Latest Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard Builds Still Have Work to be Done

[MacsRgr8]

Apple is giving us the new Snow Leopard builds!!

:apple:

EDIT: tried a find, but couldn't find a thread on this topic.

[xUKHCx]

Any big changes noted in the seed notes ;)

[MacsRgr8]

Forgive me for not violating my NDA..... but reading the seed notes there still are MANY known issues...
Oh, and the Server requires an Intel with 2.0 GB of RAM. I'll give you that ;)

[xUKHCx]

I figured as much but thanks for the info. :)

Have you followed previous development cycles? If so how does this compare to previous OS X releases?

[MacsRgr8]

I figured as much but thanks for the info. :)

Have you followed previous development cycles? If so how does this compare to previous OS X releases?

I am still downloading this build. I have installed the previous version, so I'm dying to find out if it feels different, faster, etc.
I am on a 12 Mb connection, and downloading them both at the same time (2 x 6.2 GB...) takes a couple of hours, I'm afraid. :o

EDIT: pic of downloading :)

[xUKHCx]

I am still downloading this build. I have installed the previous version, so I'm dying to find out if it feels different, faster, etc.
I am on a 12 Mb connection, and downloading them both at the same time (2 x 6.2 GB...) takes a couple of hours, I'm afraid. :o

EDIT: pic of downloading :)

Sorry I meant in terms of 10.5, 10.4 etc. when referring to releases and development cycles.

[MacsRgr8]

Sorry I meant in terms of 10.5, 10.4 etc. when referring to releases and development cycles.

Ah, I see.

Yes, I have followed those betas too (actually, from Jaguar upwards), and TBO reading these seed notes it doesn't really look like the development is half way yet.
Don't want to sound pessimistic, but having 2 pages of "issues" (installation issues, Time Machine network backup issues, other issues, Developer issues, Third party issues) makes me think that Snow Leopard seems at least 6 months away from Release Candidate.

Also lots of ".... not fully functional"

But... Apple never ceases to amaze me... ;)

[Sky Blue]

Yes! nice nice nice. Any new notes on Exchange?

[MacsRgr8]

Yes! nice nice nice. Any new notes on Exchange?

Yep.
I'll say this: Apple is definitely working on it...

[Sky Blue]

Cool beans. Thanks for the heads up.

[Quillz]

I wonder if Apple will finally completely unify the UI in Snow Leopard... Leopard still has lots of Aqua artifacts left over, most notably the scroll bars.

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/12/03/latest-mac-os-x-10-6-snow-leopard-builds-still-have-work-to-be-done/)

AppleInsider reports (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/12/02/apples_snow_leopard_still_evolving_developers_say.html) that new seeds of Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard were recently distributed to developers.

The newest seed of Mac OS X 10.6 is said to offer new additions to Grand Central, which provides developers an easier way to harness the power of multiple processor cores. Apple's efforts to convert many of its existing apps to Cocoa are still underway but with much still left to be done on Font Book. Other areas that are undergoing ongoing revisions include power management for notebooks and 64-bit support.

While there had been some hints (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/11/18/mac-os-x-snow-leopard-10-6-due-in-q1-2009/) that Mac OS X 10.6 might arrive in the first quarter of 2009, Apple's official timeframe was "about a year" from this past June.

Article Link: Latest Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard Builds Still Have Work to be Done (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/12/03/latest-mac-os-x-10-6-snow-leopard-builds-still-have-work-to-be-done/)

[La Porta]

No need to rush - let's get it as stable as possible to make up for the 10.5 issues.

[matthemercyless]

Do we have any more information on whether Snow Leopard will support PowerPc based Macs? I have Leopard on my PowerBook and was wondering if it would benefit from the likes of using the GPU for general computing as promised in Snow Leopard?!

[Sky Blue]

Do we have any more information on whether Snow Leopard will support PowerPc based Macs? I have Leopard on my PowerBook and was wondering if it would benefit from the likes of using the GPU for general computing as promised in Snow Leopard?!

I'd say 99% chance it won't run on PPC, but until they say it officially you ever know.

Looking forward to getting rid of Entourage.

[doctoree]

No need to rush - let's get it as stable as possible to make up for the 10.5 issues.

You are right, especially the following is worth the wait:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=6541117&posted=1#post6541117

Doc

[Tallest Skil]

You are right, especially the following is worth the wait:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=6541117&posted=1#post6541117

I refuse to believe that we'll see the performance increase that he's claiming. It's just not possible with software.

[retroneo]

Do we have any more information on whether Snow Leopard will support PowerPc based Macs? I have Leopard on my PowerBook and was wondering if it would benefit from the likes of using the GPU for general computing as promised in Snow Leopard?!

OpenCL will require a DirectX 10-Class GPU, which weren't in any PowerBook.

[nado]

What does the Cocoa Finder look like?

[irishgrizzly]

OpenCL will require a DirectX 10-Class GPU, which weren't in any PowerBook.

Do all Intel macs have this requirement?

[motulist]

It sounds like a ton of the major os components are being largely or totally rewritten. While that's a great move for the future, I'm gonna steer WIDE clear of the 10.6.0 version and wait till a couple of last digit updates come out. A major under-the-hood rewrite of the OS code is sure to cause some serious problems at first.

I applaud Apple for doing this really worthwhile under-the-hood work that probably isn't gonna get as much attention or sales as some of the flashier OS cats that they've released in the past, but it's a very worthwhile investment in their long term sales. Still, I'm not gonna load Snow Leopard onto my Mac until the fallout from this major code rewrite has been smoothed over.

[MrCrowbar]

Do all Intel macs have this requirement?

GMA 950 (current Mac Minis, old Macbook) can't do DX10.
Guess I'll get some new hardware with Snow Leopard then.

[themoonisdown09]

It sounds like a ton of the major os components are being largely or totally rewritten. While that's a great move for the future, I'm gonna steer WIDE clear of the 10.6.0 version and wait till a couple of last digit updates come out. A major under-the-hood rewrite of the OS code is sure to cause some serious problems at first.


For the past 2 major OS releases, I've updated the day (or day after) it came out and haven't had any real problems. The main reason for this is probably because I don't use any of my Macs at my job, so I'm not on it all hours of the day.

[guzhogi]

GMA 950 (current Mac Minis, old Macbook) can't do DX10.
Guess I'll get some new hardware with Snow Leopard then.

I wonder if Macs will have Nehalem by the release date? If so, and Nehalem & Snow Leopard are as fast as people say, yowza!

[137489]

GMA 950 (current Mac Minis, old Macbook) can't do DX10.
Guess I'll get some new hardware with Snow Leopard then.

So I can't upgrade my wife's mini - darn.

when you say old macbook, I hope your not referring to anything pre-aluminum.... I have an early 2008 whitebook.

[SilverRubicon]

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that a product that is not due till next june still has issues. Shocking.

[Cromulent]

So I can't upgrade my wife's mini - darn.

Of course you can. It just won't get the benefit that some modern systems will see.

People don't seem to realise that the speed advantages when using things like OpenCL are only felt in mathematically intense operations such as video encoding. Graphics cards are rubbish at general processing. They are very specialised pieces of hardware designed to process huge amounts of data in a very parallel way very fast. This is not the best approach for all types of programs therefore the speed advantage will only be felt for those things that can take full advantage of it.

[smukkebenne]

OpenCL will require a DirectX 10-Class GPU, which weren't in any PowerBook.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but where did you read that? I would just like to know.

[137489]

Of course you can. It just won't get the benefit that some modern systems will see.

People don't seem to realise that the speed advantages when using things like OpenCL are only felt in mathematically intense operations such as video encoding. Graphics cards are rubbish at general processing. They are very specialised pieces of hardware designed to process huge amounts of data in a very parallel way very fast. This is not the best approach for all types of programs therefore the speed advantage will only be felt for those things that can take full advantage of it.

thanks. I may hold off on her mini though. turns out, since I moved it to the bed room and hooked it to the HD TV, she is using it less. Before that she would use it atleast 3 times a week for AOL chat rooms. But then again, we both have been extremely busy...

[fuziwuzi]

So I can't upgrade my wife's mini - darn.

when you say old macbook, I hope your not referring to anything pre-aluminum.... I have an early 2008 whitebook.

i was under the impression that snow leopard would allow a dx10 vid card to process data like video encoding. therefore, that it should be available to all intel macs, except those with old macs may not be able to use your gpu to process data

[rented mule]

Font Book is already Cocoa. What is MacRumors talking about?

[Shasterball]

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that a product that is not due till next june still has issues. Shocking.

I hear all products are issue-free after the first build...

[zorinlynx]

I honestly hope they take a long time with this release.

One of the nice things about Tiger was that it was current for a long time. Once they worked out the bugs, we had a stable OS X for several years, and it was wonderful.

I don't want to see them return to the rapid-fire release schedule. When they do that, it feels like the current release is only just becoming stable when the next one comes out.

And you can't just stay on the old release either; API changes and additions means it doesn't take long for new software to start requiring the newest release.

[ATimson]

when you say old macbook, I hope your not referring to anything pre-aluminum.... I have an early 2008 whitebook.
He is. (And actually, I think that even the current "WhiteBook" is ineligible.)

[WalrusCP]

He is. (And actually, I think that even the current "WhiteBook" is ineligible.)

I'm not sure that he is - from his phrasing it sounds like all intels post-GMA 950 are capable. This would indicate that the newer white books with the GMA X3100 specs are capable (Santa Rosa onward)

Would be nice to get clarification to be sure though.

[Maxington]

I would rather have something more complete and later than something sooner and buggy.

Apple is already way ahead of Micro$ofts distribution schedule of OS

[guzhogi]

Something I wish the new Finder would have is tabs. I personally find them useful. If you don't, you can just not use them.

[k2spitfire88]

Something I wish the new Finder would have is tabs. I personally find them useful. If you don't, you can just not use them.

how would that work???

[idea_hamster]

Font Book is already Cocoa. What is MacRumors talking about?

Maybe they mean that Font Book stinks? :D

My first reaction was, Huh? Apple's going to delay the SnOSX release because we're all waiting for...Font Book? Really?

[RichardI]

I applaud Apple for doing this really worthwhile under-the-hood work that probably isn't gonna get as much attention or sales as some of the flashier OS cats that they've released in the past, but it's a very worthwhile investment in their long term sales. Still, I'm not gonna load Snow Leopard onto my Mac until the fallout from this major code rewrite has been smoothed over.

I certainly agree with that. As a switcher from another unnamed OS :rolleyes:, it really impresses me that Apple does this.

Am I correct in assuming that this 'update' will have to be bought? As in, not free?

Rich :cool:

[Sky Blue]

Maybe they mean that Font Book stinks? :D

My first reaction was, Huh? Apple's going to delay the SnOSX release because we're all waiting for...Font Book? Really?

Most of Steve's Keynote will be on Font Book.

[rented mule]

Something I wish the new Finder would have is tabs. I personally find them useful. If you don't, you can just not use them.

Yeah well, I wish the new Finder would have drawers on each sides of the window to act as shelves. I personally find them useful. If you don't, you can just not use them.

[BigTRQ]

I'm not sure that he is - from his phrasing it sounds like all intels post-GMA 950 are capable. This would indicate that the newer white books with the GMA X3100 specs are capable (Santa Rosa onward)

Would be nice to get clarification to be sure though.
So any Intel Mac with a GMA950 won't be able to use Snow Leopard, or will they only be unable to take advantage of the GPU accelerations?

[foneschlomo]

Things I'm looking forward to in the new finder:

Each window features slide-out cocoa dispenser
Finder sweeps hard drive for "Private" files, corrals them into non-spotlightable folder
Using the built in iSight, finder windows become finder mirrors at the click of a button
New feature automatically steals music and movies from a LAN, called "Finder's Keepers"


I hope Apple doesn't find out I've broken my NDA.

[Dejavu]

Just how long does it take to release an interim OS? There are no new features, just a port to Coco. Anyway, I am excited. :)

[scottishwildcat]

how would that work???
Same way it works in other file managers I guess, e.g. Nautilus in GNOME (http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2008/07/08/its-done/), Konqueror in KDE (http://www.osugisakae.com/writings/lin2winxp/images/kde-tabs.png).

[darwinian]

I think that SL is on schedule this time. I think Leopard was plagued by iPhone OS development that pulled resources away from its completion. As much as said, in fact. All I know is that the initial iPhone era, along with stuff like Apple TV, made a lot of us wonder what the future of Apple ... Inc. would be.

But there's been a good amount of attention recently on Macs, and I'm pretty excited about what SL will bring on current hardware. I think it's going to be huge.

[poundsmack]

i would rather it be done right, than done quick.

[idea_hamster]

Most of Steve's Keynote will be on Font Book.

Interesting -- I would have expected him to use Keynote.... ;)

[Nick.]

I'd love something to edit tags of different file formats within Finder, almost like Windows Vista.

So like, you click an MP3 file for example, and a drawer slides out the bottom or the side of the Finder window, allowing you to change Artist, song name, album, composer, year and such...

[WalrusCP]

So any Intel Mac with a GMA950 won't be able to use Snow Leopard, or will they only be unable to take advantage of the GPU accelerations?

This particular question is about OpenCL requirements, not minimum requirements for Snow Leopard.

[GekkePrutser]

GMA 950 (current Mac Minis, old Macbook) can't do DX10.
Guess I'll get some new hardware with Snow Leopard then.

The GMA950 is so weak that OpenCL won't offer much of a benefit on it anyway.

[m1stake]

OpenCL has a DX10 requirement for the GPU? I haven't heard or read that, though I haven't looked. However, apply logic: Why would OpenCL care about what D3D requirements? Yes, all DX10 requires the pipelines to do both kinds of operations as opposed to DX9 which required 2 different pipelines for the operations. I don't think there is a shred of truth in that one.

[MShock]

Any news on file system compression? Any news on ZFS? (obviously without breaking the NDA)

[ivladster]

I hear all products are issue-free after the first build...

LOL Leopard had issues in September, but it was released in October. No worries. Apple can work on things very fast.

[dagamer34]

OpenCL has a DX10 requirement for the GPU? I haven't heard or read that, though I haven't looked. However, apply logic: Why would OpenCL care about what D3D requirements? Yes, all DX10 requires the pipelines to do both kinds of operations as opposed to DX9 which required 2 different pipelines for the operations. I don't think there is a shred of truth in that one.

Honestly, Apple writes its graphics code in OpenGL. DirectX and Apple do NOT GO TOGETHER.

[guzhogi]

OpenCL has a DX10 requirement for the GPU? I haven't heard or read that, though I haven't looked. However, apply logic: Why would OpenCL care about what D3D requirements? Yes, all DX10 requires the pipelines to do both kinds of operations as opposed to DX9 which required 2 different pipelines for the operations. I don't think there is a shred of truth in that one.

I would kinda like DX10 support in Mac OS X for making porting/developing games is easier, but I'm licensing would be a b!t¢h

Honestly, Apple writes its graphics code in OpenGL. DirectX and Apple do NOT GO TOGETHER.

Very true. While Apple is very into OpenGL, a lot of games are in DirectX. Grrr.

[gnasher729]

OpenCL has a DX10 requirement for the GPU? I haven't heard or read that, though I haven't looked. However, apply logic: Why would OpenCL care about what D3D requirements? Yes, all DX10 requires the pipelines to do both kinds of operations as opposed to DX9 which required 2 different pipelines for the operations. I don't think there is a shred of truth in that one.

I think when you write code for OpenCL, the programmer has to specify what features he or she needs from the hardware. OpenCL will then use the fastest available hardware that has all the features that are needed. I think DX10 has more well-defined floating-point arithmetic than DX9, so it may be that a DX10 card can run some software that a DX9 card wouldn't be able to run.

Apple will have to write code generators for any supported hardware; that is some effort, so they may concentrate on the most valuable hardware.

[skellener]

I just hope Snow Leopard is what they say it is. There are way too many issues with Leopard networking. I hope Snow Leopard can bring stability and consistency back to OS X. I'm looking forward to the release. Sooner rather than later, but I'd give up sooner, for delivering a rock solid product.

[muskratboy]

yeah, lots of work on Font Book... nothing new there. that piece of crap has needed lots of work since the second it was written. Probably the most useless app on the entire system.

maybe apple should just be smart and nix font book altogether... linotype fontexplorer is a million times better already. just use that.

[tongteh]

Things I'm looking forward to in the new finder:

Each window features slide-out cocoa dispenser
Finder sweeps hard drive for "Private" files, corrals them into non-spotlightable folder
Using the built in iSight, finder windows become finder mirrors at the click of a button
New feature automatically steals music and movies from a LAN, called "Finder's Keepers"


I hope Apple doesn't find out I've broken my NDA.

i admit i am a noob, but i just want to know know what this cocoa thing everyone is talking about for snow leopard and how would it benefit us?? :( thanks for the tips. :D

[koobcamuk]

For some crazy reason, I think a MacBook Air is my next computer. Snow Leopard should be great on it.

[Mousse]

No need to rush - let's get it as stable as possible to make up for the 10.5 issues.

I've been sticking with Tiger--and a lot of older versions of apps--because of all issues with Leopard.:( I hope Snow Leopard get released soon.:) That having been said, they shouldn't release it before it's ready. (How's that for flip-flopping.;) I would make a great politician.:rolleyes:)

[ChrisA]

Ah, I see.

Yes, I have followed those betas too (actually, from Jaguar upwards), and TBO reading these seed notes it doesn't really look like the development is half way yet.
Don't want to sound pessimistic, but having 2 pages of "issues" (installation issues, Time Machine network backup issues, other issues, Developer issues, Third party issues) makes me think that Snow Leopard seems at least 6 months away from Release Candidate.

Also lots of ".... not fully functional"

But... Apple never ceases to amaze me... ;)

Good. Apples target release date is June 09. Just about exactly 6 months away. This is from Steve's "about a year" statment he made in June 08.

However I do expect Apple to show off a preview or at least talk about 10.6 at the Jan 09 Macworld

[ChrisA]

The GMA950 is so weak that OpenCL won't offer much of a benefit on it anyway.

There are many common things the GMA950 would be very fast at. For example let's say you have an .jpg image that needs to be converted from sRGB to aRGB color space. The GMA950's shared RAM model might even be a great advantage in this case because you could map the data into the GPU's address space and not have to push it over a "slow" interface. Then the GPU could do all the 8-bit integer math very quickly.

[Krevnik]

There are many common things the GMA950 would be very fast at. For example let's say you have an .jpg image that needs to be converted from sRGB to aRGB color space. The GMA950's shared RAM model might even be a great advantage in this case because you could map the data into the GPU's address space and not have to push it over a "slow" interface. Then the GPU could do all the 8-bit integer math very quickly.

Are you sure that it would be an advantage? The big problem with shared RAM is that it is shared. The CPU is multi-tasking, and fetching from the same RAM store the GPU is. They can't do it simultaneously. Whereas a GPU with its own RAM doesn't have to wait to access the shared RAM.

I'd say the shared RAM model is still a detriment to performance here. With a dedicated RAM model, the GPU only needs two accesses to the CPU's RAM: read the raw image data, write the raw image data. A GPU on shared RAM is constantly hammering the CPU's RAM reading/writing data, and so is the CPU. They have to share the bandwidth, which winds up slowing both down.

The "slow" interface that plagues dedicated GPUs reading/writing to main memory is the same interface a GPU using shared RAM uses. ;)

[cyberakuma]

So any Intel Mac with a GMA950 won't be able to use Snow Leopard, or will they only be unable to take advantage of the GPU accelerations?

I imagine it will be similar to how CoreImage works on the 12" Powerbooks - their GPU was slow so they just run everything in software. Otherwise, people would have to write multiple versions of their code depending on whether or not a subsystem was available on certain machines - not a lot of fun.

[matticus008]

OpenCL has a DX10 requirement for the GPU? I haven't heard or read that, though I haven't looked. However, apply logic: Why would OpenCL care about what D3D requirements?
It doesn't. It just happens to be that the industry marks generational changes in GPU technology with the corresponding DirectX version that takes advantage of them. A DX10-class GPU would be something 2007 or newer, with specific capabilities, many of them related to offloading CPU work onto the GPU. Many of Tiger's new graphical technologies required a DX9-class GPU with programmable shaders and so on.
Honestly, Apple writes its graphics code in OpenGL. DirectX and Apple do NOT GO TOGETHER.
No, they do not. But OpenGL lacks a clear versioning system that would make a good shorthand for describing the capabilities of GPUs.

[craigverse]

New feature automatically steals music and movies from a LAN, called "Finder's Keepers"

Haha that's cool. Sometimes I get the impression apple comes up with a name, and then develop a feature around it though...

jp jp, but how fun that'd be! ;)

[m1stake]

I imagine it will be similar to how CoreImage works on the 12" Powerbooks - their GPU was slow so they just run everything in software. Otherwise, people would have to write multiple versions of their code depending on whether or not a subsystem was available on certain machines - not a lot of fun.

I imagine that's what's really important to Apple: Will it be fun to develop? Yes? OK, lets do it! No? Nah, lets go work on pointless features for the iPhone. :D

[JoeDRC]

Apart from safari and mail occasionally crashing, i've had zero issues with leopard :confused:
it seems quite stable to me

[dvkid]

For the past 2 major OS releases, I've updated the day (or day after) it came out and haven't had any real problems. The main reason for this is probably because I don't use any of my Macs at my job, so I'm not on it all hours of the day.

I updated the night Leopard was released (stood in line and got the tee shirt) and had one notable bug. iSight and Quartz Composer were not playing well until 10.5.1 was out, but all things considered it went pretty well.

I put 10.5 on my laptop and left my tower on 1.4 until 1.5.1 was out. My laptop goes everywhere with me and is my computer 95% of the time. Things went great, and Leopard has been great for me every since.

[dvkid]

i admit i am a noob, but i just want to know know what this cocoa thing everyone is talking about for snow leopard and how would it benefit us?? :( thanks for the tips. :D

Cocoa is a flavor of Objective-C, the programming language in which Mac OS X apps are written. Prior to Cocoa, Carbon was used. Currently, some apps are Carbon and some are Cocoa. As the OS has been optimied for Cocoa, that is the preferred choice and what Apple is now writing all of their own software (Mail, Address, Book, iMovie, etc.) in. Some third-party apps will continue to use Carbon, especially older apps that haven't been updated. And they won't run quite as well with the updates, but it won't be too terrible either.

[!¡ V ¡!]

I think that SL is on schedule this time. I think Leopard was plagued by iPhone OS development that pulled resources away from its completion. As much as said, in fact. All I know is that the initial iPhone era, along with stuff like Apple TV, made a lot of us wonder what the future of Apple ... Inc. would be.

But there's been a good amount of attention recently on Macs, and I'm pretty excited about what SL will bring on current hardware. I think it's going to be huge.

And because of this Apple should offer Snow Leopard at half price or some other discount to upgrade they intel based Mac(s). If this is offered I would jump all over it. :D

[flottenheimer]

"Let it snow! Let it snow! Let it snow!"

"I'm dreaming of a white Leopard"

...or wouldn't it be cool if Apple released Snow Leopard in April accompanied by the brilliant Prince classic "Sometimes It Snows in April (http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?i=260336565&id=260336005&s=143458)"

[seashellz]

I can wait until next June if SNOWLEOPARD isnt the Debacle-on-launch that 10.5 was; at 10.5.5 I still have various issues. And then theres that damn 10 year wait for permission repair.

10.5.6 reported "no known issues" over 2 weeks ago.
No 10.5.6
No seeds
No word

[flashy-cat]

Cocoa is a flavor of Objective-C, the programming language in which Mac OS X apps are written.

That's not quite true. Cocoa is Apple's name for the collection of software development frameworks, APIs, and accompanying runtimes that make up the development layer of Mac OS X.

[sfh]

I just hope they give the devs plenty of time to reveal the bugs and find fixes for them... I don't mind the wait I have the most stable OS in my office

[thejadedmonkey]

I'd love something to edit tags of different file formats within Finder, almost like Windows Vista.

So like, you click an MP3 file for example, and a drawer slides out the bottom or the side of the Finder window, allowing you to change Artist, song name, album, composer, year and such...

Cool, I won't get Vista with Win7 right around the corner, but this is looking like it'll be a quite expensive summer... Snow Leopard, Win 7, and SC2 all around the same time...

[jackfrost123]

Cool, I won't get Vista with Win7 right around the corner, but this is looking like it'll be a quite expensive summer... Snow Leopard, Win 7, and SC2 all around the same time...

What is sc2?

[Mackilroy]

I can wait until next June if SNOWLEOPARD isnt the Debacle-on-launch that 10.5 was; at 10.5.5 I still have various issues. And then theres that damn 10 year wait for permission repair.

10.5.6 reported "no known issues" over 2 weeks ago.
No 10.5.6
No seeds
No word

I've never had a single issue with any version of 10.5. It wasn't nearly a big of a debacle as your words claim.

As for 10.5.6, it'll come when it comes. Patience is a virtue. :)

What is sc2?

Starcraft 2.

[MrCrowbar]

I'm not sure that he is - from his phrasing it sounds like all intels post-GMA 950 are capable. This would indicate that the newer white books with the GMA X3100 specs are capable (Santa Rosa onward)

Would be nice to get clarification to be sure though.

I know that the Intel GMA 950 can't do DX10. Not sure about the GMA X3100.

I expect there will be a big speed improvement with Snow Leopard nevertheless, even with the first Intel Macs.

[MrCrowbar]

Cool, I won't get Vista with Win7 right around the corner, but this is looking like it'll be a quite expensive summer... Snow Leopard, Win 7, and SC2 all around the same time...

I hear ya! I'm excited about Starcraft 2, too. Actually it got me into playing the first one again, Blizzard ist still patching it almost every month. It's awesome on network.

My hardware (see sig) won't run SC2, but it runs liquid war (google it). That game is awesome and you can play with 6 people on the same computer. It's insanely simple and fun!

[grue]

"…areas that are undergoing ongoing revisions include power management for notebooks and 64-bit support"

I'm slightly confused by this. Are they implying that 64bit support isn't fully implemented yet? I was under the impression that Snow Leopard is to be a 64bit ONLY release. (Thus perhaps not having a retardedly bloated install like Leopard…)

[MShock]

"…areas that are undergoing ongoing revisions include power management for notebooks and 64-bit support"

I'm slightly confused by this. Are they implying that 64bit support isn't fully implemented yet? I was under the impression that Snow Leopard is to be a 64bit ONLY release. (Thus perhaps not having a retardedly bloated install like Leopard…)

my interpretation is that the new 64-bit kernal needs a lot of polish.

[grue]

my interpretation is that the new 64-bit kernal needs a lot of polish.

Hopefully you're right. I've been waiting for a lightweight OS X version for a while now :o

[-hh]

One of the nice things about Tiger was that it was current for a long time. Once they worked out the bugs, we had a stable OS X for several years, and it was wonderful.

"was"? Tiger is still doing fine for some of us...


I've been sticking with Tiger--and a lot of older versions of apps--because of all issues with Leopard.

Personally, I didn't find Leopard all that compelling ... overall, it appears to me to mostly be a couple of Desktop/Finder UI tweaks and it introduced Time Machine to try to replace my existing data backup utility; adding RAM was a better value for me.

Ditto for a lot of the more recent Applications updates. Big Yawn and a glance at the price tag ... gosh, I think that I'll pass and buy the next one.

Maybe MS got the clue when they slashed Mac Office for Black Friday; now if Adobe would only do the same (still peeved that I own all the individual licences in the 'Creative Suite', but since I didn't buy them as a cheaper CS bundle, I'm not eligible for the cheaper CS upgrade price...how's that for a double-whammy?).


-hh

[grue]

(still peeved that I own all the individual licences in the 'Creative Suite', but since I didn't buy them as a cheaper CS bundle, I'm not eligible for the cheaper CS upgrade price...how's that for a double-whammy?).[/I]


-hh

Call them. I was in a similar boat and they sold me a full version of CS3 (at the time) for a substantial discount.

[Quillz]

"was"? Tiger is still doing fine for some of us...




Personally, I didn't find Leopard all that compelling ... overall, it appears to me to mostly be a couple of Desktop/Finder UI tweaks and it introduced Time Machine to try to replace my existing data backup utility; adding RAM was a better value for me.

Ditto for a lot of the more recent Applications updates. Big Yawn and a glance at the price tag ... gosh, I think that I'll pass and buy the next one.

Maybe MS got the clue when they slashed Mac Office for Black Friday; now if Adobe would only do the same (still peeved that I own all the individual licences in the 'Creative Suite', but since I didn't buy them as a cheaper CS bundle, I'm not eligible for the cheaper CS upgrade price...how's that for a double-whammy?).


-hh
I don't know... Leopard actually added quite a bit to Mac OS X. It brought true 64-bit support, Core Animation and a lot of user interface improvements. I can certainly understand why someone would prefer to stick with Tiger, as it's proven and works, but Leopard was much more than just "Desktop tweaks."

[seashellz]

>>>I've never had a single issue with any version of 10.5. It wasn't nearly a big of a debacle as your words claim.

Speak for yourself


>>>>As for 10.5.6, it'll come when it comes...
Sage observation--If it came out even one minute BEFORE that point-I would be worried sick

[Catfish_Man]

"…areas that are undergoing ongoing revisions include power management for notebooks and 64-bit support"

I'm slightly confused by this. Are they implying that 64bit support isn't fully implemented yet? I was under the impression that Snow Leopard is to be a 64bit ONLY release. (Thus perhaps not having a retardedly bloated install like Leopard…)

Your impression is incorrect. 32 bit machines are supported fine. The install is smaller, but that's for other reasons.

[twoodcc]

glad to see that another build has been seeded! means that we're one step closer to snow leopard! i hope we get to see a lot more about it at macworld

[MrCrowbar]

"…areas that are undergoing ongoing revisions include power management for notebooks and 64-bit support"

I'm slightly confused by this. Are they implying that 64bit support isn't fully implemented yet? I was under the impression that Snow Leopard is to be a 64bit ONLY release. (Thus perhaps not having a retardedly bloated install like Leopard…)

Leopard isn't 64 bit on all the levels. Yes, I know they touted TIger to be "64 bit", then Leopard was even more "64 bit". In Snow Leopard, the actual Kernel (the core of the operating system) is 64 bit, so it can actually make use of the 64 bit CPU (Core 2) on a deeper level. Leopard only "supports" 64 bit you might say, Snow Leopard actually runs on 64 bit (and 32). Even on a 32 bit System (Macbook in my signature), there's worlds of difference between Leopard and the current Snow Leopard seed, so don't worry, even your old Intel Mac will get a nice boost.

If you want a more elaborate explanation, it's all here: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/28/road_to_mac_os_x_snow_leopard_64_bit_to_the_kernel.html

[grue]

Leopard isn't 64 bit on all the levels. Yes, I know they touted TIger to be "64 bit", then Leopard was even more "64 bit". In Snow Leopard, the actual Kernel (the core of the operating system) is 64 bit, so it can actually make use of the 64 bit CPU (Core 2) on a deeper level. Leopard only "supports" 64 bit you might say, Snow Leopard actually runs on 64 bit (and 32). Even on a 32 bit System (Macbook in my signature), there's worlds of difference between Leopard and the current Snow Leopard seed, so don't worry, even your old Intel Mac will get a nice boost.

If you want a more elaborate explanation, it's all here: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/28/road_to_mac_os_x_snow_leopard_64_bit_to_the_kernel.html


Fair enough. I hadn't looked into it much, I was hoping it was a "screw the past, onward to the future" type thing.

[alexbates]

I just hope they give the devs plenty of time to reveal the bugs and find fixes for them... I don't mind the wait I have the most stable OS in my office

I hope the same thing. I have 10.5.5 and my Mac seems to have more problems than anytime in the past three years I've had it.

Vista has no chance of surviving after Snow Leopard. Hopefully converting most of the apps to cocoa will require less memory than ever before.

Does anyone know if the Finder is supposed to be converted to Cocoa?

[AidenShaw]

Vista has no chance of surviving after Snow Leopard.

Perhaps you've noticed that Windows 7 and OSX 10.6 are coming out at about the same time?

No, I'm sure that you haven't noticed....

[Catfish_Man]

Hopefully converting most of the apps to cocoa will require less memory than ever before.

It's an interesting thing to consider. I'm unsure on it myself. There's factors that would indicate higher memory usage (64 bit, and Cocoa itself not being all that svelte in certain ways), and factors that would indicate lower memory usage (all the ones I can remember right now are NDA'd, but they are there). My expectation is that they're aiming for an overall improvement in memory usage despite 64 bit, but we'll see.


Does anyone know if the Finder is supposed to be converted to Cocoa?

It is; I suspect this is largely because of the move to 64 bit, since all the Carbon UI APIs are absent in 64 bit apps.

[grue]

Here's to hoping the 10.6 Finder isn't the bloated, buggy pile of crap we've grown to expect lately…

[richard.mac]

^ Finder is bloated and buggy? on the contrary i find it very lightweight and never hangs like Tiger's Finder used to do in some situations.

[alexbates]

Perhaps you've noticed that Windows 7 and OSX 10.6 are coming out at about the same time?

No, I'm sure that you haven't noticed....

No, I didn't know that. It's going to be interesting to see how Windows 7 compares to Vista, and how Windows 7 compares to OSX 10.6

[Data]

I'm really not getting my hopes to far up speed increase wise with the snow leopard. Even evry time i upgraded my mac's hardware wise the difference was not even that big as i expectted, i went from a 2,7 liquid cooled g5 to an 8 core 2,8 mac pro , and i was a bit dissapointed with it.
It's a great machine don't get me wrong but still there are the beachballs and stuff like that, of course video encoding and decoding goes faster but overall use feeels sort of the same.
But maybe the software is were the great gain can be made now and that is why they chose to go for a snow leopard to speed things up software wise, i'll guess we will know in 6 months ;-).

[grue]

^ Finder is bloated and buggy? on the contrary i find it very lightweight and never hangs like Tiger's Finder used to do in some situations.

It's slow to respond, it uses far too many resources, and it has some heinous bugs in it. One of my favourites: If you copy a folder with several thousand files and subfolders and it hits one problem, it'll stop the copy completely. The only way around it is to use the terminal to do any copying, and it'll notify you when a copy fails on a given file, and continues doing what it's supposed to after that.

[grue]

I'm really not getting my hopes to far up speed increase wise with the snow leopard. Even evry time i upgraded my mac's hardware wise the difference was not even that big as i expectted, i went from a 2,7 liquid cooled g5 to an 8 core 2,8 mac pro , and i was a bit dissapointed with it.
It's a great machine don't get me wrong but still there are the beachballs and stuff like that, of course video encoding and decoding goes faster but overall use feeels sort of the same.
But maybe the software is were the great gain can be made now and that is why they chose to go for a snow leopard to speed things up software wise, i'll guess we will know in 6 months ;-).

Overall usage speed improvements would require Apple to get off their ass and write decent code. Don't hold your breath ;)

[richard.mac]

It's slow to respond, it uses far too many resources, and it has some heinous bugs in it. One of my favourites: If you copy a folder with several thousand files and subfolders and it hits one problem, it'll stop the copy completely. The only way around it is to use the terminal to do any copying, and it'll notify you when a copy fails on a given file, and continues doing what it's supposed to after that.

my Finder is very snappy and is hardly using any resources; 0% CPU usage and 10 MB of real memory usage while idling on my MacBook Pro which only reboots for Boot Camp and updates. only annoying thing is Quick Look previews taking a while to load in Cover Flow which probably has something to do with me having < 2GB of memory.

fair enough on the copying issue. but doesnt a stop and continue window pop up? what happens when you press continue?

[grue]

my Finder is very snappy and is hardly using any resources; 0% CPU usage and 10 MB of real memory usage while idling on my MacBook Pro which only reboots for Boot Camp and updates. only annoying thing is Quick Look previews taking a while to load in Cover Flow which probably has something to do with me having < 2GB of memory.

fair enough on the copying issue. but doesnt a stop and continue window pop up? what happens when you press continue?

No stop and continue, it simply fails hard.

It's a hell of a lot better in Leopard than it has been in OS X revisions past, but it's still unacceptable how long it takes for it to calculate sizes and such.

[Stridder44]

No, I didn't know that. It's going to be interesting to see how Windows 7 compares to Vista, and how Windows 7 compares to OSX 10.6

Indeed, because Windows 7 is actually looking to very good (even in its current pre-beta form). They showed it running very well on a netbook.

I'm really excited about both Snow Leopard and Windows 7. :D

[Winni]

I'm really not getting my hopes to far up speed increase wise with the snow leopard. Even evry time i upgraded my mac's hardware wise the difference was not even that big as i expectted, i went from a 2,7 liquid cooled g5 to an 8 core 2,8 mac pro , and i was a bit dissapointed with it.

Try running 64-Bit Windows Vista SP1 on it. It blows Leopard out of the water. At least it does so on my Quad Core Mac Pro with 8 GB RAM - and Leopard already is running very well on that machine and it also is fun to use. But still, Vista 64 SP1 runs even better.

64-Bit Vista is a completely different beast than its slow 32-Bit sibling. It seems that the guys at Microsoft spend the five years developing the 64-Bit version and the 32-Bit edition was just an afterthought; it's difficult to come up with a better explanation for the huge performance difference between both architecture versions.

To be honest, there are only two reasons keeping me from going back to Windows: The large investment in software for OS X that I've made in the last few years and the fact that I still find Windows's bubble boxes very annoying when they pop up every few minutes.

However, my early 2007 Mac Pro is a great 64-Bit Windows machine, although Apple does not officially support 64-Bit Vista on it. But since Vista does not know that, it still runs perfectly. (Except for Bluetooth, you don't even need the bloody BootCamp drivers to get everything running.) ;-)

[Data]

Try running 64-Bit Windows Vista SP1 on it. It blows Leopard out of the water. At least it does so on my Quad Core Mac Pro with 8 GB RAM - and Leopard already is running very well on that machine and it also is fun to use. But still, Vista 64 SP1 runs even better.

64-Bit Vista is a completely different beast than its slow 32-Bit sibling. It seems that the guys at Microsoft spend the five years developing the 64-Bit version and the 32-Bit edition was just an afterthought; it's difficult to come up with a better explanation for the huge performance difference between both architecture versions.

To be honest, there are only two reasons keeping me from going back to Windows: The large investment in software for OS X that I've made in the last few years and the fact that I still find Windows's bubble boxes very annoying when they pop up every few minutes.

However, my early 2007 Mac Pro is a great 64-Bit Windows machine, although Apple does not officially support 64-Bit Vista on it. But since Vista does not know that, it still runs perfectly. (Except for Bluetooth, you don't even need the bloody BootCamp drivers to get everything running.) ;-)

Well let's hope that the programmers at Apple are doing the same thing with snow leopard getting that to run really fast at 64 bit then , windows is not an option for me for the same reason, investments in software and hard ware over the years ;-).

[ogbuke]

Leopard works great for me, can't wait for Snow Leopard.

[Stridder44]

Try running 64-Bit Windows Vista SP1 on it. It blows Leopard out of the water. At least it does so on my Quad Core Mac Pro with 8 GB RAM - and Leopard already is running very well on that machine and it also is fun to use. But still, Vista 64 SP1 runs even better.

64-Bit Vista is a completely different beast than its slow 32-Bit sibling. It seems that the guys at Microsoft spend the five years developing the 64-Bit version and the 32-Bit edition was just an afterthought; it's difficult to come up with a better explanation for the huge performance difference between both architecture versions.

To be honest, there are only two reasons keeping me from going back to Windows: The large investment in software for OS X that I've made in the last few years and the fact that I still find Windows's bubble boxes very annoying when they pop up every few minutes.

However, my early 2007 Mac Pro is a great 64-Bit Windows machine, although Apple does not officially support 64-Bit Vista on it. But since Vista does not know that, it still runs perfectly. (Except for Bluetooth, you don't even need the bloody BootCamp drivers to get everything running.) ;-)

Amen. The difference between 64-bit Windows and 32-bit Windows feels like night and day.

[sangosimo]

Amen. The difference between 64-bit Windows and 32-bit Windows feels like night and day.

vista's superfetch is actually useful when you have alot of ram. Windows has so many more 64bit apps than osx. Apple really needs to get on the ball.

[iGrant]

I wish there was another way to get the lastest build of Snow Leopard other than paying 499 bucks to get the Developers Preview.

HAHAHA I love testing out new OS, but I just don't have the funds to do it! I wish Apple made a program just for people who wanted to test out the lastest builds!

-iGrant

[grue]

I wish there was another way to get the lastest build of Snow Leopard other than paying 499 bucks to get the Developers Preview.

HAHAHA I love testing out new OS, but I just don't have the funds to do it! I wish Apple made a program just for people who wanted to test out the lastest builds!

-iGrant

So, you like pain?

[iGrant]

So, you like pain?

No I just like to help test out software. I love seeing what's new and up coming. If I had the money I would get the developers basic membership In a heartbeat just for the Mac OS X previews.

-iGrant

[SFStateStudent]

Yup, let's not release it too early, like MWSF '09. Give it some time to get more of the kinks out...:eek: