2nd Generation iPod Touch Faster than iPhone

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/11/22/2nd-generation-ipod-touch-faster-than-iphone/)

Mobile developer Handheld Games Corp reported to TouchArcade.com (http://toucharcade.com/2008/11/23/2nd-generation-ipod-touch-faster-than-iphone/) that performance of their 3D TouchSports Tennis (http://toucharcade.com/2008/11/22/touchsports-tennis-from-handheld-games-corp/) game [App Store, $4.99 (http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=296596304&mt=8)] is noticeably different between models of iPhones and iPod touches. Their 3D tennis game (video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-Imj5f7tI&fmt=18)) seems to particularly challenge the 3D hardware on the iPhone and iPod touch.


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2008/11/23/100954-tennis_425.jpg
TouchSports Tennis

In part, the differences stem from the fact that the 2nd Generation iPod Touch had its processor quietly boosted to 532MHz. Meanwhile, the iPhone 3G, Original iPhone and 1st Generation iPod Touch run at 412MHz. However, the differences must extend beyond this simple change, as there seem to be substantial performance differences between the similarly-clocked models as well.

From Handheld Games Corp's experience, the 2nd Generation iPod touch is the fastest model "by far", followed by the iPhone 3G, iPhone and finally the 1st Generation iPod touch lagging behind (at least with respect to 3D gaming). Due to these differences, Handheld Games Corp's CEO does not recommend anyone interested in gaming to even consider buying a used 1st Generation iPod touch.

Article Link: 2nd Generation iPod Touch Faster than iPhone (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/11/22/2nd-generation-ipod-touch-faster-than-iphone/)

[rockinrocker]

hmmm, never would have expected this...

[odedia]

I remember how surprised I was when I first played with a 3G iPhone - The performance felt noticeably faster (with firmware 2.1) compared to my first gen iPhone.

[solipsism]

hmmm, never would have expected this...

i didn't expect such an extreme boost from 412MHz to 523Mhz, but a bump was expected seeing as how the very first 2nd gen. iPod Touch commercial was focused on gaming. Apple thinks it can take a chuck out of the PSP and DS market. We'll see next year.

[840quadra]

Interesting this is posted and discovered this late after the release of these devices. I have had both Touch models, and thought I had noticed a bit of faster performance from the G2 over the G1. The G2 didn't seem to stutter as much when switching from portrait to landscape mode in Safari, iTunes, and swipes album with a bit more of a fluid (smooth) transition.

http://forums.macrumors.com/image.php?u=47064&dateline=1165206282&type=profile

[commander.data]

Well the clock speed differences Apple could really stabilize by releasing a firmware update that upclocks the slower models to 532MHz. I believe the PSP's CPU was similarly downclocked at launch, but a later firmware allowed it to upclock on demand. Apple should do something similar since they always claim the advantage of their platform is consistently between all the models.

Does the 2nd generation iPod Touch have shorter battery life than the 1st gen Touch? And was the battery size changed? If the 2nd gen Touch can have a higher clocked CPU and have similar battery life that'll be fairly impressive.

I wonder if the GPU has similarly seen a clock speed boost.

[millz]

Could be more available RAM on the iPod (per application) as well.

I have noticed that the iPhone appears to allow apps less RAM to run in, probably because it has more background tasks running than the iPod.

[Beric]

How interesting!

I'm just wondering what significant performance boosts the next gen iPhone and iPod touch will have. Such boosts will make it clear if the product will become a full-fledged PDA (or even a mini-laptop), or just remain a small entertainment device. We really don't have enough to go on with just 2 models in each lineup.

[slu]

When can we expect all the 3G iPhone users to start complaining? :rolleyes:

[Peace]

Just goes to show Apple considers the iPod Touch a gaming platform and the iPhone a phone that can do games.;)

[alhasa]

oh yeah! something for us 2G iPod touch owners to brag about :D

i kinda always suspected this cos my sister's 1G iPhone was always a bit laggy in comparison.

[Teddy's]

When can we expect all the 3G iPhone users to start complaining? :rolleyes:

And then all iPod Touch users will complain when they have to pay for the 3.0 update.

So, you see, it is like a cycle.

[JG271]

Interesting... i guess they're really optimizing the touch for games? I'm seeing quite a few iPod touch adverts on the TV lately, highlighting its game features.

[Chrysaor]

This screws up everyone.
Developers need to develop and test for different devices. Customer doesn't know how well the game is supposed to run on their device.
This is why Xbox and PS doesn't speed bump with hardware revisions, but they make it cooler, quieter, slimmer etc, so everyone can have the same game experience.

[plumbingandtech]

and if apple bumped the speed of the iphone via software today, it would take about 10 seconds for the whiners to complain that their battery life is dropping.

:rolleyes:

BTW, 2.2 kicks butt in the battery dept. It REALLY improves it on mine at least. Very noticeable.

[PsykX]

I was pretty sure everything was faster than my iPod Touch 1st gen, because it's lagging really bad sometimes ...

Yeah, that's quite a boost ;)

I'm planning on getting possibily the iPhone v4 which should be out in like 8 months.. I'll need a better job next summer ;)

[autumn]

Apple just underclocked the iPhone 3G for battery reason. They could release a firmware later to upclock it.

As a matter of fact, after 2.2 my iPhone 3G felt a lot smoother, quicker overall and I don't know whether this has to do software improvement or hardware. Maybe a little of both.

I've heard the iPhone CPU is capable of running at least 620 mhz.

[iMouse]

Considering that the processors in both the iPhone and iPod Touch are downclocked from the optimal 600 MHz to save battery life, Apple has some room to grow as far as expanding the hardware capabilities of at least the processor.

Keep in mind that like we typically see in Macs with varying processor speeds, graphics performance can vary ever so slightly as well. If Apple chooses to boost us all to a higher clock speed in future firmware updates, it is likely we will see faster graphics as well.

[AppleMatt]

:( I can't help but think that in the future it won't be so simple to buy apps - some will run on some phones/pods but not others.

:(

AppleMatt

[KindredMAC]

There you go iPod touch users who bitch and whine and complain every time a software upgrade comes out and they have to pay a little extra for it compared to iPhone owners.... you finally have an "up" on us.

This probably isn't good enough for the babies anyways......

[Schtumple]

Just goes to show Apple considers the iPod Touch a gaming platform and the iPhone a phone that can do games.;)

Be nice if games had requirements though, like certain 3D intensive games couldn't be played on the older iPod touchs/iPhones, rather than let the people who originally bought them have crap performance...

Before I get spammed, I have a EDGE iPhone, and I'd rather be able to play small games well than big ones poorly... It's all about quality not quantity.

[Small White Car]

It's battery life, plain and simple. The iPhone is pushed a lot harder because of all the network communication it has to constantly do.

Basically, the Touch could spare some bateerry life and the iPhone can't.

[SpaceMagic]

What rubbish. My 1st Generation touch hasn't had any problems, ever.

The fault is on the developers. People don't want to be woo'd by graphics. If anything is to be mass market, they need to concentrate on gameplay, plot and accessibility.

[rockosmodurnlif]

This screws up everyone.
Developers need to develop and test for different devices. Customer doesn't know how well the game is supposed to run on their device.
This is why Xbox and PS doesn't speed bump with hardware revisions, but they make it cooler, quieter, slimmer etc, so everyone can have the same game experience.
Well Apple isn't a gaming company. I'm sure they'll learn.

Besides which I'd expect this. Isn't the iPhone also busy maintaining a network connection even with another application running? I'd think the iPod touch has more free cycles than the iPhone, more available RAM and with faster processor speed, it should be significantly faster.

Can't wait for the first game to come out that says "2nd Generation iPod Touch only" to be released. Then we'll see some debate.

[IndyJonez]

Some of you say that the iphone has this or that running in the background therefore lagging performance down. Would you be speaking of the radios? 3G, Edge, Wifi?

Maybe there would be a way for them to allow the same boost in speed as the touch if you were to switch to "airplane" mode with all the background radio noise off.

Basically with the radio's off you have a touch correct?

So in this case apple could just simply say. Hey, if you want touch speeds, then make it so if you wish!

I dunno, just a thought. ;)

[SnowLeopard2008]

Does that mean I went from 2nd class (iPhone being 1st) to 3rd class?:confused::confused:

[kk1ro]

Seeing as the iPod Touch 2G is being marketed as the "gaming iPod", I feel this clock increase was needed.
A person that buys an iPhone doesn't do it for the games (or, at least, they shouldn't), they do it to have an open platform that does many things, so they can't expect the device to be optimized for each and every one of those things...
And, as we see a lot of "iPhone-only" apps (Ocarina, Shazam, etc), we're bound to start seeing a lot more iPod Touch 2G-only games that take advantage of the higher processor speed.

This helps differentiate the Touch (gaming iPod) from the iPhone (all-in-one device).

[MacbookSwitcher]

Wait....you mean the newer model is faster?? I've never heard of this in the world of computers...

UNPRECEDENTED!

:)

[Warbrain]

Like others have said, it's all about battery life. The iPod touch can spare some battery life, the iPhone cannot.

But a simple software update for the iPhone would bring both the 2G and 3G models up to speed.

[Muncher]

Does the 2nd generation iPod Touch have shorter battery life than the 1st gen Touch? And was the battery size changed? If the 2nd gen Touch can have a higher clocked CPU and have similar battery life that'll be fairly impressive.

I wonder if the GPU has similarly seen a clock speed boost.

It's battery life is better when watching movies and the like, but it's not all that great playing intensive games.

How interesting!

I'm just wondering what significant performance boosts the next gen iPhone and iPod touch will have. Such boosts will make it clear if the product will become a full-fledged PDA (or even a mini-laptop), or just remain a small entertainment device. We really don't have enough to go on with just 2 models in each lineup.

I have a feeling apple has big things planned with that PA semi acquisition. In two or three years I see a much more powerful iPod/iPhone, timed to be released with new battery tech (see zinc-air and others).

BTW, 2.2 kicks butt in the battery dept. It REALLY improves it on mine at least. Very noticeable.

Definitely. I watched a episode of a tv show (~40 min) and a game or two of anaconda, with almost no battery gone.

Also, doesn't it seem like the 'image' of the iPod Touch has changed dramatically more than once?

First, it was/is a cut down iPhone.
Then, it was/is apple's attempt at a mobile net device.
After, it became/is an expandable PDA (after App Store).
Now, it's a gaming device that also play music.

BTW, I'm not arguing with this progression. I like the direction it's moving in. :p:D

[flottenheimer]

On the topic of iPhone/Touch graphics. I simply hate the fact that everyone keeps on comparing the the capabilities of Apples devices to those of the the PSP. The games on my PSP blasts away anything and everything on my Touch.

Try, say, "God Of War" on the PSP if you're in doubt - in-game realtime graphics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc2r_r4e4Ew). Where's the iPhone/Touch game to rival this?

And while the controls (touch+tilt) on the iPhone/Touch open up possibilities for a whole new kind of games I still prefer those on the PSP (or NDS) on a portable gaming device. Apple clearly hasn't understood the importance of "control" in gaming. Nintendo has. Sony has. Microsoft has.

[SimonTheSoundMa]

There are daemons running in the background to listen in for incoming calls, SMS etc. They are always running. Touch does not have these.
Some of you say that the iphone has this or that running in the background therefore lagging performance down. Would you be speaking of the radios? 3G, Edge, Wifi?

Maybe there would be a way for them to allow the same boost in speed as the touch if you were to switch to "airplane" mode with all the background radio noise off.

Basically with the radio's off you have a touch correct?

So in this case apple could just simply say. Hey, if you want touch speeds, then make it so if you wish!

I dunno, just a thought. ;)

[kk1ro]

On the topic of iPhone/Touch graphics. I simply hate the fact that everyone keeps on comparing the the capabilities of Apples devices to those of the the PSP. The games on my PSP blasts away anything and everything on my Touch.

Try, say, "God Of War" on the PSP if you're in doubt - in-game realtime graphics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc2r_r4e4Ew). Where's the iPhone/Touch game to rival this?

And while the controls (touch+tilt) on the iPhone/Touch open up possibilities for a whole new kind of games I still prefer those on the PSP (or NDS) on a portable gaming device. Apple clearly hasn't understood the importance of "control" in gaming. Nintendo has. Sony has. Microsoft has.

The Sony PSP has been on the market for 4 years... Developing games for it is basically the same as developing for the PS2, a home console that's been around for almost 10 years...

The iPhone SDK, along with the first iPhone/Touch games, was released this year...

Although I do prefer physical buttons to the whole touch and motion sensing stuff, I have to say that the iPhone/Touch have the capabilities to be very successful in the gaming market.
You just have to give developers a year or two before they can squeeze every little polygon out of the devices.

[QCassidy352]

:( I can't help but think that in the future it won't be so simple to buy apps - some will run on some phones/pods but not others.

:(

AppleMatt

I think that's inevitable. There will probably be many more generations of both the iphone and ipod touch, and of course the hardware will change considerably over that time. There's really no way around it - unless devs were to develop only for this hardware forever - which would be nuts.

[Manic Mouse]

The Sony PSP has been on the market for 4 years... Developing games for it is basically the same as developing for the PS2, a home console that's been around for almost 10 years...

The iPhone SDK, along with the first iPhone/Touch games, was released this year...

Although I do prefer physical buttons to the whole touch and motion sensing stuff, I have to say that the iPhone/Touch have the capabilities to be very successful in the gaming market.
You just have to give developers a year or two before they can squeeze every little polygon out of the devices.

Launch games for the PSP (such as Everybody's Golf) look better and run more smoothly than anything on the iPhone.

Like the poster you're replying to said, the iPhone has nothing on the PSP in terms of gaming. The iPhone is good enough for casual, puzzle games but that's really about it. It doesn't have the GPU power, space considerations (PSP games can be up to 1.8Gb) or controls (only touch and tilt which work in a very small subset of games) to challenge the PSP.

The PSP is capable of slightly lower than PS2 quality games, and better than what the Dreamcast could pull off. The iPhone is at about a PSone-N64 level for graphics, and is horribly crippled in terms of controls for most games.

[Ninja Dom]

According to the opening post the iPhone 3G has a faster processor speed than the original iPhone.

Is this true??

Anyone with a jailbroken original iPhone and iPhone 3G like to tell me their exact processor speeds. I believe there is a program that allows you to see the speed.

I remember that when firmware 1.1.2 was released a year ago, it increased the processor speed slightly. From 400MHz to 411MHz, I think.

[LtCarter47]

:( I can't help but think that in the future it won't be so simple to buy apps - some will run on some phones/pods but not others.

:(

AppleMatt

There's a pretty easy solution for this, the app store could just detect which devices and rev you have, and only show you things that run on your device.

[macintel4me]

Both paid (http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=296232471&mt=8) and free (http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=293338707&mt=8) versions of Touch Hockey: FS5 have optimizations specifically for the 2G iPod touch. The 2G iPod touch can maintain 60 frames per seconds when playing over a Wi-Fi local network. All other iPhone OS devices can only handle 40 frames per second smoothly while also doing Wi-Fi. This is why in the last Touch Hockey update is glitch-free. All iPhone OS devices run smoothly at 60 fps when not playing over Wi-Fi.

Instead of only supporting one device, we have the game make the proper adjustments to bring the best possible game-play for that specific device.

I thought it was a hardware upgrade in the 2G iPod touch and now I know for sure.

Interesting that Apple did not announce this to anyone.

[Dreamail]

It doesn't have the GPU power [...] to challenge the PSP. [...]
The iPhone is at about a PSone-N64 level for graphics, and is horribly crippled in terms of controls for most games.
On what information is this based?
John Carmack seems to think the iPhone/iPod touch is more powerful than the PSP and Nintendo DS combined (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/01/carmack_iphone_more_powerful_than_nintendo_ds_psp_combined.html).

Sure this can be marketing hype, but John Carmack is not known to lie for marketing purposes. So I would trust his judgement.

[arn]

According to the opening post the iPhone 3G has a faster processor speed than the original iPhone.

Is this true??


no. according to the opening post the iPhone 3G and original iPhone have the exact same processor speed.

The 2G iPod Touch has a faster one.

arn

[uMac]

I would expect the IPOD Touch V.2 to run apps after than IPhone G3 as there are is one major difference between the products.

The IPhone is a phone, and a portion of the IPhone logically requires processing power to operate.

As for the 2nd Generation systems being faster than the first generation, that is just a performance boost of technology.

[luminosity]

I'd just like to observe that anyone from ten years ago who was dropped into our world today would be stunned to read about phones with processors in them as fast or faster than the average desktop processor at the time.

We've come such a long way.

[ltldrummerboy]

Heck, they're faster than a 9 y.o. Strawberry iMac I just sold.

[dolbinau]

Heck, they're faster than a 9 y.o. Strawberry iMac I just sold.

I'm sure my 400 Mhz G3 iMac is faster than my iPhone.

[MacbookSwitcher]

I'd just like to observe that anyone from ten years ago who was dropped into our world today would be stunned to read about phones with processors in them as fast or faster than the average desktop processor at the time.

We've come such a long way.

Indeed. In another 10 years, we'll be driving HD displays with 5.1. audio from devices the size of a wrist watch, with 1 TB of flash storage onboard.

[Hooka]

And while the controls (touch+tilt) on the iPhone/Touch open up possibilities for a whole new kind of games I still prefer those on the PSP (or NDS) on a portable gaming device. Apple clearly hasn't understood the importance of "control" in gaming. Nintendo has. Sony has. Microsoft has.

Given :apple:'s dislike of clutter, one would expect that if :apple: was to go "all the way" with gaming on the ipod touch you would still most likely see buttonless controls. :apple: didn't spend all this RD into multi-touch to just go out and put some buttons and a directional pad on any of :apple:'s devices. Is it right? IDK, just my opinion

[amusiccale]

While it seems important to keep releasing faster devices with better battery life, it does seem counterproductive to release products with different gaming capabilities before a user base and gaming market is established (how many iterations of the Gameboy, Gameboy pocket, gameboy color did we all have?), particularly if the processor is, at a hardware level, the same. [Can anyone confirm this?] For iphone/1g touch users, how about an old-school "turbo" button in the firmware? :)

[mmoosa]

i was going to bring this up because my iPod touch 2G is way faster than my iPhone 3G, I took it to the store because my iPhone 3G was way way slower so i thought it was faulty or something, but this clears it up!

[kk1ro]

Launch games for the PSP (such as Everybody's Golf) look better and run more smoothly than anything on the iPhone.

Like the poster you're replying to said, the iPhone has nothing on the PSP in terms of gaming. The iPhone is good enough for casual, puzzle games but that's really about it. It doesn't have the GPU power, space considerations (PSP games can be up to 1.8Gb) or controls (only touch and tilt which work in a very small subset of games) to challenge the PSP.

The PSP is capable of slightly lower than PS2 quality games, and better than what the Dreamcast could pull off. The iPhone is at about a PSone-N64 level for graphics, and is horribly crippled in terms of controls for most games.

I'll repeat what I said... Developing for the PSP is almost the same as developing for the PS2... When the PSP came out, devs already had 4 years of developing on the PS2 and, so, the launch titles were almost PS2-quality games... Most of the devs that are working on iPhone games have had no prior experience with the system and some of them are cellphone game devs and simply port their games to this platform...

The PSP can push more polygons than the iPhone and will always have better graphics but to say the iPhone only has PS1-level graphics is ignorant at best. The hardware can perform at Dreamcast-level (as stated by John Carmack and SEGA themselves) and that's pretty good.
Devs just have to realise that this platform is unique and trying to port soccer and shooting games is going to be difficult, although games like Real Football 2009 are really good. They have to build games from scratch that take advantage of the unique control scheme of the iPhone.
I agree that physical buttons will always be better but this platform can really thrive in the gaming market!

In terms of space, there are HUGE games on the iPhone that are only around 100MB (Vay, for example). I have the 16GB iPod Touch 2G and wouldn't mind buying and installing two or three 500MB or 700MB games. The PSP's UMD discs can hold 1.8GB of data but you don't leave your house with a backpack full of them, do you? When I had a GBA, I took 3 to 5 cartridges with me and that was it. I had over 100 games but only carried 5 with me at the same time...

You may prefer the PSP's capabilities but to say the iPhone/Touch isn't well suited as a gaming device is just plain dumb...

[Michael CM1]

Just goes to show Apple considers the iPod Touch a gaming platform and the iPhone a phone that can do games.;)

OR with the iPhone busy doing so much else due to the 3G radio and GPS, maybe the iPod touch could afford a performance boost without sacrificing battery life.

[synagence]

I suppose while on the surface, a silent update of the processor clock speed (which given the ever on-going battery tech improvements) is understandable and predictable ... i guess its going to mean that games (which are the only programs that will push the limits of the system really) will only run on a rolling set of products ... maybe 2 or 3 years ...

But then again ... considering that its likely will release a new iPhone each year and that a contract lasts around the 2 year mark, then this should be ok

I guess many people will just take offence at feeling like a 2nd class citizen when their baby is replaced but get used to it ...

PC's are a billion times worse at depreciating performance and value so i don't care and personally am actually VERY happy Apple is already bumping the underlying tech infra.

[arubinst]

I'd noticed this already!

I bought an iPod touch for my wife a couple of weeks ago and I was amazed by how fast it seamed compared to my 3G. I thought that it could have something to do with the fact that her iPod was brand new and hardly had any applications or contacts.

After all these days, her contact list is now filled with entries, she has a couple of pages of apps, lots of music and the thing still performs brilliantly, much better and far more fluid than my iPhone.

[kugino]

so all the whiners complaining about no streets view on their touches now have some reason to gloat...;)

[pubwvj]

From Handheld Games Corp's experience, the 2nd Generation iPod touch is the fastest model "by far", followed by the iPhone 3G, iPhone and finally the 1st Generation iPod touch lagging behind (at least with respect to 3D gaming). Due to these differences, Handheld Games Corp's CEO does not recommend anyone interested in gaming to even consider buying a used 1st Generation iPod touch.

Translation: "Since we can't do a good enough job programming on the slower hardware you should spend more money buying newer hardware."

Okay, I got it.

Reality check: there is plenty of serious gaming without the latest greatest hardware.

[kk1ro]

Translation: "Since we can't do a good enough job programming on the slower hardware you should spend more money buying newer hardware."

Okay, I got it.

Reality check: there is plenty of serious gaming without the latest greatest hardware.

You're mistaken...
If you read the whole article, they clearly state that they have tweaked the game to run flawlessly on every device.
They reduced the poly count on the tennis players' models (from 1500 to 1000) on the iPhone and iPod Touch 1G versions so they could run at the same framerate as the iPod Touch 2G version (which has a higher poly count) without being visually inferior.

They just advise people that are looking to buy one of these devices for gaming to get the one with the fastest hardware because future games will surely take advantage of it.

[dagger01]

hmmm, never would have expected this...

This makes sense if you stop and think for a second about one thing: Battery life. Faster processor, more juice needed, less battery life. The iPhone is primarily a phone, so I can see why they would ratchet down the processor speed to save battery power. I can also see why those restrictions would matter less for the iPod Touch, as it's a music device and it's not critical if you drain the battery and can't play your tunes. It is a bit more disconcerting if you drain the battery on your phone and need to make a call!

I certainly see this performance issue changing over time. I think the pure utility of the device makes this a negligible performance issue. If you buy an iPhone as a gaming device that's a bit silly. You should buy an iPhone because you need the functionality, IMHO.

[yorkshire]

Interesting. Wonder if next the iPhone and touch will increase the clock speed further.

[IndyJonez]

OR with the iPhone busy doing so much else due to the 3G radio and GPS, maybe the iPod touch could afford a performance boost without sacrificing battery life.

No offense to your post whatsoever but why does everyone think the slow down is due to the radios and the gps?

How many games do you play (I realize there are some online games) that require the 3g and/or the gps and/or the wifi or even edge to be active?

Yea I realize its a phone and you probably want those functions kept on in case an important or any call comes through and therefore since most people aren't going to turn all of those radios off wouldn't you think the iphone would need the faster processor to kind of counteract these floating/constantly searching radios and such in the background so that performance is not hindered in the least bit?

Doesn't make much sense. "Ok, so were gonna put a faster processor in our touch that has nothing more than wifi, (if you want it on) an ipod and the ability to run all app store games. BUT! Were gonna keep the iphone 3G with the slower processor that has 2 or 3 radio antennas constantly roaming/searching/locking on and off with gps, camera etc etc etc. Yea the phone doesn't NEED anymore power right?" pshhhh whatever...

I guess it comes down to battery power right?

I wonder what the iphone3G to 2ndgentouch user ratio is? Hrmmm, I feel a poll brewin'.

:D

[nick9191]

Interesting. Wonder if next the iPhone and touch will increase the clock speed further.

It better be quad core, 4gb RAM, all user replaceable. In fact it better be headless so I can use my own screen.

[KingYaba]

Has anyone compared these iPhone and iPod processors to an equivalent, in clock speed, G3?

[Beric]

Has anyone compared these iPhone and iPod processors to an equivalent, in clock speed, G3?

Heh, now that's something I'd like to see.

[firewood]

Has anyone compared these iPhone and iPod processors to an equivalent, in clock speed, G3?

Most of my small integer and floating-point benchmarks run between 30% and 2X slower on my iPhone 3G compared against a Beige G3/266 (with the iPhone running ARM with VFP, not Thumb with emulated FP). Similarly, the benchmarks seem about 4X to 6X slower on a 3G than an iBook G3/800. Thus, should be maybe around 2X to 3X slower than a G3 at the same clock rate (assuming no major system differences in memory latency/bandwidths, etc.)


.

[funnyent]

I bet if we put our iphones on airplane mode it would be faster. apple is just trying to save our battery life. Us with iPhones will be laughing all the way to our next FREE software update. iPod touch... $10. haha

[firewood]

Has anyone compare the chip numbers on the teardowns?

They could be using a CPU chip revision which tested out at a lower power consumption for the same clock rate, or at a higher clock rate for the same power consumption. There could also be differences in the amount of RFI/EMI allowed inside a phone, either to not interfere with the phone, or to pass stricter FCC regulations on phones.


.

[firewood]

This screws up everyone.
Developers need to develop and test for different devices. Customer doesn't know how well the game is supposed to run on their device.

Developers only need to test on the slowest device for which they plan to market their product. Then, if they want consistent game play on all devices, just throttle the frame rate on any newer/faster devices to the max level they can squeeze out of the slowest device. The user benefits by greater battery life.


.

[IndyJonez]

So where do you draw the line?

The sales pitch on these 2 products may sound something like this...

"Ok so we have the ipod touch. Ipod, internet in your pocket and game, music and podcast downloads over wifi only and the fastest, smoothest processor for gaming out of all our portables with options for 16 and 32gb storage space."

"Or. The iphone 3G. Ipod. GPS. Internet in your pocket and game, music and podcast downloads over at&t's edge, 3g or wifi connection nearly making online gaming and updateing available virtually anywhere. You also get an 'ok' 2mp camera. Here's the only kicker sir, and I assure you its only minor, (customer: "huh? Yea ok, I'm listening, can't wait to play the most of the 1500 games available which is just the icing on the cake! Wow! What geniuses at apple to create an app store!") the iphone has an inferior processor that can only handle so much as opposed to the touch, so your nearly perfect all-in-one pocket device is going to lag behind when playing games due to a slower processor than the touch. >insert pompous chuckle< Haha, who plays games anyways, or should I say, who wants to take advantage of the best games there are to offer in the appstore, you look like a puzzle/soduko kinda guy, am I right? So anyways, as I was saying, your iphone is underpowered and your battery life is going to suck anyways."

Now which one will you be taking home today?

:D

Guess now we have something to look foward to at MW, or will they keep us waiting until WWDC??? Hell, I dunno. Screw it. LoL

[CaptainCannabis]

Oh yeah! Games run better on a 500mhz than my 800mhz core shutting Crapbook Air!! Now I know what to do! Just switch the F processors! At least i'll get it to run youtube smoothly! And now that I cracked my Crapbook Air open after throwing it out of the windows (like a frisbee, only thing it can be used for) the touch processor is going to be easier than ever to install! Oh yea!

[MoreForgotten]

I myself don't care about the battery life I would want the speed. I had the first gen iPhone, I bought 2 other docks so I could put one at a friends and one at work. I also had http://cgi.ebay.com/FM-TRANSMITTER-FOR-iPHONE-3G-CAR-CHARGER-CRADLE-G3-DOCK_W0QQitemZ120334628120 what didn't work as a FM thingy but it charged from dead to full in about 15 minutes... Anyways it got stolen and I am thinking about buying a new iPhone. I don't want something slower, if they can fix it by software upgrade fine I'll get one. Hardware upgrade... Screw that... I want to know is the iTouch better in hardware then the iPhone? :apple:

[wizard]

It's battery life is better when watching movies and the like, but it's not all that great playing intensive games.

Most likely due to 3D being compute intensive relative to processing specifically ripped movies.



I have a feeling apple has big things planned with that PA semi acquisition. In two or three years I see a much more powerful iPod/iPhone, timed to be released with new battery tech (see zinc-air and others).

I'm not sure what Apple is up to with PA Semi. Frankly I don't believe anything they say publicly as they have contradicted themselves extensively. Of course they have to, to keep the competition off balance.

In any event even if PA isn't in the equation I would expect Apple to have some very advanced handhelds by next summer. If PA doesn't deliver there are a bunch of other companies make ready with the latest ARM stuff. We could easily see three times the current performance, if they can manage a 1.2 GHz ARM. Actually the new ARM cores are so improved that they wouldn't have to hit 1.2 GHz, but think of it as an equivalent performance target.

You are also on target with respect to batteries, a huge amount of research going on here. The big issue is some body has to take the dive and invest in manufacturing and marketing. A shaky affair for the foreseeable.



Definitely. I watched a episode of a tv show (~40 min) and a game or two of anaconda, with almost no battery gone.

I'm really surprised just how much better my iPhone 3G is after the 2.2 update. I have to wonder if the clock rate was accelerated. What ever they did it is nice.

Also, doesn't it seem like the 'image' of the iPod Touch has changed dramatically more than once?

No not at all if you ask me. Apple needs to get the message out to people that these devices are very flexible.

First, it was/is a cut down iPhone.
Then, it was/is apple's attempt at a mobile net device.
After, it became/is an expandable PDA (after App Store).
Now, it's a gaming device that also play music.

No it is all of the above. Apple only has so many seconds for a commercial, better to target a specific feature than to leave people confused. In any event the lack of 3G on the Touch limits the device as an mobile net device, a role that iPhone fills much better.


BTW, I'm not arguing with this progression. I like the direction it's moving in. :p:D

I like it too!!! However I need to see Apple get off this one product line up and get a few more devices out there in portable hand held land. If Apple wants to bury the competition the way to do that is through choice. First on their list should be a checkbook sized Touch device with lots of memory!

Dave

[pismodude2]

For everyone who tried the last version of TapTap on an iPhone or iPod Touch 1G, it lagged like crazy! Everyone in my family used my iPod Touch 2G to play TapTap, now I know why!

[ltldrummerboy]

I won't argue with that. When playing online, Tap Tap stutters a bit even on my 2G, and it's not my internet.

[booksacool1]

Man... this situation is getting confusing. The reason you buy apple products is for consistency, you can assume everything to be compatible.

But now there appear to be substantial unacknowledged differences between the machines, which makes it difficult to determine if the game will run adequately on your particular piece of hardware (e.g. first gen iPod touch).

Apple may be trying to market their ipod touch and iphone like a portable console, but consoles are consistent. You can run a listed-compatible game on any psp/xbox/ps2, regardless of which revision it may be. However running the latest whiz-bang 3d game on a first gen iPod touch may not be playable, even though it is listed as compatible.

Disappointing. apple.

[mrsteveman1]

While it seems important to keep releasing faster devices with better battery life, it does seem counterproductive to release products with different gaming capabilities before a user base and gaming market is established (how many iterations of the Gameboy, Gameboy pocket, gameboy color did we all have?), particularly if the processor is, at a hardware level, the same. [Can anyone confirm this?] For iphone/1g touch users, how about an old-school "turbo" button in the firmware? :)

2nd gen touch is a new processor, that i believe is why the jailbreaks aren't available yet (proc is where the bootloader is, one of them at least).

[IndyJonez]

2nd gen touch is a new processor, that i believe is why the jailbreaks aren't available yet (proc is where the bootloader is, one of them at least).

Ok so, it's a NEW processor, which came first? The 2nd gen Touch or the iphone 3G?

There still may be hope! :D

[mrsteveman1]

They could be using a CPU chip revision which tested out at a lower power consumption for the same clock rate, or at a higher clock rate for the same power consumption.

That has been my thought since i heard about this speed difference. They wouldn't likely just up the speed on the new device without some "give" on the heat and power use end. This 2nd gen touch gets a little hot where the proc is, but i suspect if it were a first gen touch clocked at 532 it would get hotter.

[kgregc1]

but I could care less about games or music on my 2G 32G iPod Touch... I use it for portable email, surfing favorite sites, photos, podcasts and PDA functions. Speed and stability are good.... 2.2 fixed a lot of problems, and I thank Apple for it.

[mrsteveman1]

Ok so, it's a NEW processor, which came first? The 2nd gen Touch or the iphone 3G?

There still may be hope! :D

Chronologically by release date, the 2.5g iphone, then the 1st gen touch, then iphone 3g, then 2nd gen touch. We don't know which ones started development first though.

[mavis]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone 3G (16GB): Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5G77 Safari/525.20)

hmmm, never would have expected this...

When you have both devices and can compare then side by side, the difference is night and day. And it's not just games - my iPhone takes three times as long to boot and to power off than my 2G iPod does, not to mention the difference in app opening speeds (Settings, Photos, iPod, etc) ...

[OrangeDog]

It's extremely obvious when you use a 1g or let a 1g user use your 2g that the 2g is leaps and bounds faster and more responsive than the older 1g.

[JackAxe]

This is nice and all, but what I really would like to know, is why does my supposedly faster 2G Touch sometimes "SKIP" while playing back Apple Lossless?

[dwsolberg]

I hope Apple gives the iPhone and iPod faster processors and more memory at the same time they continue to optimize and speed up their existing devices. This is the same pattern they use with their other computers, and I see no reason not to do it with their iPhone and iPod Touch.

Games are not Apple's only market with the iPhone. We need to think of the iPhone and iPod Touch as handheld computers that play games (rather than as game consoles). They should be upgraded with speed, memory, and video power periodically just like computers.

Most software developers will produce software that works on the lowest common denominator of hardware just like most current software for Macs and PCs. A few game manufacturers will push the envelope, and if you want maximum frame rate and detail, you'll have to spend the money for the newest hardware. To maximum profits, those game developers will program their games to allow different settings for different processor speeds, sort of the way that computer games already operate, except it would be automatically programmed to adjust for the hardware.

[mavis]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone 3G (16GB): Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5G77 Safari/525.20)

That's a good point. In the future, there's no doubt we're going to see iPhones and iPods with not only faster CPUs and GPUs but also with a lot more RAM. I mean, already the iPhone 3G slows to a crawl when trying to multitask (listening to music while doing anything else) ...

[firewood]

This is nice and all, but what I really would like to know, is why does my supposedly faster 2G Touch sometimes "SKIP" while playing back Apple Lossless?

There may have been a slight OS/hardware incompatibility bug that the 2.2 update reportedly fixes.

[Dokter_Mac]

I don't agree with the statement about first gen. iPods & iPhones.
Before there was even a second gen. iPod or iPhone I saw Quake 3 running on a iPod Touch. Playing a network game...

And believe me, this was running very well with no lag and nice framerates.

So the statement that a first gen. iPod or iPhone is not that good for 3D is just not true.
Yes, the second gen. iPod & iPhone have a faster processor. So they will run 3D apps a bit faster. But claiming a first gen. iPod or iPhone is not good for 3D apps is just not right.

Maybe "Mobile developer Handheld Games Corp" needs to optimise there code :D. I can't believe that the code for TouchSports Tennis is more complex then the Quake 3 engine :rolleyes:.

My 2 cents

[Minimoose 360]

It's ok the iPhone is only underclocked. No big deal.

[Dokter_Mac]

Here is a link.

http://hermitworks.blogspot.com/2008/04/quake-3-itouch.html
:D

[Riemann Zeta]

Interesting, I wonder if the new iPod touch has a newer generation chipset/CPU combo (which would also have a revised vector core). Considering that the iPhone OS firmwares are quite similar, it seems odd that one of the four firmwares would enable such a dramatic increase in CPU speed if the hardware were indeed identical between all of the various iPhone-like devices.

[IndyJonez]

It's ok the iPhone is only underclocked. No big deal.

Well in that case, apple should allow the option to run your iphone at it's peak performance by turning off radios and such (airplane mode) if one chooses to do so. Hopefully it wouldn't drain the battery any faster than the 2nd gen. touch, since I guess technically that's what you would be holding in your very hand an iphone with no connectivity = touch, right?

[IndyJonez]

(which would also have a revised vector core).

Oooh, now your just talkin' dirty!

:D

[JackAxe]

There may have been a slight OS/hardware incompatibility bug that the 2.2 update reportedly fixes.

Still happens with 2.2. :( My old 3G iPod never had an issue when its battery was good.

The saved fuzzy picture thing also bothers me and I noticed others have had the same issue. Blah.

[mdriftmeyer]

Oh boohoo to all you iPhone users.

The next version will most certainly be bumped up.

I imagine that two revisions from now you might see your processor surpass 1Ghz and the bus speeds at 500Mhz.

[JAT]

As usual, the MR forums are filled with some of the most bizarre insights imaginable. Maybe you type before really thinking things through? Let's see what we've got today....


Also, doesn't it seem like the 'image' of the iPod Touch has changed dramatically more than once?

First, it was/is a cut down iPhone.
Then, it was/is apple's attempt at a mobile net device.
After, it became/is an expandable PDA (after App Store).
Now, it's a gaming device that also play music.


Muncher, and others with similar comments, all you are talking about is commercials. My god, is that how your life is run? A commercial says something, and your religion just changed? You buy a new house or car? If you have no self-control, at least get a DVR, man!!

It's always been all of that. I could recognize instantly (ok, call it "I hoped") all of its future capabilities right when it was announced, based on the specs, what the iPhone could already do, and my knowledge of crazed Mac hackers. It did take a couple months to become more than a spiffy music player, of course. I bought mine when the first $20 App upgrade came, fulfilling my hopes that actually started when the iPhone was announced.


I bet if we put our iphones on airplane mode it would be faster.

Seriously? There's a dozen posts about this. So, you want a cool phone, but with the phone turned off? Just buy the Touch, then, guess this revelation gives a good reason. I just can't fathom the thought process that comes up with this stuff. Maybe you should just turn the whole thing off, the battery charge will last months!!



This is nice and all, but what I really would like to know, is why does my supposedly faster 2G Touch sometimes "SKIP" while playing back Apple Lossless?

I'm not complaining about this post, but commenting....my 1G did this for a while, too. (all my music is Apple Lossless) I believe 1.1.3 or .4 fixed it. I'm betting firmware is the issue and it could be fixed. Maybe you should send a report to Apple, make sure they know. Too many people use MP3 garbage, you and I may be the only Touch users on the planet with Lossless.

[apsterling]

Ha, for a change touch users aren't shafted on their purchase.

[IndyJonez]

So, i've been scouring the iphone related sites today and noticed several posters commenting that since the 2.2 update that most everything is running faster and smoother.

Maybe the update unleashed a little more power, like say, 120mhz more power? :D

Anyone tested or know how to run the benchmark? I'm curious.

[pmd]

I'll repeat what I said... Developing for the PSP is almost the same as developing for the PS2... When the PSP came out, devs already had 4 years of developing on the PS2 and, so, the launch titles were almost PS2-quality games...

Sorry, that's not correct. A PSP is very different from a PS2. Even if they could be considered 'roughly' the same in power (they're not, PS2 is more capable), doesn't mean that they're the same machines to develop for. CPUs are different, graphics hardware is different, development environment is different etc.

Xbox360 and PS3 are 'roughly' the same in power, but programming for them is very different.

I spent ~8 years developing PS2 titles. Whilst at Sony Europe I sat next to the PSP team attempting to port our PS2 engine, and they didn't have it easy!

[mavis]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone 3G (16GB): Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5G77 Safari/525.20)

So, i've been scouring the iphone related sites today and noticed several posters commenting that since the 2.2 update that most everything is running faster and smoother.

Maybe the update unleashed a little more power, like say, 120mhz more power? :D

Anyone tested or know how to run the benchmark? I'm curious.

I'm curious too. My iPhone is performing much better since the 2.2 upgrade - no question. I'd assumed it was due to some kind of OS optimizations but I wonder if it actually was a CPU speed bump. Which would also explain why the screen seems dim with the new firmware - they had to compensate somehow. :)

[Stratus Fear]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone 3G (16GB): Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5G77 Safari/525.20)



I'm curious too. My iPhone is performing much better since the 2.2 upgrade - no question. I'd assumed it was due to some kind of OS optimizations but I wonder if it actually was a CPU speed bump. Which would also explain why the screen seems dim with the new firmware - they had to compensate somehow. :)

It doesn't appear that they've actually raised the CPU clock.

iPhone:~ root# uname -a
Darwin iPhone 9.4.1 Darwin Kernel Version 9.4.1: Sat Nov 1 19:09:48 PDT 2008; root:xnu-1228.7.36~2/RELEASE_ARM_S5L8900X iPhone1,2 arm N82AP Darwin
iPhone:~ root# sysctl -a hw.cpufrequency
hw.cpufrequency: 412000000
iPhone:~ root#

Oh well. Maybe they will sometime. ;)

[Matt89]

Man, that CPU is really owning

[JackAxe]

I'm not complaining about this post, but commenting....my 1G did this for a while, too. (all my music is Apple Lossless) I believe 1.1.3 or .4 fixed it. I'm betting firmware is the issue and it could be fixed. Maybe you should send a report to Apple, make sure they know. Too many people use MP3 garbage, you and I may be the only Touch users on the planet with Lossless.

I hope so. I've sent feedback to Apple.

My entire collection is in Lossless, so I really don't want to reimport all of my CDs to a lower format and it doesn't help that Apple removed the options for higher AAC settings with their iTunes 8.0.1 update.

[PodGuy]

Considering that the iPhone OS firmwares are quite similar, it seems odd that one of the four firmwares would enable such a dramatic increase in CPU speed if the hardware were indeed identical between all of the various iPhone-like devices.

Probaby another way that Apple :apple: tries to milk it's consumers; underclocking/underoptimizing the firmware to start with, so customers can wonder how drastically the paying new OS upgrade has boosted their performance ... :D

[MojoWill]

who cares its an iPod its used to listen to music! you want gaming buy a real machine like a 360 or PS3

[mavis]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone 3G (16GB): Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5G77 Safari/525.20)

who cares its an iPod its used to listen to music! you want gaming buy a real machine like a 360 or PS3

Except that I don't carry my PS3 with me on the train. Next, please.

[OrangeDog]

who cares its an iPod its used to listen to music! you want gaming buy a real machine like a 360 or PS3

Do you carry a generator around with you?

[Miharu]

Now I'm very sad that I bought an 8 gb iPod Touch (1st gen) used about a week after the new model came out. I hope there won't be any apps that require the newer model.

[kk1ro]

Sorry, that's not correct. A PSP is very different from a PS2. Even if they could be considered 'roughly' the same in power (they're not, PS2 is more capable), doesn't mean that they're the same machines to develop for. CPUs are different, graphics hardware is different, development environment is different etc.

Xbox360 and PS3 are 'roughly' the same in power, but programming for them is very different.

I spent ~8 years developing PS2 titles. Whilst at Sony Europe I sat next to the PSP team attempting to port our PS2 engine, and they didn't have it easy!

Well, I believe what you said and I have absolutely no experience in programming (although I know my way around hardware). I was just talking based on what I saw/heard on some developer interviews when the PSP was announced.
Most of them were saying that the PSP was very similar (although underpowered in comparison) to the PS2 and that the switch from PS2 development to PSP development would be a piece of cake.

Even some homebrew sites like Osix.net state that:

"The PSP's core is based around the MIPS R4000 core. It contains the CPU and FPU, as well as a vector unit (a coprocessor for vector and matrix operations). Together these components form the Allegrex CPU core. The CPU clock is adjustable to anywhere between 1Mhz and 333Mhz. Sony restrict developers to a maximum of 222Mhz to ensure the battery lasts for a reasonable amount of time. The CPU is paired with a dedicated media CPU, capable of hardware MP3, ATRAC3 and h.264 decoding. For graphics, the PSP sports a dedicated GPU, capable of lighting, skinning, subdivision, pixel operations, and a few other functions.

Main memory is 32mb, divided into 8mb for the kernel and 24mb for the currently running game. Video memory is 2mb. Overall this hardware is very similar to the PS2, which had a MIPS R5900 core, 2 vector units, 32mb of main ram and 4mb of video ram. Anyone familiar with coding for the PS2 should be fairly comfortable with the PSP."

I'm not doubting you, I'm just saying what I saw/heard.

Even so, the main point is that the iPhone and iPod Touch haven't been pushed to the limit so far. Games that take full advantage of the graphical capabilities of these devices are still a year away, at least.
The iPhone/Touch does have far superior graphical capabilities when compared to the PSone and the N64 as many developers have stated.
The devs just need time to learn how to push it to its limits, like any new piece of hardware.

[OrangeDog]

I hope there won't be any apps that require the newer model.

2g owners won't be sorry.

[christian_k]

I'm sure my 400 Mhz G3 iMac is faster than my iPhone.

I have ported a 3D racing game to the iPhone, this is totally unplayable on an old PowerMac G3 (400 MHz, Rage 128/16 MB), you need an iMac G4 at least. At the beginning of the project we were not sure if a port to iPhone was possible, but a first gen iPod touch handles that game very well.

While you may be right in terms of raw processor power, especially floating point performance, we were very surprised about the gfx speed.

Christian

[quick5pnt0]

who cares its an iPod its used to listen to music! you want gaming buy a real machine like a 360 or PS3

Probably would have made more sense if you said PSP. :p Doesn't matter though because your point doesn't make complete sense. Sure if you want to just play games then using a PSP makes the most sense. However the majority of Ipod Touch owners use it for games, email, browsing, calendar, etc

If I bought my Ipod just to listen to music I would have kept my Nano or bought a Classic.

:( I can't help but think that in the future it won't be so simple to buy apps - some will run on some phones/pods but not others.


True. Unfortunately that's just the nature of the beast. We can't really expect technology to come to a standstill because people want to buy new games for their touch/iphone. Pac Man would still be cutting edge if the gaming community thought like that.

[Rybold]

Does anyone know when the next iPhone is supposed to come out? :confused:

I think I'm going to go over to my Apple Store and start waiting in line for it. :rolleyes:

[sterlingindigo]

I thought it was agreed, we'd all be using the term "snappier" when referring to speed issues?

[firewood]

I have ported a 3D racing game to the iPhone, this is totally unplayable on an old PowerMac G3 (400 MHz, Rage 128/16 MB), you need an iMac G4 at least. At the beginning of the project we were not sure if a port to iPhone was possible, but a first gen iPod touch handles that game very well.

While you may be right in terms of raw processor power, especially floating point performance, we were very surprised about the gfx speed.

Christian

The floating point performance of the iPhone CPU isn't significantly worse than it's general integer performance. They're both around 2X to 3X slower than a PowerMac G3 (and the PowerMac would require a huge battery to run for an hour). But the VR graphics chip in an iPhone is a lot faster at Open GL than the graphics cards that came with the older PowerMacs, especially if an app can keep everything for a tile inside the texture caches.

.

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5G77 Safari/525.20)

This is very interesting. I would have thought that the iPhone 3G would have gotten a processor upgrade as well. I didn't realize that Apple upgraded one but not the other. I guess that it has something to do with the later release date of the second generation iPod touch.

[koobcamuk]

The fact I get iffy reception and sometimes none, dropped calls and no emails is enough to make me want them to stop pissing about with games and make the phone a good phone again. Software 1.1.4 was it? was ace.

[kdarling]

500MHz phones are pretty common.

Just some speeds of other phones for comparison:

Samsung i770: 400 MHz
HTC Touch models: 528 MHz
Samsung Omnia: 624 MHz
Samsung Omnia+: 806 MHz
ASUS P565: 800 MHz

Need to get stock battery sizes and advertised battery life, and do a comparison, but am too busy this morning.

It'd be interesting if a hacker upped their 3G speed and tested the difference in battery life. At about .45mW per Mhz for a typical ARM cpu, we should be able to figure it out.

[alexbates]

I wonder how much different it feels playing a game at the 532MHz.
I have the iPod Touch 1st Gen and the games seem to function perfectly.

[Beric]

Does anyone know when the next iPhone is supposed to come out? :confused:

I think I'm going to go over to my Apple Store and start waiting in line for it. :rolleyes:

LOL :D

Well-put.

[agentkow]

Here's a really good example of the difference it makes:

I just upgraded from a 1g to a 2g iPod touch, and one of the free games I previously played on the 1g, Keepy Uppy (http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=293909087&mt=8), is almost unplayable on the 2g now because it is so fast!

I don't know if it was the developer's intention or not, but it used to be like gentle lobs that would spin and bounce with enough time to time the next "kick", and now it animates so quickly it's much more difficult to keep the ball up for any real amount of time. My previous high score was 42, and now I find it hard to break ten!

[slackpacker]

This is really annoying... There is no way I'm going to purchase another ipod ontop of the phone just to play games....

I say that the programers better stop blaming Apple and Get the Code in order to make it perform well on Both

[Riemann Zeta]

The funny thing is that I don't particularly care about games on the iPhone OS--the lack of a real control mechanism damps any possible enthusiasm that I might have had (I'm a big shooter fan and the iPhone interface is just not amenable to FPS-like games). However, there are two reasons why I would like a boost in CPU speed: (1) Safari Mobile rendering speed (although I have to wonder if the most significant bottleneck is simply the 128k EDGE network speed) and (2) because it's there--the practice of castrating a more capable CPU by underclocking it has always seemed lame to me, for example, the PSP would have been a far more powerful machine if Sony had released it with the CPU clocked at the real speed, letting developers decide how much oomph they needed for a certain game engine.

[illegallydead]

Launch games for the PSP (such as Everybody's Golf) look better and run more smoothly than anything on the iPhone.

Like the poster you're replying to said, the iPhone has nothing on the PSP in terms of gaming. The iPhone is good enough for casual, puzzle games but that's really about it. It doesn't have the GPU power, space considerations (PSP games can be up to 1.8Gb) or controls (only touch and tilt which work in a very small subset of games) to challenge the PSP.

The PSP is capable of slightly lower than PS2 quality games, and better than what the Dreamcast could pull off. The iPhone is at about a PSone-N64 level for graphics, and is horribly crippled in terms of controls for most games.

This sounds exactly like the arguments people use/used against the Wii. Different doesn't necessarily mean worse.
That said, I do not see the ipod Touch having anywhere near the success of the Wii game-wise, it is just interesting to compare your argument :)

[illegallydead]

This is really annoying... There is no way I'm going to purchase another ipod ontop of the phone just to play games....

I say that the programers better stop blaming Apple and Get the Code in order to make it perform well on Both

That's like trying to blame game developers for the PC for having their game suck on some 1GHz Celeron, 128MB RAM, no GPU Comp. I mean come on,
Get the Code
:D

Hardware changes dude. Even if they are the same chips just under/overclocked in the 1G vs. 2G ipod Touches, people who bought the last generation don't have as "cool" of a device. Period. This happens in EVERY technology-based industry/device. Get over it.

[chipaudio]

How bad is Player 1... I mean come on, CPU is up by 40! No one is that bad.

[commander.data]

Maybe I'm missing something, but is the 2nd Gen Touch being clocked higher that much of an impediment to programming? As other's have mentioned, I would think most people could just target the lowest common denominator and if they have time, develop a more graphically intense version for the 2nd Gen Touch as a bonus. I don't think people necessarily lose out in such an approach.

In any case, if this kicks up enough fuss, I don't doubt that Apple will upclock the 1st Gen Touch and the iPhones slightly. If I'm not mistaken, the 2nd Gen Touch uses a new revision of the CPU, probably not die shrunk, just on a more mature process, like how Intel releases higher clock speed processors over time even though it's still 45nm. In such a case, it's highly unlikely we'll see the 1st Gen Touch and iPhones clock up to 532MHz due to power and thermal issues. However, something like 440MHz seems reasonable, 10% faster than the original 400MHz. Still not the 33% of the 2nd Gen Touch, but it might be enough in most cases.

And in regards to the performance difference between the 2nd Gen Touch and the other models being more than the CPU difference seems to suggest, it'd make sense if the GPU clock is tied to the bus speed. The bus would have gone up from 103MHz to 133MHz on the 2nd Gen Touch and the GPU is probably also at 133MHz. The RAM frequency may also be tied to the system bus, so everything is overclocked, not just the CPU.

The 2nd Gen Touch is probably Apple's version 1.5 of their handheld platform, while the other models are the 1.0 versions. I don't doubt that the next version of the iPhone and Touch will have completely refreshed hardware. Probably a dual core solution, ~600MHz clocks, possibly Cortex based, with a PowerVR SGX. They'll certainly need to keep pushing the envelope since Microsoft seems to be looking to release their own phone based on an nVidia SoC with a OpenGL ES 2.0 GeForce GPU.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/11/24/microsoft_developing_nvidia_based_mobile_phone_report.html

Admittedly, Microsoft may not be much of a threat right now like Zune, but that's no reason to lose momentum.

[IndyJonez]

Maybe I'm missing something, but is the 2nd Gen Touch being clocked higher that much of an impediment to programming? As other's have mentioned, I would think most people could just target the lowest common denominator and if they have time, develop a more graphically intense version for the 2nd Gen Touch as a bonus. I don't think people necessarily lose out in such an approach.

In any case, if this kicks up enough fuss, I don't doubt that Apple will upclock the 1st Gen Touch and the iPhones slightly. If I'm not mistaken, the 2nd Gen Touch uses a new revision of the CPU, probably not die shrunk, just on a more mature process, like how Intel releases higher clock speed processors over time even though it's still 45nm. In such a case, it's highly unlikely we'll see the 1st Gen Touch and iPhones clock up to 532MHz due to power and thermal issues. However, something like 440MHz seems reasonable, 10% faster than the original 400MHz. Still not the 33% of the 2nd Gen Touch, but it might be enough in most cases.

And in regards to the performance difference between the 2nd Gen Touch and the other models being more than the CPU difference seems to suggest, it'd make sense if the GPU clock is tied to the bus speed. The bus would have gone up from 103MHz to 133MHz on the 2nd Gen Touch and the GPU is probably also at 133MHz. The RAM frequency may also be tied to the system bus, so everything is overclocked, not just the CPU.

The 2nd Gen Touch is probably Apple's version 1.5 of their handheld platform, while the other models are the 1.0 versions. I don't doubt that the next version of the iPhone and Touch will have completely refreshed hardware. Probably a dual core solution, ~600MHz clocks, possibly Cortex based, with a PowerVR SGX. They'll certainly need to keep pushing the envelope since Microsoft seems to be looking to release their own phone based on an nVidia SoC with a OpenGL ES 2.0 GeForce GPU.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/11/24/microsoft_developing_nvidia_based_mobile_phone_report.html

Admittedly, Microsoft may not be much of a threat right now like Zune, but that's no reason to lose momentum.

If you are correct then you just answered the question I was just about to post regarding if the iphone 3g and 2nd gen touch shared the same processor with one just being overclocked by nearly a 1/3 percent increase in power or if the touch indeed does have an advanced, revised chip inside.

I've been patiently awaiting the time my t-mobile contract runs dry for nearly 2 years now and had planned on getting the 3g in january. Now my decision stems slightly further...go ahead and jump on that 3g in january or wait it out a mere 5 more months for wwdc where the phone may get a complete overhaul altogether. (Que the flamers: "yea and then wait another 5 months and never, yadda yadda..." oh shaddup!)

Hey, I've held on for 2 years, what's another 5 months?!

Dammit, can't I just have it all RIGHT NOW!?!
:D

[Muncher]

I like it too!!! However I need to see Apple get off this one product line up and get a few more devices out there in portable hand held land. If Apple wants to bury the competition the way to do that is through choice. First on their list should be a checkbook sized Touch device with lots of memory!

Dave

If only; not their style though.

Muncher, and others with similar comments, all you are talking about is commercials. My god, is that how your life is run? A commercial says something, and your religion just changed? You buy a new house or car? If you have no self-control, at least get a DVR, man!!

I have a DVR, but the commercials, they're so pretty... :p

Anyways, I'm not just talking about commercials. I'm talking about what Steve has said over the last few months/year. Things like "iPhone without the phone," or "a gaming device."

[commander.data]

If you are correct then you just answered the question I was just about to post regarding if the iphone 3g and 2nd gen touch shared the same processor with one just being overclocked by nearly a 1/3 percent increase in power or if the touch indeed does have an advanced, revised chip inside.
http://toucharcade.com/2008/07/07/under-the-hood-the-iphones-gaming-mettle/

The Samsung chipset at the heart of the iPhone utilizes a 32-bit RISC ARM processing core, the ARM1176JZ(F)-S v1.0. The ARM device is capable of running at 620MHz, but Apple has downclocked it to 412MHz, presumably in the interest of extending battery life. (Apple has, at least once in the past, adjusted the clockspeed of both the processor and the system bus via firmware update.) Unlike the original iPhone, the 3G iPhone and the original iPod touch, the second-generation iPod touch features an ARM1176 v4.0 core running at 532MHz.
According to this article the 2nd Gen Touch uses a revision 4.0 while the others uses a revision 1.0. I don't remember any of the tear-downs mentioning the chip being smaller so a process shrink is unlikely. It's just due to a maturing product.

[IndyJonez]

http://toucharcade.com/2008/07/07/under-the-hood-the-iphones-gaming-mettle/


According to this article the 2nd Gen Touch uses a revision 4.0 while the others uses a revision 1.0. I don't remember any of the tear-downs mentioning the chip being smaller so a process shrink is unlikely. It's just due to a maturing product.

Thank you. :)

[wayland1985]

does this mean that iphone 3g's may also have this updated chipset???

[Sehnsucht]

I was ridiculed some time ago for a iPod touch mock up with a 32 terabyte SSD and what....I think a modest pair of 3.2 GHz processors. You guys WANT me as Apple's CEO, REALLY. :D

"As your CEO, I'll work to put TI FireWire back into the MacBook." :D

[christian_k]

Try, say, "God Of War" on the PSP if you're in doubt - in-game realtime graphics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc2r_r4e4Ew). Where's the iPhone/Touch game to rival this?


When the App store started there were discussions here and elsewhere about it. When it came to games everyone talked about $2,99 $3,99 or something.
How much does it cost to develop a game like GOW? How much does it cost when you buy it? $3,99 hhmmm?

While iPod touch outperforms Nintendo DS in every way (remember, it has 4 MB RAM and 66 MHz!) and much better games should be possible on the iPod touch easily, the games are expected to be sold for 1/10 of the price of a DS game.
It is possible to make great games for iPod touch, but in such a "cheap, cheap, cheap" situation we are not able to start a year+ project on that platform, and I think many others are not able or not willing to take that risk, too.

Christian

[fat phil]

When the App store started there were discussions here and elsewhere about it. When it came to games everyone talked about $2,99 $3,99 or something.
How much does it cost to develop a game like GOW? How much does it cost when you buy it? $3,99 hhmmm?

While iPod touch outperforms Nintendo DS in every way (remember, it has 4 MB RAM and 66 MHz!) and much better games should be possible on the iPod touch easily, the games are expected to be sold for 1/10 of the price of a DS game.
It is possible to make great games for iPod touch, but in such a "cheap, cheap, cheap" situation we are not able to start a year+ project on that platform, and I think many others are not able or not willing to take that risk, too.

Christian

It's not just cost. There's nothing stopping anyone with money in the bank from making a $30 iPhone game, and it'll probably happen sooner than you think.

There are bigger reasons GOW type games aren't falling onto iPhone. Don't forget the small issue of controls. Apple's self-indulgence, translated into "no buttons for you" doesn't make certain types of games easy to adapt to the iPhone. Hence the boom in casual games, which are hardly demanding on control schemes. Not necessarily a bad thing, if you have an open mind and can do without epic action titles.

And specs never translate to real-world performance. Anyone who used to pour over the triangle count of up-coming console specs should know this from experience.

System architecture alone plays a big part in what you can and can't have. Your PSP and DS aren't running in a sandbox with a whole OS sitting in the background doing stuff, and the PSP in particular has had years of firmware upgrades to get where it is now.

[commander.data]

It's not just cost. There's nothing stopping anyone with money in the bank from making a $30 iPhone game, and it'll probably happen sooner than you think.

There are bigger reasons GOW type games aren't falling onto iPhone. Don't forget the small issue of controls. Apple's self-indulgence, translated into "no buttons for you" doesn't make certain types of games easy to adapt to the iPhone. Hence the boom in casual games, which are hardly demanding on control schemes. Not necessarily a bad thing, if you have an open mind and can do without epic action titles.

And specs never translate to real-world performance. Anyone who used to pour over the triangle count of up-coming console specs should know this from experience.

System architecture alone plays a big part in what you can and can't have. Your PSP and DS aren't running in a sandbox with a whole OS sitting in the background doing stuff, and the PSP in particular has had years of firmware upgrades to get where it is now.
I have to agree that controls are a limitation. But at the same time, I think a lot of people would have been up at arms if Apple had stuck a bunch of buttons on the Touch, where many people are still just looking to play music and watch videos. Was Belkin rumoured to be working on a button sleeve? Apple doesn't have to make one themselves, but they could certainly define the standard and the APIs so that all third-party button sleeves will be application compatible.

And in terms of high-end games, it's probably just a matter of development time. Apple wasn't actively courting launch titles as gaming devices usually have so nobody really got a head start. And I'm sure uncertainty over how successful the Touch/iPhone would be and the openness of app development all promoted caution rather than rushing into things.

[fat phil]

I have to agree that controls are a limitation. But at the same time, I think a lot of people would have been up at arms if Apple had stuck a bunch of buttons on the Touch, where many people are still just looking to play music and watch videos. Was Belkin rumoured to be working on a button sleeve? Apple doesn't have to make one themselves, but they could certainly define the standard and the APIs so that all third-party button sleeves will be application compatible.

Indeed - it is what it is. Not sure how well any sleeves will take off - they'd have to be pretty successful to be adopted by the majority, or even just one or two bigger developers. I don't think I'd consider spending time (and money) developing for something if it doesn't warrant the capital returns.

And in terms of high-end games, it's probably just a matter of development time. Apple wasn't actively courting launch titles as gaming devices usually have so nobody really got a head start. And I'm sure uncertainty over how successful the Touch/iPhone would be and the openness of app development all promoted caution rather than rushing into things.

The bandwagon bumrush isn't over yet - there's a lot of uncertainty with publishers we talk to regarding target pricing and numbers. They're nervous because they're suddenly not needed (as much) anymore - it's much easier for a dev to make one or two small games on the back of the funding they're getting for their AAA console titles. It won't be long before we see some bigger games coming out of the woodwork - stuff paid for by the half dozen "bread and butter" 59p titles. There are some great opportunities with the App Store model; I really hope it sticks for the long term because the future will be a much brighter place for gamers and developers alike.

Well, those devs who actually manage to sell their bread baskets anyway.

[christian_k]

It's not just cost. There's nothing stopping anyone with money in the bank from making a $30 iPhone game, and it'll probably happen sooner than you think.


We have discussed this in the company. At the moment everyone expects iPhone games to be cheap and even a lot of the "better" titles have been reduced in price quickly. Of course, prices up to $999 are possible in the store, but we consider the risk of making a "bigger" project as too high.


There are bigger reasons GOW type games aren't falling onto iPhone. Don't forget the small issue of controls. Apple's self-indulgence, translated into "no buttons for you" doesn't make certain types of games easy to adapt to the iPhone. Hence the boom in casual games, which are hardly demanding on control schemes. Not necessarily a bad thing, if you have an open mind and can do without epic action titles.


I did not mean a game of the same genere as GOW, but games at the same level of quality. I do not think iPhone can offer the same quality as PSP, but it can offer quality superior to DS. This is not limited to casual games, I think strategy games or RPGs could be played well with a touchscreen only.

But still, controls are a limiting factor. But specialized game systems have limitations, too. A PS3 does not usually have a keyboard, which is a problem for some games.


And specs never translate to real-world performance. Anyone who used to pour over the triangle count of up-coming console specs should know this from experience.
System architecture alone plays a big part in what you can and can't have. Your PSP and DS aren't running in a sandbox with a whole OS sitting in the background doing stuff, and the PSP in particular has had years of firmware upgrades to get where it is now.

I am a licensed developer for Wii, so I do know something about that. Of course it has an operating system and APIs that are very lightweight and optimized for performance and you have much more control over the system, nothing else is running etc. This is an obvious advantage when compared to a similar spec PC. But does how does it compare against a current gaming PC (that has an OS of even higher complexity than iPod touch)? Decide for yourself.

Christian

[twoodcc]

wow, i wonder if this could mean that an updated iphone is coming sooner than june of next year? it makes me want to get a new ipod touch