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arn
Jun 7, 2002, 09:13 AM
This vfxpro article (http://www.vfxpro.com/brief/mainv/0,2444,35749,00.html) reports that Silicon Grail has been sold to an undisclosed buyer.

According to vfxpro, Insiders speculate that the buyer is Apple.

Silicon Grail (http://www.silicongrail.com/) publishes Rayz (http://www.silicongrail.com/products/rayz_about.html):

RAYZ is a completely new compositing product, written from scratch by Silicon Grailís Academy Award winning development team.

RAYZ facilitates the smooth and easy set up of shots. The customizable interface conforms quickly to individual working styles, and permits a very quick test-and-edit shot development cycle.

Ensign Paris
Jun 7, 2002, 09:30 AM
I would assume it would be Apple they have been buying alot recently, I don't really understand Film Editing to the deegree of some of you people although I had started to use FCP alot more until the disaster.

Ensign

iGav
Jun 7, 2002, 09:51 AM
If this is Apple it really is trying to make head way into the Hi-End DV Post market, although I'm not sure why they'd want another compositing piece of software when they have only recently purchased Nothing Real and with that Shake.......

But I'm of the mind the more the merrier..... so bring it on...... although I'd guess with Apples current "Lets make Hollywood Special effects our own" approach...... then there must be some serious hardware in the works to run the stuff......

Just a thought........ :D

Spart
Jun 7, 2002, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by iGAV
If this is Apple it really is trying to make head way into the Hi-End DV Post market, although I'm not sure why they'd want another compositing piece of software when they have only recently purchased Nothing Real and with that Shake.......

But I'm of the mind the more the merrier..... so bring it on...... although I'd guess with Apples current "Lets make Hollywood Special effects our own" approach...... then there must be some serious hardware in the works to run the stuff......

Just a thought........ :D

You're right, it's called a GeForce 4 Ti.

Quartz Extreme is going to blow us away in more ways than one.

Mr. Anderson
Jun 7, 2002, 11:05 AM
Has anyone here ever used this software? Its mostly for Windows/Linux/Unix systems, no mac version.

But, wow, it is a slick app. Incorporating some of those features into FCP would be unbelievable. Again, all this potential, Apple, don't let us down....

DaveGee
Jun 7, 2002, 11:12 AM
Something strange that I noticed... This latest App doesn't do/use OpenGL (from what the web site said anyway). I also agree that Apple had better have some 'serious' hardware on tap for this stuff since a 133Mhz motherboard with dual 1Ghz G4's will not make for happy users.

Apple will have the hardware to support this stuff (why else buy these types of companies?) but I'm still not so sure it's gonna show it's face in NY this summer.

Dave

slaboda
Jun 7, 2002, 11:59 AM
This is from thier FAQ section:

What about Apple OS/X?

It is our intention to port RAYZ to OS/X, but the current state of OS/X makes that too difficult. When Apple has matured OS/X to the appropriate point, we will do a version for that operating system.

http://www.silicongrail.com/products/rayz_faq.html

It appears that they are at least Mac friendly, and perhaps have even done some preliminary development for X.

Q-bert
Jun 7, 2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
Has anyone here ever used this software? Its mostly for Windows/Linux/Unix systems, no mac version.

But, wow, it is a slick app. Incorporating some of those features into FCP would be unbelievable. Again, all this potential, Apple, don't let us down....
I've seen it at industry trade shows, but never used it myself. From what I've seen, it's really not that different from Shake, so why Apple would buy this is kind of confusing. Maybe they had something specific that Apple wanted. Regardless, I don't think they'll sell Rayz alongside Shake, though - one of them will have to go and get merged into the other. You can't have two high-end compositing products doing almost exactly the same thing in one company. It'd be like Apple buying Premiere and selling both FCP and Premiere alongside each other for the same price.

This is clearly all leading up to something. Why they would buy two different compositing apps within a few months time has to be a sign of something bigger brewing at Apple...

Tue12
Jun 7, 2002, 01:43 PM
First, who bought the company is unknown to the public.

Second, even if Apple bought it doesn't mean there is some extraordinary, world changing Apple product being made.

The company was either purchased for its intellectual property, for the skills of its programmers, or HELLO, maybe to compete against Apple's Shake ... D-UH! it could be Adobe or Microsoft lining up a new FCP-killer or Shake-killer.

What's that old expression, "Give you guys one bit and end you take a whole terabyte." :D

johnpaul191
Jun 7, 2002, 01:43 PM
it was just speculation that they were bought by Apple..... but how many companies were rumored to be bought out by Apple in the last year that never happened? quite a few. everything from SGI to Palm to countless software companies. if Apple picked them up i would assume it is some specific they wanted.... it does seem like it's close to shake, but who knows. time will tell.

Royal Pineapple
Jun 7, 2002, 02:16 PM
Could it be that apple is just trying to make money, seems to me that the whole point of buying companys is to make money. They know that the profesional movie industry pulls in large amounts of cash, and they are just trying to get there fingers wet with the software market. there neadnt be any new computers, they just let the company go wile they rake in the dough. its a win win situation.
-royal

aafuss1
Jun 7, 2002, 04:40 PM
I wouldn't think Microsoft would acquire the company.

swahilibill
Jun 8, 2002, 01:35 AM
What the heck is this new company?

Scottgfx
Jun 8, 2002, 02:38 AM
If it is Apple, I think it's a very smart move. Right now, the most used compositing app is After Effects from Adobe. While it's not used as much in high-end film compositing, it is used some and used by many in television and broadcast. For a compositing app to unseat After Effects, it not only has to be better, it has to be a lot better. Case in point: Combustion from Discreet is a very high-end compositing and painting app. While many feel that it's better than After Effects, not many are moving over to it. We are are comfortable using AE and don't have a strong urge to change. If Apple has indeed bought Silicon Grail, then they have a much superior development team. While I do like After Effects, I wouldn't mind something better and less menu-driven'. Adobe is already on the offensive. They are meeting with users at some select high-end clients to get feedback. Sadly, they are not asking me what I think.

I wouldn't expect all of this to built into Final Cut, but do expect an application that works well with it. While similar, editing and compositing are different things.

j763
Jun 8, 2002, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by Scottgfx
app to unseat After Effects

Apple seems to be unseating a lot of apps from various third-party developers recently...

iGav
Jun 8, 2002, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by Scottgfx
If it is Apple, I think it's a very smart move. Right now, the most used compositing app is After Effects from Adobe. While it's not used as much in high-end film compositing, it is used some and used by many in television and broadcast. For a compositing app to unseat After Effects, it not only has to be better, it has to be a lot better. Case in point: Combustion from Discreet is a very high-end compositing and painting app. While many feel that it's better than After Effects, not many are moving over to it. We are are comfortable using AE and don't have a strong urge to change. If Apple has indeed bought Silicon Grail, then they have a much superior development team. While I do like After Effects, I wouldn't mind something better and less menu-driven'. Adobe is already on the offensive. They are meeting with users at some select high-end clients to get feedback. Sadly, they are not asking me what I think.

I wouldn't expect all of this to built into Final Cut, but do expect an application that works well with it. While similar, editing and compositing are different things.

I use Combustion alot, and it really is a superb product........ although I wouldn't really compare it to After Effects both have their own pro's and con's.... and are really targetted at completely different markets......I use both though regularly, but understand what you say about AE being menu driver..... they working environment is no where near as intuitive as Combustion, that said Discreet's other post packages are even better...... particularly Flame.......

What I still can't understand it why they would buy another compositing app??? they have Shake, that is arguably higher end than Rayz....... so I really don't see the need for Apple to have another compositing product...... Rayz is too expensive to feasibly lower the price down to AE Production Bundle and Combustion prices.........

But as I said in an earlier post... if it is Apple.... then bring it on......... :D ;)

DaveGee
Jun 8, 2002, 10:08 AM
While this means nothing to me (not being in the field) I saw that Silicon Grail owned some technology from Kodak (Cineon). Could this be a reason for the buyout?

Dave

Scottgfx
Jun 8, 2002, 08:55 PM
I have the Combustion demo, I really need to sit down with it more!

Remember what Adobe did. After Effects, even after the developer (CoSA) was bought by Aldus, retained it's $4,000 (Around there anyway) per seat license. After Adobe bought Aldus, they soon released version 3 for around $1,500 for the full Production Bundle. After that, the user base exploded!

I see Apple doing something like this, but even more important is that they are driving people into the Macintosh line. By reducing the number of high-end compositing apps that run on other platforms, they are elevating the position of the Mac for this type of work.

I think this will work, only if Apple is bringing out the big-iron that will suit the movie industry's need for high volume output. The upcoming FC-RAID is only a part of what is needed. I'd like to hear more about that rumored high-end display card that Apple is supposedly working on. They'll need it for those 4K Cineon frames. :)


Originally posted by iGAV


I use Combustion alot, and it really is a superb product........ although I wouldn't really compare it to After Effects both have their own pro's and con's.... and are really targetted at completely different markets......I use both though regularly, but understand what you say about AE being menu driver..... they working environment is no where near as intuitive as Combustion, that said Discreet's other post packages are even better...... particularly Flame.......

What I still can't understand it why they would buy another compositing app??? they have Shake, that is arguably higher end than Rayz....... so I really don't see the need for Apple to have another compositing product...... Rayz is too expensive to feasibly lower the price down to AE Production Bundle and Combustion prices.........

But as I said in an earlier post... if it is Apple.... then bring it on......... :D ;)

tjwett
Jun 9, 2002, 12:14 AM
I think it makes perfect sense for Apple to own both Shake and Rayz. If they own both, well that's one less competitor isn't it? They could keep one as high-end, and one as low-end. Or combine the best of both into one app and dissolve the other. They could take the bits they like from both and incorporate them into their own stuff like FCP or something totally new. The idea is that they corner the market and kind of have a little monopoly going where they could say "hey, if you need this technology then you better get a Mac." I don't really have an opinion if they did or not but if they did it would be a good move for a good reason. my 2 cents.

thedude
Jun 9, 2002, 12:34 AM
I do believe that Apple is learning...
tjwett, it DOES make perfect sense. Everyone that I talked to was a little pissed that Apple cut NT support for shake, and were planning on switching to Rayz. When they heard that Apple bought SG, they didn't seem to have another program to run to. Sure, combustion is great, but it's target market isn't the same.

These programs are not for DV users. I believe that Apple is trying to round out their prosumer software line. FCP with Cinema Tools, DVD Studio pro, and probably in the near future, a prosumer node based compositing package to tie it all together. Imagine ONE MAC running all this software to capture, composite, and output FILM RES plates. cool...

They're also positioning themselves for a big splash at Sigraph this year. Rumor has it that they have a HUGE booth. (maybe to intro a new graphics card and compositing software?) I think that Apple is tired of waiting for the 3D community to come to them, so they just decided to take it over. Now all they need to do is aquire alias wavefront and possibly Discreet (yea right) and they'll own hollywood. (with a hardware boost of course!)

:eek:

iGav
Jun 9, 2002, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by Scottgfx
I have the Combustion demo, I really need to sit down with it more!

Remember what Adobe did. After Effects, even after the developer (CoSA) was bought by Aldus, retained it's $4,000 (Around there anyway) per seat license. After Adobe bought Aldus, they soon released version 3 for around $1,500 for the full Production Bundle. After that, the user base exploded!

I see Apple doing something like this, but even more important is that they are driving people into the Macintosh line. By reducing the number of high-end compositing apps that run on other platforms, they are elevating the position of the Mac for this type of work.

I think this will work, only if Apple is bringing out the big-iron that will suit the movie industry's need for high volume output. The upcoming FC-RAID is only a part of what is needed. I'd like to hear more about that rumored high-end display card that Apple is supposedly working on. They'll need it for those 4K Cineon frames. :)


I hear ya...... After Effects 3 was when I first started working with the software....... and certainly now, the amount of people that use After Effects has just exploded since V3......... making the technology more accessible through price is certainly good way of getting people to use it.......

I like AE's animation capabilities, and use it alot for title sequence design...... but when I'm doing serious compositing Combustion really makes the difference...... you should definitely sit down and have a play with the demo..... it really is an intuitive package to learn.......

it DOES make perfect sense. Everyone that I talked to was a little pissed that Apple cut NT support for shake, and were planning on switching to Rayz. When they heard that Apple bought SG, they didn't seem to have another program to run to. Sure, combustion is great, but it's target market isn't the same.

It makes sense to me as well in a way..... although I'm not too sure what the differences in capabilities are between Shake and Rayz....... maybe Apples intention is to drop Rayz into the AE and Combustion price frame to make it competitive at that level.... as indeed Rayz is currently not in the same market as these two.......... so maybe they're thinking of the uses for Rayz being more broadcast tv... and Shake for the film industry......... who knows...... actually do we even know if Apple has definitely bought it yet??

As Scottgfx said though.... the real interesting developments are going to be what Apple does with it's hardware....... particularly this super-graphics card that is rumoured........ and for this kind of work, with HDTV etc..... you need serious horsepower....... so I'm inclined to think that Apple must have some serious hardware in the offering....... maybe taking the Discreet route, and coming up with dedicated hardware solutions for high end DV and post work.....

Bring it on......

dantec
Jun 9, 2002, 02:10 PM
It makes sense to me. Apple is buying out the competition.

It's as if Apple bought out Real, because it created competition for Quicktime...

If you ask me, both will be integrated together. Who knows, maybe one will end up becoming a free iApp... :)

iGav
Jun 10, 2002, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by dantec
It makes sense to me. Apple is buying out the competition.

It's as if Apple bought out Real, because it created competition for Quicktime...

If you ask me, both will be integrated together. Who knows, maybe one will end up becoming a free iApp... :)

I don't think Apple are about to turn a $10k piece of software into a free iApp........ :p

Buying out the competition is all good and well..... but Apple should probably remember that the PC industry is more than capable of the same....... I just know how annoyed I would be, if my favourite app's were bought up by a PC company and support stopped for the Mac........

But hey...... still... bring it on...... :D

etoiles
Jun 12, 2002, 04:46 PM
It is official...
http://www.silicongrail.com/

(WELCOME TO SILICON GRAIL

Apple has acquired technologies from Silicon Grail, including the RAYZ and Chalice product lines.)

Archer
Jun 13, 2002, 02:06 AM
Do you guys recall Apple purchasing a small 3d graphics card company(Silicon Valley start up). It was a few years ago, a small blurb I remember on 2-pop I think, it was for the engineers. I never knew what Apple was up to with that tech. With the recent and growing trend of Apple in the high end 2d space that initial purchase may turn out more important than first realized. As I recall it was a high end rather than consumer 3d/graphics card.

Does anyone remember or perhaps find the press release and post it here, I can't seem to find it. I know I'm getting older but I don't think I was dreaming about this purchase, someone help. :rolleyes:

Archer
Jun 13, 2002, 03:00 AM
Found the Apple purchase all the way back in 1999. Apple bought out Raycer. Here's the link (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/7632.html), I think it's important since the recent Apple buys.