Meye RANT on American edyoucayshun

[jeremy.king]

So my wife is a teacher in IL and the state often applies pressures to sub-performing districts to drive up test scores or face some penalty (whatever that may be). So in order to do so, they often focus on subjects they know will be on the ISAT. I am sure other states have similar states have similar tests and mandates.

Unfortunately, this teaching style comes at a cost. It seems nowadays, that American's abilities to speak and spell is going to the sh!**er. I have helped my wife grade short essays and other papers from her 6th and 7th graders, and I must say it was an eye opening experience. The errors these kids are making wouldn't have allowed me to graduate....2nd grade!

Why the rant???

I'm a devoted Mac owner and fan and I visit this site often. After reading hundreds of the posts I realize how bad it’s getting. I'm not picking on anyone in particular, but it seems the spelling on this very site is especially horrendous! Granted quick typing causes some errors, but most of the errors are just unacceptable. I myself have made several grammatical and spelling errors in my posts, but I consider myself somewhat edu-ma-cated!

I understand that the community in this forum is international, but I am seeing people from the US misspelling EASY words! The best are the phoenetic spellings. I don't think I need to list them (as I don't want to single out anyone), as we all have seen them. You can almost figure out the age of some of the users of this site based on their grammar and spelling. Sometimes I will politely remind people how to use the english language, but most times I remain silent. Heck, I’m sure someone may even find an error in this post :)

I can only think that with the advent of computers and technology and teachers now "teaching to the test", we are sacrificing our abilities to communicate effectively through words.

We, as Americans, seem to be falling more and more behind other countries with respect to education and this very forum is a living example.

Thoughts?

[mactastic]

Hear hear... my wife is also a teacher, she teaches 9th grade English and 11th/12th grade theater history. The level of writing from her students is atrocious for the most part, although there are also many who are good at it. Her school is occasionally threatened with The Big Stick if they don't get their test scores up. Each year the school devotes some insane amount of time to standardized testing. All told it adds up to about 2 weeks of the school year. Because of the threats and the possible punishment teachers face, most find it easier to 'teach to the test' instead of teaching the broad concepts and working on writing skills. Since standardized tests rarely ask for anything other than a multiple choice answer, that's what kids are given instruction in. As my HS calculus teacher said when prepping us for the SAT and AP exams: "If you are doing any actual math on the multiple choice problems, you are doing it wrong and you won't have time to finish. Looking the answers over should immediately discount one or two of them, and partially solving the problem should show you which of the remaining answers is correct." That's not math, it's just learning to play a game of elimination.

My wife teaches her kids how to take standardized essay tests with the a very formulaic method that seems to work, but is terrible writing. Introduction, thesis, body paragraphs conclusion. For each paragraph, topic sentance, concrete detail, concrete detail. It's the most awful crap to read, but it is what the testers want to see because it's easy to judge compliance.

[shadowfax]

i got an 800 on my SAT II writing, a 79 (out of 80) on the PSAT writing section, and a 760 on the SAT verbal.

writing "effectively" comes naturally to me, but as for spelling errors, i am pretty lax about them online. this is a totally informal place. i don't even bother with capitals on my first letters.

I know the rules for English grammar like the back of my hand, and I can use them whenever and wherever I need to. I don't feel I need to here, and so I forego some some simple things like capitals. Personally, spelling comes very easily to me and I usually spell words correctly (sans the occasional typo). Nevertheless, I understand that many people have minor cases of dyslexia or simply don't spell well. I am more than willing to rake them over the coals in spite of this when it comes to formal writing, but in here, as long as I know what the hell they are trying to say, I don't complain.

in an environment where rigid formality is expected, you look like a fool when you don't use it. that's not the case here, again. while one might include my posts among those that contribute to the "bad image" of education that this forum portrays (as you see it), i am very educated in simple grammar and effective writing.

all this to say, be careful of your generalizations. you are certainly right that our educational standards are falling far behind, but this forum has no place being used as an example for such a backslide.

that's my 2¢.

[virividox]

when i post online i dont care much for grammar or spelling. its like texting (sms) where all you want to do is get the message across in the easiest fashion. but when it comes to essays and the like, as well as letters home or to friends (serious letters not quick emails) then i get serious. i think more schools though should start a grammar program.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by mactastic
My wife teaches her kids how to take standardized essay tests with the a very formulaic method that seems to work, but is terrible writing. Introduction, thesis, body paragraphs conclusion. For each paragraph, topic sentance, concrete detail, concrete detail. It's the most awful crap to read, but it is what the testers want to see because it's easy to judge compliance. I have a lot of trouble with this one. while I firmly agree that every essay that contains an argument needs to have some form of thesis towards the beginning, that introductions and conclusions are all but imperative in such writing, it makes me want to slap my teacher in the face when she starts spouting off bull**** about about how "your introduction should be 5-8 sentences long, each body paragraph should be 8-11 sentences, your best argument shoulc be saved for the last body paragraph..."

teaching writing should be done oxford style. students should have to write A LOT. students' writing should be actively peer-critiqued as well as teacher critiqued. rather than making a stupid, detailed rubric that puts style inside a small, dull box, students should be praised for arguments of whatever style that show to be effective. the teacher should go through writing samples with the class and point out various ways in which effective writing is accomplished, along with explanations about WHY certain parts of a sample are not very effective, some ways they could be more effective, etc.

that, of course, is a model for high school. spelling and grammar should be much more emphasized at younger ages through exercises.

the above model is how i learned, outside of class, from my father, who is a published author (and who has similar thoughts on teaching how to use language).

multiple choice is a good way to assess a student's progress in many areas of learning, but it's the worst imaginable way to teach it to them. the trouble is it gets obvious results on the multiple choice exams and it's a thousand times easier for both teacher and student.

that's how we do things in america, though, right? take the easy way out. don't have the resources now? oh well--buy now, pay later. get your standards up faster on paper by basing them on highly limited tests. lose weight fast and easily with such and such! never mind that you'll gain it all back in 2 months if you don't make real changes in your lifestyle! pfffft.....

how's my rant?

[jeremy.king]

Originally posted by virividox
when i post online i dont care much for grammar or spelling. its like texting (sms) where all you want to do is get the message across in the easiest fashion.

That was my point. Eventually this makes its way into "professional" communication. When I read some of these papers, the kids were using the word "like" as if they were speaking.

Fictional student essay.

"Whats youre name?" billy sed.

And sally was like "Sally".

I can't even count the errors made there, and the students are a lot worse than that simple example.

Curious what many feel its not important to use proper spelling and grammar when composing a forum message or email when it was entered by typing on a keyboard ? I could buy the phone argument since keying in a message on a phone is tedious, but not for keyboard input. To me -- its lazy.

IMO, if someone wants to fill the stereotype of "stupid American" tehy can, but I will, at a minumum, try to spell words correctly.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by virividox
i think more schools though should start a grammar program. we shouldn't have to teach remedial grammar in high school. students should have it forced into them relentlessly far before then. we don't need more grammar programs. we need more intense ones where they are. high school is where students should start developing their writing styles, if not before then.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by kingjr3
That was my point. Eventually this makes its way into "professional" communication.

....

Curious what many feel its not important to use proper spelling and grammar when composing a forum message or email when it was entered by typing on a keyboard ? I could buy the phone argument since keying in a message on a phone is tedious, but not for keyboard input. To me -- its lazy.

IMO, if someone wants to fill the stereotype of "stupid American" tehy can, but I will, at a minumum, try to spell words correctly. now, now, in this very message you used the acronym "IMO." clearly, you buy the argument, whether you say it aloud or not, that even on a keyboard it's acceptable to speed things up by foregoing certain formalities.

as for your domino theory, i think it's the same one that argues that seeing violence in movies has to lead to a more violent society. I don't agree. people can very easily learn to differentiate between fantasy and reality, between formal and informal. all you have to do is teach them both; the problem is that many aren't LEARNING both.

[virividox]

Originally posted by shadowfax
we shouldn't have to teach remedial grammar in high school. students should have it forced into them relentlessly far before then. we don't need more grammar programs. we need more intense ones where they are. high school is where students should start developing their writing styles, if not before then.

i wasnt clear, i meant in primary school or middle school. high school is where we did lit analysis, deconstruction of poems and prose, and all the really yucky stuff, which was fun, kinda. by the time you reach high school if you can construct a sentence properly and spell, you shoulnd't be trying to analyze literature.

and i am lazy when it comes to the keyboard!!! :D

[janey]

Originally posted by virividox
when i post online i dont care much for grammar or spelling. its like texting (sms) where all you want to do is get the message across in the easiest fashion. but when it comes to essays and the like, as well as letters home or to friends (serious letters not quick emails) then i get serious.
yeah well, sometimes the spelling gets awfully horrendous...to the point where the message they are trying to get across cannot be understood.
Maybe a lot of these reasons is because the person cant type, so in that case it would be more of a typing thing rather than grammar...I'm finding it pretty difficult to type on this dell keyboard right now and i'm pretty good at typing...mebbe its the keyboard itself.

how they teach english is ...imho...weird. I'm in 9th grade honors english and theyre teaching us active/passive voice, stuff I learned in middle school...all they do is review the same old basics again and again instead of making us use them and learn new things. somewhat annoying.

[virividox]

i have horrible online posting habits, i always forget punctuation and basic grammar rules, and spelling, but just remember that even if we make an abundance of mistakes we arent stupid or ignorant, just lazy.

i got a 790 writting and 780 lit sat ii, but that hasnt made me a better poster!!! :D

[virividox]

Originally posted by übergeek


how they teach english is ...imho...weird. I'm in 9th grade honors english and theyre teaching us active/passive voice, stuff I learned in middle school...all they do is review the same old basics again and again instead of making us use them and learn new things. somewhat annoying.

in your school do you have the AP or the International baccalaureate program. their approach to english/literature is so different. i did the IB and would do it again in a heartbeat.

[jeremy.king]

Originally posted by virividox
i got a 790 writting and 780 lit sat ii, but that hasnt made me a better poster!!! :D

Again, my point. Just because you score well on a test doesn't mean you have the skills necessary to communicate effectively through words. I'm confident you can though ;)

I've rather enjoyed the elaborate responses, and I would venture to guess that nobody that has posted to this topic would have a problem writing a business proposal or a resume. But I am guessing we (I can include myself, right) are going to become the minority in the near future based on today's teaching methods.

TOO MUCH STRESS IS PUT ON STANDARDIZED TESTS. Thats the bottom line, and I think that gauging today's kids on a test or two isn't going to be very accurate. I often feel the art of writing and power of words is going to be lost after our generation passes.

[janey]

Originally posted by virividox
in your school do you have the AP or the International baccalaureate program. their approach to english/literature is so different. i did the IB and would do it again in a heartbeat.
i'm in 9th grade, AP english (whatever) isnt till at least 10th.
my school is weird when it comes to teaching us stuff.
http://www.lausd.k12.ca.us/NHHS_Highly_Gifted_Mag/

[janey]

Originally posted by kingjr3
(snip) I've rather enjoyed the elaborate responses, and I would venture to guess that nobody that has posted to this topic would have a problem writing a business proposal or a resume. (snip) TOO MUCH STRESS IS PUT ON STANDARDIZED TESTS. Thats the bottom line, and I think that gauging today's kids on a test or two isn't going to be very accurate. I often feel the art of writing and power of words is going to be lost after our generation passes.
werd. bigtime :D I HATE standardized tests and see no point to them. i think theyre a waste of time because all the teachers do are teach the kids what they need to know, not what they should be learning. Thank god california has some decent standards that teachers have to follow. otherwise we'd just learn algebra, simple english, and get everything over and done with.
Ironically, the high school exit exam here is a joke...they make you take it in like 10th or 11th grade..its no exit exam :\

Hehe. I have a resume *giggle*. Surprisingly, you have to take a class at my HS where they teach you how to write one, and do other miscellaneous things. Hrmm...

[virividox]

Originally posted by kingjr3
Again, my point. Just because you score well on a test doesn't mean you have the skills necessary to communicate effectively through words. I'm confident you can though ;)

TOO MUCH STRESS IS PUT ON STANDARDIZED TESTS. Thats the bottom line, and I think that gauging today's kids on a test or two isn't going to be very accurate. I often feel the art of writing and power of words is going to be lost after our generation passes.

depending on my mood i can either express myself effectively or extremely poorly. but i think that happens to the best of us.

i think there should be more stress put into essays and critical thinking/comprehension, as well as how to structure proper arguments. Analogies don't really help when you're trying to defend or rebutt a point.

[coolsoldier]

Posting on a forum is a lot like leaving somebody a note on a napkin -- an informal communication. Spelling and grammar are not as important as just getting the message across quickly and easily.

That said, there's not much excuse for misspellings on a Mac forum, seeing as OS X has inline spell checking built in.

I get aggravated when I see grammatical and spelling errors in published documents (especially the newspaper), and in prepared speeches and so on, but the tone on a forum is more comparable to a conversation than an essay, and IMO informal, conversational writing is acceptable here.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by shadowfax
I have a lot of trouble with this one. while I firmly agree that every essay that contains an argument needs to have some form of thesis towards the beginning, that introductions and conclusions are all but imperative in such writing, it makes me want to slap my teacher in the face when she starts spouting off bull**** about about how "your introduction should be 5-8 sentences long, each body paragraph should be 8-11 sentences, your best argument shoulc be saved for the last body paragraph..."

teaching writing should be done oxford style. students should have to write A LOT. students' writing should be actively peer-critiqued as well as teacher critiqued. rather than making a stupid, detailed rubric that puts style inside a small, dull box, students should be praised for arguments of whatever style that show to be effective. the teacher should go through writing samples with the class and point out various ways in which effective writing is accomplished, along with explanations about WHY certain parts of a sample are not very effective, some ways they could be more effective, etc.


Believe me, she would RATHER teach this way, but if she doesn't get good test scores the school can FIRE her. Kinda makes you want to teach the formulaic writing.

[virividox]

its a shame schools are worried about scores rather than whether or not they are producing students who can grasp the intricacies of english.

[coolsoldier]

Originally posted by virividox
its a shame schools are worried about scores rather than whether or not they are producing students who can grasp the intricacies of english.

But then wouldn't students who grasp the intricacies of the english language then produce high test scores?

[jeremy.king]

Originally posted by virividox
its a shame schools are worried about scores rather than whether or not they are producing students who can grasp the intricacies of english.

I partially blame the NCLB (http://www.ed.gov/nclb/landing.jhtml?src=pb) Act for changing what is taught in our schools, and I blame technology for masking the intelligence by providing tools such as spell checkers.

It still doesn't prevent the misuse of homonyms such as their, there, and they're as well as too, to, and two.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by coolsoldier
But then wouldn't students who grasp the intricacies of the english language then produce high test scores?

Not necessarily. Taking standardized tests is a game in and of itself. In addition, it is much easier to teach to the tests than to teach the bredth and depth of material necessary to learn the intracacies of the English language. Plus if it comes down to it, the administration will much rather see you teaching the formulaic stuff. It is, in turn easier for them to avoid accountability with THEIR bosses and so on.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by virividox
in your school do you have the AP or the International baccalaureate program. their approach to english/literature is so different. i did the IB and would do it again in a heartbeat. IB is not always all that great. it's still highly dependent on the particular school. i graduated IB and i HATED the english department. my teacher was an incompetent fool whose writing was worse than several of the students'. it was ridiculous. I like IB's theoretical approach to english/literature, but it's not always implemented that way into a specific program.

[virividox]

Originally posted by shadowfax
IB is not always all that great. it's still highly dependent on the particular school. i graduated IB and i HATED the english department. my teacher was an incompetent fool whose writing was worse than several of the students'. it was ridiculous. I like IB's theoretical approach to english/literature, but it's not always implemented that way into a specific program.

yeah the teacher makes a lot of difference

but the orals, world lits, and the whole program is better than filling it blank dots and empty lines. at least you get to explore literature as literature was meant to be explored.

i loved my teacher, he rocked!!!

[Roger1]

Originally posted by kingjr3
I partially blame the NCLB (http://www.ed.gov/nclb/landing.jhtml?src=pb) Act for changing what is taught in our schools, and I blame technology for masking the intelligence by providing tools such as spell checkers.

It still doesn't prevent the misuse of homonyms such as their, there, and they're as well as too, to, and two.

You beat me to it. I was going to say NCLB.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by virividox
yeah the teacher makes a lot of difference

but the orals, world lits, and the whole program is better than filling it blank dots and empty lines. at least you get to explore literature as literature was meant to be explored.

i loved my teacher, he rocked!!! yeah, the orals were surprisingly fun. i didn't like the "literature" we examined. we read house of spirits by isabel allende or something, and i found it pretty dull compared to 100 years of solitude, which i had read on my own time. marquez is much better at "Magical Realism," neither book had a lot to gain from. i wouldn't even dare to really call it literature in the sense of Dante or Shakespeare or even Charlotte Brönte. schools avoid even reading something like "The Lord of the Rings," which has a lot more to offer in terms of style, elegance, plot-building, and dialogue than something like magical realism or the 2 plays we read for IB, "A Doll's House" and "The Visit." with magical realism, the author seems obsessed with making the strangest possible thing happen and pretend like it's absolutely normal. while this is funny, entertaining, and can stimulate some level of philosophical reflection, i really can't say the books seem truly excellent as examples of great writing or great literature. don't even get me started on the plays, either, heh. a doll's house was such a ridiculous sellout of a story as a carefully constructed feminist hell, and while The Visit was heavy on condemning vengeance, it didn't really do much to advocate the opposite of it, redemption. even IB throws you into some literature that is subpar at best, even though they approach it in a better way than other programs.

i'm just thankful that my father made me read in the summers when i was younger, and I read good stuff for the most part. sure, there was the occasional tom clancy book, but most of it was more CS Lewis fiction or Dickens or Shakespeare...

That's how you learn to write, isn't it? you read other people's writing--you read books. it's really shocking how few people actually do that, and even the ones who do seem to respond to in in mechanical, thoughtless ways. why don't students emulate the styles of the authors they read?

i don't think teachers even consider advising students to do so. they give you formulas rather than taking styles from authors (of something other than a damn grammar textbook). Ah, government education. we give education to everyone, but the cost is that everyone gets a mediocre (at best) education--unless they have parents who are willing to educate them as well, or a lot of money, heh.

[janey]

Originally posted by kingjr3
I partially blame the NCLB (http://www.ed.gov/nclb/landing.jhtml?src=pb) Act for changing what is taught in our schools, and I blame technology for masking the intelligence by providing tools such as spell checkers.

It still doesn't prevent the misuse of homonyms such as their, there, and they're as well as too, to, and two.
ahhhh ahhhh die!!!
thanks to that stupid act gifted schools and programs are getting less funding, while poorly performing schools get millions :rolleyes:
grr. i dont see the freakin point of the no child left behind thing...only focuses solely on underachievers and nothing else. screw the leaders of tomorrow, we'll care more about drug dealers and others :(
sorry, whenever i talk about something bush did i get ticked off sometimes for even the weirdest reasons.

[virividox]

Originally posted by shadowfax
yeah, the orals were surprisingly fun. i didn't like the "literature" we examined. we read house of spirits by isabel allende or something, and i found it pretty dull compared to 100 years of solitude, which i had read on my own time. marquez is much better at "Magical Realism," neither book had a lot to gain from. i wouldn't even dare to really call it literature in the sense of Dante or Shakespeare or even Charlotte Brönte. schools avoid even reading something like "The Lord of the Rings," which has a lot more to offer in terms of style, elegance, plot-building, and dialogue than something like magical realism or the 2 plays we read for IB, "A Doll's House" and "The Visit." with magical realism, the author seems obsessed with making the strangest possible thing happen and pretend like it's absolutely normal. while this is funny, entertaining, and can stimulate some level of philosophical reflection, i really can't say the books seem truly excellent as examples of great writing or great literature. don't even get me started on the plays, either, heh. a doll's house was such a ridiculous sellout of a story as a carefully constructed feminist hell, and while The Visit was heavy on condemning vengeance, it didn't really do much to advocate the opposite of it, redemption. even IB throws you into some literature that is subpar at best, even though they approach it in a better way than other programs.

i'm just thankful that my father made me read in the summers when i was younger, and I read good stuff for the most part. sure, there was the occasional tom clancy book, but most of it was more CS Lewis fiction or Dickens or Shakespeare...

That's how you learn to write, isn't it? you read other people's writing--you read books. it's really shocking how few people actually do that, and even the ones who do seem to respond to in in mechanical, thoughtless ways. why don't students emulate the styles of the authors they read?

i don't think teachers even consider advising students to do so. they give you formulas rather than taking styles from authors (of something other than a damn grammar textbook). Ah, government education. we give education to everyone, but the cost is that everyone gets a mediocre (at best) education--unless they have parents who are willing to educate them as well, or a lot of money, heh.


Hey you did 100 years and house of spirits too. yeah i liked 100 years much better than house of spirits, the whole cyclic thing really intrigued me. Like water for chocolate is another good magical realism book. Im disappointed that most schools only teach shakespear's tragedy's like hamlet and lear and henry...and the cliche romeo and juliet, i wish more schools did much ado about nothing or midsummers night! I quite enjoyed a dolls house, our HL class didn't do it, but the other HL class did, so i borrowed on of my friends books to read in my spare time! I think we did gatsby, great expectations, pride and prejudice (i love this book so much i make it a point to read it each year), heart of darkness, and a couple others...heat and dust i think and 1984. our teacher chose pretty good books considering the fact that theres a wide selection.

we did a lot of plath, i hate plath, she makes me sick. haha

Yeah my parents too were really keen on encouraging me to read as a kid. didn't really matter what i read as long as i read, tolkien, eddings, CS lewis (love chron of narnia), vanity fair (not the magazine). you can never read enough.

I totally agree with you when it comes to style. The more you read and the more styles you are exposed to the better you become at writting and developing your own style. You can learn all the rules and expect to be brilliant, you have to be exposed and practice writting.

makes me glad i wasnt in a public school.

[Chip NoVaMac]

It is funny that you mention this. I am a new Mac user. i have spell check on when I reply to the forums. It is frustrating coming from Windows when words that Windows I think would have caught but the Mac doesn't. It does force me to re-look closer at what I post. I think that is a positive.

[janey]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
It is funny that you mention this. I am a new Mac user. i have spell check on when I reply to the forums. It is frustrating coming from Windows when words that Windows I think would have caught but the Mac doesn't. It does force me to re-look closer at what I post. I think that is a positive.
yeah applespell isnt perfect...
i have tons of trouble with like computer terminology too, cuz the default dictionaries have only like generic words. grr.

virividox: hey i go to a public school :p some are great, some are crap

[virividox]

Originally posted by übergeek


virividox: hey i go to a public school :p some are great, some are crap

well back home in the philippines public schools suck

[janey]

Originally posted by virividox
well back home in the philippines public schools suck
ah.
well most public schools in the US suck ass, but there are a few notably good ones.

On the other hand, i can think of a zillion "good" private schools :rolleyes: eek :)

maybe i should consider myself lucky, after all there is no such thing as a free "public" school in some countries.

[virividox]

yeah compared to the rest of the world the us has a good education system, at least everyone can access it

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by kingjr3
phoenetic
correct spelling is 'phonetic' (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=phonetic)

:D

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by virividox
makes me glad i wasnt in a public school. I went to a public school too. it kicked some ass, i must say. it was competitive as hell at my level. i am no idiot, and i had to fight like a mofo to graduate in the top 10%. ok, so i'm lying, i was really lazy my senior year, but still, the place has some major achievers, and even a few math geniuses who were taking graduate level math (and laughing at it) before the end of their senior year.

i wouldn't diss on public schools categorically--my school was a national blue ribbon school my sophomore year, and not the other two years because they were criticized for "focusing on the 'low end' or 'special ed' children and the extremely gifted (AP/IB) kids but skimping on the 'kids in the middle.'" oh well; i wasn't "in the middle," luckily. ;)

If you liked Chronicles of Narnia, i HIGHLY recommend Lewis' Space Trilogy. it's a much more 'adult' series, but it's really amazing. the first book is called Out of the Silent Planet and then there is [/i]Perelandra[/i] and That Hideous Strength.

I think Tolkien and Lewis were two of the best authors of the 20th century. while other authors were going off trying to be as radically different as they could and many were selling their skills as writers out to ridiculous, narrow agendas, Lewis and Tolkien spent their time thinking about what makes a story great and implementing that into their books. And we read everyone else in school. pfft!

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by Frohickey
correct spelling is 'phonetic' (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=phonetic)

:D i thought that was the joke. "phoenetic" is the pseudophonetic spelling of "phonetic." i guess if he'd wanted to make it obvious, though, he might have said "foenetic."

[Frohickey]

I think that what is lacking is adequate homework. For writing composition, the correct homework is reading assignments of the classical works. This not only gets students to learn grammar, but also sentence structure and proper organization of the topic. I remember going to high school where there was a reading assignment for next-year's class being given at the last day of the prior class. The teacher for 10th grade was invited to the 9th grade class and he gave out assignment sheets with a list of books to be read during the summer break.

Following that, there were reading assignments where students were expected to read a certain number of pages, and daily 10 question quizzes were given to gauge if the required pages were read. Add to this some vocabulary words, and you had your classwork for the year. Midterm composition was researching an author, and presenting to the class.

[coolsoldier]

Originally posted by �bergeek
ah.
well most public schools in the US suck ass, but there are a few notably good ones.

On the other hand, i can think of a zillion "good" private schools :rolleyes: eek :)

I think most of school performance, in public or private schools, has little to do with the school itself; it has more to do with the motivation of individual students. I went to public school for high school, while a few of my friends went to private school. While the private schools were considered "better," I came out knowing just as much, and in some subjects more, than my friends in private school. I conclude that private schools perform better not because they are better schools, but because they select better students. I personally oppose the existence of selective high schools completely.

And like a few people have mentioned here, I think NCLB hurts education by wasting time and money. Giving students mandatory tests wastes the time and money that could be used to create smaller class sizes, buy better equipment, provide better training, and countless other things, and the only thing it accomplishes is identifying the same problems that have already been identified a million times before.

Using "assessment," or "higher standards" as a way to fix a problem would be considered ridiculous anywhere else. Imagine:

"Well, my house is falling apart. If I have it appraised, that will fix it, and then I won't have to repair it."

"Well, the paint is coming off of the walls. If I decide that the walls need more paint, that'll fix it, and then I won't have to paint them."

The former is basically what we are saying when we say that giving students more tests will do anything other then tell us we have a problem we already know we have, and the latter is basically the same as what we are saying when we say that we can fix our schools' problems just by setting higher standards than those that the schools are already not meeting.

[coolsoldier]

Originally posted by Frohickey
For writing composition, the correct homework is reading assignments of the classical works.

I would have to disagree on that one... While I think that classes give out the wrong kinds of homework (answering lists of questions doesn't effectively teach anyone to read or write well), I think the the correct homework for writing composition should be, well, writing compositions.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by coolsoldier
I would have to disagree on that one... While I think that classes give out the wrong kinds of homework (answering lists of questions doesn't effectively teach anyone to read or write well), I think the the correct homework for writing composition should be, well, writing compositions. no, you can't just start writing. no truly good writer doesn't read. good writers are steeped in good literature. good writers learn to write well by reading others' good writing. you can't learn to write by just writing stuff using the "jane sheaffer rubric." your english teacher can't just go on about grammar rules, remind students to vary sentence length--mix up the simple, compound, complex, and compound-complex sentences, to make the thesis the last sentence of the introduction, to make the topic sentence of every paragraph, to conclude each paragraph with a "catchy" summary... that makes for terrible writing. TERRIBLE writing. i wrote like that for the grade for awhile, and made it of course, but i hated my papers. on IB papers where we got more leeway (damn jane sheaffer, damn her to hell!), i got a chance to excel, and that has been true so far in college too. again, i didn't learn to write just by doing the stupid writing assignments in high school. i learned to write by reading good literature, reading my dad's writing and talking about it, talking to him about mine--and all of that within the context of authors and how they write well.

of COURSE students must write to learn how to write. that goes without saying. but that alone is not good enough to learn to be a good writer.

[coolsoldier]

Originally posted by shadowfax
no, you can't just start writing. no truly good writer doesn't read. good writers are steeped in good literature. good writers learn to write well by reading others' good writing.

Hence English Literature should be (and usually is) a prerequisite for English Composition. Composition courses are about making the transition from reading to writing. If you have not already been taught literature, you have no business even signing up to take a composition course.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by coolsoldier
Hence English Literature should be (and usually is) a prerequisite for English Composition. Composition courses are about making the transition from reading to writing. If you have not already been taught literature, you have no business even signing up to take a composition course. yeah, though i think it's better to learn both at the same time.

[Opteron]

Originally posted by shadowfax
IB is not always all that great. it's still highly dependent on the particular school. i graduated IB and i HATED the english department. my teacher was an incompetent fool whose writing was worse than several of the students'. it was ridiculous. I like IB's theoretical approach to english/literature, but it's not always implemented that way into a specific program.

My School had both SACE (South Australian Certificate of Education) and the IB. Most kids take SACE since the course, as a whole tends to be easier, not requiring a second language (that is if you don't count maths as a language and I most definitely do.) I graduated with SACE and have come to believe as many my school friends have also come to believe (who did the IB) that the IB is a waste of time and effort.

However this thread isn't about how adequate the education system is in various locations around the world, but rather that the general level of non-maths based languages is beginning to fall, especially in terms of English.
However this thread isn't about how adequate the education system is in various locations around the world, but rather that the general level of non-maths based languages is beginning to fall, especially in terms of English in the US. One could also argue that the standing of handwriting has fallen over the years as well

Therein, I would say computers and the infamous “spell check” have a lot to answer for. I for one tend to write far better by hand (grammatically) than on a computer. As an Engineering student I have had to write many reports and without fail my hand written ones are always substantially better.

[shadowfax]

personally, i think blaming computers for people's laziness is kinda cheap. i use a spellchecker in word, but not online or anywhere else. and i don't misspell words; i rarely even "commit" typos. i don't capitalize here and in some of my writing (and on AIM) as both a convenience and a stylistic element. when i write my dad an email, i always go back and make sure everything is properly capitalized. I don't think that computers should be the cause of such a thoughtless backsliding, and i don't think they really are. our education system was slacking in value long before every paper became word processed. computers are a good thing. you can edit your writing without turning your paper into a palimpsest or filling the page with scratchouts of mistakes, or (oh evil!) writing your paper all over again from scratch. I know oxford stands by the rewriting principle, but it really is just a bunch of BS. people should learn how to use computers to their advantage rather than use them to slack off or blame them for their stupid problems.

[Opteron]

Originally posted by shadowfax
our education system was slacking in value long before every paper became word processed. computers are a good thing.

I agree with a fair amount of your post esp. this section. My main poin tis that while computers can be used to do a great amount of good. The slack person can cut countless corners and still get a half reasonable product at the end.

The problem then arises when it comes time to take a hand written exam. and all thoses short cuts are not avaliable.

[virividox]

Originally posted by Opteron
My School had both SACE (South Australian Certificate of Education) and the IB. Most kids take SACE since the course, as a whole tends to be easier, not requiring a second language (that is if you don't count maths as a language and I most definitely do.) I graduated with SACE and have come to believe as many my school friends have also come to believe (who did the IB) that the IB is a waste of time and effort.


i disagree, i think IB wasnt a waste of time. i got 3 7s and enough credit to skip a lot of introductory courses, and having a second language aside from english is helpful, not necesarilly apparent in your academic life, but when you travel and eventually when you look for a job.

[virividox]

Originally posted by shadowfax
I went to a public school too. it kicked some ass, i must say. it was competitive as hell at my level. i am no idiot, and i had to fight like a mofo to graduate in the top 10%. ok, so i'm lying, i was really lazy my senior year, but still, the place has some major achievers, and even a few math geniuses who were taking graduate level math (and laughing at it) before the end of their senior year.

i wouldn't diss on public schools categorically--my school was a national blue ribbon school my sophomore year, and not the other two years because they were criticized for "focusing on the 'low end' or 'special ed' children and the extremely gifted (AP/IB) kids but skimping on the 'kids in the middle.'" oh well; i wasn't "in the middle," luckily. ;)



im glad you had a good public school. unfortunately in the philippines the public education is really terrible. most of the time there arent enough books for students, classrooms are overcrowded, and only a minute percentage have access to computers. So if people can afford it they send their kids to private schools.

[Opteron]

Originally posted by virividox
i disagree, i think IB wasnt a waste of time. i got 3 7s and enough credit to skip a lot of introductory courses, and having a second language aside from english is helpful, not necesarilly apparent in your academic life, but when you travel and eventually when you look for a job.

Yes that's one of the advantages aspects of the IB, the fact that if you undertake some of the higher level subjects, eg, maths (in my situation) I would have been able to by pass the first simester of maths @ uni. However Should this had been the case by second simester I would have been far behind because of not having done any real maths for 6 months. Where I'm at uni, first and second year maths is very challenging, along with the mechanics and fluids subjects engineerng students must also undertake.

Due to the high work load imposed in the IB, the one thing a good student will really get out f the course is a great work ethic, and will learn to manage their time effectivly. As I said I however did SACE, and must say enjoyed the year (all be it almost a year and a half since I finished.)

Really though it's 'horses for courses,' some kids will get a lot out of the IB, while the demarnd placed may cripple and depress others. On the other hand an average student who works hard in the State standard (SACE in my case) may do better, than if they attempted the IB. It's really up to the indervidual and how much EFFORT they are willing to put in.

[shadowfax]

is "indervidual" a joke, an australian spelling, or just a mistake?

[virividox]

Originally posted by shadowfax
is "indervidual" a joke, an australian spelling, or just a mistake?

probably a joke hehe pretty funny tho

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by virividox
probably a joke hehe pretty funny tho i like scott adams' rendition of the individual--"induhvidual."

[virividox]

DILBERT!!! hehe

[jeremy.king]

Originally posted by shadowfax
personally, i think blaming computers for people's laziness is kinda cheap. i use a spellchecker in word, but not online or anywhere else. and i don't misspell words; i rarely even "commit" typos. i don't capitalize here and in some of my writing (and on AIM) as both a convenience and a stylistic element. when i write my dad an email, i always go back and make sure everything is properly capitalized. I don't think that computers should be the cause of such a thoughtless backsliding, and i don't think they really are. our education system was slacking in value long before every paper became word processed. computers are a good thing. you can edit your writing without turning your paper into a palimpsest or filling the page with scratchouts of mistakes, or (oh evil!) writing your paper all over again from scratch. I know oxford stands by the rewriting principle, but it really is just a bunch of BS. people should learn how to use computers to their advantage rather than use them to slack off or blame them for their stupid problems.

The key word in that statement is I, you are just talking about yourself and I would guarantee you are in the minority if compared to today's kids.

Computers are making people lazy, why bother learning math when a calculator can do it? Why bother learning to spell or how to make a complete sentence when a spell check or grammar check can fix it?

I used my wife as an example because she doesn't allow typed papers. Instead, she gets a pile of garbage with every assignment. I would venture to guess that 80% of her students can't spell or write a complete sentence.

Who to blame is a great question? Parents, Kids, Teachers, NCLB, gov't? You could argue any of those, but I do know that bad parenting is partially to blame. Again, that is my opinion.

As for the "phoenetic" mispelling, that was actually just a typo. Should have used a spellchecker :)

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by kingjr3
mispelling

Ah, the irony. ;)

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by kingjr3
Computers are making people lazy, why bother learning math when a calculator can do it? Why bother learning to spell or how to make a complete sentence when a spell check or grammar check can fix it? you make them sound evil.

you're wrong. i was using a personal example to show that it's PEOPLE who are lazy. tools just facilitate that better. you can't blame a TOOL becuase your kids are f***ing dumbasses. they do that to themselves.

[coolsoldier]

You can't really blame the tools like spell checkers and calculators for students' inability to spell or do math. Spell checkers are there because people misspell words, and calculators are there because people don't know how to do math. The existence of these tools are a symptom of the problems people have anyway. And assuming the ultimate goal is to be able to type a readable paper or arrive at a correct answer, the use of common tools to arrive at those answers is not a problem.

Since spell checkers and calculators are tools that are widely available in the post-education world where students apply the skills they learn in school, it doesn't seem like a problem that their education teaches them to make the best use of the tools available.

[Opteron]

Originally posted by shadowfax
you make them sound evil.

you're wrong. i was using a personal example to show that it's PEOPLE who are lazy. tools just facilitate that better. you can't blame a TOOL becuase your kids are f***ing dumbasses. they do that to themselves.

Laziness, begets inventiveness (I should use that as my quote.) The issue here Shadow is that on average the standard of education is falling. And the reason is that people (children and teenagers especially who know how to use the technology) are able to ‘get away’ with elementary mistakes, that show up clear as day when those technological aids are removed. Why nut it out when I can use a calculator? Or Why look it up in a dictionary when I can use the spell check…

For example: you have less than 2 seconds to come up with the answer to this maths equation 13x17. This was a question I received in a job interview with the Australian Defence Force, along with many others. The answer is twohundredandtwentyone. This kind of speed and accuracy maths testing has somewhat gone buy the wayside.

P.S: sorry about my spelling of individual

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by Opteron
Laziness, begets inventiveness (I should use that as my quote.) make sure you say "Laziness begets inventiveness." you can't separate a subject and a verb in a sentence except by some kind of parenthesis (like an appositive). ;)

i know that computers make people lazy in the sense that people (quite stupidly) take advantage of those technologies to forego knowing even the most basic things (like spelling a word like "individual" or "by," ;) or some truly basic ones like "maybe" [NOT mabey] or even "truly" [NOT truely]). the problem is not with the spellchecker, though. it's the state of mind. you don't NEED to look up every word you can't spell--you can take advantage of the spellchecker and still learn it. the problem is that students don't read over what they write after they write it. they make the mistake and it gets corrected and they don't give a s**t. is the problem that student's aren't learning and it's getting fixed anyway? NO! i submit to you that students wouldn't give a s**t even if their idiotic mistakes weren't corrected.

people still write like crap on the computer with the spell checker and THEY DON'T CARE. bad spelling, if it were the only problem, could almost reasonably (though still wrongly) be blamed on technology. but no amount of technology can make you a truly good writer any more than the jane sheaffer method of essays can make you an effective essayist. people don't get their writing fixed by a computer in a holistic sense, and it still sucks like nothing else. the problem is not and cannot ever be the technology itself. that is a cop-out answer that seeks to blame anyone but those responsible.

as to math... FOIL makes any 2 digit and most 3 digit multiplications easily performed as a series of shamefully basic additions... you don't need to write anything out or do multiplication past 12*12 (the highest we usually go on the tables)

(10 + 7)(10 + 3)=100 + 70 + 30 + 21

can't do it in 2 seconds, 5 maybe.... :eek:

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by kingjr3
I could buy the phone argument since keying in a message on a phone is tedious, but not for keyboard input. To me -- its lazy.

IMO, if someone wants to fill the stereotype of "stupid American" tehy can, but I will, at a minumum, try to spell words correctly.

i count at minimum two mistakes there. at least one of them i could say is grammatical, with the other being a typo.. along with (as someone pointed out) the acronym usage which to me, is lazy...

i'll agree that education in this country is bad and the importance placed on standardized tests is worsening things. but to try to draw much from the typing on these boards is a bit much... i will say though, that in general, people (ie, kids) spend more time instant messaging than talking or writing "formal" type stuff, and thus, they are more likely to at least forget some grammatical rules and such... when they type "ur" and "lol" all day, it's easy to see why they might fall into that during the course of more formal writings.

i'm done.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i count at minimum two mistakes there. at least one of them i could say is grammatical, with the other being a typo.. along with (as someone pointed out) the acronym usage which to me, is lazy... what grammatical error? i see some poor comma usage, come to that--is that what you're talking about? all i see is the typo.

[virividox]

now we are getting all technical. :)

just a question, to the original poster, how much leeway does your wife get when making the lesson plans

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by virividox
now we are getting all technical. :) god forbid we get technical and actually become better writers! :p

[Opteron]

Originally posted by shadowfax
1: make sure you say "Laziness begets inventiveness." you can't separate a subject and a verb in a sentence except by some kind of parenthesis (like an appositive). ;)

2: i know that computers make people lazy in the sense that people (quite stupidly) take advantage of those technologies to forego knowing even the most basic things

3:people still write like crap on the computer with the spell checker and THEY DON'T CARE. bad spelling, if it were the only problem, could almost reasonably (though still wrongly) be blamed on technology.

4:as to math... FOIL makes any 2 digit and most 3 digit multiplications easily performed as a series of shamefully basic additions

(10 + 7)(10 + 3)=100 + 70 + 30 + 21

1: well yesI shouldn't have used the comer.

2: That's what I'm trying to get at.

3: "They Don't care," that's a really big issue that has to do with work ethic. And thus links with point 2. Also "Wrongly" is about the worst word in the english language, better to be replaced with "incorrectly."

4: I never thought of using FOIL in that mannor.

[rueyeet]

Hah! You think these boards are emblematic of the degeneration of our youth's communication skills? You should see some of the incoherent dribble on some of the other boards I've seen. If anything, this board gives weight to the observation that on average, Mac users are better educated.

Sample post (and never mind the content):

its just family problems with my dad and grandparents,my bunny dieing ok thats like a person dieing to me because my animals are mine and something i take care of and make me smile and thats a big thing for me and i lost it,ok and then i hate school because i feel like im failing in some classes already and i really cant stand anyone i hangout with anymore i just cant stand to even look at them and i hate that so much,theres just nothing to be happy about anymore,theres just so much running through my mind and i cant take it anymore but im just sick of everyone
when a teacher asked me a simple ? today i couldnt even answer it because i cant think.

Yeah, no kidding. This is actually fairly coherent compared to some of what I've seen, frighteningly enough.

I once came across an article about a middle- or high-schooler who had complained to the school system about not being allowed to use AOL-speak in her essays. Makes you feel all warm inside, doesn't it?

[coolsoldier]

Originally posted by rueyeet
I once came across an article about a middle- or high-schooler who had complained to the school system about not being allowed to use AOL-speak in her essays. Makes you feel all warm inside, doesn't it?

One of these days, American English will split into two dialects -- one for the people that use AOL, and one for everybody else :D.

[virividox]

Originally posted by shadowfax
god forbid we get technical and actually become better writers! :p

have you read a clockwork orange, a. burgess broke all the rules and made a great book.

but before you can break the rules you need to know them.

[coolsoldier]

It's worth noting on the spelling issue that most of the literature assigned to high school students was written before there were any universally accepted standards for spelling. Prior to the completion of the Oxford English Dictionary in 1928, the spelling of words was quite subjective. In the original manuscripts of much 18th and 19th century literature, there are many words that are spelled several different ways even within one work. This is not to say that spelling isn't important -- society expects words to be spelled a certain way in formal writing, but different and inconsistent spellings in common culture have existed as long as the language has, and are the largest contributors to the evolution of the language.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by shadowfax
what grammatical error? i see some poor comma usage, come to that--is that what you're talking about? all i see is the typo.

well i meant using "its" instead of "it's"... which i see as grammatical, though i suppose it could in theory be a typo

the typo being "tehy" or whatever..

word

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by kingjr3
So my wife is a teacher in IL and the state often applies pressures to sub-performing districts to drive up test scores or face some penalty (whatever that may be). So in order to do so, they often focus on subjects they know will be on the ISAT. I am sure other states have similar states have similar tests and mandates.

Unfortunately, this teaching style comes at a cost. It seems nowadays, that American's abilities to speak and spell is going to the sh!**er. I have helped my wife grade short essays and other papers from her 6th and 7th graders, and I must say it was an eye opening experience. The errors these kids are making wouldn't have allowed me to graduate....2nd grade!

Why the rant???

I'm a devoted Mac owner and fan and I visit this site often. After reading hundreds of the posts I realize how bad it’s getting. I'm not picking on anyone in particular, but it seems the spelling on this very site is especially horrendous! Granted quick typing causes some errors, but most of the errors are just unacceptable. I myself have made several grammatical and spelling errors in my posts, but I consider myself somewhat edu-ma-cated!

I understand that the community in this forum is international, but I am seeing people from the US misspelling EASY words! The best are the phoenetic spellings. I don't think I need to list them (as I don't want to single out anyone), as we all have seen them. You can almost figure out the age of some of the users of this site based on their grammar and spelling. Sometimes I will politely remind people how to use the english language, but most times I remain silent. Heck, I’m sure someone may even find an error in this post :)

I can only think that with the advent of computers and technology and teachers now "teaching to the test", we are sacrificing our abilities to communicate effectively through words.

We, as Americans, seem to be falling more and more behind other countries with respect to education and this very forum is a living example.

Thoughts?

i will be the first to admit that i am one of the worst offenders on the site...i rarely use caps and i fall into run on sentenes and use these stupid three dots...every now and then

but then again, i scored a 450 on my SAT in english and that is not very good at all...but i scored in the top 1 percent on the sat math portion, which explains why i am involved with computers, and not writing novels or teaching english in school

i could give all types of excuses for why i am such a poor speller and have horrendous sentence structure...and being good or bad at math has nothing to do with it...it comes down to me being lazy when i type and not at all concerned with choosing the best words to get my points across:p

[jeremy.king]

We, as Americans, seem to be falling more and more behind other countries with respect to education and this very forum is a living example.

Thoughts?

Almost a year later, we (Americans) are still stupid...

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

[kiwi-in-uk]

An interesting and disturbing article.
If it's any consolation I have observed similar situations in the UK and Australia. In the UK a friend's daughters must go to a zoned high school that has one of the worst academic and behavioural records in the country. One daughter is handling it - so far - but the other is almost illiterate at 16.

In Australia my three children have attended a state primary school that appears to classify ALL kids as "average". One son has clinically measured learning difficulties, is physically and emotionally "young" for his age, and (even now at 13) has trouble reading texts suitable for seven year olds. Until his last year in primary school at age 12, he was classified as VERY slightly below average and "developing". When challenged, the teachers said it is their assessment and not negotiable. Not much help to my son as he is pushed inexorably through the high school sausage machine!
My younger son (now aged 9) reads and comprehends some adult books (most recently, biographies of Napoleon and Julius Caesar) as well as high school classics such as Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies, and some simple adult fiction (he is enjoying Boris Akunin's "Fandorin" books). The same school classes his reading ability as "average". When challenged the teacher said that he hadn't read more of the allocated age group books than other kids in the class (the number of books available is only a couple more than there are kids in the class so he had had little opportunity!). He had been borrowing books from higher grades. Of course those books were not in the syllabus for his grade so they were not assessed. Can't win.
My daughter (now aged 13) had been a bright and enthusiastic student until age 10. Then her enthusiasm died, she became indifferent about school, and did not focus. After she started high school we found out from the mother of her - then - classmate that her teacher at the time had been shouting at her and calling her "dumb". It is too late now, but even if we had known at the time, the school is run in such a way that we could not have done a thing. The principal avoids parents and parents' complaints.
Interestingly (and back to the article, finally) this is a rural school with a de facto monopoly. There are no local alternatives ... no competition ... and little objective involvement by the mandarins in the state's education department. It certainly sounds like some of the situations described in the article!

Sorry about the long post. As you might understand this is a topic that concerns me enormously.

[maxterpiece]

I think the original poster makes a good point in saying that standardized tests oversimplify education and are often operate more as a distraction than the benchmark that they are intended to be. I disagree with the whole idea of this messageboard, spellcheckers, calculators, etc being the problem. These new technologies may provide a way for students to get through public schools (and life) without learning to properly spell, write or do math, but these techs aren't going to go away.

No matter how you cut the cookie, people are going to adapt the way they communicate to whatever means of communication they have available them. If the traditional english language isn't the most efficient way of communicating via the internet, instant messaging, text messaging and messageboards, then people aren't going to use the traditional english language there.

And indeed, this new style of slang - internet slang - is going to make it's way into schools. It should be noted that it is no different from the slang kids used on the street before the internet was around. So, if slang has always existed in one form or another, what is it about today's society that is causing the American school system to falter?

I can think of two factors:

The first is the cancerous growth of consumerism. Consumerism teaches all about the rewards and easy fixes in life. You can't sell hard work to people. What you can sell is this concept that action is no longer relevant, and that what's really important in terms of achieving and finding happiness, is buying more and more stuff. In other words, the idea of action and hard work has practically been erased from western societies' collective consciousness and has been replaced with the words, "buy more!!!!!". This idea penetrates deeper and deeper into each generation, as advertisements find ways to penetrate deeper and deeper into our lives. I mean, nowadays it's hard to look around and not see several ads trying to grab your attention and convince you that they are the simple answer to your problems.

The second factor I believe is a symptom of the first, but deserves independent comment. The standardized testing imposed upon public schools by nclb is a copout by the federal government in terms of education. It was Bush's way of trying to wipe his hands clean of the entire education question. He played the whole thing off like he was putting the onus on the schools - he "had provided adequate resources for success", now the schools had to perform. What ended up happening is exactly what the creator of this thread was talking about - teachers are being forced to focus on these BS exams instead of on what they know their students need. And think about it - what could be more of symbolic gesture that school is BS than your teacher more or less saying, "alright class, even though we were working on important stuff, we have to stop now and try to teach you strategies for this standardized test. You won't be able to use these strategies at all for the rest your life, but that's the way the school system works." I mean, no the teacher isn't going to be that blunt, but they are going to say something that suggests exactly that.

[Counterfit]

The second factor I believe is a symptom of the first, but deserves independent comment. The standardized testing imposed upon public schools by nclb is a copout by the federal government in terms of education. It was Bush's way of trying to wipe his hands clean of the entire education question. He played the whole thing off like he was putting the onus on the schools - he "had provided adequate resources for success", now the schools had to perform. What ended up happening is exactly what the creator of this thread was talking about - teachers are being forced to focus on these BS exams instead of on what they know their students need. And think about it - what could be more of symbolic gesture that school is BS than your teacher more or less saying, "alright class, even though we were working on important stuff, we have to stop now and try to teach you strategies for this standardized test. You won't be able to use these strategies at all for the rest your life, but that's the way the school system works." I mean, no the teacher isn't going to be that blunt, but they are going to say something that suggests exactly that.
Another problem with the NCLB, is that it focuses on the "core" subjects - English, math, science, and probably something else that I'm forgetting. It doesn't provide much support for fine arts, where some students find great comfort which can keep them in school, and learning of the arts (visual, performance) can also help students learn better outside of those subjects.
Of course, there's also the part about it being horribly underfunded... :rolleyes:




*I guarantee that any spelling and/or grammatical errors in this post are due to me posting at 5am. :D

[Ugg]

Interestingly (and back to the article, finally) this is a rural school with a de facto monopoly. There are no local alternatives ... no competition ... and little objective involvement by the mandarins in the state's education department. It certainly sounds like some of the situations described in the article!

Sorry about the long post. As you might understand this is a topic that concerns me enormously.

Rural schools IMO, are some of the worst when it comes to educating students. There simply isn't the amount of students necessary to offer alternatives.

I disagree with the monopoly thrust of the article. The zoning and exclusionary aspects of many school districts in the US is right on though. Choice shouldn't include private schools (and mostly religious schools) but should include the opportunity to send your child to the best school in your community.

As far as NCLB, it's all a bunch of crap and just teaching kids rote memorization. What's the point?

[jdechko]

I think most of school performance, in public or private schools, has little to do with the school itself; it has more to do with the motivation of individual students. I went to public school for high school, while a few of my friends went to private school. While the private schools were considered "better," I came out knowing just as much, and in some subjects more, than my friends in private school. I conclude that private schools perform better not because they are better schools, but because they select better students. I personally oppose the existence of selective high schools completely

You raise an interesting point. I went to a Private (Christian) school for High School. Part of the reason that you learned more than your friends is that many private schools just don't have the facilities/faculty that are present in a public school. I went to a very small school; there were 24 students in my senior class. When I was a freshman, there were only about 12 seniors. There were 6 of us in my physics class and only 3 in my calculus class. Part of the problem is that there just aren't enough teachers to teach the subjects; there also aren't enough classrooms. My school only offered Spanish as a foreign language because they could only find someone to teach Spanish. Not only that, but due to the number of classrooms and faculty, each class was offered at only one time during the day. So I had to take a self-study Chemistry... yes, self-study. I had to rework my schedule around what classes were offered. I realize that there are much larger private schools which offer as much as a public school, but there are many more small private schools.

I think the reason that private schools perform "better" (because in some cases they do, and in some they don't) is that private schools don't necessarily have to adhere to the national/state standards. I never had to take an exit exam, or too many other standardized tests (I took the PSAT and some military placement test, along with the SAT). Therefore, the teachers were free to teach more "relevant" material (ie: teaching to learn, not teaching to pass a test). My english teacher (same one for 4 years) taught us grammar in great depth: to the point that we had to memorize everything from comma rules, to split infinitives, to dangling prepositions. At the end of every year, we would have to take a proofreading test covering all sorts of grammar, including the above mentioned items as well as misused words. He would allow you to make up to 5 mistakes on the test to pass (out of about 50 total mistakes). If you passed the test, you didn't have to take it again. If you didn't pass, you had to keep retaking the test until you did (including coming after school, after a certain number of in-class tests). It sucked, but I learned a lot, and I still remember many of the rules.

I don't agree with your "better students" argument. I will not say that there are as many incidents as in a public school, but there is a lot of stuff that goes on. For instance, there were a few fights at my school, and some people got kicked out of school for doing stupid stuff (like threatening to bring a gun to school and smoking pot at a school function). Kids will be kids, and will continue to do stupid stuff and be disruptive, but overall, I think that the discipline is better at a private school, because it is allowed to be.

My wife and I have discussed this in depth, and have decided that if it financially feasable, we will enroll our children in a private school.

[maxterpiece]

Another problem with the NCLB, is that it focuses on the "core" subjects - English, math, science, and probably something else that I'm forgetting. It doesn't provide much support for fine arts, where some students find great comfort which can keep them in school, and learning of the arts (visual, performance) can also help students learn better outside of those subjects.
Of course, there's also the part about it being horribly underfunded... :rolleyes:




*I guarantee that any spelling and/or grammatical errors in this post are due to me posting at 5am. :D

Yes this is a very good point. To make student care about school, the school first has to prove that it cares about that student. These types of extracurricular programs can make the difference in terms of helping a student see what it feels like to do hard work and have it pay off.

[freeny]

People use to say the same crap about my generation (35yo) and I'm sure they said the same about the previous generation. It all works out in the end for most people. And the others were meant to fail anyway. People generally get it by the time they leave college and thats when it matters.

If my grammer and spellink is not up to par I will just blame it on the fact that I went to art skool.;)

[jefhatfield]

People use to say the same crap about my generation (35yo) and I'm sure they said the same about the previous generation. It all works out in the end for most people. And the others were meant to fail anyway. People generally get it by the time they leave college and thats when it matters.

If my grammer and spellink is not up to par I will just blame it on the fact that I went to art skool.;)

i am from your generation and i think people should "get it" by the time they leave high school since only a quarter of people have 4 or more years of college under their belts...and the percentage is less than ten percent for those from the early boomer years

if our society is short on money for education and they have to make a committment to make things the best they can be for the largest amount of kids, they should focus the spending on K-12...governor arnold in california has done some things for our college system (some say not enough) but has largely ignored our most crucial k-12 system...it's a shame

[thedude110]

Almost a year later, we (Americans) are still stupid...

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312


It seems to me that this article is an editorial disguising itself as news. Claiming that a lack of competition is the reason that schools are "failing" is frighteningly reductive.

One reason nobody talks about: you get "bad teachers" in public schools and "good teachers" in private schools because of the way those teachers are treated. In public schools, faculty often have little to no control over curricula -- they're told what to teach, they teach it -- even if it's way over their student's heads or way below their ability level. In private schools, faculty often get to design their own courses and teach material that they're confident will resonate with their students.

Empower teachers to make their own decisions and they're more engaged in their teaching. Make them teach Macbeth to 16 year olds who can barely read and they get burnt out.

My juniors came in the door in August reading and writing on a middle school level. Some of my colleagues get their lesson plans from the internet and won't go above "6th grade level," even with our seniors, because it's "too hard." I guarantee you that if they could teach materials they wanted to teach -- and didn't have to find lesson plans for Macbeth -- they wouldn't be underselling the kids so significantly.

And then they wouldn't come into my classroom functionally illiterate.