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arn
Feb 17, 2004, 08:32 AM
Apple's website now reflects a countdown to the iPod Mini's public release. The teaser page reads "iPod mini: The world's smallest 1,000 song digital music player. For Mac and Windows".

Apple also announced that the iPod mini has received over 100,000 pre-orders since its introduction in January. According to Phil Shiller, "The response to iPod mini has been off the charts".

As previously reported, the iPod Mini will be in stores February 20th at 6pm

ph8te
Feb 17, 2004, 08:34 AM
Just in Time for the weekend... 6 pm which time? US or where?

MattG
Feb 17, 2004, 08:34 AM
100,000 preorders...pretty impressive

ph8te
Feb 17, 2004, 08:44 AM
Now all Apple needs to work on is an elegant iPod-Dock for the car. Imagine putting all your fave tunes on the iPod and then docking it to your car-audio system... Way cool idea

robbieduncan
Feb 17, 2004, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by ph8te
Just in Time for the weekend... 6 pm which time? US or where?

Unless Apple have changed their roll out this is all US only. Europe (and I assume Australia, Asia and other teritories) are not coming out till March or April...

iggyb
Feb 17, 2004, 08:58 AM
Wow. I must say that 100,000 pre-orders are beyond what I thought the initial demand would be...nice!

I'm anxious to hear about the battery life and if they can hold up as well in jarring situations as a flash-memory player (such as working out).

crees!
Feb 17, 2004, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by ph8te
Now all Apple needs to work on is an elegant iPod-Dock for the car. Imagine putting all your fave tunes on the iPod and then docking it to your car-audio system... Way cool idea

Alpine has developed a stereo system where you can plug in and access your iPod. It reads the track info, your rating... it even recharges your iPod when connected.

Alpine iPod Ready (http://www.alpine-usa.com/company_info/press_release/010804_ipad.html)

With a simple one-cable connection, iPod users will be able to operate key playback features from the Alpine receiver's buttons and have display of playlists, album, artist and songs on the head unit. The iPod can then be safely stored in the glove box or console because it acts like a portable hard drive connected to the head unit through Alpine's powerful Ai-Net system bus. The Alpine connectivity solution also provides charging of the iPod's internal battery.

Lancetx
Feb 17, 2004, 09:02 AM
Apple also announced that the iPod mini has received over 100,000 pre-orders since its introduction in January. According to Phil Schiller, "The response to iPod mini has been off the charts".

So much for the predictions by some that it would be an overpriced flop...yet again Apple proves the critics wrong. :p

the_mole1314
Feb 17, 2004, 09:07 AM
I like the pre-order numbers. From what I've heard, the battery life actually exceedes the said 8 hours!

narco
Feb 17, 2004, 09:08 AM
Hopefully this will kill all the "$50 more for...", "the mini will do poorly" arguments.

rjwill246
Feb 17, 2004, 09:09 AM
Oh, now where were we...? Moments before this news came out I was reading the 'negativos' in these fora. I can barely type for the tears- and my sides are splitting....

garycruz
Feb 17, 2004, 09:16 AM
For those who rant that it is too expensive, doesn't mean that other's will not buy it. I've seen comparisons to the Cube, but we are talking a few hundred bucks here, not a thousand.

4GB Lexar Compact Flash = $1,080.00 (solid state memory)
4GB Hitachi Microdrive = $499.00 (stand alone CF hard drive)
4GB Creative Muvo = $299.00 (uses 4GB Hitachi MD)
4GB Apple iPod = $249.00 (uses 4GB Hitachi MD)
256MB iRock 860 = $150.00 (uses flash memory)

You really can't compare the iPod mini to the bigger brother because it isn't the SAME SIZE! You pay for all that technology crammed into a smaller space. I don't see why people don't get that?

As for the many different flash memory mp3 players out there, they don't even come close to 1gb for the price of the iPod mini. And their interfaces are not as elegant.

In fact, the 4gb muvo is considered "cheap" enough to take apart just for the flash drive!
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=7276581

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 17, 2004, 09:27 AM
its a regular M.O for Apple to charge a little more for a new product and then reduce price 6 months later. Lets stop the crying. If it says Apple it means you pay more for the best. This is S.O.P. I think those are nice numbers for a product that just shipped. I hope they come out with matching Imacs with a built in dock.

azdude
Feb 17, 2004, 09:40 AM
You really can't compare the iPod mini to the bigger brother because it isn't the SAME SIZE! You pay for all that technology crammed into a smaller space. I don't see why people don't get that?

Indeed. I quickly got tired of listening to people complain about the price. It's like:

"Who in their right mind would actually pay $24,000 for a BMW Mini when they could get a 325Ci Coupe for $30,500?!?? Man... BMW are idiots!!"

It's just ridiculous. Form factor does hold value for many people... Hard Drive size is not the only thing everyone cares about.

Spades
Feb 17, 2004, 09:53 AM
I wonder what sales of the original iPod have been like lately.

Sir_Giggles
Feb 17, 2004, 10:00 AM
Typically, the user who complains about price vs HD space ratios are the same typical PC user who would rather spend hours building their own PCs and spend hours getting their peripherals to work, so that they could save a few dollars off retail.

In doing so, they're making the same amount of money as a Chinese or Taiwanese assembler in a third world country, yet they value their money but not their time. Makes sense.

And to those who will wait for the iPod Minis to drop by at least $50, are really not interested in getting an mp3 player anyway. Their logic is so flawed. Here's the reason why. Suppose you decide to wait 6 months as is typical of Apple before they drop the price. Since they will be buying at $199, their logic is saying that for just $50 more... they would rather deny themselves portable music for 6 months? Break it down, that's about $8 a month (or about 25 cents a day) they are not willing to pay to have music. No wonder they won't buy! THEY ARE SO FRICKING CHEAP; as to not pay 25 cents to listen to their music. Obviously this tells you two things, 1) they don't value their music, 2) they are unbelievably cheap (or stupid).

So it's this logic which I find bemusing, when people say they are gonna wait until it drops $50 in price as if it's some sort of magic number. Why not $149, or $99 dollars before they buy. What a bunch of morons! You know who you are.

Dippo
Feb 17, 2004, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Sir_Giggles
Typically, the user who complains about price vs HD space ratios are the same typical PC user who would rather spend hours building their own PCs and spend hours getting their peripherals to work, so that they could save a few dollars off retail.

In doing so, they're making the same amount of money as a Chinese or Taiwanese assembler in a third world country, yet they value their money but not their time. Makes sense.

Some people just like to build computers and enjoy the time spent building and tweaking their systems. Also, you never know what you get when you buy a complete system from some vendors.

Also, I am not going to buy a mini iPod, because I just don't listen to music enough to justify the cost. (a $199 mini iPod wouldn't change that)

sparks9
Feb 17, 2004, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Spades
I wonder what sales of the original iPod have been like lately.

According to the Apple store the original iPod is not even among the 20 best selling products in the store, while the mini is nr. 1 (and has been since macworld).

eazyway
Feb 17, 2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by ph8te
Now all Apple needs to work on is an elegant iPod-Dock for the car. Imagine putting all your fave tunes on the iPod and then docking it to your car-audio system... Way cool idea


This is an absolute must. My next car needs to be able to dock an ipod.

iggyb
Feb 17, 2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Sir_Giggles
Typically, the user who complains about price vs HD space ratios are the same typical PC user who would rather spend hours building their own PCs and spend hours getting their peripherals to work, so that they could save a few dollars off retail.

In doing so, they're making the same amount of money as a Chinese or Taiwanese assembler in a third world country, yet they value their money but not their time. Makes sense.

And to those who will wait for the iPod Minis to drop by at least $50, are really not interested in getting an mp3 player anyway. Their logic is so flawed. Here's the reason why. Suppose you decide to wait 6 months as is typical of Apple before they drop the price. Since they will be buying at $199, their logic is saying that for just $50 more... they would rather deny themselves portable music for 6 months? Break it down, that's about $8 a month (or about 25 cents a day) they are not willing to pay to have music. No wonder they won't buy! THEY ARE SO FRICKING CHEAP; as to not pay 25 cents to listen to their music. Obviously this tells you two things, 1) they don't value their music, 2) they are unbelievably cheap (or stupid).

So it's this logic which I find bemusing, when people say they are gonna wait until it drops $50 in price as if it's some sort of magic number. Why not $149, or $99 dollars before they buy. What a bunch of morons! You know who you are.


Errrr......what the he// are you talking about? People that are saying about purchasing the iPod mini at $200 are referring to their price/value ratio in their heads. You can use that same argument if the iPod mini was introduced at $299, and dropping $50 in the next 6 months. It's about what the consumer decides is worth buying. Me, I purchased a 40GB iPod. Yes, it's expensive, but I think it's worth it. Obviously, many people don't. If the price dropped a hundred dollars, are the people that rush out and buy it morons because they could've been listening to it for 6 months now?

.a
Feb 17, 2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by sparks9
According to the Apple store the original iPod is not even among the 20 best selling products in the store, while the mini is nr. 1 (and has been since macworld).


does anybode believe in those charts ?┐! for sure ipod mini is nr 1, but all the other stuff ... it looks too weird to me ...
.a

ioinc
Feb 17, 2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Lancetx
So much for the predictions by some that it would be an overpriced flop...yet again Apple proves the critics wrong. :p

more of an overpriced success!

QCassidy352
Feb 17, 2004, 10:39 AM
Hopefully this will kill all the "$50 more for...", "the mini will do poorly" arguments.

There's a sucker born every minute.

pkradd
Feb 17, 2004, 10:47 AM
On sale at 6 PM means the local time from Pacific to Eastern and all in-between. East coasters get first dibbs on the mini.

wdlove
Feb 17, 2004, 10:57 AM
The pre-sale figure is very impressive. Selling like hot cakes certainly applies.

Now to see if the "all hands on deck" for the 20th will produce any other surprises.

iggyb
Feb 17, 2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by wdlove
The pre-sale figure is very impressive. Selling like hot cakes certainly applies.

Now to see if the "all hands on deck" for the 20th will produce any other surprises.

Excuse my ignorance, but what's the "all hands on deck" thing all about? Is there a press announcement?

silverone
Feb 17, 2004, 11:20 AM
If anyone is a student or teacher or works for a school or college and can show some ID - you get up to $50 off!!
Serious, look online at the Apple Store, check your local retail location or even check some online educational sales sites.
I called my local store and I can use a student discount on Friday.. FYI -silverone

lakhdip
Feb 17, 2004, 11:33 AM
100,000 units preordered represents just under $25 Million in revenue booked before a mini even touches a store shelf. That's mightily impressive.

ccuilla
Feb 17, 2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by iggyb
Errrr......what the he// are you talking about? People that are saying about purchasing the iPod mini at $200 are referring to their price/value ratio in their heads. You can use that same argument if the iPod mini was introduced at $299, and dropping $50 in the next 6 months. It's about what the consumer decides is worth buying. Me, I purchased a 40GB iPod. Yes, it's expensive, but I think it's worth it. Obviously, many people don't. If the price dropped a hundred dollars, are the people that rush out and buy it morons because they could've been listening to it for 6 months now?

I have to agree. Calling someone cheap or dumb over such a decision is a bit harsh. It is a value decision. For SOME people $499 for a digital music player is cheap and well worth the value. For SOME people $99 to TOO much and not worth the value at all. There are many factors involved including disposable income (a bit more scarce these days).

The point here is that Apple is very wisely selling the iPod Mini at $249 to the set of people for which $249 is a fair and reasonable value proposition. That may be 100,000, it may be 500,000. Next they'll work there way to the people that thing $199 is a fair and reasonable value proposition. That might be many more people. But in the mean time, they will have made another (assume 500,000 sold at $249) $25M is revenue (probably a large amount of profit). This is smart business. We should applaud them for this, since smart business people tend to STAY in business...and I want Apple to STAY in business.

(BTW...this last comment is a shot at anyone who says "I don't care about what Apple's making, profit-wise.")

nagromme
Feb 17, 2004, 12:59 PM
100,000 already sold... if profits are say $25 each (guess) then that's $2.5 million profits on $25 million sales. Plus accessories and iTunes downloads (which do now make Apple a slight profit).

This is BEFORE any of the following:

* Mini ads outside of Macworld

* Widespread press coverage and reviews

* People seeing them in stores or being able to touch them and try them

* People seeing other people with them

* People even knowing when they can get one

In other words, this is before many people have even had the chance to know the Mini exists!

Re: battery: I have now seen three reviews in the national press, ALL of which have said the mini's battery exceeds Apple's stated life significantly. 3rd-party iPod batteries start around $45 if you have a problem after warranty. Expect mini batteries too.

Re: profits: Apple said margins on the mini are a lower % than the iPod, which is 20%. That means it costs something more than $200 to make a mini. Apple's pricing is not artificial here. (And is the same or lower than lesser players.)

Re: $50 more for the iPod 15: Sure, a great choice for many--and that's a good upsell for Apple since the 15 makes them a higher % profit on a higher price! But if you don't need more HD space then the $50 isn't worth it for you.

Re: Active use: The armband option tells you it's meant for that, and skips (does anyone even care?) should be rare. Like all iPods, music is played from RAM cache, not from HD. The HD is used to load the cache. Yes, a flash player takes this further and makes skips impossible--but it can still be damaged by dropping, and you pay a LOT per MB for flash--besides giving up the benefits of an iPod. Flash is a poor compromise--and yet before the Mini, people were paying up to $300 for that, mainly to get a small case.

ioinc
Feb 17, 2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by lakhdip
100,000 units preordered represents just under $25 Million in revenue booked before a mini even touches a store shelf. That's mightily impressive.

Kind of reminds me of the glory days of the profit for the mac desktop.

Before windows was workable.. Apple made tons of money on expensive computers.

Of course we all know the story.. windows became workable.. and apple got relegated to a bit player with only a fractional market share.

Is history repeating itself.... will apple have a short glory period with huge profits on an expensive mp3 player only to get beat in the end by a 'workable' and 'inexpensive' machine made by another company?

Apple needs to do better if they don't want to see the iPod end up with sub 5% market share
(YES ... I UNDERSTAND THAT THE IPOD IS DOING WELL NOW!... please don't make a million posts about the current sales volume... it is no different than how well the desktop did in the late 80's)

They need to make a better product and sell it for less. That's what we as consumers want and demand. The vast majority (not including the majority of people that read these posts) will not pay a high premium just because it has the apple name.

If they want more profit.. figure out how to make it cost less to build. Nobody wants to hear sob stories about what it costs Apple corp. to make iPods or how fair the price is.

We want more product and we want it for less. If apple can't do it... someone else will.

Given the choice.. I would prefer that it be Apple that did it (I am the loyal owner of a new G5)

Until then Apple is just leaving the door open for someone else.

ehawk
Feb 17, 2004, 01:34 PM
Here is a nice preview of the mini....

http://www.mikesejournal.com/ipodmini.html

nagromme
Feb 17, 2004, 01:42 PM
"They need to make a better product and sell it for less. That's what we as consumers want and demand.

Some facts:

Nobody is making a better product for less. Mini's microdrive competitors cost the same or more--NOT less. Many Flash players with a FRACTION of the capacity cost the same or MORE. An Apple flash player that held 60 songs could be made cheaper, but would NOT be a better product. It would be a poor product, no matter how easy to use. And if people want an iPod 15 for $50 more, because the bigger ones are cheaper to make, then that too is great for Apple and Apple customers.

If Apple is greedy, then why are their margins on the mini less than on the iPod? Why does the mini cost over $200 to build?

The truth is that--FOR NOW--microdrives are expensive. They will get cheaper per GB, and the iPod Mini will too. The Mini has no "high premium just because it has the apple name."

Looking for Apple's doom here is pretty far-fetched :) A popular hobby, though.

pdrayton
Feb 17, 2004, 01:45 PM
I laughed at the many nay-sayers when iPod mini showed up as #1 on the Apple Store best sellers list.

Of course, the nay-sayers countered that Apple was fudging the figures.

I laugh again as I see that over 100,000 units have been pre-ordered before shipping has even commenced.

I'm sure the nay-sayers will think up something to explain the success of the iPod mini, and will also try to think up a reason for why the success will bite Apple in the end. If that makes you happy, fine :-)

My previous prediction on this board was that the iPod mini would not drop below $219 by June. I still stand by that prediction. Time will tell!

mashinhead
Feb 17, 2004, 02:19 PM
The product most threatened by the Mini is well the original iPod. The mini, overtime (we'll def. see a size increase before the end of the year) will only hold more, and cost less. it will replace the ipod before long. i mean personally i really have no reason to carry around 40GB worth of songs with me everyday. The only reason i would buy one of those would be to backup my music collection. It esentially has gone from mp3/harddrive to harddrive/mp3 player. Apple overthrew themselves.

Messiatosh
Feb 17, 2004, 02:27 PM
I am amazed at these numbers, I actually thought they would be higher but thats because I had nothing to go by. Everyone was saying that the mini's are too expensive, this and that bla bla...but I knew that Apple had hit the sweet spot. And Apple apparently has his the sweet spot in terms of pricing, coolness, capacity, and size.

What a wonderful product, mine just left Taiwan this morning and should hit U.S. land later today. Cant wait to have it on Friday and I'm just glad I ordered as soon as I did.

I like to lift weights and run, this will be a perfect companion/replacement for my old original iPod which I sold a while back in anticipation of the mini. I sold on the rumor and bought on fact, and I am about to reap the benefit of that gamble.

In my original forecast I said the mini would be Apple's best selling product of all time, I still think it will be. 100,000 down, 6,900,000 units to go.;)

Sir_Giggles
Feb 17, 2004, 02:35 PM
Apple hit a home run with the design, now, to not repeat history, they need to get the pricing down to $99. When HD prices fall and manufacturing becomes a matter of economies of scale, Apple will probably be able to sell 40 million units in North America alone.

What a better way to corner the market for iTunes music downloads, than to make the iPod Mini as ubiquitous as the Walkman. Apple, learn from past mistakes and please do not screw up now.

Jerry Spoon
Feb 17, 2004, 03:13 PM
I'm one of those 100,000. It seems I'm in good company.

And I'm betting that I convince at least two people to buy minis after mine comes in. I've already got people asking when it's coming just so they can see it and try it out.

Makosuke
Feb 17, 2004, 03:36 PM
You know what the smartest thing that Apple can do to hold onto the portable player market is? Have more than one product! Yes, imagine that, a mini for people who want a little thing, a classic for people who want a heftier one, and probably more models in the future. Sony sells more than one type of minidisc player, BMW sells more than one model of car, and Hitachi makes more than one kind of TV. Competitive pricing--which so far Apple is doing extremely well if you look at the competition--helps, but it's not everything.

Originally posted by pdrayton
I'm sure the nay-sayers will think up something to explain the success of the iPod mini, and will also try to think up a reason for why the success will bite Apple in the end.A quick look at the MacNN comments or similar places will illustrate that they already have--calling all of those 100,000 people idiots.

Personally, I'm not surprised by the mini's success. No, it's not the best value for everybody--some people really will benefit from the extra storage at a proportionally lower price. But it is a good value for some people, because it's small physically, but more than big enough inside (I don't own 4GB of music, nor am I likely to soon, so why wouldn't I buy one if I was actually in the market?).

These sales figures prove that--people want 'em. And just wait till the mini hits Japan--they're going to lap it up like nobody's business.

(By the way, if you don't have a heap of money to spare, and don't have a burning need for a new music player, then waiting for a player to hit your price point doesn't make you an idiot, it just means you'd rather spend that $50, or $100, or whatever, on a pile of music, or a video game, or food, or something you value more than the time between now and when the price drops.)

nargot
Feb 17, 2004, 04:26 PM
if you qualify for education discount in australia, you will get some money off the ipod mini (can't say how much cause it wont be released here until april) and you get 3 years applecare.....

On another note, finally apple.com has something other than the pepsi ad on the main page

edenwaith
Feb 17, 2004, 04:35 PM
There are some interesting comments here.

If someone is supposedly too stingy to buy an iPod mini now and wants to wait until it drops below $200, couldn't they also be stingy enough to not get an iPod and just use a Discman? My Discman cost $60, and it doesn't require a computer, and I can play any CD I want without worrying about disk storage. Yet, I got a good deal on a 10 GB iPod for under $200. I haven't touched my Discman since then. So, for some people, patience is a virtue and they don't mind waiting. Perhaps $50 isn't enough justification for waiting, but consider movies. I pretty much never go to the movie theaters, and a movie generally costs somewhere between $5-$10 to watch. Does that make me stupid because I don't want to spend/waste the money on watching a film once? Does it make economic sense to just rent the video and be able to watch it multiple times with friends and family, for a small fraction of everyone going to the theater.

I'm in the crowd which would like to see the iPod mini eventually go down in price. The iPod mini might be a good thing for my fiancee who does not own that much music, so 4 GB might work just fine for her.

It appears that Apple might be creating a consumer/pro line of the iPods. Inexpensive iPod minis for the more casual customer, and regular iPods for the more avid consumer who has a lot of music.

History may repeat itself yet once again (as with the Macintosh, Newton, etc.), but it appears that Apple has learned somewhat from its mistakes and they are taking a proactive approach to maintain their dominance in the MP3/portable music player field. However, I feel that they do need to be careful that they don't try and block everyone else off, or they might end up just having a niche MP3 player. Where Apple succeeded this time is that they were in the right place at the right time. The Newton was a good idea, but it just didn't come off as well as Apple had originally hoped. By the time the Newton line was killed, PDAs were finally taking off. It would have been interesting to have seen what would have happened had the Newton remained.

clr900
Feb 17, 2004, 05:16 PM
Am I retarded or is the countdown clock wrong? It says three days and 23 hours...isnt friday at 6 two days and 23 hours away?

ehawk
Feb 17, 2004, 05:29 PM
Nope, you're right and their site is wrong

nagromme
Feb 17, 2004, 05:32 PM
You're quite right, the countdown is wrong :D

Also, although the Mini is prices fairly (for the competition AND for Apple's costs), waiting is ALWAYS good with tech purchases. Things get better and cheaper. I'm personally resisting a Mini just to see what the 4G full iPod is like--whenever that may be. If it's aluminum, with a clickwheel, and some nifty new features, I might choose it over a Mini.

BTW, don't forget that engraving is still free, including on the Mini! So if you want that, the Mini is "on sale" from day one.

zellin
Feb 17, 2004, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Spoon
I'm one of those 100,000. It seems I'm in good company.

And I'm betting that I convince at least two people to buy minis after mine comes in. I've already got people asking when it's coming just so they can see it and try it out.
I've already convinced two people with just the paper cut-out.

Macmaniac
Feb 17, 2004, 06:49 PM
I want to get one, now just to wait for my next paycheck:cool:
100,001 iPods sold here we come

Steven1621
Feb 17, 2004, 07:49 PM
i was very skeptical at first of the mini, but i am sold now. it's size and improved battery life make it worth the money. once they drop the price down to 200, it will be the most popular player in the world.

clr900
Feb 17, 2004, 09:22 PM
I think it's funny how Apple still hasn't fixed their countdown on their homepage.

Nicky G
Feb 17, 2004, 09:27 PM
The mini is a joy to hold in your hand, plain and simple. It is slicker than the original, IMO -- for my needs and desires, at least. I strongly believe it will outsell the original. These pre-order numbers make that hunch seem more realistic.

nargot
Feb 17, 2004, 10:30 PM
the ipod release countdown is 100% correct with my time, maybe its fixed now

nagromme
Feb 17, 2004, 11:42 PM
Countdown's fixed :)

crees!
Feb 17, 2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Dippo
Also, I am not going to buy a mini iPod, because I just don't listen to music enough to justify the cost. (a $199 mini iPod wouldn't change that)

Then it sounds like a portable CD player is the answer for you, which I'm sure you already have. It's all about what you need, not want. Though wants are nice to have every so often.

Chad C
Feb 18, 2004, 12:25 AM
I checked out Apples Edu site and it lists the Mini at $229 thats a $20 savings(someone above listed them as $50 off for edu). Are they selling them for $50 less that night at Apple Stores I am going to check out the local one on friday but I am curious to where the $50 is coming from exactly?

Ravenflight
Feb 18, 2004, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by nagromme
Countdown's fixed :)
I just hit refresh and it still says 3 days, 19:01 to go. By my calculations that's one day too many!!! It seems iPod fever has even affected Apple's ability to count! :D

grouse
Feb 18, 2004, 06:13 AM
aaaarrrrrggghhh!

As an inhabitant of the rest of the world, I am watching the countdown on the main apple site with increasing frustration, whatever the real clock should be.

I loved the size, colour and look of these things ever since they were announced and had a good hunch they were going to be big (Saleswise) and I agree that the Japanese micro-technology-loving market may well go crazy for them. But why do we have to wait in the UK? Does anyone know? Is it simply a supply problem, ie they can't make them fast enough? Or is there something technologically different like a PAL/NTSC thing going on? I don't want to wait until April. I bought my fiancÚ a first gen iPod for christmas one year ago and am now exceedingly jealous.

So, my point is....

Can I order one from the US site? Pay for it myself, or wire someone the money, and get it delivered over here? Is there anyone willing to help me with this? And would it work fine? Or would I be doing something terribly illegal?

If so, apologies arn for me even mentioning it.

IndyGopher
Feb 18, 2004, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by grouse
aaaarrrrrggghhh!

As an inhabitant of the rest of the world, I am watching the countdown on the main apple site with increasing frustration, whatever the real clock should be.


Can I order one from the US site? Pay for it myself, or wire someone the money, and get it delivered over here? Is there anyone willing to help me with this? And would it work fine? Or would I be doing something terribly illegal?

If so, apologies arn for me even mentioning it.
No, you can't order one from the US site. However, you will undoubtedly be able to buy them on eBay within an hour of their release. This is a pretty common thing, actually, with products being released at different times around the world. People often comment that "idiots on eBay" buy "used" items for "as much or more" as they could buy them in the store. Of course, these critics often ignore the point that not everyone CAN buy them in stores.. the iPod mini being a perfect example. If anyone is sitting on a tax refund or other stack of cash they would like to make a 10% return on in a week or so, buying every iPod mini they see and selling them internationally on eBay would be an easy way to do it.
As to legality, there is nothing different, as far as I know, about the US version of the mini and those sold elsewhere, so there should be no export restrictions. However, getting warranty work done would probably be a good trick.
If anyone knows differently, please post.

billyboy
Feb 18, 2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by IndyGopher
there is nothing different, as far as I know, about the US version of the mini and those sold elsewhere, so there should be no export restrictions. However, getting warranty work done would probably be a good trick.
If anyone knows differently, please post.

I may be wrong, but I thought I read that one generation or other of the iPods sold in Europe was quieter than the US version, as a concession to delicate EU ear drum laws. Maybe the Euro-sound police will do you for abusing your own ears, and if they are French police, they might even confiscate your "e"pod.

technocoy
Feb 18, 2004, 09:48 AM
for anyone who thinks they don't like it... hold one.

my buddy at work got his today from taiwan, and i will now be buying one inaddition to my 30gig once i can scrape up the cash. it is truly tiny and the scroll wheel is great. the main benefit i see is that i will be able to actually carry it in my pocket without worrying about scratches! (put a little PDA screen protector on the lcd) i'm stoked. it is barely larger than my t610. and actually has a smaller perceived size.

just thought i'd let everyone know that they are sweet in person. i'm pissed because i was already sure i didn't want one, now i do!

technocoy

mara
Feb 18, 2004, 10:03 AM
Hmm... I actually ordered one through eBay... everything seems fine this far... I hope I will get my mini next week =) They are selling quite many new stuff on eBay too, not just used items...

Captnroger
Feb 18, 2004, 10:39 AM
Are any other national retailers (ie, CompUSA) going to have them at 6pm on Friday?

Sir_Giggles
Feb 18, 2004, 11:32 AM
I live in Vancouver, and am thinking of driving 2 hours to the Seattle store in the University Plaza.

There, I can pick up a silver iPod mini and drive back to the border. The only catch I guess is I would have to throw away the packaging so customs doesn't charge me duty if they ever decide to search my car, which is happening alot lately.

kirk26
Feb 18, 2004, 11:42 AM
Expected ship date for CompUSA is March 1, 2004.

Originally posted by Captnroger
Are any other national retailers (ie, CompUSA) going to have them at 6pm on Friday?

Skiniftz
Feb 18, 2004, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by clr900
Am I retarded or is the countdown clock wrong? It says three days and 23 hours...isnt friday at 6 two days and 23 hours away?
The countdown is based on the clock in YOUR computer, therefore your computer clock is wrong.

You can have some fun if you alter the system clock time and watch the timer alter in real time from apple.com.

Once it reaches 0:00 then it just says "....

You want me to spoil the surprise? ;)

humara
Feb 18, 2004, 12:38 PM
Well, the wait is over for me. My ipod mini just arrived via taiwan, alaska, indianopolis and finally Los Angeles.
Its so worth it (to me) for the size of the mini. I know i could have spend $50 more and gotten another ipod. or spent 50 less and gotten some lame creative muvo thing or whatever.
But the mini is awesome, and i just filled it with my weekly listening choice.
Keep watching that counter on the apple site!

Ravenflight
Feb 18, 2004, 12:54 PM
I think it's interesting that so many people think the mini is overpriced and then proceed to compare Apples to Oranges :D Or in this case mini's to iPod's. Consumers have ALWAYS been willing to pay a premium for size- wasn't it just a few years ago that people were paying 2000.00 for a Motorola flip phone because it was all of 2 ounces lighter and half an inch thinner than the 200.00 Nokia? Look at laptops- A lot of consumers will pay a hundreds more and put up with a slower CPU and less memory just to have a laptop that is a couple ounces lighter and smaller.

I see the mini at 249.00 as a bargain. Sure I'd like it if they were cheaper. And while I'm wishing for pipe dreams, I also wish the Mini Cooper didn't cost as much as a full size car. Personally I hope Apple sells a mountain of these things and then hopefully they'll reinvest a good portion of the profits into R&D to make more insanely great products.

Sir_Giggles
Feb 18, 2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Ravenflight
Personally I hope Apple sells a mountain of these things and then hopefully they'll reinvest a good portion of the profits into R&D to make more insanely great products.

I hope Apple comes out with an iPod Nano, that I can fit into my ear canal. I control it by tapping my earlobes. I transfer songs into it by putting my ear up against my iSync terminal.

clr900
Feb 18, 2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Skiniftz
The countdown is based on the clock in YOUR computer, therefore your computer clock is wrong.

You can have some fun if you alter the system clock time and watch the timer alter in real time from apple.com.

Once it reaches 0:00 then it just says "....

You want me to spoil the surprise? ;)
Actually my computer clock is not wrong as today Apples website is fixed and now says 2 days and 2 hours to go. (I actually used my computers clock to determine how far away 6 o'clock on Friday actually was, as opposed to the wrong clock on Apple's site.)

anthonymoody
Feb 18, 2004, 03:25 PM
WOW. I got my silver mini this morning at 8:30am...2 days earlier than expected (according to Fedex...) and I freakin LOVE it. At the gym today 3 people commented on it...2 w/ipods, 1 without.

I'm NEVER going back :D

TM

Nicky G
Feb 18, 2004, 03:42 PM
And then all the evil trollish naysayers shriveled up into burnt crisps, and blew away, scattered into the wind.

The End

Messiatosh
Feb 18, 2004, 03:43 PM
LOL

GrannySmith_G5
Feb 18, 2004, 07:39 PM
I wonder which colors will sell well and which won't. I can picture BestBuy stuck with a shelf of gold ones that nobody wants.

Nicky G
Feb 18, 2004, 07:47 PM
Get real, gold is pimpin' and timeless. Like the mini itself, it will have to be seen to be truly appreciated.

jimsowden
Feb 18, 2004, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Captnroger
Are any other national retailers (ie, CompUSA) going to have them at 6pm on Friday?
Apple made sure their stores would have a supply of minis and from what I hear the only ones that will, if lucky, reach the resellers by Friday at 6 are going to be the silver and blue. This is all speculation, and they could very well have none, or they could have a huge stock. Thats just what I've heard. I do know that apple is trying to get supplies to everyone by their self-inflicted release date, and it looks they are antisipating a rush on silver and blue over the others. I got mine last week and its pretty cool.

Messiatosh
Feb 18, 2004, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by jimsowden
I got mine last week and its pretty cool.

Last week, really?! That is insanely great (hehe) and probably one of the first deliveries? BTW, what color did you get? My blue, engraved one should be here tomorrow.

CANT WAIT. You are one lucky SOB.
;)

Sir_Giggles
Feb 18, 2004, 08:20 PM
Look on the back of the mini and it will say iPod. It doesn't say "iPod mini".

Why? Because Apple will soon phase out the original iPod once 1" HD capacities exceed 20GBs. This is the beginning of the end for the regular sized iPods. HAHA. How perceptive of me. :D

GrannySmith_G5
Feb 18, 2004, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by Nicky G
Get real, gold is pimpin' and timeless. Like the mini itself, it will have to be seen to be truly appreciated.
Maybe you're right. Regardless, I would actually probably buy it if it was completely hideously ugly. I like that sort of thing..... I was just wondering, because I assumed most people would go with the silver.

Messiatosh
Feb 18, 2004, 08:52 PM
I engraved the mini as follows (with my nickname)

Dhuge's Apple iPod Mini
(my phone number digits)

I think I should have done something more clever! I also ordered blue, but the more and more I see green, the more I want it! Damn, blue is fine though. Go Penn State!;)

Nicky G
Feb 18, 2004, 09:10 PM
Hey, I put almost the EXACT same thing -- great minds think alike! [my name]'s iPod, then my phone number on the 2nd line. I didn't say iPod mini -- I guess the "mini" speaks for itself. ;-)

I figure I could put nothing, or something lame, or something functional that MIGHT get my iPod back to me if it ever gets snatched or lost. No shame in that!

demoptera
Feb 19, 2004, 12:47 AM
My local CompUSA got 12 pinks ones in today, but of course isn't going to sell them till Friday. They were expecting them to arrive last week, and expect more colors to be in stock before Friday.

Does anyone know if they will be giving away any promo stuff at Apple Stores on Friday?

Skiniftz
Feb 19, 2004, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Sir_Giggles
Look on the back of the mini and it will say iPod. It doesn't say "iPod mini".

Why? Because Apple will soon phase out the original iPod once 1" HD capacities exceed 20GBs. This is the beginning of the end for the regular sized iPods. HAHA. How perceptive of me. :D
...or perhaps the thing is just so small there wasn't enough room for the word "mini"... :D

Ravenflight
Feb 19, 2004, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Skiniftz
The countdown is based on the clock in YOUR computer, therefore your computer clock is wrong.

You can have some fun if you alter the system clock time and watch the timer alter in real time from apple.com.

Once it reaches 0:00 then it just says "....

You want me to spoil the surprise? ;)
Well I am running Mac OS X version 10.3.2. Since my system clock is set BY Apple everytime I connect to the internet (which is to say every time I turn it on) over a DSL connection running at 1.5 Mbps I fail to see how my systems clock could be off by 24 hours. My system clock right now says it is Wed 11:07 PM. The countdown clock on Apples website right now says 2 days 18:53 to go. Which would mean it will reach zero on Saturday at 6pm- not Friday.

I am quite certain that my macs clock is not off by 24 hours- but obviously someones addition is. Or are you implying that everyones clock is off by one whole day and only the countdown clock at Apple is correct? But then how do you explain Apple setting everyones clock to the wrong day? Should I go into work Saturday on my day off and insist it is Friday because Apple's countdown clock told me so? I'm sure managers everywhere will appreciate all the extra productivity Apple is generating by adding an extra workday to the year. :D :D :D

rogo
Feb 19, 2004, 02:16 AM
The Muvo2 4GB is $199. It is already cheaper than the Mini.

I think it is easy to confuse the short-term success of the Mini with a strategy.

Those who believe Apple should be dropping the hammer >>now<< to take its early market dominance and convert it to something more lasting are right.

And the Mini needs to move to $199 to show that commitment.

I'd expect that to happen by summer, but really now would've been a better time.

I hope Apple understands -- this time -- how to press its advantage rather than squandering it. The HP deal suggests they do; the $249 price suggests they don't.

And being proud of how many were sold while nice, is not exactly thrilling. $25 million in revenues and $500,000 in earnings are not going to change Apple's future.

Owning 40% of the music distribution business for the next 25 years would.

jameskk
Feb 19, 2004, 09:46 AM
MY 2 Minis are HERE!!!!! I just tracked them and they showed out for delivery TODAY and my office called and said that I had 2 FedEx boxes on my desk!!!!! Now I am racing to get to my office to see them!!! Now work getting done today!!

Ravenflight
Feb 19, 2004, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by rogo
The Muvo2 4GB is $199. It is already cheaper than the Mini.

I think it is easy to confuse the short-term success of the Mini with a strategy.

Those who believe Apple should be dropping the hammer >>now<< to take its early market dominance and convert it to something more lasting are right.

And the Mini needs to move to $199 to show that commitment.

I'd expect that to happen by summer, but really now would've been a better time.

I hope Apple understands -- this time -- how to press its advantage rather than squandering it. The HP deal suggests they do; the $249 price suggests they don't.

And being proud of how many were sold while nice, is not exactly thrilling. $25 million in revenues and $500,000 in earnings are not going to change Apple's future.

Owning 40% of the music distribution business for the next 25 years would.
Hmmm. Let me get this straight. So you are suggesting that Apple should now not only lose money on every song sold, but that now they should lose money on every iPod sold as well?? Lets look at this for a moment. Apple makes 20% margin on every iPod sold. They've already admitted to making less than that on the mini. But even if they were making 20% on the mini (which they are not yet) that means at 249.00 they are making a whole -drum roll please- 49.80.
Now if we drop the price to 199.00 you can see that they will essentially be losing money for every mini sold- Now how do they turn a profit? Off the iPod Music store? ;) Apple has already stated they don't make money off iTunes http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5092559.html?tag=mac.nn And it appears that the only reason they even keep investing in iTunes is to sell more iPods.

Now I can see everyone saying 'well lets make it up in volume and eventually we'll make a profit'- Sorry to burst your dot-com bubble but that business model has already been proven not to work. And why would Apple want to pursue such a losing business model anyway? Consumers are already lined up out the door and down the block to buy iPods and mini's at realistic prices that DO help Apples bottom line. And seriously, is the competition really undercutting the mini by that much if at all? The 4GB Rio is 249.00, 4GB Creative Muvo2 is 299.00, Sony's (UGLY!) 256MB Network Walkman is 265.00 (Yikes!) This list goes on but you can see it here http://www.arstechnica.com/etc/mac/2004/mac.ars-01262004.html

I am positive that at this time 249.00 is a very good price point. And once the price on these new drives comes down Apple will lower their price accordingly. But there really is no need for them to follow other companies before them into a disastrous failure by selling millions of units at less than the price to produce them.

Sir_Giggles
Feb 19, 2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by jameskk
MY 2 Minis are HERE!!!!! I just tracked them and they showed out for delivery TODAY and my office called and said that I had 2 FedEx boxes on my desk!!!!! Now I am racing to get to my office to see them!!! Now work getting done today!!

I really hate you right about now. I gotta wait until April before I can even see one in person. Bah. :mad:

Gravity
Feb 19, 2004, 12:18 PM
I'm pissed. I will never again order a new apple product from a reseller, such as CDW.

My iPod mini was ordered January 17th. It's considered "backordered." They won't be shipping mine until sometime later next week.

I'm buying directly from apple next time.

rogo
Feb 19, 2004, 01:52 PM
Um, Raven, you are, well, just plain wrong.

Creative is selling an almost identical product (minus the Apple niceness) for $199. Creative makes no money from add-ons like remotes and docks (compared to Apple) and Creative makes no money from music sales.

So if Creative can sell the Muvo for $199 and make a profit, Apple can too. In fact, Apple would make more money even though I suspect the Mini has a BOM that is slightly higher than that for the Muvo2.

And you entirely miss the bigger issue:

Win the customer now, or lose him for years.

Only one player supports iTunes and iTunes only supports one player --> iPod. Buy something else today, never shop at iTunes. In fact, you will probably never convert later because anything you buy at another digital music shop will be WMA, which doesn't play on iPods.

This is a battle of epic proportions and Apple is playing it like a tennis game against a friend they like to compete with. It's hardly enough.

Try to grasp this --> With Apple's lead, they could actually defeat the competition despite the competition having scores of players vs. Apple's 4; despite the competition having many stores vs. Apple's few (their own, AOL -- IIRC, HP to come).

They could win, but they will lose unless customers are locked in now.

It is comical to believe the bigger prize is, say, 400,000 x $50 extra margin dollars from Mini sales right now ($20 million) when downloadable music is going to be a $20 billion industry by decade's end... And the store is going to make 10-15 cents per track sold....

Mark

Sir_Giggles
Feb 19, 2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by rogo

Win the customer now, or lose him for years.

Only one player supports iTunes and iTunes only supports one player --> iPod. Buy something else today, never shop at iTunes. In fact, you will probably never convert later because anything you buy at another digital music shop will be WMA, which doesn't play on iPods.

This is a battle of epic proportions and Apple is playing it like a tennis game against a friend they like to compete with. It's hardly enough.



Nah. The majority of songs that go on iPods now are from MP3s downloaded off the net, and from CD-rips. You're saying Apple should forego all profits on the iPods in some pipe dream that they will rule the downloads market?

One thing, we don't know what the future has in store. Second, the iPod is competitively priced. Third, Apple is going after a segment of the market that has money, and those are the same people who are more willing to buy their music, rather than pirating it off the net.

Can you explain how you lock in customers? Apple already has tremendous brand loyalty, so it's a matter of what percentage of the market actually downloads music rather than buying the CD. At last figure, the total market for music downloads is less than 1% of the total music market. So that means 99% of music on your iPod likely came off a CD.

humara
Feb 19, 2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by rogo

Win the customer now, or lose him for years.

Only one player supports iTunes and iTunes only supports one player --> iPod. Buy something else today, never shop at iTunes.

Itunes supports many players.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93548&sessionID=anonymous|34246826&kbhost=kbase.info.apple.com%3a80%2f

As you can see from the list, iTunes has pretty decent support for other players. Now, whether or not those players can play protected aac or even aac files is another story and not really apple's issue. Although i think it would be good if apple could convince one other manufacturer to jump on the aac bandwagon.

But anyway, Apple proved the naysayers wrong with the ipod and I think they'll prove rogo and the new naysayers wrong with the mini.

Messiatosh
Feb 19, 2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by rogo
And you entirely miss the bigger issue:

Win the customer now, or lose him for years.

While I see your point, it isnt really true. Apple came along out of nowhere with the iPod. It is about what is current and the best. If someone came along tomorrow and had a better player than the iPod in all facets, then it would start to take away from the iPod's potential sales.

rogo
Feb 19, 2004, 04:38 PM
And again, the Reality Distortion Field of Steve Jobs has many brainwashed:

"You're saying Apple should forego all profits on the iPods in some pipe dream that they will rule the downloads market?"

No, in fact I never said that at all. You need to actually read the posts. Creative can make money at $199 without any hope at all of getting more money. Therefore, Apple can make money at $199 -- and it will get more money later from other sales.

And, no, it isn't a pipedream to rule downloads. It is there for the taking. I'm quite sure Apple will blow it; but people in the music industry don't understand why they are so insistent on doing so. I've spoken to more than a few...

"Can you explain how you lock in customers? "

With a proprietary DRM and a rare file format. Today, your iTunes downloads play only on your iPod. You buy the iPod and start buying music, you are locked in to the iPod indefinitely as you can't take your music to another player (well, you can, through two conversions that destroy its quality; I've heard the results of AAC --> CD Audio --> MP3 and they ain't at all pretty.)

"Itunes supports many players."

No it doesn't. Downloads play on iPods -- only. Period.

"But anyway, Apple proved the naysayers wrong with the ipod and I think they'll prove rogo and the new naysayers wrong with the mini."

I'm not a Mini naysayer. I think the Mini is an outstanding product. I think Apple Product Marketing needs to price the whole line far more rationally, however, as it makes no sense. And I also think that Mini at $199 is a Grand Slam; Mini at $249 is a solo homer.

My point -- which I'll reiterate one more time -- is that Mini is a chance to take over the world. And at $249 that chance is squandered. Oh, and when they do reduce the price to $199 this summer or fall, what will you all say then? If they can do it then, they can do it now. Yes, they'd forgo a few million in gross margin, but they'd also sell a lot more Minis. Not only is demand for this thing highly elastic, but $199 is a magic price point for electronics, $249 isn't.

"If someone came along tomorrow and had a better player than the iPod in all facets, then it would start to take away from the iPod's potential sales."

I don't know about that. Apple has the zeitgeist right now. And Apple is controlling 70% of the downloads market right now. And iPod is selling a ridiculous amount, even while being expensive.

There is something called the "tipping point" and while I openly question Apple's decision not to license the iPod DRM et al. much more liberally, they could actually rule the world with their closed universe, so long as they offer a multiplicity of players at multiple price points.

This battle to control music distribution is going to last 5 years or so and then end. The winners will be the "record labels" of the future. They won't sign Britney or Beyonce, necessarily, but they will be the distributors. That is a huge, huge prize.

Apple's current strategy is to get the most margin $$$ today that are possible and to charge more than the competition for the same features. This kind of strategy -- call it the Sony Way -- can work, but ultimately usually fails. The hardware becomes a commodity and the number of people who will pay a premium for the same features is small. This is actually clear when you look at Apple's computers -- also proprietary and relegated to a miniscule niche of the market.

But there is no reason Apple has to be the same way in music. Already, it has shown a surprising willingness to "open up." The HP deal was an absolute masterstroke. The Mini is a winningg product that translates the iPod experience to something much much more portable.

There should also be a flash iPod at $149 for 256MB to fill out the line. But in the meantime, the road to dominance is paved by getting people hooked on iPod/iTunes. Mini at $199 would lay a lot more asphalt than Mini at $249. And it's a mistake to view the superb pre-sales as validation of the higher price.

Gravity
Feb 19, 2004, 05:44 PM
I know it's a pain in the patootie...but downloaded songs (in the AAC format) could be burned to CD, reimported, then converted to mp3...which could then be used on other players.

vrapan
Feb 19, 2004, 06:12 PM
Are you sure that muvo 2 sells for 199$ I heard somewhere that is sells for 299$. Anyway I will say that the price is right for the mini for right now. There is no product competing in coolness and hip factor not even close and also not in functionality and also being the only player that supports the iTunes store is a big boost. I believe that a company should price a product to make as much money as possible. And in any case seeing the situation of the normal iPod where in UK you can are considered lucky if you can find any 15 or 20GB ones it seems like that they cannot make them quickly enough so no reason to sell them cheaper. the product sells and as long as capacity does not exceed demand then the price is fine.

Having said that it is only a matter of time until someone manufactures a comparable product. maybe not as cool or functional but good enough for most and a lot cheaper (see mac-windows). At which point Apple should try and do something to compete with that sort of product. They did not do something when win machines came around and i guess now they regret every second of it. So the iPods will have to go down in price only when a threatening offer appears. So far nothing comes close so iPod prices capitalise on their advantages and that is great.

Messiatosh
Feb 19, 2004, 07:13 PM
The mini is ****ing amazing, I just got mine today. In one word: unbelievable. But one word doesnt do it justice, nor do the pictures of it. It is so freaking small and light. The finish is gorgeous and the price is not even a factor in my mind, it is so worth the price. Everything about it is perfect, just picture that Business Week with S.J. on the cover...it's smaller than that!

oh man, I already filled it with music, but I'm a runner and since when is 4 days of music too little to have with you in your pocket?....somewhere in your pocket...if you can find it.:D

humara
Feb 19, 2004, 07:21 PM
"Itunes supports many players."

No it doesn't. Downloads play on iPods -- only. Period.

"But anyway, Apple proved the naysayers wrong with the ipod and I think they'll prove rogo and the new naysayers wrong with the mini."

I'm not a Mini naysayer. I think the Mini is an outstanding product. I think Apple Product Marketing needs to price the whole line far more rationally, however, as it makes no sense. And I also think that Mini at $199 is a Grand Slam; Mini at $249 is a solo homer.

Rogo, maybe people are having a hard time understanding your rants becuase they are not accurate. As I said before, iTunes supports many players. You are possibly confusing iTunes Music store downloads with the term "iTunes". My post was pretty straight forward. So is this one. And as for you being a naysayer, I heard the same arguement from people such as yourself when the 1st ipod came out. "$399, nobody will buy that." or "$399. that's just a base hit, not a home run"
Please get over yourself and go buy a muvo for $199 while it's still on sale. Creative dropped the price from $299 becuase of apple's aggressive $249 price. Check out the creative site and see how its on sale for 40% off. I guess they had to put it on sale because they weren't selling very well. As opposed to apple, who isn't putting their product on sale because it is selling well.

rogo
Feb 19, 2004, 11:13 PM
"I know it's a pain in the patootie...but downloaded songs (in the AAC format) could be burned to CD, reimported, then converted to mp3...which could then be used on other players."

I already addressed this. But in case you didn't read the post: It sounds like crap when you do this. Believe me.

"Are you sure that muvo 2 sells for 199$ I heard somewhere that is sells for 299$. "

Yes, I am sure.

"I believe that a company should price a product to make as much money as possible. "

Yes, you do believe that. And, actually so do I. But we have very different views on how to make as much money as possible. Your logic would currently justify a $299 price because very new of the pre-orders would've been canceled at that price.

"Rogo, maybe people are having a hard time understanding your rants becuase they are not accurate. As I said before, iTunes supports many players. You are possibly confusing iTunes Music store downloads with the term "iTunes""

And you are confusing semantics with relevance. Yes, I mean the iTunes Music Store, which is totally obvious from everything I've written. And that supports iPod only. Period.

"Please get over yourself and go buy a muvo for $199 while it's still on sale. Creative dropped the price from $299 becuase of apple's aggressive $249 price. Check out the creative site and see how its on sale for 40% off. I guess they had to put it on sale because they weren't selling very well. "

Yeah, get over yourself. The Muvo was out for about a week before the price was cut to $199. Creative realized their mistake; Apple hasn't.

I love how AppleHeads can't see the forest for the trees. I make totally valid points worthy of discussion and AppleHeads say, "Go buy the Muvo." It is the utter detachment from reality that is the hallmark of Apple's low single-digit market share.

I'm quite sure the iTunes Music Store will see its market share drop over and over and over thanks to brilliant decisions like short term maximization of iPod margins. The prize is selling music; not selling overpriced hardware -- no matter how good that hardware is.

As usual, the AppleHeads are under the RDF.

Enjoy and goodbye.

humara
Feb 20, 2004, 12:49 AM
I'm sorry. What was your valid point again?
I must have forgotten it after reading that crap. Something about the mini being too expensive? Or something about how you're right about everything?

Ravenflight
Feb 20, 2004, 01:48 AM
Ummm does anyone have a couple of Prozacs they could give to my friend Rogo here- I think he just had a seizure.

Ok, well I hate to compare Apples to Oranges but since we've got certained individuals ranting about the Muvo2 lets just compare the two.
Mini: Annodized aluminum Muvo: Cheap grey&black plastic
Mini: 5 gorgeous colors Muvo: Cheap grey & black plastic
Mini: Firewire 400 & USB 2.0 Muvo: USB 2.0 only
Mini:AAC (16-320 Kbps), MP3 (32-320 Kbps), MP3, VBR, Audible, AIFF, and WAV Muvo: Mp3, WMA, & WAV
Mini: 5 line display Muvo: 2 line display
Mini: works with Mac or Windows Muvo: Windows only
Mini: size of a credit card Muvo: size of a, mmm, toy wooden block?
Mini: 0.5" thin Muvo over 3/4" thick
Mini: Easy to use elegant scroll wheel Muvo: Well let me just quote a Cnet review:
"The MuVo▓'s four-directional toggle switch is the size of a shirt button, and its play/pause control is as big as a collar button. The cramped ergonomics take some getting used to, and we often found ourselves adjusting volume (by pushing up or down) when we meant to fast-forward or rewind (pressing left or right)."

Obviously nobody in their right mind is going to buy this piece of crap if they can get a mini for just 49.00 more. And why is it that Creative can make a profit (we're making a large assumption there) at 199.00 while Apple cannot do the same with the Mini? Well maybe it has something to do with the obviously higher quality of the Mini. Maybe it's because of the better case. Maybe it's the better software that powers it. Maybe it's the better scrollwheel. Maybe it has to do with the better ergonomics. Maybe it has to do with the much larger Research and Development costs that went into creating it. Or maybe Creative is just having a fire sale and dumping their remaining stock before everyone wakes up and realizes they could have gotten something so far superior in every respect instead.

Gravity
Feb 20, 2004, 06:56 AM
Very well said, Raven.

I still think they should endeavor to reduce the mini to $199. But it's understandable that during its introduction it is going to cost more. There's simply nothing else like it.

And on monday...I'm going to experience it for myself. CDW is shipping mine out tonight.

mpopkin
Feb 20, 2004, 09:54 AM
Yeah!, i have an ipod mini on hold at my local apple store, i am so excited i will be there six on the dot to pick up my player, i am so excited
Matt

grouse
Feb 20, 2004, 10:17 AM
Does anyone know what's happened to our friends at as the Apple Turns?

here (http://www.appleturns.com)

Seem to be offline.

And my favourite is defo Gold

UofI MacConvert
Feb 20, 2004, 02:43 PM
Just wondering what kinda things people were getting for engraving on their iPods. I can't decide what I want on mine.

Messiatosh
Feb 20, 2004, 02:51 PM
"I need more cowbell, baby!"

Lancetx
Feb 20, 2004, 02:56 PM
I picked up a silver one at Fry's on my lunch hour. Haven't had the chance to play with it yet though since I'm at work. Strangely, they had more silver ones available than any other color. A quick glance estimation was that they had about 10 silver, 5 each of the gold, green and blue, and only one pink. I'm sure they'll all be gone by this evening, so I went on ahead and picked one up.

P.S.: I forgot to mention that they also had a few of the mini docks and armbands already out for sale as well.

clr900
Feb 20, 2004, 03:22 PM
I completely agree with you raven, the iPod mini is so obviously superior in every aspect except price. While I do think that the price should be lowered to 200, lets keep in mind that the iPod has not even been released yet, Apple hasn't had a chance to reduce the price. Maybe a week from now the price will be dropped to 200, apparently thats how long it took the muvo according to rogo but who knows if thats even accurate. I did a search for muvo on epinions and I did see the 4GB muvo for 205 but then again I saw their 512MB model for 240...wow muvo thats some great marketing. Way to move the products.

Sir_Giggles
Feb 20, 2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by clr900
the iPod mini is so obviously superior in every aspect except price.

I absolutely agree with you. I think Apple needs to sell the iPod mini for $49, lest they wish to dominate this market. If they can get it down to $29, Apple would just sell them like hotcakes.

<EoS>

neon
Feb 20, 2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by UofI MacConvert
Just wondering what kinda things people were getting for engraving on their iPods. I can't decide what I want on mine.
not the mini, nor my ipod, nor sensible

Sir_Giggles
Feb 20, 2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by UofI MacConvert
Just wondering what kinda things people were getting for engraving on their iPods. I can't decide what I want on mine.

I gave my valentine an iPod engraved "Be my bitch". Suffice to say, he wasn't too amused.

rogo
Feb 20, 2004, 04:58 PM
"And why is it that Creative can make a profit (we're making a large assumption there)...."

Only in Apple RDF land could this statement even be made. They have no attach rate of songs and minimal (if any?) accessory sales on Muvo. And yet they choose to sell it at $199.

http://www.buy.com/retail/product_jump.asp?sku=90130892

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001BXCFS/jewishbookmal0a-20/103-0557272-9720617

It appears to be selling out everywhere.

What a dumb plan by Creative! Sell a ton of players!

Sure, the Mini is "superior" and I actually agree it has better parts.

The fact that all of you are such AppleHeads you can't see my point says just about everything there is to say. There is a forest out there, and all you see is trees... Alas.

I hope Apple mgt. is more "in tune' than they seem to be and this initial price is merely the typical early-adopter tax.

If not, well, history will repeat...

Messiatosh
Feb 20, 2004, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by rogo
Sure, the Mini is "superior" and I actually agree it has better parts.

The fact that all of you are such AppleHeads you can't see my point says just about everything there is to say. There is a forest out there, and all you see is trees... Alas.

I hope Apple mgt. is more "in tune' than they seem to be and this initial price is merely the typical early-adopter tax.

If not, well, history will repeat...

You have to be joking. The mini is far superior to anything available from any company right now. Nobody touches the interface, nobody touches the design, nobody touches its integration with the iTunes and the iTMS. Get off me, bitch.

ALoLA
Feb 20, 2004, 09:46 PM
iPod envy :D

Messiatosh
Feb 20, 2004, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by ALoLA
iPod envy :D

Obviously, it must be. Haha, my blue is for me, not for you!:D

neutrino23
Feb 20, 2004, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by ccuilla
I have to agree. Calling someone cheap or dumb over such a decision is a bit harsh. It is a value decision. For SOME people $499 for a digital music player is cheap and well worth the value. For SOME people $99 to TOO much and not worth the value at all. There are many factors involved including disposable income (a bit more scarce these days).

The point here is that Apple is very wisely selling the iPod Mini at $249 to the set of people for which $249 is a fair and reasonable value proposition. That may be 100,000, it may be 500,000. Next they'll work there way to the people that thing $199 is a fair and reasonable value proposition. That might be many more people. But in the mean time, they will have made another (assume 500,000 sold at $249) $25M is revenue (probably a large amount of profit). This is smart business. We should applaud them for this, since smart business people tend to STAY in business...and I want Apple to STAY in business.

(BTW...this last comment is a shot at anyone who says "I don't care about what Apple's making, profit-wise.")

I think that Apple is usually very good at picking a price. When the iPod mini first came out the arguments for a $200 price seemed very persuasive yet look at the strength of the sales. If they had come out at $200 they might not have been able to meet demand and they might have left money on the table.

I used to work with a guy in marketing with that talent. He would price something at a level that would cause our stomachs to churn, yet the customers would pay it. My hats off to people with that skill.

Ravenflight
Feb 21, 2004, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by rogo
Sure, the Mini is "superior" and I actually agree it has better parts.
What a dumb plan by Creative! Sell a ton of players!
The fact that all of you are such AppleHeads you can't see my point says just about everything there is to say. There is a forest out there, and all you see is trees... Alas.
I hope Apple mgt. is more "in tune' than they seem to be and this initial price is merely the typical early-adopter tax.
If not, well, history will repeat...
I'm sorry Rogo, did you just finally admit that the mini is superior??? And yet you still want them to price it at the same price as something that is inferior in every respect??? Well, when you get them to do that could you also get BMW to price the Mini Cooper the same as the Ford Escort? I'm sure if BMW could just get the Mini Cooper down to under 10,000.00 they would sell like hotcakes. Wait a sec- they're already selling like hotcakes and they cost double their competition! What gives?

You know when I got to my local Apple store just 20 minutes after they started selling the mini they were already sold out of 3 colors and there was at least 50 people in line to get one of the 2 remaining colors (Blue & Silver). However when I was at Fry's the other day I didn't see anyone in line to get Creative mp3 players. I haven't seen any press releases from Creative stating that they sold over 100,000 of them even before it was in stores. I haven't seen any glowing reviews from Cnet or ZDNet over the Muvo2- I'd call their reviews of the Muvo2 less than glowing- ie ZDNet's "However, navigating lists is a pain, as you can see only one song title at a time on the one-line display. If you're the type who often wants to hear a specific song, this is not the player for you"
Or:
"But on each machine we connected to, the MuVo▓ froze unless we used the AC adapter/charger. Also, files developed skips when we dragged a bunch of individual folders onto the player simultaneously."

Say what??? The Muvo skips, freezes, and you can't find your music???? My iPod doesn't develop skips when I download files. It doesn't freeze either. And I have no problem listening to a specific song. Perhaps that is why I don't mind paying a miniscule 20% more for a mp3 player that actually does what I expect it to- Be able to find and play the specific music I want to listen to- right now, with no pain, no skips, and no problems.

clr900
Feb 21, 2004, 12:45 AM
Of course it would be great if the iPod mini were 50 dollars cheaper but like I already said it was JUST RELEASED TODAY. Muvo has an inferior product and therefore it costs an inferior price. Imagine when Apple does reduce the price, who in their right mind would choose the Muvo, or maybe they will choose the 512 MB Muvo that costs 240 dollars. Apple hasn't realized their mistake?....I don't know, pricing an mp3 player that has 8x less space for 40 dollars more than their other 4GB player sounds pretty stupid to me. That would be like if the Apple made the mini cost 350 dollars. Better products costs more money. Period.

m4rc
Feb 21, 2004, 02:07 AM
I couldn't be bothered to read every post in this thread - life's too short - so my apologies if this has been said before.

Value is different to everybody. A child who gets $5 a week and a $20 birthday gift may think the iPod mini is very expensive. The exec earning $250,000 dollars may not think the same. It is also how you value the item. If music is important and you are looking for a product like this, and can afford it, it's great value. Even better if you were considerin g buying something from the competition because you needed something lighter and smaller than the iPod, now you can pay a little more and get the mini. Maybe the iPod was just too big - in HD size as well as well as physical size.

Personally, for me, I can afford either, would like an iPod, but don't need it. I have 9Gig of music in iTunes, but I bet I havent listened to 6+ of those Gigs in the past few months. If I am going anywhere for more than a few hours, I always have my PB with me, so I would be able to swap my tunes.

The mini looks a little more solid and practical, I may be wrong, and haven't actaully held one to test this. For me, it wouldn't be the case that I am torn between the iPod and mini iPod because of a few $ more. I think it is the better product, for what I need, which is a small light solid mp3 player that can slip in my pocket, or go to the gym with me. I want it to be connectable to my PB, and just work.

For me, the mini is good value, and it;s not about price.

This won't be the case for everyone, but you have to remeber that value is relative. If you are the type of person who wont buy the mini because the iPod is not much more money, then the mini was never made and priced for you, it the iPod was, and it makes the iPod a much better value product. Stop moaning, and go and buy one! If you already have an iPod, of course the mini seems like bad value, but again, it isnt for you, you already have a great value iPod!

And we mustn't forget, whatever any of us think about the price or the product, it is selling very well.

Marc

clr900
Feb 21, 2004, 10:26 AM
I think the new iPod mini is amazing, the resistant aluminum case, the neat colors, and its great size make it a winning product. I already have a 15 Gig iPod and I am seriously considering getting a mini. Like people have already said, the mini is aimed at the market that wants a small mp3 player that they can carry around with them without worrying about it getting damaged or becoming uncomfortable in a pocket. The 15Gig I have right now is great for going on trips where I want my entire music collection and using as a portable hard drive in case I want to transfer some files to somebody elses computer. But on a purely music level, the mini would be perfect for me. I don't necessarily want to listen to or for that matter even like all of the music that I have on my ipod right now and there is no need for me to be carrying around files with me all day when I could compromise these for a smaller form factor. I know right now that I don't really like to carry around my iPod in my pocket as it can get uncomfortable, however my cell phone is fine in my pocket which is what the mini would be like. I think I gotta get one now....silvers nice.

Messiatosh
Feb 21, 2004, 11:19 AM
From my experience, the mini is almost unnoticeable in my pocket. Apple should adopt that bra companies slogan, "Barely there."

It honestly feels like that, you sense some weight but there is no hinderance or bulge that forms. It is really one of the most marvelously small, yet sickly functional pieces of technology I have ever seen or owned. Go get one, you wont be dissapointed.:)

Messiatosh
Feb 21, 2004, 12:04 PM
Size: Although at first glance and from what pictures you may have seen online, the iPod mini seems "not that much smaller" than the current iPod. In reality, it is not really that much smaller! But, the 3G iPod is small as it is, that the iPod mini being even smaller, makes it unreasonably small, yet still insanely functional. Stand an iPod mini up to a mini DV tape, and you'll be impressed.

Actual Feel: The difference between the original iPod and the mini in terms of weight alone is reason enough for runners to buy it. I used to run with the original iPod and if I would try to put it in my pocket, it would either pull my pants down or swing dangerously. The ladies would like me to keep on using the original iPod, but he mini is better for those of us who are self conscious about our manhood, among other things. By placing the iPod mini on your arm for running with the optional armband, you wont know its there. It is an incredible feeling to be running and hearing music, but not even have a constant reminder from the source itself, that the music is being played from it. It is like weightless music. I took the mini to school with me, with no case. I just dropped it into my jean's pocket and off I went. Hardly any noticeable weight, and nearly zero bulk.

Construction/Design: The mini is really well protected in its aluminum shell, it has picked up no scratches or blemishes of any kind to its body. The only concern I have, is that the scroll whell is prone to getting dirty, because I must have had pencil lead on my finger, which rubbed onto the scroll wheel. I rubbed off the mark in time, so it didnt stain, but it is something to be careful about. Wash your hands before using the mini! I havent dropped it yet, thank god. I hope I never do, but I feel confident that if I did accidentally happen to fumble the mini, it is made out of a resilient grade aluminum and it wouldnt break.

Price/Value: Obviously, this is the most touchy of all of the subjects surrounding the iPod mini. For me, there is no question that the price was well worth it for the product. I am able to go running with the iPod mini now, and not have to worry about dropping it or switching the hands that hold it as I run. It can slip into my pocket and it wont pick up scratches or blemishes. Maybe the only thing I miss is being able to covertly check out my hair in the reflective mirror of the old iPod. As many people may say, the difference of 11 GB's just wont allow them to spend $50 less. For those people it is understandable that they would feel like that. If I were not as active and on-the-go as I am, I would not buy an iPod mini.

Conclusion: So far the experience I have had with the mini really outdoes my original iPod experience. I am not able to carry as many songs, but I also only listen to so many. Portability may come at a slight premium but as far as Apple's players go, the most portable one is the least expensive option. I would encourage anyone to go see it for themselves to get an idea of the fit and finish, that Apple is famous for, and the mini is no exception to Ive's wonderous design skills. I truely believe this iPod mini is going to be the reason why Apple retains its lead in digital music, now and into the foreseeable future.

Beck446
Feb 21, 2004, 02:33 PM
It's disappointing to order a mini on Apple's website yesterday, hear you all rave about it, know that you have already gotten it, and then find out that expected delivery is March 15th or earlier.

vrapan
Feb 21, 2004, 04:27 PM
it beats having to wait till april till you see one though.....

Beck446
Feb 21, 2004, 09:39 PM
Good point...

With Apple, either make up your mind early and get in the queue or just use eBay!

Beck446
Feb 21, 2004, 09:40 PM
By the way,

Mini's are going at over cost on eBay right now. Just FYI.

Ravenflight
Feb 21, 2004, 10:14 PM
I love my Mini! My only complaint is I wish they would have put a tag on the front of it that says DO NOT LET SOFTWARE UPDATE UPGRADE YOUR MINI TO IPOD VERSION 2.1. - Instead of burying that little tidbit of info in the online documentation. Ah well, water under the bridge. At least they included documentation on how to restore it if you didn't read the owners manual first.... DOH!!!

rogo
Feb 23, 2004, 12:32 AM
All of you have to be joking because I've never argued the point about whether or not the Mini is superior. It is superior to the Muvo2. In fact, it is superior to the iPod in just about every measure of functionality (save for capacity).

I, incidentally, have a 3G 20GB unit. I was >>this close<< to swapping to the Mini this weekend. I would've if iTunes had been upgraded to do intelligent, incremental music swapping....

Back to the topic --
If you take two products, call them Good and Better, and price them such that Good costs 1x and Better costs 1.2x, well, you'll certainly sell your share of Better... It's Better, after all.

But if you sell Better for 1x alongside Good at 1x, you'll pretty much obliterate Good from the marketplace.

And what is obviously not clear here, despite my trying to write it several times is this:

The prize is not extracting a few million more dollars in margin on initial player shipments. In fact, it is not at all obvious that the higher price even will achieve that. [Why? Well, the higher price will dampen accessory sales; and the margins on those are off the charts.] The prize is the domination of digital-music distribution.

Apple is poised to win. To be the #1 seller of digital music for the next two decades. It's a long race, sure. But the head start is profound and rare in business. Kind of like the Macintosh's lead in GUI-based computing an eon ago.

Pressing the advantage is not about the standard Silicon Valley "early adopter" tax. It's about pressing the advantage. The sooner the Mini is $199 the better to press that advantage. Friday would've been a fine start date.

[Parting thoughts: I saw the Mini in all five colors. I held and used it. It is that rare, extraordinary digital device that simply transcends. It is the brilliant ergonomics of the original iPod -- minus the obnoxious sharp edge of that device -- without all the bulk of the original. It is what the 3G should've been -- the line of four buttons is a major backwards step vs. the around-the-ring buttons -- only shrunken. I quibble with the color choices and believe they were chosen on purpose to allow for better colors later on. I quibble with the price as you all know, because it is short sighted. I quibble with the continued insistence on a non-replaceable battery, when there was a way to offer one in the Mini. But, wow, what an elegant device.]

GroundLoop
Feb 23, 2004, 07:21 AM
I got my iPod Mini on Friday from the local Apple Store. No line. Just walked in and picked up my silver beauty. I thought that they were going to be difficult to get the first couple of days/weeks. But it seems that Apple has done pretty well in meeting the demand in my area.

I absolutely love my Mini though. I wonder if it will get any looks at the gym today. :)

Hickman