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arn
Jun 6, 2002, 10:31 PM
Newsfactor reports (http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/18114.html) that Omnigroup's (http://www.omnigroup.com) OmniWeb will hit version 5.0 in early 2003. The advantages to be expected include speed and accuracy in rendering:

"We're rewriting the whole display engine, everything above the HTML parser, so it no longer misuses Cocoa classes. Instead, we're going to write a lot more custom classes to make our rendering much faster and much more accurate," William Jon Shipley, president of the Omni Group, told NewsFactor.

chmorley
Jun 6, 2002, 10:40 PM
Sounds like this will likely address a number of issues that have been plaguing OW.

It's great that they are committing their resources to an undertaking this big. If they do this as well as they have done OmniGraffle (and others), we will end up with a browser better than IE for Windows (or at least as good).

Hopefully it will have tabs...

Chris

jg3
Jun 6, 2002, 10:47 PM
we're going to write...

I hope they've started rewriting stuff by now.. it'd be a dreadful 6-9 months if they still have to start all that stuff.

alex_ant
Jun 6, 2002, 10:57 PM
Now that we have nice anti-aliased fonts in Carbon apps, with Silk, what does OmniWeb have over, say, Mozilla? I used to use OmniWeb, but its rendering was too buggy and it was very choppy at scrolling pages. I hope they can correct these faults, but even if they do, I don't see why I would want to use it instead of something else...

soosy
Jun 6, 2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by jg3
we're going to write...

I hope they've started rewriting stuff by now.. it'd be a dreadful 6-9 months if they still have to start all that stuff.

hmmm, let's see... 6-9 months from now would be early 2003.

:)

Catfish_Man
Jun 6, 2002, 11:15 PM
...Omniweb has a lot of good stuff hooked to a really crappy renderer (according to some people from omnigroup). According to one of the guys on the Chimera development team, a good fully native browser (non-gecko, gecko isn't really native, it does everything itself) should be able to squish Chimera/Mozilla speedwise. If they make it standards compliant as well then gecko based browsers (which, right now, are the only non-omni browsers worth using) will have no advantages.

Beej
Jun 7, 2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by alex_ant
Now that we have nice anti-aliased fonts in Carbon apps, with Silk, what does OmniWeb have over, say, Mozilla? I used to use OmniWeb, but its rendering was too buggy and it was very choppy at scrolling pages. I hope they can correct these faults, but even if they do, I don't see why I would want to use it instead of something else... Scrolling in OW under 10.1.5 is much better.

I am giving Mozilla 1.0 the first ever serious 'might swap to it from OW if I like it enough' test I've done since using OW with OS X when it came out.

I am an avid OW supporter, but I have to say, i'm seriously considering sticking with Mozilla... :eek:

Anyone know how you make every window you open come up as a tab?

syntax
Jun 7, 2002, 02:01 AM
Did anyone else notice the weird anti-Cocoa slant of that article?

In other news, wasn't OW/5 originally supposed to be out by now? I guess we can look forward to middling 4.x betas for the rest of '02?

AmbitiousLemon
Jun 7, 2002, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by syntax
Did anyone else notice the weird anti-Cocoa slant of that article?

yes. it was very distasteful and out of place. omniweb is as great as it is because of cocoa. seemed odd for the writers to be attacking it.


its really great to see the omnigroup doing this. they really seem to be listening to the public. the sped things up. and when that wasnt good enough for us, they decided to rewrite everything. these guys are amazing. i cant wait to see what they have in store for us. considering ow was written before 10.0 came out im sure there is a lot of old code in there that could benefit from a rewrite with jaguar in mind. this could become something really amazing. and all this time i thought chimera was going to be THE browser. looks like ow is getting ready to blow chimera away.

i REALLY hope we see tabs, but i sort of doubt it. man if ow had tabs id switch right now.

sjs
Jun 7, 2002, 07:29 AM
Actually, in the article, a couple of our concerns are answered:

First, its a balanced view of Cocoa, its weaknesses and strengths, particularly as regards tables:

"It turns out that Cocoa views were never written to support several hundred of them on a window in a scroll view, so there's all kinds of slowness that happens when you do that. It's something we get dinged for all the time, and by just writing our own, very lightweight and much less general-purpose classes, we'll be able to get around it," said Shipley.

Later there are positive comments about Cocoa.

Also re: TABS...they are going to add them, though they may change the appearance somewhat. (see article)

OW has gotten better with each beta. I have to say I like it best overall, but maybe that is because I paid for a seat!

chmorley
Jun 7, 2002, 08:02 AM
I didn't read it that way. There is the quote from Shipley (OmniGroup president) about them using views in a way that was never intended, and how that costs them in speed. However, he then stated, "I feel confident in saying that Cocoa can't be killed now because too many people have been infected with how good it is." The most the reporter wrote was that Cocoa had "an ever-decreasing advantage over Carbon..." That's pretty indisputable.

And as for tabs, he said,
"We'll probably do something akin to tabbed browsing -- that was a good idea, I think from the Linux world, originally. We'll do it our way, though; I don't think they've necessarily got the best UI yet, but there's something good in the fundamental idea."
Sounds good. I just don't like the "probably". Sounds pretty definite, though.

Chris

shadowfax0
Jun 7, 2002, 08:33 AM
What are tabs? I am a bit confused...

sjs
Jun 7, 2002, 08:40 AM
You know on the Apple site how there is a series of tabs across the top? In Chimera each site you go to opens a new tab across the top, just like Apple's arrangement. First tab might say MSNBC, next tab might say MacRumors, third tab might say... To go back to that site, you just click on the tab and it's instantly there. Without a doubt it is the best feature in browsing to come along in a couple of years.

chmorley
Jun 7, 2002, 08:52 AM
Tabs are a different way of having multiple pages open at once, each one with a tab at the top. For many of the converted, it is the only way to surf. Currently, only Mozilla derivatives (Mozilla, Chimera, and Netscape) sport tabs. Try it for three days and just see if you can go back

Here is a screenshot. It is Mozilla with Navzilla skin and Silk.

Chris

sjs
Jun 7, 2002, 08:58 AM
Yesterday I tried to download Mozilla 1.0 and the installation went fine, but when I try to open the program for the first time it seems to freeze up. So I deleted and re-downloaded. Exact same problem! Ideas?

**How do you capture and how do you post your screenshots??

eunuchs
Jun 7, 2002, 10:31 AM
Beej:

If you go into Mozilla Preferences, under the Navigator->Tabbed Browsing option, there are a few options you can set to your liking. You can set Cmd-Click to open a link in a new tab, you can also set Ctrl-Enter to open a typed URL in a new tab as well. Some other nifty features, such as background loading.

With background loading, I go through a page, clicking links merrily without once being interrupted from actually reading... Once I finish an article, I flip to the next tab and so on. It makes for an awesome browsing experience.

chmorley:

Where did you find the Navzilla skin? I've tried all the theme pages listed on mozilla.org, but there hasn't been anything new on there for about 8 months. There's only a few (pretty ho-hum) skins to choose from.

BobVB
Jun 7, 2002, 10:54 AM
I guess my priorities are different, but I'd rather have a browser that fully supports all CSS tags and had sufficient javascript to at least access my bloody iTools account first! As it stands now the only browser I've found that currently does both is IE.

Tabs are 'cute' but I'd rather have a fully functional browser first - I know they won't be getting any of my money until it is.

ebow
Jun 7, 2002, 02:47 PM
chmorley,

Where did you find the Navzilla theme? It's basically Chimera Navigator's face, right? I'm sure many of us would like to slap that on Mozilla. thanks!

AmbitiousLemon
Jun 7, 2002, 02:49 PM
http://140.107.24.64/mozilla/navzilla/

http://www.kmgerich.com/pinstripe/pinstripe.html

http://140.107.24.64/mozilla/

ebow
Jun 7, 2002, 03:50 PM
Thanks, AmbitiousLemon... However, when I try to install and use the theme, Mozilla keeps bombing out. I'm using the final release version. Maybe I should try installing it, but not using it.

Update: Yep -- that did the trick. I installed it, quit (just being over-cautious), restarted, changed themes, restarted, and it works fine. :cool:

AmbitiousLemon
Jun 7, 2002, 03:55 PM
did you use the installer from that first link?

you are using mozilla 1.0?

if the answer to both is yes, id suggest emailing the author. the only problems ive had is when the installer is for an older version of mozilla than i am using.

eunuchs
Jun 7, 2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by BobVB
I guess my priorities are different, but I'd rather have a browser that fully supports all CSS tags and had sufficient javascript to at least access my bloody iTools account first! As it stands now the only browser I've found that currently does both is IE.

Tabs are 'cute' but I'd rather have a fully functional browser first - I know they won't be getting any of my money until it is.

Wow, this is simply a tremendous troll. But for the benefit of others who may be looking for an honest opinion, let's debunk:


Mozilla fully supports CSS1 and most of CSS2 (by fully, I mean it supports the W3C standard, not some half-assed implementation which forces developers to target their designs for certain browsers on certain platforms)
iDisk mounts fine. Webmail is fine. I don't know who uses iCards on a regular basis, but it appears to work fine. The only exception is Homepage. For all we know, this is because of poor coding on the part of Apple's web people, not Mozilla.
Mozilla is free - they don't want your money


99% of the time, if you encounter a problem browsing the web with Mozilla, it is because some developer only tested against IE. It's pretty hard to justify purposely breaking your standards-compliant browser to mangle pages just like your competitor. Much less do so without knowing the method behind the madness.

As for "fully functional"... I would hardly consider IE for Mac "fully functional". More like "mostly acceptable". It does an awful job of rendering tables and is slow as molasses. Truth is, I find more sites render correctly under Mozilla on the Mac, even when they recommend IE.

AmbitiousLemon
Jun 7, 2002, 06:10 PM
thank you eunuchs, very well organized.

odd how everytime there is a discussion of a non-MS browser troll sneak in.

the best advice i could give is to try something before attacking it. i would guess most of you use macs because you didnt listen to the crowd and went and tried to find what was best. try doing the same with your browser and i think you will be pleasantly surprised. its a little like not knowing what you are missing until you try something better. keep the mind open and dont be afraid to try something that will make things easier for you.

peace yo

Rower_CPU
Jun 7, 2002, 06:41 PM
Here's a good resource for CSS compatibility:
http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/

I'd be interested to see some updates with Mozilla 1.0...

chmorley
Jun 7, 2002, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by sjs
Yesterday I tried to download Mozilla 1.0 and the installation went fine, but when I try to open the program for the first time it seems to freeze up. So I deleted and re-downloaded. Exact same problem! Ideas?

**How do you capture and how do you post your screenshots??
A couple of ideas. If it freezes at the splash screen with the "Registering JS component nsHelperAppDlg.js" displayed, then it might be your skin. This happened to me going from RC 1 to RC 2. I had to start it in RC 1, revert to the "Modern" theme, then start RC 2. After this, switching to Pinstripe (which I was using at the time) was no problem. If this isn't when it happens, I just don't know. I have seen other people recommend removing the Mozilla prefs, but I haven't had to do this. Also, if you do, it will remove all of your bookmarks, cookies, etc., so I would avoid it. I'd bet there's a copy of these things somewhere, but it's probably a pain in the ass.

I take screenshots by hitting Command-Shift-3. I then convert them to JPG and reduce them in Photoshop so they are less than 120 K (the limit here). Attaching them is straightforward--click the "Browse" button (next to "Attach File") and navigate to the screenshot.

And BobVB, you obviously haven't tried Mozilla. You sound really stupid. Tabs are "cute" the way that pull down menus are cute. Go away.

Chris

soosy
Jun 7, 2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
thank you eunuchs, very well organized.


Yes, yes very well organized, indeed, but I believe the original poster was referring to Omniweb not Mozilla.

:)

but your points about Mozilla's compatibility still stand.

eunuchs
Jun 7, 2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by soosy


Yes, yes very well organized, indeed, but I believe the original poster was referring to Omniweb not Mozilla.


D'OH! Never even considered that... That would do a great deal to explain the payment comment.

/me earns his newbie stripes. ;)

BobVB
Jun 8, 2002, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by eunuchs


Wow, this is simply a tremendous troll. But for the benefit of others who may be looking for an honest opinion, let's debunk:


Who's the troll? This is a thread about Omniweb, not Monzilla. I haven't tried that since the last time I did it was totally unusable.

Its good to hear that it does support CSS and iTools, but the browser under discussion does not.

Try and use a mental 'style sheet' next time and keep your answers framed in the context of what the thread is about, Omniweb.

It is incomplete, it doesn't support CSS or iTools.

BobVB
Jun 8, 2002, 01:18 AM
Well, I downloaded Mozilla 1.0 and tried it - it does support CSS in all the tags I have on my website and seems to deal with the massive table of my family genealogy index in a third the time.

So I guess that settles it - Omniweb will probably never get my money :)

agent302
Jun 8, 2002, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by BobVB

It is incomplete, it doesn't support CSS or iTools.

Actually, Omniweb supports iTools just fine, it's just that iTools claims that Omniweb doesn't. If you just change the compatibility preferences to make Omniweb tell web pages that it's really IE, then iTools works wonderfully. Here's a screenshot of Webmail under Omniweb:

Rower_CPU
Jun 8, 2002, 01:44 AM
Sorry, but a browser masquerading as another one doesn't do it for me.

If a browser is truly compatible and people haven't designed web pages with specific browsers in mind we wouldn't ever need this "feature".:rolleyes:

BobVB
Jun 8, 2002, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by agent302


Actually, Omniweb supports iTools just fine, it's just that iTools claims that Omniweb doesn't. If you just change the compatibility preferences to make Omniweb tell web pages that it's really IE, then iTools works wonderfully. Here's a screenshot of Webmail under Omniweb:

been there, done that. Though the more pedestrian functions work, try going to the HomePage section - you will get selection rectangles that have no content where they should be listing web sites, pages, and files. That's why they restrict it from access - it won't work with all the features of iTools.

agent302
Jun 8, 2002, 02:19 AM
Yeah, I checked that out, you're right. However, I encourage you to not write off OmniWeb completely. It has a lot of cool features that other browsers don't (like the ability to block banner ads, a built in color-coded HTML editor, the ability to use Apple Spell Services (so that my typos in this post are underlined when I type them) and full use of sheets, drawers, and other cool Aqua widgets). Frankly, Mozilla's interface is a deal breaker for me for extended use (and yes, I have the Navzilla skin installed and I'm using Silk to provide Quartz text rendering) because it's just too slow. It shouldn't take 2 or 3 seconds for a new window to open when I type Cmd-N (and yeah, I could open a tab, but I've become really good at managing browser windows).

So, my basic assessment is, yeah, OW is lacking right now, but given what the OmniGroup is promising for OW 5, I have great faith in it becoming the browser to beat all browsers. The OmniGroup are very competent developers (see: OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, the many games they've helped port, and all their other apps), and are a great asset for Apple's cause.

BobVB
Jun 8, 2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by agent302
Yeah, I checked that out, you're right. However, I encourage you to not write off OmniWeb completely.

Well if its any consulation Mozilla 1.0 can't display the iTools Home Page either. As to giving up on Omniweb, just think of me as a modern day Diogenes searching the darkness for an complete IE replacement. As I stated in the beginning I can't find one. There is no Mac browser with full javascript and CSS support other than IE at the moment.

I'd love Omniweb to be fully functional (thought I'm not clear on the advantage of the 'drawers' they are more annoying to me.) Heck, I'd love for any 'other-than-IE' browerser to be fully functional!

But the search and the wait goes on.

j763
Jun 8, 2002, 11:39 AM
apple's pissing me off by forcing iTools users to use IE... And mozilla is a complete replacement for IE.

eunuchs
Jun 8, 2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by j763
apple's pissing me off by forcing iTools users to use IE... And mozilla is a complete replacement for IE.
Send them an email and tell them you want to use Mozilla. It really shouldn't be that difficult to fix the site. And I would be really surprised if Apple - given their recent subtle endorsment of Chimera - didn't want their own site to work with Mozilla too.

j763
Jun 8, 2002, 11:51 AM
k, fired off an email...

BobVB
Jun 8, 2002, 12:01 PM
of course its more complicated than that - since IE is the default browser shipped with the Mac they can't change the iTools site code to something incompatible with IE regardless if the page isn't currently what Mozilla considere's 'pure' code or not.

But it would be great if iTools did support Mozilla - I'll write a note today (if I can figure out just where such a message should go ;)

eunuchs
Jun 8, 2002, 12:32 PM
Apple's "Ideas and Comments" form for iTools:

http://itools.mac.com/WebObjects/Tools.woa/wa/iToolsComments?aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en

BobVB, they could easily support both browsers. It's done all the time, either through server-side browser detection, or client-side scripts. How do you think they deny OmniWeb? ;)

BobVB
Jun 8, 2002, 12:54 PM
thanks for the link - message sent. Maybe we should start a 'request campaign' to help nudge Apple off its addiction to the 'dark side'?

senjaz
Jun 10, 2002, 03:42 AM
Hurrah, someone else who understands what they're talking about.

IE's CSS implementation sucks. The biggest pain in the ass is how they interpret the 'width' property of a block element. According to W3.org the width is the inner width of an element excluding the widths of margins, borders and padding. OmniWeb and Mozilla both support this correctly. IE's width is the width of the entire element borders, padding, and all. This means your layouts will not display the same in IE and destroys the advantage of using CSS for precise positioning of elements.

Consider dropping down to using tables for layout? IE can totally ignore your width parameters in TD tags too, because it thinks it knows better than the author of the page <sarcasm>who obviously doesn't know what they are doing or know what they want their page to look like</sarcasm>

I've all but given up trying to write cross browser code that appears the same in all browsers. Now I write to HTML 4 or XHTML 1 standards and ensure it's basically viewable in IE. If there are display errors then to hell with them.

IE Mac doesn't even render pages as nicely as IE Win. Which is a big kick in the teeth, MS could atleast make their half assed attempt at browser software consistent across platforms.

Originally posted by eunuchs


Wow, this is simply a tremendous troll. But for the benefit of others who may be looking for an honest opinion, let's debunk:


Mozilla fully supports CSS1 and most of CSS2 (by fully, I mean it supports the W3C standard, not some half-assed implementation which forces developers to target their designs for certain browsers on certain platforms)
iDisk mounts fine. Webmail is fine. I don't know who uses iCards on a regular basis, but it appears to work fine. The only exception is Homepage. For all we know, this is because of poor coding on the part of Apple's web people, not Mozilla.
Mozilla is free - they don't want your money


99% of the time, if you encounter a problem browsing the web with Mozilla, it is because some developer only tested against IE. It's pretty hard to justify purposely breaking your standards-compliant browser to mangle pages just like your competitor. Much less do so without knowing the method behind the madness.

As for "fully functional"... I would hardly consider IE for Mac "fully functional". More like "mostly acceptable". It does an awful job of rendering tables and is slow as molasses. Truth is, I find more sites render correctly under Mozilla on the Mac, even when they recommend IE.