Its very worth it to have the piece of mind that I have some control in my life that I used to give away to my employers-
My advice? Stop griping. It could be worse- If you dont have the spirit to go do yoor own thing, count your blessings and work on improving yourself- Long term, when you complain about wages in an unskilled job environment ( lets face it- retail sales is unskilled for those who arent commision professional salespeople), then eventually you will be replaced by someone who doesnt complain so much-

Congrats on your success after 4 years.

But to use a phrase that my parents used, "If everyone was jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you?".

Whether it is social/economic/lack of ambition, should people be treated as second class? that is the impression that get from some posts about Retail workers. Just what is wrong with providing an employee with a living wage? Would not a living wage give a boost to the overall economy? Increased building of affordable housing, sales of intro level cars, and the such would be a by product of living wages. Or is it some want to feel superior to those that are less than them?

You mention choice. Is there really a choice? Lets face it not everyone is college material. Not everyone is management material for Retail. Should not these people be able to take part in the American Dream? Keep in mind the current Administration and Congress are looking to limit overtime pay, and has not said word one about increasing the minimum wage (not to turn this discussion political).

Lets face it this country is becoming one of the haves and have nots. There is overcrowding in affordable housing since few can afford to live on their own. this will lead to "new ghettos".

Look at the Pepsi/iTunes promo. What about those that are earning $7 to $12 an hour? Can they afford the internet access? Can they afford an iPod or similar device? Let alone a computer to allow for study on the internet at home?

Of course there are those that will be left behind. But far less then what we currently have with a positive change in the attitudes towards those that serve us everyday. those that we take for granted. otherwise why not just close very "brick&mortar" shop and do our shopping on the internet? Why not? Because consumers want that human interaction.

In the case of Apple they needed to make clear what was needed to obtain the bonus. And to live up to that promise.

In Tysons Corner I am surprised by the level of customer service that I have received despite what appears to below decent wages at the Apple Store.

In the end employees are an asset. Just like inventory or machinery. If you ignore inventory or machinery it will fail on you. The same way for employees. But in many cases employees are looked upon as paper and pens in a company. Something easily replace. Yet we want to complain that we did not get good service in a retail store.

You can't have it both ways.

[Fukui]

Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
Jeff Martin whom I worked with at NeXT wrote their once Cocoa Reporting Tool, now Java based, along with another NeXT engineer, on the side.

Before they attempted any code they got a legal write off from Avie and Co. who determined this project/product was not an area of business NeXT was doing--even though WebObjects 3.x was out. NeXT left reporting to be done by third parties.

Once the two engineers left Apple during the merger and formed ReportMill Avie addressed them about this 'tool' he thought was Apple property. They pulled out the legal documents to the contrary and since then Apple licenses ReportMill's software.

If you think ahead you don't get burned
Exactly, I totaly agree.
If you let the employer know what you are doing, I think thats much better, and if they give you the document that allows you to do things on you own time, thats great. Thats the smart way to do things.

[Spock]

Originally posted by bousozoku
I take it that you haven't met Spock and his hamster-powered PowerBook. :D

Doctor Q:



I am sorry You don't have a Hamster-Powered Powerbook G6 running OS 11

[hulugu]

Originally posted by Stella
From what I've heard, Apple is an awful employer, with this example and others:

There is also the case where Apple state in employees contracts that any software they write *IN THEIR OWN TIME* belongs to Apple...

There have been a few recent examples of Apple employees having to finish developing their shareware apps because of this.

Apple absolutely suck as an employer, some one should stand up to Apple and get them sorted out.

I believe that most, if not all, software companies have this written into their employee contracts. I know MS, Sun, and IBM have similar contracts.
If you are a developer and work for a software company, you have to be very careful that what you do on your own time does not reflect or use derivative works you did for the company, this is difficult if not impossible to do, therefore an employee should request a special program for their personal work. This was mentioned on Slashdot just a few days ago.

[carbonmotion]

ironically personality wise, you can't get a guy nicer then bill gates... and probably wont get a egomaniac worse then steve jobs... too bad gates produces crap and jobs produces good shi t ... I really admire gates for leave only 5 million to each of children and promising to give the rest away to world charities via the bill and malinda fund. and they dont grub media attention too, they perfer to stay hidden...thats true philathroy right there. Jobs on the other had is nice and charming when he wants to be but in reality can be a brutal monster of a person who wants his way or the highway... I mean just look at the fact that he refuses to give finacial aid to his illigitament daughter and i dont see him pledging to give his 2 billion away in the steve fund... When I think of apple, I think of Woz not jobs... but then im a sociology major, so you have to adjust for my biases With that said, I think its rediculous that people are complainning about 12 dollars an hour for a non-degree required job located in a shopping mall (in many states)... I mean seriously, this is a capitalist economy, what did you expect? You should feel fortunate that you get paid that much for that cushy of a job (i used to work at the apple store, its cushy as hell) ...like youi practically do nothing except tell people how great macs are, i mean i'd do that for free! When I was in highschool I got paid 6.50 for hauling trash bins around in korgers... that was rough ****ty work not even comparable to the apple store.

[iJon]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
ironically personality wise, you can't get a guy nicer then bill gates... and probably wont get a egomaniac worse then steve jobs... too bad gates produces crap and jobs produces good shi t ... I really admire gates for leave only 5 million to each of children and promising to give the rest away to world charities via the bill and malinda fund. and they dont grub media attention too, they perfer to stay hidden...thats true philathroy right there.
man, thats nice and all, but if i was bill gates children i would be pissed as hell if i only got 5 mil, i would try to appeal against that.

iJon

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by iJon
man, thats nice and all, but if i was bill gates children i would be pissed as hell if i only got 5 mil, i would try to appeal against that.

iJon He was trying to prevent a repeat of the Billionaire Boys Club...

[carbonmotion]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
He was trying to prevent a repeat of the Billionaire Boys Club...
exactly, he wants his kids to become real a man and a real woman while giving them some cushion from his success. 5 mil is a great starting point for anybody its enough to make a break a person... if he have them 500 mil instead, that would destroy them, completely as human beings... they'd have a silver spoon in their mouth for the rest of their lives... something the gates want to avoid...thats good liberal parenting right there.

[Day Tripper]

Apple retail workers may be getting the same kind of treatment as other branches of Apple. I have been trying to follow what has been going on with the lawsuits the resellers in California brought against Apple. These first were filed in December of 2002 and the first court date has been set for February 24th of this year. That is if Apple doesn't file for another continuance. Signed contracts have allegedly been violated repeatedly--promises made directly from Steve Jobs to groups of resellers broken--reseller's customers contacted directly by Apple and told outright lies regarding their resellers, etc.

There is a pattern of behavior developing here. Consumers are being manipulated into paying top $$ for products only to be told that we have to pay some more to insure that these products will be protected--i.e. Applecare. It is tantamount to buying the extended care warranty on your new car. Car dealers stopped getting away with that years ago. Now it is an accepted practice with Apple products.

Apple changes its policies regarding defective products--iPod batteries, iBook logic boards--ONLY in response to class action threats.

Of course Apple can treat its own employees anyway they choose. They don't have to work there, right? And Apple resellers don't have to sell Macs. And we don't have to buy Apple products. See the pattern here?

[R001]

If Apple retail sucks so bad, why are there 17,000 applicants for 1000 retail positions eh?

[dieselg4]

Originally posted by laserbeahm
Whether the employees were getting paid $500 or $1,000, that is a crummy bonus for making $500,000 in sales. .1% really isn't good at all. As other people have said, I'm sure that kind of thing is going on a lot of other places.

If he/she wants to make money on percentage of sales he/she should go into realestate or some other industry. I fail to understand why a sales job at apple should be THAT much more profitable than a sales job at other similar places. Does the guy at WalMart in the electronics section get a percentage bonus of sales? How about the sales guy at the American Eagle store? I don't understand whining about commisons when many sales psotions don't have these perks. $10-$12 per hour isn't alot, but its more than alot of retail salesman make. Since they can't give tech support anyway, it doesn't require special technical knowledge.

If I have a pHD in architecture and I take a job as a draftsman, I'm only entitled to a draftsman's salary.

[dieselg4]

Originally posted by iJon
man, thats nice and all, but if i was bill gates children i would be pissed as hell if i only got 5 mil, i would try to appeal against that.

iJon

Why is birth a right to money that isn't earned? Isn't it money that bill made? As far as I'm concerned its his to do with as he pleases, and if he spends it all on charities before he dies so much the better.<br>
At least if they know they won't be getting all of it the kids won't have them killed to get the money early. I smell a Law&Order episode coming on . . .

[Doctor Q]

Originally posted by R001
If Apple retail sucks so bad, why are there 17,000 applicants for 1000 retail positions eh? Theories:

1. The complaints we're hearing about here aren't true.

2. The complaints we're hearing about here aren't common or widespread.

3. The complaints we're hearing about here aren't known to those applicants.

4. The complaints we're hearing about here are known to those applicants, but it's no different than other similar retail jobs, so it doesn't deter them.

5. The complaints we're hearing about here are known to those applicants, and there would have been thousands more applicants otherwise.

[R001]

let me shed some light

500k- 500 bucks back
1,000,000-1000 bucks
1.5- 1500

and so on

and for the holidays, there were two bonuses, 500 cpu, 500 ipod for part timers, full timers got double.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by dieselg4
If he/she wants to make money on percentage of sales he/she should go into realestate or some other industry. I fail to understand why a sales job at apple should be THAT much more profitable than a sales job at other similar places. Does the guy at WalMart in the electronics section get a percentage bonus of sales? How about the sales guy at the American Eagle store? I don't understand whining about commisons when many sales psotions don't have these perks. $10-$12 per hour isn't alot, but its more than alot of retail salesman make. Since they can't give tech support anyway, it doesn't require special technical knowledge.

If I have a pHD in architecture and I take a job as a draftsman, I'm only entitled to a draftsman's salary.

But it is a vicious cycle. In order to get into real-estate (using your example), most states require licensing which requires classes. Those classes cost money that many retail workers can scrape together perhaps. Hopefully their employer will not change their schedules at the last minute.

But once they get their license, then comes need need for a decent car (preferably a later model, not too "cheap" for image is important). then according to realtors that I have talked with, if you are "hot" seller - you might see your commissions in 3 to 6 months. Realistically look at 6 to 12 months to start making "real" money. If you are lucky you might get a draw, but in the case of the DC area as of a few years ago, you have to have another source of income.

And keep in mind not everyone is suited for that type of sales. And because of that some here are saying that these people do not deserve a living wage. Yet we have people complain that the house on our block has "way too many people living there". We also seeing people complain about the level of help in the retails stores.

Reminds me many years ago Montgomery County wanted to buy some land in Potomac, MD to build affordable housing. Housing that teachers, firefighters, and general office workers could afford. A woman who owned a home in the Potomac area was quoted as say something along the lines of "i have to work with these people during the day, but I should have to live with them at night".

Reminder that what some of us are talking about are living wages for full-time workers. When you give living wages you generally can expect better motivated workers helping you in the stores. You can generally expect better living conditions for everyone. And you give those that have few other options (for a variety of reasons) a chance to make better their lives.

Will everyone deserve the "living wage"? Probably not. There will always be marginal workers. But a socially responsible society does not "create" marginal workers. And in the US, I would think that both on the left and right would say that we are a socially responsible society. But what both sides have forgotten is that charity (by this I mean this definition: Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity) begins at home.

Remember but for the grace of God, go I.

[dieselg4]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
But it is a vicious cycle. In order to get into real-estate (using your example), most states require licensing which requires classes. Those classes cost money that many retail workers can scrape together perhaps. Hopefully their employer will not change their schedules at the last minute.

But once they get their license, then comes need need for a decent car (preferably a later model, not too "cheap" for image is important). then according to realtors that I have talked with, if you are "hot" seller - you might see your commissions in 3 to 6 months. Realistically look at 6 to 12 months to start making "real" money. If you are lucky you might get a draw, but in the case of the DC area as of a few years ago, you have to have another source of income.

And keep in mind not everyone is suited for that type of sales. And because of that some here are saying that these people do not deserve a living wage. Yet we have people complain that the house on our block has "way too many people living there". We also seeing people complain about the level of help in the retails stores.

Reminds me many years ago Montgomery County wanted to buy some land in Potomac, MD to build affordable housing. Housing that teachers, firefighters, and general office workers could afford. A woman who owned a home in the Potomac area was quoted as say something along the lines of "i have to work with these people during the day, but I should have to live with them at night".

Reminder that what some of us are talking about are living wages for full-time workers. When you give living wages you generally can expect better motivated workers helping you in the stores. You can generally expect better living conditions for everyone. And you give those that have few other options (for a variety of reasons) a chance to make better their lives.

Will everyone deserve the "living wage"? Probably not. There will always be marginal workers. But a socially responsible society does not "create" marginal workers. And in the US, I would think that both on the left and right would say that we are a socially responsible society. But what both sides have forgotten is that charity (by this I mean this definition: Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity) begins at home.

Remember but for the grace of God, go I.

It seems that a living wage is becoming more and more a relative term. In places like DC (or DC Metro, in your instance), San Fran, Boston, etc., the costs are much higher than other places. Subsidized housing for teachers and firefighters? I didn't realize their economic situation was as dire as displaced manufacturing workers who can't find work, the disabled, the elderly, or the minimum wage earner.

But at any rate, that's off topic. Apple retail is no more grueling than selling handbags at Coach. Since Apple computers are so user freindly and intuitive, they don't (or shouldn't) require to much explanation.

Bottom line is, the cost of living in DC Metro, nor charity, is a compelling argument for Apple retail employees to make signifcantly more than other retailers, or gain significant bonuses from sales. If they were reciveing higher comissions they'd probably jsut get less per hour anyway. I have a feeling they gey on the phone at Dell isn't getting a kickback.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by dieselg4
It seems that a living wage is becoming more and more a relative term. In places like DC (or DC Metro, in your instance), San Fran, Boston, etc., the costs are much higher than other places. Subsidized housing for teachers and firefighters? I didn't realize their economic situation was as dire as displaced manufacturing workers who can't find work, the disabled, the elderly, or the minimum wage earner.

But at any rate, that's off topic. Apple retail is no more grueling than selling handbags at Coach. Since Apple computers are so user freindly and intuitive, they don't (or shouldn't) require to much explanation.

Bottom line is, the cost of living in DC Metro, nor charity, is a compelling argument for Apple retail employees to make signifcantly more than other retailers, or gain significant bonuses from sales. If they were reciveing higher comissions they'd probably jsut get less per hour anyway. I have a feeling they gey on the phone at Dell isn't getting a kickback.

Keep in mind land costs are the major part of a home purchase in the larger urban areas. The "subsidized housing" was the county buying the land to make the homes more affordable. In the DC area it is getting very hard to find decent housing to buy for under $200k.

And you are right, there are many others that need our help, but yet we are looking at deficit spending on other items of major expense that could be better spent to create a better life for everyone here in the US. As long as we reward companies for sending jobs to Mexico and China (by raising their stock prices), not much will change there.

The comments about living wages was not just limited to the Apple employees. In this thread some felt that Apple retail and other retail workers don't deserve more then the $7 to $12 an hour. Yet in other threads we see complaints that we get poor service in retail and other support areas. In many cases you get what you pay for.

The retail company I work for does provide for living wages for its workers. And that is reflected in the customer service, if our customers comments are any indication.

Some feel that retail work is way too easy to deserve much more in pay. Yet a good worker has to be "up" every minute. It takes a good person to able to answer the same questions 15 to 30 times a day. To be able to take being yelled at by a customer that feels the companies policies don't apply to them. Thankfully there are customers that come back and thank you for the good work you did getting them the right product or service.

As I said in another post here, I can generally tell when the employees are getting decent rewards for their work.

[mk_in_mke]

Just like the type of advertising Apple needs...
:mad:

(If the employees stories are true...that is to say!)

Michel

[Hugh]

Is that new, or has that been the policy for sometime now?

Didn't Andy Nicholas finish the Apple IIgs version of Shrinkit while he was working for Apple? So who owns Shrinkit? Andy or Apple? I thought it was Andy.

Was just wondering.

Hugh


Originally posted by Stella
From what I've heard, Apple is an awful employer, with this example and others:

There is also the case where Apple state in employees contracts that any software they write *IN THEIR OWN TIME* belongs to Apple...

There have been a few recent examples of Apple employees having to finish developing their shareware apps because of this.

Apple absolutely suck as an employer, some one should stand up to Apple and get them sorted out.

[Grabbag]

Apple retail employees DO NOT work on commission. It fosters an atmosphere of cooperation (not competiton) between the sales people. They attempt to find the right solution for each customer (honestly), working off of eachothers strenghts when needed to answer customer questions. Apple truley wants peolpe to walk away happy... not feeling "sold" on something they didn't need.

The sales goal bonuses are given to everyone in the store, regardless of individual performance.


Yeah, that's exactly how the U.S.S.R. became the global superpower it is today.

Seriously tho, I've been working in commisioned retail consumer technology sales for exactly a year now and I have to refute each and everything you've said. First off, competition is a good thing. It forces people to become better at what they do and who they are. Ever hear the phrase "rising to a challenge"? The rivalries on the sales floor are FREINDLY, and there's also the competition against other locations, which cause us to pull together as a team for the greater good of our store.
As far as the ability to help a customer "honestly", stores have something called a return policy now. I would never sell a customer more than they need because they WILL RETURN IT AND THAT WOULD COME OUT OF MY POCKET, never mind the fact that I, and my collegues, have ETHICS.
I know squat about cameras. When somebody comes to my with a camera question, I hand them off to somebody who knows more. I know about networking. When somebody has a networking question, that customer gets handed of to me. Do you know why? If I attempt to sell something I know zero about, how can I possibly convince them to buy it, let alone properlly qualify their needs? It's just a huge waste of time for me.
In the end, this system results in just about the same amount of money.
I honestly believe that all retail sales establishments should be commisioned. The pay structure has changed a bit since I started, and since then, they added a base hourly pay (used to be a draw program, i.e. you had to write a certain amount of sales in a period for commision to kick in) there's been an influx of unskilled salespeople who are not especially computer savvy which leads to poor sales and zero customer satisfaction. Would you want to buy a computer from someone who called a usb cable a ubs cable? Yes, it does get that bad. YOU WILL NOT GET GOOD SALESPEOPLE WITHOUT PAYING FOR THEM!Educated and skilled sales personel need to be compensated. Otherwise every retail store becomes Service Merchandise where employees are no more than order takers (I don't know if Service Merchandise was regional the the ny/nj area, but basically it was a store that had no sales staff, only catalogs which you picked items out of). Most of the people frequenting this board are knowlegable enough to get by, but the majority of the computer bying public is not tech savvy.

[krts]

This may be off the subject but do the people working at the "Genuis Bar" get paid the same as the rest of the staff or more?

The reason I ask is because I've seen guys at the "Bar" working with people for over 2-3 hours and looking a bit frazzled while the sales staff are sitting around talking about what they are doing later.

I know this because whenever I visit the Mall Of America store I usually start at the Apple Store and work my way around which takes about 2-3 hours with the addition of a shoe-mongering-fiance and then I end up back at the Apple Gap.:D