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MacBytes
Nov 19, 2008, 08:27 PM
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Category: Apple Services
Link: Ex-Floyd manager: iTunes an album sales ‘disaster’ (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20081119212703)
Description:: One time manager of Pink Floyd, Sincere Management’s Pete Jenner slammed iTunes for its effect on album sales at a UK music industry event this week.

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

BornAgainMac
Nov 19, 2008, 08:30 PM
Solution? Make all the music on the album not suck.

majordude
Nov 19, 2008, 08:40 PM
Solution? Make all the music on the album not suck.

Brilliant! ;)

bmb012
Nov 19, 2008, 09:06 PM
“buy the two album tracks that are worth buying,”

I got a solution to that problem for ya, and it involves removing your head from some place unpleasant ;)

Ironic, though, considering 'The Wall' is an absolute masterpiece from start to finish, and is an example of a CD that should not be unbundled, the likes of which quite simply don't exist today.

trbeat
Nov 19, 2008, 09:18 PM
Ironic, though, considering 'The Wall' is an absolute masterpiece from start to finish, and is an example of a CD that should not be unbundled, the likes of which quite simply don't exist today.

Here is another example of where Apple can never win. I totally agree with the comment above, but I see so many posts on reviews of albums where people complain that they have to buy the whole album. As sad as it is, the record companies want everything, they want to release crap albums and force the consumer to buy it ....

casik
Nov 19, 2008, 09:21 PM
if you like it all buy it all, if not, then don't!.... does that seem so odd?

JoePike
Nov 19, 2008, 09:25 PM
The tally was over five billion songs sold on iTunes the last time I heard...what a disaster.

Here's the flaw in his logic. People are MUCH more willing to spend $2 to download the two songs they really want to hear, rather than spending $14 for a CD that has the two songs they really want to hear and ten songs that they don't care about. I would guess that for every one person willing to buy a CD for full price there are twenty or more people willing to spend a buck for a really great song. Maybe more like fifty or a hundred. It's idiots like this guy that force Apple into offering "Album Only" tracks. If the physical medium is practically dead, why continue to conform to the limitations of that medium?

La Porta
Nov 19, 2008, 10:27 PM
Perfect example: Last week, I was more than willing to buy a certain song from the store. When I finally found the only version that the store carried, it was labeled as "Album Only." That was all I needed to hop on the LimeWire train. Seriously, I want to buy all this stuff legally. However, if they don't give me a good option to...I won't.

majordude
Nov 19, 2008, 10:41 PM
The music industry hasn't realized that their business model has changed. Actually, it has become obsolete.

Newspapers are next.

Go back just 30 years. Stop. There were these things called telegrams. Stop. You used to have to pay PER WORD. Stop!

Overnight you could send a fax for a few pennies and later, an email for free.

MacTheSpoon
Nov 19, 2008, 10:45 PM
I can see how this new business model could come to a shock to these big name bands that are used to moving lots of albums. I can see how'd they be bummed.

However, there is a flip side: I browse through the iTunes store and because I can listen to a 30 second sample, I have purchased many, many songs from obscure artists whose music I've happened on. After all, I'm only out a buck if I wind up not liking their song.

And I bet I'm not alone. So these littler guys are consequently getting some money from me and others, whereas they'd have gotten none otherwise.

So I think what's happening is that consumers' music budgets are getting spread out more evenly between big name acts and the little guys.

ezjohn1
Nov 19, 2008, 10:46 PM
I agree, The consensus among many people is to Pay for the tracks you want or Steal the whole Album (FREE).

I believe Mr. Jobs Has tried to work with these fools without a lot of success, The Tens of Thousands of Artists that do sell one track, are getting paid for at least that track. 100% of 0 is 0.

BTW, At least people now know Pink Floyd is still Alive :apple:

John

Surely
Nov 19, 2008, 10:54 PM
BTW, At least people now know Pink Floyd is still Alive :apple:

John

People know. You didn't.

chequepoint
Nov 19, 2008, 11:16 PM
The problem is for real artists, the album is an art form. Call it an album, a song cycle, a symphony, whatever. When you buy one movement, its like buying one chapter from a book, or one tenth of a painting. Real artists have a lot more to say than can be expressed in a 3 minute song. A lot of time, pain, and love is spent crafting the songs, how they go from one to the next, the careful scripting of the emotional journey that the artist is guiding you on...

jMc
Nov 20, 2008, 04:12 AM
The problem is for real artists, the album is an art form. Call it an album, a song cycle, a symphony, whatever. When you buy one movement, its like buying one chapter from a book, or one tenth of a painting. Real artists have a lot more to say than can be expressed in a 3 minute song. A lot of time, pain, and love is spent crafting the songs, how they go from one to the next, the careful scripting of the emotional journey that the artist is guiding you on...

This may be true. And people who care about that will continue to buy and listen to the whole album. Most people, however, don't care and only want one or two songs from the album. Making them buy the whole album for just a couple of songs only leads to two things:

i. they don't bother buying it at all
ii. they buy it and still only listen to the two songs they wanted in the first place while feeling ripped off

A few may listen to and like the whole album who wouldn't otherwise have done so, but really the album as a complete art work (in popular music, at least) is and always has been a niche art form.

jx

OllyW
Nov 20, 2008, 04:45 AM
Peter Jenner only co-managed Pink Floyd up until Syd Barrett's departure in 1968. When Syd left, Jenner and his co-manager Andrew King left Floyd to manage Barrett's solo career which was unsuccessful due to his deteriorating mental health.

Headlining Jenner in the article as the ex-manager of Floyd somewhat overstates his standing in the music industry. He was long gone before Pink Floyd enjoyed their massive worldwide success after the release of Dark Side of the Moon in 1973.

He is now more well know for coming out with outrageous ideas (http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/11/19/replacing-drm-with-a-music-tax-is-incredibly-stupid/) for solving the problems of the music industry.

mcnicks
Nov 20, 2008, 04:51 AM
BTW, At least people now know Pink Floyd is still Alive

By the way, which one's Pink?

Peterkro
Nov 20, 2008, 04:56 AM
Peter Jenner only co-managed Pink Floyd up until Syd Barrett's departure in 1968. When Syd left, Jenner and his co-manager Andrew King left Floyd to manage Barrett's solo career which was unsuccessful due to his deteriorating mental health.

Headlining Jenner in the article as the ex-manager of Floyd somewhat overstates his standing in the music industry. He was long gone before Pink Floyd enjoyed their massive worldwide success after the release of Dark Side of the Moon in 1973.

He is now more well know for coming out with outrageous ideas (http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/11/19/replacing-drm-with-a-music-tax-is-incredibly-stupid/) for solving the problems of the music industry.

You'll get a reputation for being sensible if you keep this up.

OllyW
Nov 20, 2008, 05:00 AM
You'll get a reputation for being sensible if you keep this up.

Sorry :o

PCMacUser
Nov 20, 2008, 05:09 AM
You'll get a reputation for being sensible if you keep this up.

It was much more fun watching the Apple apologists rage. Now that we know a bit more about the guy, there's nothing else to say really. :D

Porco
Nov 20, 2008, 05:42 AM
What I think they should do is give away the rest of the album for free when you buy say, 4 tracks (more or less depending on the album, but basically the singles, in most cases). That would actually boost the album as a concept. But they clearly value squeezing profits from the dwindling number of legitimate users over any kind of visionary new models that would appeal to everyone's idea of fairness.

They can't (or at least shouldn't) have it both ways and charge silly money for DRM-encrusted compressed files of songs you might not have even heard and then whinge about the poor tragic decline of the album.

To summarise: if it's about the art, man, put your money where your mouth is.

JoePike
Nov 20, 2008, 08:12 AM
The problem is for real artists, the album is an art form. Call it an album, a song cycle, a symphony, whatever. When you buy one movement, its like buying one chapter from a book, or one tenth of a painting. Real artists have a lot more to say than can be expressed in a 3 minute song. A lot of time, pain, and love is spent crafting the songs, how they go from one to the next, the careful scripting of the emotional journey that the artist is guiding you on...

The big problem is that real artists are so few and far between in today's music scene. I think that's what is so interesting about this article, despite the fact that the guy quoted was only semi-involved in the rise of Pink Floyd, everybody who's listened to their music knows that their albums were painstakingly crafted to have each track work as a piece of the puzzle and all flow together to create a true masterpiece. For some reason, I just don't think many of the industry's more current top sellers like Lil' Wayne put that kind of thought into things. Most of these people don't even write their own music or lyrics, play any instruments, or even sing particularly well. The whole system is just designed to manufacture cash.

By the way, which one's Pink?

And thanks to mcnicks for quoting a lyric from my favorite Floyd song, Have a Cigar, which ironically is about the hubris and greed of the music industry. Well done sir.

Sun Baked
Nov 20, 2008, 08:16 AM
The music industry hasn't realized that their business model has changed. Actually, it has become obsolete.

Newspapers are next.

Go back just 30 years. Stop. There were these things called telegrams. Stop. You used to have to pay PER WORD. Stop!

Overnight you could send a fax for a few pennies and later, an email for free.

So you expect more papers to go the way of Christian Science Monitor, with their announcement a couple weeks ago.

With their print edition basically stopping the presses for good, becoming the first major paper to go internet only.

---

Think it'll take the music industry to wake up ...

JoePike
Nov 20, 2008, 08:22 AM
How many of you guys have watched the Wizard of Oz synced up with The Dark Side of the Moon? Even stone cold sober, it is very trippy and very cool. Geniuses.

zombitronic
Nov 20, 2008, 09:10 AM
Yarrr, when the audio tradin' companies be imposin' steep tariffs on their goods, some entrepreneurin' mateys be takin' their business to the depths of the black market.

Schtumple
Nov 20, 2008, 09:39 AM
How many of you guys have watched the Wizard of Oz synced up with The Dark Side of the Moon? Even stone cold sober, it is very trippy and very cool. Geniuses.

Lol, that's a huge myth, Floyd didn't make the album to sync, it's pure coincidence, after watching it myself it wasn't as big (or trippy) as every made out...

Severely disappointed...

majordude
Nov 20, 2008, 11:06 AM
So you expect more papers to go the way of Christian Science Monitor, with their announcement a couple weeks ago.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2335009,00.asp

"The January 2009 issue (Volume 28, Issue 1) of PC Magazine will mark a monumental transition for the publication. It is the last printed edition of this venerable publication. Of course, as with any technology-related enterprise, this is not the end, but the beginning of something exciting and new."

And yes, it's the end of PC Magazine.

I still have a few of the early 1990's editions when they were 1.25" thick! :eek:

Blazecc
Nov 20, 2008, 11:47 AM
The problem is for real artists, the album is an art form. Call it an album, a song cycle, a symphony, whatever. When you buy one movement, its like buying one chapter from a book, or one tenth of a painting. Real artists have a lot more to say than can be expressed in a 3 minute song. A lot of time, pain, and love is spent crafting the songs, how they go from one to the next, the careful scripting of the emotional journey that the artist is guiding you on...

The problem now is that most 'artists' don't take the time to craft the 'CD experience'. Many artists don't even seem to care what order their songs fall in on the CD. I agree the albums like 'The Wall' and 'The Black Parade' Belong as sets, because they are carefully made to work together. But if an artist can't convince their fans that the entire album is an experience worth taking advantage of in a whole, then the artist should be happy they are at least still selling tracks.

For instance, the New Nickelback CD 'Dark Horse'. Overall, I would not pay money for this CD. Half the songs aren't worth the time. A couple of songs, however; are really good. I'm sure several of the songs will sell well, and Nickelback and their producers will make plenty off of what previously could have been a failed album

MacTraveller
Nov 20, 2008, 11:55 AM
The tally was over five billion songs sold on iTunes the last time I heard...what a disaster.

Here's the flaw in his logic. People are MUCH more willing to spend $2 to download the two songs they really want to hear, rather than spending $14 for a CD that has the two songs they really want to hear and ten songs that they don't care about. I would guess that for every one person willing to buy a CD for full price there are twenty or more people willing to spend a buck for a really great song. Maybe more like fifty or a hundred. It's idiots like this guy that force Apple into offering "Album Only" tracks. If the physical medium is practically dead, why continue to conform to the limitations of that medium?

5 billion iTunes songs downloaded/purchased means that THE PEOPLE are getting and buying what they want. Apple is simply catering to what THE PEOPLE want to buy.

In the end, the only thing that matters is what THE PEOPLE want. Who cares about greedy overpaid band managers? Their days are numbered, theirs is a career that is no longer necessary. Band managers were important during the old days of The Partridge Family. Nowadays, why do we even listen to them? Bands should just cut out these blood sucking "middlemen" and deal directly with a distributor like Apple.

Blue Velvet
Nov 20, 2008, 12:04 PM
Who cares about greedy overpaid band managers? Their days are numbered, theirs is a career that is no longer necessary.

Yeah right. Because all musicians are adept at business and have the time to negotiate tour details, distribution, marketing, security, contracts, media and press avails... the list goes on. The higher you climb, the more people you need around you.

Tenebrous
Nov 20, 2008, 01:42 PM
Pink Floyd = whatever. Ex-manager of Pink Floyd = double whatever. So you can't produce 2-3 songs that are good and then pack an album full of filler anymore? Boo hoo.

fluidedge
Nov 20, 2008, 02:08 PM
Pink Floyd = whatever. Ex-manager of Pink Floyd = double whatever. So you can't produce 2-3 songs that are good and then pack an album full of filler anymore? Boo hoo.

Ouch.

Best post i've read this week though :p

jodelli
Nov 20, 2008, 02:59 PM
I can think of very few albums that IMHO were good all the way through from start to finish. iTunes is a godsend, especially with it's preview feature.

nagromme
Nov 20, 2008, 10:14 PM
I agree that it would be frustrating as an artist to have just a piece of your work taken out of context.

However, the reality is, even if you force people to BUY the whole work (which I could understand) you won't force them to LISTEN to the whole work. People will always fire up their favorite individual tracks.

Heck, I even used to do that on vinyl where you have to bring the light up close and count the little rings!