Kevin Cooper: Execution should be cruel and unusual

[splashman]

This story is making me as mad as I ever get.

Kevin Cooper was a convicted burglar, kidnapper and rapist. In 1983, he escaped a minimum-security prison in California. Around midnight one Saturday night, he broke into the home of the Ryen family, which happened to be near his hideout. Using a machete, hatchet and ice pick, he brutally killed father Frank, mother Peggy, 10-year-old daughter Jessica, and 11-year-old Christopher Hughes, best friend of 8-year-old Joshua Ryen. This innocent little boy woke up to the sound of screams, got out of bed, and in the dark, tripped over the dead body of his sister in the hallway. He was then slashed in the throat, smashed in the head with a machete, and suffered ice-pick wounds to his back. He was found approx. 11 hours after the attack, still pressing his hand to the throat wound, lying near the naked and mutilated body of his mother.

Joshua barely survived. Each of the bodies suffered 30-50 separate knife and machete wounds. Blood had splattered all over the walls, and the carpet was soaked with it. The father of Christopher Hughes discovered the gruesome scene when he became concerned that his son hadn't come home after church that morning.

Can you imagine being in that father's shoes? Can you imagine what lasting effects that boy has suffered? Can you imagine what it was like in the last moments of life for those poor victims? No! I can't either! It makes me sick to my stomach just to think about it.

20 years later, Cooper is still sleazing his way through the justice system, with the help of Lanny Davis, a sleazy lawyer infamous for his sleazy defense of President Bubba Clinton. Cooper narrowly avoided a Feb. 10 execution, thanks to the last-minute intervention of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (of course!) and the U.S. Supreme court.

I am the father of two young girls. My blood boils at the thought of such a horrendous crime. There MUST be justice. This murderer MUST die. No method of execution is too painful for the piece of genetic trash that did this. For my own sanity, I must believe Cooper will eventually be executed, but unfortunately, he will not suffer as his victims did. And justice for Joshua and all of the victims' families will have come more than 20 years later than it should have.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by splashman
I am the father of two young girls. My blood boils at the thought of such a horrendous crime. There MUST be justice. This murderer MUST die.

So go kill him. Play God.

Just leave his blood off our hands.

[Sayhey]

I know the Innocence Project has shown that over 100 of the inmates on Death Row (I believe that is the latest figure) were in fact innocent of the crimes they were convicted of. I also understand there is some doubt about Cooper's guilt - at least enough to make federal courts stay his execution. I don't see how killing someone who might not have done the crime helps at all. In fact I don't see how any execution helps at all, but then I'm against the Death Penalty. If he is guilty he should stay in prison for the rest of his life - killing him will not bring that poor family back. By the way I'm the father of two children as well.

[splashman]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
So go kill him. Play God.

Just leave his blood off our hands.

Kevin Cooper played God by ending the life of four innocent people.

I'm not playing God. I'm asking for justice, under the laws of the land.

[splashman]

Originally posted by Sayhey
I know the Innocence Project has shown that over 100 of the inmates on Death Row (I believe that is the latest figure) were in fact innocent of the crimes they were convicted of. I also understand there is some doubt about Cooper's guilt - at least enough to make federal courts stay his execution. I don't see how killing someone who might not have done the crime helps at all. In fact I don't see how any execution helps at all, but then I'm against the Death Penalty. If he is guilty he should stay in prison for the rest of his life - killing him will not bring that poor family back. By the way I'm the father of two children as well.

Being against the death penalty, you, along with the Innocence Project and most of Hollyweird, will grasp at anything and everything to support your pre-ordained conclusion.

I am neither for nor against the death penalty. I demand justice, however. Without it, our country is doomed.

I've looked at everything available on this case. For every question, there are 10 pieces of solid evidence. Cooper is guilty. Period.

One day I will stand before God and account for everything I've done. In this case, if it was in my hands to mete out justice, I would risk Cooper's blood on my hands.

Cooper has blood on his hands. If justice is denied, the blood of his victims is on the hands of those who fought against justice. (That means you!)

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by splashman
Being against the death penalty, you, along with the Innocence Project and most of Hollyweird, will grasp at anything and everything to support your pre-ordained conclusion.

I am neither for nor against the death penalty. I demand justice, however. Without it, our country is doomed.

I've looked at everything available on this case. For every question, there are 10 pieces of solid evidence. Cooper is guilty. Period.

One day I will stand before God and account for everything I've done. In this case, if it was in my hands to mete out justice, I would risk Cooper's blood on my hands.

Cooper has blood on his hands. If justice is denied, the blood of his victims is on the hands of those who fought against justice.

First, kindly don't tell me what I will "grasp" at along with "Hollyweird" (who the heck is that?) You haven't a clue what I will or won't do, so save the slurs.

Second, I'm glad you have come to the conclusion that Cooper is guilty. Evidently, the people who make such decisions in the justice system think there is room for doubt. I will accept their judgment over yours without much more proof from you.

Lastly, I know of no one who thinks justice shouldn't be done in this case. It is obvious that some folks differ from your opinion just what constitutes justice.

[splashman]

Originally posted by Sayhey
First, kindly don't tell me what I will "grasp" at along with "Hollywierd" (who the heck is that?) You haven't a clue what I will or won't do, so save the slurs.

Second, I'm glad you have come to the conclusion that Cooper is guilty. Evidently, the people who make such decisions in the justice system think there is room for doubt. I will accept their judgment over yours without much more proof from you.

Lastly, I know of no one who thinks justice shouldn't be done in this case. It is obvious that some folks differ from your opinion just what constitutes justice.

I didn't specify what you were grasping; only that you are obviously grasping at something, if only a misguided belief that "bringing that poor family back" is the only possible justification for execution.

"Hollyweird" is a reference to the feel-good celebrity morons like Mike Farrell who are organizing the "Save Kevin" rallies. I'm surprised you haven't joined in.

Yes, it's very obvious your definition of justice is different than mine. Yours is the same as that of the "justice" system that acquitted O.J. Mine is the same as that of the Ryen and Hughes families.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by splashman
Kevin Cooper played God by ending the life of four innocent people.

And now's your chance to do the same to him. Go kill him.

I'm not playing God. I'm asking for justice, under the laws of the land.

You're asking the government to play God for you.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by splashman
"Hollyweird" is a reference to the feel-good celebrity morons like Mike Farrell who are organizing the "Save Kevin" rallies. I'm surprised you haven't joined in.

WTF? You're "surprised he hasn't joined in? How the **** would you know the first thing about him, let alone know enough to equate him with "morons"?

Are you Pro-Life?

[edesignuk]

That truly is sickening, I'd support and method of death for this particular person, so long as it was slow, and painful. He deserves all he gets.
Who care's about all this playing god BS, what he is done is beyond words, and there is (I assume?) absolutely no doubt it was him. So go ahead, play god, and kill this bastard however you like.

edit: oh, and btw, if/when they do it, I'd like to be there laughing in his face eating pop corn. ********* a-hole.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by edesignuk
So go ahead, play god, and kill this bastard however you like.

I've encouraged him to do so on his own.

But not hiding behind the State and cloaking it in notions of "justice." Just one man killing another for revenge. Murder. Be my guest.

[splashman]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
You're asking the government to play God for you.

Do you know this God of whom you speak?

That's a rhetorical question, if it weren't obvious. You clearly have no clue what true justice is.

[splashman]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
But not hiding behind the State and cloaking it in notions of "justice." Just one man killing another for revenge. Murder. Be my guest.

First you tell me to play God and kill him. Then you tell me I'm hiding behind the state. Interesting chain of logic, that. You sound like you're about to go postal yourself.

Here's an idea: read my previous posts. "In this case, if it was in my hands to mete out justice, I would risk Cooper's blood on my hands."

Revenge, eh? Is that what you'd call it if it were YOUR family laying in pools of their own blood?

[Sayhey]

splashman, my suggestion is that you need some way to deal with all the anger you have about this case. Talk to someone, a priest, a psychiatrist, a friend - but this amount of anger is not healthy.

If you want a rational debate about this case or about the death penalty then come back some time when you don't feel the need to call strangers names and accuse them of things you don't know anything about. I'll be here and will gladly have that reasoned debate. Good luck.

[splashman]

Originally posted by Sayhey
splashman, my suggestion is that you need some way to deal with all the anger you have about this case. Talk to someone, a priest, a psychiatrist, a friend - but this amount of anger is not healthy.

If you want a rational debate about this case or about the death penalty then come back some time when you don't feel the need to call strangers names and accuse them of things you don't know anything about. I'll be here and will gladly have that reasoned debate. Good luck.

Ha ha. Run away, run away!!!!!

If you cannot feel anger about this case, you're the one that's ripe for the shrink's couch.

Sickening.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by splashman
Ha ha. Run away, run away!!!!!

If you cannot feel anger about this case, you're the one that's ripe for the shrink's couch.

Sickening.

I think you are proving my point.

[zapp]

First of all they just stayed the execution, they didn't release him. I believe they wanted dna testing on the hair or something. Now are justice system is there to protect the innocent, and punish the guilty. And capital punishment is final, so i think we should be certain of guilt. So the stay just shows me that are justice system is working.

[splashman]

Originally posted by Sayhey
I think you are proving my point.

You suggested a reason why I might need a trip to a psychiatrist. I suggested a reason why you might.

Which point am I proving?

Give me a break. Either come down from your ivory tower or go away, as you already claimed you would.

[splashman]

Originally posted by zapp
First of all they just stayed the execution, they didn't release him. I believe they wanted dna testing on the hair or something. Now are justice system is there to protect the innocent, and punish the guilty. And capital punishment is final, so i think we should be certain of guilt. So the stay just shows me that are justice system is working.

20 years and counting, dude. This is working?

I've done a huge amount of reading on this. The hair is one of many, many stalling tactics. You should see some of Davis' petitions. Included among them is the claim that death by lethal injection is cruel and unusual.

Read about it. Please.

[Sayhey]

Every time there is a case of some horrific murder, like the recent case of the young girl in Florida, or now the Kevin Cooper execution it seems that their are those on these boards who need to vent their spleen about how they would like to kill the accused personally. I have every sympathy for the many, many of us who feel for the victims of these horrible crimes and most especially sympathy for the victims themselves. However, the turning of forums into virtual lynch mobs, or at least the attempt to, is more of an example of the powerlessness we all feel in trying to prevent such crimes.

What is needed is a real striving for justice, and I'm afraid justice in not about impotent rage. It is about reasoned action to protect society, not the cry for blood. Justice implies the need to make sure that the State punishes only the guilty. Justice demands that we measure the punishment of society to what is not cruel and unusual. For those reasons, I'm against the death penalty. If Cooper is guilty, as I said before, I have no problem with him spending the rest of his life in a cell.

[Neserk]

I fail to see how killing a person will bring justice. If that is justice I don't want it.

That is like hitting a child who hit another child to tell them that hitting is wrong. :rolleyes:

In situations such as these there is no justice that can be done. Assuming the man is actually guilty for committing those murders, murdering him isn't going to do anyone any good. It will not bring closure, just emptiness and confusion for why murdering him didn't bring a feeling of justice.

Capital Punishment is not justice it is revenge. It is evil.

*shudders at the thought of the government murdering its citizens under any circumstances*

[Neserk]

Originally posted by Sayhey
Every time there is a case of some horrific murder, like the recent case of the young girl in Florida, or now the Kevin Cooper execution it seems that their are those on these boards who need to vent their spleen about how they would like to kill the accused personally. I have every sympathy for the many, many of us who feel for the victims of these horrible crimes and most especially sympathy for the victims themselves. However, the turning of forums into virtual lynch mobs, or at least the attempt to, is more of an example of the powerlessness we all feel in trying to prevent such crimes.

What is needed is a real striving for justice, and I'm afraid justice in not about impotent rage. It is about reasoned action to protect society, not the cry for blood. Justice implies the need to make sure that the State punishes only the guilty. Justice demands that we measure the punishment of society to what is not cruel and unusual. For those reasons, I'm against the death penalty. If Cooper is guilty, as I said before, I have no problem with him spending the rest of his life in a cell.

I wish I had read your statement before posting my own. When the little girl from San Diego met with a similar fate to the one in Florida a few years ago my anger and helplessness led me to say "I'd make an exception for him" (meaning I'd sentence him to death). I of course realize that that is my emotions speaking, my feelings of helplessness and anger about the situation.

Anyway, eloquently said, Sayhey.

[numediaman]

I come this from a different angle -- I see this issue as a question of limited, or unlimited, government power. I don't wish to give the government the power to administer the death penalty.

I also want them to run a balanced budget (with wiggle room), not to intrude into the bedrooms of its citizens, to follow the constitution when it comes to waging war (Congress must "declare" war), etc.

Back to the death penalty: trying to administer "justice" is always difficult. Is the death penalty justice for this guy? Maybe drawing and quartering is more just. But we all recognize that there are limits to what we will allow government to do in the name of justice (and in our name). I draw the line at life and death. Many, obviously, do not.

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by splashman
Kevin Cooper played God by ending the life of four innocent people.

I'm not playing God. I'm asking for justice, under the laws of the land.

First, no one here is saying that the murder of those four people is anything but a terrible horrible awful evil. No one. So stop acting like we have no compassion for the situation.

Second, while you seem completely convinced that he is guilty, what if (for the sake of argument only, i don't know one thing about this case) he wasn't guilty? In this case I understand that that might not be true, but lets say for the sake of argument it was. Ok so he isn't guilty and they kill him. Isn't that just as wrong?

That is the reason why the death penalty takes so long, because if it didn't the chances that you might kill someone who is innocent are too high. How do you make up for that? You can't make them alive again.

Frankly I think the death penalty is a terrible idea. Not just because I don't like the idea of killing in order to punish killing. And not only because I don't think it works as a deterent. Mostly because of what I said above, you can't take it back. So why don't we just lock him up in a room with no contact to the outside, solitary confinement, whatever AND IGNORE HIM. He wants noteriety, he wants to be known, and the best thing to do would be to just forget he even existed, let him grow old and die, in prison.

Killing this many won't bring back those people. Killing him isn't justice, its vengence, there is a difference, I suggest you look it up splashman.

You can accuse me of being insensitive and what not all you want. But I think that the people who make these decisions shouldn't be merely swayed by anger. If that is how you think things should be you are living in the wrong era and in the wrong country. Better to have a hundred guilty men escape the death penalty than an innocent man be put to death.

[vwcruisn]

Theres a similar thread going on in the current events regarding the death penalty and the girl who was abducted and killed in florida.


link (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59349&perpage=25&pagenumber=1)

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by splashman
Ha ha. Run away, run away!!!!!

If you cannot feel anger about this case, you're the one that's ripe for the shrink's couch.

Sickening.

WTF? You're awfully confontational and pissy.

You came in here for a fight.

I smell a troll.

[Desertrat]

Stipulate for the moment a case as clearcut as that of Sirhan Sirhan murdering RFK. Zero doubt whatsoever.

In such a certainty, I have no objection to the death penalty. I would only have an aobjection to lengthy series of appeals. The only valid appeal, to me, would have to do with the issue of the protection of S.S.'s legal rights during the trial.

I don't see hanging, firing squad, lethal injection or hot squat as revenge. I could be persuaded it's "justice". But for sure, the guy isn't going to be a further danger to society. And a clear-cut murderer just isn't worth $30,000 a year for maintenance, to me.

I was raised to believe, "Some folks just need killin'," and I've seen nothing in the last half-century or so to change that attitude. Folks who do bad know the deal before they do it. They have the option of self-control; if they don't excercise it, shame on'em.

'Rat

[Thanatoast]

Desrtrat, I have a question. How do you know when "some folks just need killin'"? I mean, does it have to be ugly murders? What about "clean" murders? Bullet to the back of the head-like. No suffering, just death. Shoot, does it even have to be murders at all? How about the bosses at Enron who duped their stockholders and lost billions of dollars? Thousands of people lost their livelyhoods and retirement plans. Does that count? What about (and this is treading on supposition, here) Bush? His lies and fear-mongering started a war which killed 5** Americans so far, and thousands of civilians. Does he deserve the death penalty?

I just don't think that there is any equitable way to administer the death penalty, nor does it constitute justice. Murder for murder seems kind of counter-productive. In fact, in my sig Hobbes speaks on the very issue.

ps. didn't mean to pick on you or anything, sorry

[Desertrat]

Thanatoast, the saying is much more local in nature. There are some people who are unending trouble to their neighbors and the community. Unending theft and cheating and fighting-drunk-bully behavior. The sort who will unendingly do anything they think they can get away with, with no respect for the concepts of law and the rights of others.

You can't reform them. They won't learn on their own to behave and "do right". They're often clever enough to never do more than short terms in the pokey. They're just unending trouble.

They just dammit need killin'.

Ask any cop with some years of experience on the street...

While we differ in our views of Bush, I wouldn't be at all upset if somebody fed Ken Lay a rough-on-rats sandwich or gave him a 12-gauge enema...

:), 'Rat

[splashman]

Originally posted by Krizoitz
First, no one here is saying that the murder of those four people is anything but a terrible horrible awful evil. No one. So stop acting like we have no compassion for the situation.

Second, while you seem completely convinced that he is guilty, what if (for the sake of argument only, i don't know one thing about this case) he wasn't guilty? In this case I understand that that might not be true, but lets say for the sake of argument it was. Ok so he isn't guilty and they kill him. Isn't that just as wrong?

That is the reason why the death penalty takes so long, because if it didn't the chances that you might kill someone who is innocent are too high. How do you make up for that? You can't make them alive again.

Frankly I think the death penalty is a terrible idea. Not just because I don't like the idea of killing in order to punish killing. And not only because I don't think it works as a deterent. Mostly because of what I said above, you can't take it back. So why don't we just lock him up in a room with no contact to the outside, solitary confinement, whatever AND IGNORE HIM. He wants noteriety, he wants to be known, and the best thing to do would be to just forget he even existed, let him grow old and die, in prison.

Killing this many won't bring back those people. Killing him isn't justice, its vengence, there is a difference, I suggest you look it up splashman.

You can accuse me of being insensitive and what not all you want. But I think that the people who make these decisions shouldn't be merely swayed by anger. If that is how you think things should be you are living in the wrong era and in the wrong country. Better to have a hundred guilty men escape the death penalty than an innocent man be put to death.

If you'd like to donate money toward a murderer's room and board, feel free. Don't demand that I do the same.

You say the death penalty can't be "taken back". Neither can the lives of the innocent be given back. Even worse than the possibility of executing innocents is that a society becomes convinced that life is too sacred to execute a murderer. Don't try to convince me 2+2=5.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Desertrat
They just dammit need killin'.


So how many have you bagged for yourself 'Rat?

[splashman]

Originally posted by Sayhey
Every time there is a case of some horrific murder, like the recent case of the young girl in Florida, or now the Kevin Cooper execution it seems that their are those on these boards who need to vent their spleen about how they would like to kill the accused personally. I have every sympathy for the many, many of us who feel for the victims of these horrible crimes and most especially sympathy for the victims themselves. However, the turning of forums into virtual lynch mobs, or at least the attempt to, is more of an example of the powerlessness we all feel in trying to prevent such crimes.

What is needed is a real striving for justice, and I'm afraid justice in not about impotent rage. It is about reasoned action to protect society, not the cry for blood. Justice implies the need to make sure that the State punishes only the guilty. Justice demands that we measure the punishment of society to what is not cruel and unusual. For those reasons, I'm against the death penalty. If Cooper is guilty, as I said before, I have no problem with him spending the rest of his life in a cell.

It is precisely the inability to feel rage toward injustice that dooms a society to indolent impotence.

Recently, a man in South Africa was caught in the act of raping a very young child. He was taken by relatives and castrated, without the use of surgical tools or anesthetic. This is my notion of justice. Immediate and befitting the crime.

In your utopian vision of endless court appeals, this rapist would be released on a technicality, sue the victim, and sell the movie rights. And Josh Ryen and the Hughes family would pay taxes to improve Cooper's cable TV reception.

Again, sickening.

I only hope you someday have a chance to reap the benefits of your perversion of justice.

[splashman]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
WTF? You're awfully confontational and pissy.

You came in here for a fight.

I smell a troll.

In the pool of intellect, you're in over your head. Go back and play in the kiddie pool.

[Thanatoast]

splashman, it is precisely the inability of society to temper rage with considered thought that leads to its destruction through anarchy. We follow the rules we do so that when it comes around to us, we hope the same rules will be followed on our behalf. It's part of living in society, and not some kind of conspiracy to bring about the fall of civilization by "indolent impotence".

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by splashman
It is precisely the inability to feel rage toward injustice that dooms a society to indolent impotence.

Recently, a man in South Africa was caught in the act of raping a very young child. He was taken by relatives and castrated, without the use of surgical tools or anesthetic. This is my notion of justice. Immediate and befitting the crime.

In your utopian vision of endless court appeals, this rapist would be released on a technicality, sue the victim, and sell the movie rights. And Josh Ryen and the Hughes family would pay taxes to improve Cooper's cable TV reception.

Again, sickening.

I only hope you someday have a chance to reap the benefits of your perversion of justice.

Splashman,

have you ever read Aeschylus' Oresteia? The problem of surrendering as a society to the blood feud is at least as old as his play some 2400 years ago. We as part of Western Civilization (other traditions did the same) turned away from your notion of "justice" at least that long ago.

Anger is understandable and it is part of the spectrum of reactions we as human beings feel when such crimes occur. It is, however, not the basis for sound government, law, or punishment. Your anger towards me, in hoping I "reap the benefits" of my "perversion of justice" is unhealthy. If you can wish that fate on an anonymous stranger because I disagree with you on the justice of the death penalty, then you do indeed need professional help.

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by splashman
If you'd like to donate money toward a murderer's room and board, feel free. Don't demand that I do the same.

You say the death penalty can't be "taken back". Neither can the lives of the innocent be given back. Even worse than the possibility of executing innocents is that a society becomes convinced that life is too sacred to execute a murderer. Don't try to convince me 2+2=5.

So two wrong make a right huh? I'm not claiming, (which if you actually READ my initial post instead of just taking out of it what you wanted you would know) that what he did was right (if he did it). But as you said NOTHING can bring those poor people back to life. Not even killing him.

As for your second point, I don't want society executing anyone. And I don't think thats worse at all. I think that the only purpose execution serves is vengence, not justice.

Killing him doesn't bring them back, it only fuels your need to see violence done. Now I'm not saying you don't have a right to be angry, or be outraged, I would do the same, I gaurentee it. I might even want him dead for awhile. But that isn't justice its anger and vengence and it will only consume us and destroy us (cliche star wars reference avoided on purpose).

When you get people acting out of outrage who don't take the time to calm down you get mobs, and riots, and lynchings, and mistakes. I'd rather he rot in a cell and we have to pay a little bit more, than someone be executed who did no wrong.

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by splashman
It is precisely the inability to feel rage toward injustice that dooms a society to indolent impotence.

No one is claiming we shouldn't feel rage, we are just saying you shouldn't make decisions in rage, that you temper that rage WITH justice, and doing the right thing doesn't happen to often when you are angry.



In your utopian vision of endless court appeals, this rapist would be released on a technicality, sue the victim, and sell the movie rights. And Josh Ryen and the Hughes family would pay taxes to improve Cooper's cable TV reception.

Again, sickening.

I only hope you someday have a chance to reap the benefits of your perversion of justice.

Now that is just a childish way to argue. No one here is advocating that, that is just taking our arguments to absurd conclusions. I don't want endless appeals and him getting out on a technicallity. I want him in jail. To stay. Unless he can prove he was innocent. I think that jails are too posh right now and will agree with you on that. But only that. Criminals don't need cable tv.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by splashman
In the pool of intellect, you're in over your head. Go back and play in the kiddie pool.

Wooooo! You sure is ANGRY there fella! I suggest you go kill someone who's guilty of something to let off steam.

[Neserk]

Originally posted by splashman
[B]If you'd like to donate money toward a murderer's room and board, feel free. ]

It cost less to house a person for life than it does to execute them. Please don't spend my hard earned money killing people.

[Sparky's]

I find it interesting how a post leads to personal arguments. So many people lose sight of the issue. An opinion was stated on the fact that someone who was "believed" to have committed a horendous act was still after many years living in prison awaiting his demise.
1. If the S.O.B. did do the deed (as an overwhelming amount of facts point to) then give him what he gave his victims, slowly. ( I am a firm believer in an eye for an eye)
2. If for any reason the facts point to his innocence, then cut his ass loose and compensate him for his inconvenience. (HA)
But how, beyond any shodow of doubt can anyone be absolutely found guilty of a crime? Unless he says "I did it" and a witness can testify that "He did it" how can our justice system function properly?

Bottom Line...I hope he rots in hell and takes a long time getting there.
Yes count me pro death, and proud of it, for it's not God I play mearly His messenger.

[mactastic]

Witness statements have been notoriously innacurate at times. And what if the evidence of innocence comes to light to late? How do you compensate someone then? Would it be ok to make you the messenger to go apologize to them?

[Neserk]

Originally posted by mactastic
Witness statements have been notoriously innacurate at times. And what if the evidence of innocence comes to light to late? How do you compensate someone then? Would it be ok to make you the messenger to go apologize to them?

Too true. Eyewitnesses are the least reliable form of "evidence" there is.

[Taft]

Originally posted by splashman
It is precisely the inability to feel rage toward injustice that dooms a society to indolent impotence.

Recently, a man in South Africa was caught in the act of raping a very young child. He was taken by relatives and castrated, without the use of surgical tools or anesthetic. This is my notion of justice. Immediate and befitting the crime.

That is a horrible crime. However, the punishment is even more so. Sure, he was a very sick and bad person. But what right do we have to torture a fellow man?

That isn't justice. That is cold hearted vengence. There is a difference. As others have suggested, you should look it up. Anyone who believes that even the most evil of people should be tortured instead of killed quickly is a very sick person.

If you truely believe that God want them punished, LET GOD DO IT! He's going to Hell after death anyway, right? Making an evil man suffer only benefits those sick enough to enjoy such spectacles. It is an evil deed.

In your utopian vision of endless court appeals, this rapist would be released on a technicality, sue the victim, and sell the movie rights. And Josh Ryen and the Hughes family would pay taxes to improve Cooper's cable TV reception.

Again, sickening.

I only hope you someday have a chance to reap the benefits of your perversion of justice.

This is a completely invalid way to argue. You grossly stereotype a huge group of people, then apply that stereotype to Sayhey without knowing his beliefs and positions.

Do you really think Sayhey (or me, or any of the other anti-death penalty people on these boards) wants that scenario to come to pass? If so, you need a reality check. What Sayhey is advocating is a process under which we are 100% sure before we make take the ultimate step in ending a fellow man's life.

How many innocents put to death would be acceptable to you? Lets make up some figures. If 2% of all inmates put to death were innocent, would that be an acceptable rate? Could you tell that to the families of the men wrongfully put to death in the name of expedient justice?

I understand people want for justice to be executed. I even understand when people want vengence. I understand that when something horrible happens, hate, frustration and a need to control the situation through actions are all natural responses.

I don't, however, think that the government should sanction such feelings. Those feelings are not healthy. They are also often not justifiable feelings (ie. they are feelings rising from a needing someone to blame rather than as a result of evidence). Also, it has been shown time and time again, that acting on those feelings can actually be more damaging to a person rather than being therapudic.

I am perfectly willing to dicuss this topic with you, but you need to be civil. Don't get mad and start name calling and stereotyping. Stick to the facts and your beliefs.

Taft

[wwworry]

Maybe there should be total proof of guilt including a confession and the guilty party would have to do the deed himself. That's as far as I would go.

Killing eachother is wrong for whatever reason.