whats with american citizens compedece in there countrys supremicy

[Mord]

I touched on this on the mac stoe in london thread but why is it that americans (not all but in genral) consider everywhere outside the u.s. to be poor run down crime riden non democratic place that have no influence at all

the average american is $20,000 in debt.

the european union is more economicaly powerfull than the us.

the majority of us soil is owned by japanese citizens

americas not that great in my humble opinion.

why do you think it is?

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Hector
(not all but in genral)


ha! now we can't accuse you of making the same sort of generalizations you just accused americans of making. :-)

the short answer is: many americans are ignorant

[Mord]

what can i say im english

[Dont Hurt Me]

Stereo typing it sounds to me. remember at least our Mars missions are working;)

[Mord]

funny you should say that because nasa has just run out of funds for it's mars missions.

it's not a stereotype as i speak from experience I know not all are like that but most of the americans i know are

[Desertrat]

Hector, consider a few items: For you, how many countries do you cross if you travel 2,000 or 3,000 miles? In the U.S., it's 3,000 miles from the east coast to the west coast. Many of us are "well-travelled" without ever leaving the country.

Another item is that throughout all this travel, one need but know one language to do anything from get a hotel room or a meal to closing a business deal.

A relatively few Americans get across the oceans, compared to Europeans who need cross only the Channel or the Med to find a completely different language or culture.

For many people the only knowledge of foreign ways comes from the TV. Very little coverage of newsworthy events focuses on downtown London or Paris. People see the trouble spots, most of which are indeed shabby and poor. Other programming shows "quaint" places and people, where thriving economies are not common.

As far as foreign ownership, that's mostly paper assets in the form of Treasury notes. Not a lot of real estate, actually. Some Japanese bought into real estate on a large money scale, but lost their shirts and sold out (Pebble Beach golf club; Rockefeller Center, e.g.).

Debt? :D Most of my friends and family have a history of only using debt as a tool. What others do their problem. Now, if you're referring to and concerned about government debt, all I can suggest is that you not own fiat money. There are many other and more secure holdings.

If there is a problem, it most likely lies in the notion that technical and military superiority somehow convey moral superiority.

:), 'Rat

[Neserk]

I'd say most PEOPLE are ignorant. It isn't something special to living in the United States. Not stupid, mind you. They just don't care about the truth too much.

What is great about the US? We can CHANGE things.

I'm not a super duper patriotic person. I consider myself a citizen of the world. I hate many things my government does. But I suspect that would be true no matter where I live.


This being said, I do realize that I make the most difference right where I live and breathe. So my goal? To change the world starting with HERE!

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by Hector
I touched on this on the mac stoe in london thread but why is it that americans (not all but in genral) consider everywhere outside the u.s. to be poor run down crime riden non democratic place that have no influence at all
And "us Americans" are the ones who are accused of being arrogant.


the average american is $20,000 in debt.

the european union is more economicaly powerfull than the us.

the majority of us soil is owned by japanese citizens

Please provide us with some facts to back this up. Thank you.



americas not that great in my humble opinion.

why do you think it is?
Europe is jealous of the U.S. thats why. Its the typical, we used to be the big kids on the playground, but now some new game came and he's all popular so we have to hate him, even though he helped us out multiple times.

Now, I'm not saying the U.S. is perfect. Historically we have done some pretty not so nice things. Then again Europe was doing them for hundreds of years longer than we were.

And I'm not saying I love our President (I voted for the other guy, and will again in a couple months, whoo hoo!) but it could be worse, I could live in France (blatant attack on
religious freedoms (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/12/17/france.headscarves/index.html) anyone?)

I think most nations like to have a sense of pride and think the country they live in is the better one. Otherwise why would they live there?

I love the United States for so many reasons, but thats not to say I don't have complaints, and its not to say I don't like other countries as well. Heck I plan on living in Japan for a year and I'm thrilled. But thats beside the point. I guess the real questions to answer are:

1) Why do Americans like America so much?

2) Why do foreigners hate America so much?

The two are actually closely related, and to find the answer we have to take a trip back in time:

1700's
Europe is the dominant world power. Various European nations have vast world spanning empires. French is the acknowledged language of international relations, much like English is today. Touting their cultural supremacy, European nations like England, France, and Spain are busy trying to make the rest of the world like them. This is not a new phenomenon, its how world powers always behave. Things are good for Europe. Then something happens that will forever change the shape of the world.

1776
An upstart little collection of colonies in the new world gets sick of being run by a bunch or guys from accross an ocean who have no connections with local issues. So they rebel. Now rebellions are nothing new, but rebelling against the most powerful millitary empire at the time isn't exactly a wise survival move in the eyes of most people. Except a funny thing happens. They win. They kick the british's butt (with a little help from the French) and establish a unique form of government that gives the people a more direct voice in their government than ever before.

This little revolution sparks a world wide shift in power. Suddenly nations begin to realize that they don't need to be part of some vast world spanning empire. Even France has a revolution and implements a constitution based largely of off the US constitution.

And that is reason #1 why Europeans don't like America, we knocked them off their perch as the leaders of the world.

Now America is perfectly content to NOT be leaders of the world, after a little bit of continental expansion we're pretty much set (although this comes at the expense of the Native Americans, so its not without its problems). We in fact DON'T WANT to be involved in Europes problems.

But things never work out the way you want them to.

1917
Three years into WWI the US's attempt at neutrality fails misearbly. Now we were happilly selling weapons to both sides, but Germany didn't like that, so we declared War on them and the rest is history. The allies are victorious and Wilson pushes for the creation of a League of Nations to prevent further war. The Europeans however don't make it easy. Doing things they way they have always done they exact HUGE reparations from Germany and its allies, crippling their economies and setting the stage for Hitlers rise to power. Disgusted with the Treaty of Versailles the US doesn't back the League and it fails.

Fast forward to:
1938

Following Hitler's meteoric rise to power Europe is at war....AGAIN. Once again the US tries to stay out of it, but that never happens. So after France surrenders yet again, and everyone but England is pretty much beaten, the US enters the war and sends thousands of our young men to die to protect Europe, who are in a war because they just had to have retribution against Germany in the first place. This time things are different.
The Allies are again victorious, but rather than crippling Germany (and Japan) again the US rebuilds them, in fact we help rebuild all of Europe. We don't make them colonies of the U.S. We help them become productive soveriegn nations. In fact Germany and Japan are two of the MOST succesful industrialized nations today.

See thats a reason why I like America, we don't do things to expand our own power alone, we do things to help people to. Yes its sometimes in our best interests, but if you can help yourself and help the other guy, sounds like a great deal don't you think?

So to make a long story short, the U.S. has basically spent the last 100 years cleaning up after Europes messes (Vietnam, Korea, the Middle East). Maybe thats why we feel some pride in our country.

I get sick of people blaming the US for being the worlds policeman. We are the worlds policeman because the world put us there. WE DIDN'T WANT TO BE.

Now not all the things we have done have been done well. Vietnam was run by politicians and turned into a huge quagmire, but only after the French lost control in the first place. And this latest war in Iraq (while it has been beneficial in some ways) was entered into on a basis of lies.

Bottom line.

The world hates the U.S. for the following reasons
- We are succesful
- We are powerful
- We are young

Europe is jealous of us. They want the glory days when they were the center of the world. The problem is they showed that they can't handle it. I can gaurentee you that while the European leaders complained vocally about the US invasion of Iraq, they went home at the end of the day glad that somebody final did what needed to be done.

Frankly I think we should stand up to people like Sadaam more often. Its time to stop pussyfooting around this idea that people like him have the right to rule countries and we shouldn't get involved. We should, in every case get involved. Not because we should support our own interests, but because the people of those countries don't have anyone else to stand up for them. Its like walking by a school playground and not stopping a fight because you don't go to that school.

Let the world hate America. We will continue to support freedom rather than persecution (Chirac opposes the war and wants to limit relgious freedom, our President (I don't like him much) gets up and tells the country NOT to discrimate against muslims).

Should we have gone to war becuse of supposed WMD? No. Should we have gone to war because saddaam is a brutal dictator whos people have suffered because of him? Yes.

[Mord]

belive me we are not jelous of the us in any way shape or form.

look at the euro and the dollar I know whart curency i would rather have.


"Vietnam, Korea, the Middle East"

by cleaning up our "messes" you mean killing thousands of people fighting for there country, right.

if we hadent of stood up aginst hitler you wouldent have done so in our place, we saved the free world you cannot take our victory by giving some help at the end (though we did very much appreciate it).

what do you acctually like about the us that isent available anywhere elce?

free palistine

[D0ct0rteeth]

Originally posted by Krizoitz

Europe is jealous of the U.S. thats why. Its the typical, we used to be the big kids on the playground, but now some new game came and he's all popular so we have to hate him, even though he helped us out multiple times...


You are half right.. although I agree with some of what you say there is a complete other side of the story, in the way that america is portrayed and caters to the lowest common denomenator of greed and selfishness.

Although FDR and some other presidents led us in a manner that was concerned in a global peace it takes a very nieve person to believe that Bush has been concerned in anything similar. Although most American do want world peace and want a utopian society many politicans are concerned more and more about themselves, and thier corporate allies.

This is just as true in other countries.. the US is not the only country like this.. but we are so often under the microscope it is easy to point at bush, the carlisle group and our incompetent leadership again and again... then with enron and tyco this just reinforces the point. We dont look like leaders, but a bunch of arrogant jerks.. and thats just the beginning.

Until we start acting like a real country again, actually take care of our people and accept the responsobilies there will always be resentment. Obviously we cant make everyone happy, but we need to take the hints when there is a reason and truth behind it... not for anyone elses good or as a public relations move.. but just because its in our best interests to do so.

[numediaman]

"The world hates the U.S. for the following reasons
- We are succesful
- We are powerful
- We are young

Europe is jealous of us."

Gee, thanks Krizoitz for proving his point! Talk about arrogance.

But fess up Hector, who are you from, really? Do you type your responses drunk? or is English a second language? (which is fine, but I doubt you are English)

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by numediaman
"The world hates the U.S. for the following reasons
- We are succesful
- We are powerful
- We are young

Europe is jealous of us."

Gee, thanks Krizoitz for proving his point! Talk about arrogance.

But fess up Hector, who are you from, really? Do you type your responses drunk? or is English a second language? (which is fine, but I doubt you are English)

How is it arrogant? We are succesful, we have a strong economy and we have HUGE influence culturally. We ARE powerful, but unlike powerful nations in the past, we have done a pretty good job of NOT building world spanning empires because of it.

Don't get me wrong I think for the most part Europeans don't hate us in general, any more than Americans in general think the rest of the world is back water, not as good as we are. I LIKE Europe and Asia. What I get sick of is everyone accusing America of doing all these terrible things and forget that we do more good than bad AND we haven't done nearly the terrible stuff that the old world has been doing for HUNDREDS of years.

Its EASY to hate America, but just remember that France would be speaking German and the whole world might be speaking Russian if we hadn't done anything.

[whocares]

Originally posted by Krizoitz
Europe is jealous of the U.S. thats why. Its the typical, we used to be the big kids on the playground, but now some new game came and he's all popular so we have to hate him, even though he helped us out multiple times.

No. Most Europeans don't care.

This is a sterile thread topic because anyone who posts is going to come off looking like an arogant fool, whatever their country of citizenship. And that probably includes me, so please don't ban me :p

Let's all been "citizens of the world" (do I hate that expression) and forget where we come from. I think the "Location" field on user profiles should be limited to silly jokes or completely ridden with.

Anyway, everybody knows that little green people from Mars rule! Talking of which, does anyone remember that Mars mission that crashed on one of the poles because half the team was working in metric and the other half in imperial? Boy does the metric system suck! Or should I say, Boy does the imperial system suck!

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by Hector
look at the euro and the dollar I know whart curency i would rather have.
And for quite a while the Yen was stronger than the dollar, but America has an overall stronger economy because we have the raw materials AND the proccessing power. Europe as a continent might come close, Russia could probably out produce us if they had infrastructure.


"Vietnam, Korea, the Middle East"
by cleaning up our "messes" you mean killing thousands of people fighting for there country, right.

Yes, it wasn't done very well, but remember two things. First, we came in under the UN charter, so it was the ENTIRE UN's decision on those wars (obviously this current conflict doesn't count, I think alot of us think thats wrong). Second, the Europeans were the ones who had "colonized" those countries and started the killing in the first place.


if we hadent of stood up aginst hitler you wouldent have done so in our place, we saved the free world you cannot take our victory by giving some help at the end (though we did very much appreciate it).

You're kidding right? You call allowing Hitler to take Austria and Poland standing up to him? You call France's bending over and surrendering at the drop of a hate standing up to him? Now I admit the Brits faught DAM hard against Hitler, but historians pretty much agree that GB wouldn't have been able to hold out much longer. Surrounded, no supplies, their allies fallen, you can only stand up so long. And lets not forget the fact that it was Europes blundering that allowed Hitler to rise to power in the first place. So yes we claim the victory. But instead of doing what Europe had done the last time, we REBUILT your entire continent.
What other country that you know of has spent MILLIONS of dollars like we did in the Marshall Plan?


what do you acctually like about the us that isent available anywhere elce?

I like the patriotism. I like freedom, yes you can get some of those elsewhere but not as much as here. European countries can control their press alot more than we can. Freedom of religion? Try telling that to all the Muslim's in France. Opportunity? The American Dream still exists, its why people continue to come to this country by droves. While I will be the first to admit that the white male still has an upper hand here, you can't find any country in the world with more ethnic and cultural and religious diversity.

Now I am sorry that I said all Europeans were jealous, thats not true, many Europeans and Asians, etc are very proud of their countries and they have a right to be. England abolished slavery before we did, and that was good of them. France has a great history of culture, and without their help the American revolution might not have gone as well. I could go on. I really am sorry that I took such a bad tone about my world neighbors, it was somewhat arrogant and I do apologize.

I don't apologize for standing up for America. I am sick and tired of hearing how terrible and horrible America is, but no one ever taking the time to thank us for the good things we do.

You know, its funny. You claim that we were wrong for not standing up to Hitler. Ok, we should have. No we have a guy who is paralelling Hitler in a lot of ways (Hussein) and we DO stand up to him and people hate us for it.

People accuse us of imperialism, yet we never ever try to set up these countries as colonies, we try and help them become independent.

People accuse us of doing things for money, yet France opposed the Iraqi war precisely because they had just made new oil deals with Saddam.

People are going to keep hating America as long as we are the only super power. Before they could hate Russia, now they just have us. But hate us as long as much as you want, you know that the MINUTE you are in crisis, be it terrorist, war, disease, etc. we will be the FIRST ones their to help you, we will bring money, and food, and supplies. If you need to be defended we will send our boys to die, just like we did in WWI and WWII and Vietnam and Korea. We will stand up to tyranny like we did in the Cold War. We will rebuild nations, even if they went to war against us. We will do what is right, sometimes make mistakes, but try and fix them and try and become a better country because of it. So keep on hating us, we will keep on helping you.

[Desertrat]

numediaman, are you unaware that the "jealousy" issue has been discussed for several decades? It was rather a hot topic during DeGaulle's reign...Heck, you can go back to WW II, when some in England griped that US GIs were "overpaid, overfed, oversexed and over here."

"We are succesful
- We are powerful
- We are young"

It seems to me that we did succeed in many ways. Just from the standpoint of goods and services, our 6% of the world's population produces right at one-third of the world's total economic activity. Japan is second, at roughly one-sixth.

It is not even arguable that we have become the only superpower.

As a nation, we are indeed young when compared to Europe. However, our democratic system is the world's longest lived, at present. Older than England, older than France.

Sorry, but I see no arrogance in stating fact. That said, it's uncool for a champion to be snotty in his behavior...

:), 'Rat

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Krizoitz
...
we REBUILT your entire continent
...


You can't be serious. That's an amazing over-generalization.

This whole, "we did more than you" game gets tired very fast. Are France's contributions to America's liberty efforts to be discounted because they were unable to hold "La Ligne Maginot"? Are Europe's explorations of the world to be forgotten because of colonization and slavery?

Almost every country has had its high and low points. We all need to get off our high horses and get on with improving the planet...together.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Almost every country has had its high and low points. We all need to get off our high horses and get on with improving the planet...together.

Tough to do when you think everyone else is jealous and has a chip on their shoulder.

I've heard many people try to say if you opened all the borders in the world everyone would come to America.

But right here in this very forum a few months back were posted the results of an exhaustive worldwide BBC poll that proved otherwise. A vast majority of people from a majority of the nations around the world would rather stay in their own country than move to America. Americans of course thought 90% of them would say that they'd move here.

I really wonder where this misconception comes from. The bulk of people who seem to be banging down the doors to get in to the US are Mexican or Carribean. Why do we incorrectly assume everyone from everywhere is trying?

[zimv20]

Originally posted by pseudobrit

I've heard many people try to say if you opened all the borders in the world everyone would come to America.

i'd move to london

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by zimv20
i'd move to london

I was thinking Montreal. Or the west of Ireland. Or the Caymans. Or Australia. I'd have to try them all.

[Mord]

Originally posted by numediaman
"The world hates the U.S. for the following reasons
- We are succesful
- We are powerful
- We are young

Europe is jealous of us."

Gee, thanks Krizoitz for proving his point! Talk about arrogance.

But fess up Hector, who are you from, really? Do you type your responses drunk? or is English a second language? (which is fine, but I doubt you are English)

I am english and i was drunk when i posted this topic Im also deslexic

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by Hector
free palistine


First, its spelled Palestine.

Second, it hasn't existed since Biblical times.

[edesignuk]

My god, this thread is such an amazing waste of everyone's time...no one can "win" or come out looking good for what is said here :rolleyes:

[Desertrat]

Nowhere is it written that a thread MUST get ugly. :D

Hector brought up a good question, and as are many such, there's as much interpretation of events as there is fact. Perception, etc. A calm effort to present one's opposing view is not all that difficult...

As far as the desirability of living in the US, remember we have over eight million illegal immigrants here. Sure, the majority are from Mexico, with the next largest group from Latin America. (And just what does that say about the systems "back there"?) However, newspaper reports taken from Border Patrol data show a notable number of people who have paid to be brought here from eastern European countries. Escapees from China are not an insignificant number, either, for that matter.

All through the 1970s and 1980s there was a very large number of students from India who worked on degrees in computer science. Through the early 1980s NONE of them returned to India; they either started their own IT businesses here, or got employment here.

And it seems like half the motels in the US are owned by people from India. At check-in, you better love the smell of curry. :D

I guess one of the things which has kept me reasonably content, overall, with the behavior of the U.S. is that we aren't interested in any sort of empire in the classic sense. I guess you could stretch it and label our efforts an "economic empire", but we're happy for others to make a profit from our own efforts.

No nation is perfect; no person is perfect. Heck, I don't expect to see perfection, not even when I shave.

:D, 'Rat

[Mord]

what would like to know is why americans are so patriotic it just seems a bit weird.

I was in america in the summer when someone was outraged that i used a dime to open a can of paint he wasent a crazy gun slinging republican he was an average looking guy.

also wtf is with making children sulute the flag.

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by Hector
what would like to know is why americans are so patriotic it just seems a bit weird.

I was in america in the summer when someone was outraged that i used a dime to open a can of paint he wasent a crazy gun slinging republican he was an average looking guy.

also wtf is with making children sulute the flag.

The dime thing just sounds kinda weird, I use coins to do stuff all the time if they are handy.

As for the flag, its supposed to remind us of what our country stands for and for all the people who died to protect it. Sometimes people forget or just salute because of habit, but I can tell you that I never ever hear the national anthem without remembering people like my grandfather who faught in wars to protect my freedoms.

[combustible]

i believe it is the cultural imperialism that get's the rest of the world down on the u.s.
the glamorisation of greed and grease. it wins everybody over. our countries are swimming in the superficial stink america excretes, and eating it up.
it is the ability that the country has to successfully sell you something that has no worth beyond it's own spin.
ideas, products, philosophies.
it is a worldwide invasion, aided by "free trade" and meeting no opposition.
so maybe we deserve it then. the culture and the individuality of nations swept aside.
it does seem to be the nature of people, or at least society, to fall in step with the lowest common denominator.

just to make it clear; i am not saying americans are bad people. all that i have met, and seen when i was there, seemed very nice. i do not blame the people.

[Neserk]

Originally posted by Hector


I was in america in the summer when someone was outraged that i used a dime to open a can of paint he wasent a crazy gun slinging republican he was an average looking guy.'



That is very odd. Never heard of such a thing.



also wtf is with making children sulute the flag.

Don't even get me started on it... ;) I think it is ridiculous that children are forced to say the pledge when they have no clue what it means...

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by combustible
i believe it is the cultural imperialism that get's the rest of the world down on the u.s.
the glamorisation of greed and grease. it wins everybody over. our countries are swimming in the superficial stink america excretes, and eating it up.
it is the ability that the country has to successfully sell you something that has no worth beyond it's own spin.
ideas, products, philosophies.
it is a worldwide invasion, aided by "free trade" and meeting no opposition.
so maybe we deserve it then. the culture and the individuality of nations swept aside.
it does seem to be the nature of people, or at least society, to fall in step with the lowest common denominator.

just to make it clear; i am not saying americans are bad people. all that i have met, and seen when i was there, seemed very nice. i do not blame the people.

First, cultures change, big cultures affect small cultures, and vice versa, there is no such thing as a pure culture in this world, it is all affected by everything around it. French culture, English culture, Japanese culture, even Australian culture, all these things influence american culture and we in turn do the same. I don't understand this idea of cultural imperialism. Its not like we are going out and conquering a country and making them be like us. Its not like we are going around and forcing people to speak English, like another group is forcing people to speak French in Canada. Heck we don't even HAVE a national language, most other countries do. Its not like we are forcing you to eat at american style restaurants anymore than I am forced to eat at Italian or Mexican restaurants. People choose to support the things that they think are best. If the world hates American culture so much why do they support it and imitate it? Why is McDonalds so darn succesful, or Disney? Because people like it, not because its "American" but because its just good. Its not a unique thing either, look at some of the U.S. most succesful tv shows of late. Survivor is a foreign import, Iron Chef is Japanese and a HUGE success. I'm pretty sure Queer Eye was something done elsewhere first too. Millionaire and Weakest Link. And thats just a few. The difference is we aren't afraid of new things, we love new things. Its why we get along so well with Japan. We can take these new things and make them our own, we aren't threatened by them we adopt them and fit them to our style. Heck the Croc Hunter is a HUGE celebrity here in the states, and hes quite clearly not American, but we love him anyway. Why? Because we love foreign stuff, we love new things. Don't be afraid of it, embrace it. Take what you like from America, add a little bit of hometown style and you get the best of both worlds (non-hamburger sellling McD's in India for example). Don't hate us because we are succesful, as long as we aren't stomping people down (cough cough BILL GATES) to get there.

[Desertrat]

Funny you should mention patriotism. Some of the most patriotic writings I've ever read were from Rudyard Kipling.

As far as the Pledge of Allegiance, it's an attempt to inculcate a sense of belonging to something larger than just yourself and your immediate group. You gotta remember that our flag is a symbol of what we want to be, not what we are. It's the symbol of an idea of striving to do better, to be better. We may never get there, but the effort over the decades and centuries is what's important. The journey...

One thing that folks outside the U.S. find upsetting is how much we wash our dirty laundry in public. That's the advantage of our First Amendment, whether or not the subject matter is proper dinnertime conversation. We have no restrictions on the press such as is the case in England and elsewhere.

Funny how all this goes, though. Some 50 years back I was happily getting blithered in bars along the waterfront in Marseilles. I walked into one joint, and somebody sneered about the sacre Yanqui. Sez I, "I'm no Yankee; I'm from Texas." Well, to make a long story short, they got me drunker'n a rat, telling lies about cowboys and indians. :D

Calvados and Coca Cola can give one a serious hangover, I've noticed...

hey, the world's just a big old playground, meant for having fun. We just a few hostile idiots causing trouble over trivial ego stuff, that takes the fun out of a lot of neat places.

'Rat

[diamond geezer]

Originally posted by Desertrat
Funny you should mention patriotism. Some of the most patriotic writings I've ever read were from Rudyard Kipling.

'Rat

Hardly surprising, Kipling was rather racist and believed in the innate superiority of the British race.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by diamond geezer
Hardly surprising, Kipling was rather racist and believed in the innate superiority of the British race.

I already don't like him. (I'm Irish)

[Desertrat]

pseudobrit, look in "Soldiers Three"; is "Mulvaney" not an Irish name? :)

Kiopling considered the culture of Great Britain to be superior, not the race. He considered it a responsibility to show the rest of the world why. The "White Man's Burden" had to do with culture, not race per se. That there was racism on the part of people involved in this "spread of culture" is another matter.

If you really want racism, go to Japan or China...

One branch of my own family tree is the Witherspoon clan, who moved from Scotland to Ireland to New Jersey, some 240 years back. After pledging his life and his sacred honor, the Rev. John became president of what's now Princeton...

:), Rat

[Mord]

Originally posted by Krizoitz
First, its spelled Palestine.

Second, it hasn't existed since Biblical times.

oh just because some idiot wrote a book about the placeit automaticall gives isralis the right to kick people out of there homes because "god said it is rightfully thairs" relgion sickens me

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by Hector
oh just because some idiot wrote a book about the placeit automaticall gives isralis the right to kick people out of there homes because "god said it is rightfully thairs" relgion sickens me

What a healthy and fair attitude. First I didn't say anything about their right to the land or not. Palestine as a nation hasn't existed since Biblical times, biblical times being a historic reference, just like one might say the Renaissance or the Middle Ages. The area you are referring to as Palestine has been part of many nations, including Arab nations such as Jordan who had the opportunity to create a Palestinian home land. In fact the use of the term Palestinian as a group didn't come about until AFTER the creation of Israel. The people didn't even consider themselves Palestinian then.

So how do you free a country that hasn't existed for HUNDREDS of years? Its not like Tibet where the nation allready existed. If you want to blame someone for the Israeli/Palestinian mess other than those two groups who seem hell bent on NEVER agreeing (both sides assassinated their OWN leaders who were working for peace) blame it on Britain and the UN who created Israel in the first place. Next time try not looking for a fight, especially with someone who knows the whole story.

[Mord]

I think the un and briten were stupid to give israle to the jews the point is that these people have lived in the arab world for centurys and the only hope of a nation of there own was taken from them when the isralis occupied there land this discusts me.

Arial Sharone was a war crimnal he has killed innocent people.

suicide bombers are no more a terrorist than he

my last post was a little harsh and i apologise for that.

dont get me wrong i dont love england or europe I am just wandering whats so great about america.

your all going on about all this great freedom democracy and history ect.

all that stuff dose not make america great compared to other places stuff like low crime, low poverty, gun control, a fair govoment america has none of these things

combustible i agree with, you people i know hate america because of there crap cultural invasion i would rather go down a street with lots of different coffee shops rather than three starbucks your fliping chain stores wiped our indipentents of the map this is bad because it is creating monopolys and over time the product they are sell in weather coffee or computer software gets crapier and crapier i dont blame america entirely it is the fault of the public for being so stupid tro consume all this crap.

the polution is also a big one america has the highist poution output in the world (stupid SUV's wtf do you need a huge car for, when i see them they are never full only one person is driving it:().

the fact that america makes us eat all there crap with "free trade" pissis me off.

[billyboy]

According to the Tao, patriotism is a sure sign of the decay of society. It was said 5000 years ago and its a pretty accurate observation. Just to make the point of the destructive power of patriotism , tell me this doesnt annoy you

I really don't like anyone saying they are proud to be American or British or whatever nationality they reckon they are. They were born on a piece of geological rock and the rest is just man made political ever changing nonsense. One day you are Mexican, but a few years later, after a political amnesty you are somehow American - but your parents over the border are still Mexican and in your own mind you are Mexican. One day you are Bosnian, the next day you kill your neighbour because some politician says it is the thing to do to people whose parents happened to be Serbian. Patriotism is something to be proud of - not.

Patriotism is bull, and the less you fill your mind with notions of your country the more likely you are to actually contribute something to the good of the human species as a whole. Non patriotism is a massive demand, and by and large, people cant do it. The Tao was right on.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Hector
I think the un and briten were stupid to give israle to the jews the point is that these people have lived in the arab world for centurys and the only hope of a nation of there own was taken from them when the isralis occupied there land this discusts me.

all that stuff dose not make america great compared to other places stuff like low crime, low poverty, gun control, a fair govoment america has none of these things

the polution is also a big one america has the highist poution output in the world (stupid SUV's wtf do you need a huge car for, when i see them they are never full only one person is driving it:().

Spelling checkers are your friend, try to use it. If you are indeed from England/United Kingdom, aren't you supposed to be using English correctly? Sheesh. The title to this thread was painful to read.

If you read your history, the United Kingdom abstained voting in UN Resolution 181. If you read your history, the Middle East was the home of the Ottoman empire, since the 16th century, and it took the defeat of the Ottoman empire by the British in WW1 for the area tp change hands. Sure, the territories of the former Ottoman empire were promised by the British to the coalition of Arab tribes, but it took the French to convince the British to renege on that deal (see Sykes-Picot agreement). After that, it was the Balfour declaration, where the Jews got involved. None of this has anything to do with the Americans. Remember, the Americans were the ones that kicked the British back to England. :D

If you also look, America has a low crime rate when compared to the United Kingdom (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902). When comparing numbers, you have to compare crime rates, or percentages. Since the United States has more population that the United Kingdom, you cannot compare numbers of crime incidences. You have to compare crime rates. If you have a country that has 10 people in it, and 5 people were robbed, thats a 50% crime rate. Another country that has 100 people in it, that has 6 people robbed has a lower crime rate, 6%, than the other country.

As to SUVs and pollution, the USA uses the most percentage of energy produced in the world. It also produces the most goods and services in the world, so the energy used vs goods produced goes hand in hand. You can't make an omellet without breaking a few eggs. Finally, the reason people have SUVs is because they have the freedom to choose what to purchase. Freedom might be a hard concept for you to understand. Americans are citizens. Britons are subjects. :p

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by combustible
i believe it is the cultural imperialism that get's the rest of the world down on the u.s.
the glamorisation of greed and grease. it wins everybody over. our countries are swimming in the superficial stink america excretes, and eating it up.

just to make it clear; i am not saying americans are bad people. all that i have met, and seen when i was there, seemed very nice. i do not blame the people.

I think that you are misplacing the blame. Last I checked, it takes two parties to complete a trade, a seller and a buyer.

If you, the potential buyer, decide not to do a trade with the potential seller, then nothing happens. So, you cannot blame the United States for selling stuff, if you buy it.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Hector
what would like to know is why americans are so patriotic it just seems a bit weird.

I was in america in the summer when someone was outraged that i used a dime to open a can of paint he wasent a crazy gun slinging republican he was an average looking guy.

also wtf is with making children sulute the flag.

Maybe you should have used a quarter. You get more leverage that way. Dimes are one of the smaller coins. In fact, its the smallest of the bunch. Pennies are larger than dimes.

Maybe the guy was just outraged at how you are not using your noggin, and picking the best tool for the job.

(BTW, not all gun slingers are crazy, and not all of them are republicans.)

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Desertrat
I guess one of the things which has kept me reasonably content, overall, with the behavior of the U.S. is that we aren't interested in any sort of empire in the classic sense. I guess you could stretch it and label our efforts an "economic empire", but we're happy for others to make a profit from our own efforts.

Hehehe... my thoughts too.

About the one thing that the USA wants is to trade with other people. I guess if we were a Star Trek race, we would be the Ferengi. :D

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by billyboy
According to the Tao, patriotism is a sure sign of the decay of society. It was said 5000 years ago and its a pretty accurate observation. Just to make the point of the destructive power of patriotism , tell me this doesnt annoy you

I really don't like anyone saying they are proud to be American or British or whatever nationality they reckon they are. They were born on a piece of geological rock and the rest is just man made political ever changing nonsense. One day you are Mexican, but a few years later, after a political amnesty you are somehow American - but your parents over the border are still Mexican and in your own mind you are Mexican. One day you are Bosnian, the next day you kill your neighbour because some politician says it is the thing to do to people whose parents happened to be Serbian. Patriotism is something to be proud of - not.

Patriotism is bull, and the less you fill your mind with notions of your country the more likely you are to actually contribute something to the good of the human species as a whole. Non patriotism is a massive demand, and by and large, people cant do it. The Tao was right on.

I am going to have to disagree with you completely. Patriotism is a great thing to have. It can help unite people in great things. It is way people sacrifice their lives to defend things like freedom of speech. My my grandfathers generation sacrificed their lives because they believed in America and what it stood for. If thats what patriotism does than I'll take it any day.

[Rower_CPU]

Anything taken to extremes is a bad thing. It seems that patriotism becomes jingoism very easily these days.

[Desertrat]

It might be a bit obscure if one hasn't read much of Heinlein's works, but I've always liked his comment to the effect that "Patriotism means women and children first."

Patriotism is not just about one's delineated political subdivision. It includes family and friends, one's community, and then the larger state and nation. A big amorphous blob of "All of it" and including warts and all.

:), 'Rat

[billyboy]

Originally posted by Krizoitz
I am going to have to disagree with you completely. Patriotism is a great thing to have. It can help unite people in great things. It is way people sacrifice their lives to defend things like freedom of speech. My my grandfathers generation sacrificed their lives because they believed in America and what it stood for. If thats what patriotism does than I'll take it any day.

Well there you go, illustrating the limits of patriotism. You win at the expense of someone else. Very appealing!

Think on a more global scale and maybe just think of the difference between Open source and proprietary. Open source supporters have one aim, to make something good available to all, literally all. Proprietary (patriotism) is about limiting choice.

Be patriotic if you like, but it will not sustain your politically defined lump of rock indefinitely.

[Desertrat]

billyboy, you're taking an abstract view, and there's a big problem. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but there's a factor that ruins your idea when talking about the world as it is. I've often thought of it as the human nature factor.

Few countries, anywhere, have governments which are really efficient; which can smoothly govern. What cooperation exists derives largely from patriotism.

There is a physical limit to how big a bite you can take, whether it's steak or "thinking global". When it's already difficult to deal with problems at home, and problems elsewhere increase your own, the time just does not exist to think global--at least not in any benevolent sense.

It's obvious that the word "patriotism" means different things to different people. You bring in the idea of "proprietary", whereas most folks don't.

:), 'Rat

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by billyboy
Well there you go, illustrating the limits of patriotism. You win at the expense of someone else. Very appealing!

Think on a more global scale and maybe just think of the difference between Open source and proprietary. Open source supporters have one aim, to make something good available to all, literally all. Proprietary (patriotism) is about limiting choice.

Be patriotic if you like, but it will not sustain your politically defined lump of rock indefinitely.

Win at the expense of someone else? What are you talking about? They defend our country in a time of war, this wasn't a war of conquest, it was a war to stop Adolf Hitler. You are going to tell me that standing up and defending not only our country but others was a bad thing?

[mactastic]

Just to be clear, Hitler used patriotism to justify and promote his actions too. Patriotism can be good, but it can also be bad. So you are both right. And wrong.

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by mactastic
Just to be clear, Hitler used patriotism to justify and promote his actions too. Patriotism can be good, but it can also be bad. So you are both right. And wrong.

I can agree to that. I just disagreed with the argument that it was inherently wrong/not beneficial.

[billyboy]

In total contrast to today, the philosopher 5000 years ago saw that if you don't cling to something, ie your "country", you need not be fussed about taking measures to protect it, and if something isnt worth protecting, it presumably has no value, so to likeminded people it cant be worth invading. That leaves everyone free.

Unfortunately, since time immemoriam the non-patriot ideal seems to have been a little out of place and here we are, in this day and age, in a situation where society has spun patriotism as a big time positive yet people have grown ever more fearful and people are materialistic and people congregate around "a flag" to feel safe and protect their interests and end up building armies and warring and blah blah blah.

Although sounding a bit off the wall, impractical non-patriotism does not mean living patriotism is something to be proud of.

[pseudobrit]

Gather 'round you young rebels

and list' while I sing,

for the love of one's country

is a terrible thing

It banishes fear

with the speed of a flame

And makes us all part of

the patriot game

-- Traditional Irish Republican

[Sparky's]

The average american is $20,000 in debt.
close call at least for me, I think my total debt is about $7,000. Based on a household income of $75,000 gross.

The european union is more economicaly powerfull than the us.


Fact: the US unions control only 14% of the nations work force. Chew on that

the majority of us soil is owned by japanese citizens

If you'd done your homework you would have found out that the majority of real esate own by foreign interest is:
1. England
2. France
3. (not sure on this one) Sweeden
and I believe that Japan was actually about 7th or 8th of which most of that was on the west coast.

americas not that great in my humble opinion.

why do you think it is?

Well for someone who can't spell America properly I think maybe we are as great as we think. We sure as hell kicked your ass out of "North America" (though I admit it did take the help of the French to do it) but who's counting?

[Spizzo]

Originally posted by Sparky's

Fact: the US unions control only 14% of the nations work force. Chew on that


I am pretty sure he was refering to the European Union as an Alliance of all the countries, and not like the AFL-CIO (workers unions).

[Desertrat]

The European Union is more economically powerful than the U.S.? Er, uh, hardly.

The world total of goods and services is some $32 trillion. The GDP of the U.S. is around $10 trillion. Of Japan, around $5 trillion. The total of the entire rest of the world is around $17 trillion. That's the EU, China, OPEC, etc...

In the FWIW department, China is the largest market for Gucci, Rolex and Mercedes. China produces more home appliances than any other country--refrigerators, stoves, etc. EU folks oughta quit looking west and try east, instead.

:), 'Rat

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Anything taken to extremes is a bad thing. It seems that patriotism becomes jingoism very easily these days.

You are mostly right. But being 'extreme' in saying anything taken to extremes is just as bad. :D

Besides, here is a goodie from ol' Barry...
I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!

And here's another goodie from another ol' Barry...

[Aahh]
[Ooh baby]
[Ooh baby]
Keep on
[My baby]
Keep on doing it
Right on [oh oh oh]
Right on doing it
[We get it together]
Baby keep on
[Oh We get it together baby]
Right on
Keep on doing it
[And I'll give you baby]
[All that I get]
Now my baby keep on
[I swear we get it together baby]
Keep on , keep on
:D :D :D

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by billyboy
Unfortunately, since time immemoriam the non-patriot ideal seems to have been a little out of place and here we are, in this day and age, in a situation where society has spun patriotism as a big time positive yet people have grown ever more fearful and people are materialistic and people congregate around "a flag" to feel safe and protect their interests and end up building armies and warring and blah blah blah.

I'm sure that there were some non-patriot ideal practicing tribes/civilizations in all of history. You just don't read much about them after the Mongol hordes got through with them. :p

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stuart Mill